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Rasterman Summarizes his Red Hat Leave

CmdrTaco posted more than 15 years ago | from the closing-words dept.

Enlightenment 205

sRparish writes "Rasterman has made it to California, and has posted a very interesting article entitled: Post Mortem and Deliverance " He expands somewhat on things you've already read here, and compares his experience at RH to jwz's at Netscape.

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Re:Ouch... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854006)

To me, "festering crowd" sounds more like a description of a bunch of worshipful fanboys than it sounds like a description of all enlightenment users.

And after this tedious and repetitive series of bitchings from raster, I find it's pretty easy to imagine him as a programming prima donna surrounded by a cluster of fawning nitwits.

Re:Redhat showing it's growing pains? (1)

gavinhall (33) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854007)

Posted by gadflyjones:

I really suggest changing your distro. Personally I just bought SuSE 6.1, and have been very pleased. Most of the system configuration is contained in one file, not in cryptic psuedo-userfriendly program. Not that redhat or any of the other distros suck, it's just that I like to have everything in one place.

Rasterman Should deliver (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854008)

He should deliver before complain. We heard E
for so long but Where it is? Beta or even alpha
won't count. If I am a manager, I won't call it

Rasterman should do E at his off-work hour since
its pace is so slow.

Re:Like JWZ: more than you know (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854025)

JWZ's departing probably helped the remaining
team see more clearly what the problems were.

Signs of tension. (2)

hypnotik (11190) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854026)

As a Linux user and lover I'm beginning to see the cracks in the Linux community, but I'm not all that convinced that they are bad.

Why do I say that? It's a psychology thing really. People have taken Linux, and elevated it from what it was really good at (a server), and promoted it into a Microsoft Killer. When they did that, they assumed that Linux has to have a single user interface. Linux still has a long ways to go to beat Microsoft at it's game in that respect.

But, here is the clincher. Linux doesn't have to beat Microsoft at it's game. As I write this, the rules are changing. The world isn't just about PC's anymore. A PC is nothing if it can't connect with something. (we all know that, right?) Microsoft Operating systems have always been developed from a standalone PC view, and when they network, they're not particularly good at it.

However, in the new world order, the network will reign supreme. The strength of your OS is judged by what you can connect with and how stable you are. This is where Linux reigns supreme. It connects to just about everything under the Sun out of the box. Linux has already won that round.

Yet, why should we play by MS's rules with one interface for everyone? Does everyone want to drive the same car? Who says we can't win on the desktop with more then one interface? If you get in a Ferrari F50, it's not going to be the same experience/same interface as a Dodge Neon, but... you know what? I'm pretty damn sure that almost everybody could figure out how to drive that Ferrari.

I applaud Red Hat on it's efforts to bring Linux to the business world, yet.... I want the choice to run *my* Linux, the way I want to run it. It's about the users. The users reign supreme in Linux, and I think that's the vision that Red Hat gave up when it started courting the business world.

Anarchy - Used to describe the tension between moral autonomy and political authority

who cares? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854027)

rasterman sounds like a walking ego...

Some thoughts (3)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854028)

My anonymously cowardly thoughts:

Firstly I would like to comment on the cite:

"Given the type of crowd that festers around Raster, I think it in our best interest to just go on with business as usual. It has been clear for awhile that he and his posse were not GNOME supporters, and nothing we"

I surely can understand why Raster get's pissed off by this kind of thing. I think it was unfair by the guy who said it to go behind Raster's back like that. And with posse. Wtf? Is it the people on people on #e he is refering to? I can hardly imagine anobody of those to be anti-GNOME, but rather pro GNOME.

While it was unethical by Raster to go public with this kinda thing, hell, who cares about ethics. Wouldn't you be pissed off by a guy who has been talking shit behind your back for about 1 and a 1/2 years. Talking shit behind someones back is unethical in the first place.

Personally I think that GNOME would be better off with a default light gtk based window manager, but not be totally dependent on that wm, so the user still can choose what wm to use. Basically turning E into GNOMEwm is not in the best interest for both E or GNOME. GNOME is better of with a very simple wm if it is to compete with Windows[TM] and KDE. I really think GNOME is better of with a default wm, so we don't need to make simplified E themes and "degrade" E to fit in with GNOME. Also I think that FVWM and the likes are to messy & butt ugly to be used as a default wm. I think RedHat did something wrong, when they included E as the default GNOMEwm in RH 6.0, they basically raped E. And also because E is still under development, I think that gave the user a wrong impression about both E and GNOME, not only one app under devel but two, that is bound to make a disaster. I think that in the starting phase of the Linux Desktop reveloution, we should not flame each other to death over mistakes like this. Surely RedHat will learn something about this and *hopefully* doing it right the second time. Maybe now we will have a gtk based GNOMEwm instead...

This is becuase E is something of it's own. It's so much more. It shouldn't be unseperately tied to GNOME, but that doesn't mean it is *anti* GNOME. For me E represents a kind of graphical user interface that I would very much like to see finished. Yes I like the Eyecandy, yes I like it's configurability and innovation. And while people may say it is bloatware, then don't use it, use something else. And I wouldn't want E to change into GNOMEwm I want E. I like both E, the GTK widget set and GNOME, and i will happily use both GNOME with this simple GTK based GNOMEwm. And When I am in the mood for E, I will just switch to E. Who said you gotta just use one environment.

And while the latest events are sad. In the end RedHat will also benefit by this, Now RedHat will probably use something else for a default GNOMEwm and the Windows[Tm] users migrating to Linux will be happy. But RedHat will also benefit from the development of E, This revelutionary user interface (yes i say revelutionary, please tell me about something else with the coolness factor E currently has, without mentioning Window Maker off course) will also draw new users to Linux. I know this, It was screenshots of E that made me try Linux for the first time! And through the beatiful exterior of E, I also found out (after poking a lot around) that hey I like the interior as well, I like the kernel, I like the GPL & GNU philosophy, I like the stabiliy, I like the command line interface (and this coming from an old Amiga user, MCSE who don't like MS products and therefore have no job :P ) Now I find myself using, GNOME, E, Window Maker, hell I can't decide. I Like them all, and I am even if i don't use it, I am still impressed with KDE.

I Support Raster & Mandrake... And I also support RedHat I don't like all the negative press they are getting lately, I think people are getting paranoid, but only time will show.

