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Toshiba HD-DVD Player Planned to Enforce HDMI

timothy posted about 9 years ago | from the thou-shalt-not dept.

Television 277

CCat writes "Digital Spy reports that at a recent Toshiba road show in the U.S., Toshiba demonstrated their upcoming HD-DVD specification. The most interesting thing for people buying TVs at the moment is that Toshiba has stated that their HD-DVD Player will ONLY output high Def on the player's HDMI output (plus other digital connections) with the analog output downrezed to 480 lines. Prior slashdot disussion talks about the copy prevention angle and HDCP guidelines."

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277 comments

Can you believe... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13038914)

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Re:Can you believe... (-1, Offtopic)

Free_Trial_Thinking (818686) | about 9 years ago | (#13038940)

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plz fix program (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13038967)

I'm working on some modifications to that software. My changes will be released under a highly restrictive closed license to protect my intellectual property.

HDTV! (2, Informative)

groovy.ambuj (870307) | about 9 years ago | (#13038916)

There have been recent surge in HDTV. Recently ATI technologies also annouced cheap HDTV... though wondering why would Toshiba support only high def??

Re:HDTV! (5, Informative)

damsa (840364) | about 9 years ago | (#13038972)

I think you are reading it wrong. Toshiba will only support high def if your TV has also a HDMI plug. Otherwise it will look the same if you use component or other methods of cabling as a progressive scan DVD.

My guess is, is so the movie studios will release stuff on Toshiba's format first because it will be less likely to be pirated. HDMI only means that stuff will be encrypted. Then everyone will buy Toshiba's format then Toshiba can make billions off licensing. Most people won't notice that their HDTV set is not playing at full capacity HD mode using regular plugs so they will continue to buy Toshiba HD-DVD licensed stuff because it's out sooner than blue ray. It's an interesting strategy but probably will not work as Sony also owns a movie studio, thus most movies from Sony, like Spiderman 3 will probably come out on Blu Ray first if HD-DVD at all.

Re:HDTV! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13038982)

You mean support only low definition. And the answer is clear. Toshiba sucks.

Toshiba is wasting it's money (2, Interesting)

Augusto (12068) | about 9 years ago | (#13038921)

If the PS3 hits early 2006, and the XBox comes out sans HD-DVD, you can kiss this stupid format goodbye. There's no great motivation for most consumers to buy these drives yet, so they're a bit early. And their players really can't compete with a gaming machine, so I don't know what their strategy is here.

Re:Toshiba is wasting it's money (1)

NanoGator (522640) | about 9 years ago | (#13039354)

"And their players really can't compete with a gaming machine, so I don't know what their strategy is here."

They can if the PS3 is released at $400.

It's all academic anyway, we don't know enough right now. Movie selection, or lack thereof, can have tragic results on either format.

Re:Toshiba is wasting it's money (1)

minus_273 (174041) | about 9 years ago | (#13039414)

right becasue people will watch movies on $300 DVD players, bust them and not be able to play games. Keep in mind these are the same companies that had really serrious DVD drive issues with this generation of consoles.

Format war (1)

lowe0 (136140) | about 9 years ago | (#13038923)

And Blu Ray will probably do the same thing.

How many of us have more than one HDMI (or DVI+HDCP) jack on our TVs? Not me.

Re:Format war (1)

wo1verin3 (473094) | about 9 years ago | (#13038939)

>> How many of us have more than one HDMI (or
>> DVI+HDCP) jack on our TVs? Not me.

You may in the future.... and while I'm sure hacks will come out for players (mod chips?) and TVs... who would really want to start voiding warranty on a $1500+ television....

Re:Format war (2, Insightful)

FLEB (312391) | about 9 years ago | (#13039042)

Box-in-the-middle?

Re:Format war (3, Interesting)

timecop (16217) | about 9 years ago | (#13039289)

DTCP/5C [dtcp.com] has been around since 1998. One of the things they have us content protection over 1394. DTCP/5C protection supports renewability, copy control information, and content encryption. All the HDTV equipment with 1394 (DVHS vcr, monitors with 1394 input) are required to implement DTCP for copy control/encryption.

This system has not been broken as of today (2005), and the possibilities that a "box in the middle" attack can even be applied to this protection scheme are unlikely, because of how key exchange is implemented and because compromised hardware can be blacklisted easily.

Re:Format war (2, Insightful)

raventh1 (581261) | about 9 years ago | (#13039391)

You make great points. There is still at least one point left to be made: None of those products had market saturation, and general people didn't really care about trying to crack it. If this becomes the defacto standard, you will see what happened to DVD (Yes, CSS is a broken scheme. What makes you think DTCP isn't as broken?)

Re:Format war (1)

mboverload (657893) | about 9 years ago | (#13038956)

Of course consumers will allow themselves to be fucked over hog tied.

You misunderstand consumers (2, Insightful)

SuperKendall (25149) | about 9 years ago | (#13039134)

Yes, consumers will take a certain amount of working over.

But this is TV. When the TV starts screwing up, the other folk in the household get pissed off. They start to ask "why did you buy this piece of crap"? And then it gets returned.

It's easy to screw around with peoples freedoms where they do not notice. But when you start causing issues with peoples entertainment, they take notice and put a stop to it right quick.

If consumers are so easily duped, how come DVD-A didn't take off? Or perhaps DAT? When formats are not free in all ways a consumer cares about then people will not buy them.

Re:You misunderstand consumers (3, Insightful)

ShieldW0lf (601553) | about 9 years ago | (#13039235)

Yeah, right. Just like when the original DVD came out. Copy protection, advertising enforcement and thinly-veiled illegal price fixing in one neat package, and they eat it up like hotcakes.

