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Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD Not Over Yet

CmdrTaco posted more than 8 years ago | from the just-gimme-hd-now dept.

Television 305

samkass writes "Here is a good summary of the latest technical wheeling-and-dealing between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. Among things that were new to me: the addition of a "red" 9GB HD format to Blu-Ray that would make initial Blu-Ray content (that fits) even cheaper than HD-DVD. Also, more discussion about managed copy (AACS, BD Plus, and ROM Mark) and iHD (HD-DVD) vs BD-J/Java (Blu-Ray)."

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Rootkit Included? (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14035283)

Isn't Blu-Ray Sony's technology? Does it come with a free rootkit?

Re:Rootkit Included? (1, Insightful)

rovingeyes (575063) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035510)

I don't understand why people are given moderation points who don't know how to use it. As of this moment, 50% of moderators think that the parent comment is overrated. I say the moderators are in over their head. With all the recent controversy with Sony I don't see why is it overrated to question their future technology? Heck if they can botch your system for a stupid country music, think what they'll do for Matrix or LOTR etc etc. They are caught with their pants down now; what it means is that they learnt their lessons and will force a bill or something that makes it legal for them to install rootkits (it is not far fetched at all).

Re:Rootkit Included? (1)

Poltras (680608) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035725)

even more when the guy is an AC... and that was a good joke (not necessarly +5, but at least something).

Re:Rootkit Included? (2, Funny)

DimGeo (694000) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035677)

Do you mean LGPL'ed [slashdot.org] rootkit? ;)

Re:Rootkit Included? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14035678)

Yes, it is free as in beer.

Re:Rootkit Included? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14035721)

I was a blue-ray fan until that fiasco. I'll never buy sony again.

Format Wars! (3, Funny)

unik (929502) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035286)

Sounds like a good text-based game..

In other news (-1, Offtopic)

Spytap (143526) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035287)

...making you type so many acronyms makes you types things like "Not OVer"

Re:In other news (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14035385)

Let's get OVer the spelling mistakes! :-)

not OVer? (0, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14035292)

Can we at least not put such trivial errors in the SUbject line?

Or am I ASking too much?

How about something DRM-Free? (5, Insightful)

vitalyb (752663) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035298)

I'll be damned it I buy with my own money a device that decides where, how and in what way I watch the media I buy with my other money. Get me a DRM-Free device and I'll rush to buy it.

Re:How about something DRM-Free? (5, Insightful)

CaymanIslandCarpedie (868408) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035422)

That is the main reason, I'm leaning toward HD-DVD. Blu-Ray seems much better in many ways, but with one of HD-DVD's core mandates is it must allow copying and streaming to other devices it makes me a bit more comfortable. Blu-ray only mentions such things in passing and half-heartedly at best. The recent Sony rootkit actions certainly don't make me any more comfortable with thier Blu-ray either!

Re:How about something DRM-Free? (0, Troll)

Xarius (691264) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035665)

What makes you think Sony's Entertainment division has much to do with their electronics division?

It's a big company and screw ups do happen, but let's all focus on the bad like the good little sheep drones we are.

Disclaimer: Not a Sony fanboy, just sick of all the pessimistic crap.

Re:How about something DRM-Free? (4, Interesting)

ILikeRed (141848) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035667)

HD-DVD contains Microsoft's DRM software (iHD) (not that Blueray is any better, although their DRM software uses Java)... so you are saying you trust Microsoft to allow you fair use rights?

This is what the fighting is about - these companies could care less about the formats, and very little about the final cost per disk, this is a fight to see who gets to provide the DRM software on your media.

Re:How about something DRM-Free? (2, Insightful)

NotoriousQ (457789) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035750)

AFAIK, iHD and B/Java are not DRM, but rather a system for playing menus. The DVD system is kinda cool, but I can not wait for what cool things people will do with it once they get a turing-complete system in there.

But yes, both discs will include pretty much the same DRM. And until it is going to be cracked, I will not be able to play it. And yes, I will have the *-R version of one of those drives for backups.

Re:How about something DRM-Free? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14035741)

it must allow copying and streaming to other devices

It must allow a copy. And while the HD-DVD group "hopes" that studios will provide this copy for free, the mechanism allows the studios to charge for it if they wish to.

Re:How about something DRM-Free? (1)

krakelohm (830589) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035600)

Yes that is a good thought, but very unrealistic. I understand the need of content providers to have some drm to protect their investments, as long as it is unobtrustive and does not hampen my abilites. I know will be called a fanboy for this but the perfect example in my eyes is the iTunes setup. I know there is drm there... but it has yet to hold me back in the 2+ years I have been buying music on iTunes.

The real question is: (4, Insightful)

rob_squared (821479) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035300)

What would porn choose?

Re:The real question is: (1)

sp5 (867987) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035396)

What would porn choose?

