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Red Hat Growing Pains

CmdrTaco posted more than 15 years ago | from the no-this-does-not-star-alan-thicke dept.

Red Hat Software 203

Rounding out a week with a lot of Red Hat news, def con cyber has written a good piece describing what a lot of you have been talking about: changes in Red Hat over the last few years. I think that this one sums up quite well a lot of the email I've been getting regarding RH. As a side note, the Slashdot feed on their portal site has been blatantly deleting all stories about them. They say that the SEC is requires this of them, so all I can say is that if you want uncut Slashdot, get it here. But then again, you probably were anyway... *grin*

The following was written by Slashdot Reader def con cyber

An open letter to Red Hat

I have been a Redhat user since release 4.2. I have always been so impressed with your desire to advance Linux technology and bring Linux to the world with your ease of use and easy installations. My Linux experience started off downloading images of slackware Linux off of the net. When I loaded my first Redhat distribution, I swore I would never use anything else.

But now, I find myself waivering on that decision for several reasons. First, I was so excited to get my copy of Redhat Linux, I surfed on over to your website and decided to give you guys a little extra business. For the first time, I will take the plunge, dig deep into my wallet and buy the extra pack. Well, it looks like I will have to dig a little deeper than I expected $99.00. But what the hell. Lets do it.

So, for the next week, I listen to my Linux cohorts telling me about their new Redhat 6.0 Linux boxes. So, I break, I run off and buy a retail version. I still have the perks to look forward to when my plus pack comes. Again a dent to my wallet. $79.00

I load it onto my box, new install. Looks just like the old. Finally, I am up and running. A flawless install. Unfortunately Gnome is buggy and crashes (a lot). I have never spent more time rebooting my system since I ran Microsoft products on it. I type "glint" to install some additional packages. What? Glint is nowhere to be found and GnoRPM is very confusing to use. Why would you drop something tried and trued just like that.

I attempt to install Redhat on my laptop. Glitch, I am trying to install from a superdisk which is recognized as second device, second ide controller or in the Linux world hdd. Not a problem, I am sure I can override Linux trying to mount fd0 and telling it to mount hdd. I try for a few days and fail. Well, I'll try later.

I finally get my Redhat extra pack. I excitedly rip it open. I thow the powertools and application disk into /dev/floppy and spin it up. Well, they are both full of lame application which can be easily d/l'd from the net or that Redhat used to distribute with their standard distrubution. What the hell, I am going to get my moneys worth. I phone Redhat to redeem my free technical installation support about the superdisk problem.

Well, little to no wait, very impressed. I find out why in a minute. I explain my problem and my proposed solution and the tech support says cheerfully, "That sounds reasonable". After being on hold for 5 minutes she comes back and informs me that she spoke to some techs there and, "they could not understand why I wanted to do what I was asking therefor, they could not support the problem." Wow, from, "that sounds logical" to "no way in hell" in five minutes flat.

The problem has since been fixed (without the help of Redhat). Well, this past weekend I get the chance to really tweak my system. I find liks that point to old versions that were not loaded into the system (Ironically when I tried to use the Redhat 'support disk' (a hi-jack of out of date usenet lists)).

I go to the Redhat errata page. I try to dowload the update to Netscape. Broken links. So I ftp into Redhat's updates.redhat.com. What do I find, but a bunch of empty directories. This wouldn't be a problem except for the fact that the errata page had several fixes that pointed to this area. I dreamed of the day Redhat would go public and actually have been putting money aside for when it finally happened. When I read about the Redhat IPO, I wasn't the least bit excited.

Redhat, please know that I am not flaming you. I have tried to fill this with legitimate complaints. I am not anti-Redhat. You and I have been together for many years. I am an Internet content provider and run 5 boxes 24x7x365, and one laptop. All running Redhat Linux.

I have always "bought" your distribution to support you because you were supporting me the user. I have purchased every release since 4.2. I have always recommended you to newbies and helped them setup their systems.

I do not ask for perfection. But you are now charging $79.00 for your basic distribution. As a customer, I am getting less, quantity, and quality. My web server (Redhat 5.0) has been up since Sept. 98 without a glitch. My Redhat 6.0 workstation locks up every few days (much like my wife's Windows machine).

I appreciate your need and desire to win corporate business. But I am "common joe Linux user". I feel I helped you get where you are. Please tell me there is still room for me within your business plans and future goals. If not let me know now so I can find a different distribution who is still looking out for the little guy.

With respect and hope for the future of Redhat, Stuart MacKenzie

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In Summary (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855373)

I bought the latest vesion of your software.

Why isn't it exactly the same as the last version?

I've been using RedHat for years and have occasionaly dabbled in other systems (Caldera). As with any other OS (including MS) I expect I will have to spend a few days tweaking it, just installing in the early days I knew may take two days to just get it up properly. With 6.0 I partitioned, rebooted, and was playing MahJong in under 30 minutes--GnoGnome crashes. Least painful instal ever including windows (although that is by definition painful, but some of us need to run assemblers & compilers for certain OS'es).

I was rather pissed about glint also.

ACK!

Re:Man, two words for you... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855374)

For $2 or $80 he deserves a distribution that isn't flaky.

And for $80 he definetly deserves a better answer to a tech question than that's too bad but the tech guys don't understand what I told them, you told me you wanted to do.

Let me put it this way, would you put your ass on the line by recommending your employer to install a RedHat 6.0 server?

Fine, then they should not carry a modified /. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855375)

I am aware of the SEC requirement, but that being the case they should not be allowed to mirror a site which they have edited for content. That is totally wrong. If they cannot carry uncensored news, they should not carry it at all.

Older/outdated hardware? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855376)

If it is than there must be alot of people using old hardware because there are a hell of alot of complaints.

And really, isn't one of Linux's pluses the fact that it runs reliably on older hardware.

Sounds like an overall quality problem to me. (Especially in regards to Gnome.)

RedHat (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855377)

Reading about experiences like this makes me
glad I've stuck with Slakware. Slakware 4.0 is
rock solid, easy to install, and has good support
via the user base found at the slakware home page:

http://www.slackware.com/

--Doug

Buggy for me as well (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855378)

I have been using RedHat since 5.1 (I am a rank newbie) and I loved 5.2. I had it running gnome w/o problems. Then I bought a new m/b and ram to install 6.0. The problems began. Install flied by, but each time in gnome it locked up. I set the card (diamond stealth 64) to 8 bits and it works fine, but looks like hell. I have been using my support (via email only) and been getting nowhere. I thought I was paying $79.99 for support, but I feel robbed.

