What's the Point of IT Certifications? 1100
erica_ann asks: "Fact: You can have the knowledge without having to pay to be Certified when it
comes to computers. Another fact: Just because you have the certification does not mean you actually
know the material as well as someone who is not certified. You might just be good at taking tests.
So what is the point of getting IT Certifications? To have a piece of paper?"
"I have had this conversation with many friends and co workers. One thing I like
out of all the conversations is getting more than just one point of view. I know
my standpoint on it. I
rambled on it for quite a while. But, what I would like to ask of everyone on Slashdot, is what is your opinion? Do you have certifications? Was it worth getting certified? How do employers, employees and management feel about them? Do you pay for them? Does the company pay for them? Is it worth being certified if you do not get a pay raise for it? What certifications bring more
than others? Are specialized more employable than general certifications?
I think many people would benefit from hearing more than one side of the controversy. Maybe it will encourage more employers to reward for certifications. Maybe it will help the next person attain the career he or she wants. Is there such thing as being TOO certified for a job?
Or is the whole idea of getting alphabet soup behind your name just certifiably insane?"
What would the little kid say? (Score:5, Funny)
What truth?
There is no point.
--
You didn't know. [tinyurl.com]
Re:What would the little kid say? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:What would the little kid say? (Score:4, Insightful)
Barrier removed.
--JEDIDIAH OCP,SCSA
Re:What would the little kid say? (Score:4, Insightful)
few vendor supplied multiple guess exams.
There's the problem in a nutshell - the certification is a way for competing authorities to milk money out of people, and worse, if the model takes off amongst employers, then it will become a compulsory way to milk money out of people because independent learning will not be recognized.
The Open Source community should start a project to establish a set of knowledge that must be demonstrated in order to acquire certain levels and areas of certification. There's no better way to make sure that the knowledge is up to date and comprehensive.
That way, the accrediting bodies are little more than employed examiners who confirm that the applicant does indeed possess the knowledge on the checklist. This pulls the rug out from under any "educational" bodies that want to establish their own de facto certification scheme that they have a monopoly on.
I'd be happy to help with organizing / co-ordinating such an effort, though I lack the skills to deal with the knowledge itself in most areas.
Maybe we should look at beginning something like this. There is enough documentation out there for all this - it just has to be turned into a exam-style and gradeable format
Re:What would the little kid say? (Score:5, Informative)
What I'm worried about with the current scheme is that I'll spend $7k+/semester on tuition and get my nice BS in computer science and then have to fork out another few k in redundant certifications. There are guys ive worked with that have had to do just that.
I'm all for a HAM Radio Exam style setup with some sort of self-moderated body with partial governmental/other oversight.
Re:What would the little kid say? (Score:4, Interesting)
Fundamental difference - The current certification is (a) proprietary and (b) varying from organization to organization. What this means is that the certification industry goes into lock-down with a few (or one) major vendors being sole suppliers of that certification that says your worth employing. This has all the potential for price-hiking and standards distortion you would expect.
A community maintained certification would mean a much lower barrier of entry to independent groups keeping prices sane, better maintained standards of excellence, possibly even making certification mean something,
Because assessment would no longer be tied to the course (which it currently is because its the same people who want to sell you both), people like myself who already know a Hell of a lot and don't want to have to fork out money for a course I don't want will simply go and get their accreditation for much less.
Winners all round, especially the employers.
Re:What would the little kid say? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What would the little kid say? (Score:5, Interesting)
Even the CCIE is nothing to be impressed by compared to a legal, medical or engineering license.
People that think that even Novell certs are an attempt at Guildsmenship need to get out of their cubicles and venture forth into the outside world a bit.
Re:What would the little kid say? (Score:5, Interesting)
Bwah ha ha... what a laugh. As someone that is an admin, and interviews people for positions now and then, I can tell you that I (and everyone else in our group that interviews as well) see(s) certs as useless. Far too many people have gone to those quickie schools like MicroSkills and just learned how to pass a cert test without actually understanding the underlying technology.
In fact, if someone really stresses their certs in the resume and/or while talking.. that tends to be a big negative. You can talk to your knowledge, telling me you have a cert isn't the answer to the question, and yes.. people have done that.
It's actually almost scary how hard it is to find really good admins now. Putting up a job opening will result in tons of responses, but 99% of them seem to be people who think that since they were able to install Fedora at home, they're qualified to be a sysadmin.
Re:What would the little kid say? (Score:3, Insightful)
You have it perfectly backwards. Certifications are a lot easier to get than degrees. This creates less of a barrier and allows more people into the field much more quickly. It serves to reduce wages. I think the quality of the exams seems to also display this point.
The truth? (Score:5, Funny)
What truth?
