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Hotmail To Junk Non-Sender-ID Mail

Zonk posted more than 9 years ago | from the talking-to-yourself dept.

Microsoft 651

William Robinson writes "If your e-mail does not have a Sender ID, Microsoft wants to junk your message. Somewhere after November, MSN and Hotmail will consider it as spam. Sender ID is a specification for verifying the authenticity of e-mail by ensuring the validity of the server from which the e-mail came. Some experts feel that 'Sender ID' is not an accepted standard and has many shortcomings. Some also feel that Microsoft is trying to strong-arm the industry into the adoption of an incomplete and not accepted standard."

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Stop using Hotmail (2, Insightful)

drewzhrodague (606182) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889063)

This means that I will stop using Hotmail -- go figure!

Re:Stop using Hotmail (3, Insightful)

Blindman (36862) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889156)

Not using hotmail is one thing, but it looks like you might not be able to continue sending e-mail to those with hotmail accounts and don't share your view.

Re:Stop using Hotmail (2, Insightful)

Raistlin77 (754120) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889178)

And that's a bad thing? Eventually, Hotmail users will get so pissed off that either Microsoft stops the stupidity or the users go elsewhere.

Re:Stop using Hotmail (2, Interesting)

Cat_Byte (621676) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889287)

You still have a trusted list that will redirect straight to the inbox. This will be the same as I have mine set up now because only people on my list make it to the inbox and the rest is in the junk folder. This is actually a good thing for sites like geneology.com that harvests your family tree and sends email from relatives with the same name (lame). The simple fact is, something has to be done about spam and just because Microsoft has its name attached to it doesn't make it a bad thing. No spam == good.

Re:Stop using Hotmail (2, Funny)

ynohoo (234463) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889215)

Quick check my address book for folks using hotmail... wow, I don't know anybody that stupid. What a relief!

Re:Stop using Hotmail (1)

G-Licious! (822746) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889275)

Most of my hotmail friends are strictly MSN messenger. But screw that, I'm going to recommend them gmail anyways. Soddy Passport service works with it anyways.

Re:Stop using Hotmail (1)

Marcion (876801) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889158)

But how can I block all incoming mail with an autoreply saying that I do not accept hotmail?

Tips for GNU/Linux please.

Re:Stop using Hotmail (1)

generic-man (33649) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889183)

Why bother? Your autoreply is going to get marked as spam unless you support Sender ID.

Nothing wrong with that (1)

anti-NAT (709310) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889312)

Hotmail people will have to check their spam folder so regularly for for things that aren't actually spam that Sender-ID will just annoy them so much that they'll abandon Hotmail. What's the point of spam filters when you have to check each and every email yourself anyway to make sure ?

For this push to adopt Sender-ID to succeed, Hotmail would probably have to be the source of more than 50% of the emails sent on the Internet. I'm pretty sure that is the case.

Ambiguous praise (1, Insightful)

tezbobobo (879983) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889159)

Not one to get caught up in Microsoft bashing, I salute the company. It may not make the best decisions, but it is making decisions. At some point something is going o have to happen to stem the tide of crap floating round the internet. This may not be the best secision, but maybe it will inspire other people to start making decisions. Once again Microsoft has proven itself to be a market leader, even if in bad ideas.

Re:Ambiguous praise (1)

schon (31600) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889222)

At some point something is going o have to happen to stem the tide of crap floating round the internet.

What exactly does this have to do with sender-id?

Neither SPF or sender-id will do *anything* towards stopping spam (or any useless email.)

Re:Ambiguous praise (2, Insightful)

danheskett (178529) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889251)

That's untrue!

It will stop SPAM that is from a forged sender, which is a non-trivial amount.

Meaning, I can't send you a message purporting to be from billgates@microsoft.com, which is how things are right now.

Look over your SPAM headers, and you'll see, most of the return-addresses do not match the machine that relayed the message.

Re:Stop using Hotmail (2, Insightful)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889197)

Time to start handing out those gmail invites.

And then... (1)

It doesn't come easy (695416) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889064)

Once people aren't able to receive email from their friends and family, I predict a mass exit to other free email systems.

Re:And then... (1)

garcia (6573) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889129)

Very true. I really don't see that much e-mail from people on Hotmail anyway. Then again, most of the people I know don't use MSN Messenger either. Obviously people do use it or it wouldn't exist.