In short, I broke my rule of not buying a x.0 product, and I am sorry for it.

Re:Man, two words for you... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855379)

Doesn't sound like he was getting tech support from RedHat either, but still out the 80 bucks.

Re:So are you going to stick with RedHat? / Rednec (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855380)

I just noticed it starting to suck between version 5.1 and 5.2. I wasn't aware why, and didn't notice anything about 'redneck' language.

Thank goodness Slackware 4.0 is out, that's all I can say.

Re:Netscape in Monochrome (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855381)

Interesting.

The server breaks client programs running under it, that worked with earlier versions. Then the developers of the server blame the client program. That sounds very Microsoft to me.

Re:Red Hat 6.0 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855382)

I gave up on Red Hat 6.0 and went back to 5.2. I had too many problems with the Xterm stuff.

Re:Red Hat censoring /. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855383)

It seems to me that they should be in trouble for modifying news content in any way, shape, or form, if the intent of the rules is to prevent coverups and news distortion.

Think about it. Potential investors are going to go to their Website to check out the company. They're going to hear that Slashdot.org is a news site that might have information worth knowing about Redhat. The link on the RedHat site points to what is purported to be Slashdot.org. Surprise, surprise, there's no bad (or good) news about RedHat on the "slashdot" so there must be nothing to read.

Something smells funny here.

Who's tried the new Mandrake? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855384)

I'll take your word for 5.3.

But ok, who's tried the new one and what do you think of it?

Re:Red Hat censoring /. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855385)

If this is the case, then RedHat should either present Slashdot uncut on their site, or not present it at all. Presenting a 'censored' version is clearly a distortion of the news.

Red Hat = no tech support, too (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855386)

You argue that Cheap Bytes = no tech support which would be valid, except that the writer's experience (as well as my own) shows that Red Hat's installation support is nonexistant as well. I bought the "official" Red Hat packaging a couple of times and refuse to do so anymore because #1 the price has gone way beyond reasonable and #2 Red Hat has lost all respect for the community that helped to make them a viable business.

I, too, set a few grand aside waiting for the IPO announcement but I'm going to put that money to better use now because I do not wish to support Red Hat any longer until they get their heads out of their asses. I've also started buying Cheap Bytes since the 5.2 release and will continue to do so.

If Debian ever becomes easier to install I'll start buying the official versions again and support true free software. Hell I might buy the official version anyway, not use it, and tell them I'll buy the next version if it is easier to install. :-)

Yes, true . . . (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855387)

Yes, RH supports Gnome but as you stated they don't provide Miguel's income ( I'm sure they do not provide all income to Alan Cox either.) The point that I was trying to make was that RedHat has done an excellent job up until this day by supporting the Open Source community (including Gnome).

As stated this wasn't a rip on Gnome, it is a criticsm of RedHat for releasing a not yet ready for prime time distribution.

GNOME is what's unstable, not RH6 itself (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855388)

That's why I use KDE. 1.1.1 (comes with RH6, although I'll be damned if I can figure out what RH's 'official' way to enable it is - I ended up tweeking .xinitrc) is far more stable than GNOME. No flames on GNOME - the latest 1.0.10 GNOME RPMs are a *big* improvement, and I look forward to more competition for my desktop in the future (I used to use AfterStep, then switched to KDE, and I've tried GNOME a couple times now, but it hasn't yet "hooked" me).

RH 6 itself (upgraded to the 2.2.9 kernel and ALSA sound driver, and with all errata RPMs applied) is very stable for me, including in KDE.

Re:Man, two words for you... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855389)

Or LinuxMall [linuxmall.com] .

See this article [linux.com] at linux.com [linux.com]

Problems at SuSE (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855390)

Their best talent has jumped ship to start Zenguin [zenguin.com] . Expect rocky times for this distribution.

Don't be stupid . . . (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855391)

only /. censors. ;^}

Re:Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855392)

I'm with you. Linux is good, Gnome someday will be good enough (but not now).
And yes, use the irc, somebody has tgeh problems you have before you even get the software.

actually... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855393)

last week or whenever raster left (and before their IPO) they still kept those nasty feeds about them.

By modifying headlines they are misleading users (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855394)

If they cannot carry the full set of headlines then simply provide a link to slashdot. Otherwise they are leaving a false impression for those that don't come to slashdot but just get a general overview by visting RH.

Not really Re:It can only be expected... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855395)

Being a company trying to do a billion things at once is no excuse for shipping crashware!

Or . . (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855396)

Thanks for the $80, send us e-mail, we'll call you .

Bet you feel better now, huh?

With this reasoning . . . (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855397)

You could reasonably state that M$ Windows is not all that bad. It's just the fact that M$ is using M$ Internet Explorer for the shell. If those nice people at M$ just didn't try to help us so much. . .

Ironic... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855398)

Ironically, while reading this, the add at the top of the Slashdot page was an image saying "Code Worrier [pause] for REDHAT LINUX [in red]."

Ironic.

I do believe Redhat is reminding me more of Microsoft every day.

Re:RH 6.0 bloating (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855399)

I don't know that I would characterize all non-RedHat methods of installing Linux 'manual.'

I don't consider installing Slackware 4.0 a manual process. It's a nice friendly script process for the most part.

Re:What's up with this harassment story? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855400)

Some one posted some thing about this on comp.os.linux.something an amount of time ago. Didn't keep the post unfortunetly. It's probably not a complete porker story then (or is it?).

Re:Red Hat 6.0 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855401)

I gave up on RedHat 5.1 and went back to Slackware 3.6. Now I'm up to Slackware 4.0 and happy with what it give me. Anything I need to add, I can do myself.

Re:those "growing pains"... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855402)

so I should invest in a company with a crappy unstable product becuase they are having "growing pains"?

Re:Problems I've had with RH 6 (mostly gnome relat (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855403)

I selected graphical startup... But now I don't want it. Anyone know the easiest way to fix this. I don't typically mess around with the run level editor so I wasn't sure how to do this.

Re:SuSE Linux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855404)

I bought my SuSE in a shop. I consider it an improvement on RH 5.0, my last distro and only foray into RH (I was slackware up till then).

KDE is making an effort, but still sucks as a UI next to Win95. It is stable, but has a load of design flaws and inconsistencies.

The SuSE YaST system is nice if you like that kind of thing, and SAX is really a jolly good X config system.

'sup Manager? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855405)

sup-manager@redhat.com ?

What's up manager at redhat dot com ?

Is that email address a joke?

Really.

