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What Mac OS X Could Learn From Windows

timothy posted more than 9 years ago | from the how-to-humiliate-and-belittle-users dept.

GUI 403

An anonymous reader writes "It is almost unheard of to see something written about what OS X could learn from Windows but this details some good examples. And yes, it includes the right-click mouse." I find about half the suggestions compelling enough to be worth griping over, and the other half off-base, but YMMV.

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Multi Button Mouse (0)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117188)

Works FINE - just a aftermarket option. Command-Click, Jus' like Winders.

Re:Multi Button Mouse (1)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117299)

What ALWAYS gets me is the subtle difference in menu behavior for brwsing items - 'click n' hold' or just 'click -hover'...

Re:Multi Button Mouse (1)

cpt kangarooski (3773) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117444)

What do you mean? The Mac has used menus that remain open w/o keeping the mouse button down for a long time. Since MacOS 8, IIRC.

Re:Multi Button Mouse (1)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117732)

Subtle, subtle differences in sub-menu behavior - I always lose a menu and have to "re-click" when swithching between systems.

Of course, I don't mean the old Mac "fly-up" behavior from an un-clicked menu! That always reminded me of a snapping window-shade!

Re:Multi Button Mouse (2, Funny)

b1t r0t (216468) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117398)

Exactly. That's a hardware issue, not an operating system (OS X) issue. It's not OS X's fault that Apple ships computers with single-button mice.

Re:Multi Button Mouse (2)

FidelCatsro (861135) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117464)

Which is something i never had a problem with , All the apps are designed to use one button as best they can allowing me to set my mouse buttons to do what i want.
I personally have a logitech mx900 , Now before anyone jumps on with the one button mouse jokes .How many people enthusiast use the mouse that came with their pc (if they built it themselves then its a totally null argument).What i have discovered the main advantage of the one button mouse is that now my wife is far more proficient with keyboard shortcuts.

Re:Multi Button Mouse (1)

drsmithy (35869) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117818)

Works FINE - just a aftermarket option. Command-Click, Jus' like Winders.

The problem is not so much the mechanics (although Ctrl+click is not as nice as a button), it's the context menus in OS X add so little functionality, compared to Windows.

Context menus in Windows are a useful feature, in OS X they're little more than a novelty.

Re:Multi Button Mouse (1)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 9 years ago | (#13118037)

Well,
They make available the relevent features in the GUI shell. These are extensible by apps in OS X - just as say, WinZip extends the XP menu. Stuffit (fullversion) does this. You have fewer app vendors exploiting/polluting this on OS X.

Control keys? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13117206)

Apple - and the zealotry - need to concede that this battle is lost.

Huh? So Apple are meant to disrupt the muscle memory of practically every Apple user, by dropping a scheme that they have stuck to for decades, to make it slightly easier for a minority of people who use two different systems on a regular basis?

What complete and utter nonsense. What next? Drop the dock in favour of a taskbar that works like Windows... because "this battle is lost"? After all, if it doesn't work like Windows, then it must be a disaster!

Re:Control keys? (1)

FLAGGR (800770) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117834)

Well, considering that ctrl+click is so important in osx, and so many third party mice use two buttons, the battle is lost. The only reason I stick with a one button mouse is because their wireless ones are pretty looking, and have a funky cool design (the whole mouse being a button)

Two Button Mouse (5, Insightful)

jpiggot (800494) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117231)

Apple has had support for a two button mouse for the better part of twenty years. Just plug one it, and go...simple as that. The fact that most users chose not to spend the extra $30 to do so, tells you that they didn't really miss it.

Re:Two Button Mouse (2, Informative)

Kraeloc (869412) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117327)

$4.95 US at your local Fry's Electronics.

Re:Two Button Mouse (0)

jpiggot (800494) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117434)

Exactly. Doesn't sound like too much effort is required there, does it ?

Simple fact is, OSX is well designed enough that most users don't need all that "new-fangled" two button clicking -- even though the option is there if they want it.

Re:Two Button Mouse (1)

FLAGGR (800770) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117807)

Apple's current mouse is way cooler than 3rd party mice. Cool enough to trade in functionality for looks. Unfortunantly.

Re:Two Button Mouse (1)

falconwolf (725481) | more than 9 years ago | (#13118062)

Apple has had support for a two button mouse for the better part of twenty years. Just plug one it, and go...simple as that. The fact that most users chose not to spend the extra $30 to do so, tells you that they didn't really miss it.

When I switched from Macs to PCs two button mice is something I prefered and when I switch back to Macs I'll get me a two button mouse, I'd also like to get one that scrolls.

Well I didn't really switch from one to the other previously I used mostly Macs and now I mostly use a PC though I've got both.

Falcon

Re:Two Button Mouse (1)

loudgazelle (861612) | more than 9 years ago | (#13118348)

I know this debate will never be settled, but I figure my experience is worth sharing... take what you want from it.

I'm fairly proud of being able to say that I've never used windows on a regular basis except for when someone's paying me to. My current job is one of those situations, and I couldn't function at all without two buttons, because so many Windows applications make the right mouse button the only way to get to certain options.

When I get to choose my platform I use a Mac. I had a two-button mouse on my old machine, but it was an ADB mouse so I couldn't easily use it with my G5. When I bought the G5, I figured I would eventually end up buying a two-button USB mouse because I would miss having a two button mouse. I must have overestimated the amount that I use the right mouse button on my mac, 'cause I've had absolutely no desire or need for two buttons since I got it. I was kinda surprised at first, but I really don't feel like I'm missing a whole lot using a single-button mouse in OS X. All of my friends and most of my families have Macs and I can't think of a single one of them who has a two-button mouse. You really don't need one to get full use of your Mac.

How 'bout resizing windows from all corners (3, Insightful)

JPyObjC Dude (772176) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117232)

This one is a real bother for me on my with Macs. Anybody have a hack or 3rd party way of doing this.

FYI to non Mac'ers, Mac OSX only allows you to re-size windows at the top left corner of the window .

Re:How 'bout resizing windows from all corners (0)

p4ul13 (560810) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117269)

I think you mean bottom-left.

Still, I agree completely. As much as I love OS X, there's a few silly things like this that irk me.

Re:How 'bout resizing windows from all corners (3, Insightful)

mmkkbb (816035) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117300)

Actually, he and you both mean bottom-right.

Re:How 'bout resizing windows from all corners (1)

p4ul13 (560810) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117306)

and I think I meant bottom-right (sheesh preview). Then again, now that I think about it, you're correct if you're refering to the resize button. I think that button is fine, but the thing that bugs me is that the manual resize is only on the bottom right. I think it should be in all corners.

