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Oracle To Buy Siebel

Zonk posted about 9 years ago | from the busy-week dept.

Databases 233

jondaw writes "The BBC is reporting that "Software giant Oracle is buying US rival Siebel Systems in a deal worth $5.85bn (£3.2bn) in cash and stock...'In a single step, Oracle becomes the number one CRM [customer relationship management] applications company in the world,' said Oracle chief executive Larry Ellison.""

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yay dotcom bubble (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13538799)

Everybody's buying everybody again! Woo!

When do I get my office scooter?

Another dotcom bubble? (2, Funny)

RealisticCanadian (850967) | about 9 years ago | (#13539066)


Should I start hoarding supplies for the next crash?



Hmmm... welcome to Slashzonk; all Zonk all the time. (What, 13 articles in a row? and no screwups? they musta upped his caffeine dosage) 8^p

Oracle (3, Insightful)

DavidLeeRoth (865433) | about 9 years ago | (#13538803)

I might be mistaken but, isn't Oracle a US company? The story makes it seem like Oracle isn't.

Re:Oracle (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13538828)

I thought it was greek.

Re:Oracle (0, Offtopic)

VolciMaster (821873) | about 9 years ago | (#13538854)

it was reported in the BBC...

Re:Oracle (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13539128)

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see anything in the article that would give someone that impressions, with the exception of converting the value of the deal into pounds. Remember that this is a UK news source reporting on the deal, so converting into a currency their readers are used to dealing with is fair (and expected).

Re:Oracle (3, Insightful)

fm6 (162816) | about 9 years ago | (#13539227)

Why? Because they referred to Siebel as a U.S. company, but didn't specify that Oracle was? That's natural for a British news source -- their local readers may not have heard of Siebel, but have certainly heard of Oracle, which does a lot of business in Europe.

Re:Oracle (2, Informative)

angle_slam (623817) | about 9 years ago | (#13539295)

Yep, both companies are headquartered in San Mateo County, California. They are two exits [yahoo.com] away from each other on the 101.

The Largest... What next? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13538806)

How long more before they become the _only_ one?

Re:The Largest... What next? (1)

VikingDBA (446387) | about 9 years ago | (#13538870)

Only one? I doubt they will ever buy Microsoft. Will it come down to a two player game? I could see that.

Re:The Largest... What next? (1)

rleibman (622895) | about 9 years ago | (#13538968)

There can be only one!

Re:The Largest... What next? (1)

EmperorKagato (689705) | about 9 years ago | (#13539097)

End Game.

Re:The Largest... What next? (1)

heck (609097) | about 9 years ago | (#13539143)


Will it come down to a two player game?


Three.


IBM has DB2. I don't see IBM deciding not to sell DB2.


Unless you mean MicroSoft is going to leave the market.


And please don't say "DB2! No one uses DB2!" Those of us who deal with large businesses will just shake our heads.


Because I was curious, I did a search for CRM with DB2 as the back end. There are business cases out there for using DB2 with PeopleSoft. I suspect the current owners of PeopleSoft don't encourage that.

Re:The Largest... What next? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13539229)

The tic-tac-toe game will determine that neither side can win. After that, they will shutdown.

Re:The Largest... What next? (1)

U1timateZer0 (855425) | about 9 years ago | (#13539125)

Having used Siebel and another CRM called Helix when working for Gateway Computers (Outsourced to Alorica, Inc.), I can only say: it's about damn time. Siebel was the most worthless piece of shit ever created. If Helix were more widely adopted, the world would be a better place for humanity.

Senator Frist and Wash Post announce collaboration (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13538815)

Frist Post

In other news... (5, Funny)

COBOL/MVS (196516) | about 9 years ago | (#13538823)

To compliment his German accent, Larry Ellison has also donned a monical and top hat and is now carrying a cane with a silver cobra head on it and was last seen wearing a black flowing cape. He was quoted as saying: "I'm just trying to look the part of evil genius now".

Re:In other news... (1)

Directrix1 (157787) | about 9 years ago | (#13538864)

Best Quote Ever from the Article:
The takeover by Oracle had long been predicted by analysts.

