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HP Embraces Linux for its Toughest Servers

Zonk posted more than 9 years ago | from the penguins-in-high-places dept.

HP 161

Colmao writes "Investor's Business Daily wrote up an article interviewing Martin Fink, the head of HP's NonStop Unit. From the article'In a move that suggests Linux is finally ready for prime time, Hewlett-Packard is giving the free software a bigger role on some of its toughest servers.' NonStop servers are HP's most costly machines. They are designed to be always on, mission critical appliances. They are used to run some of the world's stock markets. Linux is making big moves in the datacenter and getting some much needed exposure."

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Again? (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13151987)

>in a move that suggests Linux is finally ready for prime time

Again? I think the last time was when it was let known that linux run several important systems in stock and other vital exchanges [wstonline.com] .

HP Needs Linux to Survive (4, Interesting)

reporter (666905) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152168)

HP Unix was distinctly inferior to IBM's AIX, and moving to Linux is a way for HP to (1) jettison its own inferior product and (2) avoid the R&D costs of developing a superior operating system (OS). As for #2, there are 2 aspects: (1) feature development and (2) reliability. The vast army of open-source developers have made Linux a feature-rich OS that rivals (and likely now exceeds) IBM's AIX.

Further, IBM has spent enormous sums of money to ensure that Linux is reliable. IBM will soon discover that this aspect of Linux is the Achille's heel of open source. By using Linux, HP essentially gets a free ride from IBM and need not spend the money to ensure that Linux is reliable. IBM has already done the work.

I can already hear the grinding of the reduction-in-force axe at the OS department of HP.

Re:HP Needs Linux to Survive (1)

kfhickel (449052) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152392)

Except that they bought tru-64 with Compaq (who got it from Dec), and then chose HP-UX because it was "technologically superior".

Yeah, Right.

*BZZZZZZZT*

Re:HP Needs Linux to Survive (4, Insightful)

Compuser (14899) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152424)

Don't worry about IBM. Having core developers in-house
boosts their services part. If HP cuts their devs
and goes with Linux without R&D part in place then
their efforts to develop their service business
(something they dearly want) will hit the wall sooner
rather than later.

Re:HP Needs Linux to Survive (1)

davidsyes (765062) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152658)

HP needs *LINUX* to survive, or does HP *NEED* Linux for *HP* to survive?

How funny... "buddies is my anti-script image word...

Re:HP Needs Linux to Survive (1)

Ruie (30480) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152788)

Further, IBM has spent enormous sums of money to ensure that Linux is reliable. IBM will soon discover that this aspect of Linux is the Achille's heel of open source. By using Linux, HP essentially gets a free ride from IBM and need not spend the money to ensure that Linux is reliable. IBM has already done the work.

I don't think they can get away with plain "free ride".

The benefit of having their own developers is that they can offer cutting-edge code after their own in-house testing and thus be ahead of the market.

A competitor having no developers would have to choose between proven stable code and newer code that might be unstable. And they will not be able to offer the newest hardware as the drivers are unlikely to be available yet.

Re:HP Needs Linux to Survive (1)

KillShill (877105) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152826)

no, that is one of the core reasons why open source err "free" software is better than secret/proprietary software.

reinventing the wheel, while occasionally helpful, usually isn't.

Re:HP Needs Linux to Survive (-1, Flamebait)

a11 (716827) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152866)

HP Unix was distinctly inferior to IBM's AIX

WTF are you talking about? I've administered both for many years. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Linux a feature-rich OS that rivals (and likely now exceeds) IBM's AIX

The fact that you got modded as insightful and not as the uneducated inexperienced troll you are says quite a bit about some of these moderators. Wish I hadn't used up all my mod points.

I've been a UNIX admin for a long time. I've worked with Linux, AIX, HP-UX, and Sun. It goes HP, IBM, Sun, Linux. That's for mission-critical enterprise systems.

Cheers fuckface.

Re:HP Needs Linux to Survive (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13153002)

Listen, kids, what this really is is a consolidation play. That is, a strategy to fire NonStop software engineers and start replacing what they would have written from the Open Source pile. BTW, when HP Linux management is being candid they'll admit that for HP Linux is just a cheap layer that sits between their hardware and Oracle. (I've heard this from them myself.)