You mean the bottom right corner? (4, Informative)

rebug (520669) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117282)

I think the idea is that your cursor doesn't change into a dozen different zany pictures and adopt a dozen different functions depending on which part of the window you're pointing at.

It's all about simplicity.

Top left? (1)

fatalb7 (852308) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117365)

Here, it's at down right corner...

Apparently, WMMV. ;)

Re:How 'bout resizing windows from all corners (1)

xero314 (722674) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117385)

Hmm I guess for some it would be too difficult to move the top left corner where you want it and the resize the bottom right.

Re:How 'bout resizing windows from all corners (2, Informative)

azav (469988) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117922)

YES! Simply command or option click and drag would make a window resizable from that corner. That's been my feature request since 1987.

There IS a hack for this or something like it.

Lemme dig it up.

http://www.ocs.cz/OCSmartHacks/ [www.ocs.cz]

There ya go!

Re:How 'bout resizing windows from all corners (0, Flamebait)

blackmonday (607916) | more than 9 years ago | (#13118084)

(Dons flameproof suit)
I use a mac at home, and one thing I can't stand is iMovie, when I'm trying to crop a video clip. If you don't click on the tiny little markers precisely, you'll drag the whole window. Hate it!

Save buttons on toolbars? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13117233)

Well then, why not a "New" button on toolbars? Why not copy and paste? Why not a toolbar button extravaganza like Microsoft Office?

Because Mac users use menus and keyboard shortcuts for basic features, that's why.

Ummm, why do you get to decide this? (3, Insightful)

BarryJacobsen (526926) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117247)

From TFA (emphasis mine):
1) Compatible control keys. Switching between Mac and Windows this drives me nuts. I have to consciously think "command-C or control-C?" It shouldn't have to be that way. And if you're running RDC or VPC and copying and pasting between OS X and Windows!! Sheesh!

The problem isn't the labeling, it's the location of the keys used. I had to use a Windows PC today and I kept pressing Alt-C to copy. This is why it's a problem. If it was simply a matter of labeling, no worries, mate. Apple - and the zealotry - need to concede that this battle is lost.

Implementing this would rock many people's boats, so if Apple did make this change it'd have some serious domino affect on other keystrokes and applications that use them, but maybe it could be done with the switch to Intel, just to ease the pain slightly.


Umm, how exactly did Apple lose? Was there a national convention that decided that the main command issuing modifier key should be hit by the pinky? I much prefer to move my thumb from the space bar and hit command than move my pinky from the a to hit control. Why exactly do we need to conceed here? Because you think you you're right Mr. Author?

Re:Ummm, why do you get to decide this? (4, Insightful)

hunterx11 (778171) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117557)

The keyboard shortcuts using the command key on OS X are often analogous to their counterparts on windows which use the control key. The keyboard shortcuts using the control key on OS X are often the same as their Unix counterparts. Trying to change this would create an awful, nonsensical mess which would only confuse users and force them to use the mouse instead.

Re:Ummm, why do you get to decide this? (2, Insightful)

TomSawyer (100674) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117870)

The keyboard shortcuts using the command key on OS X are often analogous to their counterparts on windows which use the control key.

Well see that's where the author went wrong, too. The keyboard shortcuts using the control key on windows are often analogous to their counterparts on Mac OS circa 1984 which used the command key.

OSX can learn from Windows. (3, Insightful)

BigZaphod (12942) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117262)

OSX can learn by the bad example that Windows sets in terms of security, usability, stability, and well, just about everything else. Wait... In fact it seems like OSX has already learned those lessons!

Right click Drag and Drop of Files (1)

JPyObjC Dude (772176) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117265)

Really nice feature to use with apps like Tortoise SVN.

Re:Right click Drag and Drop of Files (1)

baka_boy (171146) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117467)

This is also one of the least-intuitive HCI events I've ever seen. Even as a "power user", I often find myself doing the drag-and-drop with the left mouse button, realizing my mistake, and having to start over with the right button.

It adds timing constraints (right click and drag vs. simple right click) that, like double clicking, auto-rename of a selected item, and a handful of other "convenience" actions, have been the result of far too many hours of my life being spent explaining various types of finger-judo to family, friends, and coworkers.

The entire user experience on the Mac has always been cleaner and simpler than it was on Windows, which is a major selling point for me, and a reason I recommended Macs to inexperienced users. OS X has been walking the line between the maintenance of this ease of use and the introduction of new "power tools" and features to help the workflow of pros, (see Expose, for example) but dumping lame interaction ideas from Windows into it won't help.

Multi-button mouse (4, Insightful)

Master Of Ninja (521917) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117294)

I think this writer still hasn't got it. OSX has supported multi button mice for ages - I have a 5 button Microsoft bluetooth mouse working perfectly with 10.3, making expose easy to use.

The whole point of the one button mouse is to make it easy to use for beginners, and to prevent developers being lazy when designing programs. And using expose with a single mouse button only needs for the screen corners to be set up to trigger the actions.

While some of the points seem relevant, others are completely off the mark.

Re:Multi-button mouse (4, Interesting)

bill_mcgonigle (4333) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117371)

The whole point of the one button mouse is to make it easy to use for beginners, and to prevent developers being lazy when designing programs.

Those are two important points, but don't underestimate the RSI aspect. When RSI is a risk, the way to reduce it is to drive the action back to bigger muscles.

The two button mouse requires you to use the muscles in an individual finger, and worse, individual tendons which exacerbate carpal tunnel syndrome. (multi-button trackballs do better). With the 1-button Apple mouse you can use your whole hand to click. With the current 0-button Apple mouse, you can use your whole arm.

This is good ergonomics but it requires a more careful user interface design to utilize.

Re:Multi-button mouse (1)

alan_dershowitz (586542) | more than 9 years ago | (#13118280)

The whole point of the one button mouse is to...prevent developers being lazy when designing programs.

This is a completely arbitrary value judgement. How a context menu works is completely understood, and has proven to be incredibly useful and a great timesaver. It's not even true anyway, because context menus have existed for a very, very long time in the Macintosh world via keypress combinations.

I don't disagree that having two mouse buttons may have ergonomic problems, but compared to the keyboard I bet it almost doesn't matter.

Re:Multi-button mouse (1)

falconwolf (725481) | more than 9 years ago | (#13118257)

I think this writer still hasn't got it. OSX has supported multi button mice for ages - I have a 5 button Microsoft bluetooth mouse working perfectly with 10.3, making expose easy to use.

