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Shuttleworth's Commitment to Kubuntu and KDE

CmdrTaco posted more than 8 years ago | from the neck-deep-in-gui-software dept.

KDE 276

An anonymous reader writes "The Ubuntu Below Zero conference is in full momentum this week and Kubuntu has been prominent throughout. In his opening remarks at the start of the conference Ubuntu founder Mark Shuttleworth announced that he was now using Kubuntu on his desktop machine and said he wanted Kubuntu to move to a first class distribution within the Ubuntu community. Free CDs for Kubuntu through shipit should be available for the next release if the planned Live CD Installer removes the need for a separate install CD."

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276 comments

This is... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13962687)

My commitment to first post!

HELLO (1)

Fecal Troll Matter (445929) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962796)

You have opposite brains to think
opposite, but Big Brother icepick
academic lobotomy has destroyed
your mentality to think opposite of
the evil singularity you are taught. The 4 days is above your godism
and you don't even want to know.
Universe is composed of opposite
hemispheres and opposite sexes -
equating to + / -, a zero existence,
depicted by Pyramid's bare coffer.
Your 1Day God Makes You Evil.
4 Corner Days Are Absolute, but
ignored by stupid/evil educators.
Until cornered, word is fictitious.
God is product of fictitious word.
4Day Cube Disproves 1Day God
All creation within the universe is composed of
opposite hemispheres and opposite sexes - with
opposite races, opposite seasons, opposite luck,
opposite directions and opposite perspectives -
equating a harmonic rotating zero value existence.

KDE is dying (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13962692)

KDE is dying; Novell comfirms it.

Re:KDE is dying (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13962712)

Nonsense!

Shuttleworth using it at home proves otherwise.

And don't even get me started on Qt4 vs GTK+. Any programmer worth his salt knows which one has more features, is more stable, and is simply better designed.

Re:KDE is dying (1, Interesting)

Elektroschock (659467) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962767)

KDE vs. Gnome is not QT vs. GTK+

It is a problem of GTK+ that it does not integrate proper in a KDe desktop.

KDe is not bound to Toolkits.

Intrestingly Gnome adopts all non-QT solutions as part of its own solutions portfolio. I do not mind using Evolution under KDE etc. And I am certainly not intrested in Toolkit wars. They do not matter under Windows, so why shall they matter on Linux machines.

Re:KDE is dying (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13963269)

Are you joking?

Re:KDE is dying (1)

Elektroschock (659467) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963306)

No I am not joking.

It is a strange ideology on Linux to bundle DE to toolkits.

The only real question is whether the software written in a toolkit integrates into the chosen desktop environment, it could KDe, Gnome, Windows, Mac OS whatever.

On Windows applications are created by many different APIs and toolkits. And when you have a close at Windows applications look you will observe it. Nobody cares because they are more or less integrated and look at least similar.

Run Evolution with a QT style theme and Crystal Icons and it looks like a KDE app. Further patch the file dialog and standardize behaviour.

Re:KDE is dying (2, Interesting)

gilesjuk (604902) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962787)

IMHO KDE is more useful for those who are considering migrating from Windows to Linux. So I don't see why the commercial vendors are flocking to Gnome?

Re:KDE is dying (1)

grumbel (592662) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962839)

No idea what the real reasons are, but I would guess one would be that Gnome is simply, less config options to tweak and to get wrong then KDE thus less support costs.

Re:KDE is dying (1)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962881)

I find that KDE, by and large, suffers from the same sort of clutter problems that Windows does. In short, they've emulated the GUI too damn well. Gnome is a lot cleaner, but providing I can run the apps I want, I'll leave it to others to bash the two.

The only major KDE distro? (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13962704)

So, with the earlier announcement that Novell/SUSE is giving up KDE in favour of Gnome, does this mean that Kubuntu is now the only major KDE-based Linux distribution? How far can they get on Shuttleworth's money, when all the big boys are throwing their money behind Gnome? I would bet that whatever the advantages of Kubuntu on technical and usability fronts are, they must be years away from profitability. Can Shuttleworth alone keep it afloat until they turn the business side around?

Re:The only major KDE distro? (5, Informative)

datadriven (699893) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962726)

Slack still ships with KDE as main desktop, if you use X anyway.

Re:The only major KDE distro? (1)

Jason Earl (1894) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963044)

Patrick is awesome, but he isn't actually doing KDE development. He is simply *packaging* KDE. The real issue is who is going to pay for the next generation of KDE development if SuSE isn't going to pay.

Re:The only major KDE distro? (5, Informative)

c_fel (927677) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962732)

There's still Mandriva, Knoppix and surely some more. And don't forget that a lot of distributions are not KDE- or GNOME-centric

Re:The only major KDE distro? (1)

moranar (632206) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962858)

What exactly is KDE-based about mandriva? Certainly not their tools, written in GTK. Nor their desktop: they mold both KDE and GNOME to their Galaxy theme. I like it, a lot, but I wouldn't call it "KDE centric".

Knoppix, Linspire, Xandros, MEPIS (4, Insightful)

Burz (138833) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963181)

I look at them all as variations on Debian which are KDE-focused, though I tend to stick with Xandros.

Kubuntu Breezy should not be mailed out for free until it is fixed. Any Linux distro that always fails to save the LAN gateway address you type in isn't worth the CD its burned on. Plus the dialogs that cannot be fully viewed on an XGA screen (with plenty of empty space in the dialogs) plus a host of other problems I ran into within the first 90 min of use. (Yes, I filed those bugs. You're welcome.) So in short, they didn't test it.

Kubuntu is *very* nice looking though. That aspect is top-notch.