Sorry about the english, I am *.no

Anonymous Coward

Re:luser Worship (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854029)

why does anyone care what rasterman thinks anyway?

he left his job because he didnt like his boss.

big freaking deal. happens all the time.

Re:INS (1)

FiNaLe (4289) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854030)

oh come on... don't moderate this..
its made in jest, funny as hell, takes like 4 lines on the page.

Rob Malda, CmdrTaco, when you grep the pages, kick this moderators ass.

Companies ARE created with altruistic ideology (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854031)

You're looking at what companies become and forget
about how they start. The people who start
companies that become something do so because the
company represents some value or values to the
person(s) who create it. Money is secondary at best.

Without getting into a bunch of temperament junk,
there are some people in life who like to create
something from nothing, and are willing to work
very hard in conditions of uncertainty to do so.
There are other people who are better at
maintaining an existing system or tradition, and
those tend to be the ones who take over after
the startup reaches its "point of legitimacy"
for lack of better terms.

What we can learn from the Red Hat guy's rant is
that he's value-driven. He's not a careerist. Careerists make all the right moves, work for the right companies, and don't burn bridges. If you're
that way, fine.

The industry would REALLY grow if we'd just learn
that, and make sure value-driven people get the jobs and environments they need to do the amazing feats they are sometimes capable of.

You might argue that a pure money-driven careerist could start up a great company or product really well, and while this is technically true (anybody can do anything if pushed to it), it's not likely. If money is my value, I'll try to get it the easiest way, which is not to make waves within a system, let someone pay me, and go up the ladder. Or I'll get something going, and focus only on survival as a mom-and-pop company.

businesses are started to make money, but awesome businesses are started to make a living(and more), which requires some money.

If that's not true, then linux shouldn't exist.

Re:Moderation (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854032)

Slashdot's main articles are already moderated. You are the moderator. Through "preferences" you have the ability to kill the category what is unlikely to be of interest. It is more accurate, therefore, to rephrase the question and ask whether this article is worthy to be in category "Enlightement". I think it is.

Re:Ouch... (1)

Dengue (10077) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854033)

It's Festus.
Can't remember the actors name though.

Bitter (1)

Gerp (20138) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854037)

Hopefully Raster can find a job somewhere that will support his efforts more whole-heartedly.

No need for a resume, just a URL [] !

Hero Worship (1)

gavinhall (33) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854038)

Posted by d106ene5:

Is it really that interesting as to why this guy quit his job?

It seems like we're really obsessing over what is largely a personal matter. I have no idea why these people set up rant pages when they leave their jobs. How tacky.

This is getting old (2)

Skyshadow (508) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854042)

What ever happened to the old days when someone could just quit from an organization or effort and just be gracefull about it? I mean, it seems sort of tacky to air out all the dirty laundry from where you work (So and so is a moron, someone else didn't agree with me and thus sux, etc.).

JWZ was one thing -- his complaints at least were about the project. He was expecting to "ship product" in a year, and was entitled to gripe about how slow things were going when it didn't (although personally I can't imagine how Mozilla could have turned around that fast given how broken the original code was).

JWZ's gripes were over the lack of progress in a public effort. Raster's bitching about how he couldn't get along with someone else at the office is something else entirely.


Moderation (3)

Dredd13 (14750) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854044)

We need a way to moderate the stories themselves. That way we can downplay stories like this (which aren't truly all that relevant to the general populace..)

Reality Check -- EVERYONE here has probably quit their job at one point in time or another because they didn't like someone they worked with. I know I have. Sure I may have had a web page up about it at one point in time, but I certainly didn't go telling the world about it, putting it in Slashdot, because frankly its not that important. If someone knew me, came to my web page, they saw it and understood why I moved from one city to another.

Yes, I can understand Raster's complaint.

No, I don't want to hear any more about it.

Even if I do dislike Red Hat as a company, which I do, this type of ranting (and /. giving it "column-inches") is highly inappropriate.

Which leads back to moderation.... how about stories themselves start out with points that moderators can reduce if the story just completely shouldn't be on /. ?

My thoughts (2)

HoserHead (599) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854047)

I've liked the idea of Enlightenment for a long time. I originally tried it out at version 0.13.1 on slackware 3.4 -- getting all the things to compile: imagemagick, imlib, the million and a half-odd graphics libraries, etc., was a huge pain, but I did like the fact that things were fairly customisable. I also liked that it offered me a way other than an xterm to get things launched, etc.

Now enlightenment has undergone a rewrite, supposedly to remove a lot of cruft and make it more extensible. When I first used E, it was more of a desktop than simply a window manager; making it a window manager again, albeit a very advanced and complex one, seemed like a good idea to me.

E's pagers, the minisnapshots, are neat. The fact that it is completely configurable is neat. But, it's not a window manager any longer. I first got concerned when Raster talked of implementing his own widgets in E for configuration; after all, there's a perfectly good GTK+ app that could be extended or rewritten to do the same thing! When Raster went on to say he might want a file dialogue or something along those lines, I knew that E was getting a bit too big.

E is now, or will soon be, a desktop environment unto itself. It's running up in the 60k lines of code area, with 0.15 at least, which if it's done well isn't a problem. Regardless of this, small machines will have a lot of trouble running E if it continues to expand. The only hope of keeping it as a window manager is that Mandrake is able to make modules of one form or another work, so that if I want to use the GTK+ app instead of the built-in E widget configuration dialogues, I can, and if I don't want the up-and-coming desktop environment bits of it, I can leave them and use GNOME and gmc instead.

There's nothing inherently wrong in making E a desktop environment on its own. But, with it being GNOME's default window manager, the GNOME developers now have a choice: Use the old versions of E, which aren't duplicating code and effort, use the new versions and hope that the user doesn't get confused with the two file selectors and various other things, develop their own window manager, or make sure that E follows its true roots: complete configurability, modularity, and choice.

Redhat showing it's growing pains? (2)

Masem (1171) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854049)

I don't think Redhat's *bad* per se, but I think
articles that have appeared over the last few
days here and elsewhere, both positive and
and negative, seem to point that RedHat is
pushing the limits of what it can do under it's
current model, and must make major changes to
the way it does things if they wish to continue,
either as a packager of a quality distribution,
or as a supplier of Linux to businesses. (IMO,
with the convoluted process of Linux install,
you can't provide both in the same package).