The adult entertainment industry is often an early adopter of new technology, so I wouldn't be surprised if whatever they choose becomes the standard.

In fact, they were the first ones to cash in on a concept that just now is being embraced by Hollywood... downloadable videos.

-sp5

Re:The real question is: (0)

MindStalker (22827) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035420)

I believe most have already backed Blue-Ray according to past slashdot articles. Sony learned its lesson about Porn from betamax.

Re:The real question is: (4, Informative)

l33t-gu3lph1t3 (567059) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035502)

High-Definition video is not kind to the porn industry. Porn makers found that when they went from VHS to DVD, the increased on-screen detail forced them to use softer lights and better filters, and more makeup for the actresses. High-definition really brings out the detail in the flesh, which, unfortunately for porn, means that the viewer gets to see that the pornstarlet isn't all that good looking. To be honest the only porn genre that benefits from HDTV is amateur porn - where people only care about realism, and not softened, impossible beauty. While VHS offered portability and privacy, and DVDs offered random-access and lower production costs, HD-DVD and Bluray offer no tangible benefits to the porn industry.

Re:The real question is: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14035627)

To be honest the only porn genre that benefits from HDTV is amateur porn - where people only care about realism, and not softened, impossible beauty.

Impossible beauty? Where are you getting this porn from? My collection features a great many desperate mingers, many of whom you couldn't drink pretty.

Re:The real question is: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14035649)

Where are YOU getting your porn from?

Re:The real question is: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14035688)

HD-DVD and Bluray offer no tangible benefits to the porn industry

You notice an improvement when you have that 60 inch vagina on your screen. Anyone who wants a 60 inch wide screen vagina is going to want HD-DVD or Blueray.

Re:The real question is: (1)

bafio (879076) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035521)

haha... wait is this question not a joke??

Re:The real question is: (1)

Gardenhead (877036) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035679)

Some say the reason why the world went for VHS over beta was because the porn industry went VHS, even though beta was supposedly the better format. Something to keep in mind.

Re:The real question is: (1)

NanoGator (522640) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035707)

"What would porn choose?"

The internet. This isn't one of those scenarios where porn is going to make a hero out of either format.

rootkit (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14035305)

I know that I for one will choose te one that includes a rootkit for FREE!!!! I love getting free things with my new technology so much!!!

BluRay will win says TFA (3, Interesting)

bodger_uk (882864) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035308)

From TFA: Some analysts who have been following the saga have already predicted a winner. Ted Schadler, vice president at Forrester Research, released a report that proclaimed, "Blu-ray Will Win a Pyrrhic Victory Over HD-DVD." Schadler says he's long believed that Blu-ray held the edge due to its superior capacity and the fact that Sony's PlayStation 3 will play Blu-ray movie discs. Oh really, and MS support via the 360 for HD-DVD won't have a cancelling effect on this? Oh and Warner will release content on both formats? Well, there's a surprise! Did anyone expect them to pick a side and alienate a potential market? Hmm, slightly cynical today methinks!!

Re:BluRay will win says TFA (1)

hattig (47930) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035351)

But the 360 utilises a standard DVD drive.

Maybe they'll move over to a HD-DVD drive next year to counteract the PS3 launch, but that'll piss off all the early adopters. It'll also increase the hardware costs, something that Microsoft won't want to do.

XBOX360 DOES NOT SUPPORT HD-DVD (5, Informative)

ergo98 (9391) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035432)

Oh really, and MS support via the 360 for HD-DVD won't have a cancelling effect on this?

This keeps getting stated on here, and it is entirely untrue. People are confused because Microsoft tepidly put their backing behind HD-DVD, yet the Xbox360 actually uses neither - it is standard old school 9GB DVD.

Re:BluRay will win says TFA (1)

Red Flayer (890720) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035444)

Well, that's not TFA. That's one source quoted by TFA. Without reading the research that Schadler used to come to his conclusion, I won't dispute it.

"Schadler says he's long believed that Blu-ray held the edge due to its superior capacity and the fact that Sony's PlayStation 3 will play Blu-ray movie discs. Oh really, and MS support via the 360 for HD-DVD won't have a cancelling effect on this?"

Well, it depends. -(some number) +(some other number) != 0.
Perhaps more people will be purchasing movies to watch on their PS3 than people will for the 360? Without studying the market, there's no way you can say the effects would cancel out.

Also, "Ted Schadler, vice president at Forrester Research, released a report that proclaimed, 'Blu-ray Will Win a Pyrrhic Victory Over HD-DVD.' " (emphasis mine)

In a pyrrhic victory, even the winner loses. I think Schadler's point is that in the end, Blu-ray will have a larger market share, possibly close to all the market. However, the cost in lost sales due to the format wars will be extremely damaging to market acceptance of the new tech. For example, there is no way I'm going to buy a Blu-ray or HD-DVD player (outside of my consoles) until I know for sure which format will be supported 5-10 years from now. Until then, I'll stick to plain old DVD.