GMail and Yahoo could get a huge boost in their userbase from this *or* MSN could gain users as the spam level drops to near zero.

Thing is, do I really want to worry about my GMail storage capacity if more people leave Hotmail in droves? ;)

Re:And then... (1)

log0n (18224) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889181)

Or Hotmail users will start telling people (where everyone is near and dear to each other) so sign up for Hotmail to get their messages.

It could go both ways. People do this all the time with IM.

One little problem: MSN Messenger (5, Insightful)

mindaktiviti (630001) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889266)

MSN Messenger is the crazy glue that holds together the consumer with the hotmail account. I gave all of my friends gmail accounts which are far superior going by interface alone (and they agree with this). However because they use MSN Messenger they almost always prefer to check their hotmail accounts. What Google needs to do to successfully compete with MSN is to release their own messenger program that's tied in with GMail, only then will it be easier to switch your friends over to another free email service.

Well, what were you expecting? (2, Insightful)

Walkiry (698192) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889271)

Microsoft has been using this kind of "embrace and extend" or pure "we implement and damned what everyone says" with their OS for so long, that they have forgotten how to do anything else. They're going to have quite a wakeup call when they try this in a market where they're far from being the main dominant force.

Who uses hotmail? (1, Interesting)

richieb (3277) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889066)

Does anyone besides spammers use hotmail anymore?

Re:Who uses hotmail? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12889128)

My sister's boyfriend does. I don't think he is smart enough to be a spammer.

Re:Who uses hotmail? (5, Interesting)

defkkon (712076) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889175)

Unfortunately, yes.

There are a large number of people who haven't heard of Gmail. These are people who use the Internet to casually browse, and who check their email every other day. Hanging out in the geek community, its hard to believe people don't know their alternatives - but its true!

Many of these people view email as a very set-in-stone thing. Their friends and family all know their Hotmail address, and all their favourite news letters are delivered there. To them, its a huge pain in the arse to switch addresses. Its almost unthinkable.

Its these people that will happily put up with whatever Microsoft does to Hotmail, just so they don't have to bother with all this technical nonsense.

Hotmail has one good feature (1)

Tenebrious1 (530949) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889207)

Does anyone besides spammers use hotmail anymore?

It has the ability to white list. There's an option to send everything into the bulk folder except for mail coming from someone on your address book. Gmail and Yahoo are pretty good with sorting spam and I use them for personal mail. But for conferences and conventions, I use my hotmail address, and white list the few vendors I want to hear from, and all the others I scanned to get swag get routed right to the bulk folder. Great feature, definitely worth keeping one hotmail address.

Re:Who uses hotmail? (1)

diegocgteleline.es (653730) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889284)

Do you know this little thing called "messenger"? You can use any email adress, but 99% of the people who uses messenger uses hotmail.

BTW, many of the "hotmail spam" is not "hotmail spam", it's just normal email with the "from" address faked. Also, hotmail has already been using spam filters for a long time.

I can't seem... (2, Funny)

fyngyrz (762201) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889069)

...to verify where this story came from. I'm sorry, it'll have to be rejected.

Brilliant Move Microsoft. I salute you! (5, Funny)

cmefford (810011) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889070)

Been wanting to get friends to get off the hotmail bandwagon for years. As an isp, I'd be telling my customers to tell their friends who use hotmail to get on the stick and go to yahoo or gmail before november so their ability to communicate isn't cut off. Please note, SenderID and SPF are both bad ideas. SPF didn't start off that way. In fact it made a strange kind of sense. It was co-opted. The IETF marid working group archives are a great place to go read about how MS really helped screw the pooch. Hotmail and MSN orphaning themselves is probably a good thing in the long run. It's a shame though. And yes, I publish spf records, no I do not make use of them. They are not useful.

Re:Brilliant Move Microsoft. I salute you! (1)

MilenCent (219397) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889106)

I agree completely. I haven't been able to shift any of my 50 Gmail invitations since most people are satisfied (read: complacent) with their current webmail, and it's mostly only the cognoscenti who've even heard of Gmail.

Once I'm able to explain why they've suddenly stopped receiving most of their stuff over at Hotmail, it'll be a lot easier to use up those invites.

Re:Brilliant Move Microsoft. I salute you! (2, Informative)

shorti9 (307602) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889187)

it'll be a lot easier to use up those invites.