In this case, RH is definitely heading down the
road of business attraction (IPO, anyone) and
moving away from general Linux support, even
though they are continuing to push their RHAD
stuff. This is making the distribution less
interesting to those that prefer to hack
someone on the system or do more non-standard

Mind you, RH aiming to provide a strong linux
distrubtion to businesses is a *GOOD* thing
to break the NT juggernaut, but they need to
decide to truly go down this road, rather than
trying to supply a tool that inadequetely does
both the business and the hacker support.
Myself, I'm strongly considering going to
debian when I next need to upgrade, only because
it has more of a hackers-to-hackers feel to

Re:Let's just carry on (1)

Erik Hollensbe (808) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854050)

Given the type of crowd that festers around Raster's proclaimations of disgruntledness, I think it's best for all of us to just carry on and ignore them. I think it's clear to most of us that these people a have nothing to offer us, and that nothing we say can make them stop whining.

I love this... "Type" of crowd.

Yet the same person who does this is probably whining and bitching when someone typecasts the linux community as a whole.

I've talked to the crowd that hangs out in #e, which I what I imagine you refer to. If "type" means anything that is applicable to these people, I would say that they are linux users, as there's not much more you can add to typecast such a large group.

Granted, I agree with a lot of people and think that he's whining, as this kind of shit happens whenever you leave any job. You find out who were your friends while you were working there, and those other people that were pretending to be your friends.

As for RedHat, I think that raster is making a good point, if not directly. His point is that within a good portion of the linux community, he is an icon. In a lot of ways, he embodies the more rebellious strain of hacker culture.

I think in a lot of ways, RedHat used raster more as a celebrity than a programmer, to attract attention to RHAD labs and GNOME. Once the attraction was not needed anymore, they found a way to get him to remove himself.

After all, if raster was fired from redhat, wouldn't we have a shitload of messages here about how everyone thinks redhat doesn't support programmers and free software? :)

I'm not saying RedHat is evil, I'm just saying that they are trying to seperate themselves from the culture. They want to make money, not friends anymore, as they have enough friends. You know, friends like Intel, HP... You get the idea.


Re:Rasterman Should deliver (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854051)

beta? alpha? I'd rather have a window manager (not just E, ANY wm will do) that doesn't crash than something called windows 98 that does. I ran E a week ago. It hasn't crashed. I can't always say the same thing about windows. Version numbers are irrelevant.

Re:Rasterman Should deliver (1)

J. J. Ramsey (658) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854052)

Have you used E? I have. Mind you, I don't think that it's perfect. Its documentation is poor, and I think that it makes some things theme-dependent that should persist across themes, like buttons. I've found E to be fairly stable, though. Raster's idea of 0.15.5 is some people's idea of 1.0.

Re:Moderation (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854053)

Who the hell are you to tell the other people here what kind of stories should/shouldn't be on Slashdot?

The same type of person that can tell you to chill out, that's who.

His *point*, in case you overlooked it in your personal histeria over "oh my god, someone made a suggestion about what we should do", is that this is a story that has already been covered. This is not a new story; the best characterization of this "news" is an expansion.

Is this going to happen on Slashdot for everything? It would be ridiculous. Take the ebay story today. We got the story, knew about it, if we cared, we followed it more closely. We didn't get a point by point update on slashdot every 2 hours. It would have irritated many a reader if such updates occurred. This Raster stuff is bordering such action. Slashdot gave the original story, there was no "major" development, and if you had cared to follow this, you could on your own.

Yes, Rob et al. can post whatever they want. Yes, we can all choose what stories to follow up on. Yes, there are things to emphasize and de-emphasize, and some people are going or not going to like it. And it's the latter point that his complaint proposes a mechanism to deal with (you did notice that in your flame, right?).

About the issue, this is a person who moved on because he didn't like or incorporate into the environment. I don't care what side you take, but I can tell you this is turning and pushing anti-RH sentiment. Slashdot is a media channel just like anything else, and what it posts as opinion, it gives feature and credibility to, simply by the "loudness" aka emphasis of a story, however insignificant.

There are many good intentioned people that do NOT WORK WELL TOGETHER.

And anybody with eyes and two neurons will see that Raster's comments are those of a person who cannot just move on. He pulls private email which he knows he should not be privy to and instead of solving the error, he puts it on the web. [Man, that speaks really poorly of him. You want to buy into "he did it for the greater good" fine, but you just bought into the means justify the ends argument.] Incosiderate and a total lack of etiquette.

He whines almost 3 weeks after his resignation and needs to call on an email less than a week after, and is 2 weeks past in addressing it. He *still* is fed up and is *still* trying to hurt the company.

Open Source is great. I like the idea, I love the code, and I like what it does for my projects and work. But if the community can't grow up or handle it's growing pains aka adolescence, screw it. You can either deal with it and mature, or be like a lot of 20 and older year olds are, whining about their past or what they could have done--aka has beens.

Leaving for a good reason... (1)

Deus Ex Machina (13901) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854054)

Hey, let's be frank here... I think everyone at one point in time or another has left a job for some reason or another. If you haven't, then you are either very lucky or very meek, and enjoy being walked on.
From what I have ascertained, Raster was, in fact, being walked on by someone else. This someone else held a more concrete position in the company than him. Also, given the evidence, I would have to say that this employee was genuinely hostile toward Raster and Enlightenment. It could be a fabrication, but what real reason would Raster have to lie?
I'll be honest here... I'm using RedHat 6.0. I disabled GNOME (with an almost silly amount of effort to do so) and am using Enlightenment DR15 like it was designed by Raster, without GNOME, and it hasn't crashed once. I pieced my computer together myself and I have not crashed with this setup yet without it being something _I_ did (we all do silly things sometimes). What I'm getting at is, Raster left for a very honest and honorable reason - he did not like the environment he was in. I say that he made a mature and wise decision. Granted, I am not impartial on this - I use Enlightenment, after all, and have since DR13. But I still think that Raster made the right decision, if it makes him happy.

Now all I'm worried about is RedHat. I seriously think they may have lost some direction. I don't worry about them dominating the market - we (the Linux community) would squash them if they tried. However, I do think that they are acting somewhat suspicious. I just wish SUSE6.1 had newer libraries *sigh*

Is it a real loss for Red Hat?? (1)

extrasolar (28341) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854055)

The Publicity aside for the moment, what did Red Hat loose? I am not sure about this stuff, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Didn't Raster work on Enlightenment at Red Hat? I mean, it is all free software anyway, only Red Hat isn't paying for it. So Raster will end up doing what he would be doing at Red Hat anyway.

Of course Red Hat could direct what Raster was doing but...

