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Comparing Tiger and Vista Beta 1

CmdrTaco posted more than 9 years ago | from the little-bit-of-this-a-little-bit-of-that dept.

Windows 678

UltimaGuy writes "This article is an excellent comparison between the features of Apple Tiger and Windows Vista Beta 1. The point it raises - 'Windows Vista Beta 1 is a much-needed demonstration that Microsoft can still churn out valuable Windows releases, after years of doubt. For Mac OS X users, however, Windows Vista Beta 1 engenders a sense of déjà vu."

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Vista is a total rip-off of Tiger... (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13445756)

...except for the Vista games-playing ability.

Re:Vista is a total rip-off of Tiger... (1)

Nimloth (704789) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446000)

You obviously haven't been following... Microsoft decided to disable games in Vista [slashdot.org] as an hommage to OSX.

Re:Vista is a total rip-off of Tiger... (5, Insightful)

Richard_at_work (517087) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446011)

The thing is, until I can install OSX on my current Windows system IN PLACE OF windows, comparisons between Windows and OSX have no meaning precisely because I am required to buy new hardware to use OSX. Vista is a rip off of Tiger? Maybe, but until OSX appears on generic x86 platforms, OSX is not a competitor to Windows despite coming out with the features first.

Re:Vista is a total rip-off of Tiger... (2, Insightful)

Bullfish (858648) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446034)

Vista will also have 1000X+ the number of users one week after launch than apple will accumulate in the time since it was released until vista comes out. Just the reality of the situation. Rip-off or no, vista will dominate.

Re:Vista is a total rip-off of Tiger... (0, Troll)

PhrostyMcByte (589271) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446038)

Some (many?) of the features Vista "rips off" from Tiger were actually announced by Microsoft before Apple. Kinda sad how long it's taken them to get anywhere though. Gives the feeling it took them a few tries and re-writes before they had everything working how they wanted.

The bad thing about beta 1 is that most of the changes are under the hood in the APIs. It's certainly not a good time to compare the user experience.

Attention Apple Fags! (1)

Asshat Canada (804093) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446069)

Whine until your gay voices are hoarse. You will never be anything more than a marketing experiment. Do't forget to snap your thin gay dicks shut in the lids of your overpriced iBooks. Starbucks called...they want their pretentious Apple laptop-using-in-the-store idiot back.

FP (0, Troll)

Kryptkrwlr_XTC (521685) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445757)

FP Yeah

Does no one care? (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13445760)

Argh. first. post.

I'm going to hold off... (5, Funny)

scovetta (632629) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445761)

I'm going to hold off until GoogleOS comes out.

Re:I'm going to hold off... (5, Funny)

taskforce (866056) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445842)

Me too! And I'm not gonna bother getting that new graphics card 'till I know what Duke Nukem Forever will need.

Re:I'm going to hold off... (2, Insightful)

serialdogma (883470) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445881)

GoogleOS is likly writen (if it even exists) as a server OS for Google's clusters, not for a desktop/gaming pc OS.
So a word of advice,. don't hold your breath that it will be able to get you any good frags (or that it would even let you see them for that matter) in CS.

Re:I'm going to hold off... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13445990)

Where's the Macintosh version?!

i hate to take their side (-1, Troll)

tont0r (868535) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445763)

id like to read the article but its already slashdotted (congrats) but is it fair to compare Tiger to a Beta?? 'ha! our completed OS OWNS your beta OS. unf unf in your face'

Re:i hate to take their side (4, Informative)

Yocto Yotta (840665) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445812)

To summarize: It's a feature comparison, not performance.

Re:i hate to take their side (3, Informative)

notdanielp (244035) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445825)

id like to read the article but its already slashdotted (congrats)

The article loaded fine for me (11:10 Eastern), but just in case here is a Coral Cache [nyud.net] mirror link.

Re:i hate to take their side (2, Insightful)

dAzED1 (33635) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445830)

...an excellent comparison between the features of Apple Tiger and Windows Vista Beta 1...

Yes, I think it's perfectly fair to make a comparison of features, since if Vista is truly Beta, then new features shouldn't be added.

Explain why you disagree?

Re:i hate to take their side (1)

Dominatus (796241) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445855)

Because it's a known fact that Beta 2 is when a vast amount of features will be put out for Windows Vista. Thats why.

Re:i hate to take their side (1)

dAzED1 (33635) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445883)

then just what is it that we're beta-testing in beta1, if not the actual product? If new features are going to be added, shouldn't this instead be alpha-stage? And can you provide evidence that this "known fact" is true, or is it just a random retort pulled from no-where?

Re:i hate to take their side (1)

BewireNomali (618969) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446050)

I think it's in the article. Mention is made about the next stage of beta being the stage at which new features are added in.

Re:i hate to take their side (1)

b100dian (771163) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445879)

Yes, it's a feature comparison, as sibling said.
That is, the beta is advantaged:)

The comparison is between things some people already enjoy and things some others might enjoy in the future.

If they ever finish the beta.

Re:i hate to take their side (0, Troll)

avalys (221114) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445899)

Yeah, but this is a pro-Microsoft site doing the comparison, so I'm sure they'll figure out a way to balance it out.

Re:i hate to take their side (1)

George Beech (870844) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445949)

He did find a way to equalize it.
From TFA: I think it's important to compare Windows Vista Beta 1 to both Mac OS X Tiger and the promises that Microsoft made at the Professional Developers Conference (PDC) 2003

Re:i hate to take their side (5, Insightful)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445933)

is it fair to compare Tiger to a Beta?? 'ha! our completed OS OWNS your beta OS. unf unf in your face'

Well, I'd say it is not really fair. What needs to be said is "our current OS is still better even then your new OS that won't even be out for another year or two. " By the time Vista is released Apple's current offering will probably be another few years ahead of it and While Windows users are drooling over the "new" features, OS X users will be running a system comparable to what MS will release a few years after that.