Unless, of course, hotmail doesn't like gmail's SPF records =)

Re:Brilliant Move Microsoft. I salute you! (2, Informative)

wcdw (179126) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889191)

I disagree that SPF records are completely useless. They do pick off about 1% of my incoming spam.

And if more people would use them, I'd get fewer bogus bounce messages. They're annoying, and it's not that hard to DDoS my mail server by sending out a few zillion messages with known bogus addresses and a forged from address through one's favorite botnet.

People that configure them to 'soft fail', now that's pretty worthless.

Re:Brilliant Move Microsoft. I salute you! (1)

djbckr (673156) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889267)

Let me preface the below with the statement that this is not intended to be a troll...

I realize that this would be a painful/inconvenient move for everybody, but if the end-result is more of what we want, isn't this a good thing?

Never mind the fact that this may be an incomplete standard; I realize that. But standards can be revised. Yes, we're talking Micro$oft here, but if they have the ability to do this when nobody else can, I say it's a Good Thing!

Yes but (4, Funny)

Colin Smith (2679) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889075)

If we all buy Microsoft email servers it will be a standard, won't it.

Re:Yes but (1)

Jaruzel (804522) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889256)

You laugh... but *most* corporate Internet facing email servers ARE Microsoft Exchange Servers, configured as bridge-end servers. Once Exchange goes through an upgrade cycle to, say, version 2006/7 and has SenderID checking enabled by default, then expect to see this adopted at an expediential rate.

Everyone talks about how Linux runs the internet, but the internet is really run by the Businesses, and the Businesses all use Microsoft products.

-Jar.

I don't need Hotmail any more... (1)

pointbeing (701902) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889083)

Now that I've found Mailinator there's no reason for me to maintain a Hotmail account.

Re:I don't need Hotmail any more... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12889272)

Yup, there's no spam at mailinator. [mailinator.com]

Only if other ISPs go along with it (5, Insightful)

matt_morgan (220418) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889088)

This is a trial baloon. If some other big ISPs decide to go along with this, I can see it happening. If nobody else goes along with it, they won't enforce it. No need to panic here.

Big Surprise (4, Interesting)

alvinrod (889928) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889093)

From the article:

"We think Microsoft is trying to strong-arm the industry into the adoption of an incomplete and not accepted standard".

Gee, when's the last time this happened?

Personally, it will only be a matter of time until the spammers figure out a way to get around this. End result: a serious pain for everyone that accomplishes nothing.

Re:Big Surprise (2, Insightful)

schon (31600) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889277)

it will only be a matter of time until the spammers figure out a way to get around this

A way around what, exactly?

Sender-id is *not* an anti-spam measure. It will do absolutely nothing (as in _NOTHING_ ) to stop spam.

All it does is say "this email comes from a server that the owner of the domain says is OK."

How, exactly, does that stop a spammer from sending spam?

Re:Big Surprise (1)

non (130182) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889286)

when's the last time that microsoft did such a thing, turned around a year later saying it was hopelessly broken, and _then_ offered their new and improved overlord mail control system?

Do as I say, not as I do (4, Interesting)

asc4 (413110) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889095)

Despite the fact that Hotmail will only be using SPF v2 records to do the filtering, it seems that Hotmail themselves haven't bothered yet to publish one: http://www.dnsstuff.com/tools/lookup.ch?type=TXT&n ame=hotmail.com [dnsstuff.com]

Good! (1)

mister_llah (891540) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889097)

... well, spammers won't change, so all this will do is convince those who use Hotmail because they've had an account forever or who don't know better... to look for greener pastures... like Yahoo Mail, or perhaps Gmail (if they can get an invite, which isn't hard)...

(or did they remove the invite system yet? hehe)

===

We all know what needs to be done about the spammers... *cocking shotgun* ... I'm not the one to do it, I just enjoy imagining the sound of a cocking shotgun, why are you looking at me?

Re:Good! (1)

JohnnyDanger (680986) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889143)

Somewhere after November, MSN and Hotmail will consider it as spam.

Hear that, Google? Microsoft just gave you a deadline to get Gmail out of beta.

Since my Gmail account (2)

dankasfuk (885483) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889099)

I check my hotmail acct once a week or so...always junk mail. Needless to say I won't be sorry to see it go.

strongarm what? (1, Interesting)

tomstdenis (446163) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889101)

I don't know ANYONE who uses hotmail for more than a throwaway address. So let them have their little party. Who cares?