Of course all my arguments are wrong if in fact Raster was hired for doing something else.

But lets say Alan Cox left, same work, no pay.


Here comes the MBA's (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854056)

Alright! Another H1-B visa slot opens up. Sorry, but that might be that attitude of some manager.

I raise this issue because of a trend in the computer industry that was amplified in the 80's. In the initial days (years) of high-tech, the industry was driven forward by vision and influence of people competent in high-tech. Think DEC. Think Fairchild. Think Data General. Eventually, the MBA's take over the upper level of management. I'm not sure that this is the case for Raster, but it is pertinent because the linux community will eventually (has?) seen this.

You might hate Steve Jobs, but would you want to replace him with a guy from Pepsi-FritoLay.

I'm a scientist. My boss is a scientist. His boss is a scientist. His boss is a scientist. (Hmmm, where is the Her Boss?). I would not want a MBA in the chain of command for what I do. Conversely, the computer industry that is fueled by the creativity and efforts of tech ppl is now controlled by MBA's (Except for MS that is controlled by a Harvard dropout that would have been an MBA).

MBA's are okay and are not necessarily evil. However, the bad ones will treat the high-tech workers as commodities to be used, abused, and eventually tossed away. When linux becomes a commodity to be bought and sold, it will be doomed.

Re:Rumors (0)

MikeTurk (18201) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854057)

Yes, but they are much less irritating than the Jehovah's Witnesses. Scientologists don't bother anyone who doesn't actively seek them out. Moreover, they are almost singularly responsible for the revitalization of downtown Clearwater. Remember what it was like 15 years ago?

At least they are honest about taking your money; some sects of a certain other religion can't claim the same.


Who cares? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854058)

E is a window manager for script kiddies (I think the nick "Raster" gives hint to that) and GNOME is a desktop started by the over-inflated egos of GIMP/GTK+ developers who want to rule the world. KDE was a _free_ project started with the best thing available at the time. Did Miguel ask Troll Tech nicely to make "free" their license? I would say: hell no. I say fuck Mr. RaStErMan and fuck GNOME. As for Red Hat.. well they are still the same as always (whether they have always had good intentions or not).

Can slashdot just ignore these stupid ego-pumping novels and get some real news?

Reality bites hard. (1)

gavinhall (33) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854059)

Posted by phat5n00p3r:

Hey Rasterdude:

You've got total empathy from me, when it comes to bad management, and what they do to creative minds. However, that's a part of reality. It's good that you left RH, because their corporate culture, and your personality are a titanic clash. The guy who bore down hard on you has the unfortunate fate of not working with someone as talented as you.

You've got to understand one thing though. The "corporate" managers, who are nothing more than a pack of loud-mouth,annonying sales types, don't comprehend what Linux is all about. And the reality is that they never will. Their goal in life is to get a job, and get by through pretense, and managerial appeasement.

You are above that, and every decision you make, is always in your benefit. Best of luck in your endeavors, and thanks for the great work you've done.

registry? (1)

kfort (1132) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854070)

ack, that almost sounds like the windows registry. Whats wrong with splitting stuff up? Also SuSE does not release all their code under the GPL (YAST).

RTP, NC (1)

dav (5309) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854071)

Ok, so maybe I left Research Triangle Park for San Francisco a couple of years ago, but I have to say North Carolina is not that bad. And good lord the housing market is better there. Out of the Triangle, Raligh is the worst but Chapel Hill and Durham (where Red Hat is located) have much charm (although I admit Durham's is a bit more subtle).

And after living in the Bay Area for awhile I can tell you: I'd much rather be in Durham than in Silicon Valley. That place is BO RING. No wonder so much coding gets done, there's *nothing* else to do.


Re:Hipocracy! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854072)

I don't know, but I know someone who was almost in the exact same situation..

They were a cars sales person, but the dealer ship was doing something corrupt to customers, so he told the truth about what was going on, and for this he lost his job and couldn't get jobs similar, after all who wants an honest sales person, a sales person with ethics, a sales person who would tell someone if you do something corrupt?

We live in a sad country when you learn that things like this happen....

I know another person who worked at a small catalog company, they would force their employees to lie to the customer that the packages would be their with in a certain amount of time only because the postal company would lie about its third class mail, even though the boss knew it would not, and all the time their would be angery customers calling in wanting to know why their packages are not their yet. To work in a company such as that is hell, on the phone with angry customers is never a good thing, so that person quit, but if you quit a job then you have less benefits...

you want pain? (1)

kfort (1132) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854073)

use slackware. Try out debian, its nice

Re:Hero Worship (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854074)

Well get over it...

You can't tell a person to be nice to you, and if you go over their head and complain, its considered unprofessional, why because the managers them selves are nothing but wussies, do they like it when the nature of the problem is conflict between people? Of course not because then its harder to solve, and both Rasterman, and the other guy, would have said diffrent stories, likely the other guy would have covered his ass, and would have further resentment for Rasterman. The problem wasn't Rasterman, it was the other guy. The job of a manager is to also help the emotional side of the workers, or else you better look for more workers.

Re:Hero Worship (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854075)

The part you should have been interested in is that other guys comments about the users.... that alone is screwy..

Re:luser Worship (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854076)

The part you should have been interested in is that other guys comments about the users.... that alone is screwy..

If you want, people like that running business laughing taking your money and callling you a loser, that is your choice...

Re:This is getting old (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854077)

"Given the type of crowd that festers around Raster, I think it in our
best interest to just go on with business as usual. It has been clear for
awhile that he and his posse were not GNOME supporters, and nothing we"

even when they say things like this.

Re:luser Worship (1)

Trepidity (597) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854078)

If you want, people like that running business laughing taking your money and callling you a loser, that is your choice...

What makes you think the CEOs of Exxon, AT&T, Intel, or IBM are any more caring about their customers? No business (except for a REALLY small one) cares about anything except its bottom line. If being nice to customers gets you more money, fine. Otherwise, forget it.

Re:Conflicted... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854079)

Maybe he was afraid that, that (new) manager would say something publicly bad about him first, in an attempt to keep RedHats public image and to destroy Rastermans. After all he did do it pretty quick, and this second one seemed more mild to me.

Re:Like JWZ: more than you know (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854089)

Childish? That is your opinion, I disagree.... Being a robot does not make you any more an adult.

you do... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854090)

aparently you do, as actions speak louder then words, by saying anything at all shows you do care.... if you do not care then why say anything at all?

if it is an ego your jeolous..... and must use your ego to but heads...