After reading about Vista, and then about what features are actually going to be into it I was pretty annoyed to discover most of the core features are either weak copies of OS X features or ways to lock-in the user even more. They are adding in DRM galore, trying to kill openGL and move everyone to their proprietary DirectX, trying to kill PDF and move everyone to their proprietary alternative, etc., etc. Too bad most purchasers are so uninformed. I wonder if they will be able to buy the EU to avoid getting beaten for all this continued monopoly abuse and move to closed, proprietary formats that contradict EU purchasing policies and further illegally extend MS's monopoly.

The point is, (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13446027)

that Tiger already has all the neat functions. And Vista is still only a beta.

Posted on OSNEWS.com yesterday (0, Offtopic)

redwoodtree (136298) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445765)

Not only will you get the news a day earlier on http://www.osnews.com/ [osnews.com] but you'll also get a lot more interesting stuff that doesn't make it to /.

Re:Posted on OSNEWS.com yesterday (0, Flamebait)

Drew Curtis (904851) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445856)

OSNEWS is just a bunch of pedophiles making comments less informed than those on Slashdot. Not only that, OSNEWS deletes "offensive" posts with some regularity, which Slashdot doesn't.

Re:Posted on OSNEWS.com yesterday (1)

eatmywake (858118) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445892)

Old news for nerds. Stuff that used to matter. A long time ago.

Re:Posted on OSNEWS.com yesterday (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13446005)

Slashdot - It ISNT what IT is (especially with Microsoft related stuff)

BTW, how is the parent offtopic...? Time to stop reading crappy Slashdot..

Hello Digg.com

In bed with Microsoft (3, Informative)

d'oh89 (859382) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445777)

Well I admit it's a fairly well balanced article, it is glaringly pro-microsoft. I wonder if some company in Washington paid the author to write positive fews of the up and coming software.

Re:In bed with Microsoft (3, Informative)

Rosyna (80334) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445807)

The author is a "known" MS Shill. He'll often post "Screenshots" that are either complete mockups of features or given to him by MS employees to post and passes them off as his own experience.

How can you review mockups that don't actually exist?

But he gets paid because even though his articles are usually horribly inaccurate, they bring in a *lot* of readers. After all, this one was /.'ed.Sigh.

Re:In bed with Microsoft (1)

rwven (663186) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445853)

I'm not saying you're wrong, about this, but if you have some evidence i'd sure like to see it... Otherwise this just looks like an anti-windows rant... (not that that's a bad thing to everyone...)

Re:In bed with Microsoft (1)

jeffasselin (566598) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445914)

Look around for the author and read other stuff by him, Paul Thurrott is a well-known MS shill.

Re:In bed with Microsoft (1)

Haeleth (414428) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446062)

Look around for the author and read other stuff by him, Paul Thurrott is a well-known MS shill.

Sorry, no. I'm not going to go out and dig around looking for evidence to support someone else's argument. The burden of proof is with the accuser.

If he's a well-known shill - which he may be, for all I know, though this particular article looks pretty balanced to me - then you must have plenty of evidence at your fingertips. Perhaps you'd care to share some of it, instead of making us play guessing games?

WinPropagandaSuperSite (1)

DragonHawk (21256) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446074)

Rosyna: "The author is a 'known' MS Shill."

rwven: "I'm not saying you're wrong, about this, but if you have some evidence i'd sure like to see it..."

I don't know if Paul Thurrott is a paid shill, but he's definitely the ultimate Microsoft fanatic. Read his past stuff. He's always raving about how new and radical and excellent and wonderful Microsoft's stuff is, even if it hasn't been released yet, was horribly buggy, came three years after everyone else did the same thing, etc., etc. Basically, he acts like a propaganda outlet for Microsoft.

He might do all that for free. Some people are just fanboys. Hell, look at Slashdot. "Suddenly, a bunch of Linux nerds cried out in horror, and were silenced." :-)

Re:In bed with Microsoft (1)

notdanielp (244035) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445941)

Isn't it more likely that he just teases up his screenshots and information on his own so that he can get publicity, pageviews, and ad revenue? The idea that he's working directly for MS is perhaps a tad too Orwellian.

On his own site he says "And thanks for reading, seriously. The contents of this site are literally dictated by what readers want. So drop me a line and let me know what you're interested in reading about." Maybe he really does have Windows users out there who are interested in the next Windows release? I'm pretty sure there are at least two or three people left in the world running Windows.

Re:In bed with Microsoft (4, Insightful)

Mr_Silver (213637) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445992)

The author is a "known" MS Shill. He'll often post "Screenshots" that are either complete mockups of features or given to him by MS employees to post and passes them off as his own experience.

In case you hadn't noticed, in the past few months this "MS Shill" has been singing the praises of Tiger far more than Longhorn.

In addition, his review actually points out a lot of things that Apple does well that Longhorn tries to copy and gets wrong but, in addition, he points out some other stuff which they do better.

The news here is that Microsoft's biggest fan is slowly backing away from them. If they can't keep the loyal ones, then they need to realise that there could be a problem.

Re:In bed with Microsoft (1)

dAzED1 (33635) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445860)

it's a fairly well balanced article, it is glaringly pro-microsoft

Ummm...explain how one doesn't preclude the other?

Re:In bed with Microsoft (1)

MisterMurphy (899535) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445915)

It could still be balanced (in that it gives a roughly similiar judgement of the two OSes), and still be slanted horribly in Microsoft's favor if in fact Vista is really, really bad. The slant is visible best in the difference between where each things basal awesomeness is, and then comparing that to the distance they traveled in the review.

