Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

KDE 4 Promises Large Changes

CmdrTaco posted more than 8 years ago | from the evolution-will-be-televised dept.

KDE 401

HatofPig writes "As the dust settles from aKademy 2005, the annual KDE conference, it's a good time to take a look at what the KDE developers are working on. Though KDE 3.5 isn't even out yet, developers are already working on KDE 4. Plenty of work has already gone into porting existing code to Qt4, the GUI toolkit upon which KDE is based, and KDE developers are working on projects that could radically change how the world's most popular free desktop looks and works."

cancel ×

401 comments

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

Yes! (-1, Offtopic)

HatofPig (904660) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674534)

First accepted submission! (and first post?) Today is my lucky day!

Re:Yes! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13674541)

Too bad -- it's the first post to a DUPE! Hell, even the link in the article is marked as visited in my browser!

Re:Yes! (1)

HatofPig (904660) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674559)

Nice try... but the last article even close to this was here [slashdot.org] , which just introduced the concept of KDE plasma and plugged SimpleKDE.

Re:Yes! (1)

flibble-san (700028) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674761)

Why not just be honest and say "Hey, guys! I just ripped this news off from NewsForge and submitted it to slashdot"

The original post was made by Tom Chance one of the members of the NewsForge team here: http://software.newsforge.com/software/05/09/19/16 16206.shtml?tid=130 [newsforge.com]

Clinton, next time try and credit the original writers...

Changes? (-1, Troll)

Naerymdan (870497) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674536)

O_o changes is good. Evil is good, good is evil so evil is good!

Re:Changes? (1)

Slashdot_Gandhi (912342) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674587)

KDE 4 Promises Large Changes

And what about quick changes and spare changes?

Gandhi loses karma here [pacovilla.com] , but its a cool read: I think change is a good thing. I am told, though I don't rightly recall, that I was seeking change just about an hour after being born and have been on a quest for it ever since. Change is good, if it is good change. But not all change is good change. Some change is spare change, or short change or quick change. Rodney is trying to sell us his quick change version of improvement with the spare change he's found in Maria's cushins and we are being short changed by the effort. Everyone loses but Rod! He even discusses that his change is substandard and too fast when he says, "although it may seem that we are "changing the tires while the car is moving."

Stability, ease of use and speed (3, Insightful)

gilesjuk (604902) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674540)

These need to be the main focus of KDE now. There's tons of features but it needs to be faster and more rock solid.

It's a nuisance when Windows Explorer on an average Athlon is slightly more responsive than Linux and KDE on an AMD64 x2. Also Konqueror struggles with some pages, rendering them really slowly.

Re:Stability, ease of use and speed (5, Insightful)

Ganniterix (863430) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674570)

I don't think that it is a major killer for KDE to be slightly less responsive. I think if linux wants to be taken more seriously by non-geek people, it has to drastically imporve the artwork in the GUI. Even the hard-core developers and internet geeks, as soon as screen shots are out... they hammer down servers to look out for the eye candy. A generic user does not even notice the slightly slower response time, but he will notice if Windows Vista looks better than KDE 4. So ... my two c.. I think KDE is taking a very good direction. Better art-work, means better eye-candy, and more attracting generic users. (I am making an enormous assumption that a generic user will still be able to run popular household applications on the Linux box ...)

Re:Stability, ease of use and speed (3, Informative)

FudRucker (866063) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674628)

i agree, Konquerer makes for a great file manager, but as a web browser it needs work, i think i will stick with Firefox or Opera for web browsers...

there is a project called SimleKDE i am going to keep an eye on- http://www.simplekde.org/ [simplekde.org] i hope SimpleKDE makes a good fork (little brother) of KDE...

Re:Stability, ease of use and speed (4, Informative)

Nasarius (593729) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674644)

It's a nuisance when Windows Explorer on an average Athlon is slightly more responsive than Linux and KDE

Interesting. I've found the opposite to be true, especially with the Start/K menu. If you want to speed up Konqueror's file browsing features, turn off stuff like document previews.

Re:Stability, ease of use and speed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13674656)

Maybe you should check your linux or try a different distribution, for example I don't like Suse because it is much slower than for example SimpleMEPIS.

KDE 3.4.2 on my Athlon XP 1800 feels faster than Windows XP on my P4 3,2 Mhz HT....

Re:Stability, ease of use and speed (3, Informative)

m50d (797211) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674665)

I have an 800mhz duron and KDE on it is faster than any windows I've ever seen (including the same system). It's got a lot of ram though, that might be the difference.

As for web page rendering, if you look at the benchmarks konqueror is the fastest Free browser, beating all the gecko-based ones hands down. Where it does get slow is running javascript, that needs to be improved.

I hope its not bloated (0)

geo_2677 (593590) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674545)

I would really love(not that i don't now) a KDE thats lightweight and as functional. Not the memory hog that it is now..

Re:I hope its not bloated (4, Informative)

Pienjo (10175) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674572)

In the past, I've successfully made myself a "KDE lite" by getting rid of the biggest resource hog: the desktop and the window manager. OpenBox (At least: version 2, I assume version 3 is just the same) honours the same windowmanager hints, and can (could?) offer a system tray as well.

In a nutshell:

* Make a .xinitrc (or an .xsession, I usually have a symlink from the first to the second), which starts openbox at the end
* Start docker (The OpenBox system tray replacement), kicker, klipper, and whatever other kde components you want to launch.

Tadaa. Done. KDE-lite.

Re:I hope its not bloated (3, Informative)

zootm (850416) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674599)

Surely you're looking for XFCE? I'm not convinced that making the software more "lightweight" is a good argument, that's clearly not what they're aiming for. Although if there's actual structural problems, or bugs, causing the OTT memory usage, yes, those should be dealt with.

Re:I hope its not bloated (1)

ciroknight (601098) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674734)

Surely you've realized that some people don't like the GTK toolkit?

