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BF2's Persistent Scoring More Harm Than Good?

Zonk posted more than 8 years ago | from the i-earned-a-puppy-by-killing dept.

Games 55

jasoncart writes "Persistent scoring (where your score is counted from one gaming session to another) is the norm in MMORPGs, but using it in arguably less mature genres such as FPSs makes for interesting gameplay. " From the article: "The most prized asset for the competitive, ranking-sensitive Battlefield 2 player are the helicopters. These fearsome death machines are almost ludicrously overpowered, in the right hands. They feature a gunnery position with a nasty cannon (best for troop takedown), and TV-guided missiles (best for vehicles). The pilot, whose job is to grapple with the newbie unfriendly control system, and powerful engine also has access to a bank of effective-in-quantity missiles. Newbies inevitably do get hold of them sometimes, to disastrous effect - they are pretty difficult to fly until you get your head around the control system. I'm reminded of a driving school car around my way that says 'Everyone had to learn once!' on the back."

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Having experienced Both BF2 and 1942.. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13992492)

People gathering around the planes/helos is nothing new. The persistant scoring allows for long term strategies as well as "best in the round" type goals.

As for the disarray, I couldn't agree more. I'd be surprised if it took more than 6 organized people on a map of 40+ players to win a game of BF2.

Re:Having experienced Both BF2 and 1942.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13998309)

helicopters? hah, how about when a point-whoring medic revives you in front of the enemy (of course he is out of range for the camping apc) you die, he revives, you die again, he revives, you die again, he revives, why? for the freakn points, now your out of the game for what seems like forever just so some moron get get his revive points.

the point system has definately taken a lot of the fun out of the game, its more about points, and how many you get them actually winning or losing, or using any kind of strategy. All the stragtegies revolve around getting the most points.

Describes the Attack Helicopters... (2)

Short Circuit (52384) | more than 8 years ago | (#13992495)

...as the most sought-after vehicle. This is true. And the article describes a couple different ways players fight over them. My buddy is quite skilled at flying the attack helicopters; he gets them to do things that cause experienced players to bail out. Flying in vertical loops, regularly coming within inches of obstacles...it's like riding a roller coaster without safeties.

But I like flying gunner on the Black Hawk (or Chinese or MEC equiv.) better; and my buddy likes to pilot. Starting from scratch, we got our first promotions within a few hours of playing.

Re:Describes the Attack Helicopters... (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13992606)

it's like riding a roller coaster without safeties.

Except for the saftey of not actually being in a helicopter.

The problem with BF2... (1)

rlbond86 (874974) | more than 8 years ago | (#13992511)

Everyone just sits around and waits for the helepicopters. There's no teamwork. There's no cooperation. Just helicopters.

Re:The problem with BF2... (1)

Short Circuit (52384) | more than 8 years ago | (#13992602)

My buddy creates a squad. I join. We take a helicopter, and our orders. We get complimented by the commander.

Works for me. :)

Re:The problem with BF2... (1)

KDR_11k (778916) | more than 8 years ago | (#13997197)

Hey, that means free kills for the commander and his arty!

It kills the game (1)

chriso11 (254041) | more than 8 years ago | (#13992661)

The Helis are way overpowered, no doubt about it. It also keeps people from playing - you finally spawn (after the 10minute wait to finally join a game) and in 5 seconds a whoop-whoop-whoop helicopter sound is heard, and the screen goes red, and you die. That happens 30 seconds later when you spawn again. Then again. When you finally get into a tank, cool - now you're safe! Uh, no, actually you aren't...

A newbie can typically last longer than 30 secs in other multiplayer FPS games like Counterstrike, so I think the spawn campers are an especially vicious problem in Battlefield.

There needs to be a anti-air infantry unit to compensate for the Helis. The AntiAir platforms are too scarce to be useful.

But then again, this is my opinion after giving up on Battlefield 2 after a few attempts. It is a pretty cool game, but it's not easy to enjoy.

It's called air superiority, folks. (2, Insightful)

robbkidd (154298) | more than 8 years ago | (#13992740)

The Helis are way overpowered, no doubt about it. It also keeps people from playing - you finally spawn (after the 10minute wait to finally join a game) and in 5 seconds a whoop-whoop-whoop helicopter sound is heard, and the screen goes red, and you die. That happens 30 seconds later when you spawn again. Then again. When you finally get into a tank, cool - now you're safe! Uh, no, actually you aren't...

Welcome to warfare. Air superiority matters.

Three words: (1)

DoctaWatson (38667) | more than 8 years ago | (#13993724)

Black Hawk Down.

Read it or watch it. Air superiority is important, but in the real world, helicopters make easy targets.

Re:Three words: (1)

Profane Motherfucker (564659) | more than 8 years ago | (#13993801)

You don't need to look that early in history. Look at Vietnam. The US lost about 2 fuckloads of helicopters.

