How Much Money do Programmers Really Make? 909
bigman2003 asks: "ADTmag.com recently released a list of average salaries for IT workers. Usually when I see these lists, I find out that I am grossly below the average salary. But this time I was very surprised to see that I am actually above the average! This is partly because of a recent raise, but it is also because the numbers quoted in this survey are lower than what I've seen the past from other surveys. This report quotes about $56,000 for the average application developer. I am a web developer (sure, laugh all you want) and I wanted to know specifically: How much are other web developers were making? And- How many hours a week does it take you to make it?"
The more interesting question is (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:The more interesting question is (Score:5, Interesting)
well people do not really have their programming needds done here
but as a sysadmin (windows) you can make $1500 a month
as unix/networking/firewalls I made around $2500 3 years ago
i dunno about programming in general at companies, I did some smaller programming things (mostly php + SQL) on a $50/hour basis (that makes it 8*50*20*12 = $96.000) but I gues sitting in a cube and sometimes coding some crap for someone fro a few days is a different story
besides in costa rica you can make a comfortable living on $1500 a month - including a maid so you do not sink in your own filth (I guess danger of IT workers's homes - at least sysadmins I know )
Re:The more interesting question is (Score:5, Interesting)
I think developer jobs in the US have been riding a huge bubble for a long time, and will need to fall drastically to compete with overseas programmers. Supply and demand and all that.
----
Only to the extent that a country is limited to the field of computing. If wages fall drastically in one field, workers simply shift into another field. Who is going to work for 30K/yr as a computer scientist when they can make 100K as a ________ (fill in the blank with your own 2nd job preference: biologist, real estate agent, small business owner, beach bum, etc)?
Based on my own personal experiences, I would say that market demand is strong and supply is low. The outsourcing hysteria has already driven computer science enrollment into the dirt. Even schools like MIT and CIT have reported a 40+% drop in CS students. My own school went from 1200 to 800 CS students last year. Appx 90% of whom were undergrads and US citizens (which matters because the defense companies are literally tripping over each other trying to hire CS grads who can obtain a clearance).
I haven't heard the enrollment numbers for this semester yet, but I know that at least 10 additional classes were cancelled due to low enrollment.
And how would I characterize the job market in the area (S CA)? Actually, I would say that it is pretty healthy. Healthiest that I've seen since 2001.
- I was at Unix users group meeting the other night and five people had job announcements.
- One of our competitors has been offering 10K and 15K signing bonuses to our employees.
- We can't fill two entry level positions!
- A recruiter called me out of the blue two weeks ago.
The demand is there - it will be until we are no longer dependent on humans designing and implementing programs, doing research, administering systems, etc.
Given the drastically reduced supply of computer science graduates, the always depressingly low number of US MS and PHD students in CS (personally, I blame sports and MTV), and the healthy demand for GOOD computer scientists, I would say that wages in computer science related jobs are probably going to increase substantially over the next decade.
Also, if there is any bubble around, it is called 'outsourcing', which has been a very hit and miss ordeal for many companies. Everyone knows that companies are reluctant to report a security breach. They're just as reluctant to report an outsourcing failure, if not more so. How do you make the following sound nice... 'Well, first, we laid off 100 people to try and save 500k a year. Then the outsourcing company stole 200k from us. Finally, a disgruntled former employee put most of our source code on the internet. Now we're 2 years behind our competition, who was 2 years behind us last year, and all of our GOOD former employees have already found jobs with other companies.'
Re:The more interesting question is (Score:3, Interesting)
And how would I characterize the job market in the area (S CA)? Actually, I would say that it is pretty healthy. Healthiest that I've seen since 2001.
- I was at Unix users group meeting the other night and five people had job announcements.
- One of our competitors has been offering 10K and 15K signing bonuses to our employees.
- We can't fill two entry level positions!
- A recruiter called me out of the blue two weeks ago.
I can second that. I find I can usually get an idea of the job market by the headhunte
Not That Easy (Score:5, Insightful)
Simple formula (Score:5, Funny)
If you quit and leave with a pat on the back then you were being over-paid.
(... bottom line you are just a serf that will live a boring-unimportant-debt-filled life and most likely will welcome death after 30)
Re:Simple formula (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Simple formula (Score:5, Funny)
Go on, try it.
Life sucks. Get a helmet.