To further compliment the look... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13538966)

Larry has commissioned a team of military historians to paint his jets in a Third Reich wartime pattern. His call to acquire a working Stuka is ongoing.

Re:In other news... (1)

CDMA_Demo (841347) | about 9 years ago | (#13539100)


To compliment his German accent,

Now where are the language lawyers of slashdot?

How much did he pay (1)

hellfire (86129) | about 9 years ago | (#13539218)

Does this mean Larry only purchased Siebel for......

One Meellion Dollars!!!> (dramatic music)

What a steal!

Re:How much did he pay (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13539393)

He paid it in Deustch Marks converted to US Dollars from a Swiss Bank account.

In other news...Instruction Manual. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13539381)

"He was quoted as saying: "I'm just trying to look the part of evil genius now"."

Just follow the manual [amazon.com]

CRM [ ] (0, Redundant)

stecoop (759508) | about 9 years ago | (#13538848)

My only question is that stuff in the brackets after CRM (c u s t o m e r...? What's going on here, the first time I know one of those buzz words and the editors have to blow all my fun. I was going to laugh at people that aren't in the click that they don't know that single piece terminology and look far superior in one mighty stroke.

Re:CRM [ ] (1)

op12 (830015) | about 9 years ago | (#13538892)

I was going to laugh at people that aren't in the click that they don't know that single piece terminology and look far superior in one mighty stroke.

...or looked equally inferior [answers.com] :)

Re:CRM [ ] (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13538893)

I think you meant "clique".

Sorry to be all superior.

Re:CRM [ ] (1)

jimcooncat (605197) | about 9 years ago | (#13538894)

...laugh at people that aren't in the click...

So you're not in the clique [wiktionary.org] either?

Re:CRM [ ] (5, Insightful)

plover (150551) | about 9 years ago | (#13539104)

Don't get your hopes up at knowing what the acronym really means. Siebel is to "Customer Relationship Management" exactly as much as Microsoft is to "Secure Systems Initiative." Neither title has anything to do with reality, but rather how they're perceived by the Gartner Group.

When they were still in business, AT&T Wireless used to use Siebel CRM in their phone stores. They did everything in their power to lose all the customers they could. A one hour wait and two hours with a cashier to sell me three phones, all spent waiting for the cashier to click, drag, type, badger and bully my information into that worthless CRM system. Servers that took minutes to deliver the pages needed. And it wasn't the fault of the poor schmucks who worked at the store. Just imagine trying to do your job on a site that was being permanently slashdotted -- that's what I saw of Siebel CRM, every time I went in there.

And now Larry is sticking them in his cap like a feather. Well, good for them. I'm sure the Gartner Group is pleased as punch.

Acquisitions (2, Interesting)

mysqlrocks (783488) | about 9 years ago | (#13538852)

First PeopleSoft, now Siebel. What's next for Oracle?

Re:Acquisitions (2, Funny)

$RANDOMLUSER (804576) | about 9 years ago | (#13539070)

Same thing we do every night Pinky, plan to take over the world!

Google (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13539338)

You heard it here first.

Monopoly A Game Of Life w/ Shoots and Ladders (4, Funny)

Cylix (55374) | about 9 years ago | (#13538857)

Sure, our product hasn't been that good, but don't worry in no time at all you won't have any choice. We've been fattening our wallets to make sure you don't have any complicated decisions ahead of you.

Why is this a trend I continue to see in Oracle?

I'll probably get flamed by the Oracle is holier then thou crowd, but that's life.

Where did I leave my ladders at...

Re:Monopoly A Game Of Life w/ Shoots and Ladders (1)

CDMA_Demo (841347) | about 9 years ago | (#13538950)


There may be laws to prevent this kind of behavior: for example non-"consumed" rivals might approach the DoJ with an anti-trust plea. But as Netscape vs. M$ has proved, the 800 pound gorilla wins in the long run. Winning matters, noone cares how you won. This is the side-effect of capitalism. I think U.S. really needs to revise its policies. Do you think a $5 million company needs to pay the same amount of sales tax as a $5 billion company for the same amount of sales? I don't know much about U.S. economy or business laws, but the government seriously needs to find ways to help smaller companies flourish in the face of competition from big predators.