Re:E is actually tiny! (1)

Arandir (19206) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854091)

Mandrake spoke at the last SVLUG meeting about E. He described how the modules worked to keep the core small. Don't like the module? Pop in another. In fact, if you eliminate the wallpaper, pick a theme without pixmaps, and keep those rgb icons out of there, Enlightenment is actually one of the smallest window managers around. I forget what he said the footprint was, but it was smaller than WindowMakers.

But half the fun of E is all those pixmaps, effects and modules!

Re:Signs of tension. (2)

IntlHarvester (11985) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854092)

As I write this, the rules are changing. The world isn't just about PC's anymore. A PC is nothing if it can't connect with something. (we all know that, right?)

Right! However, Linux currently has a substandard web browser and fragmented Java support. That makes it a non-contender to Windows on the desktop even if you factor the Office Suite out.

(A top shelf web browser + JVM + 3270/5250 emulator + sexy mail client like Eudora or MSOE could replace *millions* of Windows desktops, even without the office suite. And, no, pine/lynx is no an acceptable general solution - the radiation from your VT420 has driven you insane.)

quit bitching (1)

tweek (18111) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854093)

The title may be a little blunt but it says what I'm going to say. First of all I know exactly where Raster is coming from having left a job under similar conditions. I personally feel that his idea of posting the story out was tacky and a chance to get back at this manager who he disliked so much. I agree with his reasons for not liking the guy and he truly may have wanted to strike back without hurting redhat (as he has claimed) but this can only hurt RedHat as a company. Everyone keeps posting about how we should be interested because this displays RH's feelings towards its userbase. This is not entirely true. Notice that he said it was this one person. I hope that Bob Young will have a nice sitdown with said employee and give him a reality check. I have a feeling Bob doesn't quite agree with this fellows attitude. At least I hope so. As for raster, this can't be a good job move because I know how i look at employee's who do this and how MY boss viewed it when I told him my story. All he needs to do is list RH on his resume. He doesnt have to use them for a reference. Besides that, there are probably a few other people there he could list other than the manager who, quite frankly seems not to care. As a side note, I read the articles and what not regarding this and I don't think it merits even discussing because it should be a personal issue. Raster is unintentionally (or intentionally) blackballing RH and it kind of makes him sound like a child for the whole issue. It probably would have been better dealt with on the e-user listserv. None the less, this is the joy of slashdot and life in general. Free Speach. =)

Re:RTP, NC (2)

IntlHarvester (11985) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854094)

That place is BO RING.

That's why those freaks are driving the rent up in San Francisco (where the 101 commute is now worse outbound than inbound.)

Re:quit bitching (1)

tweek (18111) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854095)

Oh and I just got back from RTP on a 4 week business trip. The area is pretty nice and it's doing it's best to cope with the sudden growth but I40 traffic STILL stinks ;)

Re:Some thoughts (1)

Schubert (5172) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854096)

I'm a regular and a well known patron of #e, as I cannot speak for the channel, I'd say that opinions vary, some people are pro-gnome some are pro-kde, some are impartial, I am. While I use kde over gnome for various reasons of speed and stability, the arguement is illrelevent. We at #e could not be classified as pro or anti GNOME, its opinion based.

one file, one dir... whats the difference? (1)

zzg (14390) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854097)

Whats really the difference between having one file with many subsections and many subsections with one file. Im sure it would be possible to have the whole /etc contained in one database and have a /proc like interface, but I dont se the point.

The cracks in the community (1)

Arandir (19206) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854098)

The reason we are starting to see cracks in the community is because it is finally starting to become a community. And real communities have cracks. This is a Good Thing.

Before, Linux users were a club. They were predominantly hackers with similar goals and philosophies.

But new users arrived from all cultures. They have different goals and different philosophies. The don't all think that Richard is the high priest or that Linus is the master pragmatician. Most will never learn the intricacies of vi or emacs. This is the way real communities are.

We don't get to choose our neighbors. Our candidate for mayor rarely gets elected. We go to different churches. Someone always complains about the potholes, and someone else complains about the cost to clean them up.

If my community were perfect, I'd move to someplace where there were cracks!

This is ironic... (1)

CryptdotX (30285) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854099)

This is terribly ironic, considering that article a few weeks back about RedHat trying to hire the "Superstars of Linux programming". Well, Raster may not be the Michael Jordan of Linux, but I think he could be the Kurt Cobain of Linux.

Kurt Cobain, if you recall, is the late lead singer/songwriter/guitarist of the revolutionary early 90's band Nirvana. He pushed his genre of music into new directions. He wasn't Mozart, but he wasn't bad either.

Raster is somewhat similar to this. He takes his genre, the window manager, and pushes it to new extremes. He makes up new rules (e.g., Imlib) along the way. He's not doing anything radically new, but what he does is still cool.

Finally, if you want to impress a Windows user, you don't show them TWM, you show them Enlightenment.


Re:Moderation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854100)

"Since he posted it for public consumption, I'd say he's offering that right to anyone who might come across his pages. "

You are free to have an as lame opinion as you want... and I am free to say your opinion is lame... :)

"I'd have to agree with those who see this as unprofessional. Or is it fashionable for disgruntled developers these days to put up bitch pages about their former employers? "

Your looking at it the wrong way, some might ask if you are looking at all..... He did not do it because of fashion.... he actually has a user base, he actually has people who use his software.... if something is going on then he is almost obligated to let people know.... When he saw that email, it made him mad (he is human after all), to be professional or to be an adult is not necesarily to be an emotionless robot, if you expect people to not say something when you stick a knife in their back then you are asking for something that can't feel the knife, which is not human..... So he more then likely was pissed off and posted information to his users... what better then slash dot... Nerds are not robots after all, and I for one was interested even though you may be only thinking of your self, and what you like....

"So he had a bad manager ... so do a lot of other people. He left - which was good. He put up a bitch page - which, frankly, is tacky."

tacky? Yeah I suppose it is tacky for an jail mate to scream as he is being raped by big bubba.

Re:Conflicted... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854101)

Perhaps it's one of the dangers of instant communication, this ability to instantly blow off steam without anything forcing you to cool down and rethink. Or maybe the infamous programmer temperment combined with this "cult of personality" surrounding the Linux celebrities is pumping egos out of control.

Maybe what's driving the whole free software movement isn't a noble belief in freedom for users, but is instead the chance to have your sense of self-worth blown completely out of porportion with reality.