Re:BluRay will win says TFA (5, Funny)

Golias (176380) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035460)

"Blu-ray Will Win a Pyrrhic Victory Over HD-DVD."

So, they will win the platform war, but so many Sony employees will be killed in the process that it will be judged to have not been worth it?

Bold prediction there.

Re:BluRay will win says TFA (1)

Bogtha (906264) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035668)

Maybe they meant pyric [reference.com] victory, in that Blu-ray DVD burners will be cheaper than HD-DVD burners ;)

Re:BluRay will win says TFA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14035631)

The Oct ed. of Medialine magazine seays that paramount will support both medias as well. lets not forget VHS vs BETA this is the same thing there will be a winner and those who choose poorly will be left with worthless and outdated hardware...Laserdisk anyone?

Can Blue Ray (Red) play on existing computers now? (4, Interesting)

NigelJohnstone (242811) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035309)

"The resulting disc will be encoded with a high-definition video codec, and though it will be a red-laser disc (not a blue-laser disc as used by the other formats within the Blu-ray Disc specifications), it will only play back in Blu-ray Disc players and recorders. Even though vendors will be able to manufacture the disc on existing DVD production lines, it is clearly not the same as an HD-DVD. (One of HD-DVD's strengths is its purported ability to be produced at a low cost on existing, albeit modified, DVD production lines)."

If it's existing DVD production, is it readable by *existing* DVD players like those in a computer. In other words can I get a codec and play it in a PC, (even if I need to update the DVD firmware to do it)?
Sure the codec means it won't immediately be playable on the DivX/MPEG4/DVD boxes, but can it play on a PC?

If they can do that, that would be a HD-DVD killer.

Re:Can Blue Ray (Red) play on existing computers n (4, Informative)

MindStalker (22827) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035341)

At 9GB the short answer is no. Most likly the laser spacings will be tighter, this adjustment can be done easily on the production lines, but much more difficult to do on the average player.

Isn't it just a 2 layer DVD? (3, Insightful)

NigelJohnstone (242811) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035403)

Isn't it just a 2 layer DVD (or even a double side single layer DVD!)?

They say it can be made in standard plants, so it must be damn similar to a standard format presumably?

Re:Isn't it just a 2 layer DVD? (1)

MindStalker (22827) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035548)

Oh duh.. I feel stupid now.. Your probably right 9GB is a double layer disk. So they take a double layer disk incorperate the media codec for Hi-def tv into it so that you can made a hi-def movie on a regular DVD (abit holds less than 2 hours probably) I could definatly see the point.. Gawd do I feel stupid.

Re:Isn't it just a 2 layer DVD? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14035643)

It's ok to be wrong, as long as the moderators find you informative.

Re:Can Blue Ray (Red) play on existing computers n (1)

Sockatume (732728) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035660)

Sort of like MS-DOS floppies and Amiga floppies - essentially the same thing, but with enough difference to prevent use of one on the other without special hardware.

Re:Can Blue Ray (Red) play on existing computers n (2, Insightful)

grahams (5366) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035361)

If it's existing DVD production, is it readable by *existing* DVD players like those in a computer. In other words can I get a codec and play it in a PC, (even if I need to update the DVD firmware to do it)? Sure the codec means it won't immediately be playable on the DivX/MPEG4/DVD boxes, but can it play on a PC? If they can do that, that would be a HD-DVD killer.
The number of people that enjoy watching DVDs on their computer is only slightly larger than the number of people with HTPCs... The bump received from this minorty will not be enough to kill off any competition... As proven time and time again, content is king, and no minor technical advantages will win this war... Content (and to a lesser degree, price) will decide who wins, and with so many content producers lined up behind BluRay, it's looking bad for HD-DVD...

Maybe, but it would mean $50 players (3, Insightful)

NigelJohnstone (242811) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035450)

"The number of people that enjoy watching DVDs on their computer is only slightly larger than the number of people with HTPCs"

If its basically a DVD compatible thing that PCs can play with a codec/firmware tweak, then it is only a matter of time before the dirt cheap $50 DIVX/MPEG4/DVD players add support as a firmware change.
That market is huge, just look in an electrical store and they stack those buggers on pallets for volume sale.

That's what I'm thinking there, that this disk could become the volume market item, playing on computers and slightly more modern DVD(+mpeg4+divx) players together with PCs, and if you then go out and buy a HD TV, you get the high definition version too without upgrading your DVD's which would be another plus.

Re:Can Blue Ray (Red) play on existing computers n (1)

cvas (150274) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035447)

Am I missing something in your question or did you completely ignore the section you quoted when it says: "it will only play back in Blu-ray Disc players and recorders"?

Re:Can Blue Ray (Red) play on existing computers n (1)

NigelJohnstone (242811) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035485)

""it will only play back in Blu-ray Disc players and recorders"?"