Though I haven't used it in a long tyme my PowerMac running MacOS 8.5 has a two button mouse.

Falcon

Move On, Nothing To See Here (0)

jpiggot (800494) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117296)

I don't really buy much of what this guy is saying. If he doesn't like pressing "Command" instead of "Alt" - he can go into the system options and remap the two keys, easily enough. I've seen plenty of toolbars with a "Save" button; Microsoft Word springs to mind. There's already support for a multi-button mouse. All documents are shown in Save dialogs, because you don't want to duplicate the same filename even if it has a different .ext attached to it. And there's a trace of smugness in his "I suggested that Apple include context-sensitive help, and they did so"

Overall, I'm just not impressed. If these are the changes that'll make Longhorn the (all together now) "Apple-Killer" -- well, the future is already here, and it's sitting on your couch next to the fried chicken.

Apple does that too! (0, Redundant)

daviq (888445) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117311)

Compatible control keys.
I learned how to use apple*c to copy and others in under 2 days.
Save button on toolbars.
Ever heard of apple*s?
A multi button mouse
my five button is compatable!
Only show relevant file types in open and save dialogs.
I've never needed it!
Sort folders to top of directory listings
Their is NO need!

I'd say... (4, Insightful)

Otter (3800) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117317)

Changing from CMD to Ctrl: Arguable, but as for "maybe it could be done with the switch to Intel, just to ease the pain slightly" -- that's just silly. I don't understand why people are convinced that when Intel CPUs are put inside, the OS is suddenly going to change to Windows. (Except for the Slashbots, who think it will suddenly change to Linux.) The switch to Intel will have zero effect on UI.

Save button on toolbars: This is hardly an OS X issue. Lots of Mac apps have them. I can't remember if iApps do or don't, but there's no big deal there.

Only showing relevant file types: The current method is classic Steve. You show all files because the user knows they exist and you don't want to confuse him. Advantages both ways.

Sort directories to the top: If that's a problem, you probably have your tree setup poorly. Again, one can argue this both ways.

How about a fast way to lock the computer? (0, Troll)

YetAnotherAnonymousC (594097) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117323)

...like something equivalent to CTRL-ALT-DELETE, ENTER (does "lock computer").

Re:How about a fast way to lock the computer? (4, Informative)

Jord (547813) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117463)

Go into your keychain and turn on the menubar addon. Then you can lock your screen with two clicks of your one-button mouse.

Simple.

Re:How about a fast way to lock the computer? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13118026)

Or lock your screensaver. Tie starting the screensaver to a function key for one click locking, or to the lower right corner of your screen for locking with a simple mouse gesture.

Too easy.

Why go through all that hassle? (1)

wbren (682133) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117513)

OSX should just feature the Windows Key+L shortcut.

Re:How about a fast way to lock the computer? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13117631)

or just hit Windows button - L. a bit faster.

Agreed that OS X should have a fast way to do this by default.

Re:How about a fast way to lock the computer? (1)

ciroknight (601098) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117793)

Or how about "Apple+Shift+Q"-> Log off. Or set the screen saver to lock the screen. Don't like screensavers? Use the blank one, set the time to low, and be done.

Re:How about a fast way to lock the computer? (1)

TomSawyer (100674) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117809)

How about a fast way to lock the computer?

I've found it handy to set my top right corner to trigger my password protected screen saver. You can do this from the Dashboard & Exposé preference panel.

Re:How about a fast way to lock the computer? (1)

sootman (158191) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117843)

1) System Preferences -> Security-> [x] Require password to wake this computer from sleep or screensaver

2) System Preferences -> Screen Saver -> Hot Corners. Set one to 'Start Screen Saver' (I have that in the bottom left, and bottom right is 'disable screen saver', which I think were the old (AfterDark) conventions.)

Now: wanna lock your computer? throw the mouse into a corner. The screensaver will come on and you need a password to return to the desktop. Voila--locked! Once you start using it, you'll find it's even easier and faster than c-a-d+enter/space. Windows-L (in XP only) is as fast but requires accuracy on the keyboard. The Mac way requires you to push the mouse any distance in a general direction. Put those mile wide croners [asktog.com] to use!

one way to do it (2, Informative)

rebug (520669) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117889)

In the Desktop & Screensaver prefpane, set one of the hot corners to "Start Screen Saver," then check "Require password to wake this computer from sleep or screensaver." You're likely to get pissed about setting it off accidentally all the time.

I use a simple AppleScript
tell application "ScreenSaverEngine"
activate
end tell
named "Lock Screen" that I launch with LaunchBar. Cmd-space, lo, done.

Re:one way to do it (1)

FosterKanig (645454) | more than 9 years ago | (#13118123)

This is off topic, but since I start at -1 I don't really care.

Applescript is one of the best things about Macs. The language can be infuriating if you are used to other languages but it is still real easy to set up basic little scripts to eliminate tedious chores.

I store all my music on an old Bondi iMac and I access it through other computers in my house. I created a little script that mounts the remote volume and then starts iTunes. One click and my music is ready to go. But I rarely have to do that because I have it set as a "Open at Login" doodad. It's these little things that make my love my Mac. Fanboy? Nah, I bitch about too many things they do wrong, but I still think it's the best thing out there.

4 and 5 make nine (1)

mmkkbb (816035) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117324)

A curious juxtaposition:

4) Only show relevant file types in open and save dialogs. For those who like seeing every file that's every existed in their Documents folder, give them a checkbox to show all files. But personally, if I am opening a Pages file, I don't want to see all my iMovie, Excel, iDVD etc files. And OS X already knows which are which because non-related ones are greyed out.

This I dig, especially if you can filter down the list with a substring match or regular expressions.

5) Sort folders to top of directory listings I know that we don't go folder mining as much since we got Spotlight, so I won't labor on about this one.

Oh, so if you have your nice trimmed open/save dialog you still need to scroll past all the folders to figure out what file you want to open.

Re:4 and 5 make nine (1)

cpt kangarooski (3773) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117524)

This I dig, especially if you can filter down the list with a substring match or regular expressions.

Well, maybe allowing filtering if deliberately entered, but not by default. It's better to show all files normally, but grey them out. Hiding things makes the UI seem more inconsistant.

5) Sort folders to top of directory listings I know that we don't go folder mining as much since we got Spotlight, so I won't labor on about this one.

Feh. If I want to sort a folder alphabetically, that means alphabetically, not 'folders first then everything else!' Sort by kind is how one gets folders to all appear together.