Oh, I love this :) A pity that such true comments will be shredded by blind worshippers...


Re:Companies ARE created with altruistic ideology (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854102)

I've been there when companies start. Usually it's an engineer with a good idea, a greedy venture capitalist, and an evil business man.

The engineer wants to get rich too you know. The other two are evil, but unfortunately necessary, leeches.

I like making things, but I do that in my spare time. When I'm at work, I'm at *work* doing work to make stuff to make more people money, so that I make money, so that I no longer have to work. My goal: retirement at 35, then I'll be able to do whatever I want to do and dispense with all the stuff I hate.

Keep in mind Linux was a pet project of a student doing something more or less for fun. As soon as you mix that with business you are suddenly working 8:00 am to 1:00 am to get the product out and on time. It's one thing when you still enjoy doing it, it's another when you have your life savings on the line and 10 employees dependant on what you produce. That's why businesses make money, not joy and happiness.

Re:It's a company, it's purpose it to make money. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854103)

What do you consider AT&T, Microsoft, IBM, RCA, Motorola, AMD, Intel, GE, ...

The mafia beats random violence, and you're in a MJ haze if you don't realize that's who you work for.

Re:This is ironic... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854104)

... and after Cobain's music starting becoming more and more self-referential, cliched, and hackneyed... he killed himself.

Re:Rumors (1)

Trojan (37530) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854105)

They are honest? So why do they sue you in 50 states on the same day when you just put up a webpage telling about their practices?

And they DO actively seek you out. They grab peopl e from the streets and make them do tests that invariably show that expensive courses are required. Once you have entered such a course it's not easy to get out.

Damn... is Bob Young really one of those?

Re:RTP, NC (1)

LinuxGeek (6139) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854106)

I agree that the RTP area is nice. It may not be much like the area of Australia that Raster grew up in though. That is the measuring stick he is probably using and I can't really relate. But, taking into account his move to an umfamiliar country and toss in an ( from his view) agitating boss and I would probably freak or get pissed or both.

Sorry to see Raster go, but hopefully things will be better for him in a different environment.

Re:Moderation (1)

Vrongar (33454) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854107)

"Or is it fashionable for disgruntled developers these days to put up bitch pages about their former employers?"

They're called references.

score:3!, whats wrong here? (1)

rullskidor (27874) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854108)

How can this post get a 3?, This is just personal oppinions and no facts. Why wouldn't a person who generates great but experimental code fit with people who can fix it up?. Why say he is being childish then one of the managers was an asshole, I whold get very angry to hear bad remarks of me and my code and the users of my programs for 1.5 years so whats so wrong with that?

If everyone just wrote code and made it work at least GNOME would evolve faster...

RedHat has bastardized E (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854119)

RedHat just turned E into some comercial-looking
GUI (even resembles Windows). They should have used KDE to reflect the degree of gayness in RedHat Linux. Maybe I'm a little subjective about
this but I'm glad Raster resigned. Ohh yes and I do have 1000+ reasons not to like RedHat. Phew!

Re:Moderation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854120)

Yeah, I agree, we should lock up all free software developers in a room, force them to create programs. Publicity for their work? ha that would be a joke in our country of programmer slaves, eh buddy...

Re:My apologies for the previous post... (1)

Arandir (19206) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854121)

As a KDE supporter, let me be the first to offer my apologies for the rude behavior of another KDE user (abuser?).

The vast majority of KDE users respect GNOME. Many use KDE on top of E. A lot use both KDE and GNOME together. Please do not get the impression that this is the typical behavior of KDE types.

Raster parting Gnome? (1)

bootp (2395) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854122)

I'm not really up to date on what Raster's feelings are regarding Gnome. I do know that they work wonderfully together under Redhat and I wonder if Raster's split from RH will hamper the Gnome/Enlightenment relationship. From what I read in his departure recap I felt some vibes like the gnome-enlightenment partnership was one of Redhat's ambitions and not necesarrily one of his own. Does anyone know more about Enlightenment's future plan with Gnome and if they have changed at all with Raster's resignation?

Re:Is it a real loss for Red Hat?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854123)

I thought he did other stuff. He wrote a lot of the gtk themes code and the Gnome WM specs. Try looking at - he touched quite a bit of stuff

Re:luser Worship (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854126)

Exactly we need more rastermans working at those companies to let people know about it....

Re:Redhat showing it's growing pains? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854127)

"How could this [Y2K Bug] be a problem in a country where we have Intel and Microsoft?" -- Al Gore"

Thats ironic since Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates is republican, and supports the GOP...

Re:registry? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854130)

registry(linux) = etc/

Yeah. Exactly who I'd want to hire. (3)

Skyshadow (508) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854137)

I wonder if this will end up hurting Raster's career over the long-term. I mean, what company would want to hire a guy who might quit and publish a bitch page like this (especially one that gets posted to slashdot)?

Look at it from the company's point of view. Foremost, it's bad press right before their IPO. Second, it hurts their recruiting efforts by saying that living in NC sucks...

I dunno, maybe even a vague loyalty isn't something that HR people look for anymore, but it's something I still value in people who work for me.


Why do we care? (1)

gavinhall (33) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854138)

Posted by stodge:

He's just another developer leaving another company. So he has public visibility purely because its RedHat. So what? These things happen every day. Get used to it and get on with your life.

If you hadn't worked out by now, the longer and bitter the slanging match, the uglier it gets. The more you bitch and swap public responses, the lower you go in my esteem. Its a sad cliche, but let your code do the talking.

Re:Moderation (1)

McKing (1017) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854139)

Who the hell are you to tell the other people here what kind of stories should/shouldn't be on Slashdot?

I happen to be interested in this story, since it not only concerns E (which I enjoy using), it also describes the internal attitude change at RedHat. I used to like RedHat, but lately more and more stories keep surfacing about how the tide is changing in North Carolina, and Raster's comments (have you even read them, BTW) are indicative of a company that is on the verge of losing sight of where they came from.

I also happen to be one of the people who stumbled on this sight long before it became Slashdot, and I almost always find the articles here to be interesting. Noticing your print jargon ("column-inches"), I assume that you think this site is supposed to be some sort of news portal. Well it isn't. The articles are on here because someone thought that this was interesting enough to post and Rob and crew agreed. End of story. If you don't like the article, then skip it. If you don't like a lot of the articles, then either submit ones about things you're interested in or go the hell away!