Re:HP Needs Linux to Survive (0, Troll)

FigWig (10981) | more than 9 years ago | (#13153358)

Hey dumbshit, this has nothing to do with HP Unix ( HP-UX ). This has to do with allowing a Linux layer to run on top of the Nonstop servers (formerly Tandem) that run a completely different OS.

Next time do some research (such as reading the fucking article) before spouting.

fp (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13151988)

fp anal pierce!

But of course... (3, Funny)

eno2001 (527078) | more than 9 years ago | (#13151991)

Linux is the OS most suited to big iron.

Re:But of course... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13152135)

Hah, no.

of course (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13152183)

but only if you live in Fanboy Land where Linux is the answer to every computer-related problem.

Re:of course (1)

eno2001 (527078) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152882)

Not every problem. Just the ones that matter. Gamers can go get a dedicated console. PCs suck for gaming anyway.

Re:of course (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13153231)

Gamers can go get a dedicated console. PCs suck for gaming anyway.

PC gaming is all about options.. Mods, patches, even expansion packs all make PC gaming richer and more rewarding than anything you can find on the console.

Now, thats not to say their isnt anything good on consoles. The richer gamers have a PC and Xbox/PS2/GC.. nowadays it's almost a requirement.

BF2 kicks Halo 2's ass any day of the week, and WOW kicks everything else, IMO.

Re:But of course... (1, Offtopic)

Mikey-San (582838) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152305)

I dunno about what's "most suited to big iron", but I do know that 45 of Netcraft's top 50 uptime list run some type of BSD (as of the authoring of this post):

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/today/top.avg.html [netcraft.com]

Regardless of applicability to the topic at hand, that's a pretty impressive statistic.

(Apologies for not citing more than one statistic in a post like this. I know it's pretty much useless as-is.)

Re:But of course... (2, Interesting)

Mikey-San (582838) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152320)

More apologies for forgetting to factor in the BSD/IIS combinations. Those are probably Windows/IIS boxes running through BSD proxies.

"My bad," as the kids say.

Re:But of course... (1)

fa2k (881632) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152432)

There are some with Linux too. It's the proxy's uptime, right? (go ahead and mod me redundant)

Re:But of course... (1)

kie (30381) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152571)

No wonder linux doesn't appear in that list,

if you looked at this page on netcraft's site...
http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/accuracy.html [netcraft.com]
You would see the following information...

Additionally HP-UX, Linux, NetApp NetCache, Solaris and recent releases of FreeBSD cycle back to zero after 497 days, exactly as if the machine had been rebooted at that precise point. Thus it is not possible to see a HP-UX, Linux or Solaris system with an uptime measurement above 497 days.

Re:But of course... (4, Funny)

cmstremi (206046) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152697)

Site #32 is "www.kimberlykupps.com", #37 is "www.adults-online.com" and #50 is "www.wendywhoppers.com"?

I guess I'm not quite sure why I should be surprised that adult sites are up there on the list, but I am.

Perhaps netcraft factors boyancy into the ol' uptime equation?

correct link (5, Informative)

oringo (848629) | more than 9 years ago | (#13151992)

The link given in the story is bad. There's a good story listed in yahoo news: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibd/20050 720/bs_ibd_ibd/2005720tech01 [yahoo.com]

Re:correct link (2, Informative)

Murphy Murph (833008) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152090)

How much truth is there to this quote by Fink?
Fink: IBM has long touted Linux on the mainframe.

Yet we don't see a lot of installations out there being used in a constructive way.

Rather than just do Linux on a mainframe, we want to bring those mainframe-class capabilities to Linux and open source. That's the part IBM hasn't done.

IBM talks loud about open source, but I don't see a lot of credibility there.

IBM hates the GPL.

They do everything they can to avoid the GPL because they don't like the GPL model.


Is this simply FUD or is there something to his claim?

Re:correct link (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13152119)

IBM mainframe Linux usually runs in a virtual partition. All the (un)sexy mainframe stuff is managed by the underlying proprietary VM OS and not Linux itself.

Re:correct link (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13152163)

Even when it's not run on top of VM, LPAR and the Hypervisor still abstract away a lot of the hardware...

Re:correct link (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13152282)

Another point is that IBM may trumpet Linux on the Mainframe in the press, but who is actually using it in production? What are the numbers? Benchmarks?

Telia, the darling of the slashdot world when they went with a much hyped Linux on Mainframe pilot back in 2000, quietly shit-canned the whole thing a few months later.