Re:Simple formula (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Not That Easy (Score:5, Interesting)
Take my job for instance:
Web CRM Developer/Maintainer (for in house use)
Low-mid level IT Support
Satellite network diagnostics and maintenance
Field work (roughly one week every two months)
Web development
My job title: Jr. Software Engineer (note the lovely "Jr.")
My pay: not enough - but how much should I make? The same as a CRM Developer/Maintainer (I wish), the same as a low level help desk employee (it'd be a raise)?
Re:Not That Easy (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm about to graduate from DeVry University (I should graduate next year) with a degree in Computer Information Systems.
I think I'm a fairly skilled developer. While I certainly do not have the experience of someone who has been employeed as a developer for years.
The thing of it is, I'm afraid that the stigma of my "school" is going to mean that I won't be able to find a job, perphaps even when I'm the most skilled candidate.
I'm not going to say DeVry's reputation is completely undeserved, but some times I think DeVry graduates reputations are undeserved.
Using myself as an example, I am a fairly skilled developer, I understand a lot of the theory behind computer science as well as the practical side of developing software. What I didn't understand, and what I really wasn't able to learn on my own- was how businesses operate.
What DeVry really teaches is how to apply analysis/design/programming skills to buisnesses. Granted they advertise as teaching those skills and don't, but for someone who already has a solid basis in the technology, they do teach how to use the knowledge of technology to benefit the buisiness process.
I would personally think that in the business world having someone who understood business as well as technology would be a boon. Perhaps though I've just been brainwashed.
Re:Not That Easy (Score:3, Informative)
They have those. They're called "tech guys with MBA's".
Re:Not That Easy (Score:4, Insightful)
Providing that this is true, yes, it is a HUGE boon. This is probably the most important thing -- to be able to communicate and operate in both worlds.
However, there are many who deceive themselves about how good they are in either world. Here are questions to think about for how good you are technically:
1) How long does it take you to learn a new programming language? This is important because it tells you how well you understand the _principles_ of programming languages, and how easy it will be to adapt to whatever environment you need to do.
* How long does it take you to learn a new platform? This is important because platforms always change, and you will likely have to interface with several. It also tells how easy it is for you to adopt new patterns of doing things.
* Have you ever programmed in assembly language? This is important because, ultimately, this is how the computer works.
* Can you write translators between systems, data stores, and protocols? This is important because almost every development job requires this in some sort. There are always disparate systems that need to be wired together. There are always unstructured data sources that need to be cleaned up and stored in a database. I've had to scrape HTML (and even Javascript) into a database on multiple occasions. In fact, once I had to tie into a system that only produced HTML and javascript as output, and had to write an API that could access it as a regular data source.
* Can you explain what you are doing and what your problems are in a way that communicates what management needs to know, without talking down to them? Can you truly explain what your issues are in a way that is jargon-free, or where the jargon is fully explained? Many non-technical managers are smart people (not all of them, obviously), but are not techy. Obviously, the dumb ones may need to be pounded on a bit, but there is no reason you should not be able to describe specifically what kinds of problems you are having to an intelligent, non-technical person.
Re:Not That Easy (Score:3, Funny)
Tom
Re:Not That Easy (Score:3, Informative)
It's not about not being clever; a CS degree doesn't teach you that. With theory, you can do things like jump to a totally different programming language and learn it very quickly because you probably understand what's going on behind the scenes to some extent. You said you know theory, but apparently didn't unde
Re:Not That Easy (Score:5, Informative)
I found a cost of living calculator at Salary.com the other day, because I'm looking at moving within a year or two. I currently make a base salary of ~$55,000 as a web developer in Dallas, Texas. Here are some numbers of approximately what I would need to make in various cities across the U.S to be at the same level:
As expected, the cost of living is higher in the big cities, especially in California and New York State. Anyway, I hope this was helpful. The link is below if you want to try it yourself.
http://swz.salary.com/CostOfLivingWizard/layoutscr ipts/coll_start.asp [salary.com]
Re:Not That Easy (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Not That Easy (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not That Easy (Score:4, Insightful)
You can couch a non-saving lifestyle in whatever platitudes you like. But saving is generally considered to be a virtue for a very good reason: if tragedy strikes, you don't suddenly demand that the state (e.g. the funding of your fellow citizens) come bail you out.
Re:Not That Easy (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Not That Easy (Score:5, Informative)
Janis Joplin once sang, "'Freedom' is just another word for 'nothing left to lose'". While this is true to some extent, I think that more aptly applies to not being a slave to consumer culture.
