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Wozniak's Comments on "Pirates"

CmdrTaco posted more than 15 years ago | from the stuff-to-read dept.

Television 275

webslacker wrote in to tell us that Steve Wozniak has posted his commnts on the TNT Movie, Pirates of the Silicon Valley. He notes several things and clarifies other things. As many of you noted, the movie made him out to be one of the coolest guys ever to live. I'd say thats very deserved. And I'm not saying that just because we had an Apple ][ (on a cart wheeled from class to class!) in my elementary school.

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Re:That may be true, but (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835481)

As I see it, starting a corporation and selling it actually got it out into the hands of more people than giving it away for free, didn't it?

Re:Pirates Comic (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835482)

This guy's site is hilarious!!!
Check it out!

Man from another era? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835483)

From how I see it, most respected those days lived and breatehd open source / free software/hardware. (Woz mentioned giving away free schematics) The concept wasn't was well defined as it is now, they took it for granted, and it was only money grubbing bastards like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates that ruined it for the rest of us in this day and age. Fortunately, bastions of the good old days of freedom exists in BSD and FSF (you may not love RMS, but you have to thank him for FSF).

BTW, has anyone forwarded this slashdot column to Woz yet?

Schematics (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835484)

Hey, if those are still out.. does that mean I can build my own Apple I?

Re:Woz: a hacker's hacker (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835485)

Do most modern American women HAVE recipies anymore? I'd imagine that the listing would be something like this:

1. Order out.
2. Microwave something.

I'd say that the computer use for people over 35 is very limited (aside from people who must use them for work and the technicially inclined). Under 35, most users use computers for:

1. Typing papers.
2. Playing games.
3. Email/Web...

Re:Schematics (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835486)

Why don't you write Woz and ask him? Maybe you'll be listed under his next comments page. Hehe.

Re:Man from another era? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835487)

I perhaps will not sound in-line with most, but those "bastards" created the market, they made companies value people who work and pay them big $$$. Would you like getting pay something like in McDonalds? If so, how would you buy new gears? I respect Woz a lot, but flaming BG and Jobs for everything is wrong. Of course you won't make billions, but they created conditions in which you (by doing job you love!) can make at least $100k.

Re:Coolest ever? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835488)

Next to the Threshold bar (1-5, oldest/newest, etc) Next to the "Change" button.

slashdotted again (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835489)

wish i could read it

Re:Pirates Comic (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835490)

O.K., kids, this is proof that crack kills brain cells.

If you want to see something funny, try:


www.theonion.com

This site ranks a 4.2 on the Kevin Murphy Scale, by the way.

Re:Woz: a hacker's hacker (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835491)

Watch it! I'm currently 33, and I expect to play games and use email/web for at least 6 decades. Sadly, it seems like I'll have to type papers for just as long as well... :(

Re:Can you imagine ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835492)

Unfortunatly it will be an industry where people would work for (almost) free. Well, you would make some money on services (like RedHat), but you would have to agree that those sky-high salaries and bonuses wouldn't be possible, would they? Closed-source/proprietary and open-source will and have to co-exist. FYI, hardware and software industry developed so rapidly because of great investments, which were in turn triggered by high profitability of this business. Say thanks to those "greedy bastards" like Gates, Jobs et al, who made possible that YOU is in great demand and companies are happy to shell out big $.

Re:Schematics (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835493)

Sounds like the beginnings of a kickass WM theme...

Re:Also check this out (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835494)

"Back when US$100M used to mean something..."

ah, the truth of it all. check out the new Forbes richest list. (link not available at press time).

~jawad

The way I see it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835495)

The way I see it, if a company were to invest in a free OS like Linux instead of paying hundreds of dollar per seat for Windows, there would be more money spend on "YOU". Especially since a real OS like Linux needs a real system administrator and not some point-and-click administrators (who get paid just as much in today's industry).

Re:yet another slashdotted site. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835496)

www.woz.org is running WebSTAR/3.0.1 ID/58006 on MacOS

They obviously weren't prepared for this kind of traffic; this must have been a pretty low profile site before. There aren't *that* many /.'ers...

Too bad. looked like it would have been a good read :(

... waiting for the obligatory flames about how much *better* it would be if it was running Linux, or how much *worse* it would be if it were running NT....

Re:The way I see it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835497)

Wrong, just because more money left, doesn't mean they will be used for YOU. No fscking way. In shareholders world as it is now, money would go to other way. So far I have not heard that companies that installed Linux saved money AND increased salaries of their employees. Quite contrary give up-time of Linux, which blows Windows, managers might be tempted to fire system admin and get part time. I by no means advocate trouble creating OSes to pay big bucks, BUT what I am saying is quite the fact you can't ignore -- these guys created the highly profitable industry as it is now.

But, it's not that I am pro-Win or something, it's just people should not flame everything blindly, these well paid jobs were created by the above mentioned people, luckily including Woz.

Something I cannot agree (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835498)

I cannot agree with you that those "blowhards" that you mentioned DO NOT deserve the wealth they have.

I think everybody who has concretely contributed to his/her business deserves the wealth he/she receives. The quantity is just another measurement of this.

If you think that someone does not deserve the wealth if he/she didn't write a code of line, then this is your own prejudice

Re:Old Woz stories (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835499)

>I think that Steve Jobs is a brilliant visionary who honestly wants to create cool stuff (as opposed to Bill
>Gates who just wants to be rich), but I lost quite a bit of respect for Jobs as a person when I heard about this >story.

I'm sorry, I just can't picture Jobs as a brilliant visionary. A ruthless exploiter of Woz's engineering genius maybe. Granted, Apple Computer would never have gotten off the ground without Job's business skills, but brilliant visionary? Mmmm, no.

---
Apple Computer, going out of business for the last 20 years.