Re:Monopoly A Game Of Life w/ Shoots and Ladders (1)

sdirrim (909976) | about 9 years ago | (#13539368)

Agreed. My dad has worked for about 8 different companies, each gatting swallowed by another.
Mobius
got eaten by ?
which got eaten by ?
which got eaten by a Sybase spin-off
which got eaten by Scotch Bonnet
which got eaten by Vantive
which got eaten by Peoplesoft
which got eaten by Oracle, the "Evil Empire".
I forsee the makings of a mini-Microsoft.

How does this benefit customers? (3, Interesting)

juanescalante (848065) | about 9 years ago | (#13538879)

Oracle said the deal had the approval of the Siebel board and that the takeover was expected to be completed in 2006, subject to regulatory approval.
It also said that the customers of both firms had long called for them to come together.
Why would this benefit their customers?

Re:How does this benefit customers? (3, Interesting)

sloanster (213766) | about 9 years ago | (#13538939)

Oh, I dunno... maybe finally, some semblance of linux support for siebel apps?

Re:How does this benefit customers? (2, Interesting)

mroch (715318) | about 9 years ago | (#13538940)

It's the same as Microsoft's "we have to package IE with Windows" argument.

This [bloomberg.com] article has more details. Basically, customers only want to deal with one "suite," but Oracle and Siebel do slightly different stuff.

Re:How does this benefit customers? (4, Insightful)

ideonode (163753) | about 9 years ago | (#13539136)

I agree. I think Oracle can really position themselves as a market leader in the enterprise space, leaving only SAP as the main rival.

Oracle are in a position to provide a full-blown OSS/BSS stack (once they finally ship their billing system product). If they can bring the integration between the various apps in their business stack in-house, they get that close coupling (which may be a few years off, admittedly), then they can truly offer a Telco-in-a-Box solution, covering CRM, Billing, Payments and industry-standard hooks to third-parties. This All-in-One shop can be repeated for the other industry verticals that Siebel are traditionally strong in (Energy and Utilities, Financial Services etc).

To be honest, the people who should be worried are third-party systems integrators. Once Oracle provide a single-shop BSS/OSS solution, then a large chunk of integration income will disappear.

Re:How does this benefit customers? (1)

GreyPoopon (411036) | about 9 years ago | (#13538962)

Why would this benefit their customers?

It will basically get rid of the last reason for not switching to SAP. Indecision can be very exhausting. ;)

Re:How does this benefit customers? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13539076)

It removes all that bother about competition and stuff. When you only have one choice, it becomes a very easy one to make!

Siebel problems (5, Interesting)

Zen (8377) | about 9 years ago | (#13538895)

Well, I don't know about the rest of you, but I've been on a two week long troubleshoot call for Siebel problems, and today starts the third week. 8-12 hours a day, 100's of different _sets_ of sniffer traces, and no solution. The problem is in the application, not on the network. I am not familiar with Oracle's technical support, but it can't be worse than Siebel's, so I'm looking forward to this.

Re:Siebel problems (5, Interesting)

CptMatt (644683) | about 9 years ago | (#13538910)

Oracle's support for mundane problems is as bad or worse than everyone else. However, on critical problems they are far better than most.

Re:Siebel problems (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13538922)

That's because Siebel is a piece of shit. Find whatever moron is responsible for purchasing it and throw a boiling pot in his face.

Re:Siebel problems (1)

Zen (8377) | about 9 years ago | (#13538978)

Yeah, I'd love to. We rolled it out 3 years ago or so, and had major problems with it. We spent millions of bucks (this is not a small company I'm talking about here) and completely revamped the design a year ago. One of the reasons was that we were using AIX servers, and Siebel told us that almost all of their customers used Windows, so most of their patch testing was on the windows version. Now we have yet another problem. The darn thing was rolled out as an edict from one of the executive VP's - we have no choice but to fight through all of it's problems.