In any event, 'freedom' for my family and I means owning our home and reducing our monetary needs to the bare minimum.
That means getting out of debt and staying out of debt. I'm only 33, and have dealt with debt. I cannot stress to you younger folks enough how evil debt is. The only thing you should have debt on is a house and maybe a vehicle.
Own your assets outright, or aim for that as aggressively as possible.
Home owenership has been the best thing for our family. We bought our first home for $85k, and sold it for $115k. Sure, we probably paid $50k in interest during the 5 years we owned it, but that is deductible. Only some states allow rent deductions, and the Fed does not. When we sold, we paid off a number of debts. We then bought a home for $45k (we put $10k down) and are getting ready to sell for $60k. So we'll take that $20k or so in equity and roll that into our next house, which will be in the $50k-to-$75k range. The plan is to pay that down quickly and own it outright in 5 years -- then rent it and move into another similarly-priced home, or perhaps a duplex, then pay that off. Given the rental market, I could "retire" at the ripe age of 43, never having to lift a finger while bringing in at least $2k/month. My family of 4 can easily live very comfortably on that.
Going against conventional wisdom, when I quit my last job, I liquidated my retirement fund (403b, I think, with all proceeds being contributed by my employer). I got dinged on the taxes, but I used that pay off our "retirement" property. If the shit ever hits the fan, my family has a place to go. I also bought and sold a parcel that's paying for itself in a rapidly growing market. While I still owe on it, my buyer is essentially making the payments for me. I netted a few grand (more on potential interest), and the current market is such that if he flakes I'll own a prime piece of development property in an area that's expanding by leaps and bounds.
I've never made an exceptional salary, the peak being $53k and currently at $45k, in a modest employment market. So that should tell you that most anyone can prepare their future on a modest salary if they desire to do so.
While compound interest is a great tool for many people's retirement plans, ownership of land and houses is more secure in my opinion. At the least, you'll have a roof over your head for nothing (excepting taxes), and at best you'll have a passive income. Plus you'll have an assett that you can sell for a large (possibly tax-free) chunk of change, if you need a large wad of cash.
No, it's not about status or knowing who I am. I've never owned a home newer than 90 years, or a car newer than 5 years. I currently own a beat-up '91 sedan, that gets decent fuel economy and results in the smallest tax liability (12 years or older in my state). It's about having assetts at my disposal, and having them work for me.
Re:Not That Easy (Score:3, Informative)
Tell that to the Japanese that got caught up in the Tokyo Real Estate bubble of the late '80's and early '90's. The collapse of
Re:Not That Easy (Score:5, Informative)
While true, this reminds me of that study [washingtontimes.com] they did recently where they showed that peoples' happiness was more based on relative income than absolute income. Though it should be job satisfaction and the other things you mentioned that really count.
Engineer (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Software Developer (Score:3, Funny)
I expect you're about ready to make a go at the Matterhorn by now, eh?
Re:Engineer (Score:4, Funny)
I get to spend most of my work day (30-40 mins on average) coding in f*ckf*ck. During that time, I write natural language systems that are being deployed on Mars rovers. These are secret Mars rovers that we're using to help interpret Martian languages.
All of this can hardly keep my, only moderately sized, mansion in Luxembourg afloat.
Re:Engineer (Score:3, Funny)
well (Score:2, Funny)
National surveys are meaningless (Score:4, Interesting)
The only reason why publishing companies waste their time on such surveys is that people are so interested in the topic. The unfortunate thing is that the data is meaningless on a national scale. But, it sells advertising!
Re:National surveys are meaningless (Score:2, Funny)
Re:National surveys are meaningless (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't know if this is true of every company, but it wouldn't surprise me, since global companies make the same profit from your work, no matter where you live.
So, as I see it, at least with my company, living in the heart of an urban area is something that comes straight out of employee's pockets, since it's primarily a benefit to the employee (we're a tech/manufacturing company, not a financial/investment firm or anything that might more reasonably REQUIRE you to live in the heart of a large city).
Re:National surveys are meaningless (Score:2)
Re:National surveys are meaningless (Score:3, Interesting)
Yet companies insist on getting downtown offices.