Typical consumers have no imagination and accept what they are told. If you complain, you're met with either the same resigned agreement you get when you complain about the weather, or the "company line" about how it's all good and necessary and looked at as an idiot or a communist.

It's damn near impossible to underestimate the stupidity of the masses.

Re:You misunderstand consumers (3, Insightful)

Zorilla (791636) | about 9 years ago | (#13039315)

Yes, consumers will take a certain amount of working over.

But this is TV. When the TV starts screwing up, the other folk in the household get pissed off. They start to ask "why did you buy this piece of crap"? And then it gets returned.


If this were entirely true, digital cable/satellite TV would not be the heaping piece of crap that it is today and you might actually get picture quality comparable to analog and not wait 2 seconds just to change the channel.

As for HD, I have yet to see a stream, by means of over-the-air or terrestrial cable, that didn't have the bitrate squeezed so hard that artifacts were everywhere and anything beyong 480p was pointless.

Re:Format war (4, Interesting)

Temsi (452609) | about 9 years ago | (#13039131)

Are you kidding?
I don't even have one, and I have an HDTV!

I have a CRT Philips set, which uses component input.
So, basically, Toshiba expects me to buy a third piece of hardware (a video processor) in order to use their product? Dream on.
This should dramatically hurt their sales. This hyperparanoia with regard to copy protection has gotten out of hand.

Re:Format war (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13039186)

Yeah, that's totally crap. Crap like someone posting a "freeipods.com" link hidden in a TinyURL link.

OK, not the same kind of crap, but they are both crap that nobody likes.

Just thought you should know.

Re:Format war (1)

lowe0 (136140) | about 9 years ago | (#13039208)

I would imagine that if Toshiba were going to allow a video processor that could output 720p/1080i from HD-DVD, they'd simply build one into the player.

Re:Format war (1)

Internet_Communist (592634) | about 9 years ago | (#13039327)

Exactly, my CRT-based hdtv only has component inputs as well. And that makes sense, CRT's are analog. You'd have to convert it either way.

What makes you think they'll even sell a video processor? That'd essentially be removing their HDMI and thus making the whole purpose of this pointless. I suppose it won't be too long though before someone just makes a DVI/HDMI -> DVI/HDMI box that just chops out HDCP. Of course owning such a device might mean you're a pirate and selling one means you're an evil pirate facilitator, that's obviously a felony.

Guess what, toshiba just lost a potential customer. Oh well. Guess that means I have an excuse when I go and pirate it.

I'd never by it... (2, Interesting)

Nimrangul (599578) | about 9 years ago | (#13038928)

I refuse to buy Toshiba branded products. Their DVD players have this wonderful knack for dying once they're three years old.

Three capacitors on my DVD player are all that stand between me and a working DVD player - but they'd be charging for it instead of fixing what is obviously them using shit to make it.

So I just refuse to give them another cent.

Re:I'd never by it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13039006)

So your DVD player died, thus they have a habit of doing it?

I know many, many people who have SD-2109 and SD-1200 units which are now some 4-5 years old, and are still going strong.

Do you have any evidence for this habit of Toshiba players dying, or you just bitter at your isolated incident of Toshiba death?

Do Toshiba actually make capacitors now? Or do they purposely buy the ones that are ready and primed to die in 3 years?

Re:I'd never by it... (2, Interesting)

Nimrangul (599578) | about 9 years ago | (#13039071)

Evidence?

Physical no, but definately what the Toshiba repairman on the phone said.

When my audio and frontal display both stopped working at the same time when it was around 4 years of age I phoned a local certified Toshiba shop, which were pleased to tell me my problem was a common one with DVD players. They said that they would have to have it brought in before they would be willing to tell me how much it would cost and that just looking at it would cost 25 dollars.

I thought to myself, if it's a common problem, then there must be people on the Internet who have had the same issue.

So I googled around and found quite a bit about it, mostly information supplied by Toshiba repairmen that are nice guys. The sites for the most part detailed how a fair number, though the SD-1700 especially, have this trouble and how a set of capacitors on the motherboard being replaced would fix the problem.

That my DVD player lasted longer than most doesn't really comfort me. I don't replace my TV every 4 years, it's gotta be going on 8 and my VCR is still going strong at almost 14 years old, so I really don't feel pleased in needing to repair something like this this soon in the player's lifespan.

I don't care if Toshiba made shoddy capacitors or bought them, they're the screw-ups asking me to pay for it.

Pretty crazy, really (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13039255)

*Everybody* got shoddy capacitors for a few years around 2001. Virtually every manufacturer of electronics was hit.

The scale of the problem was far too enormous for most companies to do anything out of warranty. If your player was four years old, and therefore out of warranty, there's nothing they can do about it. If they did, they'd be screwing their stockholders out of a misplaced sense of social justice.

Your product lasted as long as it was guaranteed to last. Now you know that when you buy a product, the warranty period is all you should expect, because that's all you've paid for in their eyes.

Maybe that will change how much you're willing to spend on things, but it's not manufacturer specific. They all responded the same way. Products with a one year warranty were generally fixed out of warranty, products with a three year warranty were not.

