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Original BeOS Developer Now at Trolltech

ScuttleMonkey posted more than 8 years ago | from the shakeups-and-new-blood dept.

255

UltimaGuy writes "Benoit Schillings, co-creator of the Be operating system and former CTO of Openwave, has been appointed to the newly created position of chief technology officer (CTO) at Trolltech. In the meantime, Trolltech has also joined the new mobile OSDL initiative."

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Issues With Trolltech Lower Excitement (5, Informative)

gbulmash (688770) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823583)

Unless you're doing pure open source GPL'ed programming, entry level for a version of QT you can use for commercial code is nearly $1800. You can't even use the free version to get your sea legs under you, because the license does not allow you to use code you wrote with the free version in the paid versions.

Microsoft, Borland, etc. usually have an entry level version of most of their programming products (with which you can still write proprietary code) that is less than my car payment. Entry level on QT is more than my mortgage.

Yes, they support open source, but unless you're an open source coder or a well-funded enterprise coder, they basically tell you to F off. I don't like that and it detracts from any excitement I could have about these announcements.

- Greg

Re:Issues With Trolltech Lower Excitement (2, Interesting)

NormalVisual (565491) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823617)

I like Qt, but I'll agree it's pricey, and that's a per-seat cost. I'm currently researching options for a commercial product that will need to run on either a Linux or BSD platform, and TrollTech's pricing precludes them from even being considered. Unless you absolutely *have* to have cross-platform source, it's hard to justify that kind of money.

Re:Issues With Trolltech Lower Excitement (2, Informative)

eosp (885380) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823679)

Or the cheap solution...use WxWidgets.

Not exactly. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13823739)

Under Linux, wxWidgets is just a wrapper around either plain-old X11 or GTK. I know that wxWidgets has a fairly liberal license, but if you're releasing under Linux using GTK you must abide by GTK's license, as well. Is GTK totally free, or does it cost money for use in proprietary software?

Re:Not exactly. (2, Informative)

NormalVisual (565491) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823779)

GTK is LGPL, so as I understand the license it should be okay to use it in both free and proprietary projects.

IANAL, this isn't legal advice, etc....

Re:Not exactly. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13824062)

Though if you go that route you are still using GTK, which blows.

Re:Not exactly. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13824084)

But not nearly as much as your mom. And she's better at blowing than GTK.

Re:Issues With Trolltech Lower Excitement (3, Informative)

xfmr_expert (853170) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823703)

Look again...that "Per Platform". If you want Linux\Unix and Windows, it'll cost you $2,990 for the "Desktop Light" edition per seat.

Re:Issues With Trolltech Lower Excitement (3, Insightful)

grasshoppa (657393) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823635)

So wait, your biggest problem with trolltech is they don't have a price point for you?

It's their software, right? They have the right to make money off of their own work, right? And license it however they choose?

Re:Issues With Trolltech Lower Excitement (2, Insightful)

qbwiz (87077) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823642)

Perhaps, but we have the right not to use it.

Re:Issues With Trolltech Lower Excitement (4, Insightful)

NormalVisual (565491) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823859)

Trolltech most certainly has the right to price their product at whatever point they want to, and to impose whatever restrictions they care to. I don't have any argument at all regarding that, but I don't feel that *for me* it's anything resembling a reasonable price, given my specific needs. For someone else that needs to have their cross-platform capability or other features that Qt offers, TT's pricing may represent a drop in the bucket compared to what development would cost for rolling their own or using someone else's libraries, and thus it would be a good buy for them.

Everyone considering Qt needs to weigh the costs against the benefit of using it, and proceed accordingly. For my particular requirements, Qt is simply too expensive to consider, and since I can't use it professionally, any OSS stuff I happen to release will pretty much be guaranteed to be non-Qt as well. I doubt this will make the slightest difference to anyone but myself, but I can't imagine I'm the only developer in the same situation.

Re:Issues With Trolltech Lower Excitement (1)

KillShill (877105) | more than 8 years ago | (#13824109)

he has every right to complain.

just like you enumerate their right to sell it at any price point they want.

so what exactly are you trying to say, then?

that he should shut up and accept it?

complaining is a god given right (or nature given if you're into that instead).

Re:Issues With Trolltech Lower Excitement (1)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823637)

You can use the free version to learn QT just can't work on your real project with it... I have to wonder how often that rule is ignored.

Re:license issues (2, Informative)

benjamindees (441808) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823639)

the license does not allow you to use code you wrote with the free version in the paid versions.

Sure it does. It just doesn't allow you to distribute that code. You can sit down, write all the programs you'd like with the free version, test it out yourself, then switch to the commercial version when it's time to release.