Re:correct link (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13152172)

But... but... according to the recent slashdot story, HP is actually making a mistake by picking Linux, because everyone knows that BSD is where da l33t d00ds hang out... cos da BSDs iz where all da real action iz.

Clearly neither IBM, or HP knows the first thing about operating systems.

Re:correct link (5, Interesting)

FireAtWill (559444) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152303)

Thanks for the correct link.

Having found the correct article, I'll be interested to see if this ever sees the light of day. I did spend a bit of time working on Tandem Non-Stop systems (since acquired by Compaq, and hence, by HP).

Working on Tandems was kind of like visiting another planet and seeing how an alien race might do operating systems. Hardware-wise, everything is redundant - from the CPUs, to the power supplies, to the system bus. Supposedly, a failure in any one component couldn't bring the system down. Everything was designed to survive a failure. Creating a fault tolerant system was supposed to be easy - except that all the software had to be designed to respond appropriately to a failure event.

The system could definitely use an upgrade using Linux. It was limited to eight character file names (no filename extensions) and you could use directories and subdirectories - only. There was no such thing as a subdirectory of a subdirectory. Just two levels.

The operating system was built around a messaging system that was fast enough for ATM transactions, but was useless for batch type data crunching operations (unfortunate, since somebody at this shop had selected it to do exactly that task.)

If they're thinking about this on the same lines as the original vision of the NonStop operating system, the version of Linux that comes of this will be completely non-applicable to any hardware but HP's. Everything will need to be rewritten/tweaked. Starting with Linux will help their other deficiencies, but will result in a really weird Linux derivative.

But in the end, IMHO, the whole concept is flawed because, while interesting, it only addressed component failure and not disasters such as fires or tornados, etc. At the same time I was working on this system, I read a story about a mass transit system in Denmark automatically (and successfully) failing over to another system in another city as a result of a fire. That seemed far more robust. And those systems were running OpenVMS.

Re:correct link (1)

wik (10258) | more than 9 years ago | (#13153308)

> But in the end, IMHO, the whole concept is flawed because, while interesting, it only addressed component failure and not disasters such as fires or tornados, etc.

The NonStop machines and many other machines in the same market segment support links to physically distributed systems for precisely that disaster scenario. This can work in one of two basic ways: either each transaction is sent to two+ machines before commit or a copy of the database audit trails are sent as an online mirror to a slave system.

Nice story, bad title. (3, Insightful)

ron_ivi (607351) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152331)

The story's titled "HP Propelling Linux Into Truly 'Big' Time"

Considering

  • Linux is the leading OS in the Top-500 supercomputers, and
  • Linux runs large clusters such as Google, and
  • Linux runs a bunch of stuff for Schwab, ETrade, etc -
  • and this other computer company that's a bit bigger than HP called IBM already noticed Linux
I think this article is badly misnamed.

The article should have been titled

"Linux Propelling HP into Truly 'Big' Time".

Wrong article? (2, Informative)

ChairmanMeow (787164) | more than 9 years ago | (#13151998)

The linked article doesn't seem to mention HP or Linux in any way...

Re:Wrong article? link is no longer correct (1)

iggymanz (596061) | more than 9 years ago | (#13153015)

not a troll, see AC posting below for yahoo link (someone mod parent and AC as Dah Real Poop)

IT on the night-shift (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13152001)

"Linux is making big moves in the datacenter and getting some much needed exposure."

Not as much as CowboyNeal.

hp double faced? (0, Offtopic)

Diabolus777 (663144) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152005)

I own a hp laptop and i cant get some of it's features to work under Linux. Thanks to the good work of the open source community, some patches were made available but none of them works flawlessly.

The developpers explicitely included hp support email response in the .diff files as an apology to the buggy nature of the patch, which mention that hp don't support Linux, hence, these patches are the work of reverse engineering.

They put on their most expensive hardware an OS that they don't support.

What to make of this?

Re:hp double faced? (1, Insightful)

saleenS281 (859657) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152037)

What to make of this? Naive +1. Consumers don't want linux on their desktop, that's what to make of it. Your laptop is targeted at consumers... consumers who don't use linux.

In other news, I just bought a chevy Aveo. I want to tow my boat with it. Some welders at a local shop were able to rig up a trailer hitch to it but it doesn't seem to be able to move with my boat attached. Chevy allows their trucks to tow boats, but not the aveo's?

What to make of this?