OTOH even as a KDE fan I'm glad Novel chose one desktop, Gnome. Every distro should chose one desktop. Its unnerving when you try out a distro as prestigious as SuSE 10 and you can't delete any files from Konqueror because "Protocol 'Trash' does not exist".

As a Corel-> Xandros Linux user going back to 1999, I can say that watching the lack of focus and sloppy execution on these other 'portentious' distros (you know who they are) has been absolutely comic.

I have to wonder if Ubuntu will suffer by elevating KDE to the level of Gnome.

Re:The only major KDE distro? (0, Flamebait)

Elektroschock (659467) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962751)

Well, it goes like this

1. Adopt Gnome as default desktop for a Linux Desktop strategy.
2. ????
3. Abandon Linux Desktop strategy

"is now the only major KDE-based Linux distribution"

No.
a. SuSE is THE KDE distribution and when Novell kills KDE, Novell will not succeed with Gnome. Novell bought a KDe power house and now kills its best pratice. What Stupididy.
b. Mandriva, Linspire, Kubuntu, Knoppix, etc etc etc

"How far can they get on Shuttleworth's money, when all the big boys are throwing their money behind Gnome?"

KDE is all about great fun and it works. The infrastructure is good and consistent. KDE Desktop Linux is no promise. It is ready but it can and will do better.
Gnome means no fun, a boring looking desktop and money waste on premature technology, fixing unfinished solutions which only work 70%.
Who throws its money? I just see business announcements following the scheme above:

RedHAt, HP, SUN, and now Novell. Few days ago SUN abandoned its gnome based Java Desktop failure. RedHat does not target the desktop anymore. And Novell did a serious mistake not listening to customers.

Re:The only major KDE distro? (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13962884)

Few days ago SUN abandoned its gnome based Java Desktop failure.

It did nothing of the sort! Sun Microsystems is putting *more* money and effort into GNOME now. The problem was that JDS was rapidly turning into a fork of GNOME. In an incredibly rare burst of cluefulness, Sun realised this, and understood the solution: it needed to get the thousands of patches it created to build JDS (including those to make it run on OpenSolaris) into GNOME CVS and bring it back to being just a branded GNOME... instead of maintaining an increasingly forked version. It was also apparent that Novell was pushing their vision of GNOME directly into the upstream CVS while Sun was busy trying to make the downstream JDS into their vision (and since CVS feeds JDS... well, you see the problem). Hence the major reshuffle, reorganisation and opening up of the JDS process, which you stupidly label as "abandonment".

Far from abandoning JDS, Sun demonstrated that, despite its manifest idiocy in most things, it really understood the problem and the action needed to fix it. A quite remarkable breakthrough for a firm renowned for its open source witlessness. Now, if only they'd shown half as much sense over the CDDL... but that's another subject.

P.S. Stop reading dot.kde.org -- those idiots are full of shit.

Re:The only major KDE distro? (1)

Elektroschock (659467) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963268)

Thanks for clarification.

You confirm JDS is a failure.
"Hence the major reshuffle, reorganisation and opening up of the JDS process, which you stupidly label as "abandonment"."
Outsourcing to open source. We had that before.

See:
http://www.gnome.org/~gman/blog/2005/Nov/01 [gnome.org]

I mean, everybody knew JDS was a failure once it was announced. Because it was not what users wanted. It was the idea of SUN people to let Gnome look like Win95 to step into the success of Win95 and bundle it with SUN fashion. 10 years too late.

When SUN ships Gnome with Solaris I am fine with it. But you cannot say solaris is a desktop Operating system. Chosing Gnome means that you do not want to target the desktop market because you will be incapable to fix the system to serve the desktop market needs. Others tried before.

Re:The only major KDE distro? (0, Flamebait)

NicklessXed (897466) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962973)

Oh, ffs, there you go again. Another bullshit comment from our beloved Elektroschock. At least this time you got the mod you deserved, seeing how you once again failed to back your claim that KDE is an absolute requirement for any desktop linux with actual facts (or at least any real arguments). All you have there is "I think KDE looks better".

You can't expect anyone to take your comments serious this way.

Re:The only major KDE distro? (2, Insightful)

Elektroschock (659467) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963041)

Sorry, this is not the way it works on the market.

Consumer choice is not based on arguments or facts.
It is not about arguments or facts, it is about preferences.
Sounds strange to you. Yes, it is.

"KDE is an absolute requirement for any desktop linux with actual facts"

Because we want it and we like it best.

Preferences must not be proven. Any proofs of that kind will be academic fraud anyway. When you chose your meal: Apple or pear. Do you count arguments? No. You take what you like best.

A Novell gnome based Dektop Linux will get no acceptance on the market.

---
Give me rational reasons or arguments why not celebrate Christmas on August 3rd...

Re:The only major KDE distro? (1)

Silverlancer (786390) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963110)

You're saying that preferences are all that matter. In which case, I prefer Gnome, and my opinion is that KDE completely blows and is one of the worst desktop environments ever created. Thus obviously any distro using KDE is doomed to failure!

/Just being Devil's Advocate here.

Re:The only major KDE distro? (1)

NicklessXed (897466) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963134)

Congrats for missing the point. You aren't supposed to "prove preferences". You are supposed to prove that those preferences actually exist.

I especially like your last sentence, "A Novell GNOME based Desktop Linux will get no acceptance on the market". That's nice. How do you know? After all, you can't prove it. You apparently can't back your claim with facts. So this is pure speculation (you could at least have marked it as such). There is no indication that users prefer KDE over GNOME.
What do you know, Novell may just have done some research before switching to GNOME... I'm sure they know more about their users preferences than you do.

Another fan favorite is "Because we want it and we like it best". Who is "we"? You and your five zealot friends?
It doesn't work like this. In the end, all you said once again boils down to "Because I think it looks better". You think so. Not the average users. Not most users. Just you. So stop making those stupid claims.