Re:Siebel problems (1)

CSHARP123 (904951) | about 9 years ago | (#13538954)

I am not familiar with Oracle's technical support, but it can't be worse than Siebel's, so I'm looking forward to this.
Why do you think the siebel support people will be let go? People who are supporting today will be supporting tomorrow too. May be some get axed but not all.

Re:Siebel problems (1)

Zen (8377) | about 9 years ago | (#13539164)

The people themselves seem pretty smart. My problem is management accountability. It took us forever just to get them to commit and have people on the conference calls with us, and now they're telling us that they'll give us 24 hour turnaround on our sniffer traces and server logs. The problem is that their management lets them get away with that, while we (the customer) suffer through another day of 60% uptime waiting on Siebel to give us some patch or parameter change.

Re:Siebel problems (1, Offtopic)

evilgrin (128415) | about 9 years ago | (#13538957)

What industry do you work for? I've also been on a several week troubleshoot that is driving me insane.

Re:Siebel problems (1)

Zen (8377) | about 9 years ago | (#13539181)

Yeah, that's cuz we're in the same department. Small world :p

Anyway, for the rest of you, it's healthcare insurance if you're interested.

Re:Siebel problems (2, Insightful)

frank_adrian314159 (469671) | about 9 years ago | (#13539041)

I am not familiar with Oracle's technical support, but it can't be worse than Siebel's, ...

Oh you naive fool!

... so I'm looking forward to this.

Wait a couple weeks - you won't be anymore.

Has the parent post been modded funny yet?

Re:Siebel problems (1)

siggy_lxvi (910738) | about 9 years ago | (#13539073)

Just from working with Seibel's front end every day, this doesn't surprise me. The thing will just randomly pop up nonsensical error messages, and the only option is to log out and log back in.

Re:Siebel problems (1)

aquatone282 (905179) | about 9 years ago | (#13539308)

I've never worked with Siebel, but if their customer support is worse than Oracle's then you have my utmost sympathy.

No competion (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13538896)

This is bad, it was already bad when Oracle bought Peoplesoft. The competion stops...

Oracle & Siebel: Match Made in Hell (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13538897)

Oracle and Siebel are a perfect match for each other. Both companies use a bell-curve performance review: 10% of employees are guaranteed to be fired each year.

Next, Oracle should buy Yahoo!. It too has a ruthless approach to life. Just yesterday, Jerry Yang (the co-founder of Yahoo!) applauded his company's effort in assisting Chinese authorities to jail and torture a reporter for revealing "state secrets". The reporter was sentenced to 10 years in prison.

Decision Made Simple (5, Funny)

CSHARP123 (904951) | about 9 years ago | (#13538909)

We made decision making process easier for you. You either buy oracle or you buy oracle.

Re:Decision Made Simple (1)

afidel (530433) | about 9 years ago | (#13539247)

Or Salesforce.com or SAP....

Re:Decision Made Simple (0, Offtopic)

otisg (92803) | about 9 years ago | (#13539442)

I'm a very happy PostgreSQL user - see the sig.

Oracle buys Siebel - visualizing the buzz (4, Informative)

otisg (92803) | about 9 years ago | (#13538911)

Today is a big shopping day, and when that happens I love watching the buzz spread. Here are some graphs that show the spreading:
- eBay AND Skype [blogpulse.com]
- Oracle AND Siebel [blogpulse.com] .
- the above graphs combined [blogpulse.com] .

Re:Oracle buys Siebel - visualizing the buzz (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13539145)

Try "bored AND at work." That's quite popular among blogs.

Not Dead Yet. (4, Interesting)

Short Circuit (52384) | about 9 years ago | (#13538949)

Oracle bought PeopleSoft a while back, and I haven't yet heard of any resultant headaches at the college I attend and work at. (PeopleSoft+Oracle setup.)

But that may be because of those coupons PeopleSoft issued while trying to avoid the buyout; they gauranteed the same level of support for some period of time I don't recall. It sounds like Siebel is going willingly, so I doubt their customers will get the same protection.