Hot air (2)

Stargazer (4144) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854141)

I know that this summary is nothing new, but I think that makes this an excellent time to summarize what I believe should be read from this.

In our attempts to find a "moral to the story," we can basically try to answer two questions: What does this say about Rasterman? and What does this say about Red Hat? If you don't like my longwindedness, I'll answer both for you right here: nothing.

The only change to Rasterman that arises from this is a different locale and different employer. That's it. He always has cared about his users; he's not leaving because he's been magically enlightened to the needs of them. Same ol' lovable Rasterman.

Likewise, there's nothing new about Red Hat here. They aren't out to hurt Rasterman's users or work, with the exception of one person. I doubt one person should categorize Red Hat's official stance. Especially one which has thus far gone unnamed, and is more than likely not anyone high on the food chain. Rasterman himself even says that most of the folks and RH and RHAD are good people: there's just that one person who has offended him.

So why am I chatting so much about something that I consider a nothing-new event? Simply because I don't want to hear any weirdness emerge from it. Rasterman is not suddenly a saint (unless he already was ;) ); Red Hat is not suddenly a non-believer in the Free way.

Flames burn. Hurt. Don't touch; don't start.

  • Stargazer

Re:My thoughts (1)

McKing (1017) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854143)

Two things:
1. E runs great on a P90 laptop w/ 16 megs RAM
(of course, I can only run 2 or 3 apps no matter what WM I use, its too slow!! But E runs nicely)

2.E is _not_ the default WM for GNOME. It was what redhat put as GNOME's WM for RH-6, and it is one of the few WM's that is GNOME-compliant.

I'm getting tired of the whole GNOME/KDE thing. I really don't use any of the apps from either environment (and I do have both installed). I don't really care about a file manager either, since I have gotten so used to a command line that it is really harder to use the limited capabilities of a file manager.

Loyalty? It's earned, and can be taken away. (2)

Rahga (13479) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854144)

I've never kept working at a place that thinks it can treat me like trash. I deserve more respect than that, and so did Raster.
Loyalty is earned. If that loyalty is betrayed, it deserves to be taken away.
If you get paid to write software, you want a productive environment to work in, to do good work, to deliver your product, and the management should support those who are working for them. The better you treat your workers, espicially with this type of product development, the better work they do. Plain logic. Red Hat's management gave raster trouble, made the environment bad (besides, NC SUCKS! :), and he did not want to work there anymore. Plain and simple. Why should he be RH's slave when others will pay him to work in a supportive environment?
Human beings are incredible assets. Human resources fit under operating expenses.

Re:Moderation (1)

Shane (3950) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854147)

I agree. People need to learn to speak for themselfs without including the rest of the community.

Raster has valid reasons for being upset (if only because he believes so) Who are we to judge what is professional or not professional for HIM to do or say. Stop worrying about how a member of the community reacts to something.. he is but one of many..

p.s. in my OPINION it is raster's manager that has a problem acting professional.

Ouch... (0)

NullPointer (6898) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854148)

I didn't know I was a fester...or festering, why does Gun Smoke come to mind? :)

Perhaps its time for another look at Debian, or I suppose I could always go back to the Slack.

Conflicted... (1)

Some guy named Chris (9720) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854151)

As someone who just gave his notice today at a 21000 person company to join a startup, I can understand wanting to vent, but as the cliche says "discretion is the better part of valor".

You don't know what tomorrow brings, and not only burning bridges, but stomping on the smoulering ashes probably isn't the best tactic when leaving a company.

Perhaps it's one of the dangers of instant communication, this ability to instantly blow off steam without anything forcing you to cool down and rethink. Or maybe the infamous programmer temperment combined with this "cult of personality" surrounding the Linux celebrities is pumping egos out of control.

Maybe what's driving the whole free software movement isn't a noble belief in freedom for users, but is instead the chance to have your sense of self-worth blown completely out of porportion with reality.


Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854156)

How Ironic you are mentioning bitching, that is all you have done in your post, you whiney pussy whore... opening your back door... :)

Re:Ouch... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854157)

the same could be said about Linus Torvald and even Bill Gates

Re:Leaving for a good reason... (1)

ArchAngelQ (35053) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854158)

Hey, let's be frank here... I think everyone at one point in time or another has left a job for some reason or another. If you haven't, then you are either very lucky or very meek, and enjoy being walked on.

Or to young to have run into this yet. Remember, some of us are just getting started in the free software development, and the job market in general, and aren't jaded yet. But we will, of course.

Re:Yeah. Exactly who I'd want to hire. (1) (59328) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854159)

working for someone else is not the only way.

Re:Conflicted... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854160)

Personly from what it sounds like, rasterman was going to leave normally but was ticked off at the last moment of leaving, I think that the "now to be manager" guy is an idiot for emailing that in the first place, I think that is what set this off in the first place....So I think in a way your right there was not enough time for him to cool off from it...

Its lame though for the rest of the people who post on this board to post flames... or to act as if this is unimportant just because it may be harmfull to RH, or because they are afraid that if they do something screwed up in their work that they would hate for someone to publicly complain...

Time for those people to get a life, act professional, act like an adult, or what ever else they may say....

I don't find your statements to be true though, the free software movement is about people who feel strongly about their work, and the people who are supposed to appreciate it and give thanks..... instead what I do notice is there are a lot of ingrates.... its not the programmers or the people who help them or the people who like their work, its the people who are ingrateful, whether they be programmer or user/marketer, they be ingrateful.

Re:Conflicted... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854161)

And loved by blind followers...

quit bitching tweek... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854162)

no one wants another bitcher to bitch about a bitcher do they? I don't.

Re:registry? (1)

fReNeTiK (31070) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854164)

I'm going to play devil's advocate here, be warned:

What's wrong with centralizing all configuration stuff into one file? I've always been a little annoyed about the chaos in /etc/. Would it be so bad to put everything in one place? As long as it's not built in such an obscure way as the win registry, I'd be very happy to manage all settings in one place.

Re:It's a company, it's purpose it to make money. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854167)

I guess the mafia is what you would consider a company then....

Re:Who cares? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854168)

Umm what's wrong with Raster's nick? It seems very appropriate considering his interests, graphics and eyecandy. Oh, maybe I went to far by assuming you actually knew what raster meant.

Is it just me or do the "kiddies" seem to be the ones calling others "kiddies" more than anyone else?