Re:The only major KDE distro? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13962801)

Ubuntu isn't *even* a KDE distro. All the official paid work on Ubuntu is done on GNOME... KDE is community supported (with possibly the occasional helping hand from the paid guys). No different from Red Hat or Novell.

Shuttleworth is a publicity opportunist... there's nothing wrong with that of course, in the wake of the Novell announcement he's seen the chance to pick up a good few disgruntled SUSE KDE fanatics and taken it. However, don't kid yourself here. Ubuntu spent a lot of money and effort making a GNOME desktop distro (and evaluated the options before starting), if you think Shuttleworth just installed "KDE" and gone "wow! look what I missed", then you are a fool.

The only difference between Ubuntu and Novell (both have KDE, but it's community supported) is that KDE users feel the fresh sting of rejection from Novell... Shuttleworth is hoping they will run to his distro under the mistaken impression that anything is different there.

Re:The only major KDE distro? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13962807)

> when all the big boys are throwing their money behind Gnome?

Pardon, maybe you missed the news about Novell's layoff of GNOME/Evolution developers? None of the big boys sees at the moment how to earn today money with Linux on the desktop and rather concentrate on enterprise server products.

European users can lend support. (1, Informative)

CyricZ (887944) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962837)

KDE is most widely used in Europe and Asia, due to its excellent support for non-English i18n, l12n and l12y. Relative to KDE, GNOME's support is lacking in those areas.

Remember, the European and Asian markets are huge today, and they're growing stronger as we speak. For such a new project, Kubuntu has a large following of very devoted users.

Re:European users can lend support. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13962886)

Are you kidding ? I have to keep Gnome around because its i18n is vastly superior. I even sometimes launch GTK apps just in order to type and cut-paste Asian text in a KDE app ! And don't let me talk about Pango..
Ubuuntu is one of the few Gnome distributions which doesn't allow you to type asian text out-of-the box

Re:European users can lend support. (2, Informative)

CyricZ (887944) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962925)

I was recently talking to a Japanese colleague. He was describing how he ran into all sorts of problems using GNOME on FC4. I recommended that he ditch Fedora, and try Kubuntu 5.10. So he did, and he was quite surprised by how well it worked.

But when you consider how KDE was born in Europe, and now heavily developed in Europe and Asia, it's not surprising that it has such fantastic support for non-English languages.

Re:European users can lend support. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13963224)

But when you consider how KDE was born in Europe, and now heavily developed in Europe and Asia, it's not surprising that it has such fantastic support for non-English languages.

Hogwash. In case you didn't know. You don't need Unicode in Europe, since we use the Latin alphabet. Also, GNOME is developed mostly in Europe.

Re:European users can lend support. (1)

thumperward (553422) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963032)

Could whatever KDE fanboi modded this up hang their head in shame, please? GNOME is about as lacking in i18n support as I am lacking in toes.

  - Chris

I'm sorry. You're wrong on this matter. (0, Flamebait)

CyricZ (887944) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963068)

Nobody said that GNOME completely lacked i18n support, as you appear to be suggesting.

What was clearly stated was that relative to KDE, the support of GNOME is inferior. The GNOME translations do not have the same high quality of the KDE translations, for instance. But that's not surprising, considered that GNOME is mainly developed by American developers working for American companies, while KDE is a far more international effort (with a bulk of the work being done in Europe and Asia).

Please try to read the posts before you respond to them with factually incorrect information.

Re:I'm sorry. You're wrong on this matter. (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13963144)

But that's not surprising, considered that GNOME is mainly developed by American developers working for American companies, while KDE is a far more international effort

Mod parent flamebait. Or "Dumb, uniformed crap" [gnome.org] .

I don't need to explain to anyone that GNOME's a11y tools are far more mature and advanced than KDE's (kudos to Sun), do I? But you could have found that out yourself.

Mepis uses KDE as well... (1)

clayasaurus (758835) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963200)

Mepis also ships with KDE, and I would consider it a major distribution, being on the top 5 in distrowatch and all.

The user should not have to care (5, Insightful)

David Gerard (12369) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962762)

I'm using Ubuntu Breezy with the GNOME desktop and I've installed all the kubuntu-desktop stuff as well.

The major problem I can see is that the user should not even have to care whether a given app is GNOME, KDE or whatever. You set your fonts and colours in the GNOME control panel, then you start a KDE app and it looks like weird-arse shit. WTF?

No serious open-source desktop these days can be all-GNOME or all-KDE; you need to make the mixture not affect the end user at all. They desperately need a unified look-and-feel control panel that will set this stuff consistently without the user having to care.

Re:The user should not have to care (1, Flamebait)

Rahga (13479) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962835)

"The major problem I can see is that the user should not even have to care whether a given app is GNOME, KDE or whatever. You set your fonts and colours in the GNOME control panel, then you start a KDE app and it looks like weird-arse shit. WTF?"

And nobody should have to pay for health insurance, and refrigerators should grow on trees. It's called utopia... I've never understood the people and culture behind KDE, never liked the KDE desktop. I prefer to use and contribute to GNOME. A lot of other contributors are just like me... They really don't have the time nor care about the way a KDE app looks on GNOME or vice versa. It simply is not that important.

"No serious open-source desktop these days can be all-GNOME or all-KDE; you need to make the mixture not affect the end user at all. They desperately need a unified look-and-feel control panel that will set this stuff consistently without the user having to care."

Yes, they can be. There's not a single KDE app that I can think of that I would want to use. I hear occasional complaints about gimp and inkscape under KDE, but personally, I don't use them much (or inkscape) at all since my professional media work really forces me into Windows and Illustrator CS or other apps. I accept this. By analogy, if I need to carpool a ton of kids, I'll drive my van, otherwise I'll go where I need to in a car. I'm not going to dedicate my time to build a van that gets the city mpg of a car unless I really, really cared about it.