Tom

Re:strongarm what? (2, Interesting)

hab136 (30884) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889131)

I don't know ANYONE who uses hotmail for more than a throwaway address. So let them have their little party. Who cares?

And Mailinator [mailinator.com] does a better job at throwaway addresses anyways.

Not a big deal. (0, Redundant)

yoder (178161) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889102)

I will just stop sending mail to anyone using Hotmail and MSN.

Problem solved. Next!?

Re:Not a big deal. (1)

Adult film producer (866485) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889152)

exactly.

Re:Not a big deal. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12889182)

Wow I really admire your can-do attitude and I like how you find a simple solution to a complex problem. Good job! You are an obvious leader. I suppose we're all supposed to be amazed at your ability to boil a problem down to it's simplest elements and provide a clear-cut solution. Now, what happens when you NEED to send email to someone using a Hotmail account? You're probably one of the same people that bitch loudly when some web site doesn't support Firefox, "Why would they alienate a group of people like that?!" And here you are with your idiot solution, which is to alienate people.

Re:Not a big deal. (1)

Professeur Shadoko (230027) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889243)

You don't even have to stop !
Your e-mails will be trashed, why bother stopping sending them ? Continue as you did before.

The Problem is patents ! (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12889107)

The problem is, that the experts think, that the patents which MS owns endanger Free implementations of the "standart".

The Average User of Hotmail... (1)

ehaggis (879721) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889108)

...will not be able to make the connection of why they are suddenly not receiving their Hotmail. Nor will they be able to tell Aunt Suzie to use "Sender ID".

Microsoft is losing it's ability to push "standards" and more and more they are bitten by launching stuff like this.

Hmm... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12889109)

"Microsoft is trying to strong-arm the industry into the adoption of an incomplete and not accepted standard."

Again?

and some ar MS player haters (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12889119)

and some .. most open source zealots are just scared microsoft is leaving them behind... microsoft is going to be first to solve a big problem .. but being first means you are an evil monopolist... ahh.. you open source ignorant nerds

Who cares? (1)

Otto (17870) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889123)

I switched off of hotmail to gmail quite a while back, and frankly, I don't miss it. Every once in a while I log in to my old hotmail account to see if anything other than spam is in there. Nope.

Still have yet to get one mismarked spam in my gmail account though.

this one could be a problem for casual users (5, Interesting)

yagu (721525) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889125)

I've had my fun with e-mail spoofing, but now that e-mail is everywhere and used by almost everyone it's probably close to "time" for mechanisms and protocols that make e-mail more trustworthy and difficult to spoof (of course there are always going to be exceptions). But Microsoft contributes little by doing their own end run on the industry.

From the article:

Microsoft's unilateral move may hurt Internet users, he said. "Sender ID isn't widely deployed, meaning that average users are now at risk for having their legitimate e-mail tagged as spam when they send messages to Hotmail users."

Experts say one of the problems with Sender ID is that it doesn't work with e-mail forwarding services. The basic premise of Sender ID is to check if an e-mail that claims to be coming from a certain Internet domain is really being sent from the e-mail servers associated with that domain.

This opens up a huge can of worms... I don't quite get why Microsoft doesn't learn from past mistake^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hefforts. The unwashed masses (read, typical computer users) already deal daily with mind numbing quirky computer behavior (or lack of). For example (and I know I'm beating a dead horse (checkmate!)), Microsoft's morphing menus with chevrons, Microsoft's dumping of random files in random directories to mold their vision of a magical world (how many have been burned by the unexpected "thumbs.db" file in their picture folders?), and bizarro network settings (ever wonder why seemingly every computer in a home network gets configured with bridging?) -- these are just a few examples of things that confuse and irritate typical users, but the ripple effect is into the "support" community (that's us).

Rolling out this semi-baked quasi-standard e-mail device could wreak havoc with the e-mail users. I'm hoping whatever they do it's configured by default to not reject non-ID'ed e-mails. Regardless, unless and until there's a stronger and more mature standard, this one's trouble.

Re:this one could be a problem for casual users (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12889247)

> Regardless, unless and until there's a stronger and more mature standard, this
> one's trouble.

