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Rasterman leaves RedHat

Hemos posted more than 14 years ago | from the bye-bye-american-fly dept.

Enlightenment 446

poohbear_honeypot wrote in with the full text of Raster's letter to the mailing list, which is below. Essentially, Raster has left Red Hat for greener pastures, and (surprise, surprise) is headed West. He asks that people hold off on e-mailing for the next week or so. For the gory details, click below."From Rasterman on the Enlightenment Mailing List:

Well I thought I'd send this mail out now...

The short and curly:

As of friday the 28th of May I no longer work at Red Hat Software. The story is along ad will be explained sometime later - it's been brewing for months though.

I am now officially unemployed.

I am as happy as chickens in a seed farm.

As of tomorrow , June 1, 1999 I will be leaving North Carolina and moving west. I currently have no other employers.

This is all good for E and E development.

I am so glad to get out of ths creativity-stifling environemnt of RHAD LABS - away from certain people there who see E and its userbase as what I can literally quote them saying a "festering crowd".

I've tolerated this attitude towards E users for way too long. I do not envisage much future support from Red Hat for Enlightenment - they have been itching to get rid of E and will as soon as they can. I don't much care. They can do whatever they like - and I wish them all the best but I do not fit in there. E does not fit in there. They want a windows clone distribution and OS. I do not. They don't believe users really count - corporates and "partners" count and what they percieve as the "business world that wants an exact windows clone" counts.

I am not advocating changing distribtuions, but I am saying that this is onyl good for E - I will be freed up to concentrate on it and associated projects (that includes working on X and extensions to X). This also means i will be able to develop E free of GNOME. E is NOT GNOME's Window Manager - GNOME does not have one. Infact E will be workign to becoming its own desktop shell (I separate Desktop and Desktop Shell here for a reason) in its own right as time moves on - but unlike GNOME I won't make a vaporware publicity stunt out of it until there's something concrete there. E is getting on and a lot of important backend code is in place. After a few more necessary features it will start to grow into a desktop shell (a desktop shell is what I term the combination of Filemanager, Window manager and a Panel app launcher and an "applet/dock" holder). This means E is independant of whatvere desktop apps you use - you can use KDE apps, GNOME apps, GTK apps, X apps, Motif apps, CDE apps - whatever apps you like - but your desktop shell will be consistent and configurable to exactly how you want it. You alreayd knwo E's memory footprint is pretty small - especialyl compared to those of gnome and KDE (when you add the memory use of all the applets, panels, programs, wm etc. of each they add up to much much much more than E). E can absorb much of the functionality of these with very little overhead since it's already got the backend code there in E. Once the desktop shell for E is compleyte, debugged, optimised and so on E will hit 1.0 - but I'mnto setting a time limit on this - this happens when it's done and not before.

If you want to help: sit tight and stick to E - send good feedback and bug reports - We DO listen to them. Send patches to E if you want features. When the new dock applet apiu is done you can all scrutty off and write 5000 loadmeters, cd pplayers etc for E's new dock applet api (yes non square 64x64 dock apps - any size, anywhere (in the dragbar, in small windows, on the desktop istelf). all "dock applets" for E will follow the theme of the WM. This has yet to be worked on but will be - as well as adding in the iconbox again (that comes first).

Expect E to go far.

For the next week I'll be driving across the USA so dont' expect much response from me - after that I'll be moving into a new home, but therafter expect things to move along again.

I do hope we are doing things right by the majority of e users out there. You are my priority - not commerical interests, not political games, not a windows clone, not GNOME, not KDE - users come first. Those that help wiht the project get their wishes often done sooner than others becuase there aren't many working on E.

Here's to a bright future for Enlightenemnt and for all who use it.

-- --------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --------------------
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) raster@rasterman.com Raster's Page raster@linux.com "

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446 comments

Re:That's the problem with RedHat and VAResearch (3)

Mandrake (3939) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873305)

that's not true at all.
In fact, I work on enlightenment at VA.

--
Geoff Harrison (http://mandrake.net)
Senior Software Engineer - VA Linux Labs (http://www.valinux.com)

gtkwm, or, where has my reply link gone? (4)

scrytch (9198) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873307)

Anyhow, E's look is nice and all, but gnome's outright refusal to adopt a window manager has annoyed me to no end. I change gtk, I have to change gnome separately. Gtk and gnome never look quite like they match up, and of course there's a whole new drawing layer on it.

As for Kwm (Raster does talk about E in KDE after all), it uses Qt as its toolkit. Same idea as mwm using motif. The window menus and root menus and such, they're KDE menu objects (derived from Qt). No wheels reinvented here.

In the gnome app list, I see a gtkwm that aspires to do the same, but it appears to be forever vaporware. Could some enterprising soul who knows window managers perhaps take up this project? It's ridiculous to have a window manager represent a code fork from a desktop environment.

As for reply links ... I simply have no link to reply to this article, and the moderator dropdowns show up inlined. kfm seems to be awful funny with forms... So anyhow I'll piggyback my reply to someone famous, hopefully it won't be moderated down :)

Re:Red Hat's clone goal (1)

w00p (39331) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873310)

just my 2 cents...
personally, I think that in the world of linux, no standards are imposed on anyone. i use RPMs because they are convenient, not because i have to. i have seen plenty of things to download in .deb format, but that would require downloading something else to unarchive it, and im sure the majority of the people are just too lazy to do it.

Red Hat's clone goal (3)

ywwg (20925) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873317)

For all those who were worried about Red Hat becoming the next Microsoft, their fears seem to be at least partly justified. If their goal is to create an "exact windows clone," and they consider businesses better friends than users, it suddenly becomes clear why fvwm95 is their default WM even though it sucks.

My only hope is they don't force standards on us. For all those who say that isn't going to happen, just look at RPMs. Who distributes using DEBs?

Maybe Corel will get it right?

Re:Red Hat comes to their senses. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873326)

eh? not stable?

i use cvs version of both gnome and E. my opinion: stable. if they can both stay running for weeks of constant use, i'd say that's pretty good. every two to three weeks i rebuild gnome/E from cvs and i rarely have any issues, when i do, i can usually fix the code in a snap and i'm off and running again.