There are FOUR lights
The point of Certification (Score:3, Insightful)
Certification is supposed to validate technical expertise. The system is obviously fawlty. Right n
Re:The point of Certification (Score:3, Informative)
However, the "Freak Squad" simply is correct. Simply restoring the standard installation from the disk image on the central server is the only way to go.
1. Most spyware opens back doors. Even if you uninstall the spyware, there can always be other malware on the machine already.
2. H
Re:What would the little kid say? (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyway, that's pretty much how they do it anyway, except you'll find that there are many levels of certification, so you can get 4 or 5 different
The whole idea of certifications is flawed, because the testing companies have a stake in putting as many people through their classes as possible. Theoretically they get paid the same if someone bombs the test, but that person goes back and tells all his friends that he just dropped 3000 on a whole lotta nothing, and they all cancel their classes with that company.
I had a guy ask me once if I was A+ certified, and I replied, "No, but I've taught A+ certification classes." It blew his mind. How could I ever have learned enough to teach such a mind-stretching class without actually getting certified? Whereas I was still reeling from the fact that someone would ask that question to an applicant for a mid-level solaris administration job.
The bottom line is, HR loves because it gives them an easy metric to measure candidates. And the testing companies love it because its a big business. And IT professionals buy into it because its a hell of a lot easier than trying to convey a complex skillset to someone who doesn't understand, doesn't want to understand, and couldn't really give a damn on top of it all.
Open Sourced certifications? (Score:3, Insightful)
Perhaps we should start thinking on OPEN SOURCED CERTIFICATIONS (This is, certifications which are copylefted, open to the public, etc.)
Obviously certification companies are becoming a bad monopoly, just like Microsoft. I think it's time we start doing something about it, don't you think?
Re:Open Sourced certifications? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Open Sourced certifications? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Open Sourced certifications? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Open Sourced certifications? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Open Sourced certifications? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:What would the little kid say? (Score:5, Interesting)
My previous employer pushed for certifications. I observed that the worst project managers were PMP certified, the least infrastructure savvy admins were MS certified...
If I am hiring a person, I want to know their ability to solve problems. I would not trust an HR department to ask the right sort of questions to determine that.
In one interview I conducted a person explain at length the previous 3 projects they had led that never made it to production. He was very proud of the 18 months and thousands of pages of training materials that the customer never deployed. I understand that sometimes projects go south, but this guy started his career on the Titanic and more recently move from sea to air in the Hindenburg ....
Re:What would the little kid say? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not nearly as dissociated as the OP suggested. You can't pass an XML web services exam unless you know something about XML web services. A passing score doesn't guarantee expertise, but it does indicate a minimum level of competence.
Generally: Certifications are hoops. They have the same purpose as any other career hoop: jumping through them demonstrates that you're more motivated than your competitors who don't jump through them. As a job candidate, you can consider it a safety measure: you might get rejected for not having it, but you probably won't get rejected for having it.
IT has become too broad to be evaluated in a single test.
It's rarely a single test. Exams are pretty specific to a particular topic: web services, domain administration, configuring BizTalk server, etc. Even the A+ cert, which is pretty superficial, has one part for "hardware" and one for "software."
- David Stein
Interviews (Score:3, Insightful)
That's all, really.
-Peter
DUH! (Score:5, Informative)
The only way to pass them is to point shiny Certifications into their beedy little eyes!
Re:DUH! (Score:5, Funny)
I've worked in places where I didn't get to vet the resumes or write the classified ad. The most HR would let me do was reject the subset of resumes they deemed worthy and ask them to set up interviews with those that remained. It's quite interesting when they post ads asking for experts in 'Windows 97' or 'Novel Netwear'.
solution (Score:3, Insightful)
Interview them, and if they pass, re-write their application and resume so that HR will hire.
Its more work than you should have to do, but it gets the results you want.
Sam
Re:solution (Score:3, Funny)
Re:DUH! (Score:3, Interesting)
Laugh, but it's true. Having the MCP or MCSA gets you past the first round of minions who are just throwing out resumes that don't have X, Y, and Z (for example, the HR guy will trash the resume if you don't have "A Microsoft Cert", "2 years experience", and "A college degree". Once you're past the automotons, you get to the actual tech guys who interview you to feel out your actual skills.
Another reason (and this is the reason I have one) - the company I work for is a "Microsoft Preferred Partner", and i
Re:DUH! (Score:5, Insightful)
Damned if you do, damned if you don't... I wonder if it's permissible to say "Certs: I have passed relevant certification tests, but I prefer to stand on my own qualifications instead, as listed elsewhere in this resume. Contact me if you would like to see my certificates."