Yeah... I'm lucky there. My employer (IBM) has all but forced me to stay away from the office, and finally designated my home as my official work location. I could be annoyed about that, because they really don't pay for all of the stuff I need to work from home, but they do cover a good chunk of my high-speed Internet connection (which I would have anyway, obviously), plus they cover my business phone and a piece of my cellphone. All in all, though, I
Re:National surveys are meaningless (Score:3, Informative)
It's absolutely a cost-saving measure for them. A few years ago, IBM's Salt Lake City office filled a five-story building. By the time I joined the company in 1996, we had only the top floor. Shortly thereafter, the space was cut in half, then in half again, so that we now occupy 1/4 of one floor, and that space is only 11% utilized, so it won't surprise me if they reduce it yet again.
When Lou Gerstner took over IBM, the company had vast real estate assets. He sold nearly all of them off, and leased b
Re:National surveys are meaningless (Score:3, Informative)
Comment removed (Score:3, Informative)
Re:What does this accomplish? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What does this accomplish? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't mean this as a personal slam, but that exact attitude keeps salaries low. Why NOT talk about your salary? If you don't talk about it, you can't know how you compare. And although you might not care how you compare in a rat-race sense, you damned well should care that your employer treats you "fairly"...
Me, I make just a hair over $40k. Sound low, for someone with 10 years experience? In my area, I can afford a mortgage on that. And together with my SO, as a DINK couple, we do pretty damned well combined.
TALK about your salary! Don't brag about it, that just sounds obnoxious, but chat. Make sure that neither you nor your friends have gotten royally screwed.
I will never understand people who have this phobia of discussing how much they make. If you make something truly obscene (either minimum wage or seven figures), okay, you might have a reason to shy away from the topic - But within an order of magnitude of "average", help create a basis of comparison! It only hurts us, the workers, to remain tight-lipped about it.
Re:What does this accomplish? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:What does this accomplish? (Score:3, Interesting)
Raises in a corporate environment outside of promotions and the merit increases that usually come with that are nil, except for small increases that everyone gets
Counter-offer (and be worth it)! (Score:3, Insightful)
"Building this taboo around salaries is a nice psychological means of keeping wages as low as possible."
Exactly. Why should a company pay any more than you're willing to accept? They know that most tech types don't counter-offer. Women in particular seem to think it's rude, but I've noticed techs in general seem not to want to mess with it.
Several years ago a female friend of mine (Masters degree in CS) was excited about an offer she got from a Fortune 500 company. I told her she should counter-offer.
Re:What does this accomplish? (Score:3, Insightful)
"web developer" and "app developer" (Score:2, Informative)
Bah (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Bah (Score:2)
From the constant sitting and snacking, I presume?
Location ^3 (Score:3, Interesting)
I can never figure out what mine should be (Score:5, Interesting)
I have 25 users and 1 server. When trying to figure out what my salary should be, they never have an entry called "dumbass who takes a job as the entire IT dept."
Does anyone have any idea what someone like that should be making?
Re:I can never figure out what mine should be (Score:2)
Re:I can never figure out what mine should be (Score:2, Funny)
Remember, you've got the keys to the castle!
Threaten to lock them out if they deny your raises and benefits (Free beer!)
(+1, Funny, mods!)
Re:I can never figure out what mine should be (Score:2)
Just to fan a flame (Score:4, Insightful)
You are responsible for the design and implementation of the entire system, and yet you allow a huge, honking unreliable single point of failure that can bring the entire operation to its knees - you. That doesn't smack of good systems design to me.
Re:Just to fan a flame (Score:3, Informative)
"Why do you need another server? You already have one"
No, trying to explain it to them doesn't work. They care about the bottom line and won't change their tune until it bites them in the ass.
To help put in into perspective, I've actually been called in as a consultant just to work up some figures and plans for expanding IT departments because it carried more weight with the bea
Re:I can never figure out what mine should be (Score:5, Insightful)
On the other hand, if you are better-paid than average, it will be hard to find a better paying job.
One of the best bosses I ever had told me (among other people), "If you don't think you are being paid enough, look for another job that will pay you what you think you are worth. You will soon find out if you are right." I eventually took his advice, got another offer, and my employer countered.
And don't be shy about asking prospective employers for what you think you are worth. They won't hesitate to tell you if your expectations are out of line. If they say "OK" too quickly, you know you set your price too low.