But the original poster is kind of spot on, mostly. The first, in my opinion, major conflict that was won in part of control of the air was the Spanish civil war. The Pacific theater in WWII was next, thanks to the US's use of carriers.

Re:Three words: (1)

vrai (521708) | more than 8 years ago | (#13996483)

Too damn right - even a Hind can be taken down with a single RPG (look at the Russian experience in Afghanistan). Why in BF2 does it take about five anti-tank rockets to down a single bloody Blackhawk?

They should make helocopters much more vunerable, as they were in BF:Vietnam; or introduce Desert Combat style anti-aircraft infantry.

Re:It kills the game (2, Informative)

XenoRyet (824514) | more than 8 years ago | (#13992776)

The spawn killing you describe does happen, but it's nowhere near as pervasive as you make it out to be. More importantly it only happens if your team is disorganized enough to be forced back into a single spawn point. You may have had a few bad experiences, but for the most part the BF2 system does in fact encourage teamwork. It's hard to get a disorganized team to work together, but when you do, you win. Most people figure this out pretty quickly, and thus are willing to work with others.

You'll always have the odd asshat around, but they don't dominate the game. The Choppers powerful, but not invincible. A coordinated attack will deal with them as well. Get on a squad and use that VOIP.

Re:It kills the game (1)

Short Circuit (52384) | more than 8 years ago | (#13993040)

It's not the choppers that make it a problem. In Gulf of Oman, if the USMC team gets stuck on the carrier, while the MEC holds all the capture points, it's pretty much game over.

Wait for an aircraft to spawn? You'll be dead before the pilot lifts off, having been bombed to pieces by enemy aircraft. Go for the boats belowdecks? If there are any left, you can expect to be shot to pieces by armor on shore.

Wake Island 2007 is even worse.

Re:It kills the game (1)

Taevin (850923) | more than 8 years ago | (#13992945)

The attack helicopters are very powerful, yes. The only time I've thought them to be overpowered was during one game where two guys (obviously very practiced) from a clan flew the Mi-28 on the Sharqi Peninsula map. The pilot was very good at flying and the gunner was extremely accurate. They effectively controlled most of the map by themselves... They made regular sweeps of the main USMC base easily killing all infantry and destroying the SuperCobra before it even got an inch off the roof, and captured and patrolled the surrounding bases in the meantime.

Except for that one instance, I've never found helicopters to be any more challenging than a tank. The Anti-Tank kit can be quite effective at destroying the helicopters as they come in for a close range attack or to capture a flag. The AA missile sites are also quite effective (especially since the majority of helicopter pilots are amateurs). The most effective means of taking out a helicopter (that I've seen) is a fighter jet. The fighter's cannon can do a lot of damage to a helicopter quickly. If there is some teamwork (I know, a very rare thing in BF2), the fighter pilot can coordinate with a soldier on the ground to have one use up the helicopter's flares and the other take it out with missiles. If a helicopter is spawn camping a base, just respawn as AT and you'll likely destroy it (especially since someone else spawning at the base has the same idea).

The key is teamwork. A well balanced squad that works together well can dominate the usually chaotic battlefield all by themselves. I personally love flying the attack helicopters, just because I find it to be extremely fun - I don't really care about score all that much. There have been games where I have the highest score by far because I kill everyone before they can even get a shot off at me. Other games, I never even fire a missile because the defenders were vigilant and coordinated enough to shoot me down quickly. So yes, most of the time BF2 is little more than a free-for-all with big guns and vehicles but the times you have a well coordinated team are awe inspiring :)

Re:It kills the game (1)

gothzilla (676407) | more than 8 years ago | (#13993686)

Two snipers with the .50 cal upgrade can chase a heli away. That rifle actually does a decent little chunk of damage, plus the shots go through the glass. Two snipers can injure the pilot and scare him away or whittle away at the heli till it has to leave. Combine that with an anti-tank troop spotting the heli and making his missile warning alarm go off and you negate the effectiveness of the heli.

Re:It kills the game (1)

p7 (245321) | more than 8 years ago | (#13993775)

I get a good number of heli kills using the Support Kit. If they are fresh, I can at least get them to head home to repair.

Re:It kills the game (1)

ScuzzMonkey (208981) | more than 8 years ago | (#13994461)

Yup... a few guys with Support kits turning their muzzles skyward for a bit are generally enough to chase off all but the most suicidal of pilots. I rarely get kills but frequently inflict enough damage to get them to back off. Also works well for shredding door gunners.

Learn to aim! (1)

crazed (811280) | more than 8 years ago | (#13996650)

I've taken out Helis by myself as an Anti Tank infantry... Then again, I haven't played since August because I got back into WoW, so I have no idea what the latest patch is like.

"Makes for Interesting Gameplay" (1, Interesting)

bateleur (814657) | more than 8 years ago | (#13992731)

If spawn camping is "interesting gameplay" I really don't want to see dull gameplay. I'd be interested to hear someone defend this as anything other than weak game design.