Re:DUH! (Score:3, Insightful)
depends on expereince (Score:5, Interesting)
I used to be one of those few IT guys who had a completely unrelated degree (architecture). However I somehow managed to procure enough experience that I really didn't need all the certificates (MSCE A+ etc.) I also know of many others in the same boat. However if your lacking experience then certification is a good way to get people to take a chance on you.
Re:depends on expereince (Score:3, Insightful)
When you hire someone with a certification, they had to go through certain steps to get that. It doesn't make them smart, and it doesn't make them a hard worker, but from the perspective of someone doing the hiring, it makes it more likely that they're smart or hard working. After all,
The Point is Simple (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes - it is possible to do some quick testing in some cases. In other cases, certs are the only tool.
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Re:The Point is Simple (Score:5, Funny)
Well...why would one need to know X [x.org] to be a MSCE?
You don't expect an RHCE [redhat.com] to know Solitaire, either, right?
Re:The Point is Simple (Score:3, Interesting)
I bitch about certifications, not because I do not know what is on them, but because people who get certs without a degree will be considered for the same job as someone without a cert, but with a degree. If I were a hiring manager, the first thing I'd look for is a degree (CS, EE, CE, etc). Then I'd look for certs to refine the search.
It pisses me off that many people who go to school for four years or more, who have paid quite a bit of money, and have been taught intellectual adaptability are passed ov
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:The Point is Simple (Score:3, Insightful)
The point of a college degree is not to demonstrate to anyone that you possess a certain skillset; it simply demonstrates that you have a certain amount of dedication. That's why "true" 4 year degrees from accredited institutions are worth more than condensed "equivalents" from places like University of Phoenix or some correspondence courses. I know plenty of people w
Re:MS *DOES* intend for MSCE to find a job! (Score:3, Informative)
But the sorts of people who tend to go for MCSE also tend to be the "piece of paper entitles me" types. The glut of these types is why MCSE is a joke nowadays. But MS made their money off of the test and the "sanctioned" materials they sell.
Once during an interview I was asked "why don't you have any certs?" I responded that, perha
A Few Thoughts: (Score:5, Interesting)
Fact: You can have the knowledge without having to pay to be Certified when it comes to computers.
This was exactly my situation before I learned (to my chagrin) that most employers simply won't take you seriously unless you throw the alphabet soup at them.
Another fact: Just because you have the certification does not mean you actually know the material as well as someone who is not certified.
Again, something I'm uncomfortably familiar with, having to work with more than one 'paper MCSE' in the past...
So what is the point of getting IT Certifications? To have a piece of paper?
You got it. Unfortunately, that piece of paper is the only way non-technically-minded individuals have to gauge your technical prowes, so they tend to attach unreasonable worth to them.
This isn't a problem...it's an opportunity. "Turn the problem on its head...that's what the Bishop always said..." (apologies to Harry Harrison).
Most people in the IT field are good test takers...if you don't think of yourself as a good test taker, you probbly haven't worked hard enough at it. In a world where you will be judged all too often by your alphabet soup, test taking is a skill you must master. Myself, I've only studied for exams from books, rather than take expensive classes, commonly take about 20 minutes to finish a certification exam, and I haven't failed one yet. Am I that much of a genius? Heck no...I just test well, that's all.
To my mind, the key to testing well (as well as actually coming away with knowledge you can useon the job), is to actually understand the material, rather than simply know the answers by rote. When you can answer the practice questions without looking at the multiple choice answers, and understand why your answer is correct, you're ready.
Just paper (Score:5, Insightful)
College degrees are just paper and don't guarantee any knowledge or skill.
The trouble is that experience on a resume is just paper too, and doesn't guarantee any knowledge of skill either.
If you're hiring, how do you tell the difference between paper knowledge/skill and real knowledge/skill?
Until everyone's completely honest (and probably after too) hiring will always be a lot of guess-and-check.
But, certs help with that (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:A Few Thoughts: (Score:5, Interesting)
I would probably end up understanding my subject really well, but no one else would know that. My degree is going to say that Mellon believes I know enough about ECE to set me lose upon the world with its reputation attached to my name. So a potential employer knows that CMU trusts my skills, and he will too. While I don't know much about IT certification, I'll assume it has a similar idea behind it.
Basically, a college degree is the economic equivalent of a warranty for a car. The university loses something (its reputation) if the produce (me) doesn't perform as expected. Is the reputation of a IT institute worth much? Probably not. That means that the warranty (the degree) is probably worth about the same.
I always thought of IT institutes as a kind of community college for CS students. I would say that if you have no work record, no college degree, and a passion for CS, the IT institutes sound like a good idea. If you have a strong work record or good degree, just look for an employer who knows what to look for.
Just my thoughts.