Yes, better to sit around saying `we can't solve this problem...yet` than to try something and simply drop it if it's no good. And no, it won't - at least, shouldn't - mess your business up. If your business relies on a free Hotmail account then perhaps you should stop being such a cheapskate? If email is important to you, you should be paying for the level of service you require.

Re:this one could be a problem for casual users (1)

Evangelion (2145) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889307)


If *I* do not use a free hotmail account, but a majority of my *customers* use free hotmail accounts, that still screws me over.

Shooting themselves in the foot (0, Redundant)

eander315 (448340) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889127)

I fail to see how this is anyone else's problem. If they want to label all my mail as junk, that's fine with me. Their users will probably not be too happy about it, and most will probably switch to another email service. If no one reacts to their demands, MS will be forced to abandon this line of action.

It's only fair (4, Funny)

portwojc (201398) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889130)

Hotmail and MSN will flag as potential spam those messages that do not have the tag to verify the sender

It's only fair cause we already tag mail from those domains as potential spam.

GMail? (2, Interesting)

Andrewkov (140579) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889146)

I wonder if G-Mail will be out of Beta by then? That could be an interesting opertunity for Google.

Anyway, G-Mail is already so superior to Hotmail, in both the interface and spam blocking, I can't imagine why people still use Hotmail.

Re:GMail? (2, Funny)

kevin_conaway (585204) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889172)

Out of beta? Hahahaha. Google has completely crushed the meaning of the word 'beta'.

Re:GMail? (1)

generic-man (33649) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889224)

Who would trust something as important as their e-mail to a beta service that could disappear, go down, or start charging at any moment? Hotmail's been around for ten years and, despite all its criticisms here, it still works without a cover-your-ass BETA tag on it.

Conspiracy theory: Google's testing out a payment system of its own. Who's to say they won't pull an Apple iTools and start rolling out a paid set of features for power users?

maybe it's because... (1)

rainmayun (842754) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889237)

I can't imagine why people still use Hotmail.

A lot of people have address inertia. If you've invested a lot of time, effort and energy spreading around your email address (think of coordinators for reading groups, clubs, etc), then it's a lot of work to move to a new address and make sure everyone follows you. Personally, I think this is a big reason why a lot of people still have AOL, despite its obvious uselessness. I know that's why my sister has it.

Re:maybe it's because... (1)

Andrewkov (140579) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889293)

Good point, that's true. I have a pre-conceived notion that most people use Hotmail as throw-away addresses, but I'm sure there are a lot people who've been using it a long time.

And it is a bit worrying as to what Google's long range plans are. As much as I like G-Mail and other Google services, I'm not sure I'd be willing to pay for it.

Re:GMail? (1)

rayde (738949) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889249)

does anyone know if Gmail or Yahoo currently support SenderID? Will they continue to be able to send to Hotmail users??

Who cares? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12889147)

Good for them. We've been blocking mail from them for years.

Damn if they don't, damn if they do... (2, Interesting)

Mensa Babe (675349) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889148)

1. Microsoft (virri vulnerabilities) causes SPAM. Slashdot outraged.
2. Microsoft fights SPAM. Slashdot equally outraged.
Conclusion: Microsoft is always evil no matter what they do.

I bet that if it was a story about Gmail then it would be a great idea, becasue Google never does evil.

Re:Damn if they don't, damn if they do... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12889248)

1. Microsoft (virri vulnerabilities) causes SPAM. Slashdot outraged.
2. Microsoft fights SPAM. Slashdot equally outraged.
Conclusion: Microsoft is always evil no matter what they do.

I bet that if it was a story about Gmail then it would be a great idea, becasue Google never does evil

- It clearly looks like an attempt from Microsoft to shove down our throats a patent ridden half thought out method of fighting SPAM with the sole goal as to strongarm the entire Internet in using their "standard", read: patent revenue source.

If you think M$ is doing this from the good their hearts to fight the Axis of SPAM then you need to check in with reality.

They can't lock in the Internet into using their POS services like they locked in PC users into using the bloatware called Windows so they are trying new tactics.

Re:Damn if they don't, damn if they do... (5, Informative)

I confirm I'm not a (720413) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889294)

2. Microsoft fights SPAM. Slashdot equally outraged.
Conclusion: Microsoft is always evil no matter what they do.

Nope, Microsoft isn't fighting SPAM - if they were they'd be cooperating with the "rest of the Internet", instead of promoting their own proprietary scheme - SenderID - that's so un-open as to provoke this comment [apache.org] from the Apache Software Foundation:

We believe the current license is generally incompatible with open source, contrary to the practice of open Internet standards, and specifically incompatible with the Apache License 2.0. Therefore, we will not implement or deploy Sender ID under the current license terms.