Re:In bed with Microsoft (1)

maddmike (131437) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445945)

Ditto, The guy is a bit of a windows zealot. He has a very narrow MS point of view.

Comparable (4, Funny)

Drew Curtis (904851) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445779)

The fact that you can even compare a beta version of Windows Vista to a final release of Apple's operating systems speaks volumes about their qualities. Microsoft truly trumps the hacker shop that is Apple.

Re:Comparable (4, Funny)

rwven (663186) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445925)

lol i'm not entirely sure he meant this to be funny. It could very well be he was serious... That's the impression i got anyway... :-P

64-bit? (2, Interesting)

October_30th (531777) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445808)

Is Vista going to be a pure 64-bit OS?

Re:64-bit? (1)

MighMoS (701808) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445840)

I'm surprised that its not a requirement.

Re:64-bit? (2, Insightful)

Vorondil28 (864578) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445876)

Will every desktop have a 64-bit chip in it?

There's your answer.

Re:64-bit? (4, Informative)

cbreaker (561297) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445907)

Vista for x64 will release at the same time as Vista x86 32 bit. Like Windows XP x64, Vista x64 will be fully 64-bit capable with a compatibility layer for 32-bit stuff.

There will probably be some stipulations for driver signing on Vista that the vendors must support both platforms. Which is good, because it really doesn't take too much for fix drivers to work on x86-64. Most Linux distributions for AMD64 have had the full compliment of drivers for years.

Re:64-bit? (1)

ds_job (896062) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445975)

Probably not but on past performance, it will be purely bits of 64 O/Ss

Who cares? (1)

argent (18001) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446043)

The people who need 64 bit are already using 64-bit. They're doing it because they have to, because they're getting an advantage from the larger words and address spaces to counter the performance hit of throwing up to twice as much data around to do anything.

Alpha and AMD64 are not counterexamples. Alpha got its performance boost from a better overall architecture. AMD64 boxes are not getting a performance win from the 64-bitness of the code, but more from the larger register file. You don't need "pure 64-bit" to get this.

Apple/Microsoft comparisons are moot (4, Insightful)

ReformedExCon (897248) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445809)

The problem isn't whether or not Apple's operating system beats Windows at features A, B, and C. The problem is that Macintosh has never been accepted on corporate desktops, and that's where Microsoft's next version of Windows will be unstoppable. Outside of certain very specific industries, MacOS has never had a presence in the office setting.

The home computer market is the same story. MacOS has its fans and that gives it something like 10% of the home market, but Windows (in any incarnation) has always been more popular. It's never been simply about "OS xyz has feature abc while the competition doesn't". It's always been about getting the operating systems preinstalled on hardware. Now MacOS will be delivered on x86, and that ought to be interesting. But if customers can only buy MacOS from one vendor, that means that they won't have very much choice in hardware selection.

In the grand scheme of things, though, Apple is the largest single hardware vendor, and that's where they excel. Their software is excellent, but it's always been the hardware that keeps them financially viable.

Re:Apple/Microsoft comparisons are moot (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13445849)

Yeah, people don't use Mac OS X in the workplace.
therefore I won't use a mac, because they suck! we all know the workplace is the pinnacle of technological competence.

Re:Apple/Microsoft comparisons are moot (2, Informative)

blonde rser (253047) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445999)

[...]Apple is the largest single hardware vendor[...]

Where did you get that idea from. They are certainly in the top 5 but they are way behind dell in terms of sales.

desktop search (5, Insightful)

Councilor Hart (673770) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445810)

However, you should also realize that, for Microsoft, size of market is a competitive advantage. Features like instant desktop search are great for any operating system, but they only truly "matter" when the mainstream market is using them. And today, that only happens with Windows and its user base of several hundred million active users.

What do I care how many users are out there with some kind of desktop search. A million, a hundred million or just two. I don't care. I don't care if you use it or how you use it.
The only thing that matters with regard to desktop search is if I can use it and if it finds my stuff.

Re:desktop search (1)

smithcl8 (738234) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445901)

My thing is, I've never lost anything that was important to me as it is, at least on my computer. Sure, I may have downloaded something more than once because I didn't remember where I put it, but that's not big loss to me. But I know exactly where my main files are located and it's never been a problem. I just don't see the big deal of desktop search. Beyond this, how will Vista help my company's employees work better? I don't need prettier graphics, transparent windows, or local search capabilities (my users store everything on the network anyway). Show me a secure journaling file system, real productivity improvements, and improved stability...that's all.

Re:desktop search (1)

Councilor Hart (673770) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446073)

I also pretty much know where my files are. I never trusted windows or linux with my files. And neither did I trust Mac OS X with them.
For the first year or so. With OS X I stopped worrying about data loss or misplacement. (Yes, you still have to make backups, off-course).
I have Tiger now a week or two and I use spotlight not so much to search files but to open programs. I prefer it over taking my hand from the keyboard and using the mouse to open a program. There is another way to open programs using only the keyboard but it takes a few more keystrokes.
I wouldn't be surprised if in a year I also stop worrying where I save my data, and just use spotlight (or virtual folders).
I also stopped worrying about stability and I saved a lot of time due to less necessity for maintenance.

Negro Mobs Loot and Ravage New Orleans (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13445817)

[found at: Philadelphia Inquirer [philly.com] ]

Looters Around The City Cleaning Out Stores

At first it just seemed that the Wal-Mart in New Orleans' Lower Garden District was doing a very brisk post-hurricane business yesterday: The parking lot was full, people were leaving with brimming baskets, and city police and firefighters were there as if to oversee it all.

But people weren't going through the front door. They were squeezing between boards meant to protect the now-shattered glass from Hurricane Katrina's winds. One man was packing his van so full of computers, televisions and DVD players that he had trouble closing the rear doors. One woman was carrying three jugs of laundry detergent in a city with no power to run a washer.