In other words... (Score:5, Insightful)
I've heard the same thing from my last employer and while it's hard to disagree with such hard-nosed economic logic, I think it breaks down for a lot of IT jobs because IT jobs tend to be pretty fluid -- they often flow around the rigid HR-type job descriptions. Developers admin systems, admins doing programming, DBAs doing admin tasks AND programming, guys (like the grandparent poster) doing it all. Immersively intellectually challenging work that involves taking calls once a week about spyware and why the Intraweb is down? Or repetitive tasks, but never suffering end-luzers?
The "other job" that may pay me more may or may not include more job responsibilities, but I can almost guarandamtee you that the other job will not end up being the "same" job.
And then there's the whole question of "pay". How much are some bennies worth? How much is it worth to have a job with a ton of flexibility with start-end times vs. one with real rigid work hours? And if the former is a 60 minute gauntlet of traffic and the other is a 10 minute walk?
A boss who's a dick but makes sure to hire a lot of sharp people? A boss who's a saint but tolerates nincompoops? A closed door office vs. a low-wall cube in a farm? 8 days off you can take whenever vs. 3 weeks that requires D-Day logistics to be able to take a single day?
All of these things jumble together to make the "someone who pays more" concept so untestable that it's hard to measure.
Re:In other words... (Score:4, Insightful)
You're only worth as much as you're willing to walk away from.
If you're not willing to quit your job if they refuse to give you a raise then you won't get the raise.
Re:I can never figure out what mine should be (Score:5, Insightful)
A request to hire a second IT guy. You can't do everything reliably, even if you were paid to do everything.
Re:I can never figure out what mine should be (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Not sure, but I bet I make less than you (Score:3, Funny)
Not much (Score:2)
Raises (Score:2, Interesting)
I've since gone to school to get a piece of paper, while still working 1/2 time. I'm starting to feel a little underappreciated even though I'm usually given framework/syst
Re:Raises (Score:2)
He'll either boost your salary to 60K or tell you "good luck with your new job". Either way, you get the 60K.
Re:Raises (Score:2)
those questions have to be answered before you can even begin to think you make 'too much' or 'too little' for your experience.
In Portland, Or you should be able to make 70+K if you can network people. OTOH, in San francisoc 70+K is not even liveable w/o spend 4-6 hours a day on the road.
Quit. No, really. (Score:3, Informative)
Whoah, leave off that 'even though I'm in school' clause. As strange as it seems, the best deal these days is to quit and get a job somewhere else. Nobody seems to give raises anymore. (At least not worthy of note.)
Want a raise or propmotion? Quit. I have never got a raise while I have worked in IT of more than a buck an hour, yet I have nearly doubled my salary twice by just getting a new job. You would think that a company would
Cost of Living (Score:4, Insightful)
-me
Mean or Median (Score:2)
The median is generally accepted as being the more appropriate method to determine average income, but sometimes people use the mean to skew the figures for one reason or another.
Wait for the next rollover, then ask (Score:2, Interesting)
Lies, Damn Lies, and Salary Surveys (Score:4, Insightful)
Here's another hint: a survey requires people who answer surveys. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that people making on the high end do not generally go out of their way to answer salary surveys, whereas people paid average or less than average might be a bit prone to worrying about their salary and therefore filling out surveys and looking them up.
Want to make more money? Instead of asking what other people make, ask yourself:
* What can I do that other people (or most other people) can't? What makes me good? What's my strength? How can I be better?
* How much is what I'm doing worth? How can I use my skills to create a larger value for a company or client?
* How can I leverage my work to produce more?
* What have I done that has exceeded expectations, that could not have been predicted and is a boon for whoever pays me?
If you have already come up with good answers for the questions above, you're probably making way more than the average already.
Be in good financial shape. People living paycheck to paycheck hurt themselves because they end up afraid to take risks. Save up a large cushion of living expenses - while 4-6 months is a normal financial planner's estimate, make sure you can get an additional 12 month's worth by the time that 6 is up. With the 18 month cushion you can afford to try a lot of other things.
Finally, if you don't like what you're making, consider doing something else. A friend of mine is making over $20/hr plus benefits reading gas meters. If I was getting paid a lousy $50k to program, I'd have taken a job at his place and spent my day walking around outside. If you find yourself on the low rung, maybe this is just not what you're meant to be doing.
Well, here in Government... (Score:3, Interesting)
If you guys try for a government job, you have to start at the bottom (the 40's) but you work your way up fast, you've got great job security, and one day, you'll have a pension.
It's worth a little sacrifice, don't you think?