Yeah, but not THAT great (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835500)

Well, Woz may be a cut above the archetypal greedy bastards, but, c'mon, gimme a break. If a great, down-to-earth guy like him had the money that the bastards have, couldn't he be putting it towards good purposes (you know, that whole "end world hunger" thing). Goodness, yes, but simplistic and boring goodness.

Engineers will never rule the world (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835501)

Steve Jobs was as close to a visionary as you get in the computer industry. It would have taken considerably longer for computers to enter normal homes and offices had Jobs not existed, 'cuz brilliant guys like Woz would have stuck to giving out free schematics at the local computer club. It's like Open Source without the Internet: I don't think so. And what about PARC? Those idiots at Xerox were gonna let GUI die because they couldn't find a market for it. Jobs didn't engineer it, but he saved it from an ugly death and brought it to the masses.
Engineers look at the small picture, in terms of inventions and such, but don't think in terms of the effect on society, missing the big picture. Jobs ONLY saw the big picture. To have an effect, you gots to be havin' both. So don't undersell Jobs.

RMS personality type (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835502)

Having met and talked to RMS, I'd speculate that he's an INTJ, like myself, but with more extreme ratings in each of those categories.

ESR is probably ENTP, I'd say, but it's less obvious.

It ain't braggin... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835503)

...if you can do it, fella.

Re:'im just a humble guy with my own domain name' (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835504)

if everyone around was getting rich off of your inventions and hard work, i'd be doing the same. he doesn't have vast fortune (relatively) so at least let him promote his technical accomplishments. i bet you tend to sneer at professors' curiculum vitae.

Suck's sucky design. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835505)

Ugh.. who designed that site? I get a headache from reading that thin width centered bold text in their articles.

Nice artwork, though.

Woz is INDEED the man... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835541)

I also had an Apple II on a cart wheeled around
from classroom to classroom. Even then, I was
ahead of my classmates. ;D I still scorn that
evil woman for never answering my question about
what it meant by "BROKEN BY A SOFT SECTOR" on the
LOGO bootup menu. :/ But ooooh, the memories...
I fear what kids must have to work with today.
There was a certain innocence attached to the
Apple II and it's kin...:~(

There's a second page of comments! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835542)

I hope you guys didn't miss, there's a second page with comments that were way more interesting

http://www.woz.org/woz/commets.html

http://www.woz.org/woz/commets1.html

Woz is a wizard (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835543)

Cool is ok praise.
Calling him ethical is nice.

But, the best praise I can think of:

Woz is a wizard.

(for you youngins, wizards are hardware AND software gurus. The height of the profession.)

Can you imagine ... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835544)

what the industry would look like if Woz had managed to keep the hardware open.

Re:Old Woz stories (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1835545)

I was a student at Berkeley in 1987 when Woz graduated with a degree in electrical engineering/computer science. He was the class valedictorian, not surprisingly.

I don't remember the assumed name he used, but *NO ONE*, at least no one I knew, had any idea who he really was.

At the graduation ceremony, he gave a nice speach and then casually tossed of at the end that he really was not who he had claimed to be, his real name was Steve Wozniak.

You could have heard the jaws dropping a mile away. It was a great day, and not one soon forgotten.

Re:Another Woz story... (1)

farrellj (563) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835550)

Acutally, The Woz didn't design the drive, he used an off-the-shelf drive...but custom circuits and controller was his. And the IWM is actually know as the "Infernal Wozniak Machine"

He also used a "unique" way to get the drive to find track 0 to read the boot code...since they had 33 tracks, they backed up the stepper motor 33 times to make sure it was a track 0, no matter where the drive head was! That is what what gave the Apple ]['s their distinctive sound upon booting.

ttyl
Farrell
(Long time Apple ][ Hacker, LOGO Teacher and GraForth fan)

Woz. (1)

Trepidity (597) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835551)

I'd have to agree, Woz rocks. It seems he was into Open Hardware way back in the 70s, giving out free schematics =)

Re:Coolest ever? (2)

gavinhall (33) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835560)

Posted by 2B||!2B:

I totally agree. If only it were possible! But it's probably about 5 years too late. At Phase5 in Germany (www.phase5.de) they used to have lots of info on their A\\Box project, which is a modern (and just as leading-edge for its time) version of the Amiga they planned on creating. But the info has gone away, which means it probably won't happen. Gateway makes a bunch of promises about reviving the Amiga, but I'll believe it when I see it. My guess is at best they'll do a faster (PPC) version of the 4000.

Re:Not in PA (1)

Kev Vance (833) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835561)

Hrm... I suppose that would be why you must take the Windows Applications course to graduate from my high school. Microsoft influence at the highest levels of my school!

Once you take that, you never have to use the PCs again and the other classes (no programming, just graphics) use the mac labs. Not that they're any better or more stable, I think I'm just spoiled since I use linux at home.

Locksmith, eh? (1)

spun (1352) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835576)

Deja vu. I remember wading into those things with hex editor and a disassembler. They had some gnarly copy protection back in the day. Remember the disks with the weak magnetic region, would flip polarity every time it was read? Stuff written in between tracks, past the normal end of the disk, etc?

I had an Apple II+, my friend won an Apple IIe in a contest from Computerland. We were 14 years old, always dialing in to pirate bulletin boards, downloading programs, which took forever, and 4 out of five times, didn't work right. My dad introduced me to software piracy and the online world several years before that, with a TRS-80 Model 1 and a CompuServe account. At that point, piracy wasn't even illegal!

The Apple IIe was definitely the coolest computer, until the Amiga came out. I had a Commodore 64 & a 128 for a while, but I could never afford an Amiga. I remember when my friends dad got one of the original IBM XT computers for work (he was an accountant) & we thought it was such crap, no graphics, no good games. It was years before the IBM compats were anything but a joke.