Re:license issues (4, Informative)

nighty5 (615965) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823858)


Sure it does. It just doesn't allow you to distribute that code. You can sit down, write all the programs you'd like with the free version, test it out yourself, then switch to the commercial version when it's time to release.


This is actually *NOT* the case. As per the QT license, you must BUY the licence before you start coding the application.

Refer to the license FAQ: http://www.trolltech.com/developer/faqs/index.html ?catid=1953&id=182 [trolltech.com]


"Can we use the Open Source Edition while developing our non-opensource application and then purchase commercial licenses when we start to sell it?

No. Our commercial license agreements only apply to software that was developed with Qt under the commercial license agreement. They do not apply to code that was developed with the Qt Open Source Edition prior to the agreement. Any software developed with Qt without a commercial license agreement must be released as Open Source software."

Re:license issues (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13823884)

To highlight, its the commercial license wording that excludes developing under the GPL and getting a license at the last minute, not the wording of the GPL (which many people assume after reading the F.A.Q.)

Re:license issues (1)

Trejkaz (615352) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823896)

As per the QT license, you must BUY the licence before you start coding the application.

Does playing around with a toolkit to learn how it works count as writing the application these days?

Re:license issues (1)

nighty5 (615965) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823920)

You can absolutely learn the toolkit on the opensource license, for free, which is what I'm doing right now. I'll buy a license when I start coding for the commercial app.

Am happy to fork out the $1800 as the toolkit itself is going to save me thousands of dollars in development work I that I don't have to do...

Re:license issues (2, Interesting)

Arandir (19206) | more than 8 years ago | (#13824248)

No it doesn't. Play around to your hearts content. When you're ready to code for real, then buy the license. Simple. If you're not playing around, then you need to make up your mind quickly if you're going to release it open source or not.

To be blunt: If you're writing code you intend to release under a proprietary license, you need to buy the proprietary license. Of course, that's exactly what Trolltech just told you, but it didn't seem that you heard.

Re:license issues (1)

Trejkaz (615352) | more than 8 years ago | (#13824427)

No, I heard. I said that because the previous poster had replied to a message which basically said "testing is free", with "no, you're wrong." Clearly he wasn't wrong.

Re:license issues (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13824020)

Plus, even if you were to develop an app for internal use you cannot go from open source to closed. Trolltech's commercial license is setup this way - once open source, always open source.

http://www.trolltech.com/developer/faqs/index.html ?catid=1953&id=190 [trolltech.com]

Re:license issues (1)

John Hurliman (152784) | more than 8 years ago | (#13824074)

How exactly do you write code with the Qt toolkit? Using both the free and commercial versions all I got was a library to link against, some compiling tools, and a GUI designer that I don't use.

#include <QApplication>
#include <QPushButton>

int main(int argc, char *argv[]) {
        QApplication app(argc, argv);

        QPushButton hello("Can anyone guess what license I was coded under?");
        hello.resize(300, 30);

        hello.show();
        return app.exec();
}

If anyone can send more information about this Qt IDE that you develop code in let me know.

Re:license issues (1)

Fizzl (209397) | more than 8 years ago | (#13824462)

I think they are misinterpreting the GPL. Or possibly have written that answer to obscure it, but still actually saying what the GPL says.
It is OK to develop using the free QT, as long as you do not release anything outside. No beta testing either. Or multiple developers.
As long as it is only in your hands, it is ok to develop and use it. You know, when you are the only one holding the binary and the sources, you are fully complying to the GPL as long as you do not give it to anyone else. The second you give it to someone else, you are required to also give the source and the second person is now eligible to redistribute the whole thing to whomever he wants.

Re:license issues (2, Insightful)

Spy Hunter (317220) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823922)

You can sit down, write all the programs you'd like with the free version, test it out yourself, then switch to the commercial version when it's time to release.

No, you can't. You can't "switch" code you developed using the GPL version to the commercial version. It's not against the GPL; it is against the commercial license that TrollTech sells QT under. You can write all the programs you'd like with the free version, but you can never ever use any of that code with the commercial version of QT.

The reason for this is that QT has no run-time licenses or per-copy royalties. You only ever pay for the development you do. After that you never have to pay TrollTech again, no matter how many copies you distribute. Obviously if you could develop all your code using the GPL version, buy one commercial license, compile once and release, then TrollTech would be out of business in short order.

Re:Issues With Trolltech Lower Excitement (1, Insightful)

civilizedINTENSITY (45686) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823662)

Well I don't see the problem. Either you "Contribute to the continued development of the product by purchasing commercial licenses from Trolltech", or you "Contribute to the Open Source community by placing your application under an Open Source license (e.g. the GPL)." What is the problem? That you don't want to contribute your code to the GPL, but you want to use a GPLed codebase? Isn't that akin to stealing? So you don't want to use the GPL? Then pay for the commercial license. Sounds like you want it both ways, to me. Ok, how about this? You get the Free version and play with it. Any work you do would be GPLed if you distribute it, and isn't available for use later with the commercial license, but you can testdrive it. If you like it, then pony up the cost of the commercial license, and don't use the test programs you wrote. No big deal.