I saved this from a previous slashdot article. (Score:5, Insightful)
1. You will have a pointy haired boss. This person will be a "manager", and have little technical skill. He/She will not be able to actually evaluate your work at a technical level. He/She will use "industry standard" metrics to evaluate your performance. The fact that you have a $CERTIFICATE makes you a safe bet for them to hire, since they probably can't tell the difference between someone walking in off the street and lying their ass off, and a seasoned 10 year IT vet.
2. You will make roughly "industry standard" wage, since your boss will really have no idea what you may or may not be worth.
3. Your chances of getting promoted to management are close to nil. After all, you can't go promoting the people that do all the work. They're too hard to find!
4. Your shop will get dragged, kicking and screaming into new technologies, since these likely have no certifications, and therefore no way for management to evaluate their worth. Your positive opinion towards new technologies will be considered an attempt to fill your resume in a vain attempt at escape or promotion.
Get certified... Work for the clueless.
CYA (Score:5, Interesting)
At least that's how I hear it from friends. Personally, I'd rather throw out oddball questions that most people won't expect from a manager and see if they actually know how to do what they claim they can -- or can at least think through the process. I'd rather have a competent tech or programmer than a certified one, but if you're not a the top, it can be different. Then it's better to prove you checked credentials and certifications than that the person actually be able to do the job.
No Cert and No CS degree == ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Students with the 4.0GPAs with CS degrees might come out of school and not know jack about shit, while the self-taught guy with a 2.8 in Liberal Arts might code rings around the former. That's a fact.
I am in the process of getting certified and I would relish the opportunity to go back to school and get a CS degree. But the cert is a notch on my resume and a clear win in the short term. Once I'm in the door I know I can do well.
It's all about getting the toe in the door. Get the "piece of paper".
Re:No Cert and No CS degree == ? (Score:3, Interesting)
I am a 21 year old kid, who went to 3 years of college for computer science, and by the time the 3rd year came around, I was sick of it. The moment that made me realize it, was when I was in a 400 level class, about networking, and we were going over subnetting. The professor mentioned "binary". A kid in the class says "how do we count in binary?". Then everyone else started in saying they didn't know either.
This was a 400 level class, designed for th
Re:No Cert and No CS degree == ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Students with the 4.0GPAs with CS degrees might come out of school and not know jack about shit, while the self-taught guy with a 2.8 in Liberal Arts might code rings around the former. That's a fact.
Mights are not usuals. I would also expect a self-taught guy to code in rings, as a good CS program will stress that spaghetti should only be served on a plate.
My experience: Self-taught guys do not have a good grasp of algorithmic efficiency, code documentation, and generally code with poor style. They a
Taking the Java programmer certification test... (Score:3, Insightful)
I've probably forgotten most of that stuff, but I thought it was worthwhile to have studied up on it once.
Most "Certified Techs" (Score:3, Interesting)
Money (Score:3, Insightful)
Next!
Is Money Worthless Paper Too? (Score:3, Informative)
Getting a degree might not mean you know anything, but it can demonstrate that you're dedicated and dependable, which are important qualifications in the work place. A certification is typically a lot easier to get, so they don't hold the same weight, but that makes them a good way of showing potential employers that you're staying current with changing technologies.
Obviously there are other methods of demonstrating your worth to a potential employer, certs are just part of the 'ol resume toolkit.
Well, they don't *all* suck... (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes, it is about the paper (Score:3)
- getting past HR filters
- impressing bosses, or more importantly sometimes, giving your boss ammo to impress others higher up the food chain
- survivability? If the axe is threatening to come down, all other factors being relatively equal, who do you think will get hit: You with all your undocumented knowledge, or your buddy whom the company invested $5k in for an MCSE or whatever?
Yes, it's unfair and it sucks. Yes, we all know people who go drop $5k with Global Knowledge or someone like that, get locked in a room for 5 days in Dallas, and come out with an MCSE and a bunch of crib notes about MMC. It's the way of the business world, and not likely to change anytime soon, even if Redmond were to drop into the Pacific tomorrow. If anything this sort of thing will only get worse, as IT departments continue to become more integrated and ubiquitous into companies.
It's worth it to bite the bullet in this case.
certificates, not the same as degrees (Score:3, Informative)
I know a lot of people think certification falls along the same lines as having a college degree. I disagree. Many if not most certificates are easily obtained. I've attended classes where others in the class barely attended but instead used the "trip" to vacation in the locale. Others clearly got through the week of training on sheer stamina but came away none-the-wiser.
I suppose (as I've seen in some of these posts) I could claim I'd done my due diligence by ensuring my candidates/employees were certified and point my fingers at them, or the certification bodies if they turned out to be duds.
A better way I think is the old fashioned way -- an in depth interview along subject lines germaine to the position being considered. Where I worked we used random questions from a set of questions collectively gathered from our team -- these questions were representative of the technology we used, the situations we encountered, and plans for future work. The only time we ended up with an employee of no use to ourselves was when after our screening process our selection was overridden by a PHB who felt he knew better. He didn't.