Re:"Makes for Interesting Gameplay" (2, Informative)

nick_davison (217681) | more than 8 years ago | (#13993521)

If spawn camping is "interesting gameplay" I really don't want to see dull gameplay. I'd be interested to hear someone defend this as anything other than weak game design.

OK...

During every major conflict, control of bridges, roads, etc. (choke points) has been critical. If you know where the enemy is coming from, sending his reinforcements in from, etc., then you can most efficiently use your resources.

During Operation Enduring Debacle, terrorists attacked a U.S. mess with mortars because going after the "spawn point" (where reinforcements come from) is often most efficient.

Spawn camping is a good way of killing large numbers of newbies and, occasionally, the odd veteran.

This is pretty much exactly as it is in the real world: Ambush a choke point and you'll wipe out huge numbers of idiots blithely marching though and idiots assigning resources will keep sending more to die - but anyone with half a clue will quickly find a means to address that inherrent problem.

Similarly, in a game like BF2, if people keep on respawning at the point they know they just got killed by someone who's infiltrated it, they deserve to die. Anyone with half a clue will immediately change their spawn point and respawn elsewhere, coming in with full health and full ammo to quickly kill someone they know is low on both and likely focused in just one direction.

Sure, in games where there are only one or two spawn points and it's an absolute point, that may not be the case. BF2 usually has several bases per side (save for the very beginning of rounds or the very end) and will spawn you in any of several different random locations around that point - making it very easy to go and kill the guy who's focused on just one point.

And that's where the balance comes in - the team whose spawn it is can pour out dozens of guys there - all of which can wittle the guy down; they can respawn elsewhere and run in with an absolute advantage; they can get their CO to put a UAV overhead or run a quick scan to pinpoint the camper, etc. All of those tricks give them a massive advantage over one guy who has a long run to get there and runs out of supplies.

Unless of course they don't think to use all those advantages - sure, then they're just sheep to the slaughter. But is that the game's fault due to bad design or theirs for not getting it well enough to be competitive?

Perhaps the problem isn't that the game has fundamentally bad gameplay (to me, it's just an additional interesting dynamic) but rather that those who don't grasp the tactics fall afoul of it just as inexperienced, poorly led troops will in the real world. Of course, just as 95% of drivers consider themselves above average, I'm sure 95% of gamers are unable to accept they may be well below average and thus those that are dying are doing so simply due to their not getting basic tactics.

The point with BF2, and it is a well balanced game, is that no one strategy ever gives you an upper hand against an intelligent enemy - for more than a couple of minutes:

Use armor, the enemy will respawn as anti-tank and you and your crew will die before ever getting a shot off. Use helecopters and the same holds true plus they'll be taking AA vehicles, manning the fixed AA (though I would like to see the game add shoulder mounted SAMs) and lobbing grenades at chopper spawn points. Camp a base, they'll spawn elsewhere and flank you. etc.

A smart player has a whole set of tricks and varies them constantly, as the situation demands, maintaining an overall edge. A stupid one falls victim to the same technique over and over - either from not learning or always being one technique behind a smarter player who varies techniques. But then, if you can't handle playing against constantly evolving smart players, that's what single player with AI difficulty settings is for.

Re:"Makes for Interesting Gameplay" (1)

bateleur (814657) | more than 8 years ago | (#13996092)

Good arguments, thanks (mod parent up !). I suppose what's needed is a way to ensure that this kind of mechanic doesn't interfere with a newbie's positive experience of the game. But then, the same could be said of a great many games.

Re:"Makes for Interesting Gameplay" (1)

nick_davison (217681) | more than 8 years ago | (#14003135)

If a newbie gets just as positive an experience as a veteran, what incentive remains to practice, improve, etc.?

Games are rewarding because they're a challenge that you ultimately get to feel you're getting better at. Make newbies just as successful as veterans and you lose any sense of them improving and thus any reason to keep trying.

Why, Zonk, why?! (4, Insightful)

wbren (682133) | more than 8 years ago | (#13992752)

Wait... what? This made it to slashdot's main page? I read the article, looking for anything that might be new, thought provoking or mildly interesting. What I found, however, was a rant about helicopters in BF2. It's the same type of rant you see all the time on gaming forums. It was fairly well-written, but the article really didn't even have much to do with persistent scoring. Mod me as a troll or whatever, but this really isn't slashdot material. It would find a better home on digg.com, a site without a traditional editorial system like /.

Re:Why, Zonk, why?! (1)

GeorgeMonroy (784609) | more than 8 years ago | (#13992851)

Apparently not much is Slashdot material these days but then again when it is posted all of the time does it not become the new defacto Slashdot material?

Re:Why, Zonk, why?! (0, Troll)

wbren (682133) | more than 8 years ago | (#13992967)

Apparently not much is Slashdot material these days but then again when it is posted all of the time does it not become the new defacto Slashdot material?
That's like saying George Bush sets the new standard for "presidential material". Just because he is the president doesn't mean he is everything a president should be, just like this story is on slashdot even though it isn't everything a slashdot story should be. "Slashdot material" is a constant term this equation.

