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Inside Visual Studio 2005 Team System

ScuttleMonkey posted more than 7 years ago | from the all-kinds-of-i-in-team dept.

IT 156

An anonymous reader writes "ZDNet has posted a top 10 list of things you need to know about Visual Studio 2005 Team System. From the article: Everybody talks about collaborative development tools, and heaven knows you can't surf the major developers' for 10 minutes without getting hit by banners trumpeting the latest. We can't fault Microsoft for wanting a piece of that action; but we need more than just a collaborative environment."

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Yes but ... (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#14101899)

Yes but does it develop for Linux?
(first post!)

Please confrom (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#14101985)

No no no. First posts are Off Topic, not redundant. You new to mod points?

Re:Yes but ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#14102170)

Why do you like to develop for Linux? Do you want to die poor and lonely?

Re:Yes but ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#14102245)

Yes.

Why does Microsoft... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#14101902)

... keep creating their own languages? Wouldn't it be easier to have closed source standard code?

Oh, and first post!

Does it support Ruby on Rails (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#14101917)

... and linux; but seems rails is even more important than the java-clone that C# is.

New here? (5, Funny)

Gridpoet (634171) | more than 7 years ago | (#14101920)

We can't fault Microsoft for wanting a piece of that action

you must be new here...this is slashdot

we can fault Microsoft for anything...

Ubuntu Linux for the XBox 360 (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#14102722)

I'm fed up with my new XBox 360 crashing. I camped out at Best Buy for 3 days and spent $400 on this piece of junk. I didn't dare leave the line to shower or defacate for fear of losing my place. Can someone just post a torrent to Ubuntu Linux for the XBox 360? Thanks.

Re:New here? (1)

WED Fan (911325) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102943)


you must be new here...this is slashdot we can fault Microsoft for anything...




Ain't that the truth, brother, all too often. If anyone can be accused of knee jerk reactions, its us. Let's give it a try, I'll give you a few words, you try this experiment, what is your reaction:

1. Gates
2. Stallman
3. CEO
4. Sun
5. Microsoft
6. OSS

Ten to one, most SD'ers went into knee-jerk mode (one direction or the other) on each. Logic be damned.

You forgot... (1)

Da VinMan (7669) | more than 7 years ago | (#14103239)

..SCO.

Jerk. ;)

Re:You forgot... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#14103355)

And Google!

Linux (0, Offtopic)

vdub12 (874654) | more than 7 years ago | (#14101957)

And I am sure it will work in Linux to right.

Oh, I get it (4, Funny)

tcopeland (32225) | more than 7 years ago | (#14101960)

Team System's response to this problem is a Logical Datacenter Designer, which integrates clients, Web servers, SQL Servers and any other servers into constrained, schema-driven models that permit solution architectures to truly embrace the big picture with proper attention to networking and its impact on interface with data sources. This concept is especially welcome as Web services become increasingly central to integrated application systems.
Cool, OK, that clears it all up for me.

Re:Oh, I get it (4, Funny)

gcaseye6677 (694805) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102012)

I suppose it also helps you leverage synergy to facilitate best-of-breed 21st century paradigm-shift enterprise solutions.

part of the plan to grow over-arching applications (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#14102107)

http://www.sciencegeek.net/lingo.html [sciencegeek.net]

there are many more.

Re:Oh, I get it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#14103258)

Bingo!

Re:Oh, I get it (1)

RealBeanDip (26604) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102085)

Me too. It's 100% fully buzzword compliant.

Re:Oh, I get it (1)

ta ma de (851887) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102262)

A home-run win-win transaction. Thank you TQM ... oh, is TQM passé yet?

Re:Oh, I get it (1)

cosinezero (833532) | more than 7 years ago | (#14103130)

I dunno, my TQM team got beat up by a bunch of green belts.

A challenge (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Brave Guy (457657) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102294)

OK, here goes: does anyone here actually work on an application that uses so-called web services? I've heard so much hype about these things in the past few months that anyone would think desktop applications or client-server over a network were dead. Given the high-tech city I work in, it's therefore slightly surprising that I've never encountered a genuine (as-in, not a toy, not a prototype) web service in use, other than possibly via a couple of Big Name Companies that could use any architecture they wanted with the resources they've got. In other words, I think this:

This concept is especially welcome as Web services become increasingly central to integrated application systems.

actually wins the prize for "highest bull**** factor" in the quote, beating the other buzzwords by a considerable margin!

Re:A challenge (1)

orderb13 (792382) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102352)

That kind of depends on how you are defining "web services". I don't think the author is going for a strict definition, and is instead using the term to signify web apps, because I've never really seen any web services in real use either.

Re:A challenge (1)

cosinezero (833532) | more than 7 years ago | (#14103058)

Nope. Web Services does not mean Web App, and that is not what the context of this article details, either. Web services are used extensively in distributed applications and n-tier applications, and are also excellent for serving data to external customers who are using a variety of custom or proprietary clients.

Re:A challenge (1)

CaymanIslandCarpedie (868408) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102696)

We are not "yet" using web services to expose functionality of our own apps, but the app I'm currently working on does make use of three (will be more) web services to access functionality/data from other systems.