Anyway, all that early piracy led to a sincere interest in how computers worked, hardware & software, a degree, and some nice, high paying jobs. And it all started with a little software pirates club and a Trash 80 [sniff]

Woz: A Compassionate Hacker (5)

maynard (3337) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835587)

Just as Woz says:

I designed the computers just to do it and show the world that it could be done and help them happen. Later Steve Jobs suggested starting a company to make money from it. I'd been giving out schematics for free at the Homebrew Computer Club. That's what I believed in. It was hard for me to even start the company when it looked like there might be real money in it.

He is the proverbial compassionate hacker. He was perfectly happy to just give out the schematics, and found ethical dilemma in building a business which might turn into a serious money maker. This is no different from the likes of rms, Linus, Eric Raymond, Larry Wall, and the now very large number of people out creating such wonderful things as gnome and KDE, GIMP, Python, Apache, and the list just goes on.

Doesn't it just blow your mind that this guy is out teaching high school instead of finding new ways to make himself richer? Don't you wish you could have been lucky enough tp have taken classes from this guy? He does these things because he enjoys the labor, and wants to help others enjoy the success of creating new things! What better lesson would you want your children to learn?

That he made enough money to comfortably live in ease for the rest of his life may be blind luck -- but don't you think he deserves it more than Gates, Jobs, Ellison, and all the other blowhards who probably haven't written a line of code in 20 years?

Woz is a man I can respect.

Personality type? (2)

cthonious (5222) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835593)

I would wager Woz is an INFP ... a rare type of person. He seems very cool, perhaps even uninterested in things unless he can give it an ethical purpose. I just kind of pick that up from him; the way he was uninterested in the business, and the fact that he teaches children now.

I wonder what his take on OSS is.

Stallman .. what do you think? INFJ? INTJ? INTP?

Another Woz story... (1)

John Fulmer (5840) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835594)

The story goes that for the Apple ][, Woz wanted a floppy drive to go with it, instead of using cassette tapes. He was strongly discouraged, since everyone knew that floppy drives and controllers were really expensive, and would cost several times the cost of the Apple ][ sold for.

He didn't listen and completely designed the first 5 1/4 floppy disk drive and controllers for personal computers . The reason he gave for his design, which was much faster and cheaper than anything previously available, was that he didn't know how to build a floppy drive, and didn't know that what he was doing was 'impossible'.

I always think of this when I start any project. The way everyone else has always done it is not necessarily the best way.


Note: I remember reading this in an A+ magazine some years ago. The only actual "proof" that I have is that the floppy chip in the Apple ][gs and most pre PowerPC Macs is called the IWM, or "Incredible Woz Machine", which he also designed.

jf

Coolest ever? (1)

dpg (5987) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835595)

Coolest ever is a matter of opinion :)

Bring back the Amiga.

Apple II (1)

fireproof (6438) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835596)

I remember learning typing in our school's lab -- we had several Apple IIs hanging around. I was so lazy, I coded Basic programs to help me complete whatever typing excercise we were doing at the time if I could . . .

The teacher thought I was amazing. I told her that I had learned how to type coding on my dad's old Atari 800 (later 800XL) at home.

Come to think of it, that actually IS how I ended up learning to type . . .

Woz wrote Integer BASIC (1)

Mr Z (6791) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835597)

Woz wrote Integer BASIC.

Applesoft BASIC was written by Microsoft. Part of Apple's deal w/ MS was to rename the Microsoft basic to Applesoft. Dunno if they had to pay extra for that, but considering that most of the machines of the day had MS basic but few proclaimed "Microsoft" directly, this makes some amount of sense.

--Joe

--

Re:Another Woz story... (1)

Mr Z (6791) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835598)

Actually, the drive recalibration you refer to was pretty common amongst alot of floppy drives. Every hear a PC recal the drive when it can't read a sector? Brrr-RRRRt!

The IWM (which I heard expanded to the "Incredible Woz Machine") was little more than a state-machine driven by some TTL gates and a PROM on the old Apple ]['s. (Somewhere in my vast collection of 'stuff', I have the schematics and PROM dump for upgrading from the 13-sector '5+3' format to the 16-sector '6+2' format.) But, it was a heck of a lot cheaper than the microcontroller-driven floppies of the day.

One drawback, of course, is that your CPU had to run at exactly NTSC colorburst divided by 3.5 in order for it to work. The various CPU speedup chips that came later all slowed down to this speed (1.023MHz) when accessing the disk. :-)

Another legend has it that the infernal Apple ][ memory map was much, much closer to being linear in the original design, but it required a couple more chips. Woz, interested in saving some $$, designed these chips out, introducing the world to the Venetian Blind fade effect so common in Apple ][ programs.

Ahh, the memories come rushing back... I could babble for hours on the intricasies of the Apple ][ hardware (but I won't).

--Joe

--

clarification, and FREE APPLE ][ TRIVIA! (1)

Mr Z (6791) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835599)

...infernal Apple ][ memory map ...

I meant, of course, the infernal Apple ][ display memory map, which was interleaved 3 or 4 different ways depending on which mode you were in.

(And, there were 8-byte holes every 120 bytes that you could use for program variables. How nice.)

Bonus Apple ][ command sequence trivia: What does THIS do? (Hint: Either Language Card or both sets of BASIC ROMs required.)

] INT
> CALL -151
* F666G
!

Or this?

] CALL -151
* FAA6G

--Joe

--

INFP/INTP (1)

Mr Z (6791) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835600)

It'd be cool if he were INFP. Then we'd have something cool in common (aside from a love for hacking, that is).

I'm INFP/INTP ... depending on mood or situation. More INTP in work matters, INFP in daily life.

The confused can go to www.keirsey.com [keirsey.com] to be suitably enlightened. (Or, if you're into the more traditional Meyers-Briggs (sp?) tests, you can find out there too. I think there's a x-based version called xmbti, but I don't remember for sure.)