Re:Not Dead Yet. (4, Interesting)

lucabrasi999 (585141) | about 9 years ago | (#13539220)

When Oracle first announced the hostile attempt at PeopleSoft, Larry put his foot in his mouth by announcing that he would stop all future PeopleSoft development and he would make all PeopleSoft customers switch to Oracle. When you consider how much money customers have spent on the ERP systems, you can understand why most PeopleSoft customers were initially frightened of the Oracle buy-out. No customer in their right mind would want to be forced into an unplanned for migration to Oracle apps./p>

When Oracle finally completed the deal, they announced that not only would they continue to support PeopleSoft, but they would release a new version (in about three years) that would allow for a direct upgrade from PeopleSoft to a combined Oracle/PeopleSoft product. In other words, Larry learned that the customer is always right.

I seriously doubt that Larry will suddenly 'pull the support plug' on Siebel customers. Chances are rather high he will do the same thing with Siebel that he plans to do with PeopleSoft. Continue to provide support for a few years while developing an upgrade path that will allow Siebel users the chance to move to a future Oracle CRM product.

Re:Not Dead Yet. (1)

bigmaddog (184845) | about 9 years ago | (#13539434)

There's an incorrect assumption being made here in how the world revolves, which is that the really large software companies are the shit. Bill Gates may wipe his ass with greenbacks because of the high opportunity cost of reaching for tp given the value of his time, but he does not get to tell everyone what to do. Yeah, he's arguably pushing around the mom&pops out there, the mainstream private computer users, with whatever MS thinks is best, but there are plenty of large, powerful corporations out there with a finite threshhold for taking bullshit from others who are, regardless of size, still their vendors. They may not be able to tell Oracle or MS of whoever what to do, but they certainly can't be ignored or have their needs pissed away. Or something like that.

More Job Cuts? (0)

EggMan2000 (308859) | about 9 years ago | (#13538952)

Job Cuts?



The company may fire as many workers as it did after the PeopleSoft purchase, when Oracle cut 5,000 jobs, said Andrew Brosseau, an analyst at SG Cowen Securities Corp. in Boston.


SHIT!



``Oracle is buying a more complete product portfolio from a company that's been failing to execute,'' Brosseau said. The firm doesn't have ratings on either company. ``They are getting a good asset in terms of the product line and customers.''

Invest in Your Customers (0)

Doc Ruby (173196) | about 9 years ago | (#13538963)

Why doesn't Larry just buy all the database app customers in the world? At $100K a head, $20B would buy 200K customers. That would leave the customer corporations from which he cherry-picked them dependent on Oracle to do all their DB app business.

Re:Invest in Your Customers (1)

MrAnnoyanceToYou (654053) | about 9 years ago | (#13539063)

That's exactly what they are doing, but it seems corporate database customers cost more than 100k apiece.

i don't understand (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13538995)

what siebel sells, anyone can explain in simple words which is their product, or a simple example of use.

Re:i don't understand (4, Funny)

$RANDOMLUSER (804576) | about 9 years ago | (#13539155)

Siebel sells best-of-breed soutions to snyergysticly leverage your existing best-practices methedologies into world-class feature-rich infrastructure enhancements with significantly accelerated ROI.

Or somethng like that.

Re:i don't understand (1)

Zen (8377) | about 9 years ago | (#13539263)

Are you my VP? I swear, he couldn't come up with a better BS one liner than that.

Re:i don't understand (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13539180)

They sell software that runs on computers.

Re:i don't understand (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13539234)

For suitably small subsets of "runs".

Re:i don't understand (2, Funny)

tekboy25 (910684) | about 9 years ago | (#13539375)

eHas eAnyone eEver eRead eSiebel eSales eLiterature?

Oh dear (3, Funny)

gunpowda (825571) | about 9 years ago | (#13538999)

Is anyone else struck by the suggestiveness of the extended metaphor on this [vnunet.com] other news site reporting on the story?

"Siebel has needed to be picked up for some time. There are other suitors that would probably have made better sense, but it seems that Oracle is going for the number one slot no matter what the cost and aiming to become the only boy on the CRM block..."

Ellison (4, Funny)

SuperBanana (662181) | about 9 years ago | (#13539018)

In a single step, Oracle becomes the number one CRM [customer relationship management] applications company in the world,' said Oracle chief executive Larry Ellison."