Re:A challenge (1)

CowboyBob500 (580695) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102706)

In the past year, two of my clients have required a SOAP enabled web-service for various reasons - and not to be buzzword compliant either. One is a charity, the other is a smallish tech company.

They're out there, it's not just a myth.

Bob

Re:A challenge (1)

object88 (568048) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102708)

does anyone here actually work on an application that uses so-called web services?

Yes, in fact! I rarely get to answer that kind of question on slashdot...

We use web services in our application to serve documents to several types of clients across the web (straight DHTML ASPX page, .Net application, and ActiveX control running in IE). Concievably, the customer could even use web services without our clientside code to roll their own, as it were. There are a few WTF moments, but it seems to work well enough for our purposes, and yes, we have real-live customers using it.

Re:A challenge (1)

cosinezero (833532) | more than 7 years ago | (#14103041)

I do, yes. A lot. And they are crucial and essential to serving data to customers and partners. There are definitely other options, but XML web services, especially through .net, are extremely easy to maintain, comparatively, and provide excellent abstraction layers for data access and business logic.

Re:Yup, Check This Out (1)

mpapet (761907) | more than 7 years ago | (#14103123)

My employer's product uses SOAP to connect all of the features to the authentication engine.

http://www.sci-s.com/id-management.htm [sci-s.com]

Re:A challenge (2, Informative)

rocjoe71 (545053) | more than 7 years ago | (#14103151)

They're harder to see because web services are really a solution aimed at the business-to-business market so even when they get used, its use is overlooked because businesses are likelier to trumpet what the web service grants them to do rather than the use of the web service itself.

For example, my favorite public-facing web service has got to be the USPS address correction web service [usps.com] , but if a company were to exploit this API, any press they create for it would probably read "Company ABC in partnership with USPS to increase mail delivery productivity".

Re:A challenge (1)

CrackHappy (625183) | more than 7 years ago | (#14103369)

Actually, we're a small company ($30m revenue), and I've put together a couple of different web services for our outside partners to use. I'm also going to be working on a much bigger web services implemenation for a large data synchronization with one of our marketing vendors. That one will be a little crazy, but it will all be driven by web services (i.e. SOAP).

I find them highly useful, and building functional web services with VS .NET 2003 is a snap for me, considering that I built previous ones by hand with ASP and javascript (side note: I HATE VBS).

Re:Oh, I get it (5, Insightful)

ergo98 (9391) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102547)

Cool, OK, that clears it all up for me.

The submission article is TERRIBLE in every way. Loaded with buzzwords and nonsensical meaningless drivel, it was made for the sole purpose of getting hits. I wish I could mod down a front page story.

View the presentation [microsoft.com] from the Launch 2005 event and you'll get much more useful information than the tripe submission.

As one aside (quoted from the linked article): "There are far, far too many nuts-and-bolts geniuses out there who can rewrite DaVinci's Codex in T-SQL, but who think two-dimensional client-server architecture is good enough for Internet apps. To build decent apps today, and Internet apps in particular, you need more than an idea, more than good tools, more than an application-level design; you need an application architecture, a high-level framework that carefully addresses your applications' intended functionality within the context of your hardware, network, and data-source infrastructure -- and, worse yet, too many IT managers who know the buzzwords but don't yet really understand this. "

I find this humorous, because many of the designs that have crashed and burned terribly are the over-designed, n-tier, architectural astronaut abortions that were pushed on an unsuspecting public. On flip side, many of the designs that have pervaded and succeeded at tremendous levels of scale could best be described as "some scripts that hit a database". Slashdot, for instance. Wikipedia...Digg...I could go on.

Re:Oh, I get it (1)

Strixy (753449) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102699)

Ah yes, but doesn't something like this make great face for investors who couldn't otherwise tie their own shoes with first throwing out a buzz word for tying ones own shoes. I forget, what is the buzz word for someone who learned to tie thier own shoes?

MBA??

Re:Oh, I get it (1)

cosinezero (833532) | more than 7 years ago | (#14103086)

" On flip side, many of the designs that have pervaded and succeeded at tremendous levels of scale could best be described as "some scripts that hit a database". Slashdot, for instance. Wikipedia..." -->Both examples fail here, since the lack of maintainability in script-based applications (ie, not tiered, or linear, or not terribly OOP) has meant that rolling out features for -either- has been ridiculously slow. How long did it take /. to support CSS? Almost all major websites that have "scaled well" have refactored their codebase into tiered applications after awhile. Proper tiering of applications is considerably more scalable than a script, the modularity allows for much more flexible and adaptive caching per request, per application, and per user session...

Re:Oh, I get it (3, Insightful)

ergo98 (9391) | more than 7 years ago | (#14103215)

Proper tiering of applications is considerably more scalable than a script, the modularity allows for much more flexible and adaptive caching per request, per application, and per user session...

Thanks for the lesson, professor. Ignoring the nonsensical caching comment, the point was indeed that applications start simple (scripts hitting a database), and organically scale out from there. The vast majority of real-world success stories evolved this way. They didn't start with a couple of managers and an architect sitting around a graph diagramming what they read in N-tier Weekly.