E isn't the bloated nightmare some say it is. that's FUD. i like it, i love it, i want more of it.

imo, i think RH is catering too much to the m$ windows crowd and train of thought.

i work in multiple corporate environments and for personal workstations, just about EVERY person wants to have their desktop laid out the way -they- want it, not a standard generic one size fits all. even the `blonde' secretaries.

most people in the companies i've contracted for have seen different WMs and usually they are awed by the versatility of E. i think it's awesome to walk into a big blue presentation where they're supposed to awe you with there stuff and they stand around oohing and ahhing over your WM.

-i- don't want a m$ windows clone. -i- don't want a one size fits all. i want E.

i can run E on my measily little 486 laptop with 24megs. you live with your eye candy of choice. choice being the operative word. imo, E is the best.

i stand firmly behind Raster and E.

David
aka Blu3Viper
(don't feel like login and don't feel like markup)

Re:a good thing? (1)

Lennie (16154) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873329)

Aren't both KDE and GNOME based on CORBA...
and E too..
but, they just don't work together all that well... or something .... right ?

Re:Interesting. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873347)

He also talked about the GNOME publicity stunt. We all suspected this but it's interesting that someone actually admitted this was planned.

IMHO, he simply got tired of the politics.

Re:Who cares? ...Next! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873349)

There are thousands of great programmers out there...

Re:a good thing? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873350)

Frankly with both Gnome and KDE i use Wmaker,
E! is way too slow and memory eater, a window
manager should be a window manager not an eye candy.
Frankly i dont know if linux needs yet another
desktop environment, i think two is well enough.
Desktop environments should mean integration
between apps, and with 50 different desktops this
is gonna be really difficult ( maybe they should
be based on CORBA ?).

Humble KDE (0)

sterwill (972) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873353)

Matthias Ettrich wrote [kde.org] : With abiword and gnumeric there are now two overhyped gtk projects that both have a far superior counterpart in the KDE office suite.
...
Without wanting to discourage you: Do you really think that's worth it? I mean, Abiword right now can't do even half of what kword can do! Why fiddle around with these over-hyped C-sources without functionality, if kword is nicer designed, more powerful and object-oriented?

I don't know if I would call that "laying on the warm fuzzies." Please browse these list archives [kde.org] more. Cooperation does not appear to be one of Matthias's strong points, I would say.

But at least he knows exactly what users want most in a word processor: object oriented design!

Re:Packages? (1)

HappyHead (11389) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873354)

Did it occur to you that these packages were meant for use with said distribution, and would not require "downloading something else" to install them?

Did it occur to you that he might have been using a different distribution than debian? That would mean he would have to either download/install something else to install .deb packages, or else he would have to download/get/install the Debian distribution, which still qualifies as something else. You can, after much effort get rpms to work even with old slackware installations, so there isn't any reason to even believe that he's a RedHat customer.

If I was using Debian on any of my systems, I'd probably use the .deb packages, but I don't, and I can't be bothered going to the effort of installing another package manager when there's .tar.gz available.

Re:The beginning of the end...? (5)

Scola (4708) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873357)

I've noticed a number of instances where KDE has really had a different culture than GNOME or E, which has led to a different attitude to from the project:

1. Core KDE developers *never* rip on opposing projects. They attempt to intergrate. I'm sure everyone remembers when KDE anounced Version 1.0 of GNOME promenantly on its webpage.

2. No publicity stunts. The software's done when it's done. 1.1.1 took forever to get out, but when it was out it worked really well. In fact KDE folks are currently debating whether they should try to pre-release more official stuff in order to generate interest. For example, the koffice daily snapshots won't generate the type of interest a Koffice-0.3 would.

3. No central cultish leader. Sure it's nice to have what ESR described as the "benevilent dictator", the Linus or the Larry Wall. However, neither Miguel or Rasterman fill this role particularly well. They have the dictator thing down, but not the benevilence. Sometimes, I'd say the FreeBSD/XFree/Apache model of just a bunch of developers works pretty well.

Just some observations about the way Open Source software works in different cultures.

Re:Interesting. (2)

symlink (18806) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873358)

It didn't seem to me that Raster wrote anything bad about Redhat in his message. He only stated that he felt his creativity was stifled. I challenge anyone who has worked under another person not to say the same.

I totally agree (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873359)

Man you must be reading in my head :)
I agree with you at 100%

Re:Youc could see this coming a mile away ... (2)

bergie (29834) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873362)

where Miguel essentially said he thought E was a piece of sh*t

Actually, your description of the article seems fairly familiar, altough I am quite sure it was not Miguel behind the sentence.

Now that I think about it, it was an article titled "The Mad Hatters" by some US newspaper. I guess you'll find the link from GNOME.org [gnome.org] 's news archives.

(Checking for it, it might be that Frederico could've been interpreted to have said that in the interview, which actually wasn't about GNOME but rather the RHAD labs).

--

--

Re:heh (2)

RandomFreq (13330) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873364)

According to redhat, they upped the price to deal with the fact that pretty much well everyone who bought a boxed set wanted more technical support than what was previously offered.

Technical support is *very* expensive, especially when you have a high demand for it.

Microsoft, on the other hand, upped the price for either greed, and/or to make it seem like its a "better deal".

Just wait till microsoft moves to a per term licensing scheme like everyone else(ie, Sun, Compiler companies, etc)

Re:Best of luck to you Carsten! (1)

RandomFreq (13330) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873369)

Phht. Again? Didn't you do this once before?

*wave* good luck raster. Somehow I knew corp. culture isn't something that could change you =)

Later.
Vince, aka 'Random'
Ps. I'm too lazy to login too.

Re:Youc could see this coming a mile away ... (1)

gavinhall (33) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873375)

Posted by shaver@netscape.com:

Since when does Miguel work at or for Red Hat?