Who cares about apples 1 button mouse? (1)

redog (574983) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117325)

Genocide to the Caps lock key!
Is SUN is the only one truly with a clue about the keyboard?

Re:Who cares about apples 1 button mouse? (1)

Jord (547813) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117493)

Apple has a clue also. You can remap the caps lock to anything you want. I remapped it to control like any sane vi'er would :)

Re:Who cares about apples 1 button mouse? (1)

snolan (604108) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117875)

So - how do I go about doing this? System Preferences/Keyboard has nothing about it (at least not in 10.3.9).

Re:Who cares about apples 1 button mouse? (1)

Jord (547813) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117967)

It was added to the OS in Tiger but there are several third party apps for pre-Tiger versions.

Re:Who cares about apples 1 button mouse? (1)

belroth (103586) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117887)

I remapped it to control like any sane vi'er would :)
Awww come on now, this is too easy:
If you were sane you wouldn't use vi!. ;-D

Sorry, couldn't resist.

More seriously it's about defaults. You can customize OS X, Windows and Linux to behave mostly like you want - but you may need to know a fair bit to do it.
e.g. I have alt-gr mapped to plain alt under windows so I can reduce the RSI and that was an obscure registry hack. I would just like all operating systems to be easier to customize - and to be a bit saner out of the box.

Re:Who cares about apples 1 button mouse? (1)

Jord (547813) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117993)

Fortunately this is not an obscure registry hack in Tiger. It is part of the keyboard preferences.

Making it configurable seems to be the best of both worlds. It defaults to the way most the keyboards work and for those who desire a different functionality it is a couple of mouse clicks away.

Same goes with Apple's decision for a one button mouse. Works fine but if you desire increased functionality it is a short trip to the store.

Let's see here (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13117345)

Compatible control keys

No. Making things easier on those who use both Mac OS and Windows at the expense of those who are used to just Mac OS is not a good move, now is it.

Save button on toolbars

I guess they could make it optional...

A multi button mouse

The horse is dead tell you. Show its carcass some respect.

Only show relevant file types in open and save dialogs

I'd say it's better for users if it doesn't look like some files are suddenly missing from their folders. And as stated, the dialog won't let you open files the application can't handle anyway.

Sort folders to top of directory listings

I prefer alphabetical sorting. I don't find your arguments compelling enough to change things.

More context sensitive help

Kind of what we used to have with the help balloons that no developer ever wanted to write help text for?

scroll wheel (1)

fideli (861469) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117353)

From TFA, 6th comment:
Add a second mouse button and the mouse morons will start crying for a third, a forth, a fifth. Forget the second button - ctrl works well enough. But give us a scroll wheel!
I agree whole heartedly. Not sure how to do this and maintain one button, but a scroll wheel is definitely long overdue.

Re:scroll wheel (2, Informative)

Jord (547813) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117576)

Buy an aftermarket mouse and plug it in. Instant scroll wheel.

Re:scroll wheel (1)

revscat (35618) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117698)

I use a Mac both at home and at work. Both have mice that have scroll wheels on them, and both work just fine.

NOOOOO!!!!!!!! (4, Insightful)

rokzy (687636) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117358)

Mac already supports right-click, and more. in fact, my iBook scroll pad has the functionality of a mouse with 5 buttons and 2 scroll wheels. but I usually use my Apple single-click buletooth mouse. it's enough.

REQUIRE just one button, SUPPORT multiple is the Mac way. and it's also the best way. anyone who doesn't understand this is ignorant.

Re:NOOOOO!!!!!!!! (1, Informative)

alan_dershowitz (586542) | more than 9 years ago | (#13118197)

It's not enough to have the software support for a second mouse button, the OS interface and apps have to support it.

This is a source of endless frustration for me on the Macintosh. The finder is missing endless opportunities to make using it easier via context menus. In some places it does nothing, in other places both mouse buttons do the same thing. This is a MAJOR usability flaw. It represents a basic lack of understanding of what a context button is for.

Quicktime. Second mouse button does the same thing as the first. iTunes. Missing several useful options on the context menus. Finder: needs FAR FAR more context menus.

By Apple apologists' own admission, adding these features will in no way affect the people who have no second mouse button. But it will be a massive help for the people who do actually want to use it.

Re:NOOOOO!!!!!!!! (1)

ksheff (2406) | more than 9 years ago | (#13118377)

adding these features will in no way affect the people who have no second mouse button.

BZZZZT.

Wrong. All you have to do is hold down the mouse button for a couple seconds (not click and release) and the action that would be performed by right clicking is done. All you're complaining about is not enough controls that have something associated with that action. It's not Apple's (or MSFT's) fault if the developers don't use all the features of the OS they are writing programs for.

A few gripes about the article... (4, Insightful)

applegoddess (768530) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117416)

1. Control keys can be changed in the preferences for the OS, and for RDC and VPC as well. Plus, it wouldn't be horrendously difficult to change the key mapping to make it more convenient as well.

2. Save buttons on toolbars are up to the developers. And in all honesty, I think a lot more people use keyboard commands to save, instead of clicking on a tiny little button in a toolbar that not even every app has. This definitely is not an OS specific thing...they're available if you need it, but nobody's forcing anyone to use it..

3. My Logitech MX518 works on my Macs. So does my MX900 bluetooth mouse. And all of the other multi-button mice I've ever bothered to connect via USB or bluetooth. end of argument, unless you're trying to say that Apple should ship multi-button mice with their computers. They shouldn't. There's almost nothing worth having a multi-button mouse for that you can't do with a one button mouse, or with the keyboard (except when it comes to gaming and the likes). Now, with the coming Intel Macs, maybe they should. But that's only assuming the person buying the machine will install another OS on it as well.

4. Why on earth do you need to see only the relevant file types? Sometimes OS X will grey out the ones that aren't relevant or not selectable, but what good is it going to do? Afraid of accidentally naming your file a name that already exists?!

5. Useless. In all honesty, Spotlight/Quicksilver/Launchbar sort of get rid of the need for that, like the article mentioned.

6. Why on earth is this supposed to be a Windows thing? It's not. It's in OS X. Blame the developer(s) if it's lacking in the software you're using and complaining about.

Frankly it sounds like the author is just an idiot, but that's my two cents. All of his points are almost completely irrelevant or not applicable.
On top of that, might I add that Microsoft and Apple have copied each other too many times to count, and it's not necessarily good.