PS - Sorry to make it political, but that's the best analogy I could come up with, honest.

Re:Why, Zonk, why?! (1)

GeorgeMonroy (784609) | more than 8 years ago | (#13993678)

True but if what is now posted is the norm then doesn't it become Slashdot material?

Re:Why, Zonk, why?! (3, Insightful)

Admiral Frosty (919523) | more than 8 years ago | (#13993200)

Well, not being a BF2 player myself, I found it interesting, even more so when reading the ./ comunnity's take on it.

Calm down, Zonk isn't apokolips. Yet.

Re:Why, Zonk, why?! (1)

BrynM (217883) | more than 8 years ago | (#13993943)

Mod me as a troll or whatever, but this really isn't slashdot material.
On the contrary, "Why the hell is this on the main page" comments invariably end up as +5. You may be right, but eventually it comes down to "You acutally have no say in what makes it to the main page". K5 might be that way, but /. never has been.

This karma-whoring tip brought to you by Microsfot - Where do you want to whore today?

You're kidding me (3, Insightful)

DingerX (847589) | more than 8 years ago | (#13993097)

Keeping persistent score records results in score-whoring? Who woula thunk it?

Ah, yeah, brings back to mind the good old days of Air Warrior and Warbirds, before I even played them, where there was a "bomber" ranking for the most damage. Someone figured which hangars got the highest score, and would fly around the map bombing those. Or heck, before that, on that PLATO MP flight sim, I recall...

Basic law folks: when you make recognition A depend on artificial measure B, you generate experts in achieving B. "No child left behind" or "Battlefield 2" -- it's the same thing: you make everything depend on a test, and you generate good test-takers.

Of course, in a game where there are other metrics than the personal one, you won't get all score-whores, but you will get your share. Welcome to teh intardnet.

Re:You're kidding me (1)

Have Blue (616) | more than 8 years ago | (#13994135)

MMORPGs are resistent to this because they model a real economy- if something is being whored, the excess supply will bring its price and value down until it's not considered worth whoring any more (in theory). FPSes don't have this ability- there's an infinite supply of everything. Perhaps that's the main mistake of Battlefield- it should have some system by which if everyone and their brother jump into helicopters then helicopters become rarer or weaker automatically. (Or the game could just be unbalanced.)

"Less mature"? (2, Informative)

Pluvius (734915) | more than 8 years ago | (#13993347)

In what way, exactly? Couldn't be referring to the classic definition of "mature;" you see a lot more blood and "adult" stuff in FPSes than in MMORPGs. And FPSes have been around longer than MMORPGs, so it couldn't be talking about age, either. The only other thing I can think of is that the maturity levels of the types of players that play the two genres are significantly different, and, well, that would be inaccurate [ytmnsfw.com] (NSFW).

Rob

Re:"Less mature"? (1)

Khakionion (544166) | more than 8 years ago | (#13997521)

Yes, mod parent up, +1 Correct.

Other people have realized that this is just someone's rant on helicopters veiled as a commentary on persistent scoring. The "less mature" potshot he takes only serves to drive home the point that the author's completely uninterested in actually saying anything worthwhile.

Article Synopsis: omg lay off u heli fag0t

Huh (3, Insightful)

thesnarky1 (846799) | more than 8 years ago | (#13993357)

I think this article is somewhat one sided. It appears the author (who admits to being addicted, I feel his pain *grin*) only has bad experiences playing.

Yea, I see people standing in lines 3 or 4 deep to get a plane or some such, and it is foolish. However, I also think many players eventually realize that fundamentally this is a team game. Yea, 6 organized players can easily win if everyone else is just running around. Heck, I've been places with one other buddy, and we can quite easily orchestrate a victory just by knowing the map and playing off the fact that people don't know how to team play (think support and engineer at a good ambush point, or spec ops and support, or medic and sniper, etc).

But I also have played on servers where admins *are* around all the time, where people get booted immediatly for TKing intentionally, or not playing for the team, but padding. You just have to go find a good server. As far as that goes, also playing in a clan is wonderful. I'm a member of COT (Covert Operations and tactics) and everynight I play with two or three guys from it. We have our own TeamSpeak server, that allows for effective communication, and we use XFire to track each other and allies in other servers.

Basically, if you play by yourself, and ignore that nice new "favorites" button on servers, yea, its gonna suck a lot of the time. But if you play with people you know and can train with, and on servers where you know admins are real close, I think that most of the points made in TFA aren't valid.

In a well trained group, or even just a group good at team play, you'll have two good guys in the chopper, that's their job. No one else waits for it, as they're filling another role. This all comes down to the maturity of the player, and how much they'll play for the team and listen to the commander, versus playing for themselves and their stats.