If someone said "Gee, I'm going to start a site called /.. Let's get started on the data layer objects....", they still wouldn't be done. Sadly, that is how most applications are developed.

Re:Oh, I get it (3, Interesting)

ergo98 (9391) | more than 7 years ago | (#14103248)

Oh, and one more comment:

How long did it take /. to support CSS?

A better question, from a pragmatic, real-world perspective, would be "What did supporting CSS get them?". For the vast majority of readers, it isn't different from the classic table model at all (in fact it's a bit quirkier). I like CSS layout, but using Slashdot and CSS as an example is inane - they didn't support CSS because there was no practical reason to, other than a lot of Standards Astronauts beating on their door about their lack of CSS goodness.

Team System is overkill bloat (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#14101976)

As Microsoft had already completely nailed collaborative development with Visual SourceSafe.

Re:Team System is overkill bloat (2, Informative)

xornor (165117) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102284)

Our team uses Subversion in conjunction with http://www.edgewall.com/trac/ [edgewall.com] and I think it works great! It can be a little tricky to get setup the first time (at least on a mac) but it's well worth it.

Re:Team System is overkill bloat (1)

Keruo (771880) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102386)

Subversion is great, until it corrupts your repository so, that it cannot be recovered with the tools provided.
Then you're glad you made daily backups of the repository, revert and continue as usual.

Re:Team System is overkill bloat (1)

yerfatma (666741) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102518)

Are you using a Berkley back-end or FSFS? Switching to FSFS made a big difference for us (I'd say "no more corruptions", but that would be inviting a disaster). The only remaining problem is that VisualStudio hates the .svn folders and the alternate version of the Tortoise Windows client isn't a good enough solution.

Re:Team System is overkill bloat (1)

Keruo (771880) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102904)

The original that kept corrupting was on Berkley back-end.
After the last failure, I restored the Berkley system, took complete dump, upgraded to latest version of svn, and loaded the dump to FSFS back-end.
Haven't had any problems with the latest version yet, and hopefully won't have either.

At least one thing is missing... (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#14102008)

What about the plans for Microsoft Visual Studio 2007?! That one just has to be listed!

Re:At least one thing is missing... (1)

segedunum (883035) | more than 7 years ago | (#14103028)

Everyone wants to know about that one, because it's the bugix for Visual Studio 2005!

Glitch in the matrix (0, Troll)

dantheman82 (765429) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102075)

Somehow this article slipped through the /. MS filter and is not sufficient anti-MS! Quick, call Neo! Fortunately, having a free MSDN subscription that ended at the end of October got me just under the wire for the release of Team System Developer's Edition. Nevermind that I don't have the extra 3 GB to play around with right now...

it's still a tool (5, Funny)

snitmo (901312) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102113)

From TFA,

To build decent apps today, and Internet apps in particular, you need more than an idea, more than good tools

OK I need more than a tool.

Team System is addressing this shortfall in its Team Edition for Software Architects with a tool called Application Designer, a graphical workhorse for solution architecture.

So you give me a tool.

Huh?

Re:it's still a tool (1)

zlogic (892404) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102893)

They give you a team which depends on the tool.

Failed Miserably on Test-Driven Development (4, Insightful)

under_score (65824) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102128)

Check out Microsoft Takes it on the Chin Over Test-Driven Development [codebetter.com] . For comparison, check out Wikipedia on Test-Driven Development [wikipedia.org] . This is particularly ironic given the recent Slashdot article about Microsoft adopting Scrum [slashdot.org] , one of the agile methodologies which, along with Extreme Programming [extremeprogramming.org] , is instrumental in promoting Test-Driven Development as a core software engineering practice. I've also got a very brief article on my blog about the Qualities of an Ideal Test [agileadvice.com] .

Yeah, and splits architects from testers (1)

steve_l (109732) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102467)

So there now three editions: Architect, that makes code from powerpoint-like sketches, Developer that has the PPT-tool without the code generation, and Tester. Which means that testers arent allowed to design things, architects cant test and developers get to do a bit of neither, but not very well.

What kind of organisation does this represent? I guess it reflect's microsoft world view. But it doesnt match that of OSS applications.

Re:Yeah, and splits architects from testers (3, Funny)

Otter (3800) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102610)

What kind of organisation does this represent? I guess it reflect's microsoft world view. But it doesnt match that of OSS applications.

Yup, in that scheme Developer gets gcc, CVS and eleven text editors, while Architect and Tester are eliminated in favor of Noisy Fanboy, who just gets a web browser.

Re:Yeah, and splits architects from testers (1)

CrackHappy (625183) | more than 7 years ago | (#14103395)

You totally made me laugh out loud... someone please mod this one up...

Re:Failed Miserably on Test-Driven Development (1)

cthrall (19889) | more than 7 years ago | (#14103136)

Couldn't a .NET developer use NUnit [nunit.org] and TestDriven [testdriven.net] to accomplish many of the test-driven development tasks?