I'm one of them when it comes to coding for it, but I really like the look of it, and use GNOME on my own desktop (I just deal with the painful slowness of it). But there exists a large community of people who like the Qt toolkit, but don't like Qt apps and KDE because they tend to over-inflate every feature they have available to the point that it makes Windows look featureless.

The fact is, there really isn't a catch all solution for what people want, and that's why KDE, GNOME, XFCE, etc. exist in the first place. It would be nice if the community could get together, iron out some standards on how some future version of GNOME and Qts APIs would drive the same engine, look the same, and feel the same to the user, thus letting them have the ultimate choice of what they want to program with, but people will even find problems with this approach, and the people from both sides are so locked in this Holy Desktop War that I'd personally be willing to bet Israel and Palestine will work out their differences first.

Re:I hope its not bloated (1)

zootm (850416) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674784)

I agree. I use GNOME on my Linux machines, and whenever I have to use a KDE-based app I feel as though I'm somehow missing out, like when I'd run GTK-based apps on my KDE (on BSD) install in the past. The community is clearly divided, and although this is, as much as anything, an advantage of the OSS way of doing things, the resources have been split up in a fairly weakening way. Nobody wants to introduce "better integration" of the other toolkit because it's both a concession to the "other side", and a very technically-difficult task. It's a pretty strange situation in general.

SimpleKDE (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13674739)

Have a look at www.simplekde.org

Re:I hope its not bloated (1, Interesting)

MROD (101561) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674782)

KDE Version 1 was nice, lean, clean and fast. It worked wonderfully on old kit such as Sun SPARCstation 2s etc.

KDE version 2 started eating memory and resources because it added a whole lot of underlying engineering, most of which a technical user who doesn't use it as just a desktop to manage xterms and other X programs doesn't use. You needed at least a Sun Ultra 1 with 256MB of RAM for it to be useful.

KDE version 3 increased the overhead quite a bit and increased the disk usage a lot. Unless you had a 440MHz Sun Ultra 10 with half a gig of RAM it's painful.

I'm guessing that KDE 4 won't even run on platforms which don't use an X server without the new Xorg server extensions and a gigahertz processor or two.

You may ask yourself why I'm not talking about the power of PC's running Linux as a comparison against which to judge the different versions.. well, firstly, KDE is supposed to be fully cross (unix-like) platform. Secondly, we're a mostly Sun shop for the research side of things here, with Linux increasing in number, but because of the extended nature of machine replacement in academia I still have to support and run 8-10 year old machines. To me, being able to run a reasonably modern desktop for my users is important. KDE used to be the ideal replacement for the really increadibly crummy CDE which comes with Solaris.. it's getting harder and harder to keep it running on the old hardware.

here we go (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13674552)

KDE developers are working on projects that could radically change how the world's most popular free desktop looks and works.

Here we go. The day KDE stops hyping and starts delivering will be an interesting day. The KDE seems to specialize in making up shit that will get posted on slashdot, whereas the GNOME project actually delivers the goods (accessibility, working multimedia framework) without the all hype. P.S I'm a Windows user... an outside observer if you like. The KDE project seems a lot like Windows (promise a lot, deliver little, rely heavily on mouthpieces to do your marketing), but without the huge user base.

Re:here we go (0, Flamebait)

Trestop (571707) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674813)

Well, the fact is that KDE has a larger user base then GNOME. I wonder why ? maybe because GNOME ("we-what-preferences-you-want") just sucks ?

Speed and memory consumption (5, Interesting)

LLuthor (909583) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674557)

If there are any KDE devs reading this:

PLEASE PLEASE OPTIMIZE FOR MEMORY USAGE!

Its really sad that Windows with all its services and stuff uses 1/2 the RAM of KDE alone.

Re:Speed and memory consumption (3, Insightful)

gowen (141411) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674604)

Amen brother. Gnome people -- that goes for you, too.

Re:Speed and memory consumption (2, Interesting)

beforewisdom (729725) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674696)

This is a true story ( I am sad to say ) though many will not want to believe it.

I met a very attractive woman( hot blond ). As amazing fortune would have it, she was a reader in her spare time, of similar politics, was very witty and loved joking around. As if that could not get any better she was a linux users and attended linux meetup groups.

She recently switched to windows xp. I was shocked and I asked her about it. She told me that she wanted to use a remote client to work on her work machine from home. She told me that windows xp did it so significantly faster that she dumped linux because she could not stand the wait.

Then she proved it to me with a demonstration.

I could not argue with her.

It is truly sad that windows xp out performs the premier linux desktop.

I am with every one else. I have most of the features I want.

I could wait a year for new features if the good folks at the KDE wanted to spend a year working on performance and stability.

It could become a marketing strength, similar to the firefox people being able to brag about being able to patch holes light years faster than microsoft.

They can brag about taking a year to optimize their code..."who else will do that? Enjoy a product that was perfected over the course of a year ".

Two letters: (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13674727)

NX (or maybe 6, as in FreeNX, but I digress...)

Re:Speed and memory consumption (5, Informative)

Nasarius (593729) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674741)

The slowness of remote access has absolutely nothing to do with "outperforming the premier Linux desktop". Such things work on a much lower level. VNC does suck compared to RDP, but look at NX [berlios.de] .

Re:Speed and memory consumption (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13674843)

I met a very attractive woman( hot blond )

You're right, man. We don't believe you.

Re:Speed and memory consumption (4, Insightful)

Rapsey (241302) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674752)

The overall memory usage is not that high. On my system a huge part of the used memory is cache. Even if it shows that my memory is almost full I can easely run a game that takes up atleast half of my RAM without problems.
I can run alot more applications at the same time on my machine when im in KDE, than I can when im in winxp.