Re:A few gripes about the article... (1)

belroth (103586) | more than 9 years ago | (#13118374)

1. Control keys can be changed in the preferences... (snip)
Agreed, but a more obvious (to a new user) method or changing the default would make it easier for people to switch from Windows. (Which may not be the point but would make Apple happy).
2. Save buttons on toolbars are up to the developers. And in all honesty, I think a lot more people use keyboard commands to save, instead of clicking on a tiny little button in a toolbar that not even every app has. This definitely is not an OS specific thing...they're available if you need it, but nobody's forcing anyone to use it..
From the article "I don't think any of the Apple software ever gives you the option to include a Save button." so he's referring to Apple software, not 3rd party. So not OS specific, just written by Apple. He also makes the point about a print button being present when this is used much less than the save option.
3. My Logitech MX518 works on my Macs....(snip)
Agreed, this isn't an OS issue - maybe Apple should consider making multi-button mice, at least as an option.
4. Why on earth do you need to see only the relevant file types? Sometimes OS X will grey out the ones that aren't relevant or not selectable, but what good is it going to do? Afraid of accidentally naming your file a name that already exists?!
Maybe because I don't want to open movies or mp3 in a spreadsheet. This does work well in windows - you can change to filter to show all files if you want to but normally you see files relevant to the app. This could work the same in OS X if you really do want to open a spreadsheet in iTunes...
5. Useless. In all honesty, Spotlight/Quicksilver/Launchbar sort of get rid of the need for that, like the article mentioned.
Agreed, just because people are used to it doesn't mean it makes sense. As somebody else said that should be covered by sorting by type. I prefer the approach where the dialog has separate file and folder controls anyway.

I don't care which OS is being lauded or lambasted - all the ones I've come across have had things I thought good and bad. The trick is only to copy the good ones. To do that you have to decide which is which though.

Multibutton mouse (1)

Auckerman (223266) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117427)

Creating an interface that doesn't require the detailed knowledge of how to use a multi-button mouse is a GOOD THING. It is one of the finer details of Mac OS, always has been. It forces application developers to make easier to use and understand applications rather than going for flashy looking stuff that might be quicker to use, but has a much higher learning curve. That being said, this five button mouse on my iBook works fine. Middle click opens in new tabs, right click pulls up contextual menus and I have the additional buttons set for Expose.

Now on to his other critiques.

Compatible control keys

I don't use VPC, so this has never been an issue for me.

Save button on toolbar: Irrelevent. Toolbars a for very often needed options. Things the app was designed to do. In pretty much every single app I've used on OS X it won't let you close a window unless you tell it to save or not to save.

Only show relevant file types in open and save dialogs. I'm not sure what version of OS X he's using but it does that in a better way than he suggests. The user isn't left wondering "where did my file go". Things that are useable by that app are bold and things that are not useable by that app are dimmer and you can't even click on them

Sort folders to top of directory listings This assumes that the person is always first and foremost looking for a nested directory. You CAN set on either a universal basis or a folder by folder basis and ordering sort you want.

More context sensitive help As long as things like clippy are discouraged, that's not so bad. Though, I've always found how Windows tries to hold my hand very annoying and frustrating. Window's devopers aren't very good at guessing what people want to do and it shows.

Control key placement (1, Informative)

kenneth_martens (320269) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117436)

From the article:
Compatible control keys. Switching between Mac and Windows this drives me nuts. I have to consciously think "command-C or control-C?" ... The problem isn't the labeling, it's the location of the keys used. I had to use a Windows PC today and I kept pressing Alt-C to copy. This is why its a problem.
I'm a recent switcher (I bought my Mac Mini the day after Tiger came out) and my biggest gripe is the control key placement. I love my Mac to death, but it's useless for any text editing because I use a lot of keyboard shortcuts. Pressing Ctrl + C on a PC keyboard to copy text is easy; Command + C on my Mac requires me to twist my fingers because the Command key is too close to the alphabetic keys to be a natural reach.

I don't think it's just a matter of getting used to it, and of breaking old habits. No, the placement of the Command key really is detrimental to its use, at least as far as my fingers are concerned. Until today I've been trying to live with it, but now I'm going to find a way to remap the keys so as to move Command farther to the left.

Re:Control key placement (1)

Jord (547813) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117531)

Use your thumb for the Command key instead of your pinky. Makes a big difference.

Re:Control key placement (1)

kenneth_martens (320269) | more than 9 years ago | (#13118155)

Use your thumb for the Command key instead of your pinky. Makes a big difference.
I'll try that. It sounds like good advice. Perhaps my problem is user error, but in my defense neither my Mac Mini nor my Kensington keyboard came with a guide to typing.

Re:Control key placement (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13117633)

Pressing Ctrl + C on a PC keyboard to copy text is easy; Command + C on my Mac requires me to twist my fingers because the Command key is too close to the alphabetic keys to be a natural reach.

See that funny little key on the right side of the space bar? The one that looks like a command key?

Re:Control key placement (1)

kenneth_martens (320269) | more than 9 years ago | (#13118156)


See that funny little key on the right side of the space bar? The one that looks like a command key?

That's the one I'm talking about. It's too close. The physical size of my fingers means I need it about two inches farther left. But the other advice I just got is to use my thumb instead of my pinky to hit the Command key. That might work. (Why isn't there a manual with these kinds of tips?)

Nit-Picking (2, Insightful)

West VA Flamer (638423) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117448)

Most of these seemed to point out litte small niy-picky things. With the save button, I know when im working on a document its easier just to hit Commad-S from the keyboard then to go to the mouse and hit a button on a tool-bar. I usually turn any sort of tool-bar off though to save screen space. Multi-Button mouses? God. The mac is compatible out of the box but its more of a statement of how simple it is to use then anything else. Moving folders up to the top is just a pain in the ass if you are trying to find a file in a folder full of other folders and files. Say if the file has a name that begins with "F" you have to hit the F-Key a bunch of times to get past all the folders that have names starting with it to get into the files. Wastes more time like that then it could possilbley save, plus you can sort by type. And anyway, who reads documentation for a Apple product?

most of these features already exist (1)

jessecurry (820286) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117545)

and one of the things that I hate about windows is that folders sort to the top of directory listings, it's like I have to go through the alphabet twice.
And I would be really upset if Apple changes the command key, I like it where it is, anyone that can't easily switch between Windows and OS X has some type of personal problem. I use VNC all day and have no trouble at all copying and pasting between my Mac and Windows boxes.
I suppose that the option to only display relevant files types would be nice, but I'd hope that it is just an option, not the standard. If I'm not mistaken I've even seen some applications do this.
And I also have no need for save buttons on tool bars, I rarely save anything by using the menu, it's almost always a command-s or I just wait to be done with the document. Most of the time if I'm creating anything I'm using the keyboard anyways, even with photoshop.