Just what is "Enlightenment" relative to "Gnome"? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873381)

Just what is "Enlightenment"? Does Gnome require it? Can Enligtenment be extended to do what Gnome does? [Sorry in advance to moderators who think this is a dumb question]

Re:Red Hat comes to their senses. (4)

Mandrake (3939) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873397)

"more stable" ?
"lighter" ?
most people who say these types of things don't know much about enlightenment. it doesn't hog memory unless you tell it to, and it certainly doesn't crash all the time like people tend to assume it does.

--
Geoff Harrison (http://mandrake.net)
Senior Software Engineer - VA Linux Labs (http://www.valinux.com)

Re:business culture (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873403)

Maybe he needed a job? Maybe he thought it would help out his users? Im glad he is supporting his users and has good plans for the future. IMHO Red Hat is starting to look more like windows, look at its new desktop, E + Gnome. I wouldnt mind the support that windows has for hardware but when it comes to a desktop, no way.

GNOME will be next? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873405)

I do not envisage much future support from Red Hat for Enlightenment - they have been itching to get rid of E and will as soon as they can.

GNOME will be next out the door, unless they get the stability issues resolved fast. COL 2.2, SuSE 6.1, Slack 4.0, and Mandrake 6.0 are all using KDE 1.1.1; don't expect to see Red Hat piss away their competitive advantage waiting for GNOME to mature.

Re:WHAT GNOME publicity stunt? (1)

jirka (1164) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873407)

What the $#@! does this have to do with RedHat. However I don't think it was such a bad idea. Remember the 2.0.0 linux kernel? was that a publicity stunt? Same thing here. The betas weren't tested enough and most bugs came to light afterwards. Because we released 1.0 that early we now have a stable enviroment, which we might not have had had we not released. GNOME != RedHat, remember that. RedHat may suggest certain things, but ultimately it is not their decision.

Redhat DOES care about the average JOE LINUX USER (1)

Raja_The_TiGeR (19445) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873412)

Basically All I would like to say is the Redhat does care about end users, for example redhat has setup mailing lists for users to colloborate and solve problems... redhat employs a few people (i.e hartr@redhat.com) that helps people out with problems... they distribute their version of the linux os for free on the website... they support the use oss (open source software).. They sent 6 geeks on a vacation in a beachhouse... I for one enjoy redhat and love redhat.... Raster just needs to cool off a bit... that mexican (alfrado or whatver his name is (gnome dude) is a wierdo too.....

Raja

I find this all rather unfortunate. (5)

Kestrel (1301) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873432)

I have been trying to get my college to start using Linux on the desktops for some time now, with almost no success. We have all Linux servers, and the geeks use it, but we can't make any sort of dent in the regular desktop users.

I was rather pleased to see how Gnome was coming along because I don't rather fancy the look of KDE, although that is what I have been using for the computer labs because it is the most complete system at this point.

Raster is correct in that E and Gnome are two different beasts. That is the problem. In giving out Red Hat 6.0 CDs to Linux newbies, I have found that they all get incredibly confused by the fact that the level of complexity of Gnome is compounded by a factor of two because of the fact that one must configure the window manager and gnome (sorta like matching your shirt and trousers).

I think that Red Hat was trying to push E towards being "Gnome's window manager" simply because that is what the most people out here would really really like to see. Gnome fills in the gaps that E leaves rather well, and truth be known, I think that a total integration would make the most sense. Insisting that Gnome be "non window manager specific" is just plain insane on their parts: it NEEDS to be or will forever have that dual configuation hell.

Despite what might be best for Red Hat, or what the most people want, absorbing E into Gnome most certainly isn't Rasterman would want. I can see why he would feel this way. People do open source software not for the money, but for the glory. There is precious little glory having your work buried into another project.

So, unfortunately, this shows one of the major weaknesses of Open Source. Because the modivation is notority, it lends itself to programmers whose egos can dictate more than what might be good for the community. Raster meantions that he is motivated by user input, but from what I have seen with the people I have tried to introduce Linux to, an integrated Gnome/E would be the most preferable path to take. While really really pretty, Enlightenment has always been the least usable window manager in any incarnation.

Admittedly, I don't know what might have gone on inside Red Hat, so I apologise to Rasterman if these comments have sounded overly critical, and certainly neither I nor anyone else should have the right to dictate the course of your life. But I must say that I am disappointed to see that we are less likely to see a more integrated Gnome/E and very disappointed that the change could not have been done in a more gentlemanly manner.

Surely this will provide a dividing line for the community and a oil tankers worth of fuel for the flame war that will follow.

Re:a good thing? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873440)

Berlin, CORBA 2 ORB, DOM, MesaGL, Unicode.. huh ?
http://www.berlin-consortium.org
http://www.uk .research.att.com/omniORB

Now who owns E? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873442)

Since Raster worked for Redhat and coded on Enlightenment and other things.. who owns E now? If he worked on it for ONE second it's Redhat's property unless he had it among other things exempted in his contract..

So .. who owns E now?

(Note... I'm not referring to license. It's still under GPL. I'm referring to COPYRIGHT. If I worked on something on company pay, the company owns it unless they say otherwise.)

J

Heh. WWW.redhat.com (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873448)

Interesting :)

Slashdot on Redhat telling Redhat of Raster's leaving. Breeds a whole new level of irony, doesn't it? You'd think they'd have something up somewhere dispelling it ?

Now, that brings me to part two.. Slashdot, you have GOT to do research into these things. It'll be the death of the Linux community if you keep going half-cocked trying to scoop everyone. Get a damn journalistic grip and research. Maybe Raster is leaving, maybe he's not. So what has your article done? Shown cracks.

Great job :)

Jarrod

Re:Red Hat comes to their senses. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873452)

If only Qt would suck less...

What is it about Qt that you don't like?

I got a copy of "Programming with Qt" from O'Reilly , and I'm diggin it.

Debian? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873459)

Maybe he'll join the debian project. It's certainly less corporate, and the people are very friendly. And it's not in NC, it's global.

business culture (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873460)

coulda saved himself a bit of trouble
if he'd checked out their culture before
he joined up.

dont you think?

I thought.. (1)

suprax (2463) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873471)

I thought I heard that E was slowly going to become the default window manager for RedHat. I guess this isn't true now, but what happened? Or was this just a rumor I heard somewhere.