Re:I'd never by it... (3, Interesting)

Pollardito (781263) | about 9 years ago | (#13039297)

I don't replace my TV every 4 years, it's gotta be going on 8 and my VCR is still going strong at almost 14 years old, so I really don't feel pleased in needing to repair something like this this soon in the player's lifespan.
4 years is a joke for consumer electronics, so i'd be skeptical too. i had a 19" TV that kicked out a year or two ago that was about 14 years old at the time, and another that was passed down to me from a relative and must be even older than that (though i can't vouch for how much use it got). all my parents' TVs have had similar lifespans, as a matter of fact they decommissioned one a few years ago that was so old that [cordless] remote controls were uncommon when they bought it. i still have the VCR that i bought 10 years ago (which only was bought as a replacement because the first one was stolen), and when my brother gets bored he can fire up my old NES from more than 15 years ago or my N64 from 8 years ago. i'm not listing all this because i think our experiences are anything atypical, i'm listing them because i think we've seen the same longer lifespan across a breadth of electronics.

i wonder what the typical lifespan of a computer is, setting aside the fact that most people dispose of them faster just because they're outdated. if they do die faster than other electronics, i wonder which is the part that dies fastest on average (my guess would be hard drive?)

Re:I'd never by it... (1)

mzwaterski (802371) | about 9 years ago | (#13039060)

If you aren't going to pay to have it fixed, then what do you have to lose. http://www.digikey.com/ [digikey.com] Pick up a couple caps and go to town!

Excellent (4, Insightful)

Alaren (682568) | about 9 years ago | (#13038943)

All I can say is, good. As soon as the general population is forcefully exposed to DRM in the form of movies they can't watch and technologies they can't take advantage of, maybe we can have some intelligent discussion about this sort of thing.

It drives me nuts to watch megacorporations implement "de facto" limitations where they have failed to implement legal limitations. We need to start making laws that don't just establish fair use, but actually protect it. But those kinds of laws require a national agenda, and most people are just oblivious to this sort of thing.

But when their new TV won't work with their new DVD player? Then the people will cry for blood.

Re:The issues are there, but nobody's attentive. (3, Insightful)

Freaky Spook (811861) | about 9 years ago | (#13039103)

I have seen plenty of Authors & reporters trying to publish these issues in mainstream news, but unfortunatley not many people pay attention because our basic rights & privilages arn't that important when Terrorism is much more glossy and sells a lot better.

When this war on Terror eventually gets old, people are going wonder what happened to all their basic civil liberty's, why mega corporations dictiate what they do, why health & education aren't working etc etc.

Re:The issues are there, but nobody's attentive. (1)

JWW (79176) | about 9 years ago | (#13039174)

Your right, people will ignore this ... until.

People will ignore this stuff until they bring home yet another component that won't work right with their Thousand dollar TV. Then they'll be really really pissed.

I predict that if the industry gets its way with DRM , then when HDTV finally gets to almost everyone there will be a bloodbath at the polls as people run against incumbents with lines line "Senator X took away your TV, I'll give it back."

DRM is out of hand, its never worked, but the entertainment industry will never learn.

Re:The issues are there, but nobody's attentive. (2, Insightful)

Internet_Communist (592634) | about 9 years ago | (#13039382)

You're kidding me right? You think the same people dumb enough to be led around by the media would be smart enough to figure that it's the DRM stopping their tv from being able to play their new hd-dvd?

No, they'll just spend their next pay check on a new tv that's no better then their current one except for oh say, the copy-protected video input port. That is, if they hadn't already been persuaded by the manipulative best buy employee to buy a new tv before hand anyway.

You are over-estimating the average intelligence of most people in hope that they'll realize what DRM is (among the other stupid things going on around them) and take a stand. I lost that hope a long time ago.

Re:The issues are there, but nobody's attentive. (1)

rajafarian (49150) | about 9 years ago | (#13039410)

While I feel the same way as you, I remain hopeful that one day the average person will be able to follow a logical argument.

Re:Excellent (1)

danimal67 (679464) | about 9 years ago | (#13039120)

It'll work but it'll be 480i. I think HD is fantastic, but nobody will cry for blood. They probably won't even realize it's not 1080.

Re:Excellent (1)

Kjella (173770) | about 9 years ago | (#13039124)

All I can say is, good. As soon as the general population is forcefully exposed to DRM in the form of movies they can't watch and technologies they can't take advantage of

Seriously, a bunch of early adopters of HDTV (no, only DTV is being forced soon, not HDTV) is limited to 480p, many of which are only 720p LCD/plasma/other screens. While I understand it is somewhat frustrating, I doubt this is "the general population". Some will not even care all too much about an upscaled 480p.

The fact of it is, the "general population" aren't going to take it in the balls (yet). It is the tech users, those pushing the technology to the limit which are going to feel the introduction pains, and only once it is saturated will they tighten the vice on the rest.

Kjella

Re:Excellent (1)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | about 9 years ago | (#13039417)

But when their new TV won't work with their new DVD player? Then the people will cry for blood.

no they won't.

like most sheeple, they'll pay the 15% restocking fee and go back to watching the same old tv they had before.

No Toshiba standard for me then. (1)

BigChigger (551094) | about 9 years ago | (#13038944)

I'm being punished for being an early adopter; my HDTV has composit input only.

I guess I'll just by the Sony standard.

BC

Re:No Toshiba standard for me then. (4, Funny)

badasscat (563442) | about 9 years ago | (#13039088)

I'm being punished for being an early adopter; my HDTV has composit input only.

If somebody sold you an HDTV with nothing but a composite input, then I've got a bridge on the East River you might be interested in too.

Re:No Toshiba standard for me then. (1)

Brad1138 (590148) | about 9 years ago | (#13039285)

Only recently (2-3 yrs) have HDTV's come with HDMI or DVI. Also your current entry level sets still may lack them.