Borland entry-level license (1)

Latent Heat (558884) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823793)

I believe the minimum price point to do anything commercial with Borland is about a grand. The old $95 dollar standard versions, if they exist anymore, used to allow commercial use if the restricted features allowed what you wanted, but I understand they changed all of that.

Gee, what ever happened to the $49.95 Turbo Pascal? Borland, we hardly know you.

Re:Issues With Trolltech Lower Excitement (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13823855)

Why is $1800 considered a lot of money for a programmer?

If you're looking at producing something commercial, then it's a perfectly fine investment.
plenty of other industries and interests have costs similar or much larger than that - and they don't have the same prospect for making the money back as a good commercial application does.
By the way - to get your sea legs under you, there's an evaluation version. You can also talk to Trolltech about your specific situation and your possible options.

Every time a TrollTech article comes up, there's the same whiny troll about the price of the license, well guess what? It's a fucking GOOD thing that you can't afford it, because we don't WANT your crappy $15 shareware anyway.

And god help you if you ever want to be a musician: "waaahhhh, why do guitars cost so much?" "waaaahhhh, why do I have to pay $5,000+ for sequencers, effects and soft-synths?" or alternatively - "wahhhhhh, why does it cost $500 an hour to record in this studio?"

Re:Issues With Trolltech Lower Excitement (3, Informative)

be-fan (61476) | more than 8 years ago | (#13824195)

Seriously. $1800 isn't a lot of money. In many engineering fields (mechanical, aerospace, maybe chemical and electrical), a full suite of software for a single engineer can cost well over $20,000. Something like CATIA's product-life-management suite starts at $12,000, and can cost over $30,000 per seat over 5 years when maintainence and support are factored in. Heck, even something like Matlab will cost you $2000 for the initial license, then another $4000-$7000 for all the plugins you need for your particular field.

Re:Issues With Trolltech Lower Excitement (2, Insightful)

Arandir (19206) | more than 8 years ago | (#13824258)

I don't know any full time professional US/EU software developers that make less than $50,000. Most get paid a heck of a lot more than that. Surely they can afford a tiny $1800 license.

Qt isn't for part time shareware authors.

Re:Issues With Trolltech Lower Excitement (2)

billybob2 (755512) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823883)

because the license does not allow you to use code you wrote with the free version in the paid versions.

WRONG! Please mod parent flamebait.

You're confusing paid versions with proprietary versions. You can make money [gnu.org] selling paid versions of Free and Open Source Software.

QT [trolltech.com] is licenced under the GPL [gnu.org] , which is a Free and Open Source Software license. It forces software vendors to share the source code, but does not prohibit vendors from selling binaries.

Anyone (ranging from independent programmers to multibllion dollar companies) can create Free and Open Source Software built on QT and can sell the resultant software without giving a penny to Trolltech. Just look at Novell SUSE Linux [novell.com] , Linspire [linspire.com] , RedHat [redhat.com] and any other commercial distro that ships with KDE [kde.org] . These companies (and anyone else for that matter, including you!) can sell the binaries -- all they have to do is provide the source code to the user, so that the user can customize the software for his/her needs.

If you want to keep your source code secret and build proprietary applications that lock in users, prevent them from making modifications, restrict their rights, take away control of their computers, then naturally you need to pay royalties. In the world of spyware, DRM-infestation, and Treacherous Computing no proprietary software should be trusted.

In other words: If a company does the moral thing for the users and society, the company gets a freebie. If they're unscrupulous, then they better pay up.

Re:Issues With Trolltech Lower Excitement (2, Informative)

Trejkaz (615352) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823911)

It forces software vendors to share the source code, but does not prohibit vendors from selling binaries.

It's actually better than that. It forced the vendor to share the source code to the same parties with which they shared the binaries. In other words if you only have, say, half a dozen very trustworthy clients, or clients who would never even think to ask for the source code, then you're in a fairly good place.

On the other hand, it only takes one client with knowledge of the GPL to redistribute your code to the entire world... but that's another story.

Re:Issues With Trolltech Lower Excitement (1)

elhedran (768858) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823977)

Entry level on QT is more than my mortgage.

Wow! thats one cheap mortgage. Where on earth do you live! I mean even if you are talking repayments, $1800 over 25 years is what? $10 a month with interest?