Re:Speed and memory consumption (1)

LLuthor (909583) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674864)

I am talking about real resource usage, not cache or swap usage or shared RSS.
Real memory usage and the number of pagefaults made by KDE is extremely high.

Re:Speed and memory consumption (3, Interesting)

slashzin (641759) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674834)

It's only fair to compare KDE 4 to Windows Vista when they come out.

I for one have been folowing the progress of KDE since its 2.0 days and all I can say is they do an amazing job. Yeah, I agree, it always used a lot more memory than the Windows Explorer shell but I bet you would never notice that if you were not with you eyes on the memory gauge. And I can bet you that in the unlikely event some component in KDE crashes, you don't need to restart.

I run KDE 3.5_beta1 on Gentoo right now and have had no issues with it in 3 days usage. This includes desktop, file manager, instant messaging, mail, address book, calendar etc.

All I can say: KDE developers, keep up the good work!

Re:Speed and memory consumption (1)

JonXP (850946) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674848)

OSS seems to have a really hard time with memory consumption. I don't know if it is poor planning, the (supposed) fact that all the programmers are volunteers, or whatever, but I always have memory problems with Open Source stuff. I really ire of having to wait for the swapping to finish before I can use a open program. On a side note, why is it "sad" that software with millions of dollars of R&D behind it outperforms a community developed piece of software?

Re:Speed and memory consumption (1)

LLuthor (909583) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674877)

I say its sad because I much prefer working in KDE, and I do whenever I am at a beefy machine. Sadly, I am not always at a beefy machine and I would still like to be able to use KDE, but I am forced to suffer very sluggish performance, or use Windows instead.

TODO: Clone Spotlight (1, Interesting)

mccalli (323026) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674560)

From the article:
"The most obvious application of Tenor would be desktop search, giving KDE an analog to GNOME's brilliant search tool Beagle. But the Tenor project's chief architect, Scott Wheeler, wants to go further, asking, "how can we make it easier to work with the data we accumulate on the desktop?" So rather than just making it easier for users to search for documents, Tenor will provide application developers with data that can transform their interfaces. For example, the KDE Control Center, which currently organizes the configuration modules into a confusing hierarchy, may provide a search interface with results that show related items and learn from usage patterns."

...can all be distilled into "clone Spotlight, with a bit of Launchbar in there too (the 'learn from usage patterns' bit).

Cheers,
Ian

why not... (-1, Troll)

idlake (850372) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674565)

If it's going to be a "radical change", why not change the toolkit and/or the programming language while they are at it?

Re:why not... (1)

SimilarityEngine (892055) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674579)

Erm, aren't they changing to Qt 4? Which, from a review I read in a mag just yesterday, promises to be quite a major upgrade from the Qt 3.x line.

Waste of all the progress! (4, Informative)

Bralkein (685733) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674619)

Because, unless I am very much mistaken, it would require that almost all of the project be re-written or thrown away and started on again. You can still have a radical change without having to throw away all of the code that's already been written. Also, they are porting the whole of the KDE project from the Qt3 toolkit to Qt4, since Qt4 is not backward-compatible with Qt3, so in a sense, they are changing the toolkit - but they are porting to one that is very, very similar to the one they use now. ;) What's wrong with Qt anyway that might make you want to port away from it? You might say that it's GPL and not LGPL, which might discourage proprietary developers who don't want to fork out for the alternative license, but that's about it, anything else is really just a matter of preference.

The write-up also seemed rather sparse in details, so while I am writing this post I may as well chuck in a few links:

Interesting interview with Aaron Seigo [aseigo.bddf.ca]
Another good interview with Zack Rusin [ox.ac.uk]
Official site for KDE Plasma, the KDE4 desktop. [kde.org]

Re:Waste of all the progress! (1, Interesting)

idlake (850372) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674737)

Because, unless I am very much mistaken, it would require that almost all of the project be re-written or thrown away and started on again.

You are mistaken. You can pull off tightly integrated backwards compatibility and still migrate to a new toolkit and language. Apple has demonstrated this.

What's wrong with Qt anyway that might make you want to port away from it? [...] anything else is really just a matter of preference.

KDE4 has specific goals, and one has to ask the question whether Qt and C++ are the best platforms to support those goals. I believe they aren't. But, of course, since most KDE programmers are heavily invested in Qt and C++, they wouldn't agree.

In the end, the market will decide. I suspect that around the time KDE4 comes out, you are going to see other mainstream Linux desktops that are more user friendly and easier to develop for.

You might say that it's GPL and not LGPL, which might discourage proprietary developers who don't want to fork out for the alternative license, but that's about it

Yes, that's another problem, and that's exactly the problem the LGPL was intended to address. Putting a GPL license on software that has less restrictive substitutes discourages its use. Most of the software I develop is open source, but I'd still have to pay for Qt if I ever only want to temporarily distribute a single copy in binary form only.

Re:Waste of all the progress! (1)

xtracto (837672) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674824)

Official site for KDE Plasma, the KDE4 desktop.

Man... that Jessica Hall girl is hot!
Makes me wish to become a KDE developer =o)

Most popular!? (-1, Flamebait)

SilverSun (114725) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674569)

C'mon. I use KDE and I find certain things beter than in gnome, konsole, kmail, ... well ... maybe KDE even is the "most" popular by certain standards, but why do they have to shove it in my face everytime????

It goes on in the article: "radical changes"... boy... having a nerw icon set and a mail client that is somehow integrated to a half-finished kalendar ist not a "radical" change...

That is really anoying... especially you also read this from "official" KDE PR people, not only from KDE fan boys posting to /.

-p

Re:Most popular!? (4, Insightful)

HatofPig (904660) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674614)

When you have got a product, and you want it to get marketshare (even if it is free), then you have to push it and advertise! It has got to be in peoples faces, because for every one person like you who already knows that it's a good product and yet is sick of the advertising there are 100 who have never heard of it.