They say it's encoded in a modern codec, so that doesn't mean it *can't* play back in PCs, it may simply mean the DVD firmware needs tweaked or this 'modern codec' may be the hurdle to overcome.

Re:Can Blue Ray (Red) play on existing computers n (1)

cvas (150274) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035614)

I still think you are reading too much into some of their words and making assumptions that aren't backed up by any facts in the article. You seem to be seeing the words "red laser" and "exisiting production lines" and then assuming that it will just take a few teaks and a firmware flash to make existing players work. I'm not saying that is impossible, but nothing in the article even hints at it and the section you quoted flat out says it won't happen.

Re:Can Blue Ray (Red) play on existing computers n (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14035471)

If they can do that, that would be a HD-DVD killer.

Maybe so, but we'd all be losers if such a crippled format wins. You can bet that if it does, we'll have these "red ray" discs (aka DVDs) for a long time to come, since upgrading to blu-ray production will always be "too expensive" compared to spending $0 to change anything.

Re:Can Blue Ray (Red) play on existing computers n (1)

PhilHibbs (4537) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035480)

If it's existing DVD production, is it readable by *existing* DVD players like those in a computer.
No, that's why it's a Blu-Ray format!

The data structure will be different - different encryption (CSS is so thoroughly cracked that they won't use it any more) and possibly even a different track layout. It will use the red laser that the Blu-Ray drive uses to read old DVDs, that's just about the only thing that it has in common with DVDs.

Content? (3, Insightful)

SillySnake (727102) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035310)

Every article about HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray makes arguments about content.. This one even quotes:
"Assuming equal pricing and availability of hardware"
The thing is, I don't forsee it being equal availability of hardware.. I don't know how many PS2s have been sold, or were sold within three months of release, but I'm sure it was a lot larger number than the number of early adoptors that would run out and buy a brand new HD-DVD player.
I guess my point is, if there are for sure going to be millions of Blu-ray players in houses all over the US, and there's no such assurance about HD-DVD players, I can't see places stocking shelves full of HD-DVDs.

Content is Crap. (2, Insightful)

Znork (31774) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035698)

And physical medias as distribution method are on their way out. As such, the whole 'war' pretty much becomes irrelevant; whoever will be able to offer the best price/GB and the lowest drive price will win.

No HD-DVD in XBOX 360 V1 (1)

nonsequitor (893813) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035722)

The fact that there will be no HD-DVD player in the XBOX 360 means XBOX sales will not drive HD-DVD sales further illustrating your point. Though it will be interesting to see how fast they get HD-DVD capable XBOXs on the market and how much HD-DVD sales may be lost to the early adopters not having an HD-DVD player built-in.

The most ludicris part is how many games will come out on HD-DVD when 90% of the XBOX market does not have an HD-DVD player in their system already? How many people will be willing to upgrade after the initially disappointing performance of the single threaded, next-gen console games, when stacked next to games like Doom 3 on a new PC?

Sony has a huge advantage by making its initial release with Blu-Ray already included. The console market will decide this format war, because by the time the major studios have upgraded to delivering HD Content, the rest of the unwashed masses wont be voting with their dollars, and Microsoft has already surrendered while looking to boost marketshare for their system by beating Sony off the starting block.

Yes, it is. (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14035313)

The contest is over. Precisely because it won't *really* matter. While all these corporations squabble endlessly over proprietary formats, hardware specs, marketing schemes, and temporary alliances, the fact is that the true future of digital content distribution WILL be online. So all this cacophony is for a temporary technology. A few people will buy some discs and fewer hardware players during a very short period. Then, it will be looked back upon as having been over before it began.

And once that pan flashes, a few people in management are going to be revealed as dumbasses for misjudging technology.

Re:Yes, it is. (3, Insightful)

Xarius (691264) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035700)

Yeah, we don't have format wars online at all!

Oh wait, ogg and mp3, avi and mpeg, gif and png, doc and pdf, need I go on?

And I think people will prefer tangible, transferable property in the form of discs instead of one fat harddrive.

If what you said was true, no one would have CD's or cassettes, we'd just use radio.

You ARE joking, right? (5, Insightful)

WidescreenFreak (830043) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035746)

While all these corporations squabble endlessly over proprietary formats, hardware specs, marketing schemes, and temporary alliances, the fact is that the true future of digital content distribution WILL be online.

Not likely. Perhaps when FIOS becomes commonplace and available to every person on the face of the planet, but there is no chance that the mainstream user will accept on-line access as the only way to gain video in the near future.

A two-hour movie in really good, MPEG-2 quality takes up approximately 7-8 GB, depending on audio options. Even with a 6 Gb cable connection, that takes roughly three hours to download. (For those who hadn't noticed, that means that it would take longer to download than to watch, so streaming at full quality is not an option.)