As in so many past disasters elsewhere when crisis and chaos have replaced order and normalcy, a beleaguered New Orleans was beset by looters.

The widespread plundering started before Katrina had finished its onslaught Monday. That afternoon, looters broke into an emptied sporting-goods warehouse in Mid-City, a grocery in Treme, and the hardware center Uptown. In one instance, witnesses said, police were called but did nothing until one man shot another.

People said they had heard Wal-Mart had opened its doors to provide supplies for law-enforcement agencies sheltering the 10,000- plus people in the Louisiana Superdome. A Wal-Mart spokeswoman, Sharon Weber, said law enforcement, emergency-management teams, and relief agencies had "unwritten permission" to help themselves to whatever they need from Wal-Mart stores in times of crisis, but that standard procedure was for the police or aid officials to "leave us a list of what they take so they can pay us later."

At the Lower Garden District Wal-Mart, among the items seen being loaded into police cars were dozens of T-shirts, DVDs, and dog food.

But when law-enforcement officials went to get their goods, others - people of all ages and races - followed.

"They just came and no one could stop them," said David Brown, 38, a Port of New Orleans employee.

Brown and a coworker were filling their vehicle with dozens and dozens of canned goods - stews and chilis and Spaghetti-O's. Brown said the food would be used to feed the port's police and its employees, many of whom, like him, had worked nonstop since Saturday.

They were only taking essentials, he said, though a copy of Queen Latifah's Beauty Shop movie had apparently made that list.

Brown said the work showed no sign of easing.

"It's pretty bad," he said. "They've been calling for body bags all day."

Most streets in New Orleans were empty yesterday except for the hub around the Wal-Mart, in a section of the city that remained dry. People were everywhere: in cars and trucks, pushing goods in carts and baby carriages, dragging full trash cans and laundry baskets. The steady stream of cars caused a traffic jam on the streets near the store - the type of traffic jam last seen here when people tried to evacuate.

"Is everything free?" asked a woman who pulled up in a red car. Hearing "yes," she started to chant: "TV! TV! TV!"

Inside, a teenage boy held up a pair of blue lacy panties and snickered, "I want to see somebody in these so bad," before tossing them in his basket.

Another man used a table to break into one of the last unscathed jewelry cases.

A rumor that the National Guard had arrived sent people running toward the store's exit, shouting: "Come on! Come on!" But no one put down any merchandise, and the Guard rumor turned out to be false.

Some shoppers were oddly selective. One woman said she was taking only facial-care products. Another was pushing a cart filled with silk roses and baby's breath. In the pharmacy aisle, she leaned over the handle, pushing it slowly as she read labels the way a paying customer would.

But the overwhelming feeling was one of chaos - angry shouting, carts ramming, fast grabbing. When a teenage girl passed out face down between the baby clothes and a women's-sock display, people pushed past or stepped on her.

Joseph LoCascio of Picayune, Miss., stopped to try to help the girl. He rolled her over, and she vomited pink liquid all over her face and hair. He then rolled her back.

"People just walking around like they don't care," he said.

He and his friend Sandi Nolan, 21, of Baton Rouge, tried to revive the girl by pouring water, Gatorade and soda over her face and neck. It only left her shirt and hair soaked.

LoCascio tried to get a man in a firefighter T-shirt to treat the girl, but the man hesitated, saying: "She's breathing. If I took her, where would I take her?"

About 15 minutes later, a firefighter medic arrived and began checking the girl. Still, LoCascio and Nolan were furious at their fellow looters.

Both have infants being treated at Children's Hospital, New Orleans, and had come to get baby food and supplies.

"I've never seen people like this. I have drinks and chips, things I need," Nolan said. "They're getting chain saws and fishing poles, anything they can get for free."

As she and LoCascio left, she noticed he had at least a dozen DVDs in his basket, as well as baby formula and baby food. She laughed and pointed it out to him.

"They're for the kids, so they can watch them," he said. "Things like Finding Nemo."

Nolan laughed. "Don't worry," she said. "I got a few too."

This isnt the first time.... (3, Insightful)

BubbleSparkxx (879715) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445818)

Like this is the first time MS has "borrowed" from Apple.

Anyone remember the claims against Windows 3.1?

How to comment? (4, Funny)

Zo0ok (209803) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445824)

I found no graph! No simplified rating system! Just text! Am I supposed to RTFA in order to complain about it? Is this really slashdot?

Comments (5, Informative)

Mr_Silver (213637) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445826)

Having read it just before it was posted on Slashdot, I do also believe that it is a very good review from someone who once was the poster boy for Microsoft.

It would appear that after looking at Tiger, Paul's faith in Microsoft has been shaken and these-days he is more critical of what they do and how they implement things.

Hopefully Slashdot will post part 2 as it does make interesting reading.

On a side note: Apple is now offering a Mac Mini [apple.com] testdrive via its online store, allowing prospective customers to purchase a mini and then return it for a full refund within thirty days if they don't like it.

Good news is that they're not charging a restocking fee. Bad news is that you'll have to pay for the shipping if you send it back, the offer only applies to stock minis (not custom jobs) and it's not available outside of the USA.

Can't get everything I suppose. However still might be worth a look, especially since it gives people the opportunity of a risk free (in terms of your credit card) chance to try a completely different operating system.

Re:Comments (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13446004)

However still might be worth a look, especially since it gives people the opportunity of a risk free (in terms of your credit card) chance to try a completely different operating system.

So does Knoppix.