Slashdot does not claim to be a mirror of a page (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855406)

RH gives a list of stories under the title "Slashdot" without referencing that some are deleted. That *is* immoral and misleading. SlashDot in no way attempts to appear as though it contains a complete topic list of any site. RH does make it appear as though they do with Slashdot. That is false and misleading. If they cannot legally carry stories referring to them that's fine, but then make it clear to browsers that you are deleting information instead of making it appear otherwise.

Re:Red Hat 6.0 and their future plans (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855407)

"Please remember that Red Hat is the only leading commercial distribution that is freely redistributable. This is very important to us all and we should support Red Hat."

Why should people support Redhat just because it's the 'only leading commercial distribution that is freely redistributable' ???

Two words:
Debian, Slackware.
(& Corel Linux ?)

Precedent that they don't have to ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855408)

Many portal sites that went public
never censored their wire-service feeds
to delete stories about themselves ...

Now, places that write their own copy
do (thestreet.com never wrote about their
own IPO ...), but third-party content is
different.

Redhat is doing this to censor, not for the SEC.

Don't be such an arse (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855409)

RH is targeting new users and is sold in stores like "Best Buy". As a commercial company it needs to be competitive both in ease-of-install and stability. These aren't users who hacked their systems complaining, they are ones who used the default install. If it's buggy it needs to be fixed.

It can only be expected... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855449)

RedHat is a growing company and is trying to do a billion things at once, what else can you expect! Your biggest complaint seems to be the price of the distribution, and as other have pointed out, you DON'T HAVE TO pay that much. If you feel its too much, don't pay for it! Also, powertools has always been mostly comprised of utilities freely downloadable off the internet, there is no surprise there. As for glint, it was *horrible* and clunky. GnoRPM on the other hand has numerous features and inculdes web searching. The only real problem with GnoRPM is its ridiculous sytem usage -- they really should have fixed this before shipping it. It takes up more cpu and ram than ANY other process on my system, which is ridiculous for the trivial tasks it does.

As for the gnome/e thing, that was a real bad mistake. GNOME/E are defintely not ready for primetime usage. Of course they refused to use KDE as default (which IMO would have been MUCH better) and thus the only other alterntative was the worse fvwm.

Slackware 4.0! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855450)

Thank goodness Slackware 4.0 is finally out.

RedHat Gripes and Quality (3)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855453)

Unlike so many others, I am not turned off by RedHats business forays. If they can bring commercial software makers into the fold fine, if they can make a buck fine, if they are the foremost distribution fine. RedHat has made a huge contribution to the Open Source movement and they are still doing it to this day. They are providing hackers like Miguel and Alan Cox with livelihoods to code Linux and release all of it under the GPL. You can still load one copy onto any number of computers ( unlike Caldera but that is another story. ) It's total crap that Redhat is selling out.

However, the quality thing is another issue. The thing that attracts people to Linux is its stability. If RH continues to release buggy distributions they are shooting themselves and us in the foot. Why should anyone switch from M$ crap to Linux crap. The 5 series distributions were decent but included a few major problems such as broken Linuxconfs and the program that erased the fstab for you. The problems with 6.0 seem to be rampant though ( Truetype fonts that stop working, Samba misconfigs, and crashes due to Gnome, etc.). Gnome may be the next big thing but it obviously isn't ready for the big time. It jumped from .3 to .9 for no apparent reason and even Miguel admitted the 1.0 release was too early. It is obvious that Gnome was falling quickly behind KDE and needed a 1.0 release to stay in the race. ( No I don't want to start a flame war about K and G - but the situation speaks for itself. )
As for me I am about ready to go with Debian or Mandrake Linux which is basically a fixed version of RH 6.0. I think unless RH straightens out this quality thing, they are injuring themselves as well as the rest of us by because as the foremost Linux distribution the rest of the world percieves RedHat as Linux.

SEC Quiet period (4)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1855454)

Being in the new york startup scene, I know the quiet period is an SEC requirement for a fact. The rule seems to be intended to prevent self promotion by the company going public. The idea is that the company files and the investors use the filing to judge what the market value should be. Based on the rules and format of the filing itself, it is probably a way of forcing the investor to look at a company in more objective terms than a normal press release.

-Dave

David Stenglein daves@bluetape.com

Check out http://www.sputnik7.com for a cool interactive music video experience. (Blatant Plug. We're nowhere close to our quiet period ;-)

RH6.0, and Red Hat (2)

Eric Green (627) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855456)

My primary concern is that Red Hat appears to be forgetting the reasons for their success. Some reasons why, in the past, I standardized on Red Hat:

1) Large amount of contributed software on their FTP site. Now the /incoming directory has disappeared and there are no directions on any Red Hat web site on how to contribute to RHCN, the purported replacement. Don't believe me? Try http://developer.redhat.com and http://rhcn.redhat.com!

2) Swift bug releases. In the past, Red Hat swiftly released bug fixes. Today, go browse BugZilla on http://developer.redhat.com . Look for problems with, for example, the NIS daemon. Look at the "Resolution" box. I'll bet you that 99% of the bugs you find will have "WONTFIX" or "LATER" (fixed in later release, not in 6.0) in the "Resolution" box. For some things this does not matter. For others it does -- for example, the NIS password daemon dying is a major bug for those of us who use NIS, and it is marked as "LATER". It appears that the automatic response of the poor slob they have monitoring these hundreds of bugs is to automatically put "LATER" or "WONTFIX" into that box so that he won't have to actually do anything about them (work? gosh, what's that?!).

3) A coherent web site. In the past, Red Hat had the best web site of any distribution. It was chock-full of information, you could find out almost anything you needed to know about Red Hat Linux by following the links, it pointed you to their mailing lists, etc. Now it's a mess. You can't find anything, the links are all broken (like the one on how to contribute to RHCN!), and you can tell that behind the scenes, the thing is torn to pieces and the mechanics are scratching their heads trying to figure out how to put it back together again. In short, it's a mess.

These are growing pains, certainly. But unless Red Hat remembers why they got where they are, they're going to start losing market share -- and once that happens, they'll lose their luster of invincibility and end up being just another distribution.

-- Eric

Re:*Glint* is "tried and true"? (1)

Doug McNaught (668) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855458)

Gnome not working is another issue entirely - and it's another reason why I'm waiting for a .1 or .2 release to bother to upgrade my RH boxes.

If you go to the latest Gnome summary [gnome.org] , it mentions a site that has precompiled RPMs of up-to-date Gnome packages for RH6.0. Apparently the latest stuff fixes a lot of bugs, so you might want to check it out.