Now, bring in HD. About 75 minutes of HD-quality material takes roughly the same amount of space. Expand that to a 2-hour movie and you're looking at anywhere between 12-14 GB of data. That same 6 Gb cable connection would take about six hours to download that movie. In the same amount of time, I could have run to the nearest BR/HD-DVD rental store, watched the movie -- possibly twice -- and returned it. This of course assumes that your "unlimited use" ISP doesn't then knock your ass down for using up "too much" of your "unlimited use" bandwidth after downloading three or four HD movies. And don't even THINK about doing streaming HD unless you've got some enormous network pipe to your house!

Even discounting the fact that every house will NOT be connected via FIOS (or even broadband) in the coming years, thus requiring a physical medium in order to watch the video content, people want a physical medium without restrictive DRM. That has been proven time and time again. The recent Sony debacle should be proof enough of that. People are obviously buying physical discs even though the music is available on-line.

Video games are also sold on-line by a lot of different vendors for a discounted price, yet boxed media are still preferred. Why? Because there is a comfort factor in having the disc in your hands, not worrying about if your computer is connected to the Internet in order to install and play it. There's also no concern about downloading it again or having to authenticate it again (for the most part), and so on.

Ah, so then comes the argument about backing the movies or games off to another medium in the event of a recovery or for backup purposes. Oh, wait. We can't use that argument because there is no need for physical media if everything is distributed on-line! You said so yourself.

On-line definitely has its place. The success of iTunes and the recent announcements by major networks to have their shows distributed electronically is definitely a step toawrds on-line distribution. But unless you plan on every house in the world having a dedicated DS3 connection, the notion that all material - particiularly HD - will be distributed exclusively through digital means is preposterous at best and will likely not come in any of our lifetimes. I guess that you also expect people to have multi-terrabyte storage for each system as well. After all, all of that content has to be stored somewhere when it's downloaded. Or did you actually expect people to be on-line for every movie that they want to watch? Well, I guess that makes a market for automotive broadband on the newest Winnebago line, doesn't it?

Oh, and by the way -- ALL technology is "temporary" because new technology is always evolving from old technology. So, your statement about "temporary technology" alone is fallacious.

In the meantime, please let us know what it is that you have been smoking because it seems like it's some really good shit. The fact that you've been modded as "Insightful" is staggering - or else it's indicative that mod points shouldn't be handed out as much as they are.

It's over for me no matter what anyone else does (4, Insightful)

scronline (829910) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035315)

Anything that supports Sony's Blu-Ray will not be supported by me personally, or grudgingly from my company. When you can't trust your supplier's scruples, you can't sell their products to the end user.

So, personally, anything using Blu-Ray will not be purchased by me.

Company wise, Blu-Ray will only be used at the express request from the customer.

Re:It's over for me no matter what anyone else doe (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14035394)

Holy passive sentences, Batman!

Re:It's over for me no matter what anyone else doe (2, Insightful)

Ender Ryan (79406) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035562)

Oh, and the folks behind HD-DVD are *SO* much more honest and ethical.

Not that I like Sony or anything. Basically, I despise them. But, quite frankly, I despise MS a lot more. At least Sony has to actually compete, whereas MS just throws its 800 lbs around to get its way. Every single new product they put out, they burn billions of dollars in an attempt to corner the market. Year after year, they just burn cash by the billions, not even looking ahead to profitability, just intent on cornering the entire market. Office and Windows just subsidise everything.

I'd love to say that I'll never support either company again. But I'll be honest, I'm a fucking media-whore. I love video games and movies and music.

Interestingly, ok, and offtopic :), in the case of music, if I can't copy it somehow, it's entirely worthless to me. So, they can only go so far before I *do* stop supporting them. I'm not going to buy something I can't even *use*.

/rant, heh

Re:It's over for me no matter what anyone else doe (1)

Xugumad (39311) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035574)

This is where I stand on Blu-Ray too, pretty much. I'm not unwilling to forgive Sony, so maybe I'll use their products again at some point, but until they show a grasp on the idea that backstabbing their customers is a bad idea, I'm having as little to do with them as possible.

Re:It's over for me no matter what anyone else doe (1)

ILikeRed (141848) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035596)

The sad thing is that Sony supported BlueRay uses Java, where as HD-DVD uses Microsoft's special DRM software. (Thus most of the fighting.) I hope China / Taiwan (or anyone else) comes out with a format that is just data... that is something I would buy.

Dear Sony, Toshiba, LG, Phillips etc. (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14035322)

I don't care! I don't care if BluRay is technologically superior to HD-DVD. I don't care if I can fit a whole extra GB on one type of disk, or if the other uses a slightly higher laser frequency, or if one can be be-rewritten 2billion times instead of "only" 1.7billion. Don't give a shit, thanks anyway!