Re:Huh (2, Interesting)

Short Circuit (52384) | more than 8 years ago | (#13993934)

Hm. Must be admins that keep kicking me.

For whatever reason, sometimes, when I join a server, my teammates don't have the right uniform. Or the titles are red where they should be blue. (Yes, I'm aware of which team I'm on.) So I'll spawn, knock off one or two baddies who look like they're trying to cap the spawn point, see "mikemol6453 [teamkills] soandso", and realize there's something screwy going on again, and cope with it.

And after a few minutes of playing, I'll get, "You have been kicked. This is usually the result of excessive teamkills or a successful kick vote." But it's happened when my score was positive, and I didn't get any notification of a kick vote.

It's frustrating.

Re:Huh (1)

thesnarky1 (846799) | more than 8 years ago | (#13994278)

Now, I did not comment on bugs in the game, merely gameplay itself. But yes, I know its very buggy. However, if you realize that you've got that bug (and its not hard to notice after the first teamkills notice) merely logging back fixes it. I'm not defending buggy software, just noting that most people complain about the bug in game, rather then just log back in. As for getting kicked, server's have an upper limit of TKs before you get kicked, though that can be turned off, I believe. Your score might be unaffected, but still have it count as a TK, hence is why this is a bug, and they don't know what causes it.

But as always, if you don't like the software, don't play it. I happen to like the game enough that when I see these bugs, I'll just quit out and come back. But then, being a programmer, I know how hard it is to make something on this scale bug free.

Re:Huh (1)

Short Circuit (52384) | more than 8 years ago | (#13996731)

I didn't say I didn't like the software. When it works, it's the most enjoyable FPS I've played. And to echo others' comments, all you need to do is cooperate with one or two other organized players, and winning a map become fairly easy.

Obvious (1)

Rhys (96510) | more than 8 years ago | (#13998287)

It isn't like this same problem comes up and keeps coming up in other games. Warcraft has the same problem in the battlegrounds. Some people are tools and just want to frag the enemy "to gain rank." (which is minor compared to the gain for winning the match but hey what do I know? I'm only rank 3 at level 29.)

Thankfully those idiots apparently have moved out of the 20-29 bracket on my server, because there's now competition to run the flag. So now I and my friends (coordinated on teamspeak as well) sit midfiled and deny the alliance access to anything but their base. Meanwhile our flag runner has a field day as the alliance flail against the offensive defense that is us four.

Re:Huh (1)

Thrymm (662097) | more than 8 years ago | (#13999230)

I agree.

I love the team aspect and always try to find a squad of competent players unless im playing with people I am friends with. I mainly use medic and dont bother with the planes/choppers. I will take time on single player mode some day and learn as I did with Desert Combat.

The thing that gets to me the most is when you have a squad leader who is just flying around in his 2 man helicopter and thus killing the chance to have a squad spawn on him. But that isnt a big issue when you can leave to create your own squad and then direct an attack or defense.

How about this: (1)

Blaaguuu (886777) | more than 8 years ago | (#13993530)

Everything Electronic Arts Does Is More Harm Than Good.

The statement is very narrow in its perspective. (3, Informative)

WidescreenFreak (830043) | more than 8 years ago | (#13993741)

As someone who has been playing (and more often than not enjoying) BF2 since the day that it came out, I want to mention some points. I want to make a disclaimer that I am not a very good chopper pilot, even though I am getting better.

"Persistent scoring (where your score is counted from one gaming session to another) is the norm in MMORPGs, but using it in arguably less mature genres such as FPSs makes for interesting gameplay. " From the article: "The most prized asset for the competitive, ranking-sensitive Battlefield 2 player are the helicopters. These fearsome death machines are almost ludicrously overpowered, in the right hands. They feature a gunnery position with a nasty cannon (best for troop takedown), and TV-guided missiles (best for vehicles).

Bull. They're not all that easy to fly and a lot of times you'll get two helicopter pilots in the same level who are skilled and therefore see each other as the threat. So, while they're busy trying to take each other out, I'm busy manning the anti-aircraft or the anti-tank. (Yes, I've actually taken down helicopters with a combination of two anti-tank rounds and the shotgun upgrade.) Having played just short of 100 hours, the times that I've had to deal with helicopter pilots that do nothing but massacre are very rare. And if you find a server with that kind of pilot and no one to counter-act, there are hundreds (sometimes thousands) of other servers that you're more than welcome to connect to. And - believe it or not - vehicle-mounted machines gun can be devastating to helicopters!

Additionally, being a gunner means shit if the pilot (A) is more focused on his own points and (B) can't get it through his head that the pilot is supposed to line up the shot for the gunner.

Personally, I find the jets in the hands of a good pilot to be far more devastating than a helicopter.

The pilot, whose job is to grapple with the newbie unfriendly control system, and powerful engine also has access to a bank of effective-in-quantity missiles. Newbies inevitably do get hold of them sometimes, to disastrous effect - they are pretty difficult to fly until you get your head around the control system. I'm reminded of a driving school car around my way that says 'Everyone had to learn once!' on the back."