Albeit, Slashdot isn't quite the place to be pushing KDE and *nix if you want it to get seen by Joe Sixpack.

Actually, a friend at school was messing around on my laptop, and was amazed with all the stuff that KDE 3.4 could do and it's bundled apps. His jaw dropped at Amarok (auto lyric downloading, Wiki entry on the band, smart playlist, native iPod support, etc.) and was even more amazed when I told him about stuff like K3b's built in DVD ripping, KAudioCreator CD ripping, Kopete supporting all those protocals in one window, and plenty of other stuff. It's worth showing to people.

-Clinton

Re:Most popular!? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13674645)

If you feel that they shove it in your face, don't read or use it.

That's the beauty of open source: nobody is forcing you to do a goddamn thing.

Big deal. Its still not grandma-friendly (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13674577)

Linux is *not* user friendly, and until it is linux will stay with >1% marketshare.

Take installation. Linux zealots are now saying "oh installing is so easy, just do apt-get install package or emerge package": Yes, because typing in "apt-get" or "emerge" makes so much more sense to new users than double-clicking an icon that says "setup".

Linux zealots are far too forgiving when judging the difficultly of Linux configuration issues and far too harsh when judging the difficulty of Windows configuration issues. Example comments:

User: "How do I get Quake 3 to run in Linux?"
Zealot: "Oh that's easy! If you have Redhat, you have to download quake_3_rh_8_i686_010203_glibc.bin, then do chmod +x on the file. Then you have to su to root, make sure you type export LD_ASSUME_KERNEL=2.2.5 but ONLY if you have that latest libc6 installed. If you don't, don't set that environment variable or the installer will dump core. Before you run the installer, make sure you have the GL drivers for X installed. Get them at [some obscure web address], chmod +x the binary, then run it, but make sure you have at least 10MB free in /tmp or the installer will dump core. After the installer is done, edit /etc/X11/XF86Config and add a section called "GL" and put "driver nv" in it. Make sure you have the latest version of X and Linux kernel 2.6 or else X will segfault when you start. OK, run the Quake 3 installer and make sure you set the proper group and setuid permissions on quake3.bin. If you want sound, look here [link to another obscure web site], which is a short HOWTO on how to get sound in Quake 3. That's all there is to it!"

User: "How do I get Quake 3 to run in Windows?"
Zealot: "Oh God, I had to install Quake 3 in Windoze for some lamer friend of mine! God, what a fucking mess! I put in the CD and it took about 3 minutes to copy everything, and then I had to reboot the fucking computer! Jesus Christ! What a retarded operating system!"

So, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that what seems easy and natural to Linux geeks is definitely not what regular people consider easy and natural. Hence, the preference towards Windows.

*Notice* (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13674594)

Parent Is a copy/paste troll .. Incase anyone missed that fact and moderates it insightful again.

fuck you bitch (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13674620)

*Insert ASCII goatse here*

Repeated ten times already... (1)

aug24 (38229) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674779)

...give it up you sad individual.

List [google.co.uk]

Wonder if he's being paid for this or if he's just a dick.

Justin.

Re:Big deal. Its still not grandma-friendly (2, Interesting)

KayosIII (655272) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674683)

Man have you seen a real new user try to use a windows installation package. They get to about the second or third next and freeze... You would be suprised at how many times I get asked to do this task or how many (real) mum and dad users don't install because it is too complicated. The interface for most Linux installers is way too intimidating.. I use synaptic and its great for experts but I would not put in front of a new user. From an interface perspective its hard to go past klik (or the MacOSX disk image packages) It is a very promising technology that I am sure will catch on in the near future. Also the Khotstuff mentioned in the article is very cool... As for QuakeIII: I seriously don't remember having to do any of this when I installed Quake3... Except for making the installer executable. But you have identified a few key issues. I would go a little further and say what is natural and easy to Windows users is definately not what regular people concider easy and natural. Its probably easier and more natural than linux but it is not easy and natural by any stretch of the imagination. It's something that most users have difficulty realising you were taught windows at school or from friends. Yes I am a linux zealot. I also take teach people who have had NO contact with computers before.

Re:Big deal. Its still not grandma-friendly (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13674743)

Fedora's installer is just as good as Windows', from what I remember. Most of it's pretty much the same - select "Desktop installation" or whatever (we were talking about beginner users, yes?), provide the same network settings and a root password, and click "Go". Swap a few CDs, reboot (ONCE!), et voila!

Now installing applications, that's a different matter...

Re:Big deal. Its still not grandma-friendly (1)

aug24 (38229) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674838)

Please don't feed the troll. He's been cut-and-pasting that exact script anywhere vaguely relevent for a while now.

Cheers,
Justin.

Re:Big deal. Its still not grandma-friendly (2, Funny)

maxwell demon (590494) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674722)

Linux is *not* user friendly, and until it is linux will stay with >1% marketshare.

In other words, if you want to prevent Linux marketshare from dropping to below 1%, make it as unusable as possible.

I don't quite understand why this should work, but hey, I've got some great ideas on how to decrease the usability of Linux!

C? (-1, Troll)

ftsf (886792) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674585)

are they going to switch to using C? that would be nice. Or use GTK as a base.

Re:C? (1)

ardor (673957) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674598)

No! For christs sake, no! KDE is nice being C++- and Qt-based. Switching to GTK, that would be horrible....

Re:C? (1)

ftsf (886792) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674618)

if KDE had a C interface we could code KDE applications in C which is the defacto standard programming language on unix so it would get a lot more use. And it could maintain the current C++ interface as a wrapper around the C interface so there wouldnt be a problem with compatibility.

Re:C? (1)

ardor (673957) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674637)

And, where is the problem with writing a wrapper for a C frontend?
You do know that there are C wrappers for DirectX, for ODE....?
No need to switch the ENTIRE PROJECT to C.