A telling point (Score:5, Funny)
My interview was multi-stage, including a technical process. The questions they asked were laughable; "What is TCP/IP" and "What is DNS" and so forth. I pointed out that I was, in fact, an MCSE. They replied "We know - that's why we're asking."
Re:A telling point (Score:5, Informative)
If a network guy (or, in my case, network security guy) can't tell me the difference between TCP and UDP, this will be a very short interview. (Yes, I have had people fail that question.)
People lie on resumes, and really "obvious" questions are a good first-level filter for the liers.
It's what you make of it. (Score:3, Insightful)
Other people can't define how useful a certification will be for you. If you earn one with the expectation of gaining employment based on the certification alone, then you are probably not getting as much from it as you potentially could. Some people learn better having a well-defined objective such as passing a certification exam. And some certifications, like CCIE, are certainly not trivial and require signficant discipline and effort to obtain. Accordingly, they will provide a greater degree of recognition.
If you find certifications personally helpful in skill and career development, then go for it. Just don't walk in to a job interview expecting the piece of paper to talk for you. Point out that you earned it, and in what ways it has or hasn't helped your growth. If you are dealing with competent interviewers, they will recognize and value your focus on real-world skills.
Its simple realy. (Score:3)
ENOENT (Score:3, Insightful)
And, most important at all, you have to get noticed by the company in the first place. The key here is networking: bring yourself and your skills to the attention of people in hiring positions, make friends with them, and you'll be one of the first people they ask for a new job.
It doesn't matter if you have any certificates, it doesn't even matter if you're really good at the work that they need done; if they know you and they like you, you'll get the job no matter how many other people are more qualified.
Most people I know got their carreers started because they either knew the person who was hiring, or they were recommended by a friend. I, myself, usually get offered jobs because of my website. Few of us have any relevant certificates.
Treat it as you would treat a college degree (Score:3, Interesting)
Look at it as a college degree is looked at. It doesn't guarantee knowledge necessarily. What it does is demonstrate some sort of commitment to taking a class and passing an exam, at that takes at least some work, time and money.
A cert does not make you an expert, and the experts have no need of the certifications anyway, so what they really are, are baseline tools. If you pass the RHCE exams, you know the person has a certain set of knowledge at a minimum. It may not be expert level, but you know to some extent what they have proven (in a test at least) what they know.
Also, look at the cert as a tool to the early professional. A training course and a few exams is a good way to quickly spin up into an area of IT you may not be well-versed in. Especially when it's an area dominated by older professionals who are well established. These guys tend to take up all the work and often don't want to delegate any to some know-nothing kid. The result is it's difficult for a new guy to build up his experience.
Over time, the certs do mean less and less as their work experience section grows larger. The cert is not for the guy in the mid/late phase of their careers unless they're trying to shift to a new IT area. Certs are like college degrees... they're of the most value to someone trying to get their foot in the door and build up some basic skills quickly.
Summary (Score:3, Insightful)
2. For the HR folks who are often ill-equipped to evaluate competency levels.
3. For prospective applicants to improve on or dress up their resume. This applies especially to Americans who traditionally have had no opportunity to see abbreviations after their names.
4. For anyone involved in teaching (or selling teach materials) to establish graduation status.
5. For anyone who needs to determine or otherwise establish they know their stuff.
The explosion in the use of certifications is admittedly fair game for fun, but when the tech field reinvents itself every few years, it should be understandable that everyone can be left wondering how well anyone knows anything.
If you've been involved in hiring, or worked in management, you know that references can't always be trusted, and experience is not always a measure of competency. How many secretaries who have been using Word for more than 10 years really know the program? Similarly, I think it's a legitimate question how many regular
Personally, I hate tests of any sort, and even tend to be suspicious of people that do well on them, but I'd be the last to dismiss their purpose or useful, irrespective of the test or who administered it. All the established professions have their legitimacy established using a test, and most have some form of continuing education that requires futher testing and certification. It would therefore seem fair, therefore, for anyone in the tech field be required (as needed) to do the same.
HERE'S WHY - Compliance (Score:3, Insightful)
Aside from the HR tards and the PHBs, compliance is actually something important.
The last two places I've worked for have been pharma companies. If the FDA comes in to inspect, they ask who runs the servers, I say I do. They ask if I am qualified to operate the servers, I show them Solaris cert, questions end.
It's a check the box for the validation paperwork. Required? No. Handy? You bet your ass.