Re:hp double faced? (3, Funny)

heeeraldo (766428) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152101)

you bought a car?!

I built my own from parts I ordered from newegg.com! Saved me a fortune, although I still can't find a distro of RedHat optimized for a small-block Chevy...

Re:hp double faced? (1)

modecx (130548) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152213)

Screw RedHat.

Everyone knows gentoo is the Linux distro best fitted to running quickly on a small block Chevy. And hey, if you were capable of building your car you aught to be able to compile gentoo on a Ramjet-350!

Re:hp double faced? (1)

Diabolus777 (663144) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152148)

I want Linux on my desktop, and I'm not alone. I know I'm a minority and I'm cost innefficient, the thing is that I think the Linux desktop community is self supporting. Release specs and docs for hardware, costs nothing, community will do the rest. Naive or idealist? The Aveo analogy makes no sense. My laptop runs Linux fine. The problems I have are with sleep mode and extra multimedia keys.

Re:hp double faced? (1)

saleenS281 (859657) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152204)

Then obviously it's not functioning to the full capacity you want it to. If you wanted a completely functional linux desktop you should've bought a machien that supported it, there's plenty out there. Just like if I want a vehicle that tows a boat, I should buy one that supports it.

Re:hp double faced? (1)

ettlz (639203) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152241)

Release specs and docs for hardware, costs nothing, community will do the rest.

I doubt HP has the right to release this information. I've an HP notebook, and I can't get the sleep modes to work. No, I lie --- it's like the modem, I've never even bothered trying to get them to work. Other things are the digital media reader and the wireless: the former is probably protected by an NDA with Texas Instruments, and the latter is a Broadcom so I have to use ndiswrapper and Windows drivers which rejoice in taking out my kernel after 90 minutes.

Re:hp double faced? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13152501)

Other things are the digital media reader and the wireless: the former is probably protected by an NDA with Texas Instruments They usually work fine, and create a scsi device for the media card. You could also maybe try gphoto2.

Re:hp double faced? (1)

bersl2 (689221) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152215)

All we want are the goddamn hardware specs. How is that too much to ask for?

Though, maybe that's the wrong question to ask. One that might get some answers is: "How much will open documentation (no NDA, no strings attached) cost us?"

Money is always a touch-and-go subject for free software; there isn't ever enough (is there ever?). Is this a cause worth donating for?

And even then, it's only a temporary solution. If we give in like that, the danger is that more companies will do the same, including those that previously gave them to us when we asked for them. And of course, this will have to be repeated for nearly every chipset.

I guess we're reduced to the status quo. It's probably better to have slow progress yet keep the integrity of our guiding principles.

Re:hp double faced? (1)

JoeCommodore (567479) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152836)

I AM a consumer

I want Linux on my desktop

What makes me not a consumer? Just your opinion. All those calls to Tech support will make a difference.

I was able to get Linux Running on the HP desktop I bought... after I got rid of the HP motherboard in it. In facxt it now supports Linux and Windows from as early as 95, which is a ,lot more consumer friendly thwan the thing I replaced it with.

Re:hp double faced? (1)

sykjoke (899173) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152051)

Simple: They put on their most expensive hardware an OS that they don't support. on laptops I would expect high availability servers to be 'simpler' than laptops, especially when it comes to the desktop side of things. No sound, No broken ATI drivers etc.... and I also expect the kinda people who'd be running the hardware to fork out more on support than the total cost of you laptop.

Re:hp double faced? (1)

oever (233119) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152077)

A lot of lip service but no action. Does anyone remember this announcement:
Linux notebooks by Hewlett-Packard [heise.de] ? Has anybody been able to actually buy a linux laptop from HP? I haven't and I've tried. German customer support told me, rather irritated, that no Linux laptops are for sale from HP. Buying a laptop running linux is still difficult and HP sending out false press releases does not make the situation any more comfortable.

There are many selling in the States. (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13152152)

Trust me. We get the calls.

Just because Linux is cool doesn't mean people have any idea how to use it.

I'd like to know where the idea got out that tech support was also free Linux instruction.

Re:hp double faced? (3, Insightful)

drspliff (652992) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152081)

Eh?

HPs Desktop business is dealing commodity hardware for 'mom and pop' kinda people who need to check their e-mail, browse the web and share videos with family etc.

I can totally see why Linux is unsupported on their desktop systems, it's a pure business decision due to the relatively tiny number of Linux users buying their systems.