This is a self fulfiling prophesy (2)

akintayo (17599) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873472)

If you keep saying it you will eventually believe it and then it will come through. The Linux community will change as it grows, but GNOME KDE and all the other projects can coexist. Look how GNU and Linux combine nicely, despite differences in opinions. Such disagreements are to be expected, but they are not the end of the world. As long as the ideal is bigger than the differences we are okay.

another RHAD employee (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873484)

You are correct. I also read the article (or one like it), and it was another RHAD employee that said he was tempted to rewrite E because he didn't like the was Raster coded.

Re:Red Hat's clone goal (1)

doodzed (35795) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873487)

"For all those who were worried about Red Hat becoming the next Microsoft"

Redhat GPLs all work and will therefore not become the next Microsoft as long as they keep up this policy. If you don't like it, take their distribution and fix its faults or develop something better.
In my view SuSe is much worse as a "feature" of their distribution is a propriatary piece of software, YAST. If they were to ever become the standard distribution they would have complete control. Therefore it is RedHat or Debian or Mandrake for me.
Piotr

Is this for real? (His page seems to refute it) (5)

wtpooh (15154) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873489)

Has anyone confirmed that this is real? On rasterman's page ( www.rasterman.com/raster/ [rasterman.com] ) he writes:
Tue May 4 22:54:17 EDT 1999

OK OK.. The following article here [linuxnewbie.org] Is garbage - I never wrote it, posted it, said it or anything. I don't have a girlfriend... (sux eh?) I live on the 3rd floor, not the 2nd, my computer does all it needs, I haven't given any notice to Red Hat about leaving in any way or form - nor am I intending to, Red Hat is just fine - it's not becoming a huge microsoft, E is NOT dead - damnit.. I'm still patching stuff and am adding features (just been sick for the last week with a flu - thus a bit slow), and no - not all my knowledge is computer based. I can speak German and French pretty well, can paint and draw. Hell it was posted at 6:26pm - I was at the Durham Ball park watching a baseball game with other Red Hat employees at that time. So whoever was so childish as to go posting this complete piece of FUD and GARBAGE I think now would be a good time to come clean and admit it and fix it. I DON'T like people masquerading as me - It's not nice to do it, not gentlmanly, not mature and not intelligent. I have very little respect for such childish behavior. If I have anything to say I'll say it HERE on MY pages at rasterman.com - not at some site I've never heard about until today. (my emphasis) Now back to doing useful stuff, like code... and looking for a girlfriend.... :)

There is no entry on his page that he is leaving RedHat. However, he DOES say that he is moving to California:

Sun May 30 17:51:28 EDT 1999

Pack pack pack pack... I'm packing... wow - my room is almost empty... only the last essentials remain in it - computer, stereo and chair and a suitcaseof clothes... Tuesday morning I'm leaving this god forsaken land they call North Carolina and driving west... and I'm loving the idea.

In fact I'm never coming back... I'm leaving North Carolina for good and moving... Goodbye sweet Chapel Hill. Adios My dear RTP. I'm so happy to get out! Welcome California sunshine, California girls, California countryside, Real Cities, Supermarkets that sell liquor.

I'll be driving west from Chapel Hill via I-40 then heading to St Louis, then off to Denver, via Salt Lake City, and finally arriving in the Bay area, Northern California. I'm looking forward to seeing America.

Fri May 28 12:59:15 EDT 1999

Don't mail me! :)

Next week I'm going to be gone and completely out of contact - I'm taking a long trip across the country, so if you expect a reply to your mail.. um.. well then.. don't.

So, we know for sure that he is leaving North Carolina, but not that he is quitting RedHat. Can anyone verify more than this? Was his post signed?

divergent goals (5)

esacevets (26712) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873492)

I met Carsten once, at the 1998 Linux Expo (and what a blast that was). He struck me as a highly creative mind, with a desire to create software that is innovative above all else.

RH, it seems, wants to target the mainstream user. Simplicity is their goal.

Both are great goals. But these are divergent goals. it is sad to hear of the sniping and infighting in RH. But, perhaps, this is more proof the the Linux Revolution (tm) is in full swing. This simple software can be stretched into countless directions. In essence, this CAN be a good thing for us all.

Good luck, Raster. I will keep your RH business card as a collector's item.

JL Culp

What Linux is about, was Re:Choking down one's ego (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873493)

Linux isn't about marketing and making $, Linux is about what we want it to be. Linux is winning for a variety of reason, some of the more prominent being stability, free source, and choice.

i -don't- like anything that looks like m$ windows. i don't like the interface.

David
aka Blu3Viper

Sounds good to me (1)

Tenzin (24419) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873495)

I think this may be what Raster needs to be able to work in an environment conducive to his sort of 'maverick' creativity. As for the future of E and Gnome, I like them both and use them together. My only complaint is stuck with having two 'control panels' and two themes. I think Raster's track record for creating intuitive and eye-catching tools tells us that his panel, etc., will be awesome. I can't wait. Good luck, Raster, and welcome to the left coast.

Real news. (3)

Rahga (13479) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873496)

Mandrake said he does not presently have a job.
And as far as most of you should be concerned, raster has said of GNOME-vs-KDE
"I wish people would quit fighting and start coding."
Quit wasting your breath, people, and get a life. Start making your own stuff, most of this chatter is useless. Find a better way to waste breath :)

[offtopic] Re:Packages? (2)

rcw-work (30090) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873497)

You can install debian packages on any machine with tar, gzip, and ar. No dpkg is needed. Try 'ar x file.deb' sometime.

Re: Choking down one's ego (3)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873504)

"Most European cathedrals show differences in plan or architectural style between parts build in different generations by different builders... Against these, the architectuaral unity of Reims stands in glorious contrast... As the guidebook tells us, this integrity was achieved by the self-abnegation of eight generations of builders, each of whom sacrificed some of his ideas so that the whole might be of pure design. The result proclaims not only the glory of God, but also His power to salvage fallen men from their pride."