--Joe

--

INFP/INTP (1)

Mr Z (6791) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835601)

It'd be cool if Woz were INFP. Then we'd have something cool in common (aside from a love for hacking, that is).

I'm INFP/INTP ... depending on mood or situation. More INTP in work matters, INFP in daily life.

The confused can go to www.keirsey.com [keirsey.com] to be suitably enlightened. (Or, if you're into the more traditional Meyers-Briggs (sp?) tests, you can find out there too. I think there's a x-based version called xmbti, but I don't remember for sure.)

--Joe

--

woz is so cool.. (1)

DarkClown (7673) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835605)

i remember in the very early eighties when the only online community i participated in was 'the source' and people were using this apple II program called locksmith to un-copyprotect apps and trade them - he wrote in to some journal about how he favored such practice, as it led to people learning about decryption and whatnot. these days (as back then) i purchase apps that are used for mission critical purpose that have have a license that dictate that this is the Only Legal Way, but increasingly i find this isn't the case. the mission critical apps are more and more open. beer and a shot for everyone!

/.'d, give it a rest + evt drag&drop (1)

korpiq (8532) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835608)

His hose is seemingly full of us by now :I
Shall we give it a rest?

Shame, I was hoping to find out what he's up to now except for the teaching and stuff. Would he like to do something for free software movement for instance?

Speaking of which, a pal back at work showed me a bit of a component library for VB. IMHO the concept was way cool. Now *nix is all about components laying around like legos in kids' rooms, but if we'd be able to provide a consistent visual interface for combining events, that would provide the end users with something useful.

I got the idea from the festival speech synthesizer I installed today. If there was an easy way for lusers to combine such events as arriving email with noisy notifications, that'd wake up some stir about what *nix can do for you on the desktop.

Required would be a linuxconf-style centralized event control panel with interfaces to such things as procmailrc, crontab, irc client, write (yes, the command), widget sets (add a visual widget builder), A/V players and speech synthesizers. Let people connect signals to responses with drag&drop. Add a, say, XML RPC service for remote connections and you'd get something a perl kiddie can build any day, just finally available for the average luser.

Gosh. Maybe I'll just sign in for KDE one of these nights...

Check them out... (1)

Tuor (9414) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835610)

Woz's comments are very good! I agree, Woz seems to be one of the coolest people, and he is shown well in the movie. It's good to see him get some recognition.

We must form a "WozClub" :-) Of course I submitted this last night... no hard feelings. Just want my 2p. :-)

Re:It was related to Quicktime... (1)

VValdo (10446) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835611)

I recall reading on Slashdot maybe a year back that the 150 million deal was an under-the-table type agreement having to do with a Quicktime-related lawsuit Apple was going to file (or had filed).

If I remember right, it had to do with either quicktime code appearing in microsoft products, or maybe something about microsoft making it so that quicktime movies wouldn't play well in Windows...

Anyone know the exact deal?
W

-------------------

Thanks Woz! (3)

VValdo (10446) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835614)

Haven't seen _Pirates_ yet, but just wanna reminisce just 1 sec about the late 70s/early 80s, being about 10 years old, using my friend's Apple II, and knowing my life would never be the same. I'd later get a Franklin Ace 1000 (Apple II clone w/lower case & 64k!!) and that was it, I was hooked. Jobs may have been running the business, but to us kids "Woz" WAS Apple.

Woz had an attitude which, I can't fully say how, sublimated itself into my young conciousness. He was a cool, almost fatherly role model who set an example of what it meant to do the "Right Thing"... A crazy, bearded silicon Jedi Knight, a Wizard...I'll never forget going to the computer store to check out the IIgs "Woz" limited edition and seeing his handwriting...thinking "how cool!"

Oh, and YES, who can forget (in no particular order) Locksmith, Dalton's Disk Disintigrator, The Beagle Bros., H-Wings in Sneakers, The Novation Apple Cat, Castle Wolfenstein, 80-column cards, GBBS, Ruski Duck, Cat-Fur, G-files, Space Eggs, The Wizard and the Princess, peeks & pokes, "cracked by" splash screens, Ascii Express, Lemonade Stand in lo-res, call -151, 300/202/212, tape drives... ah, those were the days.

Thanks Woz!
W

-------------------

yet another slashdotted site. (1)

eshefer (12336) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835623)

Yes,

history in the making: Slashdot users crash Steve Wosniak site.. :-|

Maybe rob will be the pirate in the sequal.. :-)

(can anyone mirror the thing, or post it as a comment?)
--------------------------------
( my music [mp3.com] )

Re:Old Woz stories (1)

eshefer (12336) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835624)

the kissinger story is true, and that friend was the other steve. I don't know the story about the spreadsheet. But I remember reading that he actualy wrote a version of visicalc that run faster then the original.. Maybe that's what you refare too.

As for why he was worring about getting fired from apple.. Hmmm.. look what happened to that other founder.
--------------------------------
( my music [mp3.com] )

Re:Old Woz stories - Correcting the correction (2)

A Big Gnu Thrush (12795) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835627)

I guess we'll all know who's a MacBigot now...

Quoting from my copy of "The Mac Bathroom Reader" (now renamed "Apple Confidential" [netcom.com] by Owen Linzmayer:

"I was on a plane going to a user group club in Fort Lauderdale to promote the Mac, along with some other members of the Mac team," recalls Wozniak. "Andy Hertzfield had just read Zap, a book about Atari which said that Steve Jobs designed Breakout. I explained to him that we both worked on it and got paid $700. Andy corrected me, 'No, it says here it was $5,000.' When I read in the book how Nolan Bushnell actually paid Steve $5,000, I just cried."

I don't doubt this story for an instant, but still, it's apocryphal at best. The fact that it has been butchered so many times in so many ways says a lot. It's like all of those quotes that have been attributed to Bill Gates ( e.g. "No one will ever need more than 640k" ).