Various other disparate organisations have raised similar concerns, eventually resulting in the IETF ditching Microsoft's proposal.

Microsoft, at least in this case, weren't interested in a working solution; they were interested in a Microsoft-friendly, FLOSS-hostile solution. Which is daft, given the open-source nature of most Internet technologies.

Re:Damn if they don't, damn if they do... (2, Informative)

asc4 (413110) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889305)

If this were actually a push to prevent spam you might be right. Unfortunately that is not the case. First and foremost this is a blatant attempt by Microsoft to try to force their sender identification standard (which, incidentally they have patents on) on the rest of the world.

Furthermore, SPF/Sender-ID and all their ilk will do little if anything to help with the spam problem. Spammers can publish SPF records just as easily as anyone else. The only major effect it can have is to protect corporate identities by helping to prevent forged From: addresses. Which is great for corporate behemoth's like Microsoft, but does nothing for you or I.

Re:Damn if they don't, damn if they do... (1)

Adambomb (118938) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889323)

If this story was about Gmail, I have a strange feeling it wouldnt involve forcing unwashed "standards" down the users throats.

And how precisely do you propose that this is going to fight spam in a manner that is at all related to microsofts vulnerabilities? All its doing is _filtering it from hotmail_. Doesn't stop the spam generated through the countless vulns from taking up precious bandwidth before our own filters.

False parallels are fun.

Nothing new (1)

princemackenzie (849396) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889154)

Some also feel that Microsoft is trying to strong-arm the industry into the adoption of an incomplete and not accepted standard. Nothing new to see here. Move along.

Heh (1)

Vampyre_Dark (630787) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889155)

After a few weeks of moving over to the new MSN Messenger version and seeing that it's a bigger POS than even before (it does 2 things... annoy you, and have 'click here to buy xxxx' on every part of the interface), I didn't think they'd be looking for even more reasons to trigger an exodus.

The only thing that keeps me there is all my contacts. We need a gMessenger.

other free web mail sites (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12889169)

I'm actualy quite interested too see what the other big free web mail services will do.
If they will support this sender-ID when sending mail to MSN accounts.

If they will or wont will give us a indication of how they view MSN mail.

So? (3, Insightful)

Tim C (15259) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889177)

Every time RBLs are discussed here, there are a great many comments (quite a lot at +5) to the effect of "they're my mail servers, I can drop any mail I want to" from those defending their use of the various RBLs.

How is this any different?

No one I know still uses Hotmail... (1)

rainmayun (842754) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889186)

...for anything important. Even my non-geek friends and family migrated to Gmail, Yahoo and other free providers based on the level of service they were getting.

As for me, I stopped using my Hotmail account when Microsoft acquired them, and they went through that debacle when porting it to NT from Solaris.

This is news? (1)

Svet-Am (413146) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889189)

Some also feel that Microsoft is trying to strong-arm the industry into the adoption of an incomplete and not accepted standard.

Umm... duh! What else is new here?

Home workers (5, Interesting)

nagora (177841) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889196)

So, how does this work for companies with large numbers of home-workers who are happily sending main aout throught their home ISP's with "spoofed" headers claiming, quite correctly, that their email comes from the company?

Frankly, Sender-ID is a dead duck for many reasons but the biggest is simply that many legitimate emails come from random IPs while plenty of spam comes from infected "authorised" machines.

This is just another, on a thirty-year-long run, example of the fact that when it comes to IT, MS is clueless. Business methods and the law are their fortes.

TWW

Fool me twice, shame on who? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12889206)

Some also feel that Microsoft is trying to strong-arm the industry into the adoption of an incomplete and not accepted standard.

Get out of town!

to us german-speaking guys (0, Troll)

cwebb1977 (650175) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889212)

it's known as scHrOTtmail anyway

No Need To Change (1)

gpmidi (891665) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889214)

If they go ahead with this then my users will simply not be able to send email to hotmail users. I see no need to implment garbage.

Home Mail Servers? (1)

JerryMcFarts (894463) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889229)

How will this affect mail servers that we create on our own? So our next generation of geeks can't experiment with their own?