On the other hand their server business is the exact opposite due to the increasing market share Linux is getting in the data centre. Linux has already proved it's self on their entry and mid-range servers for a number of years now and their finally giving it the break into mission-critical data centres that it deserves.

Looking at the parents comment they have never dealt with HP servers running Linux, or indeed HP servers running anything. The platform support package (PSP) is great, it includes industrial strength drivers for their RAID cards, power management interfaces and even utilities to toggle the maintainance LED.

All in all HP could be called double faced, but the amount of development work required to make/certify drivers for all the desktop hardware they make just isn't worth it just to persuade the few Linux users that haven't heard the HP Desktop horror stories to buy their systems.

Huh? (1)

Saeed al-Sahaf (665390) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152250)

I own a hp laptop and i cant get some of it's features to work under Linux.

And this has WHAT to do with running Linux on HP servers?

Buy an HP Linux laptop instead. (2, Informative)

delire (809063) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152296)

If you want everything to work, out of the box [msn.com] .

AFAIK Ubuntu now ships on HP machines if asked also.

Re:Buy an HP Linux laptop instead. (1)

ostiguy (63618) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152332)

That is 6 lbs unit. The nc6230 weighs 5 even. That is the unit that HP europe supposedly cooked up a special suse distribution for, but is apparently unavailable outside of Europe.

ostiguy

Re:Buy an HP Linux laptop instead. (1)

delire (809063) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152446)


It's an ugly beast, this cannot be denied. To me it looks like a shamelessly rebadged Sager machine. Regardless, there are a few other HP laptops one can order with Ubuntu onboard. Here's a site that covers this lightly [heise.de] (german only).

Strangely I cannot find information about this on the HP page even though there was quite alot of hubbub about it when the news was announced. I think it's an 'on-request' thing, which equates to a tentative commitment to promoting this product on HP's part.

Anyway, there are a ton of companies out there that ship laptops with Linux. I hear very good reports about for instance. [linuxcertified.com]

Re:hp double faced? (3, Insightful)

jschottm (317343) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152352)

I own a hp laptop and i cant get some of it's features to work under Linux. ...
They put on their most expensive hardware an OS that they don't support.

What to make of this?

HP is a massive company with ~150,000 workers (minus those cuts that are about to happen). The team that does the very high end systems discussed in this article have very little to do with the team that designed your laptop, other than getting a paycheck from the same company. They have far different interests and customer needs than the laptop people do. Linux has very limited penetration and market share on laptops but a large and increasing share of the server market.

Always on servers? (3, Funny)

jrockway (229604) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152006)

What will they think of next!? Personally, I shut all of my servers down at 5PM so that people working late are inconvenienced and all incoming mail delivery fails! Take that, SPAM!

Oh wait.

Always off servers (1)

pintomp3 (882811) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152030)

i never turn mine on. take that hackers!

Re:Always on servers? (1)

PornMaster (749461) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152284)

You must be using Deskstar drives...

Wrong Link? (1)

cloudkj (685320) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152013)

Hmmmm, original article title is "Data Storage Companies Have New Focus As Many Shifting Into More Security Work." Doesn't seem to be talking about HP, Linux, or NonStop servers....

Re:Wrong Link? (1)

Russellkhan (570824) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152260)

Yep. and, oddly, Google News links to the same article from the headline "HP Propelling Linux Into Truly 'Big' Time". I'm guessing it's either a really stupid subscription redirect or they just moved the article (stupidly).

Typical Slashdot. (1)

Saeed al-Sahaf (665390) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152275)

Yes, well, look what "editor" posted the "story". Typical Slashdot.

Non Stop architecture has a propetary OS... (2, Informative)

Glasswire (302197) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152020)

But is now running on Itanium processors (was MIPS). I suspect the Linux connection is that you may be able to now use Linux-based tools for development and the cross-compiler -now you have to use Windows and Visual Studio IDE.

Learning from Linux (2, Interesting)

new500 (128819) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152317)


that you may be able to now use Linux-based tools for development and the cross-compiler

HP already have more than a little experience with just what you describe

"The book ia-64 linux kernel by David Mosberger and Stephane Eranian was extremely helpful"

from: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/journal/ [hp.com]

in this (very instructive) article: "Porting OpenVMS to HP Integrity Servers"

(Integrity is one line below Superdome, both Itanium - based. Superdome IA-64 is just coming together now.)

hmm, 'kay that doesn't mean they used Linux tools, but it does mean they are sitting on some very recent and very applicable knowledge.