Re:No Toshiba standard for me then. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13039329)

No - if you only have a composite (not COMPONENT) HDTV, then he really does have a bridge for you.

Uh, composite video is limited to 140 lines (1)

xswl0931 (562013) | about 9 years ago | (#13039219)

Composite video has a limitation of 140 lines (120 lines practical) of resolution. HDTV is 720P or 1080i. I don't believe you have a HDTV that only has composite input. Component perhaps.

Re:Uh, composite video is limited to 140 lines (2, Informative)

Cowclops (630818) | about 9 years ago | (#13039268)

If 720p is 720 lines... then composite video is 525 lines (in NTSC countries anyway.) Not sure where you got "140 lines (120 practical)" from because you can definitely get >400 HORIZONTAL lines from a laserdisc and laserdiscs are recorded in composite video. Even VHS tapes can handle about 240 lines. All NTSC composite connections are 525 lines vertically, with about 486 and a half of them actually being visible on screen and the rest is just the vblank period.

Re:Uh, composite video is limited to 140 lines (1)

xswl0931 (562013) | about 9 years ago | (#13039400)

Sorry was quoting horizontal resolution, not vertical.

Component not Composite (1)

StArSkY (128453) | about 9 years ago | (#13039304)

Component and Composite and different.

Component can do 1080i no probs.

Re:No Toshiba standard for me then. (2, Interesting)

Cybercifrado (467729) | about 9 years ago | (#13039283)

Sorry bud, but composite in isn't HDTV. Quick rundown: HDTV is a 16:9 standard (4:3 TVs aren't truly HDTV) that runs at higher than 480p - i.e. 540p, 720p, 1080i or 1080p. If your TV is only capable of 480i and 480p then you only have an EDTV, and were misinformed.
As far as composite goes; the max it carries is 480p, and that's rare. It usually only carries 480i signal. If you want HDTV, you'll need component (Y, Pb, Pr + R&L audio) connectors. Component easily carries the 1080i standard. If you have any other questions, feel free to email me at cybercifrado[atsymbolhere]gmail[dot]com.

Wow (5, Insightful)

UserChrisCanter4 (464072) | about 9 years ago | (#13038954)

So Toshiba's HD-DVD player will not display HD video on the millions of Toshiba HDTVs that were produced before DVI and HDMI were common? Awesome!

The funniest part is that no one would want to bootleg over the component connections anyway. I don't know of a signle component capture card that's priced remotely near what a normal consumer could afford. The big piracy houses will find a quick workaround anyway. But they'll stave off all four casual pirates with access to professional capture devices, at least until the HD-DVD encryption is cracked.

We're all used to ludicrous DRM systems, but I've never seen an electronics company (without a major stake in the film/music production business) so willing to shoot themselves in the foot.

Re:Wow (2, Insightful)

Intellectual Elitist (706889) | about 9 years ago | (#13039010)

> So Toshiba's HD-DVD player will not display HD video on the millions of Toshiba HDTVs that were produced before DVI and HDMI were common?

Yeah, no kidding. I bought a Toshiba HDTV in late 2001, and it only has component video inputs for HD content. Instead of rewarding me for paying a premium to be an early adopter, I'm being punished because of the assumption that I'm going to pirate movies. Very classy.

Re:Wow (1)

bastardoperator (802117) | about 9 years ago | (#13039292)

No, you will most likly just go buy a cheaper DVD player with the proper outputs and give toshiba the finger.

Re:Wow (2, Insightful)

timeOday (582209) | about 9 years ago | (#13039022)

...at least until the HD-DVD encryption is cracked.
Anybody care to bet how long breaking HD CSS will take?

I know the conventional slashdot wisdom is "no time at all" but I'm not so sure. There was a long, annoying period of several years during which linux could not play DVDs. The manufacturers have a lot of money at stake (well, at least the content producers do) and I wouldn't be surprised if they finall get it right.

Re:Wow (1)

sqlrob (173498) | about 9 years ago | (#13039092)

"Getting it right" would involve not making it available on general purpose computers *at all*. Do you think they'll go that far?

Re:Wow (2, Informative)

afidel (530433) | about 9 years ago | (#13039349)

Yes, in fact the HDCP spec specifically bars the decryption of protected content on general purpose PC's. That means no more media center XP, no more homebrew PVR's, no more doing as you wish with your purchased content. And of course once the encryption is cracked the easiest way to enjoy your purchase will be to break the law (DMCA) and strip all the "protection" nonesense and so with it as you damn well please.

Re:Wow (3, Insightful)

assassinator42 (844848) | about 9 years ago | (#13039364)

It might take a while. DVD audio was just recently cracked, right? And it's more of a workaround. Windows Media DRM/5c/other types of DRM haven't been cracked. These people who think it will be cracked in no time at all are in for a letdown.

Re:Wow (1)

Monkelectric (546685) | about 9 years ago | (#13039399)

I know the conventional slashdot wisdom is "no time at all" but I'm not so sure.

Thank you voice of reason. Id like to point out that DVD-Audio was JUST cracked a few days ago (yay, now I can start buying them).

Re:Wow (1)

AbRASiON (589899) | about 9 years ago | (#13039059)

I've already mentioned this but yep, me too - 36" HDTV (CRT) - only 6 months ago - dual component inputs - no sign of HDMI what so ever.

and I don't want my audio on the same cable as my video - sure it's a nice idea but really a DVI cable and an optical or coax is totally fine with me.

This is going to be a bastard for people with home theatre receivers, I need to send audio to the receiver, video to the TV - how do I do this with a single cable?