Re:Issues With Trolltech Lower Excitement (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13824005)

Are you that stupid? It's pretty obvious he's talking monthly.

Re:Issues With Trolltech Lower Excitement (1)

10Ghz (453478) | more than 8 years ago | (#13824471)

I was wondering how long it would take for this nonsense to surface itself. And it didn't take long: First message!

In short: what is the "issue" with Qt? the fact that it licensed under the GPL. And why is that a problem? Because it makes it difficult to write proprietary software using Qt (you have to pay TT in order to do so).

Hello, why exactly is that a problem? Since when did free software movement turn from creating great software that is Free, in to something meant to satisfy the whims of pushers of proprietary software? The people who whine about Qt and it's license are those who want to use it in order to earn money, but they don't want to give anyone else anything in return. They don't want to share the code and they don't want to pay TrollTech. Why exactly should we care one bit about those people/companies? In my book, they are selfish assholes who insist that others must give them kick-ass tools for free, but they don't want to give anything back in return. I guess Open Source and Free Software is great only as long as you can use it to earn money, without giving anything in return. But the moment you are required to do something in return, we get endless bithing and moaning.

And the funny thing is that people demanded that TrollTech must make their toolkit free software. TrollTech did so. And now that TrollTech is telling people to make their software Free Software as well, those same people whine and moan! First they demanded TT to free their toolkit. And when TT demanded the same thing from them in return, they cry and whine! What a bunch of hypocritical assholes! "Do as I say, not as I do!". They demand the right to earn money from Qt, but they want to deny TT the same right.

If you whine about Qt's license (GPL), then I guess you really care about proprietary software, not free software. As a supporter of free software, I don't give a flying fuck about your problems. Why don't you go push your proprietary crap elsewhere? We have enough problems with Microsoft, do we need MORE proprietary crap?

I predict (3, Funny)

eobanb (823187) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823599)

I predict three types of comments here...

1) BeOS was a great multimedia OS

2) Trolltech's licencing schemes suck

3) Gnome vs. KDE

Re:I predict (1)

civilizedINTENSITY (45686) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823678)

How about Linux/Java vs Linux/QT for embedded apps?

Re:I predict (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13823698)

BeOS was way ahead of its time, and was particularly well-suited for multimedia applications. I think its main failure was the user interface. The learning curve was just too steep for people used to Windows (~90%). Perhaps they would have hit a bigger market if they went with something at least resembling Windows, such as Gnome or KDE. They probably thought the QT license was too restrictive (costs more than a fucking kidney transplant), and Gnome looks like total shit. So they whip up this Fisher Price interface and fail to gain any significant market penetration. A couple years later, and they're gone.

Re:I predict (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13823816)

I think its main failure was the user interface. The learning curve was just too steep for people used to Windows(~90%). Perhaps they would have hit a bigger market if they went with something at least resembling Windows, such as Gnome or KDE.

What the fuck have you been sniffing? If you could use windows, or MacOS, there was (virtually) no learning curve to use BeOS.

Re:I predict (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13823967)

Whoosh!

What was BeOS really like? (1)

Latent Heat (558884) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823838)

What was BeOS really like, apart from there were no applications for it and no one used it?

One one hand there is Windows, which sucks monkey's balls when it comes to soft real time like multimedia with respect to issues such as control over task/thread scheduling, granularity of same, and Windows deciding to take siesta's for 10's of ms (we are not talking about any kind of hard guaranteed real time). On the other hand there is Linux, and I suppose there are real-time versions and frame buffer graphics and such, and yeah, yeah Linux is better in security and other aspects, but from what I have seen, Linux makes Windows look good on the gaming/soft realtime/attempt to be responsive front.

I had heard that BeOS was in a class by itself for soft real time. What was it like? I also heard that BeOS apps were quite thoroughly multi-threaded. What was it like writing a multi-threaded GUI app? Was it particularly hard?

Re:What was BeOS really like? (5, Interesting)

dlockamy (597001) | more than 8 years ago | (#13824019)

Hmm, where to start?

As far as soft real time? Back in the day I ran Be on a P2 350 2xx Megs ram. I could easily play 10-20 mp3s at one time with all playing smoothly while I ran several other programs. Sure there was no reason to do that, but it looked cool. Same goes for video. I remember the cool thing at one time was to play 50 or so copies of the Phantom Menace trailor.
You really could run the full system to 100% and still have damn good GUI responce. There's still no system (that I've found) that runs as smooth as Be did in 1998.

The great thing about programming was that the threading was to embedded in the system that you didn't know you where even using it. Take some time to browse the BeBook [beunited.org] . It was a great api.