Re:C? (2, Insightful)

m50d (797211) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674676)

KDE has C bindings which are just a wrapper around the C++ interface, which accomplishes the same thing as what you're suggesting. Guess what, no-one uses them, because C++ is far nicer to program in than C. If you really want to, you can program a KDE application in C. On the saner side the API also has bindings for perl, python and java, and probably more.

Re:C? (1)

ftsf (886792) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674720)

thanks for the informative post, but where can these bindings be found? http://developer.kde.org/language-bindings/ [kde.org] does not list any C bindings

Re:C? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13674867)

Word of warning: KDE adovcates claim all kinds of things and are rarely even in the ballpark of the truth. Language bindings are a good exmaple -- few language bindings for KDE are fully-functional (C++ makes it hard work that breaks every ten minutes). The C bindings are a long-standing legend among KDE mouthpieces... their existence is dragged out everytime this argument comes up, but no-one uses them because they don't work... not because they all prefer the magical properties of C++.

FACT: Using KDE/QT restricts your choice of language to C++... unless you like experimenting all the time and constantly rewriting your app.

Re:C? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13674847)

Guess what, no-one uses them, because C++ is far nicer to program in than C

No it's not. For a C++ programmer, C++ is nicer, but for a C programmer, learning C++ just to write KDE programs is a waste of time.

Guess why noone uses them. No, not because C++ is nicer, but because C programmers *avoid* KDE. Why? Because noone knows that there are C-bindings for KDE. When the choice is between learning C++ or not writing ones program to run on KDE, the program won't be running on KDE.

Why does Gnome have so many people working hard to make it the best desktop? Because of the license? No, that's been solved years ago. Because they are *C* programmers, and as long as they think that KDE means being forced to learn/use C++, they will go with Gnome rather than KDE.

If more people knew about those C-bindings, more applications would be written for KDE.

Re:C? (1)

zootm (850416) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674610)

I don't think there'd be much point in switching to C at this point, they'd only have to rig an object model on top of it. They'd probably be better off switching to C# or Java, something which would actually bring tangible benefits.

Re:C? (1)

LLuthor (909583) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674719)

Qt is written in C++ - not C#. KDE is built on top of Qt. Changing that is akin to re-writing all of KDE.

Re:C? (1)

zootm (850416) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674763)

I'm aware of this. Did something I say seem to contradict that?

Re:C? (2, Insightful)

nonmaskable (452595) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674785)

That would be unbelievably stupid. Gnome is in the middle of culture wars over trying to move into this century's technology - either Java or C#/mono, because most on the project realize how high the costs of sticking with C are.

Re:C? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13674800)

Please not. GTK is horrible. Right now, I am writing some classes that astract the same behaviour for GTK and KDE

Here is the KDE version for adding the columns to a table widget:

        table->insertColumns(0,cols.size());
        QStringList names;
        for(size_t i=0;isetColumnLabels(names);

Short,nice,readable,whatever you want. If I make a mistake, the compiler will tell me.

Here is the GTK version:

        for(size_t i=0;icols.size();i++){
            GtkTreeViewColumn *col=0;
            GtkCellRenderer *ren;
            switch(cols[i].type){
            case ListBox::ColumnDef::StaticText:
        col=gtk_tree_view_column_new_with_attributes
            (cols[i].name.c_str(),ren=gtk_cell_renderer_text_n ew(),"text", i,NULL);
        break;
            case ListBox::ColumnDef::CheckBox:
        col=gtk_tree_view_column_new_with_attributes
            (cols[i].name.c_str(),ren=gtk_cell_renderer_toggle _new(),"active", i,NULL);
        g_object_set_data(G_OBJECT(ren),columnkey,(void *)i); //Dangerous cast!
        g_signal_connect(ren,"toggled",G_CALLBACK(toggleCh eckBox),this);
        break;
            }
            gtk_tree_view_append_column (treeview,col);
        }

It is twice as long, is not type safe, checkboxes won't toggle aunless you add a callback, and the documentation is very twisted: Look at example for "active": "active" gboolean : Read / Write
The toggle state of the button.
Default value: FALSE
If you read that, do you understand that you have to set "active" to the column number of the checkbox column? On the PARENT of the cellrenderer object?

Notice how the KDE version does not mention what the column contains. The GTK version does. In both cases, I have to specify it later, when I set the column data. Why do I need to tell it twice to GTK?

And this is not an unfortunate choice, but the general case. FOr QT/KDE, I read the docs, and I implement. For GTK, I read the docs, delve trough examples until I find something similar, crash atthe first trys because all the casts make compiler typechecking useless, and the resulting code is in general twice as long.

Please, kill the ugly beast that is GTK.

Re:C? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13674850)

Bugger, the forum mangled the code, even in 'plain old text' mode. Imagine some lesser than's etc in it, and fill in the missing blanks. Even then, the comment stays valid.

I think it's good that they're trying. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13674588)

I think it's sad that they can't afford good artists.

I can't wait for the beta versions (2, Interesting)

HatofPig (904660) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674589)

Imagine that... Superkarumba [kde-look.org] support built right into the desktop, RuDI [kdedevelopers.org] will mean more compatibility for KDE widget sets and libraries for all applications, KHotNewStuff (snicker) will get kool and new applikations from the web...

It'll be like a second Christmas!

Re:I can't wait for the beta versions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13674663)

Shouldn't that be "Kristmas"?

Linux needs a good, easy desktop. (2, Insightful)

CRC'99 (96526) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674595)

What linux needs for the desktop market is an easy to use, and simple desktop. The problem with this on current installs is the lack of communication between desktop and kernel etc.

For example, Sometimes, sound on linux can be an absolute bitch to get going. Even something as trivial as playing an AVI caused me *way* too much drama. Not that I couldn't get it to work, but then if I wanted sound to work with other things, I need to use a sound daemon. Fair enough, thats not too hard - but then the audio/video sync was out because of the latency in the sound daemon.