Re:Wow (1)

rodgerd (402) | about 9 years ago | (#13039242)

Why, you'll junk your existing A/V reciever and buy a shiny new Toshiba one that acts as a video switch for their new cabling format, to go with your new TV and DVD player.

Or not.

Re:Wow (1)

Internet_Communist (592634) | about 9 years ago | (#13039355)

you do realize that hdmi is basically just dvi with a new connector and audio bundled right? And both have HDCP copy protection, of course. I don't see why someone couldn't make an HDMI > DVI + audio cable, unless the audio is in some weird format. I always figured it was just spdif....

Re:Wow (1)

mccoma (64578) | about 9 years ago | (#13039091)

The big piracy houses will find a quick workaround anyway.

Yep, pirates will just copy the whole HD-DVD in total and skip over the copy protection. Bit-by-bit copies will be made.

I'm with you, my current HDTV is useless for this player - glad I bought early.

"It's a feature!" (1)

arose (644256) | about 9 years ago | (#13039194)

You know they will do that.

"It's Filet Mingon, but ONLY on our grill!" (4, Informative)

Nova Express (100383) | about 9 years ago | (#13038961)

"If you try to grill steaks on any grill other than our own, it instantly turns into hamburger!"

"And I would buy this why?"

"Well, since I'm in marketing, I'm assuming it's because people are stupid!"

"Well, if I were surrounded by that much stupidity, I'd think people were stupid too."

Because the steak producers are asking for it? (1)

xswl0931 (562013) | about 9 years ago | (#13039244)

What good is a DRM free grill if there is no one producing steaks for it?

Re:Because the steak producers are asking for it? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13039298)

Steak boy: Do not try and grill the steak. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Steak boy: It's made of people.

WHY? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13038965)

If D-Theater had Component Out why not HD-DVD ?

How many D-Theater movies are floating around the net? nil

Replacing the analog hole with the visual hole (1)

emkman (467368) | about 9 years ago | (#13038970)

By the time these come out, (somewhat)affordable HD camcorders will also be hitting the market. Maybe they will have to make tripods illegal under the DMCA.

Re:Replacing the analog hole with the visual hole (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | about 9 years ago | (#13039265)

Probably should try to plug the bunghole ... that's where are these stupid ideas are coming from anyway.

let me be the first to say... (1)

enrico_suave (179651) | about 9 years ago | (#13038971)

boooooooooo! hisssssss!

intentionally crippling consumer electronic devices to try and lockout the analog loop hole...booo!

*sigh*

e.

HDCP requried by DVD spec (4, Informative)

rstewart (31100) | about 9 years ago | (#13038978)

HDCP is currently required by the DVD licensing group for all players that output at greater than 480p resolutions.

If you take a look at all the major dvd players out there that have scalers built into them you'll find that currently the only way to go above 480p on them is to use a dvi or hdmi output with hdcp. This is not new and Toshiba is not doing anything different. The problem is truly the standards bodies bowing to pressure from the MPAA and Hollywood to not allow unencrypted signals in high def off of players.

The old argument remains that Hollywood says they will not release movies in that format unless they can't be protected from copying and thus the technology giants bow to them in order to sell their product. I am still awaiting a technology giant to dare Hollywood to not support a format and thus lose the sales that way. Of course with companies like Sony running their own music and movie divisions that probably will not happen any time soon.

Re:HDCP requried by DVD spec (4, Insightful)

John Seminal (698722) | about 9 years ago | (#13039068)

you'll find that currently the only way to go above 480p on them is to use a dvi or hdmi

DVI is not encrypted, is it?

This reminds me of the macroflash that some DVD players have. If you try and copy a DVD to a VHS tape, it will phase in and out of the picture in all sorts of colors. Did people think that a 480p picture needs to be protected from being copied on a format that is half the resolution and interlaced?

I am still awaiting a technology giant to dare Hollywood to not support a format and thus lose the sales that way. Of course with companies like Sony running their own music and movie divisions that probably will not happen any time soon.

The problem is not with copying a DVD. Studios don't lose money because someone copies a DVD and trades it. Studios loose money when you already have the $29.99 blockbuster hit on DVD, and two years later they re-release the same movie on DVD and clean it up a bit. Who wants to buy the same shit twice? It pisses people off, and that is when they start thinking about copying a DVD. No, they don't copy the ultra edition, because that is the one they want to buy and have as a part of their DVD collection. They copy the crappy first release. Now I have known some DVD collectors with 700+ DVD's to copy a DVD, and then see the DVD was done right, and buy the first version. People don't want to buy shit.

Studios do not respect people. If Studios respected me as a person, they would not waste my time. Not in theaters with 20 minutes of commercials and $5 popcorns. Not with DVD's that disable the menu and fast forward buttons. Not with DVD's that get re-released three times.

Re: DVDs getting multiple releases (2, Interesting)

xswl0931 (562013) | about 9 years ago | (#13039261)

I don't quite get why people get upset about DVDs getting released multiple times. When you bought the DVD initially, were you happy with it? If not, why did you buy it? Did you feel like you must have the latest greatest? When the manufacturer of your car releases an updated version, do you equally get upset?

Re:HDCP requried by DVD spec (1)

Internet_Communist (592634) | about 9 years ago | (#13039393)

DVI IS encrypted, with the same exact HDCP that HDMI has. That's why there's tons of DVI>HDMI and vice versa cables. The only difference is that HDMI has audio with it as well, and a fancy new connector.

Re:HDCP requried by DVD spec (1)

Brad1138 (590148) | about 9 years ago | (#13039302)

Do they really believe that whatever form of encryption they use won't eventually be cracked?