Who will use hotmail? (4, Insightful)

blue_adept (40915) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889236)

Hotmail has been on a steady decline every since Microsoft bought it. Just compare it to gmail or yahoo (which you CAN use with almost ANY useragent, even ones that don't support javascript). Most other webmail providers are now more rhobust, with a cleaner interface.

Not to mention you don't have to worry about them trashing your Non-Sender-ID emails.

Good for the gander... (2, Insightful)

pla (258480) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889241)

Some also feel that Microsoft is trying to strong-arm the industry into the adoption of an incomplete and not accepted standard.

...And some (like me) feel that anything from Hotmail most likely counts as spam anyway, and have the entire domain in my filter list.

So Hotmail can't get mail from me anymore. Boo-frickin'-hoo. What next, AOL doing the same? Then perhaps Yahoo?

Sorry, but until a major provider that matters picks an anti-spam tech, they will accomplish nothing more than effectively depriving their customers from using email.

Re:Good for the gander... (1)

Jugalator (259273) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889314)

Then perhaps Yahoo?

Yahoo already use DomainKeys [yahoo.com] , and so does Gmail.

It would be better if Hotmail used that, as two large mail providers already do since maybe a year back.

That's good news... for Gmail (4, Funny)

Wolfger (96957) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889252)

One invite already gone, 49 to go. :-)

The id (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12889254)

It's quite surprising that Microsoft should be so opposed to email in which the sender has no id.

I mean, according to Freud's definition (thanks wikipedia), an important part of the 'id' is "the desire for instant gratification or release".

Considering Microsoft's history of delayed rather than instant release, you think they'd be in favour of accomodating this kindred spirit.

Wikipedian? (3, Insightful)

mnemonic_ (164550) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889270)

Some experts feel that 'Sender ID' is not an accepted standard and has many shortcomings. Some also feel that Microsoft is trying to strong-arm the industry into the adoption of an incomplete and not accepted standard.

Let me guess, the story submitter is a Wikipedian? Let's try to avoid weasel terms [wikipedia.org] . Unlike Wikipedia, Slashdot has no neutrality obligation, but if you want to attack something then be clear about it. Don't be redundant either; if a web standard is not accepted by the W3C (the only real web standards authority), then it is not a standard. Let me show you:

Opponents believe the non-standard 'Sender ID' is flawed, and that Microsoft is trying to force the industry to adopting an incomplete protocol.

See? It's shorter, unequivocal while maintaining all previous meaning. Weasel words do not sanitize an opinion in any way.

-- User:Xmnemonic [wikipedia.org]

I previewed, really! (1)

mnemonic_ (164550) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889295)

"to adopting" should of course be "to adopt."

surprise, surprise (1)

rknop (240417) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889274)

Some also feel that Microsoft is trying to strong-arm the industry into the adoption of an incomplete and not accepted standard.

You mean Hotmail?

(Of course, that statement in general is an excellent short description of Microsoft's strategy to maintain dominance. Maybe add to it "that is proprietarily controlled by Microsoft" at the end, since that's what they'd really prefer. When you're the monopolist or near-monopolist, industry standards that are open are very inconvenient for you.)

-Rob

How will I get my Spam Now? (1)

ehaggis (879721) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889276)

Does this mean my Nigerian financial sponsor will not be able to communicate with me? What about my special meds at discount prices? How about the free vacations?

This is truly a dark day indeed.

After November?? (1)

psallitesapienter (809284) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889280)

Even though I rarely use Hotmail anymore, the few emails that were sent to my account have been lying in the "Junk" ever since (1 year). I've never gotten a "straight" email, even those coming from Yahoo! and other free webmail services. If M$ wants to inforce a standard, that's fine with me as long as it's safe and well done, and by the looks of M$ software so far, I don't think that's going to happen any time soon.

I am afraid that... (1)

suman28 (558822) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889283)

Microsoft will most likely block the emails, and send an email to the user saying "This looks legitimate, but we can't deliver it because the sender's company is not using Sender-ID. You may contact them here to show that you would like to see them implement it".
This will get the ball off their court, as they will get regular users thinking that this is a good thing and we should contact the other company to tell them to implement it, thereby slowly penetrating the market with the bull they call an innovation.