Of course, Knoppix is also available outside the USA, doesn't cost anything whether you decide to keep it or not, and - unless you have an ancient PC - doesn't force you to use hopelessly underpowered hardware. So clearly the Mac Mini is superior, if you're a sucker.

same old (1, Interesting)

comicnerd (866351) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445827)

I've been hearing this for years: "My Mac was able to do [blank] years before Windows did it, and it still does it better than windows for a mere $1,000 more than your silly little white box."

Mac does do it better, IMHO, just not cheaper.

Re:same old (1)

argent (18001) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445969)

it still does it better than windows for a mere $1,000 more than your silly little white box.

The "Mac Tax" on the mini is below $200.

Re:same old (1)

teamhasnoi (554944) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446009)

Mac does do it better, IMHO, just not cheaper.

Funny, all the people I know with Windows boxes have had them in 'the shop' countless times to be cleaned of spyware and the like, have had to spend money on more RAM so they'll run at a resonable pace while loaded down with spyware, and have had to buy antivirus, a firewall, spyware removers, and subscriptions to those services.

All while I work happily away on my Macs, enjoying transparent computing.

I don't have to bring the Mac in to remove whatever, install anti-whatever, purchase subscriptions to anti-whatever, and don't have to deal with whatever filled email. What a huge time-saver.

To me, that's priceless.

Re:same old (4, Informative)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446068)

it still does it better than windows for a mere $1,000 more than your silly little white box."

Wow you can buy a small form factor PC for -$500 dollars? Sign me up for a billion of them. Oh, wait, you didn't mean to include minis. OK, just send me a few million of those free consumer grade laptops and a couple of those $500 professional laptops with the firewire, multiple monitor support, comprehensive software package etc.

Or maybe you can do a little research and stop spreading that ridiculous FUD about how expensive Apple machines are. Apple does not offer as many price points and form factors, but they are pretty competitive if you compare them on the included hardware and software vs. price.

Apples and oranges (1)

bugbeak (711163) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445828)

Putting the whole MS-copied-this-from-Apple! cries, isn't this like comparing apples and oranges? (pun not intended) Maybe when Mactels come out, we can do a better analysis.

Re:Apples and oranges (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13446024)

They are comparing operating systems which, speed aside, are pretty independent of the hardware they are running on.

Quick Notes... (5, Informative)

mgahs (686653) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445833)

Why are we comparing a Beta 1 to a shipping product? We all know Microsoft still has stuff to shelve before they ship.

"They never would have been announced during 2004 had Microsoft not first revealed that it was making the feature a standard feature of the next Windows."

Riiight. Because we all know that Spotlight was bolted onto Tiger in response to Longhorn. Don't these things take months (maybe years) to create and fine-tune?

"In short, though there are some bizarre inconsistencies in the Tiger UI, it is far more elegant looking than Aero in Windows Vista Beta 1."

What inconsistencies? He doesn't list them in the previous paragraphs, he simply concludes "Hey, Tiger's a little messed up, but it's still better!"

"Tiger does however have a hard-to-find "Spotlight Comments" section the Get Info box for any document in which you can add keywords or phrases as desired."

It's not that hidden, it's right at the top of the Get Info window; and it's not just for documents, it's for *any* file or folder.

I give up.

Re:Quick Notes... (1)

MighMoS (701808) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445890)

The inconsitancies I've seen from Apple are when people people run iTunes on windows, and it doesn't blend in with the rest of the environment. I'm not sure if that's fair to pin against Apple or not, because *sigh* MS does that too with office. People say it doesn't matter, but I think an integrated DE in terms of appearance makes a big aesthetic difference.

Re:Quick Notes... (1, Insightful)

Paradox (13555) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446016)

What inconsistencies? He doesn't list them in the previous paragraphs, he simply concludes "Hey, Tiger's a little messed up, but it's still better!"
A ton. Howabout click-raises-focus vs. click through? The lunacy of the Finder? Wtf is up with the search on System Preferences? The Dock's UI is getting better, but still has issues. Etc, etc, etc. And this is just the stuff I pulled from a search of the very pro-mac blog DaringFireball.net.

I love MacOS X. I cannot imagine using anything else for desktop work (and I cannot imagine using Windows for anything). But at the end of the day, OS X is still a work in progress. It is [b]not[/b] perfect! As long as we can accept that, we can help Apple build a better OS with our feedback, and that's what we all want.

Re:Quick Notes... (4, Interesting)

igb (28052) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446019)

After 20 years of SunOS/Solaris on my desktop I'm having a little explore of OSX. Found a flimsy excuse for a Mac Mini and a 1G stick of RAM, bought a couple of wallpaper strippers to open the case and off I go. So I'm unusual in being a motivated Mac switcher whose background is not Windows. Three days, and I'm enjoying it at lot (although I got frustrated with the limitations of the Date and Time dialogue and hacked /etc/ntp.conf by hand...)

Inconsistencies in the Mac UI? The most obvious one is that you double click to launch applications from the finder but single click them from the dock. Double click isn't always safe, because sometimes it'll launch two copies.

Another is that some configuration dialogs have `OK' or similar buttons, while others take effect immediately, while others take effect when they are dismissed.

These are hardly earth-shattering, and as a long-term GUI-distruster I'm very impressed (hell, I'm using `Mail' while since 1988 I've used MH or mutt). But it's not perfect: it's just very, very good.

ian

Re:Quick Notes... (4, Informative)

aristotle-dude (626586) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446079)

Icons generally are double clicked whereas toolbar buttons are not. The dock is a toolbar/launcher rather than a collection of icons. The same thing goes for the "sidebar" which is also a toolbar/shelf.

That convention is generally accepted on most OSes throughout history.