Pretty much there already and caveats. (2, Insightful)

azav (469988) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117561)

1. There are tools to remap keys. I'm sure the command and control keys can be switched as well. Yes, you do need to look for the tool or option.

2. Idiotic. Command S is not easy enough? Tool bars are generally evidence of poor design. You memorize the shortcut keys for your frequent options. Yes, there can be designs where there are too many keys to remember but SAVE? Oh command S people.

3. control click anyone? why a multi button mouse when control click works just as well and doesn't confuse new users?

4. Interesting, I'll agree.

5. This is horrible. Totally completely stupid and horrible. You sort by name and just TYPE the name of your folder and then press command down arrow to open it. Why in hell do people want an alphabetical sort to separate any files from folders? How do you know when the folders stop and the files start? What if you have more than one screen of folders? Folders at the top is something I really really think is pretty damn stupid as it breaks the metaphor of alphabetical sorting. Oh, if you want it, PathFinder, a finder replacement, has it

6. Um, ok. Software authors heed to increase their budget to have a copywriter write the context sensetive help.

And on : - Existing files selectable in Save dialog
This sucks. I want to click in the file list to set my focus there so i can command up or command down arrow into and out of folders. But now, when I click to set focus, if I hit a file name, I mistakenly replace my current file's filename with that of another file and if I press save, I run the risk of overwriting it and deleting that other file. Super lame.

My nominations (1)

Experiment 626 (698257) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117572)

Finder needs an equivalent to View, List in Windows Explorer. I don't want the full detailed listing, nor the big icons, nor the NeXT-like view. Just a nicely sorted list of filenames with a small icon next to them. While we're at it, View, Thumbnails would be pretty handy too.

Also QuickTime should seriously stop regarding full-screen playback as a "Pro" feature to charge extra for. Windows Media Player may be evil, but at least it can play a full-screen AVI file.

Krusty says (1)

splatterboy (815820) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117579)

The Simpsons: "ooh look at me, I can't program my vcr, I can't open a bag of airline peanuts... I'm a freakin' moron"!

TFA: "ooh look at me, I can't switch to a different mouse, I can't figure out copy/paste/save commands... I'm a freakin' technology columnist"!
clowns...

The points (1)

zhiwenchong (155773) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117587)

1) Compatible control keys. Switching between Mac and Windows this drives me nuts. I have to consciously think "command-C or control-C?" It shouldn't have to be that way. And if you're running RDC or VPC and copying and pasting between OS X and Windows!! Sheesh!

The problem isn't the labeling, it's the location of the keys used. I had to use a Windows PC today and I kept pressing Alt-C to copy. This is why it's a problem. If it was simply a matter of labeling, no worries, mate. Apple - and the zealotry - need to concede that this battle is lost.
Implementing this would rock many people's boats, so if Apple did make this change it'd have some serious domino affect on other keystrokes and applications that use them, but maybe it could be done with the switch to Intel, just to ease the pain slightly.


I think this is a matter of personal preference. The Cmd key actually makes a lot of sense -- it's much closer to the alphabets than the Ctrl key, so if you use a lot of keyboard shortcuts, you don't have to strain your hands as much (particularly if you've small hands).

Ditto for people who use their Caps Lock keys as a Ctrl key. (You can actually activate this mode in Tiger).

2) Save button on toolbars. I don't think any of the Apple software ever gives you the option to include a Save button. Print button yes, Save button no. A little test - raise your hand if you save your work more often than you print it? Ah, so I'm not alone. Good. You can put your hands down. Thank you.


I suppose newbies might agree with you. Most of us use Cmd-S.

3) A multi button mouse. And you thought I'd say two. Why stop at two? Especially with things like Exposé, Dashboard and Spotlight. They're just crying out for single click activation from a mouse. Ok. So this isn't a Windows feature per sé, but still is needed.


Get The Mouse [dvforge.com] .

4) Only show relevant file types in open and save dialogs. For those who like seeing every file that's every existed in their Documents folder, give them a checkbox to show all files. But personally, if I am opening a Pages file, I don't want to see all my iMovie, Excel, iDVD etc files. And OS X already knows which are which because non-related ones are greyed out.


Okay, I happen to think that the Mac OS X file dialog is pretty lame. Opening files requires too many mouse-clicks. In Windows, I can select a wildcard mask, and have autocompletion in the textbox.

Spotlight makes it slightly more bearable, but not by much.

Tab completion is nice, but only works for paths (to activate this, type / or ~ or Cmd-Shift-G, and tab away).

5) Sort folders to top of directory listings I know that we don't go folder mining as much since we got Spotlight, so I won't labor on about this one.


The only reason folders end up in the middle is because Folder starts with F. Heh heh.

But you're right.

6) More context sensitive help. I notice since I first raised this two years ago, more of it has crept into OS X. So I guess at least I can't be flamed for this one!


OS X doesn't have a very good help system I have to admit.

Point-for-point response (1)

HTH NE1 (675604) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117636)

  1. Compatible control keys.

    The problem isn't the labeling, it's the location of the keys used. I had to use a Windows PC today and I kept pressing Alt-C to copy.


    There have been third-party tools to remap keyboards for a long time. I'm sure there are a few for Mac OS X as well. You shouldn't have to make all Mac-only users switch just to appease the Windows-switchers and dual-platform users.

  2. Save button on toolbars.

    So what should it look like, hmm? Surely not the anachronistic 3.5" disk long banished from the platform.

  3. A multi button mouse.

    Existing aftermarket mice work just fine, and they both aren't round and have actual buttons on them!

  4. Only show relevant file types in open and save dialogs.

    This might have some merit. It may be a mistake to show disabled options, even files, if there's no way in that instance of the window to make the files selectable.

    However, it does give you information over what files exist so you don't name a file the same as another that isn't associated with this program.

    Maybe a sorting or suppression option.

  5. Sort folders to top of directory listings

    Sort by type isn't sufficient?

  6. More context sensitive help.

    I haven't really had a problem that way. The system is easy enough that I generally don't need help.
Well, that's my breakdown.

Fine, but let me turn it back off (2, Interesting)

greed (112493) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117638)

Make Macs look more like Windows, and I'll never upgrade again. I don't like how Windows works, regardless of all the security issues (both design and bug). Windows could be 100% flawless and I still won't like it, or anything else that works the same way.