-Doug

Netscape Crashes - FIX (1)

emil (695) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855459)

All netscape in RH6 crash on Java pages. Run the following command as root to fix it:

chkfontpath --add /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi

incoming.redhat.com (1)

MikeO (951) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855462)

On a slightly offtopic note, does anybody know why the incoming.redhat.com ftp site has been down for the past week?


--

Re:Red Hat censoring /. (1)

Thomas Charron (1485) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855464)

Please go read a book that covers SEC. While a company isn't held liable for what's in the NY Times that they happen to have in their store, they ARE in trouble if they blow it up and put it on their front page (Or store window).

Problems I've had with RH 6 (mostly gnome related) (1)

mattdm (1931) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855466)

1. If you tell Gnome to switch to WindowMaker instead of Enlightenment, it often decides to ignore you and bring up E anyway. (Even though if you go and check the setting in the config panel, it's still properly set to WM.) So much for making things simple.

2. I've had the problem on several boxes where gdm/xdm/kdm won't take keyboard input if you boot into runlevel 5. Works fine if you start with 3, and then go to 5 later. Really weird.

3. /dev/dsp seems to randomly get its ownership and permissions changed, and not changed back.

4. Something in gnome litters core dumps everywhere.

5. I've seen several cases of "slow login syndrome". When you log into X w/gnome, it inexplicably takes forever to load the window manager and gnome stuff. Once things get started, speed is ok. The syndrome persists even across sessions, which makes sense, but weirder still, you can cure it: switch to a console and kill gnome-session manually. Next time you log in, no problem.

6. A bunch of stuff that isn't necessary for most people isn't optional -- it's installed without either asking or even telling you. Why install getty when there's mingetty? Does everybody need pcmcia on their desktop? Is the spell-check dictionary really that vital? Things like this make it more work than it should be to make a minimal install.

These things are all fixable, or at least work-around-able. But not very slick for a commercial distribution.

--

ianyone else? (1)

mattdm (1931) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855467)

I'm not listing all this just to whine :) -- has anyone else seen these problems?

--

Why? (3)

suprax (2463) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855469)

I can see your understanding of being fustrated at the pains of RedHat linux, but there are some simple solutions which I will list.

1. Don't pay that much for linux. Linux started off as a free OS, and continues to this very second.. RedHat sells their distribution for that much to provide the user with good(unable to confirm), support. I have yet to buy a distribution of linux, and the closet I ever did come to it was 2 years ago when I ordered something like 12 cds with distributions and archive packs from cheapbyes for something like under 10 dollars. I now have acces to a T1(they claim) at school, and can download it if I am really determined to, which I am not really. Either order some 2 dollar cds from Cheapbytes, linuxcentral, or linuxmall, or download it using someone's fast link. Don't pay Microsoft prices.

2. When you are having problems, don't call RedHat support, as you have already learned. Every tech support department at companies consist of many phone operators sitting next to thousands of sheets of paper in tech manuals. When that tech support person told you that she checked with the techs, she was most likely meaning she opened a few manuals and looked around, not finding anything. Whenever I have problems, which dosen't happen much cause linux is mostly good to go when you have a good base install and maintaince, I go to IRC and ask. Sometimes it might be a gimp question, or gtk, or something. But I access IRC on one of the many networks and find the right people to ask what to do and how to fix it. 100% free and most of the times it's only a matter of minutes before someone can help me with the problem.

3. Extras pack. Hey now, no need for that. I have never even seen an extras pack, much less bought one. All it is, like you found out, is a bunch of applications that the RedHat people went and collected off the internet. Spend the ten minutes and download those few megs of programs that you really need to use.

I hope that this will guide others in aqiring linux and using it, as it will save you money, time, and paitence. Linux was started as a open source free project, let's keep it that way and not taint the idea that started it all.

What's up with this harassment story? (1)

Otter (3800) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855472)

Does anyone know what's up with yesterday's anti-Red Hat rant [segfault.org] on Segfault yesterday? As far as I can tell, someone at RH said or wrote something nasty about a Segfault editor, RH fired him and now she's making angry phone calls to Bob Young over something I can't understand. I found the article incomprehensible but maybe somebody can explain it....

*Glint* is "tried and true"? (1)

Rick_T (3816) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855473)

| I type "glint" to install some
| additional packages. What? Glint is nowhere to
| be found and GnoRPM is very confusing to use.
| Why would you drop something tried and trued
| just like that.

While some good points were made in the article, I have to voice some dissention on this point about glint. I'll give it "tried", I'll even give it "try*ing*", but I sure as heck won't give it "true". I've never gotten it do do much useful on my Alphas, so I'm certainly not sad to see it go. If it didn't outright crash it just didn't do anything at all.

Gnome not working is another issue entirely - and it's another reason why I'm waiting for a .1 or .2 release to bother to upgrade my RH boxes.

That and I'm waiting for some sort of multiplatform pack like there was for 5.2!

Red Hat Support Reply (2)

smooge (3938) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855475)

Dear Sir and other readers.

Thank you for voicing your problems with Red Hat Technical Support. We can only address those problems brought to our attention.


For other people reading this, and looking to either give positive or negative feedback on their support, please get the name of the Technician, the time you called, and send your input to sup-manager@redhat.com [mailto] .

From this we can talk to the technicians involved and work on better methods for clearing up such problems.

Stephen Smoogen

Support Manager

Re:Man, two words for you... (3)

Pretender (3940) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855476)

Yes, but the point of the post was that he had been actively supporting them this whole time, actually giving them money when he didn't have to because he believed in what they were doing - and this is how they repayed him.

I think it is a good thing when people who can afford to support Linux distros/developers/etc., do so. They help to make all this possible. This post is all about trying to determine whether it is worthwhile to continue supporting RedHat when things have changed for the worse this much. In the spirit of the post this man should instead turn his business over to SUSE or Debian or someone else, where the money will be actively used to enhance Linux for the rest of us rather than whatever RedHat has been doing with the money (and let me say that they have helped the cause out a lot, but it doesn't seem to be quite as high-quality help lately).

Charlie, someone who owns 1 legitmate copy of RedHat Linux 5.2 and is probably going to buy the next Debian distro next time instead, if he doesn't just switch to *BSD

glint was worthless (1)

cthonious (5222) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855481)

GnoRPM barely works. It's OK for looking at what's installed on your system, but that's about it. The buttons don't work, some commands don't do anything, it crashes, ad infinitum. I'll be nice when it's done but isn't close to being done.

Glint was about the most annoying linux software I've ever used. None of the functionality of the CLI.

Anyone who uses RH has been using the CLI rpm command if you actually need to do anything.