Bulky? Loaded? (3, Insightful)

ashtophoenix (929197) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102133)

So this new collaborative development environment, isn't it going to be as bulky, loaded and lacking in a basic concept as all other MS products? Take for example Visio. Some of the errors it gives me simply don't make any sense and get fixed by restarting it. Or MS Word, that hasn't been able to figure out yet, how to do numbering. Or maybe its way too advanced for us backward users, so it takes control and numbers my document on its own! I think Eclipse is a very well thought over IDE and the I would be happy with being provided something extremely lightweight for starts for which people would develop plugins that I could download install on a need-basis.

Re:Bulky? Loaded? (1)

CastrTroy (595695) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102220)

This is why I think firefox is a good browser. It mostly contains the minimum, and doesn't try to include everything under the sun. If you want extra features, you can download and install extensions which provide the functionality you want. The same thing work work very well in the IDE or Word Processor system, which 90% of the features go unused by most of the users. The program would be much easier to master if it only contained the features you need.

Re:Bulky? Loaded? (1)

TemporalBeing (803363) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102953)

I would be happy with being provided something extremely lightweight for starts for which people would develop plugins that I could download install on a need-basis.

So you would be happy with emacs? Me, I'm a Vi person.

Re:Bulky? Loaded? (1)

ashtophoenix (929197) | more than 7 years ago | (#14103366)

I use xemacs. Works well for me although I have some peeves. Never used vi very much. On windows I like Textpad which doesn't do a lot but whatever it does, it does pretty well.

Re:Bulky? Loaded? (2, Funny)

Blakey Rat (99501) | more than 7 years ago | (#14103297)

Or MS Word, that hasn't been able to figure out yet, how to do numbering.

Looks like your grammar checker is broken also.

"Inside Microsoft Visual Studio 2005 Team System" (0, Offtopic)

Timothy1965 (868606) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102146)

Inside? I'd like to remain firmly outside visual studio. Give me emacs and cvs any day.

Re:"Inside Microsoft Visual Studio 2005 Team Syste (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#14102502)

You are so hardcore! Thank you for adding that to the discussion!

unification theories disproved (3, Interesting)

micromuncher (171881) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102159)

Microsoft had an old saying... I have it on a mug honest... "One company does it all." Its true in everything Microsoft does, whether it be desktop os and app integration, the convergence around entertainment systems, or development tools.

I think the problem is that no unification theory holds. I software development, from a team perspective, from design to implementation to testing... regardless of what model you follow... the development team is most effective when they are not constrained by a tool.

In my current work environment, the company tried to standardize on one web server, one IDE, one OR mapper... it failed miserably. The reality is we have 4 web servers, a multitude of IDEs, and tons of different technologies that are fitting specific needs. Even on the Microsoft platform.

I do not doubt that the team tools are cool for collaboration. But they are going to be pushed into organizations that already have team tools, or ways of doing stuff.

Right tools for the right job? Most Rose managed projects I know fail. Who uses all the lifecycle stuff in JBuilder 2005? Is anyone tired of development environments that take gigs?

One Company (3, Insightful)

Prince Vegeta SSJ4 (718736) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102667)

One company that does it all, One company to find them, One company to bring them all and in the DRM bind them.

Superfluous! (4, Insightful)

ObsessiveMathsFreak (773371) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102185)

It's all superfluous it tell you! The best collaborative development tool is the low lying cubical partition! All else pales to it's abilites to facilitate a tight dev team. Oh and emails.

All this rubbish cruft in Visual studio these days. It's from the people that broght you Visual SourceSafe-Studio integration. Windows only, MS centric, homogenous coding standards, catering to the lowest common denominator of programmer in an effort to make coding more quantifyable for management. Basically, it's all just tools for making windows developers even more lazy than they already are, and to make project managers think they're more in control of their projects because of all the shiny graphs, network tools and printed reports.

Expect coding standards to drop in line with their usage.

Re:Superfluous! (1)

xornor (165117) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102259)

I'm sure low lying cubical partitions are great when you aren't also working around a couple of non-programmers who tend to sit around, bullshit, yick-yack all day long, which can be really distracting (at least for me).

Scary Reading! (4, Informative)

Darius Jedburgh (920018) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102187)

Here I am, developing software for a living. I know C++ (and all the latest C++ techniques, or so I thought), how to use g++ (and CL) and how to write a Makefile. Collaboration is easy: I share a filesystem and perforce repository with my colleagues. And I talk to them, sometimes using a whiteboard.

But I looked at that web page: Codex, T-SQL, inscrutable jokes about woodpeckers, meta-models, Da Vinci, Biztalk Server 2004, Visio and text whose individual words I understand and yet whose sentences I can't grasp. I must be some kind of dinosaur ('dragon' if you live in Kansas) from an age gone by. Uh...uh...uh...>panic!...I've no clue what they're talking about. Does that mean I'm not collaborating properly? I didn't even realize. This is so awful. What can I do? Obviously just talking to people isn't enough.

Re:Scary Reading! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#14102311)

I'm in a similar boat. I'm an aging COBOL programmer who did fine handing my stack of punch-cards to fellow programmers as a collaboration tool. We re-use the same rubber-band as a "control mechanism" for our source code to keep the decks in place.

But I looked at that web page: Codex, T-SQL, inscrutable jokes about woodpeckers, meta-models, Da Vinci, Biztalk Server 2004, Visio and text whose individual words I understand and yet whose sentences I can't grasp.