Windows + Illustrator, for me, is fine in certain situations, but for most of my work, GNOME accomodates me fine. And I'm happy... So, don't expect me to fret about the KDE users.

By the way, there's absolutely nothing preventing you from stepping up to the plate, getting the necessary skills, and fixing the issues you cite... That how change happens in these desktops.

Re:The user should not have to care (0, Flamebait)

laptop006 (37721) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962861)

Have you actually given a solid try to Inkscape? I admit I'm not a graphic designer, but I have to do enough that I always keep a copy of Illustrator to hand, but the current version of Inkscape does everything I need except for dealing with the Illustrator file format.

And more on topic, I went Gnome 1.4 -> KDE 2 -> KDE 3 (With a few months of IceWM due to being stuck on a P120 for a while) -> KDE 3.2 -> GNOME 2.6 (running 2.10 IIRC). I still have two KDE apps that I run, konsole (can't stand anything else), and K3b (I know there are gnome ones out there, just haven't tried them).

Re:The user should not have to care (1)

Rahga (13479) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962904)

I've got plenty of experience with vector graphics released for gnome-games [rahga.com] , and quite a bit of professional graphics work under my belt. I currently use Illustrator for most of my vector-based art, and it's a joy to the point that even with modern Inkscape, I just find so many features either lacking or missing... In relative terms, it even feels like a fight just drawing and manipulating simple paths. There's still no decent support for layers, right? A lot of the things I didn't like about Sodipodi that seem to still be around, like their SVG generation... Then again, I'm one of those fools who reads SVG files and tweaks them for maximum impact.

I've used konsole, and can't say if I remember it being faster than gnome-terminal, but I do think a lot of the complaints about the latter may be overblown. Sadly, CD burning is something I do a lot of with my professional work, and my software needs include a burning software that controls a robotic arm and 50-cd trays. :)

Re:The user should not have to care (4, Insightful)

Bralkein (685733) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962892)

And nobody should have to pay for health insurance, and refrigerators should grow on trees. It's called utopia... I've never understood the people and culture behind KDE, never liked the KDE desktop. I prefer to use and contribute to GNOME. A lot of other contributors are just like me... They really don't have the time nor care about the way a KDE app looks on GNOME or vice versa. It simply is not that important.

Well, now you're just being silly. Of course refrigerators growing on trees does not appear to be very far within the realms of possibility, but can you seriously not imagine a common colour-scheme configuration shared between the two desktops? It doesn't seem like madness to me, maybe you could just have a directory ~/.xtheme or something with files in there. I guess this wouldn't fit in with this registry-alike thing Gnome has (disclaimer: I know nothing about Gnome and may be wrong), but with a little discussion, I definitely think it would be possible to work something out...

Oh, and without wanting to start a patriotic flamewar, there are many countries where nobody needs to get health insurance... so maybe the things that seem impossible are not as crazy as you think!

Re:The user should not have to care (1)

Rahga (13479) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962949)

The thing about color schemeing, and desktop themeing, is that a lot of this really isn't quite good nor necessarilly permanant in GNOME, and probably not KDE either. One thing we've dreamed about in the librsvg camp is utilizing CSS in SVG-equipped desktop themes, and generating that CSS in an app similar to Window's "Appearance" dialog. It would be enough of a nightmare trying to get this work in GNOME alone, and of course, it may indeed never ever happen. However, harder than getting this to work in GNOME would be the task of making some sort of standard for it and getting it supported in KDE as well.

Not saying it is impossible, but rather, that it is hard, and things are very likely change from one revision to another on each desktop regarding these issues. Keeping them in sync would also be a huge task.

Re:The user should not have to care (4, Interesting)

pivo (11957) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962897)

There's not a single KDE app that I can think of that I would want to use

KDE's Konsole is clearly superior to GNOME's terminal app, which is achingly slow. Fedora, a GNOME-centric distribution, has recognized that fact by making Konsole the terminal app on GNOME (desktop right-click->New Terminal). And GNOME has nothing to compare to Konqueror.

Re:The user should not have to care (1)

pivo (11957) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963030)

This wasn't supposed to be a troll. In the past GNOME's terminal program was so slow it was slowing down my compiles (you can google 'gnome terminal slow' to see how many people had a problem with this.) This problem is what caused me to try out KDE in the first place. In any case, I just googled it myself and apparently the GNOME terminal has been fixed and is now quite fast. So I take back the that part of my post.

Re:The user should not have to care (1)

Etyenne (4915) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962917)

There's not a single KDE app that I can think of that I would want to use.

K3B and Klipper kept me on KDE for a looooong time.

Re:The user should not have to care (1)

Burz (138833) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963322)

"K3B and Klipper kept me on KDE for a looooong time."

Just having file dialogs kept me on KDE for some time! (*Shudders* when I think about picking files with older Gnome apps.)

But at least Gnome has that healthy mishmash of C, CORBA, Central Registry, and .NET/Mono technologies that make growing programmers choose OS X. :-)

Re:The user should not have to care (4, Insightful)

thumperward (553422) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963039)

And nobody should have to pay for health insurance


It's interesting that you have this in the "impossible utopia" column. I don't have to pay for health insurance.

  - Chris

Re:The user should not have to care (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13963310)

If in your country, it is socialized health-care you have, its called taxes. If socialized health-care you don't have where you are, then you are either quite wealthy and pay your own bills or living life quite on the edge.