..."then Oracle Chief Executive Ellison brandished his katana and with a scream, cut the CEO of Siebel in half"

Re:Ellison (2, Funny)

KingEomer (795285) | about 9 years ago | (#13539416)

Now the question is: Would Steve Ballmer, with his Executive Chair, beat the katana-wielding Larry Ellison?

Oracle is in the database business (3, Informative)

crovira (10242) | about 9 years ago | (#13539031)

These acquisitions insure that their database business doesn't suffer by suddenly NOT being offered (unlikely but always a possibility [and if I was selling DB/2, I'd worry,]) or that some NEW database engine gets a foot hold in the marketplace (more likely.)

We're seeing the death of competition in the database market.

It shows the health of the market (1)

tentimestwenty (693290) | about 9 years ago | (#13539193)

Acquisitions like this generally mean that competition is already dead and also usually, that the market has reached capacity. The bigger company sees it as more cost effective to just buy the customers of the other instead of trying to innovate and steal them. Especially in the case where there are no more customers to make, a company HAS to begin buying out competitors.

Re:It shows the health of the market (1)

fm6 (162816) | about 9 years ago | (#13539283)

You mean if the market can't grow any more, there can't be competition? That's nonsense. The economy's full of markets that aren't growing, but have lots of people competing for a fixed amount of business. But when you have deep pockets, the easiest way to grow is to destroy or buy out your competitors -- and that is what kills competition. If we still had an real anti-trust enforcement, it just wouldn't be allowed.

Re:It shows the health of the market (1)

tentimestwenty (693290) | about 9 years ago | (#13539378)

I take your point, but the reality is that most markets come to be dominated by 1 player which is so large that it stifles all competition. That's just the way unbridled capitalism works. There are exceptions of course, especially in high tech where the barriers to entry are lesser and your success can rely on innovation more. I'm with you though, there should be safeguards to encourage if not outright require at least 2 main players in every market to keep competition alive and give choice to the consumer.

So? (2, Funny)

canfirman (697952) | about 9 years ago | (#13539054)

I'll be impressed when Oracle comes out with an announcement that it's buying MicroSoft.

Then I'll be impressed.

Re:So? (1)

krgallagher (743575) | about 9 years ago | (#13539190)

" I'll be impressed when Oracle comes out with an announcement that it's buying MicroSoft."

The only reason Oracle would buy Microsoft is to dismantle it.

Re:So? (1)

rlp (11898) | about 9 years ago | (#13539306)

>> " I'll be impressed when Oracle comes out with an announcement that it's buying MicroSoft."

>The only reason Oracle would buy Microsoft is to dismantle it.

I'd be impressed by that!

I'm curious ... (2, Interesting)

scint (555735) | about 9 years ago | (#13539093)

as to what this means for IBM and their service based model. Does the concentration of big ticket erp system portend an end for db2?

IBM and Microsoft Impacts (1)

BBCWatcher (900486) | about 9 years ago | (#13539358)

Re: DB2, no, in a word. Most CRM software (by far) is in-house developed, and much of that is DB2-based. And there's a not-so-small CRM company by the name of SAP which will sell a lot more if Siebel did anything to mess with DB2 support. (SAP is already salivating, I'd bet.) And there's that DB2 z/OS product where huge amounts of enterprise data are kept. Oracle z/OS blows chunks (though their zSeries Linux product is good). If you don't support DB2 z/OS you're screwed in just about any enterprise environment. And IBM will happily sell you hardware and services regardless.

Actually, IBM does fine, but the big loser is probably Microsoft. Oracle believes in both Linux and J2EE, two concepts that are not Microsoft's. Siebel had previously announced they'd support both .NET and J2EE in their next big version. The .NET version is bound to disappear completely now. Siebel also announced that they'd support WebSphere Application Server as their J2EE runtime of choice. I think that'll continue -- it's hard to be enterprise J2EE without supporting the #1 runtime -- but I suspect Oracle will also allow using Oracle's own J2EE runtime as an alternative. Siebel also promised they'd move away from their Internet Explorer-only user interface. They've already started to do that, but you can bet Oracle will continue that trend and make sure that Siebel works great with Firefox, et. al.