Not being a fan of Linux, for historical reasons, as much as other more practical ones, i nonetheless truly appreciate how OSS just affected positively one of the most closed - source OSs still out there.

(okay, VMS used to be available with source on microfiche, but that's not my point)

Don't know about stock markets... (2, Interesting)

plj (673710) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152026)

..but I'm glad that the machines my bank uses to hande their online banking site are #6, #7 and #8 on this [netcraft.com] list.

I don't really remember, that there would have ever been any unavailablilities due to them. (But due to my ISP? Yes.)

Re:Don't know about stock markets... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13152453)

Kinda found it interesting that none of the Top 50 sites are running Linux. It is mostly BSD with a few Windows servers.

Re:Don't know about stock markets... (1)

radish (98371) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152717)

Who cares about banks? I know my needs are being looked after. Check out positions 32, 36, 37, and 50. :)

"BSD/OS" -vs- FreeBSD??? (1)

mosel-saar-ruwer (732341) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152891)


They list [netcraft.com] a "BSD/OS" in addition to FreeBSD [as well as "NetBSD/OpenBSD"].

My question: What is "BSD/OS" supposed to be? The old BSDi?

Re:"BSD/OS" -vs- FreeBSD??? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13153006)

Yes. It was still sold, back when those machines were last rebooted.

Re:Don't know about stock markets... (1)

CyricZ (887944) | more than 9 years ago | (#13153276)

It's too bad that WindRiver basically killed BSD/OS. It was a fantastic PC server OS. Indeed, after SCO OpenServer started lacking in the early to mid 1990s, BSD/OS really took off the provided the quality that we needed. Massive uptimes were the norm, in PC server terms. Not to mention amazing performance. It really squeezed every last bit out of the system.

It's a real shame that WindRiver chose not to (or was unable to) release the source code to BSD/OS. While FreeBSD can often be used as a comparable substitude for BSD/OS, nothing really makes older PC servers go like true BSD/OS does.

Is that "NonStop", as in Tandem? (2, Insightful)

jcr (53032) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152036)

Are we talking about the remnants of Tandem being moved to Linux?

-jcr

Re:Is that "NonStop", as in Tandem? (4, Informative)

bleak sky (144328) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152065)

Are we talking about the remnants of Tandem being moved to Linux?
Yes, it's NonStop as in Tandem. But it's not so much about moving it to Linux, but enabling Linux to run on it (adding NonStop features to the Linux kernel), and allowing more open source projects to run on NonStop.

Re:Is that "NonStop", as in Tandem? (4, Interesting)

jcr (53032) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152085)

I would be very apprehensive about trying to graft the NonStop technology into the Linx kernel. Running Linux as a process under Guardian, just like IBM runs Linux under VM, makes a lot more sense.

-jcr

Re:Is that "NonStop", as in Tandem? (1)

Comatose51 (687974) | more than 9 years ago | (#13153017)

Wait, if they did that, wouldn't they have to GPL their additions? Is HP willing to give out that kind of technlogy? That would be a dream for Linux and possibly M$.

Tandem, as in formerly known as.. (2, Interesting)

tinkerton (199273) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152350)

This (virtual)article looks like a followup interview on a RedHat event mid june, where Fink talked about the possibility to run linux natively(as opposed to virtual). It got some coverage then, eg ,

http://www.networkworld.com/newsletters/linux/2005 /0613linux2.html [networkworld.com] ">here.

Yahoo news has the new interview. It's mentioned in one of the first posts here.

Re:Is that "NonStop", as in Tandem? (1)

chiph (523845) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152973)

I've heard of Tandem (I think Compuserve was a big customer of theirs at one point), but I'm curious as to what OS the Tandems ran before being bought by hp?

Chip H.

Re:Is that "NonStop", as in Tandem? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13153169)

They did, and still do, run an OS called "Guardian". Superduper fault tolerant. Severely limited by hardware speed, but hardware speed is not the intent in applications that use Tandems.

On top of that, there's a UNIX-like layer that you can use, if you so desire, called OSS ("Open Systems Services"), but it's really just a graft on top of Guardian.

I bet they're just going to replace OSS with Linux, keeping Guardian at the bottom. There's far too much existing software out there, in big time clients (banks and so forth).