Re:What was BeOS really like? (1)

nyteroot (311287) | more than 8 years ago | (#13824276)

Err..
Linux makes Windows look good on the gaming/soft realtime/attempt to be responsive front


You must be kidding. Using fluxbox and mplayer, I can have mplayer fullscreen on one workspace and switch around workspaces including the mplayer one just as fast as if mplayer weren't even running. Alt-tabbing between WMP and other applications on the same machine in Windows is painfully slow. For that matter, I can do the same with Starcraft and WINE.

Re:I predict (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13823803)

4) SCO changed their name to Trolltech?

You missed the obvious (1)

toupsie (88295) | more than 8 years ago | (#13824037)

4) Apple was smart for integrating NeXT and Jobs instead of BeOS.

/ducks

Re:You missed the obvious (1)

tautog (46259) | more than 8 years ago | (#13824055)

I agree. NeXt was mature and ready for primetime (look at the resume).

In any case, BeOS is (was) way cool and much more innovative than anything else out there. Super fast, virtually crash proof (no REALLY) and very easy to use, once you left the LEGACY mindset behind.

Re:I predict (1)

KillShill (877105) | more than 8 years ago | (#13824129)

i wish there were more people like you in every thread.

no, seriously.

yeah i'll be here all week but what does that have to do with this discussion?

Dear Trolltech (5, Funny)

porksoda (253218) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823600)

I was just wondering if it's at all possible for you guys to change your name from Trolltech to something less pleasant sounding. No, wait.... Not possible.
Maybe.. Goatsetech?
I dunno.
But fire the guy who came up with that name, anyway.

Sincerely,
Common Sense

Re:Dear Trolltech (1)

NoGuffCheck (746638) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823636)

how about... Ass-milk?

Re:Dear Trolltech (1)

porksoda (253218) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823646)

if you're gonna go THAT route, may i suggest TubGirlTech?

Re:Dear Trolltech (2, Funny)

Lord Kano (13027) | more than 8 years ago | (#13824058)

AssMilkCheeseTech

Re:Dear Trolltech (1)

saskboy (600063) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823776)

The Parent post isn't funny, it's insightful. Every time I read about "Trolltech" on Slashdot, I immediately think of the secret troll page hidden on Slashdot, and not a programming group responsible for a segment of Linux desktop programming.

Secret Troll Page? (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13824117)

I immediately think of the secret troll page hidden on Slashdot
Secret troll page?
Why wasn't I told?
Do you have a link?

Re:Secret Troll Page? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13824406)

NOBODY has a link.
It's THAT secret.

Re:Dear Trolltech (1)

Scott7477 (785439) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823851)

Boogers R' Us?

Re:Dear Trolltech (2, Funny)

catch23 (97972) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823861)

Maybe an awful name is a good way to create a well known company. People probably shudder upon hearing the name "TrollTech". Maybe someone should create a company called "FuckTech". People would freak out upon hearing that name...

Re:Dear Trolltech (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13823937)

Dear Common Sense,
In light of you and,....3 other peoples complains we have decided to consider the following other names: Curledanushair Tech, BugaBuButuglyAssSmear Tech, JizFaceTech, and last, but definatly not least BabyShitCockBarfFuckingElefentAndswallowNew_Low.Te ch().

And for your concern we have sent you a Tifanies Box.

Signed,

TrollTech

It's actually a good name (3, Informative)

ari_j (90255) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823981)

Trolltech is headquartered in Oslo, Norway. Trolls are a very central part of Norwegian popular culture and folklore. See the Wikipedia article on trolls [wikipedia.org] for more information about this Scandinavian cultural element, and this article about the Troll Oil Platform [wikipedia.org] for another example of Norwegian companies using this tie to their folklore.

Trolltech.. (1, Redundant)

nile_list (812696) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823603)

I've always been bothered by that name. Trolltech. Looking at Wikipedia's article [wikipedia.org] , apparently the company is from Norway. Does "troll" mean something in Norwegian?

I also see that they used be "Quasar Technologies." That seems a hell of a lot better than Trolltech. Maybe it will always be a mystery.

sigh

Re:Trolltech.. (5, Informative)

StonedRat (837378) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823657)

I think the troll in trolltech refers to :
A supernatural creature of Scandinavian folklore, variously portrayed as a friendly or mischievous dwarf or as a giant, that lives in caves, in the hills, or under bridges.

as aposed to people who troll for arguments which is
To trail (a baited line) in fishing.

Re:Trolltech.. (1)

Namronorman (901664) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823743)

They covered this on NPR today (for whatever reason, I don't know). They said that often times in folklore, that when a Troll disguises itself as a human you can still see its tail.

They went on for a few minutes talking about various different trolls of which you already mentioned, but what I found most interesting is that they're supposedly good luck if you see one.