PAL? (1)

tepples (727027) | about 9 years ago | (#13039326)

If you take a look at all the major dvd players out there that have scalers built into them you'll find that currently the only way to go above 480p on them is to use a dvi or hdmi output with hdcp

480p maximum? So what do the PAL DVD players do? Do they downsample 576p to 480p?

Good for Toshiba! (1)

AbRASiON (589899) | about 9 years ago | (#13038986)

I sure as shit won't be purchasing one, and neither will an absoloute boat load of HDTV (CRT) owners without digital inputs.

Good luck to them indeed.

Nothing unique about HDMI limits (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13038993)

Currently, all players that upconvert their video and use HDMI or DVI can only view that 720/1080 video via the HDMI/DVI. They can get 480p out of the component video outputs, but that's it. I don't know why this is such a special announcement.

There's only two players I know of that can do 720 or 1080 via component video (or RGBHV): Krell's DVD Standard and something from Ayre. Both cost more than $8,000, without the "upgrade" that enables the RGBHV output, and aren't worth it compared to Pioneer's superior DV-59AVi.

the way it's going... (1)

akhomerun (893103) | about 9 years ago | (#13039002)

people may just stick with normal DVDs. maybe both formats suck!

Blu Ray is expensive, and you if more companies follow Toshiba's example, HD-DVDs won't play on 99% of TVs. Are these companies half retarded?

Don't they realize that to 99.9% of the world DVD quality is pretty damn good even for some of the largest HDTVs?

"Secure Digital Outputs"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13039004)

The article says that HD output is provided not only by HDMI, but also by firewire. Does anybody know what security measures would be taken to secure the firewire output? What would happen if I just plugged the DVD player into my firewire port and tried to import video?

Re:"Secure Digital Outputs"? (2, Informative)

eobiont (191413) | about 9 years ago | (#13039250)

Firewire is secured by 5C style encryption. Free to Copy, Copy Once, or Copy Never. Singnal other than Free to Copy are not passed out firewire if there is any device on the firewire chain that is non-5C compliant.

Boooogus.

I already had a preview of what's to come (4, Interesting)

netringer (319831) | about 9 years ago | (#13039005)

We have a Motorola HD cable DVR connected to a Sony HD TV using a DVI (DVR) to HDMI (TV) cable that doesn't pass the DRM signal. The only digital input the TV has is the HDMI input. The digital signal is visibly cleaner and sharper at 1080i than using Component video cables, but there are rare glitches. Occasionally the picture will get out of sync and you see two torn noisy SD images on the screen. You can fix that by simply changing channels and coming back. That gets the 1s and 0s in sync again.

Outside of that the DVR/TV connect is wont to have other head glitches once in while. During one of those the TV displayed a blue box over 2/3 of the screen with the message along the lines of "DEVICE NOT AUTHORIZED for digital connection. Please switch to analog inputs." Power cycles all around cleared that nonsense.

This what we have to look forward to - TVs that will decide if your other devices are authorized to be seen. Support the EFF [eff.org] to stop this madness...or vote with your wallet. Are you ready to pass on watching movies or other HQ content when the day comes soon that all devices work like this?

Re:I already had a preview of what's to come (1)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | about 9 years ago | (#13039077)

This what we have to look forward to - TVs that will decide if your other devices are authorized to be seen

No, it is the other way around. The device decides if it will display to the TV. The TV will display anything it is fed - video in the clear, or properly encrypted.

Re:I already had a preview of what's to come (1)

Internet_Communist (592634) | about 9 years ago | (#13039407)

huh? Where'd you get that cable? I better buy one now before they ban them.

The motorola boxes DO support HDCP, even though they don't have an HDMI port. People don't seem to realize aroun here that DVI has HDCP as well. I have a motorola DCT6412 btw..

They also have copy-protection the firewire outputs of those boxes.

I have a preview too. (1)

YesIAmAScript (886271) | about 9 years ago | (#13039413)

I have my HD-TiVo connected to my Sony TV with an HDMIHDMI cable. All the data goes across encrypted.

But I can't tell, it just works. No problems here.

I don't like the protection being enforced, but it works in my case. Sounds like you have bad equipment.

Note that the spec for protection doesn't even prohibit analog HD output, it only speaks of the digital output. So Toshiba is going farther than required here.

Simple; (4, Insightful)

Progman3K (515744) | about 9 years ago | (#13039015)

Just don't buy it.

The market will teach them to stop doing that.

Re:Simple; (1)

oldwolf13 (321189) | about 9 years ago | (#13039236)

Unfortunately this is not nearly enough.

You must not buy it, AND spread the word.

In this world where the media is owned like a pet, and acts accordingly, spreading a message like this becomes near impossible, except maybe to a few people, who end up not giving a shit.

Slashdot doesn't count as most readers already know about the problem.

People will buy this crap... (3, Insightful)

John Seminal (698722) | about 9 years ago | (#13039020)

And we will be stuck with DVD's that will only play in ways the manufacturors want. I wonder if one day there will be a small microchip on the DVD itself, in the center, which will be programmed the first time it is played, so it will only play on one DVD player, like what DVD's did with region locks on computers, after 3 changes it is locked.

But what does it matter anyways? Will there EVER be something that will take full use of the resolution? For example, take the cleanest looking 720p ESPN baseball game, how much higher can the resolution get? There must be some relationship between screen size and the perceptible difference. For example, can people see more detail on a 42" screen if one is 480p and the other is 720p? Maybe on a 120" projection screen it becomes noticable, but how much?