What kind of authority is Zap! anyway?

Not in PA (1)

kabrakan (13409) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835630)

Thats not ture for(most) Pennsylvania residents! Nope, good ol' Microsoft paid off the state 20 million dollars so public schools can be filled with wintels! We use an advanced NT network that is always stable for us pupils!(sarcasm but got the facts straight note).

Re: What the hell is this? (1)

webslacker (15723) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835634)

Haw haw, you're joking, right? You're not serious about loving Microsoft, are you?

Also check this out (3)

webslacker (15723) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835637)

Suck.com [suck.com]

Re: Contract doesn't expire in 2001 (3)

webslacker (15723) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835638)

AFAIK, the commitment was that for 5 years, Microsoft would publish Office for Mac on parity with Office for Windows. Since the commitment was made in 1997, it follows that it'll expire in 2002. And yeah, I also wonder what'll happen after that...

MS doesn't really "own" a part of Apple (1)

Maktoo (16901) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835639)

This is the one thing that really seems to be coming out of PSV that is completely untrue. When Steve Jobs and Bill Gates announced, two years ago, that Microsoft would be investing $150 million in Apple it wasn't a "buy out". It's only an investment. A deal signed by the two companies for mutual gain.

Apple got a commitment from Microsoft for developement of their products (mainly Office)for the Mac platform. Since then, Microsoft has created a completely seperate division especially for development of Mac products (which is why the Office release dates between Mac/Win are not simultaneous). They also got the monetary boost of Microsoft investing $150 million in their stock... remember, Apple Computer has Billions in the bank, so it's not like MS bought up half the company.

In turn Microsoft got the assurance from Apple that they would not sue MS (for millions) for infringment on any patents (GUI or whatever). It was very much a mutually benefinial contract, some say (including myself) that it was a MUST for Apple to get but I think that MS is still better for it as well.

That contract expires in 2000 or 2001 I believe so it should be interesting to see what happens then.

Pheww... just thought I'd clear that up as best I could ;=)

Nice (2)

Straker Skunk (16970) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835640)

Wow... for someone who had such a big part in personal-computer history, he sure looks like a pretty down-to-earth guy.

Of course, with a name like Woz, you just can't help but be lovable :-) I, for one, can attest to having encountered a great many hamsters named after him.

P.S.: Sharp-looking site, too!

Re:Woz: a hacker's hacker (1)

Evro (18923) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835647)

You gotta respect a guy who single-handedly did so much to start the microcomputer industry. He made the computer *and* wrote the BASIC...

Do you mean invent BASIC for the Apple? BASIC was invented at Dartmouth by John Kemeny and Thomas Kurtz.

-----BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH-----
Blah.

This is more readable if you view source.. (1)

Evro (18923) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835648)

This is more readable if you view source. At least it is for me. I'm not good with huge blocks of text.

I find it sad that Woz acknowledges that Jobs really is that much of an asshole. I had just chalked it up to Hollywood exaggeration.

He was such a jerk that my girlfriend, when the movie was finished, said "I'm never going to buy another Mac again!" I laughed and said, "What do you mean another Mac?", to which she replied, "Well, I'm glad I just threw that one out!" (referring to the old Mac Classic she trashed last week).

-----BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH-----
Blah.

Re:Woz: a hacker's hacker (1)

Evro (18923) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835649)

Well, I don't know what you're trying to say. He might have written BASIC for the Apple. I am saying that he did not invent BASIC, which is what I thought you were trying to say. If that is not what you were trying to say, I apologize. If you ARE trying to say that he invented BASIC, you're wrong.

Here is one source. Search for basic.
http://www.irn.pdx.edu/~ke rlinb/myresearch/timeline.html [pdx.edu]

Like I said before, if I am misunderstanding you, I apologize.

-----BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH-----
Blah.

Re:This is more readable if you view source.. (1)

Evro (18923) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835650)

hey, I wasn't complaining. Just offering some advice. Thanks for the service!

-----BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH-----
Blah.

Re:Pirates Comic (1)

rm -rf /etc/* (20237) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835653)

Totally. I couldn't stop laughing, and it wasn't really because the comics were funny (well, not in the way you expect comics to be funny...)

Re:Woz: a hacker's hacker (1)

Upsilon (21920) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835657)

"I remember a quote from one of the head Intel guys saying the only use they could think of for a personal computer was for a woman to store her recipes on."

Isn't that about all most people do with their computers anyway?

Re:Coolest ever? (0)

amit_kr (22877) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835658)

hmmm... can't locate a way of posting a "root" comment :-(

anyways, is it just me or is there a pun in the post? Rob posted his "commnts" that are linked to "commets.html"...

hmmm....

amit

Temp Mirror (3)

digitac (24581) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835659)

I see the woz.org has been slashdotted. So I've posted a mirror at
http://www.discover.net/~still/
No images, just the important stuff. I expect woz.org to be back up soon.

Jonathan
--------
The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is the day they start making vacuum cleaners.

Re:Woz: a hacker's hacker (1)

delmoi (26744) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835663)

well, I certanly plan to be using a computer untill I die, (I don't know if I'd *want* to live without one :). I think the first poster was talking about babie boomers. They didn't grow up with them, and they don't relize how cool they really are.(although they are getting on the web more, I think 40% of AOL users use there computers for nothing but )

These are the same people who want to cencor the internet, unfortunetly....
_
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"

Or Ames, Iowa (1)

delmoi (26744) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835664)

Well, that sounds a lot better then ames highschool (the same place neil stephonson went, btw) and our ~300 node Multiuser network based on Mac0s. yep, mac clients, mac servers. it was hell.

The system loaded all your files the first time you logged on. it was great unless you had more then a couple hundred k of stuff, I was in a Media Art Class, and I had 24 megs of video stuff to load each time, it took 7 minutes...