Just because you can't understand the sentences doesn't mean they aren't useful tools.

Unfortunately, I do understand the senences - and yeah, your guess is right, they're really no better than my rubber-band.

If Microsoft did want to improve they should look to buynig companies like BitKeeper that actually do understand developer's needs - while at the same time having the same corporate culture as Microsoft.

Re:Scary Reading! (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Brave Guy (457657) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102364)

Ah, I understand. My friend, I was once like you. Then I discovered that it's not talking to others that matters. It's what you say that counts! Fortunately, the web is a wonderful thing, and people like these [bullshitbingo.net] have kindly provided resources to help you navigate this troublesome area more successfully. Good luck to you.

Re:Scary Reading! (1)

Darius Jedburgh (920018) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102595)

That link is, like, so eighties. Get with the program!

Re:Scary Reading! (1)

smitty_one_each (243267) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102400)

Obviously just talking to people isn't enough.
Sure it is, if you live in Banglore and can whip up a mean curry.

Problem with the "Sophisticated Tools" paradigm (3, Insightful)

sbenj (843008) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102225)

Read through the article, sounds like a nice tool. I agree with the author's assertion about the lack of architecture in most development efforts.

That being said...

I've seen a fair number of high-power tools offerred that do everything from soup to nuts, UML, Code generation, integrated testing, etc, etc, etc. It's been my sense that to fully leverage these tools you kind of have to buy in all the way, you can use their architect tools, but you need to put a fair amount of effort into learning the tool, and then you're not developing in C# or whatever, but in the tool. You're then also locked into the constraints imposed by the tool.

Every sophisticated tool I mess with these days seems like it has this issue, and I guess it's structural- you have a simple core surrounded by proprietary extensions that in theory offer a lot of power and in practice require a huge buy in of time to leverage the extensions. For example, most java application servers have all kinds of built-in goodies (e.g. Jboss) but whenever I've worked with them I've seen almost no use of the proprietary stuff. Same for web frameworks, most projects I've seen don't leverage the frameworks nearly as well as they could. This indicates to me that the learning curve is too high and that in practice it's not realistic to expect that people can master and fully utilize proprietary tools in addition to languages, patterns, and other necassary knowledge.

To be fair, I don't work in the Microsoft universe, and it may be a bit more realistic to expect tool buy-in in a world where there's one major tool vendor.

The problem is... (2, Informative)

Anonymous Brave Guy (457657) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102232)

...as long as the underlying system for a single guy at his desk isn't up to scratch, it doesn't really matter how good the collaboration aspects and high-level funkiness are.

We've been working with VC++2005 since the early betas, and it's been very hit and miss. On some systems it runs fine, but on others ("possibly those without hyperthreading processors" is the closest we've got to a pattern so far) it can go into a trance for literally minutes while it faffs around updating all that clever Intellisense it does on-the-fly these days.

Add to that a debugger that really does run code orders of magnitude slower than a properly compiled version when you step through it, and you've got a serious problem with the two main tools in VC++. Worse, these are things that were fine back in VC++ 6, and rapidly went downhill when MS started relying on .Net and a multi-language framework for the dev tools a few years ago, which isn't exactly a great recommendation for all this new technology MS want us to use.

In other words, the TS stuff is all very well, but until the fundamental problems with the single-user everyday stuff are fixed, it's rather academic at this point. Several of my colleagues never "upgraded" from VC++6 to any of the earlier .Net versions because the basic functionality wasn't up to the job, and the same is in danger of happening this time, too.

Re:The problem is... (1)

orderb13 (792382) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102424)

I remember having to go from VB 6, with the ability to pause durning debug, write some code, or change some code, and then go again FROM THE SAME PLACE! No restart needed. It was great. Then .Net hit and now you have to restart the damn thing any time you make a change. Blow.

Re:The problem is... (1)

wbradney (922339) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102894)

In C# (I don't do VB anymore - thank f*** for that) "edit-and-continue" is working fine for me. Only meta-data changes require a restart, and that was pretty much the case with VB6 too, if I remember correctly.

The Emperor has no clothes (1)

Merdalors (677723) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102671)

These tales from the trenches are why I read Slashdot.

I am also still using VS 6. I have code to ship, I don't have time to futz around with compilers that have more bugs than I do.

It was always said that Visual Studio C++ is bullet-proof because that's what MS uses to build their own products. If they're not using VS.NET to build the Windows operating system itself, then it will never be as solid.

Re:The Emperor has no clothes (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#14102914)

But you have plenty of time to post messages on slashdot...

Re:The Emperor has no clothes (1)

Dan_Bercell (826965) | more than 7 years ago | (#14103091)

If your not programming against .NET Framework then anything after VS 6 isnt really for you in the first place.

MS probably does alot of their platform development in EMACs like other low level programmers (at least they did for Windows Vista, as there was no IDE for the new framework.)

Re:The Emperor has no clothes (1)

Anonymous Brave Guy (457657) | more than 7 years ago | (#14103226)

If your not programming against .NET Framework then anything after VS 6 isnt really for you in the first place.