Truth be told, I would be more happy with the current 480p that DVD can play now if the studios treated customers better. No more re-releasing a DVD 3 times, with the first release being shitty and a buy it for $29 or have nothing attitude. Then 18 month later is the re-release "ultimate edition" which cleans the picture up. Coulnd't the studio release a clean picture the first time? And do away with fraud, for example the season 2 boxed set of Magnum PI has a bonus episode of the A-Team, and this episode looks fantastic, very clean. But if you get the boxed set of the A-Team, the other episodes don't look like they have as much resolution. Did the studio spend all their time making the one "free" episode look as good as possible, and neglected the rest because the studio knew the free one was going to sell the set?

And while we are at it, NO MORE FUKING "COPYWRITE" WARNINGS THAT CAN NOT BE FAST FORWARDED AND NO DISABLING OF THE MENU BUTTON DURING PREVIEWS!!! I fucking hate studios that lock me into 5 minutes of copywrite warnings, previews and the studio logo.

And here is a shocking idea. If the studio made a product the way people wanted it, then maybe there would be less copying. If a $30 dvd was not released 3 times, maybe the first version would not be copied like crazy because nobody wants to get fucked with a crippled version.

And I have a long memory. I have a bunch of music CD's with rot. I have one DVD that pixalates, and it did not do that in the past. None of my VHS tapes lock up or pixilate, they keep playing.

I almost wish the S-VHS caught on with near dvd quality. It would be hard to control an analog source. But that is why studios lie and tell us things like DVD's last forever, when in truth they get rot, or lies like no anaolg source could have the same resolution, which it could.

Re:People will buy this crap... (1)

askegg (599634) | about 9 years ago | (#13039136)

You are correct; there is a relationship between resolution, screen size and viewing distance. I have had numerous discussions with people who swear black and blue that HD will always be better, even when viewed on their 20 year old crap TV. In my opinion HD does ou no good in perceptible viewing quality unless the source is HD all the way from recording through editting and broadcasting to viewing and your display is either very large (have a look at the recent apple keynotes to an idea), or you site very close (but mum said I would ruin my eyes).

Re:People will buy this crap... (1)

ScytheBlade1 (772156) | about 9 years ago | (#13039321)

Actually, I'm one of those who CAN tell a difference.

Usually.

It's one of those thing you don't really notice, but here's how I noticed, and in a big way: 2 xboxes, one connected via HDTV cables, another via the standard composite, using a picture in picture, and splitting it down the center of the screen.

Everyone there (all 8 player) were amazed: the one on the left (HDTV cables connected) looked quite a bit better than the composite cables. Was the resolution better? No, but the colors really, really stood out.

I'd encourage you to give this a try yourself with a TV big enough to support something like that. See how it turns out.

You forgot EDTV (1)

tepples (727027) | about 9 years ago | (#13039345)

2 xboxes, one connected via HDTV cables, another via the standard composite, using a picture in picture, and splitting it down the center of the screen.

You're comparing HDTV (720p) to SDTV (480i or 576i). The article is about downsampling HDTV to EDTV (480p or 576p). What would have been the result in a 3-way comparison between HDTV (720p), EDTV (480p), and SDTV (480i)?

Re:People will buy this crap... (1)

mendaliv (898932) | about 9 years ago | (#13039309)

...a small microchip on the DVD itself, in the center, which will be programmed the first time it is played, so it will only play on one DVD player...

Sounds a lot like the old DIVX scam. [wikipedia.org] Just remember that it failed. We can hope that this will too.

I'm willing to bet that Blu-Ray and HD-DVD (4, Interesting)

multiplexo (27356) | about 9 years ago | (#13039047)

are going to go the way of DVD-Audio and SACD. Despite the fact that Sony has made almost every one of their DVD players capable of playing SACD and the large number of DVD-Audio players available most artists and labels are shunning these formats. One reason, despite their higher quality, has to be the onerous copy protection attached to each format, including such idiocy as disabling digital bass management at the player level thus requiring users to run six analog connections between their SACD/DVD players and their home theater receivers. Most consumers looked at this and said "fuck this higher quality multi-channel noise". And now labels are releasing their titles on the increasingly popular DualDisc format, which combines a standard CD with a DVD with Dolby 5.1 sound. Thus allowing you to play this in your car or on a home theater system and which doesn't require running a bunch of extra cables and purchasing an analog bass management system for those receivers that don't have analog bass management capabilities.

What does HD-DVD offer the average user? Most people like DVDs not only because they have better image quality than VHS, even if you connect to your TV with an RF cable or RCA composite jack and also because they're smaller than VHS tapes, more durable and easier to fast forward and frame by frame. Exactly what does HD-DVD add to this? Well, you get more data storage, so if you wanted to have a bunch of movies on one disc you could, but I don't think Hollywood is going to go for that. Or you can have super duper high definition movies, which most users don't have the equipment to take advantage of anyways. Cripple it with idiot DRM schemes and you make it even less attractive.

Re:I'm willing to bet that Blu-Ray and HD-DVD (1)

The Clockwork Troll (655321) | about 9 years ago | (#13039207)

I'm willing to bet that Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are going to go the way of DVD-Audio and SACD
That begs the question, what is the HDTV equivalent to a mediocre surround-sound remaster of a classic rock album that was a lackluster production to begin with?

I am imagining 2 hours of multiple-angle views of a tweaked Lynyrd Skynyrd sweating profusely in Birmingham and tripping over the chords to Free Bird.