Or, perhaps, someone can tell me how to get XP SP 2 to do any of the following:

  • Sort directories with all other file types
  • Show all files in a directory, rather than just the ones that match some magic pattern
  • Separate file name from file type
  • Use an menu accelerator key that's close to the space bar, rather than near the edge of the keyboard

OK, on that last one, tweaking the keymap would do it. (And that would solve the article's author's problem with Command vs. Control--swap Windows and CTRL on his Winbox keymap, or Control and Command on his Mac.)

And I don't want stuff that only works for the current load/save dialog, like switching to list view. Yeesh.

At least most Windows apps finally stopped defaulting to saving in the directory the program is in, that was really dumb.

Not that Macs are perfect, either, but they're closer to how I want to use a machine than Windows is.

Recursive news (2, Informative)

guet (525509) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117663)

1) Compatible control keys. Switching between Mac and Windows this drives me nuts. I have to consciously think

OS X is not Windows, strangely enough, some people even choose it above Windows because it is different.

2) Save button on toolbars. I don't think any of the Apple software ever gives you the option to include a Save button.

Learn to use Cmd-S, buttons for every command is a Windows thing, though it has crept in in some programs like MS Word.

3) A multi button mouse. And you thought I'd say two.

Plug in your PC mouse.

Only show relevant file types in open and save dialogs. For those who like seeing every file that's every existed in their Documents folder, give them a checkbox to show all files.

This is debatable, but the only one of his points which might have some foundation - it would be handy to be able to winnow files in the open dialog. Presumably the justification is that files should always be visible, even if they're not directly available in a certain program.

In fact in Tiger you can do this in a neat way with Smart Folders (create one for only word documents, one for images etc, then put them in your sidebar or someplace easy to find from the open dialog).

Sort folders to top of directory listings I know that we don't go folder mining as much since we got Spotlight, so I won't labor on about this one.

Click the 'Kind' column in column view, or smart folders again.

More context sensitive help. I notice since I first raised this two years ago, more of it has crept into OS X. So I guess at least I can't be flamed for this one!

I assume this means tooltips. Don't like them myself, as I feel they encourage GUI designers to litter the screen with cryptic buttons with the excuse that users can use tool-tips to decode them.

Now why is it that I can list all the features I want Leopard to have and as long as none of them are from Windows, its cool?
But dare suggest OS X needs a feature already in Windows and the world comes down on you.


Additional features are not always welcome, efficient or even necessary.

What's far more important than an extensive feature list is that features are well integrated, consistent and well thought out - throughout an operating system and the applications. If I have one major criticism of Apple recently it's that they have forgotten to keep things simple and consistent in their myriad home-grown apps.

And if you can take the heat, what would you like to see Apple borrow from Windows?

There are undoubtedly a few ideas in Windows (which haven't already been borrowed already : ) which would be great on OS X. Some parts of the Finder could do with help for a start (Network, thumbnail browsing etc). Any long time Windows users like to suggest some? (No, things which are just different don't count, there has to some things which work better).

Sometimes I think Slashdot articles would be more thoughtful and insightful if the editors just linked to comments from previous stories rather than uninformed nonsense like this.

What mac should learn from *NIX (1)

NotoriousQ (457789) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117667)

How about focus follows mouse?

And how about a decent package manager? Yesterday I saw an attempted installation of iWork on a friend's machine, and it kept telling him that it was already installed and refused to install one off the CD. He was certain that it was not installed.

Re:What mac should learn from *NIX (1)

aaroneous88 (809876) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117847)

Just delete any iWork installer receipts in the directory /Library/Receipts. That's how OSX keeps track of install packages. Easy enough.

Re:What mac should learn from *NIX (1)

NotoriousQ (457789) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117958)

After a quck search, we did that. I figured that is exactly what the Receipts directory was for. However, same error persisted.

enough with the mouse!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13117743)

You know, I bought a machine for running Linux the other day, and it DIDN'T COME WITH ANY MOUSE AT ALL! or a KEYBOARD! OMGLOLWTF!! PCS ARE THE SUCKS!11!

You there with the 50-button mouse (the one you bought SEPARATELY) complaining about the one-button mouse on macs: yes, YOU ARE AWESOME. Because you use a 50-button mouse, YOU TOTALY ROCK! Now. Just take that sucker and plug it into your Mac. OMG!! It works.. wait, you don't even OWN a Mac? WHY ARE YOU WHINING!

And you: the X Windows user. You too are a GOD AMONG MEN. I don't dispute that. Pasting with the middle mouse button is exactly like how the scriptures said JESUS would paste content. YES! That time you accidentally sent a porn link to your boss had NOTHING to do with the usability of this configuration, no siree.

You there: calling your mom "stupid" behind her back because she hasn't mastered right-clicking on your SWEET windows box. Yes, she IS dumb. Because this is a skill EVERYBODY should have mastered before the age of 12. Somehow your mom missed the COURT-ORDERED euthenasia for people who can't right-click.

The one-button mac mouse is not a problem! You guys just don't like people to know how to operate a computer without being "trained" first. It makes you LESS SPECIAL that grandpa doesn't need to figure out which of two UNMARKED BUTTONS are gonna get him his email. TOO BAD!

Right click (1)

FLAGGR (800770) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117781)

I switched from gentoo to OSX, and I'm liking most of apple's changes, like dock instead of multidesktop (it works better, even if it isn't as cool), etc etc, but the one button mouse is a pain. I hate having to ctrl+click everything. Alas, I must use Apple's wireless mouse, because it's beautiful. Third party ones don't compare. If Apple can design a mouse as cool as the one button mouse, then I will buy it in a heartbeat (If you know how the one button mouse works, you know what I mean, its neato)

Re:Right click (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13118032)

MacMice, apparently now called DVForge, sells a bluetooth and a USB mouse that looks like Apple's with the addition of a scroll wheel and a split front casing for two wheels.

I have no idea how well they work, but the design actually looks great.

Personally I like one button myself.

One thing though: drag and drop between windows (1)

mccalli (323026) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117859)

The one thing I prefer in Windows to OS X is dragging out of a visible window and dropping on to a currently hidden window.

On Windows: drag icon to the taskbar's tab for the target process, wait for the list of open windows to appear, drag to the relevant entry and that window will pop to the front. Nice - notice you're still just using the mouse.

On OS X: start to drag the icon, then hit F9 with your other hand to invoke Expose, choose the relevant window, wait for the window to come to the front and then release. Notice how you had to use both keys and the mouse there.

That's pretty much it on the UI front for me. I would definitely like to see Apple incorporate the Windows-like mouse-only behaviour though.