Re:Quick Notes... (5, Interesting)

FireFlie (850716) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446042)

One thing that really caught me off guard (other than the bizarre inconsistencies in tiger that I havn't noticed) is the comment reguarding spotlight's searching as you type being counter-productive? I have a Powerbook G4 (so obviously not the most powerful mac available currently), and I have noticed absolutely no lag in performance when typing in a spotlight search. Actually you can often see the document you need in spotlight as you type, so by finding it before you even finish typing your search query wouldn't you actually be slightly (although unnoticably) more productive? Unless of course the moving text in the spotlight box is just so confusing and hypnotizing that he cannot continue typing.

"It's not that hidden, it's right at the top of the Get Info window; and it's not just for documents, it's for *any* file or folder."

I saw a few comments similar to the one you were answering here, and my take is that all of the features he considers hard to find may only be so if one has only ever used Windows, and cannot get out of the windows mindset. I have had my notebook for about a year (and I have used many oses including dos, every version of windows to date, linux, irix, etc), and I find most features and ways of organization in os x to be more intuitive than any other os I have used.

Oh yea, I also agree about the origin of spotlight. He clearly says that he has no clue wether features like spotlight were originally intended, or came from microsoft? First of all, has apple historically ever worried about microsofts features validating their own ideas before including them? He certainly leaves the possibility open that apple somehow copied the idea for spotlight from microsoft, but it doesn't seem logical. For spotlight to work so well, and be so bug free (I have not noticed problems anyway) I doubt that they said "hey that sounds cool, we'll do it too".

Perhaps in another article he will talk about microsoft adding a new dashboard-like feature, so apple must have stolen it from microsoft. Give me a break.

BoBW: Dual Booting (4, Insightful)

Windsinger (889841) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445850)

I look foward to dual-booting both OS's off the same intel/amd system for the Best of Both Worlds.

If the gaming on OSX ever gets up to par with the windows systems, then it would be my OS of choice. It's no where near as fast as the Windows system is for this. And that's assuming the game you want to play is even ported to OSX.

Though the drawback to this is of course siding with Steve Jobs. *cries*

Really? (5, Interesting)

Dragoon412 (648209) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445867)

The point it raises - 'Windows Vista Beta 1 is a much-needed demonstration that Microsoft can still churn out valuable Windows releases, after years of doubt.

Really? I thought XP was fairly useful, if only an incremental upgrade to 2k.

Meanwhile, Vista is panning out to be nothing but XP with alpha transparency and a lot more DRM. As a network admin, I see no reason at all to upgrade. As a gamer, I see no reason at all to upgrade; Avalon/WGF are being ported to XP. As a user, there's incentive not to upgrade, because it costs more, it's more of a hassle, and it doesn't allow me to do anything I can't do on XP, already.

So... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13445875)

...are they going to move the menus to the top of the screen (from the tops of the Windows)?

No? Then at least one fundamental point is different between the two OSes.

Slashdot News for nerds, stuff that matters [ faq | code | awards | journals | subscribe | older stuff | rob's page | preferences | submit story | advertising | supporters | past polls | topics | about | bugs | tech jobs | hof ] Slow Down Cowboy! Slashdot requires you to wait between each successful posting of a comment to allow everyone a fair chance at posting a comment. It's been 9 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment Chances are, you're behind a firewall or proxy, or clicked the Back button to accidentally reuse a form. Please try again. If the problem persists, and all other options have been tried, contact the site administrator. Preview Comment So... (Score:) by Anonymous Coward on 2005-08-31 11:15 ...are they going to move the menus to the top of the screen (from the tops of the Windows)? No? Then at least one fundamental point is different between the two OSes. [ Reply to This ] Post Comment Name RailGunner [ Log Out ] Subject Comment (Use the Preview Button! Check those URLs!) No Karma Bonus No Subscriber Bonus Post Anonymously Allowed HTML


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Interesting (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13445898)

Well, completely offtopic, but i kept staring at this red ad for about two minutes without knowing why, until i came to realize that there's a syntax error in the code. damn clever.

Not necessarily (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13445936)

The Dice ad? It is a two part ad... there is both an opening and closing brace, if you see both parts of the ad.

déjà vu (2, Funny)

EnsilZah (575600) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445917)

"For Mac OS X users, however, Windows Vista Beta 1 engenders a sense of déjà vu."

Yeah, us WinXP users are getting some of that déjà... ooooh look, shiny!

Not impressed by Tiger (4, Interesting)

Sanity (1431) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445921)

I have been running Tiger since the day it came out, and I must say that I am not all that impressed by it.

Spotlight is really slow on my G4 Powerbook (1GB RAM), it can take 8 seconds to find what I am looking for. I don't see why it should take so long if everything is pre-indexed.

Dashboard isn't terribly useful either, its a nice gimmick, but I find myself using it very infrequently. The selection of Widgets is symptomatic of this, I mean, who really needs a countdown timer to the next episode of Battlestar Galactica just one keypress away at any moment?

Both Spotlight and Dashboard have gained reputations for slowing overall machine performance too.

I have yet to find a use for Automator, and from what I can see from the rather uninspiring selection of Automator Actions people have created, neither has anyone else. Its a nice idea, but in practice not a very useful one.

Re:Not impressed by Tiger (1)

Darth Maul (19860) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445971)

"I mean, who really needs a countdown timer to the next episode of Battlestar Galactica just one keypress away at any moment?"

Me! I love that widget.

"I have yet to find a use for Automator, and from what I can see from the rather uninspiring selection of Automator Actions people have created, neither has anyone else. Its a nice idea, but in practice not a very useful one."

Now I agree on that one. I love Tiger, but I have yet to use Automator. I started it up once, but didn't find the interface very intuitive. Agreed, great on paper.

Re:Not impressed by Tiger (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13446041)

But it's Battlestar Galactica! How can you say things like that? Battlestar Galactica! Having a countdown without looking at my watch almost makes me want to go get a Mac or make a SuperKaramba widget right now.