Re:The user should not have to care (1)

ameerirshad (897838) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963119)

I know some KDE programs I prefer above their GNOME counterparts! AmaroK above any XMMS or Rhytmbox is on top of my list! Furthermore under GNOME the Skype interface looks like shit and I have read nowhere how to get it any decent, except on the Ubuntuforums where people advice to install the Qt libraries and KCentre to manage the looks of KDE programs, also if u used GNOME. So even though GNOME would be my prefered interface, I currently work a lot with KDE as well as I've installed both of them!

Sounds like your installation is botched. (2, Informative)

CyricZ (887944) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962893)

Can you provide us with some screenshots showing the problems that you speak of? Perhaps you managed to botch your installation somehow.

If you're using Kubuntu 5.10, check the K -> System Settings -> Appearance configuration panel. Notice the "GTK styles and fonts" portion. It allows you to easily set your GTK style and fonts to those used by KDE. And it works fine for every GNOME/GTK+ app that I use.

Re:Sounds like your installation is botched. (1)

PatrickThomson (712694) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963137)

Unfortunately the user is using gnome with a kde app and the minimal dependancies to make the kde app run, not the other way around.

Re:The user should not have to care (2, Interesting)

mickwd (196449) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962911)

"You set your fonts and colours in the GNOME control panel, then you start a KDE app and it looks like weird-arse shit."

Carrying things to an extreme, if you want true consistency for users, you shouldn't be changing font and colour settings........

But I think your suggestion about a unified control panel is the best suggestion I've heard re. unifying the "Linux desktop". Personally, I'm glad there are several Linux desktop environments, all competing with each other and rapidly improving together as a result.

A single control panel which could control at least the common elements of the most popular desktops would be a wonderful idea. I hope someone reads your suggestion and makes a serious go at it - really, this would go a huge way towards achieving the "unified Linux desktop" in the eyes of the end user.

(Getting the environments to use the same font sizes (respecting the X11 DPI values) would be another).

Re:The user should not have to care (1)

nine-times (778537) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963246)

A single control panel which could control at least the common elements of the most popular desktops would be a wonderful idea. I hope someone reads your suggestion and makes a serious go at it - really, this would go a huge way towards achieving the "unified Linux desktop" in the eyes of the end user.

A control panel might possibly be good, but it also might be needlessly complicated. Wouldn't it be easier to standardize between KDE and Gnome where they store some font/color settings or something? Of course none of this addresses the fact that the programs will still look different.

Personally, I'm inclined to say we should get over it. If you want true consistency, keep to a single DE. If you want to try to tweak your Gnome/KDE settings to make them look the same, feel free to do so. Maybe it'd be nice if a given distro found ways to integrate Gnome and KDE better, but ultimately, the current situation isn't that bad.

Indeed! (1)

Grendel Drago (41496) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963308)

Perhaps this is one of the things that the good fellas at freedesktop.org could do, being a nonpartisan standards development group. If as much as possible could be made desktop-independent, that would surely be good; features could be used by applications from either side of the fence, and maybe some kind of consistency would be possible.

For instance, if one uses Tango [tango-project.org] icon themes (implementing a fd.o spec [freedesktop.org] , the same icons can be found both by KDE and GNOME desktops and applications.

'Course, that's just icons, but maybe it's possible to do that with themes.

Re:The user should not have to care (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13963010)

Get a clue... *no-one* wants to support two lots of desktop libraries (and by that I mean triage/bugfix/develop/release/deal with security and all the problems that come from mixing code). This was obvious from day one of GNOME development. All the crap in the world about making them look the same will not change that.

Seriously, anyone who has been involved in software development will tell you the same thing -- in fact, I remember telling KDE supporters 5 years ago that one desktop will have to die before Linux can make any real headway for desktop applications, and im reply they spouted the same nonsense as you. I wasn't sure which desktop was for the chop then (but I strongly suspected it would be KDE unless some serious license changes occured)... but now it's painfully obvious. KDE supporters only have themselves to blame for this. They spent hundreds (thousands even) of man years building on top of a license disaster... they were warned repeatedly, but chose to ignore it and let their zeal for Trolltech override common sense.

The best thing to come out of the KDE project is a warning to future projects.

Re:The user should not have to care (1)

RAMMS+EIN (578166) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963050)

``No serious open-source desktop these days can be all-GNOME or all-KDE''

I don't agree with you there. GNOME (and also KDE, I guess) both have a full set of applications built for them. Ubuntu itself convinced me that you can build a complete desktop using only GNOME software. As long as GNOME and KDE don't get their themes compatible, I see distros that support one desktop or the other exclusively as the best solution for end users who want a nicely integrated desktop that just works. Ubuntu is a prime example of such a distro.

Re:The user should not have to care (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13963120)

There is something that does something like that: http://www.metatheme.org/ [metatheme.org] . I use it myself and it's quite good. It makes QT, GTK, and even Java apps have the same theme. It's not "look and feel" but at it's got the "look" part covered.

what Ubuntu could do is... (2, Interesting)

FudRucker (866063) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962784)

make CD #1 mostly a base system with xorg and the basic x apps, similar to Slackware's #1 CD, and make a #2 CD with Gnome & KDE letting the user decide to install either Gnome and/or KDE, or users can just download the #1 CD install and get a basic OS booting, and download & install either gnome or kde via ftp after installing CD #1

Re:what Ubuntu could do is... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13962803)

An excellent idea. For a normal Linux distro, that is. For Ubuntu, with its user-friendly, cuddly-bear image, a system less complex is superior. I think the idea of allowing people to use a LiveCD to work out their favourite configuration, and then allowing them to install it, is an excellent concept.

Re:what Ubuntu could do is... (0, Flamebait)

laptop006 (37721) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962880)

Except that breaks having a single-cd installer, one of the fundamentals of Ubuntu, and it's something they'll hold on to for as long as possible.

Now what they might do is use free space on the live-cd as storage for any KDE packages they can't fit on the main installer CD.