The point is, that as long as simple issues like playing a video become mammoth tasks, then the average person will just stick with something simpler. Hell, 90% of the time I can just install Windows and everything will work right out of the box.

This is what needs to be worked on. While all the technical side of things on Linux just rocks, I doubt that many people have worked on the 'end user experiance' because at the moment, it just sucks.

There is a reason Apple is gaining market share - as well as mind share - and it's the OS that does it. I can do the majority of things I can do on a linux system (console and X side), and have a nice, pretty and *FUNCTIONAL* GUI for everything else. The end user experiance is second to none. This is what Linux should be looking at - not making 'sweeping changes' that you still need to spend a week on getting to run just right :|

Re:Linux needs a good, easy desktop. (-1)

killjoe (766577) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674621)

" What linux needs for the desktop market is an easy to use, and simple desktop."

Yea, it's called Gnome.

"For example, Sometimes, sound on linux can be an absolute bitch to get going."

What does this have to do with the desktop?

"The point is, that as long as simple issues like playing a video become mammoth tasks,"

What does this have to do with the desktop?

"There is a reason Apple is gaining market share - as well as mind share - and it's the OS that does it. I can do the majority of things I can do on a linux system (console and X side), and have a nice, pretty and *FUNCTIONAL* GUI for everything else. The end user experiance is second to none."

If you are happy using Macs then that's great you should stick with it.

None of your complaints have anything to do with the desktop. You are wanting applications and drivers.

Re:Linux needs a good, easy desktop. (2, Informative)

seguso (760241) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674675)

For example, Sometimes, sound on linux can be an absolute bitch to get going."
What does this have to do with the desktop?
The point is, that as long as simple issues like playing a video become mammoth tasks,
What does this have to do with the desktop?
Excuse me, aren't multimedia capabilities essential for a desktop OS?

Re:Linux needs a good, easy desktop. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13674708)

KDE is not a "desktop OS", it's only the desktop.

Re:Linux needs a good, easy desktop. (1)

strider44 (650833) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674773)

We're talking about KDE here and no multimedia capabilities like having the right codec or having ALSA set up properly for the sound card has pretty much *nothing* to do with KDE. KDE is not an operating system, it is a desktop environment. The grandparent's point was totally valid.

Re:Linux needs a good, easy desktop. (1)

ardor (673957) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674857)

Of course it does has something to do with KDE. You do know what arts is? And how does a user configure his sound card? With vi editing some alsa config files? No, he wants to configure it USING THE DESKTOP. Multimedia streaming capabilities are part of a desktop, too. The codecs aren't, thats correct, but they should be easy to install; if they aren't in synaptic, things get really hard for an average user. And installing a codec from source using configure, make & make install is neither easy nor pleasant, since the user has to install a lot of dev libs first (and gcc of course). Not user friendly at all. Easy-to-install binary codecs are rare.

Re:Linux needs a good, easy desktop. (1)

rufty_tufty (888596) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674836)

This sounds then like a disto and IP issue, not any particular technical issue with the os or desktop itself.

Still I know it takes me longer to get my linux desktop to the required functionality (sound, video, office, IMs, sound video and photo editing software) after a re-install than it used to for my windows desktop.
Ok the Ubuntu system does this for me for free, but I think most people new to linux don't care if it's a desktop issue or an OS issue, or an app issue or whatever. They just want something that will let them get on with their life.

So it's a many pronged effort, some people will improve the desktop itself, others will improve the OS, others will improve the distro. When people work for free they will do what interests them, and if that's "pointless" twiddles in the windowing system then hey it's their life! We just need to keep saying what we need so that together the package gets to where it needs to go.

Man this has gone offtopic and lecture-y :-)

Re:Linux needs a good, easy desktop. (1)

Ayende Rahien (309542) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674687)

You think that audio/video syncing being hard isn't directly related to desktop?

Re:Linux needs a good, easy desktop. (1)

BenjyD (316700) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674693)

It's to do with the desktop because the sound daemon is part of the desktop - esd or arts. It's required as a hack to get round the problem of only one process being able to output to /dev/dsp at once. It's not really related to drivers and it is generally recognised as being a major problem on the Free software desktop. Latency and syncing issues are a big problem with the current daemons, in my experience, plus they make it more difficult to use apps which need to play sounds but don't use your sound daemon of choice.

Things like dmix present a solution, but I have yet to see a distro that comes with that properly configured and stable out of the box. And figuring out the arcane configuration files required to get them working is not much fun for an average desktop user.

Re:Linux needs a good, easy desktop. (2, Insightful)

ardor (673957) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674703)

Wrong. The desktop should provide easy access to sound configuration. It should NOT involve some config file editing as root.

As for videos, desktop linux distros should play them flawlessly, shouldn't they? As the parent poster correctly stated this is not the case. mplayer crashes often, gxine is fine, but is often installed with little codec support (because of the damn licences). gstreamer works, but usually comes with very few plugins installed. O.K., its a license thing with gstreamer too, thats why the USER has to install the ffmpeg plugin, but wouldn't a messagebox with a "you have to agree to take responsibility blabla...." and an OK button to start the install be adequate? Instead the user has to install the package through synaptic or a terminal. And no, it is NOT intuitive that one has to search for the ffmpeg gst plugin just to watch some AVIs!

But your comment on the Macs really pulls the last straw. There are problems with linux desktops, so - don't correct them but use Macs. Brilliant!

And Gnome is no alternative. Its big, has some serious latency problems sometimes (especially with Nautilus), has some screwed understanding of DPI usage, its very easy to screw it up....

Re:Linux needs a good, easy desktop. (1, Offtopic)

zenmojodaddy (754377) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674634)

I currently use XFCE on top of Slackware. It's slim enough to work on old hardware, GTK based for eye-candy purposes, and configurable almost entirely by mouse. Much more pleasant to use than either GNOME or KDE, but less stark and more integrated than a desktop patched together with Fluxbox et al.