Certs are worthless. (Score:3, Insightful)
As far as my personal opinion, they are mostly worthless. The certs test you on so much minutia that's not worth learning, and in the end you have people who don't know a damn thing more than those without them. I think some of the certs (CISSP and maybe some cisco ones) are worthwhile, but especially with the MS ones, that cert tells you exactly 0 about the knowledge of the person in question. If I had a dime for every question an MCSE has asked me about windows I would be chillin on an island somewhere and not worrying about this bullshit.
You want to know what a meaningful cert would be? Have someone who has never done it before set up an SSH server and client and tunnel windows remote desktop over it. Have someone install and configure a linux box who has never done it. Tell someone to get OpenBSD up and running by using only information available on the web. Have someone write a program to check if a file exists and copy over the file if it doesn't in a scripting language they've never used before given only the web for research. You get people who can learn as they go and certs are irrelevant.
Personally I'd rather have 10 guys who are *real* computer people...not just people in it because it's the new middle management...than 100 paper MCSE's who can tell you some worthless bullshit about printing protocols but can't solve a problem they didn't learn about in class without 10 grand worth of training and a $300 book. Problem solving skills and knowledge of how to find stuff online is ALL you need. I tell people to seach Google groups and they look at me like my head is glowing purple. Do you know how many problems I've solved with that? People have no ability to evaluate sources, cross reference, and learn quickly. 99% of the information you need to do any project is out there, you just have to find it and know how to process it. There are people who "get" computers and those who don't. Certs were invented for all the people who don't. I don't need to memorize this, that, and the other thing about Windows because I'll just learn it when I need to know it. The more critical the project is the more care you take in learning it. Simple.
Fact (Score:3, Interesting)
The point of certification is cheaper labor (Score:5, Insightful)
Certification programs exist largely to commoditize platform-specific labor. They benefit vendors, such as Sun and Microsoft, that sell infrastructure technologies ("platforms") to large corporate clients. These vendors want to assure potential clients that their platforms are supported by legions of inexpensive, largely interchangeable laborers.
The certification programs are the means by which these assurances are made real. They define the minimal skill sets necessary to be considered competent in a particular platform. What makes the programs effective tools for driving down the cost of programming labor is that most certifications are easier for unskilled and offshore laborers to obtain than more traditional means of qualification, such as four-year degrees and on-the-job experience.
Whether certifications are good or bad depends on where you stand. If you don't have technical skills or experience and want to get into a market where certifications are prominent, go for the certification. On the other hand, if you have excellent skills and a track record that sets you apart, avoid markets where certification programs are rife because your abilities probably won't be appreciated. You should realize, however, that much of the work in the industry is going the way of commoditization, and it will be increasingly difficult to find corporate clients willing to pay much more than what the typical certification-holding employee is paid. For this reason, if you have the ability, you might want to start your own business or join a startup.
Getting an interview (Score:3, Insightful)
I was in the situation where I know a lot about computers, but don't have a good way to show that on a resume. I was a college student, who excelled at my computer science courses (but you don't usually put that on your resume - although I suppose you could), and had a few years of lower-level computer support/helpdesk work experience.
My current job listed Linux/Unix experience as a desired skillset. I have been using Linux at home as a geek, and as a computer science student, for about oh, 6 years all together, but had never had a Linux/Unix job. There would otherwise be nothing on my resume to indicate that I actually knew how to use and configure Linux. So, I got the Linux Professional Instituge level 1 Certification. Sure, that doesn't necessarily prove that I'm ready to be a Linux administrator, but it at least shows I was serious enough about learning and using Linux to go out and pass a test about it. (In this particular case, I'm not a Linux administrator, but have a higher-level helpdesk job than I have had in the past, and supporting Linux is a part of this position - and to tell the truth, I know a lot more about Linux than some of the 'administrators' I support pretty frequently).
It got me an interview, and in the interview I had the chance to explain my background and experience with Linux, and demonstrate my proficiency to the department manage, who was satisfied, and hired me.
For people who already have years of experience and a degree under their belt, they can probably skip getting certs. For people just starting out, it's a great way to get your foot in the door.
Database hiring (Score:3, Interesting)
Thank god networking stil works and even sites like LinkedIn [linkedin.com] exist, especially for those of us who have the rare ability of being able to learn practically anything without a need for institutionalized tuition.
Easy weedout (Score:5, Interesting)
I just recently saw a resume with a bunch of certifications on page 1. He had a college degree... listed all the way on page 5. Roundfile. Goodbye.
More certs or a Masters degree? (Score:3, Interesting)
I am not so sure about certs - I never saw the point, but as it sits right now I am wondering if my four year university degree was worth the student loans!