Re:I'm curious ... (1)

lucabrasi999 (585141) | about 9 years ago | (#13539397)

Does the concentration of big ticket erp system portend an end for db2?

No. Databases are used for more than just ERP systems.

And, in the ERP world, SAP still supports DB2. For that matter, if you are a long-time PeopleSoft customer that was using DB2 as your database, Oracle/PeopleSoft still provides you with support. So far, Larry is not making his customers migrate to Oracle databases.

Both make consultingware (4, Interesting)

MarkEst1973 (769601) | about 9 years ago | (#13539112)

Both companies make products that are HUGE! So big that they require fulltime administrators and/or consultants.

My question is: Who actually needs all this bloat? There are much simpler ways of implementing a solution that would work while saving on the license fees and consultants.

I work for a government contracting shop in Northern VA. We're living high on the government hog, and one of our clients wanted to implement Documentum. This product is so big, they've created entirely separate applications (each measuring many megs in size) just to install and configure the application. As a programmer, I am frustrated trying to maintain this. Why can't it Just Work(tm) when you drop a WAR file into the /webapps directory (Documentum is java-based, and their webtop application's WAR is 128mb).

Consultingware is a phenomenon that I just don't understand. Our client has no need for 90% of Documentum's functionality. They just wanted to share files on the web. They've spent millions on servers, licenses, and consultants (including my company) to install and maintain it. I could have written something much smaller that fit their needs, and saved them most of their money.

I don't know, maybe this is just a gripe. But when something feature-rich like PostgreSQL is available and you're hiring talented coders to maintain a HUGE application instead of writing a very small and lean one... well, I just don't get it.

Every line is code comes with a price tag. The less code the better. The smaller and simpler solution the better. Less is more. This is important when you're trying to keep costs low and compete in a competitive marketplace, which I suppose is not happening with a gov't client or a big honking corporation.

But I don't expect everyone (anyone?) to agree with me.

Re:Both make consultingware (1)

js3 (319268) | about 9 years ago | (#13539208)

several reasons. when it breaks it's not because they cheapened out and there is someone to yell at and demand an overnight fix at their whim.

Re:Both make consultingware (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13539249)


My question is: Who actually needs all this bloat? There are much simpler ways of implementing a solution that would work while saving on the license fees and consultants.

I work for a government contracting shop in Northern VA. We're living high on the government hog, and one of our clients wanted to implement Documentum. This product is so big, they've created entirely separate applications (each measuring many megs in size) just to install and configure the application. As a programmer, I am frustrated trying to maintain this. Why can't it Just Work(tm) when you drop a WAR file into the /webapps directory (Documentum is java-based, and their webtop application's WAR is 128mb).


Its the PHBs, they cant resist buying large expensive frameworks, they think that because it costs money it will save employee time/numbers. That is why employees use MS WORD when Wordpad or open office would do. It scales up aswell to things like Oracle. Some products aren't just expensive they actually *slow down* development AND produce poor buggy solutions aswell as costing money (e.g Broadvision).
It costs money - it must be good!

Re:Both make consultingware (1)

miketo (461816) | about 9 years ago | (#13539301)

No, I don't think you're griping. I used to work for two different companies, each of which trumpeted its ability to build "connectors" for Siebel. But Siebel's server-side and desktop components were so big, the APIs so convoluted, and the performance so bad, that both companies (rather than being "Siebel Consultants") always brought in Siebel wonks to develop the interfaces. We knew it was so bad, that we -- for once -- made a smart decision and kept away from the integration aspect.

I also got tired of Siebel's attitude (courtesy of HRH Tom) that nobody else either "got it" or "understood customers" according to the Siebel Way(tm) of doing things. I had yet to find a customer whose requirements weren't thoroughly bollixed up after an encounter with Siebel.

Oracle is going to have its hands full phasing out Siebel in favor of its own dog food.

Tom Siebel (2, Interesting)

kevin_conaway (585204) | about 9 years ago | (#13539114)

Interesting enough, Tom Siebel [wikipedia.org] , the founder of Siebel, was once an ex-Oracle exec. I believe he left under less than pleasant terms.