Just agree on a fucking format and stick with it. I won't be buying anything; either BluRay or HD-DVD, until one format is clearly ahead. That means you; every single one of you petty little bastards, will lose out. Just like you all lost on on DVD writer format wars. Do I care what the difference is between DVD-R & DVD+R? Have I ever even seen a DVD-RAM disc? Fuck no, I just want to write a DVD that can be read in other drives. How much R&D did you all waste? How much additonal design is required to acomodate all these different standards? How many sales oppurtunities have been wasted because you've confused the market?

Same thing here. Now get on with it.

Re:Dear Sony, Toshiba, LG, Phillips etc. (3, Insightful)

aneurysm36 (459092) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035481)

again, unlike the old VHS vs Betamax days, this is not a war. there doesnt have to be a winner this time because all of these things are the same size. who won the dvd format war? +r or -r? ahh thats right, they both won and every drive sold now includes both technologies.

who will win? all of the technology companies. who will lose? us poor suckers who have no choice but to buy a drive that supports all formats.

Re:Dear Sony, Toshiba, LG, Phillips etc. (1)

Viper Daimao (911947) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035587)

who will lose? us poor suckers who have no choice but to buy a drive that supports all formats.

doesnt seem like such a bad thing to me. Im not really sure this is a winners/losers zero sum game. This is competition, and the market will decide.

First post? (1, Insightful)

garrett714 (841216) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035325)

Don't really know what else to say. Except Blu-Ray has a failure of a name, and people will naturally migrate to HD-DVD because they already know the acronym "DVD." (People don't like to learn new things!)

Re:First post? (0)

SillySnake (727102) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035353)

What could possibly be wrong with watching a blurry movie? err.. bluray that is..

Re:First post? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14035462)

I believe they intend to market it as a BR-DVD.

Sorry - couldn't resist, and slightly OT (1)

GuyverDH (232921) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035633)

Especially if the confuse Blu-Ray with Ray-Ban and decide that the Blu-Rays are bad for their eyesight

Crack that firmware! (2, Interesting)

Dachannien (617929) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035374)

Given Sony's track record, [slashdot.org] I wonder if we'll find, for example, LAME binaries in the firmware of their Blu-Ray drives.

One irony, though, is that the DMCA would prevent software authors from accessing the firmware to make the determination as to whether their own copyrights were being violated.

Re:Crack that firmware! (2, Interesting)

interiot (50685) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035493)

Or, even more likely, Vista's NGSCB [wikipedia.org] will allow Sony to hide their code inside the secure computing base, where normal users won't be able to access it. And authors will absolutely have to violate the DMCA to look inside it.

It's kind of ironic that MS is wagging their finger at Sony now, because when Vista comes out, Microsoft is going to build that feature in standard (eg. in order to view a certain piece of enthralling media, you have to let some super-secret code run on your computer, with the OS doing everything it can to hide what it's doing from you).

Re:Crack that firmware! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14035644)

All you'll find on the discs is lame media and lame software.

History Repeats itself...? (3, Insightful)

vishmaster (684012) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035376)

All this has happened before and will happen again.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHS#VHS_vs._Betamax [wikipedia.org]

Re:History Repeats itself...? DATs right (1)

denis-The-menace (471988) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035533)

To me it sounds more like what happend to DAT: Digital Audio Tape

Before it was to be used for backups, it was supposed to come out also as the digital replacement for cassette tapes. The copy protection took so long to be agreed upon that when it came out, so did CDs and CDs were better to boot.

I think that by the time this format war is over, everybody else will be using the internet to get movies. Physical formats won't matter except for data backup.

Blu-Ray will be Infected with DRM (5, Funny)

topical_surfactant (906185) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035381)

And thus, it will never be popular, no matter how much data you can fit on the disc.

You can't polish a turd, no matter how big and blue it is.

Re:Blu-Ray will be Infected with DRM (1)

goldspider (445116) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035425)

What makes you think HD-DVD will be any different?

Re:Blu-Ray will be Infected with DRM (1)

topical_surfactant (906185) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035515)

It isn't a Sony "technology."

Re:Blu-Ray will be Infected with DRM (2, Informative)

jcupitt65 (68879) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035719)

HD-DVD is DRM-ed up to the eyeballs as well, there's no real difference. As is the original DVD, of course. HD-DVD may allow playing from hard disc, but it will still be very heavily DRM'd. Blu-ray might also allow this, it's not clear yet.

Re:Blu-Ray will be Infected with DRM (1)

SScorpio (595836) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035748)

Right.... just like HD-DVD players won't output a HD signal to a non-Encrypted HDMI-only output.

Re:Blu-Ray will be Infected with DRM (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14035518)

You can't polish a turd, no matter how big and blue it is.

Cut down on the blueberries!

oh well (2, Insightful)

Janek Kozicki (722688) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035383)

it's the porn industry that will decide anyway. not m$ or *cough* sony.