Re:Well, here in Government... (Score:3, Insightful)
I worked for the DoD as a summer job when I started college, and one of the consulting companies I worked for had a large number of government clients. I could never live with the amount of politics and beauracracy involved in a government job for any amount of money.
You are right about the benefits, though. Can't beat government work for good benefits, except maybe by joining the military. The fact that you don't seem to have to know anyth
The more important question... (Score:4, Interesting)
Whats the best way to ask for a raise? I know a good amount of people believe they are underpaid, and a decent number actually feel they are overpaid.
That said, for those who have actually asked and recieved: What is the best way to approach your boss and ask for a raise?
Bay Area, CA (Score:3, Informative)
Company was tight-fisted financial services company;
Job was developing apps in Python, either stand-alone or in Zope; Integration with various MS apps (this was a Windows-only shop);
I was attractive because I've done 14 years of experience in all things IT and was a jack-of-all-trades;
I got paid $75K to start, and was raised to $80K when I started managing three engineers and had my title changed from 'Software Engineer 2' to 'Senior Software Engineer'. I considered myself underpaid, and at my next job started at $93K. As both jobs came after about 4-6 months of unemployment, I didn't really negotiate salary too much
until you hit 50 (Score:5, Informative)
I was promoted and promoted, given many salary raises above and beyond, and many bonuses for work above and beyond. While I never asked for my six-figure salary, it was nice to have cuz I didn't have to worry much about financial woes.
Then a small company merged with ours, essentially swaggered in, a (allegedly) corrupt CEO (allegedly) cooked the books, or (allegedly) ordered them cooked, we went $35B in debt, our stock went from $54 to $2 (yes, 1/27th!), and the security unraveled.
No problem, that salary would come in handy now... until some British chick came in, one week on a conference call told us all to get approval before ordering office supplies and in a month or so we would look at our financial "situation".
Two weeks later 1/5 of us did the perp walk... Lost my job, lost the chance to finish the 3 years to full pension (after 21 years with this company). And, finally finding out not many companies want to interview someone that old, or making that much money... Doesn't matter what you've done, doesn't matter how good you are, if you can't even get the interview, salaries you made are only relevant in one way. Bitter? Yeah. Get over it? Yeah, but it's not easy.
A blessing in disguise, I'm now a completely independent software developer and stand to make more than I ever did working for d'man. But a lesson learned. Don't consider your salary in and of itself. Consider the ethics and environment of the company that may screw you (my sense is there aren't many out there anymore that won't.)
Web designer/web developer/network admin $30,000 (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm American so when I first got here I got a job teaching English. After 8 months of kids trying to stick their fingers up my ass (it's called "kancho") I decided to get back into design/lite programming/project management. Before I left the US in 2004 I was probably make about $50k/year living in the upper midwest. Pretty good dosh for the area and I was probably working an everage of 2-3 weeks a month.
So getting back to Tokyo, having pretty rough Japanese skills made it tough to find a job, but I finally found my current gig. Basically I'm the technology guy. My title is Director of Internet Development and project management. Sweet huh? Basically I'm making a dynamic catalogue site using PHP and Flash as well as setting up a server and internal network.
How much do I make? About the equivalent of $30,000 US. Basically I'm going into the local convient store at the end of the month with a bag full of 1¥ coins to buy some food. It sucks ass. This is pretty standard for my age, 28, in Japan though. It's assumed that since everyone lives with their parents they don't need to make as much money when they're younger. I got an interview next Monday though, so now that I can speak Japanese I expect to make a better salary.
My salay is already public (Score:3, Interesting)
I work for the government. Specifically, I work as a lead programmer writing Perl code for the federal courts case management software. I work in Washington, DC, and I have 13 years of professional experience. I make $117K, which is high compared to some of my coworkers, but not as high as a few. I think I'm worth it.
Some of the lowest paid people in my office are the consultants. Oh, the government pays a ton for them, but the consulting company keeps more than half of it. The consulting company has an exclusive contract with us. It's a complete scam, as former executives get lucrative salaries from this consulting company after they leave the government, and thus current executives want to keep the cash cow milking. Or maybe it's true with all consulting companies, but it's still frustrating to see one of our best programmers make $50K when we pay over $100K for him.
Money ain't everything, and times have changed (Score:4, Insightful)
When you work in tech for someone else, you are creatively constrained. You look for creative outlets any way you can, but ultimately, someone else is in control of your destiny. You can tell yourself; hey, the creative, fun stuff I'll do in my free time! Yeah, right; your free time should be with your family and friends, not sitting in front of a computer, just like at work. Or maybe you think: my creative outlet is at work! Yeah, right...