HP endorses it? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13152038)

Oh crap, that's pretty much the kiss of death these days. Linux will go down with the Itanic!

I heard something interesting today (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13152062)

Kathleen Fent lost her virginity to a gay nigger.

I'm a bit suprised by this (2, Interesting)

confusion (14388) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152067)

They have long touted HP-UX as their non-stop platform, but this seems to me somewhat as a concession that it, well, sucks and they need something more adoptable by the mainstream.

I really think HP has the some of the best hardware in the market, particularly the superdome and friends, so hopefully this will help them.

Jerry
http://www.cyvin.org/ [cyvin.org]

Re:I'm a bit suprised by this (2, Interesting)

new500 (128819) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152223)

Absolute crap : "They have long touted HP-UX as their non-stop platform,"

find me just one use of their trademark Non-Stop in a linux blurb.

this is modded up?

"but this seems to me somewhat as a concession that it, well, sucks and they need something more adoptable by the mainstream."

aha, really? Tandem was mainstream? Alpha was mainstream?

- cough - Itanium is mainstream?

Compaq/HP/Intel (plus contractors) ran some pretty awesome porting to get VMS and Tandem up on Itanium. This ain't "mainstream" unless you don't look outside of a fp (or stream) constrained / brokerage / medicare / financial op.

HP do tout "open" standards - see: http://h20223.www2.hp.com/NonStopComputing/cache/8 2866-0-0-0-121.html [hp.com]

what you ARE right about, however is that Superdome is very good kit. What else runs Windows, HP-UX, Tru-64, Linux, VMS and Tandem on the same machine, on Aplha or Itanium, let alone allows dymanic partitioning and even (limited) cross- os clustering inside the same chassis?

bringing Linux to the mix makes sense. Lots of sense. More than the linked "article"! :)

Given the state of Tru-64 / HP-UX development, adopting Linux might make more sense now for HP. Adding decent clustering (iirc the VMS team worked on the Tru-64 features) to the mix would make a ton of sense. Tru-64 long lost its lustre in the HPC market (sadly), and the revised HP-UX dropped most of the good features, post "os-merger". So coming out with a clean linux base, with clusters, distributed FS . . .

well at least that might put SGI out of business with the Altix . . .

don't mean to be harsh, but "mainstream" and the whole context of the discussion do not go together.

If Linux can be virtualised under Tandem (and my apologies to all as i know VMS not Tandem) then maybe HP is aiming to consolidate hardware share by allowing Linux to replace data warehousing replication for fast market analysis . . .

== Idle Random Thoughts. Usual Disclaimers Apply ==

First, HP lays off 15,000 (1)

Sarojin (446404) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152136)

Then they hire on the open source community!

Anyone who comments before this... (1)

Transcendent (204992) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152145)

...hasn't read the article, since the current posted article mentions *nothing* of Linux, Unix, BSD, etc...

Good job everyone!

</Sarcastic Flame>

Rule of the day: don't RTFA (1)

PhiberOptix (182584) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152459)

i don't know if the submitter did this on purpose (doesn't seem to be the case)...

But the "editor" didn't rtfa, the people commenting the story also didn't rtfa, and the moderators giving +1 insighful also obviously didn't rtfa, and probably also the people metamoding also didn't rtfa

me? i'm just ranting, of course i didn't rtfa

This is marketing, baby (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13152170)

And again there is some "HP loves your Linux" news. It's just a load of marketing. They don't support it, they don't promote it, they only use it a little bit. They just want to sell you their hardware. How many people read Slashdot? How much does this "news" cost? Exactly. Mod me troll, mod me flamebait I don't care. Just keep this in mind when you read the next "HP loves your Linux" news. Probably in a week or two.

Re:This is marketing, baby (1)

laisak (828971) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152327)

The word "embrace" is a bit overkill on this one unless they are physically hugging their servers.

Re:This is marketing, baby (1)

Pop69 (700500) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152588)

I dunno, my dinky little 1U Sun SPARC64 looks quite cute sitting in the corner, I might just sidle up to it and hug it later on.

Re:This is marketing, baby (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13152685)

Actually, no, it's a valid english metaphor.

Non-literal language: try it sometime. It can express deeper thoughts in fewer words, and still be perfectly intelligible.