Re:Linux needs a good, easy desktop. (1)

Vanders (110092) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674638)

What linux needs for the desktop market is an easy to use, and simple desktop. The problem with this on current installs is the lack of communication between desktop and kernel etc.

Perhaps Linux isn't the answer, but something like Syllable [syllable.org] might be able to deliver what you and many others are looking for. It's a complete Operating System, which means that implementing features that span from the GUI all the way down to the kernel is very easy.

Re:Linux needs a good, easy desktop. (2, Insightful)

corneliusagain (810256) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674686)

I think you're right. It's important to realise though that the problems are not the obvious ones - basic UI consistency and so on is not that disastrously bad. Rather, it's the "user experience" that is the problem - the number of FAQs, the number of different utilities for the same "user purpose" , and the general need to have specialist knowledge to get item X working with item Y. For my money, a good comparison is with iTunes/iPod and windows based DRM MP3 players - iTunes/iPod just works, and does so in a trustworthy way. At the moment, in this analogy, it's Windows which wins. A good example is hardware. Why can't linux boxes automatically search for & install drivers for me? If compiling kernel extensions as as simple as every website claims it is, why not do it automatically with 1 click and make all hardware stuff transparent?... /End-rant.

Re:Linux needs a good, easy desktop. (1)

m50d (797211) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674700)

For example, Sometimes, sound on linux can be an absolute bitch to get going. Even something as trivial as playing an AVI caused me *way* too much drama. Not that I couldn't get it to work, but then if I wanted sound to work with other things, I need to use a sound daemon. Fair enough, thats not too hard - but then the audio/video sync was out because of the latency in the sound daemon.

If you stick with KDE, you will be fine. You run artsd as the sound daemon - KDE will start it up for you - and since arts handles both the video and the audio (provided you use a KDE media player, such as noatun), there are no sync issues. The problems come when you try and use non-KDE applications (though I have had zero latency issues when outputting to arts with xine, mplayer and vlc) and get them working together.

What linux needs for the desktop market is an easy to use, and simple desktop. The problem with this on current installs is the lack of communication between desktop and kernel etc.

KDE is not linux, and is not part of linux. KDE cannot be integrated more closely with linux because KDE aims to be platform-independent. In fact, it aims to be the platform. You run kde on top of linux, bsd, solaris, mac, and pretty soon windows. Then, you run KDE applications on your kde. Yes, it means kde is less well-integrated with "native" applications on these platforms, but it can't be more integrated with them because that would make it tied to that platform. Just see KDE as your OS, use KDE programs when running KDE, and you'll have far less issues.

Re:Linux needs a good, easy desktop. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13674771)

I agree. There should be kernel abstraction layer for software mixing, similar to directsound. Current solution, dmix, isn't really that. It doesn't work transparently with everything, including older (oss) sound apps, and it expects a degree of cooperation from all apps. So lazy or lame programmers can code their app to be very unfriendly with others on cheap sound cards which don't support hardware mixing (or support it but not in alsa drivers).

For that problem, IMO, alsa will have to be re-engineered. Perhaps a new core, similar in some ways to DRI, to include support for OpenAL and other high-level hardware-supported functionallity (again similar to DirectSound).Open AL should be implemented on top of it, like Mesa is on top of DRI. I just don't see the intiative for such progress yet. Alsa was, it seems, rushed to linux scene for addressing OSS problems, but was still in some ways short-sighted.

Other areas, like X-org composite acceleration, HAL system, gstreamer etc. are showing good progress in desktop area.

Re:Linux needs a good, easy desktop. (2, Insightful)

DFJA (680282) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674852)

The point is, that as long as simple issues like playing a video become mammoth tasks, then the average person will just stick with something simpler. Hell, 90% of the time I can just install Windows and everything will work right out of the box.

You are blaming this on KDE, whereas primarily you should be blaming the hardware manufacturers for not providing support for their hardware, on people who ship their media in proprietary formats, and on the peddlers of those proprietary formats for not providing decoding software for Linux (OK, some do, I know). I have found that these issues aside, KDE just works, with very few exceptions. The exceptions that I do find are no more common than the exceptions that I find with MS Windows which, contrary to popular opinion, is not a "just works" OS. I haven't yet found a "just works" operating system, but the issues I have with my KDE-based GNU/Linux systems are on the same level as with MS Windows.

This is what needs to be worked on. While all the technical side of things on Linux just rocks, I doubt that many people have worked on the 'end user experiance' because at the moment, it just sucks.

You've obviously not used KDE for at least a year then, as if you had you would realise that a whole load of effort has been put into making KDE more usable recently. 3.4.2 and 3.5 beta knock the pants off even 3.3 in terms of polish and usability. There is still work to be done but I already find it far more usable than WinXP. Actually, I am better off when I have a problem with KDE, because at least I stand a chance of fixing it myself. With MS Windows, I am totally at the mercy of Microsoft to fix them for me, which they may or not do according to whether it suits their finances. Even if I don't fix the issues myself, usually someone else does according to their own needs, and lets me have the fix via whatever route.

AJAX DESKTOP PLEASE (-1, Troll)

LogicallyGenius (916669) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674603)

ENOUGH OF SLOW KDE

Bloatware (2)

orangeguru (411012) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674623)

Just getting bigger not better is my first impression. My PC is often faster and more responsive under W2K then under Suse/KDE. It only can get worse with even more gimmicks.

Re:Bloatware (2, Informative)

SimilarityEngine (892055) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674646)

Read about Qt 4 here [trolltech.com] . If Trolltech are to be believed, we are getting more features and better performance. It's not a case of the two being mutually exclusive.