Re:Trolltech.. (5, Funny)

ToasterofDOOM (878240) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823786)

A supernatural creature of Scandinavian folklore, variously portrayed as a friendly or mischievous dwarf or as a giant, that lives in caves, in the hills, or under bridges.

I get it! So a troll is either good or bad, and either big or small. Thanks, that clears a lot up.

Re:Trolltech.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13823827)

I get it! So a troll is either good or bad, and either big or small. Thanks, that clears a lot up.

Being married to a Norweigan, I can tell you that this is not atypical logic and reasoning for their culture. Or at least for their womenfolk.

Re:Trolltech.. (1)

Spy Hunter (317220) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823946)

Your sig is missing an apostrophe. Without the possessive form ("programmer's") it doesn't make any sense.

Re:Trolltech.. (1)

jayloden (806185) | more than 8 years ago | (#13824448)

According to the book C++ GUI Programming With QT [phptr.com] , I believe that the founder of the company had a dream in which he owned a company called Trolltech. He told his wife about the name, and she hated it, so they went with it.

Trolltech? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13823607)

Like you take everyone with a slashdot nickname ending in "Troll", put them in the same office, and give them paychecks? What kind of idea is that?

woopedy dooda.. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13823631)

woopedy dooda..

Cool. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13823638)

At least I know that $150,000 of my Qt annual license fees are paying *somebody's* salary.

The Zeta community gets smaller and smaller (3, Insightful)

MysteriousMystery (708469) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823643)

The community of BeOS loyalists just keeps shrinking it seems. I was reading on a popular BeOS news site that Microsoft hired some former Be programmers to work on Windows sound. Now trolltech has one of the co-creators of the BeOS. It really makes me wonder how much longer the small user base of BeOS users will last, especially since Zeta hasn't taken off due to its price.

Re:The Zeta community gets smaller and smaller (1)

civilizedINTENSITY (45686) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823696)

I don't see how the fact that Be programmers have day jobs means "BeOS loyalists just keeps shrinking." I'm not saying the community is increasing or decreasing, just that your linking two things that aren't realated by causality.

Someone's gotta say it. (1)

TheLittleJetson (669035) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823936)

It's not 1996. BeOS isn't that cool anymore. Mac OS X is the new BeOS.

Re:Someone's gotta say it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13823984)

It's not 2003. Mac OS X isn't that cool anymore. Windows Vista is the new OS X.

Re:Someone's gotta say it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13824075)

ha ha ha.

very funny. Vista's not even out yet.

The only thing we know about its coolness is what Microsoft tells us about it. And we know how truthful they always are!

Re:Someone's gotta say it. (4, Informative)

Fandango (2618) | more than 8 years ago | (#13824135)

Ah, yes, but the original developers of BeOS are still great engineers, so it's newsworthy to hear about their new pursuits. As a former BeOS hacker and an intern at Be in 1997, it's great to see what's happened to the various engineers that I used to work with. Dominic Giampaolo [wikipedia.org] is now at Apple where he is the chief architect behind Spotlight [wikipedia.org] and other cool stuff, and several Be engineers, including myself, are now working at Danger, Inc. [danger.com] , the company behind the Hiptop/Sidekick [wikipedia.org] and Hiptop2 [danger.com] smart phones.

I remember Benoit as an über-hacker who wrote something like 50% of the original BeOS single-handedly. It was great to hear about his new job while I'm waiting for KDE 3.5.0 beta 2 to compile on my Gentoo box.

Re:The Zeta community gets smaller and smaller (1)

ChunderDownunder (709234) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823940)

There is a Zeta community?

I thought the active BeOS community were biding their time with BeOS Max Edition [bebits.com] before Haiku [haiku-os.org] is ready.

No issues with Haiku and price. :)

Besides, I don't believe that any of the ex Be employees have the legal right to work on Zeta or haiku due to IP constraints.

Re:The Zeta community gets smaller and smaller (1)

dlockamy (597001) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823973)

I do believe that was a joke.

If I remember correctly the story you read was refering to the Vista's media controls being identical to those of BeOS

So many initiatives, so little impact (2, Insightful)

ReformedExCon (897248) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823656)

This MLI that Trolltech, Motorola, and WindRiver are forming looks to be another one of those biannual mailing list groups. By which I mean that there is a lot of initial interest and a bunch of people join the group and get included on the mailing list and after a month or two of email flurries, the list dies down to an automated email verifying the list recipients every two years.

These things come and go so fast that it seems to not even be worth the trouble to discuss.

On the other hand, Linux as a mobile platform is a reality, and it isn't just that handful of companies listed in the article that are involved in embedded Linux development. About half the selection of mobile phones for the Japanese Docomo network are based on Linux. Many home entertainment device makers use Linux in their home electronics products. And the number of private Linux "homebrew" projects is huge due to the relatively low cost of entry.