Warning: Mandrake is no better! (1)

Juggler (5256) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855482)

As for me I am about ready to go with Debian or Mandrake Linux which is basically a fixed version of RH 6.0. I think unless RH straightens out this quality thing, they are injuring themselves as well as the rest of us by because as the foremost Linux distribution the rest of the world percieves RedHat as Linux.

I feel I should warn you - Redhat 5.2 was stable. Mandrake 5.3, which was based on 5.2 was not.

I know, because I make my own mini-distro, and burn CDs for people. I tried basing it on Mandrake 5.3 and boy did I regret it - they made alot of very silly mistakes; their modifications to the initscripts just plain didn't work, they included "updates" from RedHat that were broken, and so on. It really looked like they hadn't even tried booting their own distro! So please be careful about presending Mandrake as a "fixed" RedHat - the last one sure wasn't.

Perhaps they've gotten their act together since, but that experience with "Mandrake modifications" left me with the feeling that they were amatures...

Re:RedHat (1)

castle (6163) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855485)

Amen Slackbro.

Though I wish glibc would be converted to with this particular distro I am *quite* pleased with
slackware for ease of use stability and the name;)

With 4.1 slackware I am sure I will be a pleased
Linux user. Though unlike many linux users RedHat was what I started with and I moved to slackware later.

PCMCIA (2)

Booker (6173) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855486)

I always wondered why pcmcia was installed by default... that one is very weird.

OTOH, all the people listing bugs/complaints here *really should* submit them to the Red Hat bug list, as well. That's how you make it better.

deja vu (2)

tim pickering (6930) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855489)

every x.0 redhat release since 2.0 (which i started with) has caused people grief. i've had my share of problems with 6.0 (install not mounting /home or /usr properly, apmd messing up TZ info, latex getting hosed, scientific apps like IDL and IRAF not working with glibc2.1, etc.), but i certainly had problems with earlier x.0 releases as well. 4.0 was an even bigger mess than 6.0. 5.0 didn't seem as bad, though i did have to spend several evenings rebuilding stuff to work with glibc. now that i have 6.0 running, it runs fine and i don't have any stability problems with either KDE or gnome/E.

redhat really tries to push the latest technology into their x.0 releases, sometimes perhaps before they're ready (glibc in 5.0, gnome in 6.0). they did at least make betas available for 5.0 and 6.0, but how many people really tried them out? and how many other current dists are running glibc2.1 even though it's been clearly stated that it will be a key part of the LSB? i for one appreciate redhat taking the risks of staying out on the bleeding edge. it would be really easy for them to be safe and corporate and let others innovate and take the heat.

redhat also has a good bug tracking system in the form of bugzilla.redhat.com that i encourage all redhat users to take advantage of when they find a bug or a problem. the more people take advantage of it, the better redhat 6.1, 6.2, and later will be.

tim

What is this about? ( lusers ) (1)

Mongoose (8480) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855494)

RedHat 6.0 runs on kernel 2.2.5 and glibc2.1, so you should have known it would mean a clean install. I tired to everyone using a distrobution for an excuse... if you can't maintain a UNIX system stick with NT. Sure NT isn't that stable ( Look at eBay cgi servers crash all the time. ), but any idiot can blame NT and be justified at least.

Gnome, Star Office and everything works on my Redhat 6.0 and debian ( glibc2.1 potato/alita ) boxen... it's because I know what I'd doing. It's not the distro it's you. =)

It's like running slackware and complaining about lack of glibc support... and another thing I hater are newbies that ask to ask questions, then when you give them a paper... they can't read the damn thing... man I'm angry today. =)

RH 6.0 bloating (1)

Angst Badger (8636) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855496)

The 120 meg minimum install bothers me, too, as it made it impossible to install on an old 486 with a (very) small HD that I was planning to use for IP masquerading for my home LAN. Yeah, I know I can install Linux manually and not have to screw with the automated install, but that's why I bought RH 6.0 -- I wanted a relatively painless install. Instead, I get an inflexible installer that slings tons of unnecessary junk on my hard drive. If I was a newbie freshly emerged from Windows, I might not be surprised, but there are too many bare bones single-floppy Linux distros for 120 megs to be a minimum install.

To add insult to injury, the RH installer doesn't check to insure that enough drive space is available before attempting the install. Hell, even Microsoft can do that much.

I won't turn my back on Redhat just yet, but the odds are very good that my next distribution will be Debian.

A minor point... (1)

Eric Hillman (9785) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855497)

I'd just like to point out something which DefCon seems to have glossed over -- he says "My web server (Redhat 5.0) has been up since Sept. 98 without a glitch. My Redhat 6.0 workstation locks up every few days..." It seems to me that what he's describing is Gnome crashing, not Linux itself. Were he running Gnome on that 5.0 box it would probably be every bit as flaky (possibly worse, considering the system & library shuffling he'd have to do.)

I think there are valid issues here -- RH has raised the price of their product, included a bunch of experimental tools and features, discarded some old standbys, and apparently pinned all their hopes on the Gnome desktop. The substitution of GnoRPM for glint is something I was unaware of, and I think bodes rather ill.

Altogether, however, I think RH's track record has been a fairly good one. RH's support of Gnome is admirable, and the fact that they decided to rely too heavily on it before it was really ready is a regrettable misstep, but one I think they'll recover from.

Of course, that's the sort of thing people have been saying about Windows NT since 3.51... We'll see how 6.1 turns out, I guess.

5.0 was a big mess. (1)

Alexey Nogin (10307) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855498)

If you do not think 5.0 was a big mess, it just means you were really lucky. I had tons of problems with 5.0 because of buggy glibc. In particular, when /etc/group had long lines (longer than 4096), login in 5.0 would segfault - not fun.

And I agree that Bugzilla is really good, I was very happy with it several months ago, but after 6.0 was released, RedHat response to Bugzilla problems became very slow.

RHCN instructions are not so hard to find (2)

Alexey Nogin (10307) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855499)

If you go to http://developer.redhat.com/ [redhat.com] or http://rhcn.redhat.com/ [redhat.com] , you only need to click on the "Contrib|Net" from the image map in top right corner and you would see contribution instructions and a Sign up now! [redhat.com] link.

But I agree that RedHat sites have too many broken links.

Re:It should not be expected... (1)

cswiii (11061) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855501)

Red Hat has always said that they are not trying to make money of of Linux itself, but through packaging it nicely, publishing materials, and providing support.

Linux is a very open system. For Red Hat to outright refuse to help this guy with his problem because it didn't fit their narrow schema of what a 'problem' is, they are failing to provide support for their product.