Re:Bloatware (1)

FudRucker (866063) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674666)

KDE is somewhat modular, if you choose you can get away with only installing KDEbase, KDElibs, KDEartwork, (arts & QT are needed too), all the rest of the packages are optional...

Re:Bloatware (1)

kieltux (570345) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674856)

Do you compare SUSE6.2/KDE1 with W2K (published around the same time) or an actuall release of SUSE/KDE with W2K?

That looks really nice (1)

eneville (745111) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674660)

That looks really nice, but the main problem with kde is the time it takes to do things. Quite often I wonder why I'm loading so much into memory on my precious laptop battery when Window Maker is sufficient.

You notice how much is going on when dragging a window across the screen.

Ah, but will KBear work? (2, Insightful)

FishandChips (695645) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674668)

I guess the acid test for KDE 4 (as for KDE 3) will be KBear, then - the strangely named fpt client with the strange user interface that seems to come with each release whether you want it or not.

Will it run this time? Or will it revert to its lovable self and crash shortly after starting up, taking the kicker down with it?

Madames et Messieurs, faites vos jeux!

Re:Ah, but will KBear work? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13674712)

Did I just miss a joke?

What is a fpt client? And what is that KBear you speak so lovingly of?

Sadly I cannot find it in my installation of KDE. I guess my version of KDE did fail your acid test. (Or maybe it did not: What isn't there cannot crash ;-)

Re:Ah, but will KBear work? (1)

FishandChips (695645) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674749)

I do apologize, Mr Coward - my typing, perhaps even my distros (Debian and SuSE). But it still remains a great test for this Q&A-troubled desktop environment.

change (1, Troll)

Tom (822) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674674)

that could radically change how the world's most popular free desktop looks and works.

Good! It's about time that they move ahead, and I so hope that they finally abandon the "let's copy everything from windos" meme, which is not a winning strategy. If you want to copy, at least do it from the original (MacOS) and not another already crappy copy (windos).

#1 reason I'm not using KDE: It looks and works like windos, and windos usability is rock bottom.

Re:change (1)

ardor (673957) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674742)

Well, Windows Explorer is very unstable, and sucks a lot of memory, but it is VERY usable. It *reacts* quickly, thats a crucial point. With Nautilus, sometimes I select a bunch of files I want to move, and want to drag, and - nothing happens! Then after an eternity the drag&drop icon appears. Annoying stuff like this happens with Explorer too sometimes, but not as often as with Nautilus.

Re:change (4, Insightful)

Bogtha (906264) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674757)

#1 reason I'm not using KDE: It looks and works like windos

And yet the #1 reason lots of other people won't use KDE is because it doesn't work exactly like Windows. The KDE developers are stuck in a catch-22 situation - if KDE resembles Windows in any manner, people flame them for just copying a poor desktop, and if they try and do something new, people flame them for doing things differently to Windows. Either way, they can't win. Even the compromise they have now - default to Windows-like and offer the ability to configure it differently - isn't enough for some people.

poorly chosen name (1)

dJOEK (66178) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674710)

Is it just me, or does 'Appeal' sound a whole lot like 'Apple' ?

Include CVS/SVN stuff in Konqueror! (5, Insightful)

ardor (673957) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674728)

In Windows I use TortoiseCVS/SVN. It absolutely rocks. Using Cervisia after using Tortoise is anything but pleasant. I don't want to offend the Cervisia devs with this, but I would be glad if a new Cervisia release would integrate in Konqueror like Tortoise does with Explorer.

summary of the goods (1)

digitalderbs (718388) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674753)

From TFA :
  • Appeal - "The Appeal project is a mechanism for bringing artists, usability experts, programmers, and enthusiasts together in the earliest stages of development by holding in-person meetings and maintaining ongoing communication over mailing lists, wikis, and Web-based forums"
  • Tenor - "a contextual linkage engine. Tenor will gather contextual data -- such as the metadata stored in MP3s, the contents of text files, and relationships between a file and the application that created it -- and present it to applications via another KDE framework. This will allow applications to provide more useful ways of searching files for users."
  • Plasma - "design and implement an entirely new desktop shell, combining the desktop (including wallpaper and icons), the panel and its applets, and desktop applets like SuperKaramba into a coherent and innovative vision"
  • RuDI - "a compatibility layer in between KDE and Qt that would allow developers to write pure Qt applications that can take advantage of KDE's powerful features"

Re:summary of the goods (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13674804)

so instead of using the already existing framework of beagle, they are creating something completely new and redundant, so that users now will have to index their drives 2 times for each application.

sounds retarded to me.

My suggestions (2, Insightful)

DrXym (126579) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674786)

1) Consolidate and halve the number of pref panels. There's too many, they're all over the place and they contain advanced & seldom used features mixed in with the common features. Throw that crap out of the window and pursue something more minimalist and therefore easier to use. If Apple (and to some extent GNOME) can do it, then so can KDE.

2) Work with GNOME, Trolltech and Free Desktop and produce a common widget theme engine. I don't care if an app runs QT or GTK, I don't care if it's part of KDE or GNOME. I do care that the average Linux desktop looks severely schizophrenic and unpredictable from one app to the next.

Re:My suggestions (4, Insightful)

ardor (673957) | more than 8 years ago | (#13674827)

1) is correct, but also pretty ironic, given that there are so much zealots who say exactly this (too much prefs stuff in the control center) and then say "edit bla.conf" when anyone asks how to get sound working (provided the zealots don't quit with a "RTFM"). The advanced options shouldn't disappear completely (like GNOME did). Instead, they should be hidden behind an "Advanced options...." button. For example, the Windows desktop settings behave this way; the most common options are visible immediately, but for editing graphics driver options or setting the monitor refresh rate etc. one has to go to the Advanced Options part.

2) There is already something for GNOME/KDE integration: a GTK theme engine based on Qt. Thus, GTK apps look like Qt/KDE ones. Of course, its only useful if you use KDE...
Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>