-- I'm too lazy to sign up for a /. username

The Truth! :) (1)

Rahga (13479) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854176)

Welp, the fileselector applet he wants is so people can load backgrounds a lot easier more than anything, it's a long way from becoming an actual desktop shell. However, raster is interested in that. It's hard to say what he wants first. E2.0 was supposed to not only be the window manager, but a window manager and window system. He's changed that plan a little.... but I won't spoil it for ya'll. :)

Re:Moderation (1)

Rick_T (3816) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854177)

| Who are we to judge what is professional
| or not professional for HIM to do or say.

Since he posted it for public consumption, I'd say he's offering that right to anyone who might come across his pages.

I'd have to agree with those who see this as unprofessional. Or is it fashionable for disgruntled developers these days to put up bitch pages about their former employers?

So he had a bad manager ... so do a lot of other people. He left - which was good. He put up a bitch page - which, frankly, is tacky.

As for "moderating the article", well they already do that, as not all submissions get posted. :)

Now we get Raster sitings... (1)

mtngrown (24296) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854178)

Heh heh just like Elvis...

"I saw him on the Angel Island Ferry!!!"

Where _will_ he pop up next...?

Re:Now we get Raster sitings... (1)

geekd (14774) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854179)

Well, if he's in San Diego, I'll buy him beer...

Like JWZ: more than you know (5)

hatless (8275) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854180)

Raster wants to do Stunt Programming, death-defying, convention-breaking, high-bandwidth stuff. Redhat has always been about cleaning up Linux for institutional, mainstream consumption. It wasn't a great fit. It's good that he's moved on, though he's been mighty childish and unprofessional about it.

JWZ is also a Stunt Programmer. On the Mozilla project, he was given marching orders to be a project leader, not a Stunt Programmer. The Mozilla project faltered. He left, frustrated. Since then, the Mozilla project has become much more goal-focused, its frequent milestone releases coming with clear goals. The difference is like night and day, reflected in everything from the crisp, punctual status reports and the daily inventories of showstoppers.

The successor to NS Communicator is still a long way from release, but the new discipline evident across the board on the Mozilla project shows how much dithering there was in the absence of strong project leadership.

This Raster guy and that Zawinski fella have done damn fine stuff, and have plenty of damn fine stuff ahead of them. But both were ill-suited to the jobs they were in, and should stop bellyaching.

INS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854181)

How does US Immigration feel about this? I thought that aliens had to maintain employment to remain in this country legally.

It's a company, it's purpose it to make money. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854182)

I don't know why so many people have this odd belief that companies are created under some sort of altruistic ideology. They aren't. Maybe some small tiny family business still are, but corporations are not. The reason for their existence is to make money, this is why they get venture capital, because the venture capitalists want to make money. That's reality as it is in the working world, ask anybody that's been in the thick of it for more than 2 years.

Every company is like this. Including Ben and Jerry's if you are innocent (or stupid enough) to buy the PR line that they dish out.

If you are interested in building a particular type of product or are interested in building a particular idea, go into research, write gnu software, or contract for what you like to do. But don't expect to be doing as a regular 9-5 job because although you can do this, the job is awfully rare and hard to find.

Hipocracy! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854183)

I have always been confused by 'the work ethic', which has always rang with the tone of a double standard.

When you interview for a job you know your references will be checked; and if someone has something negative to say, you know your prospective employer will be taking notes.

Yet, if you leave a job over conditions or business practices that you could not agree with you don't dare voice it because people will perceive you as unprofessional.

Since when is honesty unprofessional? If you can't handle the truth, why would anyone want to work for _you_?

Let's just carry on (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854184)

Given the type of crowd that festers around Raster's proclaimations of disgruntledness, I think it's best for all of us to just carry on and ignore them. I think it's clear to most of us that these people a have nothing to offer us, and that nothing we say can make them stop whining.

Re:Moderation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1854205)

me thinks raster has a woodie right now reading all the comments... Christ, even geeks are getting the rock-star complex now :(

If it sucks but doesn't break the rules don't read (1)

cynicthe (33709) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854206)

Who are you to decide what's /. material? Moderation is for keeping the me too first post and such shit out. And if you haven't noticed Rob doesn't post everything that hits the submit story link. So chill.

Personally I'd like to know the character of the people I support with my money.

Re:Hero Worship (1)

Malachi (5716) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854207)

I must agree with this. Rasterman fell into a category that I don't even puruse at all. While I go and read his side of the story I hear.. whining it must be. He never said anything? He never spoke up? He never addressed the issue? Geeze.. if you have a problem the only way to get everything perfect is to communicate. I won't even go into assumptions here, but I have a myriad, don't you? Anyhow, theres more important things going on in this community than showing the intolerance of a manager and the wuss nature of an employee.

As for NC, it may not be the most exciting place, but it is beautiful with many facets one can choose to explore. Your life and experiences are shaped by your choices. You reap what you sow.

Keep'n it real as usual,

Re:Loyalty? It's earned, and can be taken away. (1)

McKing (1017) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854208)

Yeah, since when did employees stop being persons hired by the Personnel department, and staplers purchased by the Human Resources department???

I'm damn glad to work for a small company where my ideas are listened to and we all work together. I have vowed to never work for a company where I don't talk to (or even _see_) all of the employees every day.

I am a human being, and whether I am an employee or a customer, a company _owes_ me as much respect and loyalty as they expect in return. If they offer no respect, then I deliver none, and will give my patronage as a customer or my talents as an employee elsewhere.

College economics parrotry... (1)

cynicthe (33709) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854209)

It's like that cuz we buy products from people who form a group call it a body and forget to give it a heart or a head. The upshot is in the end it's not under their control anymore. Stock holders and venture capitalists are holding a gun to their heads.

Wait, so then capitalism IS decentralized... and they said open source wouldn't work.

Re:This is getting old (1)

Malachi (5716) | more than 15 years ago | (#1854210)

I just looked down at one of those little books, "Lifes little instruction book" and the page I flipped to was,
"Never criticize the person who signs your paycheck. If you are unhappy with your job resign."

While I might have some constructive issues that could help a company. If I were to leave say my current job, which like everything in the world, has its own disfucntionalities, it is absolutly disrespectful for me to make myself go public. I almost want to say that one is liable for expressing too openly their opinions of a said company.

Like I said in a previous reply, if you have a problem, and have tried explaining it or fighting for your view, then leave and find a home where you can be happy, but dammit, shuttup already. I care more about the UN settlement than this garbage.


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