That's why you do one of two things:
  • PLAY THE SINGLE PLAYER CAMPAIGN! There are a number of single player levels that have helicopters and aircraft available to them. In single player, you can do whatever the hell you want because there are no other players to piss off due to being a newbie. The area that you can cover will be small since the single-player campaign is only made of 16-player maps, but you can still get flying skills.
  • Start a multiplayer server that no one has access to. When the game starts, you should still be able to do whatever you want. There won't be another player, of course, so the level won't actually start, but you should still be able to fly. If you have a second (or third) system, you should be able to start a 64-player map on a stand-alone server, connect with one or two other systems, and have the 64-player map to yourself.
  • Find a server where the players really don't have a clue or servers that don't have a lot of players, like the 32-player maps that only have about 10 people on them. (There are quite a few of these.) They other players are usually too busy trying to figure out how to capture bases than figuring out how to fly, giving you ample opportunity to learn.

This article sounds more to me like sour grapes. "Oh, wah. That helicopter guy is just SO good! How can we ever compete against him!" Well, he was once a helicopter newbie, too. He was once clueless about how to fly it, too. Just because you're not very good now doesn't mean that you can't get to his skill level if you stop whining and do one of the things that I mention above. And once you get your first helicopter-based kill, you'll just be more eager to get even better. So, stop whining and just do it. The other guy did. That's why he's good!!

Re:The statement is very narrow in its perspective (1)

prezkennedy.org (786501) | more than 8 years ago | (#13993833)

And once you get your first helicopter-based kill, you'll just be more eager to get even better. So, stop whining and just do it. The other guy did. That's why he's good!!

Yeah except he probably did it for eight hours a day for two months. I'm a decent copter pilot, but some of the people that play that game really are cheap.

Oh yeah, and the missiles are still a joke. If it were that easy to evade them in real life, nobody would ever get shot down, even the Iraqis during Desert Storm.

Re:The statement is very narrow in its perspective (1)

GravelordBocephus (873797) | more than 8 years ago | (#13994284)

You took out a chopper with 2 AT rockets and a shotgun? Must've been some pretty darned noob opponents. Contrary to popular belief, just because you can hover and hose a spawn point with machine gun fire doesn't mean you should. Hovering means you're vulnerable.

There are approximately three ways to take out a helicopter with a decent pilot. The first and least likely is with AT rockets. Don't get me wrong, I love playing anti-tank, but you'll never hit a moving helicopter unless you get the perfect shot lined up. And because helicopters are infinitely more mobile than you are on foot, you'll never be able to outmaneuver a chopper pilot. You just have to hope they place themselves in your sights, essentially. Rockets are slow compared to helicopters.

Secondly, there are anti-aircraft emplacements. I know people who claim they're awesome with them, but I've never seen them used effectively. Maybe I'm just too unskilled to use them and play with a bunch of rookies, but it seems to me there are two many flaws with them to justify using them. They make you defenseless against ground targets, they give the pilot a warning, and they're just stupidly inaccurate. I've had 12+ miss streaks against pilots too dumb to hit the countermeasures button. That brings me to the next flaw, you get two missiles and then about a half hour of reloading.

The final, and in my opinion most likely method of taking down a helicopter is with a vehicle-mounted machine gun or anti-air platform. With a properly concealed Vodnik, it's not too hard to take down a helicopter using only the machine gun. Step into a linebacker or something similar, and suddenly you can down a helicopter almost as easily as they can snuff you out. Helicopters still have the advantage due to their superior speed and ability to move in three dimensions, as well as their ability to fire more missiles before reloading.

The above was written keeping attack helicopters in mind. The blackhawk is a different bird all together. My main beef with BF2 balance is that there are no efficiant counters to aircraft besides other aircraft? Tanks crush infantry. Choppers maul tanks. Jets destroy choppers. What takes down jets? Other jets. But only if they feel like antagonizing each other. It's more practical to ignore the other jets and just fly around eating vehicles. Anti-air vehicles have great difficulty hitting with missiles, while aircraft can bomb them with impunity.

Yes, I do play a lot of Strike at Karkand.

Re:The statement is very narrow in its perspective (1)

WidescreenFreak (830043) | more than 8 years ago | (#13994403)

You took out a chopper with 2 AT rockets and a shotgun? Must've been some pretty darned noob opponents. Contrary to popular belief, just because you can hover and hose a spawn point with machine gun fire doesn't mean you should. Hovering means you're vulnerable. Don't get me wrong, I love playing anti-tank, but you'll never hit a moving helicopter unless you get the perfect shot lined up.

Actually, when you learn how to lead properly, it's not that difficult to hit a moving chopper with AT unless he's moving at full speed perpendicular to your position. The shotgun blasts were from the upgraded shotgun with magazine in rapid succession at very close range (probably only about 15 meters above) so they were able to ding it just enough to make it go away after the two AT hits. In fact, this just happened last night.