I graduated with a Comp. Sci. BS from a Nebraska university two years ago, and I am barely at where I want to go. At the time: excelled at the classes I took (mainly programming c++, java, cobol, and perl), went out and obtained a side minor of Native American studies, and was planning on going to grad school for AI and complex adaptive agents. Due to financing I opted to not go massively in debt for my masters or PhD, and started to move up in the company I worked for. I worked up to a managerial level in a call center, then hopped the wall to our software testing team. Another guy and myself are the only two in the department of 40ish people that have IT degrees. I took the job in hopes of bouncing to the programming department, but I still had to stop and meekly say "Ouch!" at the prospects. I wonder if it was worth the four years of university to be where I am or could I have just gone and snatched up a bunch of certs and a two year technical degree. Would I be in a different boat or just the same situation two years earlier?
The new dilemma is to peruse a masters degree or get another BS through a technical college in a year or so in "computer information systems technology" (read: programming specific). Would anyone care to comment on the use of a masters' degree over another BS or a barrel full of certs?
It's only a third of what you need... (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure, you need some relevant certifications. You also need a college degree. Hey, and work experience, a couple of years at least. Having all three of those things on your resume is the only way you can reasonably assume it'll have a chance.
None of these are perfect, all are fallible, and there is no magic bullet. Really, the closet thing to a magic bullet here is knowing someone who knows someone who is looking for someone to fill a position. It's networking. A list of IT professionals with whom you have worked in the past that have a good opinion of your skills is priceless when it comes time to look for jobs.
The only way you can shortcut this process is if you can somehow land an interview with the team you'll be working with. This is hard to do at large companies, but often possible at smaller ones.
There are bullshit certifications, degrees, work experiences, references, etc. If your boss can't tell the difference during an interview, frankly, there's no excuse for that and you shouldn't want to work for him in the first place.
Typically it's the face to face with the new boss that sells him. Of course, if he's an idiot, that's another story. If he's an idiot, and you still take the job, well... you made your own bed on that one. Don't get to thinking interviews are one-sided.
Work to live. Don't live to work.
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:5, Informative)
Now, for a high school student, I think that the certification makes sense, because most people will just disregard any teenager as uneducated and inexperienced. The inexperience is, of course, still an issue, but with a certification, a teenager can prove that he's actually got the know-how to do the job, and there's a lot less of a risk in hiring him.
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:3, Informative)
Because I really wanted to with computers and I wanted to help people, I worked for a non-profit organization that recycles and refurbishes computers for the community. I did not get paid much, but I had a place to live and I was happy. A year later, a local company made a presentatio
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's forget for a a minute that that is illegal.
This is a stupid way to think. Having a Cert doesn't make a candidate any worse than having a Cert makes them good.
A Cert, if nothing else, tells you the person WANTS to be in IT.
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:5, Insightful)
Up until I read that one comment, I was thinking 'Hey this guy is right. What's the point of certs?'
And then you made yourself look like a fool in my eyes.
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:3, Informative)
Illegal? I can't tell from your email address if you are outside the US, but it certainly is not illegal in the US.
You can decide to not hire a person for any number of reasons. There are some laws preventing hiring discrimination based on race, gender, national origin, and the like.... but certification is certainly not on that list.
Having said that t
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:3, Informative)
It's long been regarded as good practice, at least among employers I've encountered here in the UK, to have a simple written statement of what the company looks for during a recruitment process, including anything that will be used to automatically disqual
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:3, Insightful)
I'll overlook the fact that you clearly have no idea what is or isn't legal in hiring practices, but certs can certainly be a detriment.
When you look at a resume, what is on the paper is all you know about the person, and I have to screen dozens of resumes for every person who gets face time. I get resume's all the time that have line af
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:3)
When it comes time for a hiring manager to make a decision between the guy with the certs on his re
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, I think I know what this guy means. It's one thing if someone has some small note in this resume listing some certifications, but I've seen people who'll put an insignia right at the top, bigger than anything else: A+ certified, MCSE. In my experience, good techs rarely value their MCSE very much (even if they have it).
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:3, Insightful)
The most obvious thing I can think of is experience. But that begs the question of how one gains experience.
I'm not going to completely disagree with you in general, because I come from the perspective that if I were hiring I would not want anyone without a CS degree (where certifications are pretty much irrelevant). And even then I would thoroughly test them, because bad students can get through.
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:3, Insightful)
Do you have the same attitude for those with college degrees? Are they also "opportunists" wi
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:3, Interesting)
Personally, I'm prejudiced against people with college degrees too... the way I see it, if you're spending years in college, you're not a self-motivated go-getter who can learn independantly, you're just another drone who paid a fortune to be spoonfed and can't be trusted to do anything more than go through the motions like he's been taught.
IT is not the profess
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:3, Insightful)
Finally, as a person in a hiring position, I do not consider them at all, and am definitely prejudiced against someone who puts them on their resume.
See, this is one comment I've never really understood. Yes, there are lots of clueless certification monkeys out there. No, in most cases, certifications say absolutely nothing useful. But prejudice against those who may have gotten them for other reasons?