Apple will never leave the computer OS business (-1, Troll)

Ralph Spoilsport (673134) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445923)

Why how?

Microsoft would lose its R&D department.

The classic Win95=Mac89 structure still holds. Apple innovates, Microsoft copies the idea and bungles it in its own uniquely retarded way.

I just spent 3 hours last night helping a friend put a new CD burner in his eMachines WinXP box. Fuckin' nightmare. Still doesn't work right. I put a new CD burner in an OSX box I have on my desk here at work this morning, and it only took 1/2 an hour - it works fine and dandy - and I took a few minutes in the middle of it all for an emergency bout of bodily waste excretion.

Steaming heap of hot buttered groat clusters...My MYYYyyyyyyy...

So, spend sleepless and often fruitless hours wrangling with the nightmare that is Windows, or, spend 1/2 an hour of simplicity itself, with enough time to take a good healthy shit and read the front page of the newspaper... I'll take the Bog - it might be full of shit, "but it's really great shit, Mrs Presky..."

RS

Re:Apple will never leave the computer OS business (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#13446020)

What a shock, upgrading a cheap POS computer is more difficult than an expensive one. Windows is not an inherently difficult platform for which to install hardware, especially not a CD burner. It would have taken me about 10 minutes-- pop off front bezel plate, screw on drive rails, hook up ATA cable and slide in. Done.

Re:Apple will never leave the computer OS business (1)

tuxkamen (157118) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446030)

What I don't understand is how putting a CD burner in is such a big deal. Hook up two cables (maybe enslave the evil drive). Install your burning software of choice or use windows' (bleh) software. And it works. I've been doing it for years, and never took more than a half hour. Unless I neglected to enslave said drive. Oh well, I guess some computers just plain suck sometime.

Re:Apple will never leave the computer OS business (1)

Cennon (837504) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446040)

...I have on my desk here at work this morning, and it only took 1/2 an hour - it works fine and dandy - and I took a few minutes in the middle of it all for an emergency bout of bodily waste excretion.

Steaming heap of hot buttered groat clusters...My MYYYyyyyyyy...

Um... is there a "-1, Vaguely Unsettling" mod?

No? Well, just asking.

Re:Apple will never leave the computer OS business (1)

Khyber (864651) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446045)

Please tell me which CD_Burner you had problems installing in a Windows box so I know to avoid it. I'm usually looking at power down, throw drive in, plg in cables, turn computer on, and burn. Ten minutes, *IF* that under any Windows platform.

Curious introduction to the article (1)

brokeninside (34168) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445930)

From TFA: For accuracy, I think it's important to compare Windows Vista Beta 1 to both Mac OS X Tiger and the promises that Microsoft made at the Professional Developers Conference (PDC) 2003

But the only comparissons I could find were between Tiger and Vista. Where were the comparissons of Vista functionality to promises made at PDC 03?

Tiger supports 256 x 256 Icons (4, Informative)

shawnce (146129) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445939)

Paul missed the fact that Tiger supports 256 x 256 icons as an extension to the existing icon data format.

Icon Services in Tiger has been extended to support icons that are 256 x 256 pixel in size. To support these larger icons, a new icon type selector has been added for you to use in calls to SetIconFamilyData and GetIconFamilyData. The selector is kIconServices256PixelDataARGB and is defined in IconStorage.h.

With SetIconFamilyData, a non-premultiplied 256x256 ARGB bitmap should be provided as input and IconServices will compress it before storing it in the ICNS container.

With GetIconFamilyData an uncompressed raw 256x256 ARGB bitmap is returned. The only difference is that the returned image contains the alpha channel where for the previously supported icon sizes there are 2 separate selectors: one for the mask and one for the data.


(reference [apple.com] , look at the bottom)

Valuable? (1)

miffo.swe (547642) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445943)

I cant really see the value here. New clothes and some fixes. Its really just XP with a new interface. I cant see any new tech that would get people to jump out of joy. Desktop search is based on flawed thinking. If you dont take the time to remember and care about where you put your files do you really think you will take the time to index them? Its also avaliable today on XP from various companies so its not like its a new shiny feature.

I feal like this article is just a dun of the mill hype fest to get some excitement going for a new Microsoft OS. The problem is its just Windows XP Second Edition.

fugly (0, Troll)

JunkmanUK (909293) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445947)

Am I the only one who thinks Vista looks damn ugly... like the designers spent the afternoon in Fisher Price for inspiration?

Comparing either Shipping OSs (3, Insightful)

instantkarma1 (234104) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445961)

or Leopard to Vista.

Comparing Tiger to a beta OS is hardly fair. And even so, Tiger comes out on top.

Inquiring minds want to know, (3, Interesting)

pair-a-noyd (594371) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445967)

(well, actually skeptical minds)

Just what does Windows Vista do, Out Of the Box??

I mean, as it comes, without having to PURCHASE additional software such as MS Office, Word, etc..

As distributed, what can you do with it?
Word processing?
Financial stuff?
Photo & image manipulation (Paint prog?)
Spreadsheets?
Desktop publishing?
Multimedia editing / DVD authoring & burning?
Webpage authoring / editing?

I'm curious. Can Vista do any of these things as it comes or do you have to dish out more cash separately for each desired application, on top of the price to purchase the OS??

   

Re:Inquiring minds want to know, (3, Insightful)

goldspider (445116) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446015)

'round these parts, that's called "bloat" and "monopoly abuse".

Re:Inquiring minds want to know, (5, Funny)

deong (88798) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446075)

> As distributed, what can you do with it?

Nearly everything on your list is perfectly supported right out of the box...