Re:what Ubuntu could do is... (2, Insightful)

leonmergen (807379) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962887)

make CD #1 mostly a base system with xorg and the basic x apps, similar to Slackware's #1 CD, and make a #2 CD with Gnome & KDE letting the user decide to install either Gnome and/or KDE, or users can just download the #1 CD install and get a basic OS booting, and download & install either gnome or kde via ftp after installing CD #1

You do realise we're talking about Ubuntu here, which aims to provide a very user-friendly environment ?

Err... (1)

BrokenHalo (565198) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962987)

make CD #1 mostly a base system with xorg and the basic x apps, similar to Slackware's #1 CD

Slackware's CD#1 in the current 10.2 version doesn't include KDE any more, just xfce, twm and some other more minor desktop environments. And Pat has given up distributing Gnome in anything like a current model: that is well served by Dropline, and there's no point in his reinventing the wheel.

Re:Err... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13963093)

Eh? Blackbox, flux, fvwm and windowmaker are in no way more minor than twm.

Slack base install does include the KDE and Gnome libs, and I think this is the way all distros should go. Gnome and KDE bloat is still availiable for users who haven't yet discovered that they don't need/want these desktops.

Ubuntu/Kubuntu (1)

Stevyn (691306) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962786)

I've installed both. The computer to my right is running Ubuntu 5.10. It's really a great distro. Very clean, simple, easy to maintain, and "snappy". I installed Kubuntu a few months ago, and I feel it wasn't as polished as Ubuntu is. I think both projects are really good for the community and I'd love to see Kubuntu surpass the commercial distros like Suse and Mandriva.

Re:Ubuntu/Kubuntu (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13963045)

I feel it wasn't as polished as Ubuntu is

I agree and I get the feeling that that might be the reason that Shuttleworth will be throwing Ubuntu's weight behind Kubuntu to get everything up to Ubuntu's (high) standard. A friend installed Kubuntu 5.04 on his machine and there were issues with cursors (or lack of), amarok constantly crashing, just not the KDE he was used too (with all respect to Kubuntu they have a tough job). Also within the Ubuntu community KDE is probably more popular (the numbers on distro-watch are decieving you can have Ubuntu and then install KDE on top of it). I wonder if this will mean Ubuntu will follow KDE's release cycle?

Let's have a nice flamewar again. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13962808)

A companies preference is all about politics and has nothing to do with quality. For instance in de past there was a big effort in lobbying for Gnome. Does someone still remember the manipulation of Google in favour of Gnome by Miguel de Icaza and friends? At first Novell bought Miguel de Icaza (=Gnome). Later Novell bought Suse (=KDE). Inside Novell Miguel de Icaza spent all his time killing KDE. He behaves like a cuckoo. Getting KDE out of the nest...

Re:Let's have a nice flamewar again. (0)

Rahga (13479) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962863)

Maybe it makes sense for Novell to support an ISV platform that doesn't force developers to either (a) release their apps under GPL or (b) pay a TrollTech tax? Perhaps, maybe, Miguel de Icaza was justified in fighing for the GNOME desktop, and it is perfectly fine for Novell to lessen their support of KDE?

Re:Let's have a nice flamewar again. (1)

Klivian (850755) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963273)

But all evidence points to this not being fact, since way more ISVs use Qt than GTK+ making that argument rather void. Commercial ISVs re used to, comfortable with and prefer paying for tools making their products better, cheaper to develop and having the safety commercial support.

Re:Let's have a nice flamewar again. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13962916)

That monkey desperately wants to rewrite Gnome in C# so that MS can destroy the project with patent litigation.

Miguel de Icaza: [wikipedia.org] brilliant hacker and Microsoft fanboi, the mind truely boggles.

Re:Let's have a nice flamewar again. (1)

RAMMS+EIN (578166) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963127)

``He behaves like a cuckoo. Getting KDE out of the nest...'' ...and in doing so, he does exactly what many of the losers here on Slashdot and elsewhere say Linux "should" do: standardize on a single solution. Within a single company, I'd say that's even a Good Thing.

Of course, in the larger picture, there is no reason that standardization on a single solution for everything would be desirable. One of the great advantages Linux offers over most other systems is its great flexibility. Of course, flexibility alone doesn't mean so much, you also need alternatives. Right now, I have a choice between GNOME, KDE, a number of smaller desktop environments, or no desktop environment at all. I love it this way.

Below Below Zero (1)

Doc Ruby (173196) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962824)

What are they using at UBZ to generate/maintain those schedule pages? I don't see any SW like that in my Ubuntu menu.

KDE & Gnome suck (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13962853)

No troll, hear me out.

They both really, hugely suck; as in donkey balls through a straw. Give me any almost any other desktop or give me Microsoft Windows! I'd like to see something like XUL that can be translated to QT, GTK, Wx and FLTK and further a consistant desktop API for all subsystems. Anything that gives me the maximum number of application choices without requiring me to install libs for bloated desktops I will never use.

ARRRG. (2, Insightful)

Visceral Monkey (583103) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962882)

Just as it seems we are making progress toward at least having ONE standard DE for most of the desktops used out there, Shuttleworth pulls this out of his ass. Seriously, Ubunutu is one of the reasons GNOME has made so much progress recently with users and now we are back to square one with splitting the userbase. Stupid move. I could care LESS which one they choose, just choose ONE.

Re:ARRRG. (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962968)

Except that a *single* desktop will *never* happen.

People have preferences. Some of us really dislike gnome. While others dislike kde. The same goes for anything else that comes along.

Should we have 100 to support? No of course not, but expecting a single unified desktop to be shoved down our throats isnt realistic either.

Re:ARRRG. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13963020)

expecting a single unified desktop to be shoved down our throats isnt realistic either.