For instance, I am a MCP. I'm not particularly proud of it, being a Unix person, but work paid for i
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:5, Insightful)
You've never applied for a job that had a bachelors, associates or masters degree in the requirements?
That's what a degree is - a certification.
Certifications are entirely useful if they are configured properly. For example, lets assume that I am out of town with all of my geek friends and my wife's laptop breaks. She needs it fixed immediately. Who do I trust to fix it?
Right now, there really isn't a certification that I trust. I took the A+ and passed it in all of 20 minutes - it is a joke, although you do have to memorize some arcane knowledge (which doesn't prove useful in the real world). The MCDST [microsoft.com] is looking better, in this respect. But even this one doesn't throw a tech into a room full of parts (some of them non-functional) and ask him/her to build a product to specification (or repair an existing one).
When the certs require real-world knowledge, we'll have real-world use for them. In a pinch, however, if I were running a business, the cert is a good way of filtering out those who can't even pass a simple test. This Ask Slashdot should have read:
Dear Slashdot, I can't seem to pass the [insert any cert here] tests, why do we need them anyway?
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:3)
A bit extreme, no? I hope I never run into someone as arrogant as you in the work field,.....
Sucks when people like you thumb their noses at things that are so damn trivial....
The RHCE is different... (Score:5, Interesting)
I can't say I actually learned anything during the course, (maybe had my memory refreshed though!) but I'd consider it at least an indication of a person's ability to configure a system, have some idea of the general system layout and how to troubleshoot common problems.
Re:The RHCE is different... (Score:3, Insightful)
However, I'd think anyone who could pass RHCE would be a competent junior admin.. I don't think I'd want one in charge of a big network based on that certificate alone, but you can be pretty sure they know how to install, configure, and repair a single Linux b
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:5, Insightful)
So, the answer to the original question, then, would be that having a certification helps avoid getting a job under a stupid boss.
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:5, Insightful)
HR does not write the screening requirements for a job posting, I do. And I can guarantee you that I have never put "A Random certificate from a body that has no credibility" as a requirement, so that shoots your to be interviewed pile argument all to hell. Especially since step two of the screening process is discard all resumes with the letters MCSE on them
I call bullshit on you. Certificates are really helpful when you get your employment through headhunters. They love them some certificates. Having said that, I thought I knew it all, or enough of it all anyways, until I got myself into some cert courses. Low and behold, I learned a whole bunch of helpful stuff that I didn't know before the courses. Worth the money? Probably not but the certs I got definitly got me my present job. Nothing wrong with being qualified AND certified.
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:3, Funny)
I don't think I would want to work for a company which makes such sweeping generalizations.
I throw my certifications on a one-liner under my education and training. You know, something like:
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:5, Informative)
I am a highly qualified consultant of 15+ years experience. I live and die by recruiters deciding whether or not to pass my resume on to my actual customers.
Before my certification, I had to go into great length about how my semi-directly related experience matched what the job requirements. Now I can say "oh I'm certified in that specifically and have done similar things in the past".
Admittedly it doesn't speak to whether I'm really qualified, but if it gets me past a semi-clueless recruiter to actually speak with the hiring customer/manager, then it was worth but the time and money to get it.
Just be careful that you don't have too many certifications or list any lame/negative ones and it'll help you find work.
For those already employed, it looks great on a performance review and can help the justification for position or pay rate increases.
Re:Degree Vs DropOut (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Certifications... (Score:4, Interesting)
Since my sister lives several hundred miles away, I'm saved from most "family tech support issues". Her Win98 computer wasn't running so fast a couple of years back, so she decided to add more ram to it to speed things up. Her husband took it to his "MCSE & A+ Certified buddy at work(TM)" to get the job done.
"MCSE & A+ Certified buddy at work(TM)" proceeded to drop a screwdriver onto the mobo when it was powered and fried it. He also had the nerve to charge them for a new motherboard, but at least the ram got installed.
I was visiting a couple of months later when my sister mentioned that she couldn't get any sound when she tried to play a CD. As I was already almost seething when she'd told me about the motherboard, I figured I knew exactly what the deal was. I peered in through the back to, sure enough, see that "MCSE & A+ Certified buddy at work(TM)" hadn't reconnected the CD audio cable and it was just dangling there. I then grabbed a screwdriver to open the case to connect the cable.
Seems "MCSE & A+ Certified buddy at work(TM)" lost the case screws, so "MCSE & A+ Certified buddy at work(TM)" POP-RIVETED THE GOD DAMN CASE SHUT.
Another half hour, a drill, and migraine later, she once again had CD audio working.
So, yes... certs might look good on paper, but they don't mean jack when it comes to knowledge.
Re:the value lies in the HR department (Score:3, Insightful)