If Redhat is going to adhere to 'Open Standards', they need to provide for the standard basic Linux support, as well as for any proprietary things that they add. There's absolutely no reason for them to make the determination not to "support the problem.

The Linux community must never allow the OS to be limited by what one company considers problematic or not.

Not flamebait: KDE 1.1.1 and RH6 are stable (2)

te (12575) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855503)

Last Sunday I had the unfortunate need to do an emergency upgrade. Meaning, old faithful (my harddrive) took a big dive. I ran to the local store and snatched up another, slapped it in, and installed RH6.

Now, I'm a KDE user. As such, I knew that RH somehow took the stock KDE distro and "tweaked" it to point to directories they thought they liked. So, I chose not to install their KDE 1.1, but left all else the same. I then installed all the kde 1.1.1 RPMs from ftp.kde.org.

My system has been extremely stable, no problems at all. Everything is working, everything is nice. No compatibility problems to be found yet (this is a new machine as far as parts go).

Just wanted to voice - it's not all bad out there, some of us acutally have good luck and no problems. :)

-te

Red Hat 6.0 and their future plans (2)

Howard Roark (13208) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855504)

I have RH 6.0 installed on three machines. 2 old 486s and a Sparc SS1. I did not have any problems on the Intel iron (other than the new version being big and slow) but the Sparc version is a mess. X wouldn't even work out of the box and a lot of the installation features are broken.

Now I won't excuse Red Hat for the quality problems in 6.0 but I can understand them. 6.0 is a big new version with a new kernel (that isn't mature by the way) and a lot of other new stuff. I expect the next good release from Red Hat will be 6.2.

I bought my CDs from Cheap Bytes this time as the $79.99 price is more than I am willing to pay. Previously I bought the "Official" Red Hat version (since my first 4.1) but the new price is a mistake.

I have never used Red Hat tech support and I doubt if I ever would. I run a technical support department for a proprietary software company and I know that, by definition, technical support always sucks. There just isn't any way that a technician (not the programmer) talking to a customer on the phone can magically devine the solutions to many problems. Real support means flying an engineer to your site and working on the problem hands-on. But you can't get that for $80.

Now for as much as Red Hat is the company we all love to hate, I have to point out that the others are so much worse. Please remember that Red Hat is the only leading commercial distribution that is freely redistributable. This is very important to us all and we should support Red Hat.

I wish that Red Hat would improve the printed documentation that is included with the Official version since that adds value and reduces their support costs. Right now the manuals do not warrant the $80 price of the product.

In reading about the IPO filing, Red Hat plans to become less relient on sales of the distribution and wants instead to become a "Linux portal". This is a really bad idea. Look at their site. Does anybody go there for the priviledge of reading censored editions of Slashdot? No, you go there looking for product and support for product. Red Hat should become a service company that supports Linux for paying customers. They should give away the distribution to make sure the Linux they get to support is the one they control.

My computer, my way. Linux
--
Howard Roark, Architect

SEC ? (1)

warmi (13527) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855505)

Could anyone familiar with this term explain what is is and how it relates to RedHat situation ?
Thanks

joe user here... (1)

josepha48 (13953) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855508)

hey I resemble that remark, my name is Joe. hehehe

yes I have noticed that GNOME crashes more than most programs, it is trying to do more I/O than most other window manager too, it seems. GNOME tracks the mose movements I believe, and mouse overs and such. It has never crashed my system thou. Just X

I have thought about using debian, and may it they up to 2.2.x soon, and I find out how to do .deb's.

until then it is the hat..

Better Than 5.1 (1)

VinceJH (14059) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855509)

Compared to 5.1, RH6 is great. I have installed it on 3 machines, and the install went smoothly.

I had bugs, you have to halt the machine from the commandline once, then you can halt it from GDM. Maybe it is becase I just telinited to level 5, whatever. The version of E they included would maximize windows over the panel. And the upgrade downgraded my gnome packages, ruined sendmail/procmail, and installed some pretty silly packages for a workstation (nfs, pcmia-whatever its called).

Netscape is pretty stable, (the netscape that came with 5.1 was full of bugs, text boxes wouldn't even work). Gnome isn't hardly as unstable as I hear it is. Overall, worth the 5 bucks to get it from cheapbytes.

Red Hat 6.0 (1)

Old Ben (14626) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855511)

I agree. I have had many problems with 6.0 that I didn't with earlier distributions; but I'm willing to bet that they're config problems on my end.

Especially Netscape's running in monochrom mode under AfterStep (when AfterStep is in 24bit mode).

i agree (1)

jpgrimes (15330) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855517)

redhat 6.0 is the first redhat i've had troubles with. on reboot the gnome display manager wouldn't take my password so i ended up having to reinstall instead of just upgrade. i've had a lot more X windows crashes and netscape crashes since. Unfortunately (not redhat's fault) i also struggled with getting several scientific applications (like idl) running as they didn't work with glibc 2.1.
I find gnome crashes regularly now (I never had troubles with it when I installed it on my own). But then I still prefer kde and windowmaker so ...
Actually I think getting rid of glint was great but then I usually just type rpm.

My main point is that I had a lot of troubles with my install of 6.0 when I never have had troubles before. Several of the people I work with had similar problems. this worries me.

Re:Problems I've had with RH 6 (mostly gnome relat (2)

bdjohns1 (17720) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855520)

4. Something in gnome litters core dumps everywhere.

gmc or panel, probably - upgrading to a newer version helped. The 1.0 RPMs that shipped with RH6 are pretty good, but they're a lot more stable in current incarnation.


5. I've seen several cases of "slow login syndrome". When you log into X w/gnome, it inexplicably takes forever to load the window manager and gnome stuff. Once things get started, speed is ok. The syndrome persists even across sessions, which makes sense, but weirder still, you can cure it: switch to a console and kill gnome-session manually. Next time you log in, no problem.

I encountered a similar problem, then I compiled the RPM files myself from source (and threw in the PentiumPro optimizations of PGCC) for gnome-libs and gnome-core, along with WindowMaker. Now, it starts up quickly enough for me.

Re:In Summary (1)

Darth Maul (19860) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855523)

I think the buggiest part is linuxconf, not
gnome. I've had a few things in linuxconf
actually shut down my machine... quite
odd. If I'm lucky it'll just core dump.
Also, gmc sometimes doesn't want to shut
down when I log out, but that's minor.
Other than that, it's been great.

Kinda weird to read in the manual "oh, just
run glint to install new packages", then
tried it, only to not have glint anywhere
on the system. Don't these people try
things out like that before shipping?