The people running it were amazingly stupid. at the begning of the year they had a 3 gigs of storage... for 1700 students. it overflowed in about a week, and it didn't do it gracefully ether (it randomly deleted files)

One time, near the end of the first semester, the program that loaded all my files from the server crashed on me, and created an empty directory where My files should have been ('User Work') when I loged out, it resored *that* so I lost all my files.

they wern't doing backups

at least NT has *some* multiuser features, but really you can't try and do it without using a true multi user OS... it just shouldn't be done...
_
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"

Woz == the man (1)

delmoi (26744) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835665)

Actualy, he teaches Elemetary school, out of his garage, and pays for the employment of a few teachers with the little money that he does have(well, I wouldn't call it *little*, at least not for me...)

he does teach on Macs and AOL, though.

he also is one of the best tetris players in the world, Nintendo Power had to stop taking his name, after he consistanly trounced the compition...

They had a pretty big artical about him in a recent issue of wired. He was, and still is, the man :)


_
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"

don't you mean 31337? (1)

delmoi (26744) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835666)

/\/\IcRoSoFt Rul3s d00dz!!
_
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"

Re:Old Woz stories (1)

delmoi (26744) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835667)

I think what your refering to was a deal for a circut board for Atari.

Atari told Jobs that he would get $4000, $7000 if he used less then 40 chips.

Jobs told woz that he would get $500 (or somthing like that, the $ amouts I'm not sure of, but there was about an order of magnintude diffrence) if the board was less then 36 chips, $700. Woz spent night after night optimizing the board, but he could only get it to somthing like 38 chips.

Woz got $250, jobs got $6750

Atari could not figure out how the f*sk the board worked, and had to design another one :)


_
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"

minor clarification (1)

delmoi (26744) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835668)

he dosn't actualy teach a whole elementary school, its a summer program with the local school district, or somthing

he volenteres at the school, and pays for a few other teachers out of his own pockets. he pays for all of this

he's not exactly a poor guy...
_
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"

Re:Woz: a hacker's hacker (1)

extrasolar (28341) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835675)

No, he ****wrote**** the BASIC. At least I think. Did he write the Integer BASIC? I thought Microsoft wrote Applesoft BASIC.

--

I hate to demean the guy (1)

extrasolar (28341) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835676)

Am I the only one who sees Woz as a little full of himself judgeing by his web page?

--

Gerald is totally e1ite! (1)

garyrich (30652) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835685)

That's it, I'm sending a resume to Micorsoft.

s/Microsoft/Micorsoft (1)

nmarshall (33189) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835688)

do YOU see the diffrents?

nmarshall
#include "standard_disclaimer.h"
R.U. SIRIUS: THE ONLY POSSIBLE RESPONSE

Apple I (4)

fremen (33537) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835690)

Did anyone see this? This was buried a little more deeply on his page, and refers to the auction of the first Apple I.


WOZ: I wanted to give the first Apple I, on a PC board, to Liza LO*OP of the LO*OP Center in Cotati, California. I took Steve [Jobs] up there and she showed us how she rolled a PDP-11 around to elementary schools and told the students how a computer was just a collection of programs written by people and didn't have a mind of it's own. 4th through 6th graders. I admired this and wanted to give her the first one. Jobs actually made me buy it, if you can believe that, for $300. I did and gave it to Liza. The one being advertised must be number 2.


This is very interesting. I wonder if the auction house realizes that it isn't selling the original Apple I like they claim? Supposedly, Jobs had identified it as being authentic, so I guess Woz disagrees. Hmmmm...

Re:Old Woz stories (3)

razorwire (35010) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835694)

One more story I've read (and I don't know if this is true) is that during their early days together, Jobs told Woz they'd split a payment 50-50. But he lied about the amount and told Woz it was $500, when it was actually twice that, while pocketing the rest himself. Apparently Woz found this out, and things were never the same between them again. (Can somebody confirm if this is true?).

The full story was published in Next Generation magazine a few months back. Jobs was working for Atari at the time, and the company was designing the mainboard for the Breakout arcade game. Breakout was a pre-microprocessor machine, built with discrete logic, so it was to Atari's advantage to optimize the design to use as few chips as possible. Jobs took the problem to Woz, who did a phenomenal job of optimizing the board in exchange for half of Jobs' bonus. Jobs told Woz that he got $500 out of it and paid him accordingly... but Jobs really got $5000! Woz literally cried when he found out, several years later, what his friend had done.

The punchline (if you can call it that) was that Woz's changes worked, but were totally incomprehensible to the engineers at Atari, so his design never went into production. Sad but true.
--

I named my hard drive "Woz" a long time ago (1)

stew1 (40578) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835699)

Bill Gates has said that he's going to give away most of his fortune. $90 billion is a pretty good chunk of change and should be able to affect some change for the better in our world (NOT stuff like giving away Wintels to libraries; more like his donations to those immunization efforts).

Still... It's hard to think of a high profile person who embodies the word "charitable" more than Woz. He's like the Giving Tree.

Also, some people kind of pooh-pooh his technical innovations. Well, last year Microsoft unveiled an imaging technology that was supposed to increase the readability of text on LCD screens dramatically. Believe it or not, Woz invented the same technique just a few years before them. Read it and you will understand why Woz is a genuine wizard.

http://grc.com/cleartype.htm [grc.com]


Jon

Re:Old Woz stories (1)

stew1 (40578) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835700)

Yes, the story is true, although I think you got it mixed up a bit. The deal is that Jobs sold his VW minibus and Woz sold his HP calculator and they used the money to start Apple. Jobs sold Woz's calculator, lied about how much he got for it, and pocketed the difference. I read an interview with Woz last year somewhere on the web where he confirmed this story.