Secondly, there are anti-aircraft emplacements. I know people who claim they're awesome with them, but I've never seen them used effectively. Maybe I'm just too unskilled to use them and play with a bunch of rookies, but it seems to me there are two many flaws with them to justify using them. They make you defenseless against ground targets, they give the pilot a warning, and they're just stupidly inaccurate. I've had 12+ miss streaks against pilots too dumb to hit the countermeasures button. That brings me to the next flaw, you get two missiles and then about a half hour of reloading.

There are some fundamental design flaws with the AA as far as I'm concerned. I particularly dislike how the rockets seem to go every which way except to the target, even if the target is heading directly away from you in a straight line and there are no other heat sources to lock onto! The idea that even after you fire if you lose the lock then the missiles that you've already launched also lose their lock is also not very believable. Let's not forget the the enemy is clearly in visual sight but the missiles still won't lock. Uh huh. That certainly is not the fault of the pilot of the enemy vehicle, but it does help to bolster the statement about aircraft being tougher than they should be, not so much because of the strength of the chopper but because of the ineffectiveness of anti-aircraft weaponry.

The final, and in my opinion most likely method of taking down a helicopter is with a vehicle-mounted machine gun or anti-air platform. With a properly concealed Vodnik, it's not too hard to take down a helicopter using only the machine gun. Step into a linebacker or something similar, and suddenly you can down a helicopter almost as easily as they can snuff you out.

Agreed. I even had one guy complain about downing his chopper with my mounted MG -- as though this was somehow unbelievable for him. I guess he assumes that air combat is only for air vehicles. :)

Yes, I do play a lot of Strike at Karkand.

Same here.

Re:The statement is very narrow in its perspective (1)

MayonakaHa (562348) | more than 8 years ago | (#13994651)

You forgot the fourth.. but not many people use it well.

The almighty .50 cal sniper rifle. It's tough as nails to get a good shot lined up on a heli pilot, but when you get one it's like heaven shined down on you for a moment. I always love watching a fairly noob pilot (I say fairly because they have to learn how to hover first) hover over a spawn point. They always act surprised when suddenly they're slumping over the controls and the heli drops like a rock into the awaiting defense force.

choppers are hardly over powered (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#13993767)

2 jeeps can easily take down a chopper if they are well hidden. 2 jeeps vs chopper unless chopper knows exactly where the jeeps are = jeeps win every time.
planes are the only overpowered viechles because aa guns dont work. fix AA guns everything falls into place. And fix constant prone jumping bug :P

Thresh and the PGL (1)

tfinniga (555989) | more than 8 years ago | (#13993772)

This reminds me of a story back with quake 1.. the best link I could find was in the shugashack archives [shugashack.com] .

The basic idea is that you needed 250 kills on monitored servers in order to qualify for a tournament. Thresh was so well known, that whenever he joined a server, everyone else would leave, assuming that it would no longer be useful to stick around. In the end, he just got a bye.

He Hasn't Played Much BF2 (1)

TychoCelchuuu (835690) | more than 8 years ago | (#13994362)

Maybe he's playing on the wrong servers or something. I'm a crappy chopper pilot, but nobody ever flies them so I usually hop in them from time to time just so they don't sit there, alone, waiting, unused.

HAHAHA (1)

Lord_Dweomer (648696) | more than 8 years ago | (#13994762)

Its funny they mention the cannons on choppers because I was under the impression that they are more ineffective than the stock anti tank machine gun. Seriously, I've sat there and shot at some guy in the head and put about 30 rounds into him, registering hits, and he didn't die.

As for the controls....well, it makes hovering a bit easier, but I like a lot of other pre-bf2 desert combat chopper whores much preferred flying the old choppers. Sure, it wasn't exactly realistic, but made for MUCH better gameplay. And rockets actually did something.

I WILL admit the TV is a very cool weapon, but usually only when you're on teamspeak as it usually requires communication to line up correctly.

In regard to the stat system.....yeah, people are stat whores, but I don't think everybody is so completely obsessed with them. They get several badges, unlock a couple of weapons, and suddenly they focus on the gameplay again because it takes forever to get the next rank.

That being said, I find it unfortunate that because of the stat system, it seems people only want to play on ranked servers, which is making EA a BUTTLOAD of cash since those cost more to operate since they're "official". And since they'll ban your unranked server if you unlock all weapons, nobody plays on unranked servers. This is a real shame, but I'm sure EA will stick with this model in the future because not only does it lock players into their servers, but it adds an element of Skinner to the whole thing with the drive to unlock more things, thus addictive gameplay. My hats off to whatever marketing person thought that one up.

Re:HAHAHA (1)

Short Circuit (52384) | more than 8 years ago | (#13997059)

Seriously, I've sat there and shot at some guy in the head and put about 30 rounds into him, registering hits, and he didn't die.