Works for Microsoft.

Re:ARRRG. (1)

iggymanz (596061) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963066)

right, just one version with no confusion, XP Home Edition for the desktop. Oh, there's also Windows XP Professional. And Windows XP Embedded. And Windows XP Starter Edition.....

Re:ARRRG. (1)

idlake (850372) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963056)

I agree that a diversity of desktops is good. I would love to see a desktop by the KDE developers that had a chance to succeed commercially. But as long as KDE is based on Qt (GPL and for-pay license), I think it's going to hurt rather than help Linux.

Re:ARRRG. (1)

Jason Earl (1894) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963062)

Yes, and I like xfce, but that doesn't mean that I think that xfce is going to be the desktop that my grandmother uses when Linux takes over the desktop.

Re:ARRRG. (2, Insightful)

arkhan_jg (618674) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963048)

The two desktops have different goals, different development platforms, and different markets. Both have their adherants. Some people prefer apple, some people prefer windows. Choice is good.

Re:ARRRG. (1)

iksrazal_br (614172) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963070)

One mans angst is another mans joy. Timing is everything, and Shuttleworth is cleverly showing some skill. I'm a long time Suse user and kubunto is now going on the next machine I have a chance to do a fresh install.

All Shuttleworth needs to do now is convince troll tech to move Qt to LGPL and I'll help build a shrine for him.

My new sig - They'll take KDE away from me about the same time when they take away my guns - they tried that recently here in Brasil and failed too.

iksrazal

Re:ARRRG. (2, Interesting)

rsheridan6 (600425) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963157)

Open Source is about freedom of choice. If you want ONE DE, try Windows XP. Some of us didn't switch to Linux to have GNOME shoved down our throats.

Re:ARRRG. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13963199)

Some of us didn't switch to Linux to have GNOME shoved down our throats.

Some of us don't want KDE shoved down our throats either. I've been a Slackware user for years, but since Pat decided to drop Gnome, I've decided to drop Slackware. I'm going for Debian.

If you don't like the distro's default, just install another one. If you don't want to do that, use another distro.

Re:ARRRG. (2, Insightful)

Stimpack (915453) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963278)

Ive tried Gnome, a few times, I really tried to like it, It just lacks so much its painfull. If you dont have political reasons Gnome is not in a usable position right now. Not many people will be happy if they standardize on one DE, the Gnome evangelicals, well we know how loud and mouthy they can be, the KDE peeps will lose alot of features and useability. Main priority and only thing I care about, sort some way to stop GTK apps looing shitty in KDE and vice versa.

Unfortunately, what hurts KDE (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13962901)

Unfortunately, and somewhat ironically, what hurts KDE is the GPL behind it. Note, I use KDE, I like KDE over Gnome, but when I think about talking to my company about what they should write software, it has to be GTK or wxWindows and not QT. Yes, I know we can just get a license from Trolltech and all, but the per seat cost is a bit much in comparison to everything available freely. And Yes, QT is a very nice toolkit and is well worth the money, but when your talking budget constraints, another few grand per seat really matters. Drop it to around a hundred or so (i.e. in range of your average developer's "for personal use, but could go commercial with it or try to sell it to the boss" qualification), and I think it would fly off the wall.

Re:Unfortunately, what hurts KDE (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13962950)

QT is available under GPL!

A common mistake (5, Interesting)

Trestop (571707) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963098)

Right, Qt is GPL/QPL so to develop against Qt you must license as GPL or buy a TrollTech license.

But! kdelibs are LGPL!
So if you are only using KDE interfaces, you may license as anything you want!

I don't know for sure, but I think this is intentional - if you want to develop cross platform apps, then you buy a Qt license from TrollTech (Although I would argue that neither Qt nor GTK+ is right for the job - instead choose FLTK or Wx). If you want to strengthen the Linux desktop (specifically the KDE part of it), then you can license it however you like w/o paying anyone anything.

CUPS size (2, Funny)

The Dirty Lemon (928935) | more than 8 years ago | (#13962930)

This is PERFECT! Now, if only the CUPS people could get their thing to work without the step in the instructions that tells me to pull all my hair out....

Re:CUPS size (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13962946)

Don't tell me which hair...

Re:CUPS size (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13963011)

  1. modprobe printer driver
  2. Install cups and edit cupsd.conf
  3. Pluck hair surrounding anus
  4. ...
  5. Profit

that's a mistake (0)

idlake (850372) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963036)

I think technically, KDE is a good desktop, and it is popular in Europe. But no matter how good it is, KDE is simply is not going to happen as a mainstream commercial desktop as long as Qt is available only under the GPL and a commercial license. Gnome may be worse, but it isn't so much worse that it makes a difference to real-world users.

I think it's a bad mistake for Ubuntu to support KDE on equal footing with Gnome; for the Linux desktop, the best thing is if people standardize on Gnome for now.

The KDE developers should seriously think about developing the next generation Linux desktop, based on a an entirely new toolkit and new approach to doing things.

QT == GPL == Free Software (1)

billybob2 (755512) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963166)

KDE is simply is not going to happen as a mainstream commercial desktop as long as Qt is available only under the GPL

QT is licensed GPL [gnu.org] . The GPL is the best Free Software license because it contains strong copyleft [gnu.org] provisions that require derivative works to also be Free and Open Source. This is in the interest of users (like me) so I have absolutely no problems with QT or anything else licensed under the GPL.

Why exactly do you care about proprietary, closed source, non-free software anyway? So you can lock users in your product, prevent them from making modifications, restrict their rights, control what they can and can't do with their computers? Proprietary software is immoral, and if that's what you're developing, then you SHOULD be penalized by having to pay licensing fees.