Re:I'm willing to bet that Blu-Ray and HD-DVD (1)

servoled (174239) | about 9 years ago | (#13039248)

One reason, despite their higher quality, has to be the onerous copy protection attached to each format, including such idiocy as disabling digital bass management at the player level thus requiring users to run six analog connections between their SACD/DVD players and their home theater receivers. Most consumers looked at this and said "fuck this higher quality multi-channel noise".

No, most consumers don't even know what SACD and DVD-Audio are due to zero marketing for the formats. Even if they did they wouldn't know that digital bass management was disabled or that any other copy-protection schemes exist. You give consumers way way to much credit.

AND THE WINNER IS BLU RAY...by forfeiture (1)

marcybots (473417) | about 9 years ago | (#13039076)

The playstation 3 will connect to anything, PS3 will also play Blu-Ray DVD. So instead of getting a new expensive dvd player that wont play games and wont work with your current tv, you can get a expensive game system that is the latest and greatest and supports Blue Ray dvd that will support HDTV if you ever decide to upgrade....doubt this will take long to be sorted out on the free market. I am a gadget freak and a technoholic, but I dont own a HDTV, their to expensive, as buy a second car expensive. I will wait until they drop to about 500 for a nice 32 incher before I shell out my rent and food money for one...the tv I got now is adequate and Im not going to upgrade it just to watch blue ray dvds...heck I cant even maximize my enjoyment of regular dvds so both formats are a waste of time to worry about for me and 90% of Americans.

Correct me if I'm wrong (1)

UnknowingFool (672806) | about 9 years ago | (#13039149)

The purpose of HDMI is to provide both digital video and audio in the same cable. However most digital TVs don't have the necessary speakers to really take advantage of digital audio (DTS, AC3, etc). People who buy a digital TV most often have a receiver that handles the digital audio. Maybe for high end receivers using HDMI cuts down on the amount of cables, but on TVs, I can't really see much of an advantage over DVI.

Re:Correct me if I'm wrong (1)

bunco (1432) | about 9 years ago | (#13039343)

Correct.. the only advantage (as of now) is the single cable. I think it's a step in the right direction. There's a lot of extra bandwidth available for future proofing. IIRC, HD video eats up 20% of the total bandwidth.

If I read another post regarding audio + video being on same cable as being a bad thing, my head esplode. It's digital damnit.. the data either gets there or it doesn't.

HDMI is backwards compatible with DVI 1.0 spec. You'll find that HDMI -> DVI cables are very reasonable. I have not seen anything that breaks HDMI into DVI + WTFE audio format. However, I don't cable my gear that way so I couldn't care less.

I don't think we'll see too many HDMI-only players. Doing so would prevent people from making incremental upgrades to their home theater systems. I for one do not want to replace my receiver.

Recipe: How to kill a technology before it starts (3, Informative)

jaysedai (595022) | about 9 years ago | (#13039163)

Step 1 - Create format war...
Step 2 - Include outdated interactive capabilties...
Step 3 - Add overbearing copyprotection...
Step 4 - Lose tons of money!

Read my essay on the subject here:
http://www.fireflymovie.com/HighlyInteractiveHD_DV D.html [fireflymovie.com]

Well, I can strike Toshiba off my list of hardware (2, Interesting)

Rombladi (741221) | about 9 years ago | (#13039187)

Or someone will come up with a spiffy little adapter sooner than anyone expects.

Who even cares about HD-DVD anyway? (1)

The Lynxpro (657990) | about 9 years ago | (#13039286)


Let Toshiba kill its own alleged "standard" due to its own stupidity, I say.

1080p is the future, and Blu-Ray/Sony Playstation3 supports 1080p. There are many televisions coming out now and in the near future that supports 1080p, which means Blu-Ray will have an advantage over broadcast, cable, and satellite in terms of image quality for some time to come.

HD-DVD is cheap to manufacture per disc and that is why some studios support it, and supposedly has an advantage over the number of Blu-Ray houses. I say, "big deal." Circuit City's DIVX DVD "standard" also had more studios (plus Steven Spielberg and George Lucas - supposedly) supporting it than open DVD, and we all know what happened there. The end users - us - boycotted DIVX and Circuit City flushed it down the toilet after sustaining massive losses which also led to Circuit City's retail strength collapsing in the face of Best Buy's expansion. It will be no different here. Toshiba is going to sink with HD-DVD, and Microsoft better wake up to that little tidbit and decide not to release and Xbox360 1.5 model with HD-DVD built in. Microsoft could always order Blu-Ray drives from Matsushita if they didn't want to give Sony money per drive.

I gotta get one! (4, Funny)

Thunderstruck (210399) | about 9 years ago | (#13039307)

Now lets see... To get this thing feeding to my 1987 Black and White television, how many adaptors will I need? It's not cable ready, just has the two little screws in the back where I hook up the rabbit ears...

Anyone know how I can hook this new box up without disconnecting my Atari 2600?

Re:I gotta get one! (1)

mendaliv (898932) | about 9 years ago | (#13039324)

Anyone know how I can hook this new box up without disconnecting my Atari 2600?

You could probably build a 2600 cart that's really an adaptor, and just feed the video through the 2600.

That is once we've figured out how to hack this bitch.

HDMI encryption is going down faster than CSS! (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13039404)

A good number of attacks have already been found:

http://www.mail-archive.com/cypherpunks-moderated@ minder.net/msg11705.html [mail-archive.com]

http://apache.dataloss.nl/~fred/www.nunce.org/hdcp /hdcp111901.htm [dataloss.nl]

You just need to be able to stream the raw data to storage fast enough (or simply pass it on to your display device of choice).
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