-Mike

Red Hat censoring /. (0)

MoxCamel (20484) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855525)

Anyone else have a problem with Red Hat cutting Red Hat stories from their slashdot feed? They say the SEC requires it, but I think that's an excuse. They don't control Slashdot content, so I doubt they could be held liable for it.

What's next, cutting stories about rival Linux distributions because their shareholders require it?

Re:GNOME is what's unstable, not RH6 itself (1)

jayb (20890) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855526)

While in Gnome, run the program 'switchdesk' (or something like that). It allows you to switch between Gnome and KDE.

Re:RedHat Gripes and Quality (1)

-alex- (21515) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855527)


They are providing hackers like Miguel and Alan Cox with livelihoods to code Linux and release all of it under the GPL.
Is Miguel in any way associated with RedHat? He works on Gnome and works for a university in Mexico. Maybe you mean indirectly because RedHat supports Gnome?
I think some people confuse problems with Gnome as problems with RedHat. Although, RedHat chose to use Gnome.

Re:Red Hat censoring /. (0)

Rombuu (22914) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855529)

I love it when people comment about things they have no clue about.

Man, two words for you... (1)

Rombuu (22914) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855530)

Cheap Bytes...

Granted it won't make Red Hat 6 any more stable, but you would only be out $1.99 instead of $79.99.

Welcome to the world of Big Business (1)

Zoltar (24850) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855533)

I have had more problems with 6.0 than I did with 5.2. I have purchsed both 5.2 and 6.0 because I wanted to feel like I was giving somethign back, and I don't regret it, however I will not just rush out and purchase the next version.

I think the main problem is that when you are presenting yourself as a *real business* you raise the level of expectations. I have had a lot of fun playing with "not ready for prime time Linux software*, but when I drop $ 60 for the latest release I expect a little more, and I get frustrated quicker.

RedHat will have to do MUCH more QA work before releases if they want to get the real $$$$$.

RedHat is the first to "leave the nest" and many people will be watching. Thsi should be interesting.

Netscape in Monochrome (3)

corB (26284) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855534)

Sounds like the netscape + 24bpp pimaps problem. Here is the answer from the XFree86 FAQ:

Q.D3- wrong colors or black and white images in 24bpp modes for Netscape, xanim, WABI and others This is a long-standing problem with all those client programs. It is NOT a problem in XFree86.

Technical details: it is caused by a relatively new feature of XFree86 (24bpp modes with 24bpp pixmaps) that is very poorly understood by many client authors: they assume 32bpp pixmaps instead of asking the XFree86 server for those details. Others (like Netscape) do ask for the pixmap size, but since they don't support 24bpp pixmaps, they fall back to using 1bpp (monochrome) pixmaps...

The current public versions of XFree86 can only support a 1:1 mapping between the framebuffer depth and the pixmap depth. Some commercial Xservers support 32bpp pixmaps in 24bpp modes, and hence they present an interface to client programs that happens to match their assumptions. XFree86 4.0 will also support this feature.

There are two possible solutions to this right now:

- do not use 24bpp modes, but rather 16bpp or 32 bpp modes. 32bpp is best, but it requires more video memory than 24bpp.

- don't use broken X clients. There are patches for Netscape and even compiled binaries on the net that fix this bug.

4 yrs. w/ Redhat, now I'm with Suse/Caldera (1)

Jean (27458) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855535)

The value (performance/price) of Redhat just went too low for me. No way I could justify it. All my friends with Redhat 6.0 only complain about it. Redhat 5.0 was a similarly buggy, rush-it-out-the-door effort. I've been pretty happy with Caldera - tech support is sketchy - but I don't need it like I would need RedHat's.

Re:Red Hat censoring /. (0)

Jburkholder (28127) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855537)

>Anyone else have a problem with Red Hat cutting Red Hat stories from their slashdot feed?

No, they are just following their obligations under the SEC, no self-promotion during the 'quiet period' between their filing of the IPO and the actual issue. Not issuing press releases or posting links to stories about themsleves on their website is standard procedure for any company who is about to tender an Initial Public Offering.

No, I think the only person who would have a problem with this is someone who is un-informed about matters in this area. ;-)

Re:Fine, then they should not carry a modified /. (1)

Jburkholder (28127) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855538)

> they should not be allowed to mirror a site which they have edited for content.

Hmm, not be allowed by whom? /. or the SEC? I think there may be a valid point that they should have an all-or-nothing policy, but what difference does it really make?

If people are interested in RedHat enough to visit their web site and see links to slashdot and then come here, isn't that a good thing? They are not allowed to make public statements regarding the IPO beyond the S-1 filing. This is obviously being extended to posting links on their web site.

So they are complying with the letter of the law, and still leaving the door open for people to find slashdot, where they will probably find the stories anyway and see something besides the Jack Bryer BullSh*t (tm) that might help them make an informed decision.

"..and I'd appreciate it if you'd ease up off my back about it." ;-)

Re:Red Hat censoring /. (1)

Jburkholder (28127) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855539)

So go tell them that if that is your opinion. I don't see how that is 'clearly a distortion' of anything.



SuSE Linux (1)

nxg125 (30911) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855547)

I have had some of the same problems with SuSE. I ordered 6.1 about 3 weeks ago and still have not received it. A statement on their web site [suse.com] simply says there are too many orders to fill and they are working as fast as they can. I tried to call them but have only received their answering service. Their web site also has dead links and outdated pages floating around.

I know that SuSE, as well as RedHat and other vendors, are committed to providing a quality product to their users. However, they are also committed to making a profit for their companies. I hope that these companies know what they're getting themselves into when they start heavily advertising their products.

I will continue to support SuSE the same way Stuart will continue to support RedHat. I hope that the business end of their operation improves however.

Have people experienced anything like this with other vendors?

Re:Red Hat censoring /. (2)

remande (31154) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855549)

I don't claim to know about SEC codes on this. But step back a moment and think.

If Red Hat's Slashdot feed pulls all Red Hat stories, it makes it look as if Red Hat is unnewsworthy to Slashdot. That's some pretty nasty publicity there.

Sure, we do a lot of Red Hat bashing (personally, I like them), but the bashing is positive publicity. Some attacks are the overcommercialism. Others are attacks on being the top dog. Others are about quality. We keep on calling Red Hat the Microsoft of Linux: those are buy words in the securities market!

I don't claim to know whether Red Hat is required to remove those stories. However, they have nothing to gain and much to lose by doing so. I figure they wouldn't pull those stories if they didn't have to. An SEC ban sounds like a good explanation to me. Anybody have better ones?

So are you going to stick with RedHat? / Redneck (1)

abamfici (35737) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855552)

When the new RH comes out, will you get it or something else?