I think that Steve Jobs is a brilliant visionary who honestly wants to create cool stuff (as opposed to Bill Gates who just wants to be rich), but I lost quite a bit of respect for Jobs as a person when I heard about this story.


Jon

Re:'im just a humble guy with my own domain name' (1)

stew1 (40578) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835701)

Actually, that kind of annoyed me a little, too. Still, it's mind-boggling when you think of everything he's done, and he's mostly written off. And although the movie made him out to be a good guy, they didn't really say much of anything about his technical innovations. I think that maybe peeved him a little. Credit's due where credit's due.

Jon

Re:Old Woz stories - Correcting the correction (1)

stew1 (40578) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835702)

Really? I coulda' sworn it was over the HP calculator. But you've got a paper source and a direct quote and I can't remember where I saw the interview, so I'll trust you over my cobwebbed brain. Dankesch:on.

Jon

Re:Old Woz stories (2)

stew1 (40578) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835705)

Ruthless exploiter and brilliant visionary are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I'm not arguing that Jobs was more than a mediocre techie (although, he was hireable by Atari...). But consider:

Apple - graphics, keyboard, and BASIC
PARC - limited GUI, mouse, computing by metaphor
NeXT - microkernel, advanced OOP libraries
Pixar - digital media done well
Apple - iMac - the first viable step towards a network computer

Jobs seems to have a pretty good knack for seeing something cool and then imagining how it could be even cooler, and exploited more fully. He's tried to articulate his ideas and sell people on them. That's what a visionary does, and it's hard to think of anyone else in the computer industry who does it better than Jobs. Contrast Jobs' ventures with Microsoft, which has shown itself to be a purely reactive, paranoid corporation.

To a certain extent, Jobs reminds me of Miles Davis. He's restless, demanding, smart, and temperamental. I love Davis' music but I'm not sure it'd've been easy to be friends with him.

Btw, he's only come of his business skills of late. He's learned those the hard way and I think he's still probably learning. And if he cared so much about business, he'd be worth a lot more than he is now (ie. he gets paid $1/yr. by Apple and he dumped off all but one of his shares of Apple stock long before they rebounded; not that he isn't a billionaire...).

So, y'know, don't want this to be a stereotypical "Macs suck!" thread or anything; this is just how I see things.

Jon

Woz: a hacker's hacker (1)

Sun Tzu (41522) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835707)

You gotta respect a guy who single-handedly did so much to start the microcomputer industry. He made the computer *and* wrote the BASIC...

Still, to me, the most amazing story from Woz history is that HP wasn't interested in his computer design -- reportedly because he wasn't an engineer. I guess Apple's early success says a great deal about Woz and HP.

Re:Woz: a hacker's hacker (1)

Coward, Anonymous (55185) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835720)

HP wasn't interested in his computer design because it was a home computer and nobody used computers in their home at the time, only businesses used computers. It was like proposing a home forklift. There were a few geeks with computers, but they represented an insignificant part of the population, and they had them for the cool factor, not because there were many useful things they could do with them. Even the executives at Intel couldn't imagine that people would want to use computers in their homes. I remember a quote from one of the head Intel guys saying the only use they could think of for a personal computer was for a woman to store her recipes on.

It's tough now to think of a world without computers, but it wasn't too long ago when nobody owned a computer. As they say, hindsight is always 20/20.

what kids today work with (1)

colmore (56499) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835725)

actually my school still uses the Apple ]['s that they bought in the 80's. The sad fact is, there is no budget in the public schools for good technology education

Re:Yeah, but not THAT great (1)

TerryMathews (57165) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835729)

couldn't he be putting it towards good purposes (you know, that whole "end world hunger" thing?
The last time I checked, teachers are paid very little for what they do, which may be one of the most important jobs on the planet. C'mon, give the man a break. He is trying to instill in our country's youth a love of computers. What greater good can their be than to try to train your successor, for lack of a better phrase? If I had to deal with Gates and Jobs, I wouldn't want to build computers anymore either. I'd imagine they ruined it for him.

Re:Schematics (3)

TerryMathews (57165) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835730)

Hey, if those are still out.. does that mean I can build my own Apple I?
I don't know this for sure, but I think the chips that the Apple I used are hard to come by anymore (Like memory chips, processors, etc.) I'd imagine that your best chance would be to partially redesign it to use modern-day, easily available parts. That might be something worth writing to Woz about.
Oh, wait a sec, it might violate US Supercomputer Export laws... Sorry, couldn't resist.

Re:Schematics (1)

Shadowcaster (58728) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835731)

You should post the schematics for the ][ in a printable (high-res graphic) format for us. :)

Re:'im just a humble guy with my own domain name' (1)

Shadowcaster (58728) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835732)

Having that post moderated down is hardly the mindset desireable for OSS advocates, I agree. But don't you think your post would carry just a *little* more weight were it not posted AC?

I also noticed that he seemed a tad full of himself, but the way I see it (from reading up on all of this) it's well deserved. If he were more blatant about it, or threw it in your face like "Ha ha asshole" then I'd have to write him off as some guy with too much ego, but the general feel of his writing wasn't like a brag. It evoked a bit of a feeling of awe for me actually, of the type "I wish I could do that so easily". :)

Re:The way I see it (1)

fete (61267) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835737)

The cost of the operating system is just a fraction of the total cost of having the machine on an employee's desk. The hardware costs, the network costs, the time-the-worker-spends-futzing-around costs, the help desk costs. All in all, the operating system itself is a tiny part of the cost of the machine. Particularly if averaged over a three or four year life of the machine.

The whole package costs thousands. The OS at most a hundred. Going to a 'free' OS, with retraining costs, etc., would be greater.

Re:MS doesn't really "own" a part of Apple (1)

Lucius Lucanius (61758) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835740)

The key point is that it was non-voting stock. Essentially, it was a symbolic gesture that underlined the new relationship.