Maybe you're the programmer; cool, someone else gets to decide the architecture. Maybe you are the architect; cool, someone else gets to decide your budget. Maybe you're the CIO, cool, someone else affects the architecture, and someone else actually build the sh*t, and if they do a sh*tty job, you're hosed. Yes, you can't do it all. You need to work on teams to tackle big things. But do you really get to decide, in any way, what those big things are? Or are you just being told to dig a ditch at a certain place, to a certain depth and width and breadth?
If you want to be truly happy, let go of the need for the material crap and focus on taking control of your own creative direction. WORK FOR LESS MONEY but take a greater stake in what you are doing. Freelance. Work on a small team. Work part time and free up time to follow your creative bliss. Or just live off the spouse for awhile. It's ok; 50 years ago it was *normal* for someone to stay at home.
Be proactive and choose who and what you rely on, keep things lean and mean, and INVENT; CREATE. Work hands-on at creating.
Remember this: in 20 years, when you look back, will you think "gosh, I'm glad I had a house with 2 more bedrooms, that extra car, those weekends at the cabin. I'm glad I had that extra TV in the bedroom, and took that trip to Florida every year!" Or will you think, "I made some cool stuff. We lived OK. I followed my dream."
If you're reading this, you're probably in tech. That means you're likely getting paid twice as much as everyone else anyways, simply because tech is still a valued commodity, no matter what the outsourcers or people stuck in dot-com-lala-land say. WORK HALF AS MUCH, and invest that extra time into an open source project that you care about... your karma will thank you.
I make $83,000 + stock options and work 40 hours (Score:3, Informative)
I've got the best of both worlds... (Score:3, Insightful)
I should hit $100k this year, and I only have to work about 3hours a day to make it work. I spend tons of time with my son, wife, and get to do all the home improvement projects I want. Take it from me, break the chains and go work for yourself. Getting "laid-off" was the best promotion I ever got.
-Goran
Surviving in Germany (Score:4, Interesting)
I choose to go freelance two years ago. As, amongst other things, a web developer, with a thourough focus on OSS. Which is a growing market and closing in on critical mass here in germany. Everybody (and I mean everybody ) and his brother is using Typo3, people consider Linux as an alternative and demand for OSS consulting is growing. My partners are in with pharmaceutical corporations - which, naturally, have licences to print money. I'm building myself a reputation and even have a small business contract with a small agency in Florida im doing CRM for.
I'm flying under the radar, earning barely over minimum wage, making any comparion with those popular 'yellow press' salary lists utterly pointless. But I have liberties fulltime jobbers can only dream of and don't have to fuss around with superiours who don't take me for granted. I've learned to trust no one but myself (learned the hard way) and feel fairly safe even though I've currently got zero finacial backup and the german federal pension will be a joke when I'm old.
IT is growing with 5% aprox. and OSS is growing a little faster. I can bill aprox. 60$ an hour and have 2-3 hours a day that I can bill. It just covers my expenses. The upside being that I can spend a notable portion of my time at my favourite lounge sipping Latte and studying O'Reillys. In a nice indian summer these days. Oh, and, btw, how was your work day, my fellow slashdotter? *wide grin*
The downside being the tax Uber-paperwork, which is beyond insane in Germany.
Bottom line: I don't earn very much, but I'm surviving on my own. Which means I can't complain. If I keep on track and gain in efficiency (my main focus at the time) I might even have a small company with a handfull of employees some day. Who knows...
No, your English proves (OT, sorry) (Score:3, Funny)
$6.50/hr for SQL/MYSQL DB Developer (Score:3, Funny)
Here is the ad:
http://denver.craigslist.org/eng/89900924.html [craigslist.org]
Don't everybody apply at once.
Changing Jobs Helps... (Score:3, Informative)
Most of the jobs I have had have not allowed me to develop my skills, and have them recognised by the company with more cash. The job position is still "Developer", or "Programmer", and has a fairly fixes sallery for that postition.
As I developed my skill set I had to go to another comnany and join as an "Architect", or "Systems Programmer", each time getting a nice raise.
Some companies will allow you to progress quickly, stay with hands-on fun stuff, and get rewarded for it. Some just want 5 "Programmers", and if you leave, they get another. If they give you the extra 5k you diserve, the other 4 guys will start bitching, why would they want to do that?