Cheers,
Ian

Re:One thing though: drag and drop between windows (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13118389)

All the cool kids use screen corners for Expose.

better fs structure, finder!!! (1)

FLAGGR (800770) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117891)

Who wants /Applications, /System, /Users etc. CAPS!!! yes CAPS!!! in a UNIX OS! Evil. Not to mention some dirs have spaces *gasp* very annoying at the command line.

Also, of course, Finder. What the fuck is up with the Finder? It's like they're obeying some law, OSX can be only so good, so lets cripple the FileManager. Honestly, wtf? A button to switch between metal/non-metal look? What genius thought that up? Normally Apple is so good with GUI stuff. Open/Save dialogs are a part of Finder, and they suck too. No "up" button. Urgh. No address bar. Only cool thing about finder is the pretty icons and the multi-rowed browsing.

Two simple things that drive me batty (1)

mcgroarty (633843) | more than 9 years ago | (#13117944)

I've been using the Mac full time for a month now. There are two things missing from Windows that drive me absolutely battyboth tied to the lack of automated window arrangement. "Tile vertically" is all I ask. 90% of the time, I'm using 2 apps side by side, and I hate constantly juggling windows.

The second thing is the lack of a maximize button. Zoom doesn't cut it. I want to make one window full-screen with a click. A few programs like Mail.App let you command-zoom to maximize. But most just maximize vertically or fit the window to the size of the data inside it.

If I really do have to keep juggling manually (is this how they sell you a Cinema 30"?) can I at least have sticky edges so windows gravitate toward screen and nearby window edges when moving and sizing?

Re:Two simple things that drive me batty (1)

Steveftoth (78419) | more than 9 years ago | (#13118090)

Window management on both suck. Though at least windoes makes it easier to use one window per screen.

though do you 'tile vertically' windows from 2 different apps in windows? I didn't think that it was possible. The best you get is 2 windows from the same app or multiple sub windows in the same app when in MDI.

In the mac, I want to be able to resize from any side, like in windows ( maybe this could be a command/option drag, I dunno). On windows I want to be able to break out of MDI ( since there are many times that mdi doesn't cut it, especially if you have multiple monitors).

Re:Two simple things that drive me batty (1)

mcgroarty (633843) | more than 9 years ago | (#13118240)

"though do you 'tile vertically' windows from 2 different apps in windows? I didn't think that it was possible. The best you get is 2 windows from the same app or multiple sub windows in the same app when in MDI."

Sure, "tile vertically" is available by right-clicking on the taskbar. If one doc is in an MDI, maximize the subwindow within the MDI window.

The finder needs help (1)

acomj (20611) | more than 9 years ago | (#13118018)

It really does. It just never act like I expect in many ways. I just want a "right click" open folder in new window.

Either it always opens in a new window or never does.

Re:The finder needs help (1)

ioErr (691174) | more than 9 years ago | (#13118181)

Command-double-click will open a folder in a new window.

Is that all? (1)

tsa (15680) | more than 9 years ago | (#13118153)

How about:
- the ability to give my windows, background etc. all the possible colors instead of having to choose between a few
- a utility with which you can choose the standard application for certain file types/processes
- a decent clock that gives you the date when you hover your mouse cursor over it

Yes, they are small things, but small things are often the ones that annoy us the most, because you keep seeing them.

Re:Is that all? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13118354)

You can already do #2.

open with (this time open the file with this application)
always open with (always open this file with this application, but don't change the application that is set to open this filetype if it is different)
open this kind of file with (change the application that opens this file type)

The only issue is they aren't all grouped in the same place. Which makes figuring everything out a bit tricky.

Confusing MS Windows, the hardware, and everything (1)

fermion (181285) | more than 9 years ago | (#13118227)

It seems that articles like this confuse the operation of MS Windows, the hardware it runs on, and the applications that run using both.

For instance, most hardware vendors will include a two button mouse. This has nothing to do with MS Windows. One can buy many types of mice and use it on many different windowing systems. However, by making the two button mouse standard, the applications, and indeed the windowing system, can utilize this standard. Whether the result is effective is debatable. What is true is a single button mouse is more effective for the new user, and those with hand problems. When Apple enforces the single button mouse, the computer is generally available to more people. One can buy a two button mouse, or a track pad, or sketch pad, or a pointer, or whatever one wishes. But Apple sells one thing.

The second isue is what is standard. IS the control key standard. Probably. I use it in X Windows. But complaining about a shortcuts keys miss the basic issue. In a GUI the first consideration should be does the GUI work. In this respect, one can argue whether menus should take advantage of habit and stay in the same place, or realize the the screen is huge and move. But if one is going to talk about shortcuts, one should remeber that it was Apple that enforced the consisant shortcuts, i.e, meta-c is always cut, and the likes of MS who pushed against that consistancy to maintain competative advantage. But really the whole thing boils down to basic confusion. The layout of the keyboard is not the OS. One can buy a Mac keyboard to use on the PC. Of course, due to silly bios issues, one still needs a XT keyboard.

So, lets stick knife in this puppy. A valid issue, that involves a discussion of complexity, number of ways to reach one command, and even the sensibility of the toolbar itself. It seems to me that one graduates from the heirchical menu system to the keyboard shortcut, and usefulness of the toolbar is in that it allows you to get to things you need, but no so often that you remember the shortcut.

The most interesting suggestions are limiting files and sorting. I like working with OO.org in x-windows because I can select by type. OTOH, most files in Mac OS I open from the desktop. If I need 10 files, I open them. It used to be you print fro the desktop to. I miss that. It could be with many thing MS Windows, the feature is a hack for some other deficiency in the system, perhaps now fixed, or a relic from the CLI days. I would say the folder was the same thing. I have never missed it.

I really do not mean to be a fanboy here. There are significant issues with Mac OS X. It still hangs. I wish it included more wireless drivers. But this article is lame because, like so many others, it does not try to understand the philosophy of different OS, and why some things needs to be different. I know that most users cannot differentiate between the layers of a computer, just like they think that IE is the internet, but if you are going to write about something, try to think a little harder before you start.

Sort folders to top of directory listings (1)

klui (457783) | more than 9 years ago | (#13118293)

Sort folders to top of directory listings. I hate this about Windows. Does anyone know how to disable this under Windows XP/2003? When I sort by name, I want to sort by name, not folders first and then name. Duh.

Buyer Beware (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13118355)

This sound more like: "I want them to be the same 'cuase I use both but can't be bothered to learn the small differences."

Now if he would have said use Joliet instead of 9660 then that would be an arguement.
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