The thing is, the more recent versions of Visual C++ should be great for non-.Net programmers, too. The quality and standards compliance of the compiler itself, optimisation options, debugger enhancements, support for high-performance code via things like OpenMP and Profile Guided Optimisation -- all these things should be useful to non-Windows-specialists like me. It's just that the bugs and usability problems have outweighed the advantages for many people since since v.6. The question is whether undoing some of the damage -- notably the missing browse toolbar -- in the 2005 release will make up for it. With a few stability enhancements, hopefully it will.

Having said that, it's interesting to see how little of MS's stuff is actually being developed using .Net now. A few years ago, we were hearing about directives from on-high that everything should be managed code unless there was a specific exemption made, etc. Now, with .Net itself several years old and reaching its second full incarnation, we're still looking at little more than minor applications out of MS that use it. Notably, there seems little interest in moving much of either Office or Windows across, which is quite telling.

Re:The Emperor has no clothes (1)

Dan_Bercell (826965) | more than 7 years ago | (#14103406)

Sorry if I am wrong, but I dont think there is a more recent version of Visual C++ that isnt .NET, I could be wrong though. I even opned VS 2003, but no option for a non-.NET project.

I doesnt really make much sense to reprogram Windows or Office from scratch, as it would take forever, plus there would be a huge hit in performance.

.NET or even Java are not ment to be low level languages for writting performance sensative applications.

MS is actually doing research (cant find the link now) and writting an OS from scratch using Managed Code, but I doubt it will be of much use for a few years.

For some of MS current products using managed Code check out the GUI for Sql Server 2000 and VS 2005, plus alot of the Web stuff is using .NET such as Biztalk and SharePoint Portal.

In closing, you wont see many of the old products ported to .NET, but you will start to see more new products built in .NET (especially with VISTA coming out). As for Web Applications, it doesnt make much sense to keep any old Web product in ASP form, as ASP.NET is a huge improvment for both interop and maintenance.

PS: MS pissed off a lot of the VB developers because they are no longer extending the life of VB pass version 6. Possible this is the same for Visual C++?

Got a free beta (1)

zlogic (892404) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102327)

Two days ago I got a free copy of Visual Studio 2005 beta 2 (4 DVDs in one box), delivered by DHL directly to my door. Because Microsoft charges $20 for delivery (based on what other trials cost), and, say, $5 for CDs, they spend $25 on a guy who hates them as much as possible.
The funniest thing is that I wanted to switch to Windows back from Ubuntu (seriously!). But now that evil idea is gone...

GForge? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#14102353)

So basically they've recreated http://www.gforge.org/ [gforge.org] out of proprietary components.

JBuilder (3, Interesting)

ricochet81 (707864) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102361)

Borland's JBuilder 2006 has a pretty neat p2p feature, so you can pass a token around for editing, or watch the editing in follow mode. I found it very helpful and quick. I believe it uses the jabber protocol, and even works with google talk.

A Java mindset? (3, Interesting)

peterdaly (123554) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102363)

Maybe it's just because I'm a Java programmer, but it seems to me that many of the items in the top 10 list have been considered best practices for quite some time. Examples include 3-tier architecture, datasource management, and Integrated testing.

It's probably actually a good thing that MS is including it. That being said, "it's about time" went throught my mind more than once while reading the article.

-Pete

Channel 9 (3, Informative)

ChaserPnk (183094) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102416)

I've really been enjoying some of the videos being posted on Channel 9--part of MSDN. It's great to see what real MS engineers are working and thinking on. Just the other day, they posted a video covering Visual Studio TFS. [msdn.com]

I'm surprised at myself for liking these videos. I keep going to Chan.9 more than once a day. It's great to get a peek behind the scenes at MS development.

Say what you will about the Team System feature (3, Insightful)

TheSkepticalOptimist (898384) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102517)

But VS is still the best development tool around.

I don't know why some people are complaining about this software, its the best MS has come out with yet. Intellisense in any version takes a big hit on performance, the bottom line is, would you build a house with a hammer or a shoe. I can't understand why anybody would develop software for a living with an underpowered system! Complaints about VS underperforming can easily be resoled by simply upgrading to an Athlon64 or Opteron system.

I've noticed only a few minor usability issues, but these are things that have plagued every release of a VS product, little gaffs which may be annoying, but are infrequent and do not interrupt productivity.

Overall, the environment is much more streamlined, even menu items seemed to be intuitively placed within easy reach for quick access. They finally implemented region support within C++ files, so you can micro manage large classes by separating chunks of related code into sections that can be hidden, and finally outlining preserves its state when you save and reload the file.

When it comes to intellisense, NO OTHER development tool comes close to the speed that VS does. Sure, your CPU usage might spike to 100% for the first few minutes after openning up a project, but a list of class methods and members always pops up instantly when you type a . or -> and text completion is fast. When I was playing around with XCode, I though that it didn't have ANY intellisense like functionality until one day I just happen to notice it took about 10 - 20 seconds for XCODE to show a list of object methods or offer a suggestion for word completion.