I'll take the smaller... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14035393)

I'll take the standard with less capacity as it'll be easier to download, store and mount in D-Tools.

gov't interference (1)

Douglas Simmons (628988) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035451)

What I don't want is any nudging toward a technology by the government. It's bad enough that we all sort of settle on one technlogy or format for years, and since eventually everyone has that capability, switching to something dramatically superior very rarely happens. On the other hand, the existing technlogy in this instance is good enough at least for existing applications (who needs 10.1 channels of sound?) so there is a small enough motive in the masses to pay up for what may prove to be improvements beyond the price of diminishing returns, in which case a little nudging from the government would from where I'm sitting be a good thing. I guess part of my problem is that I apparently don't have a solid opinion on government interference in markets. Perhaps said interference could be identified as a product of the free market and therefore avoiding it is anti-Adam Smith somehow. Jesus this post wasn't even funny. Starting out I thought I could make it smell insightful. On my B-game today.

Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD Not OVer Yet ? (3, Insightful)

hal2814 (725639) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035456)

More like Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD Hasn't Started Yet. I have yet to see a single Blu-Ray or HD-DVD player for sale. How can a format war be over before it starts?

Capacity, not DRM (1)

msbsod (574856) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035467)

For me what matters is disk capacity. The more the better. I do not want all the DRM balast. What I need is an alternative to tapes for mass data storage. Harddisks are fine, but not when you have to deal with hundreds of Terabytes or more, because then just the heat from harddisks is literally killing everything. The folks in Hollywood and at Sony may think that their interests are the only things that matter. Quite frankly, they can put their stupid movies where no sun shines. The industry has promissed us large permanent media for so many years and all they could produce is HD-DVD and Blue Ray. A factor of 5 per layer capacity increase with currently no more than 2 layers as a result shows that the storage market gets screwed by bullies of the media industry. There are more important things in the world than movies.

Re:Capacity, not DRM (2, Insightful)

The GooMan (892098) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035589)

Am I the only person who absolutely does not care about high def DVDs? Regular DVDs have more than enough quality for me. It's not like I am going to marry and spend the rest of my life with the disc. I just want to watch a movie every know and then. I have ZERO desire or incentive to buy movies on this new medium. I don't need them for storage either. Maybe I am just dumb but I don't understand it.

The main reasons I switched from VHS to DVD were:
1) The ability to jump chapters
2) Never have to rewind
3) Easier to store

Better picture quality just came "free" with all the benefits, IMHO.

Durability too (3, Insightful)

mopslik (688435) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035651)

For me what matters is disk capacity. The more the better.

While this is usually the main desire for most people, I'd personally be just as interested in a slightly more durable material. I try to take good care of my DVDs, but invariably one will get a nick or a scratch on it, and then it's a hit-or-miss game of trying to repair it.

If you could store 100TB on a disc, only to have one scratch render half of it unreadable... that would suck.

The Hardware will Probably Support Both Like DVDR (2, Insightful)

Snake98 (911863) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035501)

The same thing will probably happen as it did with DVD-r and DVR+R, both format will stay around long enough that the hardware will start supporting both disc, and be backwards compatible. Unlike VHS and Betamax, the physical media is the same size. Someone will invent the laser that can do both such as cd-r and DVD-R. Like now no one cares if it's DVD-R and DVD+R

Lets... (0)

Stanistani (808333) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035505)

Update 8-track technology and make some fab tape cartridges for video playback... terabytes of spoolable striped data...

What's so great about random access, anyhow?

I knew these fancy optical storage formats were just a flash in the pan...

Two ways to settle this.... (1)

8127972 (73495) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035534)

1. A deathmatch between the two parties. The last one standing wins.
2. Give both formats to porn producers. Whichever one they choose wins.

Simple isn't it?

Makes no sense (1)

Bruha (412869) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035536)

If red blu ray can only hold 9GB (I'll assume for the whole disc) then there's not much difference in it's capacity compared to the current dvd format. Switching the color of the laser makes for higher density of data stored. So if that's the case why not stick with current dvd formats adjusted for using a blue laser. Or perhaps they think were all going to jump up and replace our entire DVD library's and equipment just for a better picture.

More draconian DRM (5, Interesting)

l33t-gu3lph1t3 (567059) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035544)

If Sony's new tech patent that allows discs to "lock in" to the first device they play on makes it into Bluray, you can bet your ass I'll be buying HD-DVD. While one could argue "but PS3 is going to be bluray!" I'll argue back that PS3 isn't looking all that hot these days. Personally, I'll be buying the format whose copy-protection is most flawed. I intend to keep my movies for longer than 5 years, and I don't think the solution to bit-rot is to buy the damn discs again in 10 years.

My aching head! (1)

frdmfghtr (603968) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035560)

Is anbody else's head spinning in this kludge of alphabet soup?