Re:This is marketing, baby (1)

zymano (581466) | more than 9 years ago | (#13153026)

Exactly. IBM knows that linux has a fanbase so they advertise their servers to them.

Re:This is marketing, baby (2, Insightful)

rubycodez (864176) | more than 9 years ago | (#13153220)

HP does promote and support (for a fee) Linux on many of its intel, amd and itanium2 servers. Their target market for Linux is enterprise/government Unix(tm) systems migration, not the hobbyist and not the desktop user. Why should they, no big money there. That said, looking for ways to integrate linux code/libraries isn't so much embracing as taking advantage of a larger code base than what their shrinking OS coding teams can produce.

inf5ormative shitshit (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13152217)

Correct 8etwork

Found TFA! (3, Informative)

Russellkhan (570824) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152273)

The original article seems to be inaccessible on investors.com. I found the same article [yahoo.com] on Yahoo news.

HP ServiceGuard ported to Linux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13152355)

HP has ported ServiceGuard cluster management software to Linux! This is a _major_ step! You can now run Linux on high availability enterprise class servers (for example on HP Superdome)! Very nice, very nice indeed!

Re:HP ServiceGuard ported to Linux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13152933)

Are we talking real cluster here or Microsoft "cluster"? (meaning failover)

While that's nice (1)

nemaispuke (624303) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152485)

I wonder if HP is going to port the code from HP-UX for Linux to create vPars on their hardware, or is that going to be an HP-UX "only" feature?

What is Non-Stop (5, Interesting)

minniger (32861) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152657)

These are systems that are really pretty cool. And really freaking expensive.

They have nothing to do with HP-UX or Unix of any kind. They are Tadem machines (feel free to look that up).

These are rather slow but super reliable machines with a bizzare OS that has had features for decades that mainstream os's still don't have. Take the current clustering and grid tech and meld it all together and you get something like the tandem. The company I work for came out of the tandem space. The typical intro to the machines for new hires is to note that you can smash one with a sledge hammer and you won't lose any transactions.

Who uses these things? Banks, Banks, Banks, Airlines, Governement, Dell, etc...

They (HP) have been working on a unixy layer to run on top of the tandem os for a number of years now. Apparently this hasn't been going too well. Sounds like Linux might help them do something similar to IBM and the VMs on the mainframe.

What is Non-Stop-demonstrations. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13152881)

"The company I work for came out of the tandem space. The typical intro to the machines for new hires is to note that you can smash one with a sledge hammer and you won't lose any transactions."

Well no wonder the machines are so expensive. They're smashing the inventory.

Re:What is Non-Stop (1)

Wizarth (785742) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152940)

The typical intro to the machines for new hires is to note that you can smash one with a sledge hammer and you won't lose any transactions.
What if the new hire doesn't beleive you? Can you prove it?

Re:What is Non-Stop (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13153217)

A company I used to work for had a disaster back in the late '80s or early '90s, where an immense snowstorm caused their roof to collapse under the weight.

As the roof was in the process of collapsing, people were running in and trying to save equipment and contracts and software and blah blah blah, until the fire department forbade entrance.

Last people saw, the Tandems were holding the sagging roof up, and still processing ATM transactions around the nation.

Incidentally:

"Slow Down Cowboy!

Slashdot requires you to wait between each successful posting of a comment to allow everyone a fair chance at posting a comment.

It's been 7 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment"

Seven minutes? I can't post a second time within seven minutes? WTF?

Re:What is Non-Stop (1)

minniger (32861) | more than 9 years ago | (#13153221)

At 200K a swing? No. Not really. : (

Re:What is Non-Stop (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13153311)

There used to be a set of promo videos featuring Jimmy Treybig (CEO of Tandem when they were independent) randomly pulling cards out of a running Tandem system, while the monitors kept displaying ongoing transactions. not quite the same as the sledgehammer, but definitely got the point across. As a developer it was also nice that even if the power failed, as soon as power came back EVERYTHING picked up right where it left off, immediately.

It would be nice if... (1)

haskellcompiler (722009) | more than 9 years ago | (#13152702)

...HP also supported Linux on their notebooks. I bought the HP Pavilion zv6005us and getting Linux to run on it was a pain in the ass (not that I have everything working on it now).

Who uses Non-Stop? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13153027)

Apparently the NASDAQ [zdnet.com] is run on these machines.

NonStop systems, originally sold by a company called Tandem, have run the core of Nasdaq since 1982.
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