The Team collaboration is the buzz word of the day for MS. It is their major focus to get people to upgrade to VS2005. I honestly can't see us using it. Its a small office and we are a pretty tight development team. At most, the Community menu item that appears allows you to bitch to MS about software bugs and feature requests.

But why anybody wouldn't upgrade to 2005 is beyond me. VS2002 was clearly a beta and VS2003 was its patch, but VS2005 is altogether a markedly improved and mature product, finally integrating tight ANSI and ISO C++ standards along with at least recognizing insecure standard library calls and dramatically improved STL support with better debugging support of STL objects. Within the first week, we found numerous minor bugs that could cause the odd random crash in our software simply by compiling the software with VS2005. We also came across multithreading issues due to better optimization of the compiled code allowing for faster program execution that caused race conditions or deadlocks. Something VS2002 or VS6 wasn't making us aware of.

In any regards, if you develop Windows software for a living, not using VS is a detrement. Sure there may be other decent tools if you develop cross platform apps, but using a 3rd party development suite to develop Windows tools only shows your not serious about Windows software development. We are already looking at XAML and Windows Presentation Layer development because we can get the latest beta tools directly from the horses mouth, other development systems are only guessing what XAML will actually become and making a half assed attempt at offering a retail package before Vista is released.

Finally, MS integrated embedded device development in the IDE that allows you to emulate the device virtually, complete with a skin to look like a phone or PDA screen. They have had these tools in some external install, but integration in the IDE is key to getting more and better software written for mobile platforms. I may even get a PocketPC to start learning how to develop for the mobile platform.

Say what you will about MS, Windows, an their other software, but they actually know how to write a decent development platform.

Re:Say what you will about the Team System feature (1)

Anonymous Brave Guy (457657) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102679)

Assuming you're referring to things like my post earlier in the discussion when you talk about underperforming Intellisense, please allow me to clarify. If your IDE locks up for several seconds on a 3+ GHz machine with 2+ GB of RAM and a fast hard drive, then your IDE is broken. I don't care how clever the Intellisense is, if it takes so long to use it that my productivity goes below that of a cheap text editor.

If the "little gaffs" include things like removing the browse toolbar they had in VC++ 6, then I think it's more than just a little annoying. In fact, the majority of developers where I work decided not to upgrade to any earlier .Net version because of that feature and a couple of similar annoyances. They didn't care what else had been improved; lack of serious browsing tools was a show-stopper for them. I put up with it, but I'm greatly relieved that the 2005 edition has some decent browsing tools again.

As for Intellisense being fast: any system that spikes my CPU to 100% for several minutes to generate glorified on-line help is broken. And it's been popping up the info after a . or -> just fine for several years without that delay, thanks.

Your comments about being a serious Windows developer seem to assume that any serious project must be MS-only. To those of us who routinely build on a dozen platforms, that position seems rather archaic. Why on earth would you limit yourself to a system that can't be ported without prohibitive amounts of effort, unless your application is the kind of thing that'll only ever run on typical desktop PCs for a year or two anyway? Most things aren't.

As for not using VS being detrimental if you develop for Windows, I'd have agreed with you five years ago when we were talking about VC++ 6. However, as I mentioned earlier, in an office full of informed developers with a pretty free choice about the tools they use, almost everyone opts for VS, but the vast majority were still on VC++ 6 until a couple of weeks ago, and most still are today. The jury is still out on whether they'll upgrade.

Re:Say what you will about the Team System feature (1)

Malc (1751) | more than 7 years ago | (#14103358)

I do most of my development work in VC6, mostly because I'm responsible for a product that must still be compiled with MSDev97. I use VS.Net 2003 for debugging and a couple of C# products I work on. VS.Net is a far better debugger to the point it's worth using even though VC6 is doing the building and development. I also have to debug scripts due to using embedded IE, as well as debugging through C++ on the client, the server and right in to the T-SQL in the database, and for this, VS.Net is the best answer I've found.

Re:Say what you will about the Team System feature (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#14103062)

"When it comes to intellisense, NO OTHER development tool comes close to the speed that VS does."

Obviously you don't know Visual Assist, which happens to be an Intellisense Add-In that even works with Visual Studio 5.0, and that does its job at the speed of light.

collabware conundrum (1)

heroine (1220) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102521)

If collabware is the next big thing, why are the collabware startups all run by lone CEOs instead of a collaboration?

I've been trying to test TFS' SCM capabilities (2, Interesting)

pestilence669 (823950) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102558)

First, the uninstaller is broken. Plan on reformatting before you play with this beast. Also, plan on 2GB+ of RAM. The 1GB minimum is a lie even for a single user. Also, if your source repository is larger than 4GB, you'll need SQL Server 2005. It's demanding on the clients also. Plan on generous RAM & CPU speed.

I can't migrate my company's Visual SourceSafe repository. The built-in analyze tools to repair corruption lock up before they do anything useful. VSS corrupts by nature. Since my repository is trashed and the repair tools are broken, I have no way of importing my source tree... into the less-mature and unreleased (still beta) Team Server.

Keep in mind, TFS's source code management is supposed to be better than VSS... not a replacement for Subversion. That's a big difference to keep note of. My most recent gripe: Rollbacks are sometimes impossible for merges. There is also no help documentation on this product, aside from marketing fluff. Even the docs are in beta.