150 m. is pocket change to MS, with 12 (or is it 15 now?) billion in surplus liquid cash reserve. It's not that big an infusion of capital for Apple either, though it was making a loss at the time, so it certainly helped.

It helped Apple tremendously more as a gesture from MS of "we are now behind them and won't let them fail".

Of course, if Apple had gone bankrupt, I suspect Bill would be pretty pissed off at throwing all that money away. :)

L.

Re:Old Woz stories - Correcting the correction (1)

Lucius Lucanius (61758) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835741)


Maybe both stories are true? :O

L.

Old Woz stories (4)

Lucius Lucanius (61758) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835743)


In an article (I think it was in Byte) there's a story about Woz going back to college to continue his academic education. Of course, by then Apple was a billion dollar company so he enrolled under a false name. During an economics class, the lecturer went on a rant about how companies only try to cheat and steal from customers with bad products, and Woz stood up to disagree, but was cut down by the teacher. He says something along the lines of - "Here I was, the founder of one of the most successful companies in history, and he was telling me I didn't know what I was talking about and I had to just sit there and listen." Cracked me up.

Another really good one - Woz hacked the phone to make free international calls, and as a prank, he and his buddies called up the Pope. The bishop who answered asked them who wanted to speak to him in the middle of the night.

Woz: "Henry Kissinger".
Bishop (now suspicious) : "You don't sound like Henry Kissinger".

There's another story he relates about writing a spreadsheet at Apple, and being the nice guy he is, he's nervous about the deadline and worried about being fired. Woz. Worried about being fired from Apple. Well, he had some Star Wars contacts call his boss and tantalize him with some rare memoribilia. I forget what exactly it was, but it was a pretty funny trick he played.

One more story I've read (and I don't know if this is true) is that during their early days together, Jobs told Woz they'd split a payment 50-50. But he lied about the amount and told Woz it was $500, when it was actually twice that, while pocketing the rest himself. Apparently Woz found this out, and things were never the same between them again. (Can somebody confirm if this is true?).

L.

Pirates Comic (2)

gerald_holmes (62911) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835746)

Oh boy if you wants to see a cartoon I mades for pirates of the siliconium valleys you should looks at http://www.fre eyellow.com/members7/geraldholmes/MScartoon1.html [freeyellow.com] its pretty funny theres also other cartoons and some good stuff about how Bill Gates is the smartest man ever to live ever.

Re:Thanks Woz! (1)

MrSparkle (127251) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835752)

You forgot the biggest one of all:

Eaglesoft.

Brought to you by the U.S. Postal service

Jesse

Re:Schematics (1)

Didel (177906) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835753)

I don't see why not, I have an original Apple II reference manual that has the schematics in the back, as well as some source code.

Here are Woz's comments. (1)

Didel (177906) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835754)

I've received a few e-mails about the recent movie "Pirates of Silicon Valley" and I thought I'd share some of my responses with you. Q From e-mail: I just had to laugh at the part in the movie where someone called Dial-A-Joke. I remember calling that number to hear the joke of the day. Was it really you who did this? WOZ: Experimenting with blue boxes to make calls anywhere in the world while at Berkely in 1971-1972, I encountered a few Dial-a-Jokes in the world. I never used the blue box to save money on phone calls, I was an ethical hacker. So while working as an engineer at Hewlett Packard, designing scientific calculators, I started the first Dial-a-Joke in the San Francisco Bay Area. This was before you could buy answering machines or even telephones. I had to rent a very expensive machine made for theaters, and eventually had to quit because I couldn't afford it. I got so many calls that I had to keep changing the number. Anyone with a similar number would get 100 calls a day. The best known numbers that I had were (408) 255-6666 and (408) 575-1625. I operated Dial-a-Joke out of my Cupertino apartment, where I did a lot of the Apple designing (I designed every bit and wrote all the code including BASIC myself). I used a thick Eastern accent, like Russian, and used the name Stanley Zebrezuskinitsky when I took live calls. Q From e-mail: Hi Mr. Woz, I just wanted to say that I just saw Pirates of Silicon Valley and was amazed at what went on way back when. I commend you for remaining the same person you've always been rather than turning into a money hungry, stuck up person like so many others do. It's so interesting to me that you made the computer that made Apple even possible, but it was Steve Job's that seemed to take all the credit. Was the scene with the man being interviewed really true? Did Steve Job's actually demean a potential employee?? I have to say, that they portrayed him as a real jerk who was very demeaning to his employees if they did not perform to his liking. And actually, Bill Gates was no better. They were and maybe still are hungry for the power. The other thing that I found interesting and didn't realize was that Microsoft now owns part of Apple. Steve Jobs is definitely a brilliant business man but after seeing what Bill Gates has done I'd have to say that he's even more savvy! Anyway, those were just a few thoughts I had. I was just really impressed with your character and how you've remained the same person that you were when you created that first computer. I hope you don't mind my two cents. : - ) WOZ: It's funny, but even with all the things that aren't said outright, a great number of people, like yourself, saw a lot of things in that movie that are totally true. The personalities were very accurately portrayed. I designed the computers just to do it and show the world that it could be done and help them happen. Later Steve Jobs suggested starting a company to make money from it. I'd been giving out schematics for free at the Homebrew Computer Club. That's what I believed in. It was hard for me to even start the company when it looked like there might be real money in it. I often wonder why I remained the person I always wanted to be, from late high school on. I wanted to be an engineer and then a 5th grade teacher and I wanted a computer someday and I wanted to be nice to people and I wanted to tell and make jokes and I wanted a family and home. It couldn't have come truer for me. Watch for more comments in the coming days. What exactly were some of my important contributions? Click here to find out. These are Woz's comments, not my own.

Re:This is more readable if you view source.. (1)

Didel (177906) | more than 15 years ago | (#1835755)

yeah, sorry about the readability issue, but I figured, better than nothing.
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