Re:that's a mistake (1)

dc2447 (920780) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963197)

I think it's a bad mistake for Ubuntu to support KDE on equal footing with Gnome; for the Linux desktop, the best thing is if people standardize on Gnome for now. I thought the point was to make Linux more poular rather than less popular. Restricting the choice of window mamager would certainly be a step backwards IMVHO and would limit the appeal of Linux for many. Personally I prefer KDE but I'm not going to force anyone to use it.

Re:that's a mistake (2, Insightful)

ledow (319597) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963257)

"... no matter how good it is, KDE is simply is not going to happen as a mainstream commercial desktop as long as Qt is available only under the GPL and a commercial license."

Maybe not. But where does your reasoning come from? Companies can buy into it just like the software they are used to (if they want to be that stupid). People (like me) can freebie their way into it because they know it's not going to get taken away if QT disappears. Exactly where is the problem for anybody? Were it GPL-only, you'd have an argument. Were it commercial licenses only, you'd have an argument. But it's both. That solves pretty much everything you could want in a product.

"Gnome may be worse, but it isn't so much worse that it makes a difference to real-world users."

Gnome may not be any better or worse, I've compared both and personally I prefer KDE (it seems more modern but not too artsy, easier, sleeker, not so clunky. Gnome still reminds me of old DOS GUI's in places, or those Borland-written dialogs and menus you used to have on Windows. Nothing *wrong* with them, they just feel completely out of place).

However, from a technical side, there are many considerations. Gnome is still a pain in the arse to manage for a distro. That's the primary reason that Slackware has dropped it from the distro.

Quotes from the changelog:
[[
gnome/*: Removed from -current, and turned over to community support and
    distribution. I'm not going to rehash all the reasons behind this, but it's
    been under consideration for more than four years.

    Please do not incorrectly interpret any of this as a slight against GNOME
    itself, which (although it does usually need to be fixed and polished beyond
    the way it ships from upstream more so than, say, KDE or XFce) is a decent
    desktop choice. So are a lot of others, but Slackware does not need to ship
    every choice. GNOME is and always has been a moving target (even the
    "stable" releases usually aren't quite ready yet) that really does demand a
    team to keep up on all the changes (many of which are not always well
    documented). I fully expect that this move will improve the quality of both
    Slackware itself, and the quality (and quantity) of the GNOME options
    available for it.

    Folks, this is how open source is supposed to work. Enjoy. :-)
]]

I have to agree with the last sentence.

"I think it's a bad mistake for Ubuntu to support KDE on equal footing with Gnome; for the Linux desktop, the best thing is if people standardize on Gnome for now."

Nope. Not in an open-source world. The point is to take EVERYTHING on an equal footing, get the best out of both and ditch the cruft. It's like software evolution. Whoever wins out of KDE and GNOME will, by definition, be the better system. However, to do this you have to start them both off on an equal footing. Welcome to open source. The fact that I can run GNOME binaries on my KDE desktop and vice versa means that there's no reason to choose any one of them yet and no need for standardisation. It's just another set of libraries for now.

"The KDE developers should seriously think about developing the next generation Linux desktop, based on a an entirely new toolkit and new approach to doing things."

Maybe. But what to start from? Where to get those ideas? Where to find those approaches? How to determine which of the new approaches works and which was better off the old way? By putting them all together, fighting it out (by a vote of user popularity) and, as if by magic, a victor will appear. They can take bits of each other, they can "steal" each other's ideas but they shouldn't be written off just because you don't like them. Many, many people do.

Almost too bad (4, Insightful)

RAMMS+EIN (578166) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963169)

It's almost too bad that Shuttleworth is throwing his weight behind another project, instead of doing one thing and doing it well. Too bad, because the same effort could be used to make Ubuntu and the software that constitutes it even better. Almost, because it seems nobody else can make a distribution like Ubuntu*, so this move may give the KDE-lovers the same gift a lot earlier than if it had been left up to the rest of the world.

* Certainly, nobody had managed to make a distribution that is as polished, hassle free, and freely available, before Ubuntu came. And it's not because of technical difficulties, Debian has had apt-get for ages, and other distros have had good installers for ages, and most of the software on Ubuntu has been around for quite some time, too.

Thank god (4, Insightful)

WhiteWolf666 (145211) | more than 8 years ago | (#13963260)

Without KDE, I'm sure myself, my friends, and my company would be using Windows.

Gnome doesn't do enough for the end user. Too many settings required mucking around in either the registry-like editor, or just plain command line things.

I remember trying to use Gnome is SuSE 9.0, and not being able to figure out how to specify which app to use for which mime type. Someone politely informed me that this [fedoraforum.org] was the procedure to set default apps for various mime-types.

Yeah, that's noob friendly. Apparently, wasn't 'fixed' in 2.10, either. Is it fixed now?

Either way, lack of simple things like that, plus KDE's KIOslaves (which are beautiful, come on, who doesn't love fish:// or klik://), plus a far superior file browser (I've seen the gnome when I'm forced to load up a GTK app, which is rare).

How do I open from a network location in gnome? Can it be done? (In the file browser?)

Why don't I 'contribute' to the gnome project to make these things better? Simple: KDE already does them correctly for me.

Do I mind that other people are happy with gnome, or prefer gnome? No. But all you gnome-heads should stop stomping on other people's Desktop Environments. Seriously; Gnome doesn't work for some of us.

If the next OpenSuSE (which is my current distribution) has inferior KDE support, I'll be thrilled to move to a thriving Kubuntu.

There's nothing wrong with Gnome, for those who use it. But for some of us, gnome just doesn't cut it. Gnome may be different, Gnome may be more 'unix'. But some of us who actually use Linux as our sole operating system rely on KDE, and couldn't imagine switching to gnome.
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