Fred Brooks
The Mythical Man-month

Re:Is this for real? (His page seems to refute it) (2)

Avatar/X (25131) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873506)

The bit about "the following article is garbage" is in reference to a post on linuxnewbie claiming to be him (about a month ago).
-------
Losing your faith is a lot like losing your virginity

RedHat in California (2)

Nessak (9218) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873511)

For all it's worth, I distinctly remember reading about Redhat opening a satellite branch in California. It would make a lot of sense for him to be moving out west to work in the new Redhat office. Then again, he might really be leaving redhat, but if this is the case I would imagine he would say something about it directly, and before he just packs up and leaves.

Re:Miguel doesnt work for Red Hat silly (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873518)

Miguel also has his own company http://www.gnome-support.com/

Re:Is this for real? (His page seems to refute it) (5)

Filgy (2588) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873519)

Raster was in #e the other night talking to us all about leaving RH. It is confirmed from his mouth (err.. fingers.. >:))

Not surprising. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873527)

Redhat's vision definitely makes sense from
a business point-of-view. I never even got why
Redhat promoted E so much before when it is
supposed to be for 'advanced' users, e.g. theming
not simple.

Though on the other hand, after using MS Office97
to view some document in school today I have to
say that Microsoft can't design GUIs for life.

What's up at Red Hat (5)

ghjm (8918) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873529)

Red Hat is in the middle of a conversion from a small, tightly-integrated company with a strong shared vision of its beliefs and values, to a larger firm, a notable industry player, with dissenting versions of what its vision should be.

No doubt there are people at Red Hat who think that producing a Windows-clone user interface is the best way to going beyond the early adopters and penetrating the majority market. No doubt there are also people at Red Hat who think that the whole point of the exercise has been to build something different from Microsoft's offerings and that if you're just going to turn the product into a Windows-clone, why bother? No doubt there are even people at Red Hat who don't care a great deal about these issues, and just want to do their job and pick up a paycheck.

This is normal.

I'm not saying that I agree with everything Red Hat is doing; in fact, I have had serious issues with Red Hat for a couple years now. But this item is not one of them. We can only expect to hear more and more dissent from inside Red Hat, and this is good--it means they are maintaining transparency. We as users and customers want to know what's going on inside the company, and that means sometimes we will see some dirty laundry aired. Let's try to be mature about it.

-Graham

Re:Not surprising. (2)

Me2v (12239) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873531)

bah. It's one person's opinion, and the posted letter was refuted by Raster, anyhow. He may be moving West, and he may be leaving RH as confirmed in an IRC channel (FWTW), but another person *did* post a paste from his Website refuting the inflammatory comments made in a spurious and fraudulent post.

Personally, I like Redhat. I'm not sure *how* much they are getting for 6.0, but mine was free. Gotta love the Internet! ;). Redhat is good for Linux. Debian is good for Linux. SuSe is good for Linux (isn't it?). Etc., etc.

I see Redhat as trying to satisfy requested needs/wants from various and sundry users. If more of their users are corporate customers, then it stands to reason that the flavor would have a decidedly corporate taste. If you don't like the way it tastes, go eat something else. There aren't any chains holding anybody down at a particular table...

As far as Desktop environments go, again, each to his own. My favorite is Window Maker + GNOME. Someone else's is KDE. Again, others are just happy with twm. We're all about diversity, and it's a good thing.

Re:WHAT GNOME publicity stunt? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873533)

GNOME 1.0 was released not quite ready for prime time so that it could be announced during Linuxworld Expo.

Re:Packages? (1)

Scola (4708) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873534)

Do both of you just believe in the "my distribution does this type of package management, thus it must be right". Personally I chose the method of package management (encap - http://encap.cso.uiuc.edu) first, then chose and/or contructed the system to match.

Ummm, no. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873535)

You wish. RH folks have too much heart and soul and $$$$ in GNOME. If you hang out with them on IRC you will soon see what I mean, but alas I feel it is not appropriate for me to elaborate here.

a good thing? (0)

fLaSc (22259) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873539)

i think so. i'm not too sure what raster did at RH labs, but i think that one of the most important parts of the Linux desktop is Enlightenment, and if it does turn into a useable `Desktop Shell' i'll certainly use it as preference over GNOME (i don't even consider KDE as an option at this time).

i hope this desktop environment lives up to what i hoped KDE and GNOME would be - usable, with Enlightened configuration and customization. i don't want a two-panel Finder, i want a single pane window (like RISC OS' filer); i don't want an integrated browser, i want to double-click my files. more importantly, though, i want to have the choice to do this or not. hopefully Enlightenment will give me it.

Miguel doesnt work for Red Hat silly (3)

Alan Cox (27532) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873544)

Miguel and the control of Gnome all reside outside of the Red Hat world. Miguel works for unam, who afaik don't have anything to do with E development or have an official policy on it.

Alan

Re:Red Hat comes to their senses. (1)

andreas (1964) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873549)

Well, it _did_ crash for me the last time I tried. But I only blame software for crashing when it's version number is above 1.0. You get what you deserve when you try a version DR0.15 ;).

I'm using KDE here, and it's rock stable. If only Qt would suck less...

E might also do fro me (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873558)

For the last 10 (or more) years I have not been a diehard X users. There was not much point to use X . I have been shopping for a new wm lately, and the way Rastarman described his shell, I thing E is probably for me. As for the MS Windows
clones, the ones that even grandmother can use, who cares, I assume there are finer things in life.

Choking down one's ego (4)

pingbak (33924) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873566)

I'm not sure why there's always been an anti-biz slant to just about every one of these divorces. Sometimes, and I've been there and done that, one has to do code which productizes software.

Overall, I think RH is on the right track to making Linux (or broadly, Unix, since most Linux apps will run on other x86 Unix platforms) usable for the masses. Yes, it means "selling out" to "the corporates" -- but it's not selling out, per se. The reason why mediocrity has 90% of the users out there is because it has an incredible marketing machine (and really crafty contract writers.) Part of the RH strategy is to give the ordinary (dare I say, mediocre?) users something they're familiar with... and then be completely subversive by introducing changes that get them on the road to something more useful (UI-wise, application-wise, etc.)