Linux in the "mobile" market is booming, and doesn't need an Initiative to help it. Indeed, the software aspect is only one component in the embedded market. Hardware considerations are much more important. Should OEMs go with XScale or OMAP? OMAP or Alchemy? These initial hardware decisions pave the roadmap for future software needs. Standardizing the software from the outset only limits the choices that OEMs can make.

Wow, misread that. (4, Funny)

yurivish (902527) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823661)

I thought it read "Original BSOD Developer". Hehe...

A question on dual licensing (4, Interesting)

teslatug (543527) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823684)

Does Trolltech incorporate GPL-ed contributions into their commercial release? If yes, what gives them the right to re-license those contributions under a non-GPL license? Else, what do they get out of open sourcing their software other than publicity?

Re:A question on dual licensing (1)

oliverthered (187439) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823734)

I think KDE is a pretty good add for their toolkit, and like the pirated coppies of Adobe software when the GPLers at collage leave collage their going to go to their employers knowing how to use the QT toolkit.

Re:A question on dual licensing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13823795)

[lisa simpson]I know what all those words mean, but that doesn't make any sense.[/lisa simpson]

Re:A question on dual licensing (2, Informative)

oliverthered (187439) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823921)

Ok, years ago you could get all kinds of pirated software on DAT tape, software that cost much more money than most people could afford.
Like today people installed and ran that pirated software, learned how to use it and when the .COM boom started they went to work for companies already knowing how to use all this expensive software. When the company turned around and asked their employees which software to use they told their boss to use the same software they got on pirated on the DAT tapes, and the companies that produced that software proffit ed. By allowing people to use/learn Qt for free Qt gain hundreds of people who already know how to use their toolkit when they enter a commercial environment.

That probably still doesn't make sense.... one day...

Re:A question on dual licensing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13823799)

Psst... I believe the proper spelling is "college", and I use the GIMP, thanks.

- A College GPLer

Re:A question on dual licensing (5, Informative)

xfmr_expert (853170) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823796)

For you contribution to be accepted, you must assign copyright to Trolltech, allowing them to release your contributions under whatever license they choose. If you don't, they don't incorporate it. No skin off their back.

Re:A question on dual licensing (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 8 years ago | (#13824172)

They don't accept contributions at all.. their not a community project. If you send them a patch they will request that you send them a description of the bug and a test case. They won't even read your patch because it might infect the brains of their programmers. It's a very shit way to run an open source project.

Re:A question on dual licensing (1)

AJWM (19027) | more than 8 years ago | (#13824283)

What in the world gave you the idea that Qt was an open source project? It's a commercial product from a commercial company that, out of the goodness of their hearts (or because they see a commercial advantage in offering the toolkit free for developers to play with), they also happen to release under the GPL. What you describe may indeed be a crappy way to run an open source project, but it's a great way to run a company -- it avoids copyright infringement.

If you want an open source project, go restart Harmony -- the project to create a (L?)GPL'd version of the Qt toolkit back before Trolltech released it under that license.

Re:A question on dual licensing (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 8 years ago | (#13824293)

Blah, I'm sure most people would rather work on GTK+.. at least they'll accept patches.

Re:A question on dual licensing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13823817)

Since the other issues have been adressed..

Else, what do they get out of open sourcing their software other than publicity?

1) Lots of free software developers. Having developers is rather important for a toolkit.
2) Free software using Qt which can serve as a demo of their toolkits capabilities.
3) More customers, stemming from people using the free version and then purchasing a license for a proprietary project.
4) Contributions of code.
5) More detailed bug reports.

I wish (3, Interesting)

oliverthered (187439) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823762)

I wish I could select uneditable text (like error messages!)
I wish the QT supported full reflection and serialization so that drag and drop could be fully intergated in KDE.
I wish they would make QT thread safe so that when web plugins and konquerer tabs crashed they didn't take all my konqueror windows with
them.

and finally I wish that new guy would read my comment.

Re:I wish (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13823797)

Add them as feature requests (not on slashdot).

Also I don't believe thread safety would prevent all of konqueror crashing if a tab in konqueror crashed. Also I use to have the flash plugin crash all the time and it never would crash Konqueror, so there is at least some protection against plugin crashes in konqueror.

And one last thing: Its Qt not QT. I use to think it was QT but its actually Qt (and pronounced Cute). Wow this is like the only time I will ever be able to correct someone's spelling... or grammar... or... whatever the hell that would be counted as!

Re:I wish (1)

oliverthered (187439) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823895)

Also I don't believe thread safety would prevent all of Konqueror crashing if a tab in Konqueror crashed. Also I use to have the flash plugin crash all the time and it never would crash Konqueror, so there is at least some protection against plugin crashes in Konqueror.