It's an explosive shell. For whatever reason, explosive weapons don't seem to hit player models directly. Aim at the ground under them, and let the explosion harm them.

I WILL admit the TV is a very cool weapon, but usually only when you're on teamspeak as it usually requires communication to line up correctly.

Yeah, it's hard if the pilot's rotating a great deal. But if he's heading towards the guy I want to shoot, I can usually get the shot off.

Blah (1)

heartless_ (923947) | more than 8 years ago | (#13995956)

Most if not all of the article are things that do need to be looked at, but really most of them are avoidable now. If you don't care about stats play on unranked servers... there is a variety out there with all kinds of settings; including NO helicopters.

Stat padders and spawn campers are owned regularly by good admins. If you play on a ranked server visit the website/forums that support them! Get into the communities so you know what to expect. Works wonders!

So far they have been relatively good at banning and removing the points of people caught stat padding. They had controls in place from day one to catch any instances of padding. If someone simply vehicle whores on a map... well then thats what they do.

Honestly they should of made a Pilot and Driver kit. Weak infantry weapons, but they would allow you to fly or drive. Then limit the # allowed to the # of vehicles/aircraft available on a map.

Sad thing is if the other side has a good pilot (helo or plane) and your side does not... you are doomed to fail on infantry missions. Planes and helos just get accross the map way to fast.

And anyone that has played BF2 for a good bit know damn well planes > helos > tanks > infantry. Also if you did a search on the most played maps... Strike at Karkand would come up #1 with the other urban maps right behind it. Lots of spawn camping vehicles and some helo action, but by far much more bearable.

Great squad baed gameplay, but lost in the solo mentality of how the vehicles dominate the maps.

Re:Blah (1)

MacBrave (247640) | more than 8 years ago | (#13996815)

Also if you did a search on the most played maps... Strike at Karkand would come up #1 with the other urban maps right behind it.

How true. Karkand has definately become the 'Omaha Beach' map of BF2.......

Depends on the server (1)

BenjyD (316700) | more than 8 years ago | (#13996224)

As in all online games, it depends on the server. I have had fantastic games of BF2, working as a squad, with medics, support and assault all working together. Of course there are servers with camping snipers, no teamwork and a commander who doesn't know which buttons to click, but there are alternatives.

Another issue is the maps - I always play the more urban maps like Sharqi, where helicopters and tanks have much less advantage. I don't know why they bothered putting in the AntiAir missiles as they are so under-powered, but I have taken out many helicopters with the AntiTank kit on those maps.

It's no different from BF1942 - if you played on the lame maps (El Alamein, original Market Garden), you get lamers.

persistent scoring for counter-strike in australia (1)

yuud (690436) | more than 8 years ago | (#13996294)

check this out: http://acssr.slowchop.com/ [slowchop.com]

from the FAQ:

How are statistics collected?
Your data is collected by doing a server query to every server once every two minutes. The server returns a list of players, their current score and how long they've been in the server for.

How is the score measured?
I've tried to calculate your score fairly. If you have a high P/M (points per minute) value but only have played for an hour, your score will be lower then someone with the same P/M over a longer time. On the other hand, if someone has played for 10 hours and has a higher P/M then someone who's played for 20 hours, the scores will be similar. The more you play the harder it is to raise your score unless you raise your P/M.

To calculate the score, the system works out a 'multiplier' depending on how long you've played. The multiplier is a number between 0 and 1. When you first start playing it will be very close to 0. If you've played for 10 hours or more it will be 0.9 or higher. You will never be able to hit 1.0.

Your score is worked out by multiplying the multiplier with your P/M. Here are the formulas:

multiplier = 1 - 3600 / ( seconds + 3600 )
score = multiplier * points / seconds * 100000

Why don't you track users by their steam id?
Because you can't get that information just by polling a server. You only get 3 things per person - Name, Points and Time on server.

Why are ranks out of order?
The actual score is updated continuously, but your ranking is only updated 4 times a day. The reason for this is that it takes a lot of CPU power to process everyone's rank.

Why don't you use frags/death instead of frags/minute?
Half Life 2 servers only give us 3 bits of information per player: their name, their points(frags) and their connected time. No death data is accessable! Check it out for yourself, do a query on a server and see if you can find their points to death ratio!

Just too hard to shoot down (1)

BruceTheBruce (671080) | more than 8 years ago | (#13999663)

I don't think the weapons on the choppers are overpowered, I expect their weapons to be devastating. I think the choppers are just too well armored. It should never take three anti-tank rockets to take down a helicopter. Flying the choppers should be as much about limiting your exposure to enemy fire as launching rockets. When in a vehicle you can use the surroundings to your advantage to limit aircrafts' avenues of attack. Don't expect to park an M1A1 in the middle of an open field and not attract some destructive attention. I do agree the game needed better AA defenses overall though. One of the support classes definitely needed shoulder fired AA rockets. As far as point-whoring, it's to be expected in any scored system. Find a server where team based play is important to everyone.
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