Things are Looking Up! (1)

pete-classic (75983) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889290)

Microsoft is trying to strong-arm the industry into the adoption of an incomplete and not accepted standard.


This is a huge improvement over the status quo, namely, Microsoft trying to strong-arm the industry into the adoption of incomplete, closed, patent-encumbered, poorly documented, and not accepted standard.

-Peter

Won't work (0)

jwegy (775655) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889292)

This won't be an easy transition.

Person A:Why haven't you replied to my email??
Person B:What email? Are you crazy?
Person A:I sent an email to your hotmail account.
Person B:Hmm. Lots of people are wondering why I haven't replied to their email. Hotmail must be a piece of crap.
Person A:Yeah you need to ditch them. Use gmail.
Person B:OK...www.gmail.com

Blimey (1)

Mr_Silver (213637) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889298)

So what they're saying is that, come November, the Hotmail spam filter might actually start to catch some spam?

-_- (1)

adam.conf (893668) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889300)

SenderID forgets the fact that most legitimate email users don't use "authorized" servers, and that any new server isn't automatically a spammer. Further, there is nothing stopping an "authorized" server from getting hacked and becomming a spammer. Microsoft is trying to strongarm a bad idea. Assuming that the other free emails don't adopt the standard, I feel its doomed to die.

I've got 50 gmail invites for hotmail users! (1, Informative)

mshiltonj (220311) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889301)

If you are are hotmail user, just send me a request at mshiltonj at gmail dot com and I will send you an invitation to use the gmail service. Free. First come, first serve. Hotmail users only!

Need a GMAIL Invite? (0, Offtopic)

Proudrooster (580120) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889310)

Anyone looking to ditch hotmail? Let me know and I will send you your very own GMAIL invitation. GMAIL is not run by the "evil empire" and generally does an excellent job at crushing spam. GMAIL is run by a cool company named Google, while Hotmail is run by a crusty, uncool company named MicroSoft. Just based on cool points alone, GMAIL is the superior choice.

Well? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12889311)

Some also feel that Microsoft is trying to strong-arm the industry into the adoption of an incomplete and not accepted standard.

Does the industry have a complete accepted standard? Why not? It's been more than a decade since spam has become a big issue. If by now the industry hasn't come up with a good standard to fight it, they never will. This is not Microsft's fault, this is the industry's fault for dragging their asses.

Thank you Microsoft (2, Insightful)

hacker (14635) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889316)

Well that cinches it... now I can block Hotmail permanently, since they are refusing to deliver mail from my legitimate MX.

There are lots of alternatives to using Hotmail... Gmail, Yahoo mail, and others. Use them instead.

99% of the mail coming from Hotmail is spam anyway, so this gives me more reason to stop the spam coming from Hotmail to my users. I'm protecting my users by blocking Hotmail.

I for one am tired of Microsoft claiming to embrace standards by strangling off the air from the lungs of the real standards bodies. When Sender-ID is a widespread industry standard (i.e. in every MTA without patching), THEN I'll begin working with Microsoft to stop spam.

I will not be strong-armed by Microsoft, ever, especially where it affects MY server and MY users and MY mail. Period.

Until their OS stops being a malware replication engine, their services stop harboring spammers by the millions, and their patches actually FIX problems instead of CAUSING them, they can go pound sand.

Wow, good news! (1)

isilrion (814117) | more than 9 years ago | (#12889318)

I must say that I'm actually happy about this. I look forward to it! I'm a bit scared, yes, but I kind of trust that common sense will prevail (I know that's kind of naive).

For what I understand of the problem, this will work only if enough [big] ISP use it. Luckily, some projects "inability" to deploy SenderID (Apache and Debian come to mind) makes me doubt it'll ever happen, thus I hope this sends the shadow of SenderID that's been lurking the internet for too long now back into oblivion. And, as a side a effect, I may be able to make my borther and uncle move away from hotmail.

Obviously I'm a bit biased... I don't like SenderID, from almost any point of view. It troubles me morally (by restricting what should be an open protocol), and "physically" (my faculty's exchange server is a pain to use for that reason).

That said... I really doubt it'll happen. Microsoft may be evil, but they are not stupid. The chances of this backfiring are too great.

Isilrion
-- P.S: Now, I know enough about the SPF and SenderID to not like them, but I haven't been able to find the relevant patents for the SenderID problem... Could anyone point them to me? Thanks!
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