If Team Foundation Server 1.0 is anything like Visual SourceSafe 1.0, keep your eyes open.

Cost? (2, Interesting)

PsychoKiller (20824) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102565)

How much does the new suite cost per developer?

Re:Cost? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#14103118)

At my college VS6 is given out free for personal use. They gave everyone in the class a licensing form that they expected everyone to fill in.

They got one blank form back.

Re:Cost? (1)

AaronBrethorst (860210) | more than 7 years ago | (#14103353)

Short answer: it depends. Our Group Product Manager, Prashant, has some comments on this on a weblog [blogspot.com] : The bottom line is that pricing is VERY much tied to your individual circumstances. We're much more transparent than other tools vendors, but at the end of the day, the volume in which you do or do not buy, the fact that you may or may not be an ISV, the fact that you may or may not be a SI/consultant/partner, or any number of other circumstances can substantially alter how much you pay for the SKUs. Only a very, very small number of people pay our full retail price for the high end product.

All i have to say about MSVC++ compiler is that... (0)

t35t0r (751958) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102659)

I had to use GCC to return actual errors in my code because the only thing MSVC++ compiler would tell me is Internal Compiler Error (ICE) over and over again. Seriously, M$ cannot get a compiler right, it cannot get a text file right (why use ^M\n instead of just \n? ..a source of many headaches), and yet they claim to innovate technology which has been available for 5+years on other systems/os's. People eat their crap up left and right and you just increase M$ end objective M$$$$$ for terrible software.

Re:All i have to say about MSVC++ compiler is that (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#14103040)

First off, take a pill!

Second, let me point out that [cr][lf] is the only true and correct way to end a line, assuming that there is a line to follow it.

[cr] should only return the carriage to the left side of the page and [lf] should only move the carriage down a line. Why do you think that both of those control codes exist?

L/Unix use of the [lf] to perform both a [cr] and a [lf] as well as Apple's thinking that [cr] should do both are both wrong! They are both using a short hand way of performing a true [cr][lf].

If Linux and Mac want a single code to perform both a [cr] and a [lf] then they should have invented a new control code to do so. Of course they would have both been different anyway...

This is one case where Microsoft is 100% right and Linux and Mac are 100% wrong.

To paraphase a graphic so many of us have seen... (1)

Lugae (88858) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102703)

Take that, feeble Visual Studio user!

Oh, Ned, you are a vi man!

I am curious (1)

deconvolution (715827) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102754)

The source control module in VS series has been pretty crap for ages. (Something called Visual Sourcesafe but I have never been involved.) As the major devlopment platform under windows, I wonder why they ignored the most important parts of VS. how developers of MS use VS for their team development?

Re:I am curious (3, Interesting)

Saige (53303) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102844)

The new source control system in Team System is much, much better than Visual SourceSafe. Not anywhere even close to that old system.

In fact, I believe that the source control in VSTS is actually based off of the internal source control system that's been in use in Microsoft in a while - similar with the bug/work item tracking portion of VSTS. These two tools already have had significant work and lifetime, just as internal tools so far. So having them as V1 is a little misleading.

The work item tracking system is the best I've used to date. Source control isn't Clearcase, but it's definitely not bad like SourceSafe, and being able to link changesets to bugs and builds and the like is very nice.

(Disclaimer: I am a MS employee and tester on the VSTS team. But I am not now speaking on behalf of MS, and in fact, never do speak on behalf of MS.)

I too am curious (2)

beuges (613130) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102972)

If you've never been involved in working with Visual Sourcesafe, how can you assert with great authority that it 'has been pretty crap for ages'? Were you just hoping for a karma-boost by making an MS-bashing post?

That does not make any sense. (1)

deconvolution (715827) | more than 7 years ago | (#14103394)

"how can you assert with great authority that it 'has been pretty crap for ages" ============== Your logic does not make sense. How can you assert with great authority that it "HIV is a bad disease"? You will try to get it? The actual story is: I got lots friends in differnet teams who have over 5-10 years experiences on Windows based devlopment and none of them are familiar with VSS. Many of them just manually copy each of their working copy version into a folder. And others are using CVS. This information is enough to me. "Were you just hoping for a karma-boost by making an MS-bashing post?" ============ It looks like you are pretty sensitive about karma stuff. I basically dont care how it works, sorry. Is that the one major reason for you posting comments?

CRT on a Glass table (1)

Symb (182813) | more than 7 years ago | (#14102847)

Look at the banner on the VS/TS site. One, those sexy fashion model nouveau boys are using a CRT. Two the CRT is on a glass table. Three team system is so good that they have to use pencil and paper.

Now that is some cutting edge software company.

Re:CRT on a Glass table (1)

PokerAndroid (928780) | more than 7 years ago | (#14103386)

Don't forget happy as in stepford wives.

Woodpecker jokes? (1)

KlomDark (6370) | more than 7 years ago | (#14103283)

What are these 'woodpecker jokes' the article talks about? Can't say I've heard of one and googled and found nothing but stuff about housing development and woodpecker habitat stuff.

Clue me please!
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