> Word processing?
Wordpad

> Financial stuff?
Calc

> Photo & image manipulation (Paint prog?)
Paint

> Spreadsheets?
Calc

> Desktop publishing?
Wordpad

> Webpage authoring / editing?
Notepad

Come on, man. What more do you want?

Search not instant? (4, Interesting)

mdarksbane (587589) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445981)

Unlike with Spotlight, Vista Beta 1's searches are not instantaneous, but this is by design and is arguably a better choice.


Quite arguably. Say I'm looking for "Programming in C", which may or may not actually be named that on my disc (although I know it'll have program-something in its name).

Tiger:
Pro... Final cut pro shows up...gr ... progressive insurance...am... Programming in C! There it is. This is all at one constant typing speed and watching the results, no waiting or stopping, instant feedback.

Vista:
You have two options:
Pro + enter
too many results, try again
Program + enter
program files.... look down the list.. there it is!

or

Programming + enter
hmmm... I don't see it... try
Program + enter ... look through the list...
oh! the name was mispelled in the filename and was actually "programing" of course

And at this point I've made how many searches to equal the instant feedback of Tiger? Instant feedback is the whole point of having desktop search! Otherwise it's only a slight improvement over what they've had for ages.

Why not compare beta to beta? (1)

Clyde (150895) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445982)

How does Thurrot get off comparing Microsoft's unreleased OS to Apple's released update - which has been in user's hands for while now? He should be comparing Vista beta to the next release of OS X, not Tiger.

And this crap about the feature only being valid when exposed to a wide audience? So the OS don't work if Microsoft doesn't sell 200 million copies? WTF?

Slashdot users are such hypocrites... (1)

ninja_assault_kitten (883141) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445986)

Google Talk comes out with Beta 1 and gets nothing but praise enough though it has 1/10th the functionality of other IM offerings.. but hey, it's *******OPEN******* (sort of). MS comes out with Beta 1 of Vista and IE7 and gets nothing but bitch slaps for more than anything, because it's MS. Forget cool features like anti-phishing in IE7. Lets step back here and look at Tiger Beta 1... it crashed only a daily basis and had very limited new functionality. It was nothing like the final release. Yet here we're comparing Tiger release to Vista Beta 1.... Anyways, like Apple, I'm sure MS has quite a few tricks up their sleaves which we haven't seen in Vista B1.

My most loved feature on OS X (1)

OsirisX11 (598587) | more than 9 years ago | (#13445998)

The folder browsing view where folders appear in a new pane on the right every time a new folder is selected, one after another. What's that called? Can I reproduce the same effect in linux?

Inadvertant note about why OS X so nice to use (5, Interesting)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446001)

Too, I'd like to remind you that Windows Vista is only in Beta 1. Lots of things are going to change, and many, many features will be added by Beta 2 and beyond. This stands in sharp contrast to Apple's approach with Tiger. If you go back and look at the WWDC 2004 keynote video, you'll see Steve Jobs demo virtually every single major new feature in Tiger. A year later, when the product actually shipped, little had changed and nothing major was added. This isn't how Microsoft works. Beta 1 is a minor subset of the overall functionality we're going to see in the final Windows Vista product.

So what he's saying here is that Apple figured out what features they wanted, then took years to refine them.

Vs. Microsoft, which has a beta out now but will cram a lot of stuff in over the next several months and let users test it in early releases.

Re:Inadvertant note about why OS X so nice to use (1)

Cheeze (12756) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446076)

Right, for MS, the beta test really starts when they first ship their product. What they send out now is really an alpha release with limited functionality.

I don't think they've ever really made a finished product. DOS was pretty good for what it did, espectially since it wasn't natively internet friendly.

Unfortunate Comparison (5, Insightful)

xWakawaka (187814) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446029)

Unfortunate Comparison

I'm sort of amazed that every mention of Vista or Mac OS in the press focuses entirely on GUI widgets and desktop search (the feature of the month, apparently)- and in comparing these two things between Windows and Mac OS X.

Frankly, I am a fan of both of these OSes (and others), but comparing the two in this way is silly, because their target audiences and development focuses are wildly different.

Sure Vista is going to include some updated UI elements, and this will inevitably generate comparisons with Mac OS, but I believe that for the Windows folks updating the UI is a tiny frilly prize at the end of a much more substantial journey. (I think) Most of the work going into Vista is not related to wow-ing an individual user with the splashy out of box experience (though there will be some of this). Instead, most of the work going on is targeted at corporate IT installations of tens of thousands of machines and the associated management costs. Things like new deployment options, services hardening, re-engineering to provide functionality while reducing attack surface, expanding on multiple layers of management frameworks, expanding on policy enforcement, network access protection, using AES for more and more crypto functions, etc, etc, etc... In some cases Vista will represent a radical advance in the plumbing of the Windows platform.

I guess it is understandable that a reviewer wouldn't be interested in these more important things, focusing entirely on UI widgets, but it is unfortunate that a project as substantial as Vista, one which will likely affect all of us, is only represented in the press with the thought "Now includes desktop search! Sort of like Mac OS!"

N Years == Animated Icons (3, Interesting)

Vile Slime (638816) | more than 9 years ago | (#13446071)

Ok,

I'm neither impressed by this Vista or Tiger thing.

MS takes how many years to produce a windowing system that has animated icons?

Or N number of years to come up with a manner of searching your files that quite frankly doesn't sound any better to me than what already exists.

I mean quite honestly, how many grandmothers are going to build what is essentially an SQL where clause to find their great-grandbabies photos.

If those grannys are like my mother they will be lucky to remember where the friggin power switch is from day-to-day.

The author states:

> For Windows enthusiasts, Windows Vista Beta 1 is a much-needed demonstration that Microsoft can still churn out valuable Windows releases

I guess he is right assuming your expectations are incredibly low.
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