If QT was thread safe then you could run plugins/kparts and Konqueror windows/tabs in separate threads, if the thread crashes you can just kill/susspend that thread and warn the user that their other windows may crash, so save any work and they can probably keep on going.

The reason that flash plugins don't kill the browser is because nspluginviewer runs in a separate process to Konqueror, threads would allow the plugins to run in separate threads (and possibly be pooled), Qt and KDE etc... would also be able to benefit from the new multi-core chips coming out.

And one last thing: Its Qt not QT. I use to think it was QT but its actually Qt (and pronounced Cute). Wow this is like the only time I will ever be able to correct someone's spelling... or grammar... or... whatever the hell that would be counted as!

You should look at the rest of my posts if you want an example of poor spelling and grammar, they kept me in school like a prison for years but never bothered to teach me English.

Re:I wish (1)

FAdmThiago (170184) | more than 8 years ago | (#13824029)

Qt is thread-safe. What you can't do is interact with the GUI from outside the main thread, that's all.

Also, when a program crashes, it simply crashes, regardless of whether it was single-threaded or multi-threaded. Killing, cancelling or otherwise suspending threads without going through their normal exit sequence is not a good programming practice. For instance, you never know if it crashed with a locked mutex (for instance, the main event-queue mutex).

If you've ever experienced a Linux kernel-level crash, you must have noticed that you get a process stuck in D state. And you can cause other programs to get stuck too just by trying to access the resource that was locked.

One other thing: I know what I'm talking about. I designed the only multithreaded code that all KDE applications run today since KDE 3.3.

As for selecting uneditable text in dialog boxes, that's a nice feature (one that KDE has, btw). Submit it to Trolltech using the qt-bugs email address.

Re:I wish (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13824063)

I'm no expert, I haven't written anything remotely similar to what you say you have designed.

But are you seriously saying that Linux doesn't free the locked global resources of killed processes? That seems like something pretty fundamental to a stable OS.

Re:I wish (1)

oliverthered (187439) | more than 8 years ago | (#13824073)

Qt is thread-safe. What you can't do is interact with the GUI from outside the main thread, that's all.
That's all!! You can have a multithreaded app so long as you run anything GUI through a mutex, that's not thread safe.

Also, when a program crashes, it simply crashes, regardless of whether it was single-threaded or multi-threaded. Killing, cancelling or otherwise suspending threads without going through their normal exit sequence is not a good programming practice.

Umm... no it doesn't it's possible to recover from a crashed thread if you manage the threads resources properly, I think it's better programming practice to give the user the opportunity to save their work.

For instance, if a thread crashes because of a div/0 or a missing NULL pointer check and the stack trace is clean there's a very good change that you can susspend the thread with little or no sideeffects (with good resource tracking it's closer to none). That's not a 100% guarantee, but it miles better than the current situation.

Re:I wish (2, Informative)

temojen (678985) | more than 8 years ago | (#13824413)

I wish they would make QT thread safe so that when web plugins and konquerer tabs crashed they didn't take all my konqueror windows with them.

I wish you would learn what threading means and how it relates to what you can expect from the memory state of other threads if one of them crashes.

In other Be-related news... (3, Interesting)

doorbot.com (184378) | more than 8 years ago | (#13823897)

...HaikuOS has a paid developer for a few weeks.

Axel's development blog [blogspot.com] is available, as is the story on OSNews [osnews.com] where I found the link.

Apparently, Haiku should have a bootable CD image soon.

Benaphores (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13824013)

Does this mean he's going to create bad, non-functioning printer GUIs and name things like 'benaphore' for TrollTech too?

Out of all of the people that presented at the various Be Dev Conferences, he's the one that was the least impressive. He seemed to be cut from the same cloth as JLG when it came to attitude, with nothing to really back it up.

Re:Benaphores (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13824194)

Well, actually, I met with a bunch of people at Be and he was a quite good engineer and one of those at Be with the least attitude (that place was packed with higher-than-thou nerds). So he was a fairly good guy, as I remember. But none of these Be guys had a lot of vision or maturity. It was all about technology for the sake of technology. That plus the attitude nailed the coffin.

What Did BeOS Do? (0, Offtopic)

obender (546976) | more than 8 years ago | (#13824275)

I am not trying to start a flame war but could anybody explain why BeOS mattered at all? I did try it years ago but it did not recognize the network card in my laptop so I uninstalled it after maybe 15 minutes. If anything, it did tell me that the browser mattered to me more than the underlying operating system.

Mobile OSDL (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13824399)

the new mobile OSDL initiative
Mastering the second part of "take the money and run"?
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