End of the day, it's supply and demand, if you want to make more money, build up your skill set, talk to your boss, if you dont get what you want, get another job.
The worst thing you can do is sit on your butt reading slashdot, complaining, getting demotivated, and not focussing on developing your skill set.
Depends on how you count it (Score:3, Interesting)
If you take into account how often people in the tech industry get laid off, spend a couple months in transition getting unemployment before their new jobs -- then maybe the numbers more correctly line up.
Standardized titles? (Score:3, Funny)
36K for IT (Score:3, Interesting)
Eventualy, I got myself in at a mortgage company in orange county, ca. Officialy, I'm "the IT guy" but I'm also developing a web based software (PHP - MySql) which they use (but I have the rights to it). For this they pay me just $36K. I know I could probably get a straight programming job elsewhere for more $ (after years, not since the dot com boom, I am getting calls for job offers).
But, I stay, because my boss is flexible with my hours. I can take wednesday mornings off with my new baby, leave early whenever I need to, etc.
And I can work on my web based software which I am leasing to other mortgage companies (so far, this is netting me another $9k/yr, and that's just one client leasing monthly).
There's something to be said for making less $ but getting flexibility to work on other things. With any luck, in a year, I will be making 10x what I make now..
PS. anybody with some knowledge of the mortgage business and who is a good salesman, in the orange county ca area who wants to make a monthly residual on a software lease, feel free to contact me. We need salesmen and trainers for our software. Or if you are a mortgage company, check out our lead management software. Shameless plug! http://www.imlts.com/ [imlts.com]
Counting unemployment (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:how much am I payed? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:how much am I payed? (Score:5, Informative)
Find your city, find your occupation.
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oessrcma.htm [bls.gov]
Applicable Occupations:
15-1021 Computer Programmers
15-1031 Computer Software Engineers, Applications
15-1032 Computer Software Engineers, Systems Software
15-1041 Computer Support Specialists
15-1051 Computer Systems Analysts
15-1061 Database Administrators
15-1071 Network and Computer Systems Administrators
15-1081 Network Systems and Data Communications Analysts
Re:how much am I payed? (Score:5, Funny)
Sure, everyone knows what you mean, but in this world you can't just be competent, you have to be seen to be competent.
Re:how much am I payed? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:how much am I payed? (Score:3, Insightful)
#!/usr/bin/env perl
Re:how much am I payed? (Score:3, Informative)
Peace
Re:how much am I payed? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Short answer (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Short answer (Score:4, Interesting)
The last 10%, the unexpected cross/head winds, the emergencies, obstacles on the runway, mechanical problems with the plane... then having the best means the difference between walking away vs being carried off on a stretcher.
There's no way to know, in advance, which flights are going to be absolutely routine and boring and which ones will have cause for excitement. Hence, two pilots on every plane.
Re:Short answer (Score:3, Funny)
Re:well... fuck. (Score:5, Insightful)
That is the attitude of a Computer Science student or recent grad.
Look at any company. Find where the money comes into that company. See how close or far your position is to that money entering the company. That determines your salary right there.
A company doesn't mind paying salespeople (who perform well) plenty of money because it is clear what they are worth. They are bringing in the money that keeps the company alive.
MBAs are closer to the money. They are in a "profit-center" of their companies.
The programmers are pretty far from the money. In most companies they are in a "cost-center", ie: they are a cost that the company grudgingly pays as a cost of doing business. They would be eager to lower that cost.
At one place I worked a few years ago there were programmers who worked in the "back office" servicing the company-wide infrastructure and there were programmers who working directly for a "front office" department, ie: closer to where the money is made. I worked for a front-office department and made $120K for doing the exact same thing programmers in the back office were paid $60K to do.
Just follow the money...
Your point is well made... (Score:3, Insightful)
You must do a lotta coke, pal... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I'm in a similar position (Score:3, Interesting)
The only time I've ever got more than a 2% raise is the twice I've switched jobs. Once because my contract was up and the second time for location (from Toronto to Hamilton... closer to home). I highly recommend looking for a new job so at least you can what your market value is. Since you're not desperate to change jobs you can look closer to home if your commute sucks like mine did. Get monst
Re:EA starting salary for software engineer (Score:3, Funny)
From what I hear from people who've accepted jobs as software engineers at EA here in Vancouver,
You had me at EA. Seriously, EA does that everywhere.