Re:Tom Siebel (2, Informative)

bigmaddog (184845) | about 9 years ago | (#13539228)

An amusing anecdote:

I worked at Siebel a long time ago, briefly. I am not aware of the details of what went down between Tom Siebel and Oracle, but he didn't like them very much and this was common knowledge. So, we had a some sort of company-wide meeting, where the execs orated at length about various things I no longer remember. This was webcast to all the remote offices, so we got to watch. At one point, while discussing the goals of Siebel for the next little while, Tom muttered, half under his breath, that they hope to complete the transition from an Oracle to DB2 as soon as possible. This wasn't meant to be funny but the entire auditorium (a few hundred people at least) howled. Truly, a high point in any meeting. He looked rather unhappy.

Number one CRM company? (3, Insightful)

jayloden (806185) | about 9 years ago | (#13539139)

Oracle is now the number one CRM company? What about SAP? They're so big and so dominant in their market that their product gave CRM systems the name "CRM" in the first place

Just a thought...

Re:Number one CRM company? (1)

DeepDarkSky (111382) | about 9 years ago | (#13539411)

I haven't checked the stats, but I seem to recall SAP was #1, followed by PeopleSoft, and Siebel is not far behind. Combining PeopleSoft and Siebel probably makes it #1.

Antitrust? (1)

delta_avi_delta (813412) | about 9 years ago | (#13539171)

Does anyone know what the anti-trust or monopoly issues surrounding this might be. How many serious competitors does Oracle have in the US? How many in the world?

Isn't their behaviour of late equivalent to apple buying out Sun, Unix, Linux (metahphorically) and everyone else an an attempt to be bigger than microsoft?

I, for one... (1)

planckscale (579258) | about 9 years ago | (#13539188)

welcome our new CRAPMO (customer relationship application provider management overlord)!

Whereas I for one (1)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | about 9 years ago | (#13539219)

welcome our new CRAM (customer relationship application manager) overlords ...

especially since I'm an ORACLE developer since back in my military days ...

[wonder if I have to wear a happy smile now when I haven't had my morning latt~e?

Oops (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13539216)

Hey, who ever put this story up, you got that backwards. Oracle is a U.S. company based in Cupertino, I believe Siebel is a German company. Just a correction.

My secret wish is... (1)

suitepotato (863945) | about 9 years ago | (#13539251)

...that Microsoft bankrolls the research and development of a time machine to go back and stop Oracle from becoming so big but the machine has a GPF and instead falls out of the timestream onto the headquarters Remedy thus eliminating the threat of ARS forever instead.

What does this mean for smaller players like (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 years ago | (#13539274)

Sybase who are already on weak footing? Anybody know much about how Siebel's CRM on-demand compares to Salesforce.com (which is pretty kick-ass btw)?

What next (5, Interesting)

sapbasisnerd (729448) | about 9 years ago | (#13539363)

I imagine the phone lines between Armonk and Walldorf and Redmond and Walldorf are pretty busy now. Now that this penny has dropped IBM has got to be running the calculus on how much they can afford to tick off Oracle by buying SAP. As things are today IBM does much more business with SAP than they do with Oracle so I'm guessing there's about a 50% chance they will enter the game now.

Who's next for Oracle? (3, Interesting)

$RANDOMLUSER (804576) | about 9 years ago | (#13539389)

They seem to be buying customers now.
My guess is their next takeover target is Computer Associates. CA seems pretty ripe for the pickin'.

Check Siebel website! -OOPS! (4, Informative)

quark007 (765762) | about 9 years ago | (#13539440)

On the Siebel home page [siebel.com] they describe the advantages of the merger i.e. better customer satisfaction..blah..blah blah..
But check out this [siebel.com] on Siebel website. It has several comments on how the PeopleSoft/Oracle merger is bad for customers.
Just as an example: Peoplesoft/ORACLE merger is a loss for the CRM market.
Someone better feed these web-developers to clean up the pages!
How about some anti-trust/ monopoly action?
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