While I appreciate and try to code to perfection too, there's a point at which the code has to be released and shipped. Usually companies have two sets of coders: one which creates the features and the "cool stuff" and another set which productizes. It seems to me that RHAD combined the two, pissed off one of their developers, and now we all get to hear about the bad blood.

Personally, I hope there's an opening when I finish this degree at RHAD. The important lesson is to choke down one's ego when it's appropriate.


-scooter

thanks for replying (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873568)


is taking a job that you hate really worth it
if you can easily get another job elsewhere?
i bet if he carefully researched the corporate culture of RedHat
he could have seen ahead of time that it wouldn't fit him.
yes? no? ps this has nothing to do with the technology its
a question about corporate culture and personality matching.

Re:Red Hat's clone goal (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873574)

fvwm95 is no longer the default. E/Gnome with a win95-like theme is (it's still 95-ish, just gnomeified). The first thing I do when I install RH6 is change the theme to something else.
--------
I (McKing) didn't feel like looking for my password and logging in

Re:Choking down one's ego (5)

j_edge (20712) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873580)

I think you miss the point though that it's not RedHat's project to "productize". I thought it was a good thing when RedHat hired Raster. I don't particuliarly care for the company itself, but I thought that the fact they were hiring coders to work on their own "free software" projects was really cool. I didn't know that they would try and dictate the direction he would take with it, though. That is not for them to do, being as it's not their software to do it with.

Let me put it another way. Let's say a band you like is on a small label, and playing a certain style of music, and suddenly they sign a lucrative recording contract. If their music were to change from corporate pressure (tone down the lyrics, or make it more "Top 40'ish"), they would have sold out. It is very much selling out. They would have changed what they had been doing not because they wanted to, but to make the company that was paying them happy (and rich).

Personally, I am really happy that Raster didn't sell out. Besides being able to respect his integrity, I think the community is much better off with Raster coding what he likes & bringing his contributions back to the community, and Red Hat either hiring someone to code their GNOME-compliant Win9x-style interface that they want to appeal to the masses or go back to using fvwm95 or whatever.

How many people would be upset if Alfredo was being paid to work on Window Maker, but one day the corp. that writes his paycheck thought it would be a good idea that would help new users by changing the GNUStep logo in the top of the dock to a "talking, help-giving paperclip"(tm) :). The only difference is WM is modelled after a specific environ so it would be immediately obvious, but with E the specs are all in Raster's head and if the company that's paying him is telling him to go against the direction he wants it to go, that is a bad thing.

Keep up the good work, Raster, Mandrake, Alfredo, Miguel & the _COUNTLESS_OTHERS_ who spend YOUR time creating software and sharing it with us. And thank you.

j-E

Re:Debian? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873584)

My god..

Look at all the zeros. :)

J

Packages (1)

sterwill (972) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873587)

Encap is a very useful tool, and it's partly how my current system is managed. I don't use a "distribution" at home, but I do use Debian at work--it's a mighty fine piece of work. It's great being able to do "apt-get install [package]" and have it done within 5 seconds. Of course things are different at home where I don't have a T1; most all my software gets installed by way of EGCS, GNU make, and cp.

It's about time I re-install at home anyway, and it will most definitely be a distribution a friend has been packaging for the last few months. It's up-to-date, complete, and I know the packaging system well (Encap is your friend) enough to do any installation or removal myself, cleanly, and easily.

Hoax (1)

jcrosby (42052) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873594)

Consider this : If you wanted to make waves in the Linux community (target the process rather than the product) you might want to post something such as this letter while you were sure that the sender would not be around a network connection. Hmm....

This could leave the Linux community up in the air for a while to start arguments, etc.

Perhaps all of this is true, but it could also be a product a well know anti-Linux company.

Re:GNOME publicity stunt? (5)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873595)

Why do you think that this is the truth? This is one persons view of things. How much did raster have to do with GNOME? The only think I see is his window manager specs. He most likely did not work well in the RHAD environment because it came time to get some real work done - i.e. - Red Hat Linux 6.0 needed to have a good desktop. raster has never worried about deadlines or backwards compatibility. Just look at how many times theme creaters have to rewrite their themes because of config file format changes.

Furthermore, Red Hat is doing the furthest thing from making a Windows clone. It may be true that they made the Clean theme - the most Windows looking theme - the default in Red Hat Linux 6.0. That decision HARDLY makes Red Hat Linux a windows clone.

Just by saying "unlike GNOME I won't make a vaporware publicity stunt out of it" you've done just that - in saying these things about your co-workers - your colleagues - it shows that raster just didn't fit in. It seems that he had his own agenda and just wasn't a team player in the labs.

Re:Miguel doesnt work for Red Hat silly (2)

Tim Moore (1808) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873609)

I think that it was actually Quartic that made that comment, though. I remember reading this, too, and I'm pretty sure the article was on RHAD.

Re:WHAT GNOME publicity stunt? (1)

zifnab (7590) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873616)

>Them releasing version 1.0 prematurly mabey?

and just during [miracle !] one of the largest
Linux conference ?

seb.
--

gnome-hackers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873617)

Since you appear to be a GNOME insider, please E us as to what happened to gnome-hackers.

--E Fan

Re:Debian? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873618)

And the pay is phenominal!

More Corporate Violation (2)

dface (26059) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873620)

I'm very shocked to hear of such stifling of creativity happening at one of Linux's Corporate leaders. I am especially shocked after the response to comments I made [slashdot.org] about corporate violate of Linux. The responses from the likes of Chris DiBona, mandrake, and Alan Cox were enough to make me believe that companies like RedHat would be supporting movements like Enlightenment.

In the words of Rasterman: "They [RedHat] don't believe users really count - corporates and 'partners' count and what they percieve as the 'business world that wants an exact windows clone' counts."

Is it just me, or is something wrong with this picture?

------

Missing Points (1)

sterwill (972) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873622)

I pulled out an archive message, the content of which was not exactly crucial to my argument. I'm not quite sure what you're saying; "Matthias is just a developer...he is not humble about his code...", but the point of the message I replied to was that the entire KDE team is a group of cooperative and programmers. I assert anyone with five minutes and a web browser can find megabytes of list traffic that, well, hint otherwise.