Has anyone else noticed that when RH dropped the
"Redneck" install language going from 5.1 to 5.2 it started to suck? Politically correct, BAH!

You could tell they were starting to loose their roots and instead of having fun (isn't that what it's all about?) they were trying to make money.


~Kevin
:)

RH 6.0 (1)

Junta (36770) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855553)

I'm running it now, haven't had a problem with it. Of course, I opted not to install any gnome stuff as I have no need of it, I like plain ol' windowmaker fine... I downloaded it for free, I did buy the 5.1 version to support them, but that was the the only one I bought because of my budget, and I certainly am glad that if I was to buy a redhat, it was before the prices raised. I don't think it's worth that much... Probably I'll switch when some other distribution releases something up to date and stable, like Debian or Stampede. I think RedHAt is better for new users and windows-users, but not the choice for a server distro...

On the issue of tech support, if the story is true, there is/are some person/people to fire, a tech support person with that attitude should not be allowed to wrok like that. My only experience with their tech support was them telling me they didn't support a problem with their broken printer setup for certain Canon printers... I had to research and fix it myself (stupid redhat setup didn't realize that the printer was not designed for the bpp)

Well, I'll be fine about Redhat's existance as long as they don't go off writing proprietary libraries and breaking compatibility... But I probably won't use them for too much longer if the distribution gets any more bloated than it already is (a 120 meg minimum install seems insane)

Re:Problems I've had with RH 6 (mostly gnome relat (1)

Junta (36770) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855554)

I had the same sort of troubles with slow login and dsp.. When I used gdm it was fine, but I prefer startx.. I tried editing out all kinds of stuff in the startup, but nothing... I don't use gnome-session or anything... The dsp really annoys me I could not find any sensible thing doing it.. Reminds me of how windows does stuff for no reason, it scares me.. and the install of unneeded stuff as part of a 'minimal' install also seems too windowish and bad...

Re:Netscape in Monochrome (1)

Junta (36770) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855555)

Umm.. no, Xfree86 simply implemented a more efficient 24 bpp mode remaining compatible in all other ways and provided hooks so that if a program was properly coded for older versions, it would have worked fine for 24bpp.. They behave exactly the same as older clients except less buggy in standard color depths (8,16,32,etc..)

Re:Man, two words for you... (1)

g33kt0r (39076) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855558)

Cheap Bytes = no tech support.... something the guy wanted I am sure!



Re:Why? (1)

g33kt0r (39076) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855559)

I agree, when you have a problem, use irc. You would be surprised at how people are willing to help each other out (if you are not a rude a**-hole). Better yet you can idle in a chat room and if you hear someones plea for help and you know the answer spend 2 seconds and give them a hand.

Also use the HOW-TO's they are mirrored at like a thousand places over the globe, so there shouldnt be a problem finding them.

Join a linux mailing list. You dont ever have to post in it, but i am sure amongst the other junk email you have laying around your inbox that there is room for a mailing list email.

If there is a Linux User Group in your area contact them. You dont have to go to many meetings to get a world full of help from people who know linux. If you live in a city with a college in it also check there, i know alot of college students who use linux are active in Computer/Linux User Groups.

Re:Man, two words for you... (3)

Sun Tzu (41522) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855560)

The part of his experience I found most apalling was their refusal to support their product because they didn't understand *why* he wanted to use it (in that way). As a sysadmin, I sometimes uncover a bug by doing something that the tech's don't undertand. The fact that they don't understand *why* is no reason to refuse support. I will not accept that excuse -- unless they can tell me a better way!

Re:SEC ? (1)

arthurs_sidekick (41708) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855561)

Could anyone familiar with this term explain what is is and how it relates to RedHat situation ?
SEC stands for "Securites and Exchange Commission", the US governmental agency most directly responsible for regulating publicly traded (i.e. on the stock market) companies.

a little in favor of redhat 6.0... (2)

xy (49954) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855564)

I agree with a lot of the above complaints, and can't really comment on others (like tech support)...however, I installed redhat 6.0 as soon as it was released, and was very impressed. the installer worked correctly (and on the first try, too, something that's never happened before), and even set up X right. I haven't had any crashing problems yet, and gnome seems pretty stable, though there are some glitches (weird app crashes, etc, but nothing that takes out X or the rest of the system). The new GUI stuff is pretty slick, though I honestly don't use most of...personally, I think a graphical package-management tool is a waste of disk space and system resources.

On the down side, the RedHat 6.0 sparc distrib plain sucks. They really should have worked on it for a few weeks longer before releasing it. I have a sparcstation 5 I was using as an NFS/mail server at work running redhat 5.2...after "upgrading" to redhat 6 and finding that basic and necessary apps don't function (sendmail says "bus error" and dumps core on startup, for example), and that the knfs stuff doesn't _quite_ work as well as it should on sparc, either, I decided to switch the machine over to solaris 7; it's installing as I'm writing this, actually. RedHat should really place proper functionality ahead of releasing all 3 architectures they support at the same time.

The other problem I have with RH6.0 is something one other reader observed: you can't do a really small install any more. Well, you can, but it's not easy. All the big ugly GUI stuff is becoming less optional then it used to be...RedHat would do well to set up their installer so that you can still do something useful with a 386 or 486 class machine, without having to manually select only those packages you _really_ need.

anyway, my 2 cents...

Give away the distro (1)

HarpMan (53271) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855565)

Brilliant idea!

Very nice letter (1)

Xanthien (55056) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855568)

That letter did point out a lot of Red Hat's problems, especially the "tech support" bit. If/When you get a reply, we would all appreciate you posting that too.

Heard of the SEC quiet period? (1)

kundalini (250733) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855573)

Know anything about the regulatory requirements for filing an IPO? Know what an S-1 is?

Then, please, don't do accusing Red Hat of censorship.

Piece of cake for me.... (1)

kundalini (250733) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855574)

I agree, I had an easy install on RH 6.0. Jeeze, I was playing with GNOME in about 15 minutes, if that. I haven't had any serious probs. with GNOME either, for what's that's worth.

I wonder if some of the problems people are having is related to installed RH on older/outdated hardware? Just a thought.

Modifying headlines? (1)

kundalini (250733) | more than 15 years ago | (#1855575)

For one thing, the phrase modifying headlines implies that RH is editing headlines. Which I haven't seen them doing. They omitting references to themselves.

But, on the idea that it's illegal, cowardly or morally suspect to reference certain stories on a website, but not others...well, doesn't that destroy the whole /. phenom? Doesn't /. not carry the full set of headlines from news sites?

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