Let the n00b say this (3, Funny)

joelito_pr (931211) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035603)

I for one welcome our new DRMed smurf colored overlords :)

Take the Blue laser or the Red laser? (4, Informative)

digitaldc (879047) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035609)

You take the blue laser and the story ends. You wake in your bed and you believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red laser and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the data pits go.

The bottom line is which format holds more data, is cheaper and is consumer-friendly, IMHO.
From http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#1.5 [blu-ray.com] and http://www.hddvdprg.com/hddvd/hddvd_3.html [hddvdprg.com]

---How much data can you fit on a Blu-ray disc?
A single-layer disc can fit 23.3GB, 25GB or 27GB.
A dual-layer disc can fit 46.6GB, 50GB or 54GB.
HD-DVD can hold 15, 30, 32GB

---How much video can you record on a Blu-ray disc?
Over 2 hours of high-definition television (HDTV) on a 25GB disc. About 13 hours of standard-definition television (SDTV) on a 25GB disc.
HD-DVD can hold 4hrs HDTV on 15GB disc, 8hrs HDTV on 30GB disc

---How fast can you read/write data on a Blu-ray disc?
According to the Blu-ray Disc specification, 1x speed is defined as 36Mbps.
HD-DVD speed is 36.55Mbps

Its irrelevant (3, Insightful)

CDPatten (907182) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035612)

The next generation of home movie watching is not going to be disc based. It will be streamed through the internet or by your tv provider. The advantages are clear (if you want me to list more I will, just let me know), and the Content Makers prefer this method. For the end-user, its easier, faster, and they don't have to worry about movies getting scratched, lost, stolen, whatever.

These new discs only "use" at the end of the day will be for computer storage, but flash drives are about to hit 100gig, so even for that use the new generation discs will be irrelevant.

Just remember you heard it here first. These discs won't gain the type of saturation that DVD and VHS have had. These both will have market share more like beta. The true winners will be companies like Verizon and SBC who are brining fiber to everyone's door. Comcast also has a pretty sweet strategy for delivering content on demand.

I won't use anything that sony publishes.. (1)

cybrthng (22291) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035624)

End of story.

Enough about DRM, Rootkits and bad "netizenships". Sony has got to go if this how the "play ball"

HD-DVD all the way!

What is the point of either format?? (3, Interesting)

YoYoY (899475) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035646)

It seems to me that the touted benefits of either system (at least as far as films go) are outweighed by the drawbacks: using the carrot of high definition content to distract the consumer while both standards beat us all with the stick of DRM and inflated costs (you think that Blu-Ray or HD-DVD discs will be sold at the same price as DVDs????).

The only reason that I can see for upgrading (not that we will have the choice) would be if either standard better consumer value:

No more £60 box-sets (you'd never pay that for one disc - I reckon publishers will use the excuse of high definition etc to continue using multiple discs to cover TV series)

Use some of the spare capacity on the discs to back-up the data in other areas (hopefully making them more durable / resistant to scratches - no more skipping discs!)

I'm not against Blu-Ray or HD-DVD per se, as far as I'm concerned technology progression is a great thing, I just can't help thinking that either format will fail to benefit consumers as fully as it might. Also, will either standard be available (soon) in an R/W format?

So... they made blu-ray with data in standard DVD? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14035648)

How is putting more formatting stuff on it making it less expensive?

WB wants a third format? (1)

ajservo (708572) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035650)

Hi,

we here at WB figured it would be in our best interest to produce DVD materials for you, the consumer at poor quality. We sat down, read over the specs for what HD quality MPEG-2 should be, and decided to aim low. Like bottom of the barrel.

So, no fear from us, you'll get the same first gen crap from us that you did with DVD. We feel that it's important here at WB to "test" the waters with low quality media. Better us to make you, the paying consumer, the guinea pig than produce something correctly the first time. If you bite, we save a ton of money. We're talking easily a good dime per DVD produced. What will this mean at the register to you? Nothing! We wouldn't want to charge you more. No, we'd rather save that dime per in the factory and pass the crap along to you, then repackage it and "try" to justify the extra release. Double dip? More like Double Awesome! For you! Good job buying DVD's. You make us proud!

Now get back out there, you good consumer you, and go see WB's "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" on Friday. We've got sequels to make.

Red Blu-Ray? (3, Funny)

op12 (830015) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035715)

Sounds like something 3D is afoot.

What I want (1)

fmwap (686598) | more than 8 years ago | (#14035723)

What I'd like to see is a minature HD-DVD/BluRay/whatever medium that comes in a tiny case. Something that's maybe 1in X 1in or so, enough to hold audio (video?) but be protected from being scratched.

Now I know people bitch about how a case would be "too clunky" and "I can't use a spindel!" But I'd much rather have the media protected...I always thought it was stupid to have the sensitive part out in the air like that.

But given Sony's EULA [eff.org] , this will never happen.
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