And what was the last version of AbiWord you compiled? If you had any problems, did you post to the mailing lists? Did you log any bugs through Bugzilla?

I'd like to give KWord a try, but I use free software these days, and for the same reason I don't put Velveeta on my pizza, QT doesn't quite count.

Re:It's probably true (1)

bem (1977) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873629)

I dunno, it also says that if it were true, he'd have posted it on his website. Whatever the case, perhaps it's time to remind people to use GNU Privacy Guard and -sign- their stuff for confirmability.

heh (5)

Nite_Hawk (1304) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873632)

Back when Raster started working at Redhat I was kinda wondering how it would turn out. I'm not terribly surprised to see the outcome, but a bit disappointed in Redhat. I don't use the distribution myself, but with the price raise to $80 for 6.0 (At the local Best Buy anyway), and Raster's comments here, it really seems like they may be headed towards being exactly what so many of us feared. This isn't to say that Redhat is going to become some kind of dictator, but that thier goals as a business, not just succeeding, but excessively growing, seem to be getting higher priority than than just developing cool software.

I understand that making sure you have a good business model is certainly important, but when any company, or even a group of people, target to have a monopoly on the interface to linux, i.e. what a person sees, when they see it, how they interact with it, that strikes me as being rather scary. This is, imho, why Enlightenment seems such a good concept. Provide the backbone to allow any interface, but do everything behind the scenes. Don't market the default interface as the end all. Actively promote diversity to accomplish the best results. I truely hope in the future that linux doesn't simply become the underlying archetecture to propriatary interfaces. Even with opensourced code, the concept of an end-all interface with it's own agenda can be damaging. Unfortunatly, it appears that this is the road that many companies, (and individuals) desire. Hopefully the most open design in the end will win, and that the people who work for companies investing in linux, will not abuse thier positions.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox now, flame away.. ;)

GNOME publicity stunt? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873633)

Infact E will be workign to becoming its own desktop shell (I separate Desktop and Desktop Shell here for a reason) in its own right as time moves on - but unlike GNOME I won't make a vaporware publicity stunt out of it until there's something concrete there.

You are my priority - not commerical interests, not political games, not a windows clone, not GNOME, not KDE - users come first.

Too bad it takes an event like this for the truth to come out. Best of Luck, Raster.

Re:Not surprising. (3)

shutton (4725) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873644)

This really depresses me. I had it in the back of my brain that Red Hat was a good bunch, some folks who made the free software model work. And I'd ignored most of the "is Red Hat turning into the next Microsoft" comments because I figured that was just the nature of their position in the Linux market.



If what Rasterman says about Red Hat trying to push out a Windows clone, that really changes my opinion of them. I hate seeing applications that seek to be exact Windows knock-offs. How can we say that Windows is a bad thing if we just turn around and emulate it? This is the time for rethinking things, lest we become the beast itself.

Re:Red Hat comes to their senses. (1)

RevRa (1728) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873652)

Dude, I've had RH 6.0 installed for a few weeks now & E has crashed on me at least 25 times. I like the way it looks, but the code that shipped with 6.0 is apparently buggy. Same for GNOME, it's dumped core *almost* as many times as E.

They are both much prettier than KDE for sure, and I know they'll get more stable as time goes on. It's just a pain to have to wait. :-)

Anyway, Good luck to Raster, I'm sure he'll land on his feet.

-Randy

A man to be admired. (1)

Cylix (55374) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873655)

Im honestly very proud of Raster. Not many people I know would quit thier job to stand up for what they believe in or to protect a project from corporate slime.

Personally I look forward to any enhancements Enlightenment can bring to an environment which has grown a bit stale.

WHAT GNOME publicity stunt? (1)

gavinhall (33) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873658)

Posted by FascDot Killed My Previous Use:

What is everybody talking about?
--
"Please remember that how you say something is often more important than what you say." - Rob Malda

Re:Youc could see this coming a mile away ... (5)

miguel (7116) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873668)

You got your references wrong Dude.

It was not me trying to rewrite E, probably someone else, but not me. As far as I care, I only care about the application framework and the applications.

The window managers never quite excited me, so I doubt it was me.

The only code I want to rewrite is Imlib, because Imlib 1.xx has serious memory management issues. So we are going to base our new image code in Raph Levien's code.

Hope this clears up your confussion.

Miguel.

Interesting. (4)

Donnie Barnes (4674) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873671)


Interesting commentary indeed.

I wish Raster the best of luck. I'm not sure why he would care to say nasty things about Red Hat, the product, or the people there, though. I don't know anyone at Red Hat who did anything to make Red Hat an unhappy place for him.

Sometimes things just aren't a perfect fit, though, and people have to find that perfect fit. I hope raster finds his. I'm saddened at Red Hat wasn't it.

I also hope that E development continues as it has. I think it's a damned good piece of free software and hope to continue to be able to use it. I also hope it does continue to tie into GNOME nicely. No, it doesn't have to be the GNOME window manager. There can be many. But I like E and I think it fits well.

Anyway, good luck raster.


--Donnie

It's probably true (1)

nd (20186) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873679)

In response to the post above with a reference to Rasterman's website saying it's a hoax, he's referring to something else. If you notice, the date on that post was May 4th. Plus, this letter made no references to what floor he lived on or anything about his girlfriend. So, this is probably a legitimate article.

Re:Rasterman's coding style (1)

symlink (18806) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873684)

Hm. I use E on my home system, which runs 24/7, and I can't remember it crashing since version 0.14 or so. And that was a LONG time ago. Maybe if you left your email address you could get someone more knowledgable to help you get things set up properly. Charles

Re:Is this for real? (His page seems to refute it) (2)

Beauxo (21715) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873685)

>OK OK... The following article here is garbage...

Check the date. May 4!! This has nothing to do with what Raster posted on the e mailing list.

Re:Red Hat comes to their senses. (1)

chkdsk (145) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873689)

I run the CVS version of E as a default window manager here, and I cannot recall a crash yet. The only time it exits on me is when I hit control-alt-backspace (intentionally) and even then it exits gracefully.

Enlightenment is good stuff.
(and you've got to dig the new pagers and config features)

The beginning of the end...? (2)

Sanity (1431) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873692)

Could this possibly be the beginning of the end of harmony in the Linux community - yet we have had the KDE/GNOME scuffles, but the real people behind these projects have always kept their hands clean... until now. We have the Gnome coordinator slagging off KDE, and now one of RedHat software's most visable people leaving RedHat pretty unhappy. Is it really the case that Gnome, despite being GPLd and thus more free-software-friendly, is something of a cancer - in the sense that it is breeding such discord in the Linux community? Up until yesterday (when an upgrade broke it) I was using Gnome and was reasonably impressed with it, although it still needs some work (couldn't persuade it to add new applets to the panels, and is it actually possible to install the RPMs without using --nodeps?). KDE is a good piece of software, but the whole QT issue still worries me a bit, even with the whole QPL thing - I would rather it was GPL. Also I think the interface is a bit too-Windows.

Anyway, what is going on people - is the Linux community loosing its grip?

--

Re:Is this for real? (His page seems to refute it) (1)

wimpy (39015) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873694)

If it's a fake it would actually be a quite intelligent one considering
how it matches raster's style & spelling errors.

Re:GNOME publicity stunt? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873698)

One interesting question that occurs to me... If you want to base a company on free software, are these kinds of tactics justified?

After all, you ARE providing humanity with free software, but on the other end you are engaging in questionable practices to increase your market share so that you can make your living.

Is free software self-sustainable?

Best of luck to you Carsten! (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873699)

Well, (I hope Alfredo doesn't read this), I have finally switched to E for more than 48hrs (insert #E people laughing here). I'm really impressed with how its moving along. I can't wait till he gets cranking on it full time.

all the best,
Yours,
Trae
aka: OctobrX
ps. Yes I'm too lazy to login.

Re:business culture (5)

Alan Cox (27532) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873708)

Try inflicting Enlightenment on your grandmother or using imlib on a 486SX machine. There will always be a difference between end user ease and reliability and the Rastermans flair for the bizarre and incredibly flexible.

Enlightenment is a beautiful toy, if you want to do wild and wonderful things. But to a lot of people the fact that all buttons behave the same way is a feature they like.

Good luck Raster, E may not be the WM everyone uses at work, but its the one everyone uses for shows.

Alan

Better get used to it... (2)

Simon Carr (1788) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873715)

Do you really think the folks here at Slashdot have enough time to research each peice before they put it up? I wouldn't even want them to! It would spell the end of Slashdot as we knew it. Imagine if Rob or Hemos suddenly started to research every scoop that came in, it would be insanity, and I feel is not the function of slashdot. If a story is false, post some feedback, it's what it's all about, the whole CGI BBS thing...

Re:GNOME will be next? (1)

gavinhall (33) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873716)

Posted by majestic1:

This is just my opinion.. but Im not so sure about these stability issues. I originally ran E and GNOME way back when (gnome was in .20 i think?) .. At that time I would agree, it wasn't stable at all. I switched to WindowMaker.. Then a few months ago I thought maybe it was time to try the two out again, so I installed .15 and gnome 1.0.. So far so good. GNOME adds all the functionality I need, and Enlightenment keeps my eyes happy. Maybe it's a huge fluke, but Ive had E and GNOME running for about 40 days so far.. I was under the impression that's a respectable uptime for a workstation?

Re:Is this for real? (His page seems to refute it) (5)

Mandrake (3939) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873718)

yes, it's true. friday was his last day at redhat.
--
Geoff Harrison (http://mandrake.net)
Senior Software Engineer - VA Linux Labs (http://www.valinux.com)

Re:Debian? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873720)

hehehe. I think he said he *didn't* want to be involved in politics. If you subscribe to debian-devel you'll soon find that Debian is very deeply submerged in politics.

Re:I find this all rather unfortunate. (2)

mdemeny (35326) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873725)

As a Linux newbie who installed RH6, maybe I can add my $0.02...

Hell - I didn't even know I had to configure them seperately...or maybe I did and didn't know it. :-p

Anyway...GNOME crashed. Or Enlightenment crashed. Or Netscape crashed. Whomever. They just wouldn't run together on my clunky machine - I don't care whose fault it was.

I switched to FVWM2 and nothing crashes anymore. This makes my happy. E sure looked nice, but I was more concerned with reliability, and FVWM seems to be providing it.

redhat (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873733)

Hmmmm, I don't know what to make of this. I thought it was way cool that he was working for them, but it sounds like redhat is getting big way too fast and is starting to forget about the actual users that made redhat what they are today.

luckily, with linux being what it is, we can freely choose to switch distros, build our own distros, run whatever wm/editor/blah/blah/blah we want. dont get me wrong, I am happy for RedHat, and I currently run RedHat.

I can smell a consipiracy here !! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873736)

I think some hobos from microsoft have planted the seeds of paranoia thereby promoting ill-will among our beloved open source family. :-(

I feel these aforementioned bastards are in the process of systematically trying to breakdown the very foundations of our glorious ever increasing empire !!!!

I urge all comrades to stick together to overcome these winds of hatred sweeping across our beliefs.

Stop these petty bickerings and fight the power.

One day we shall triumph!!

signed,

AnaZaZi !!

Youc could see this coming a mile away ... (2)

ShieldWolf (20476) | more than 14 years ago | (#1873738)

I read an interview with the developers of Gnome where Miguel essentially said he thought E was a piece of sh*t and he kept threatening to re-write it from scratch. How can work in a place that treats you like that? E is a very kewl Window Manager and I was very surprised at how lame the default them for RedHat 6.0 was. Geez it looked just like Windows 95. :(

My $.02

Red Hat comes to their senses. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1873740)

IMO GNOME is carrying around E like an albatross.
It should never have been made the default
window manager. It needs something lighter and
much more stable. Raster is a creative guy, but
a careful coder he aint.

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