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Recruiting IT Students?

Cliff posted more than 8 years ago | from the a-correction-of-misconceptions dept.

Education 631

spacemonk asks: "I teach at a community college and our enrollment numbers are down in our IT programs. We have found that many have the perception that there are few IT jobs. We feel this is causing many students, who might be interested in IT, to enroll in other programs. There is obviously a lot of conflicting information regarding the impact of off-shoring, and so forth, but much of what we have found indicates that the IT job market is improving, and IT is still a career that can offer job opportunities to students. For example, we have had internship opportunities that we have not been able to send candidates to, simply because we don't have the students. Needless to say, this is very frustrating. How would you honestly describe the IT job market to students considering this major? What can be done to recruit more students into IT programs?"

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Time to let go (5, Insightful)

fembots (753724) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104081)

The reason why there were so many IT students 5-10 years ago is because IT jobs were paying higher-than-others wages during the dotcom boom. So as you can expect from average students, they (or their parents) would be more interested in getting an IT job, even if IT wasn't what they wanted as a career.

Now, IT skills have been commoditized, and companies are paying standard wages for IT jobs. As a result, students are moving away from this ordinary job and either looking for something more lucurative, or simply choosing something that they are interested in (like Arts, History etc).

Since companies' needs ( as in wages, not the actual work demand ) for IT have been downsized, shouldn't colleges and universities do the same?

Cassette factory had its time, and it may still be producing cassettes, but it also has to make room for CDs/DVDs.

Re:Time to let go (3, Informative)

bfizzle (836992) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104115)

The Wallstree Journal has an article titled "Google Ignites Silicon Valley Hiring Frenzy". I suspect we can expect this to spread beyond Silicon Valley

Re:Time to let go (5, Funny)

fembots (753724) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104187)

Depends if it's "Hiring Frenzy" or "PhD Hiring Frenzy".

Re:Time to let go (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14104293)

Hey, look at the bright side, IT may not offer higher-than-others wages anymore but it still has higher-than-others hours!

Re:Time to let go (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14104300)

Why recruit people who will be your competition?

Well, what kind of IT? (4, Insightful)

XorNand (517466) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104094)

How would you honestly describe the IT job market to students considering this major?
What part? IT's a *big* field. My experience with community college IT programs are that they are closer to resembling vocational training (a heavy emphasis both on hands-on stuff and earning certifications) than prepping students for a transfer to a 4-year university. A more academic CSE track, while still IT, is a world apart. They also both attract a different breed of techie.

A lot of people were pumped through technicial schools during the bubble. Many of those people were only chasing the supposed promise of big bucks in the IT field. Educational institutes make some pretty good money on their (and the tax payers') backs as well. I worked with enough of these people to become a bit bitter about the whole thing. If you're trying to drum up the same type of business from the same type of people, I can't say I wish you much luck. The world is always in need of throughly educated people who have a genuine interest in technology though.

Editors (-1, Offtopic)

dcam (615646) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104097)

Editors (and submitter), enrol has one l.

Re:Editors (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14104144)

umm, sorry (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14104154)

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=enroll [reference.com]

"Enroll" -> two -> most common spelling. One 'l' is also okay, but, not around where I sit.

Re:Editors (1)

Rick Zeman (15628) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104174)

Editors (and submitter), enrol has one l.

Not in US English:

Dictionary
enroll |en?r?l| ( Brit. enrol) verb ( -rolled , -rolling ) [ intrans. ] officially register as a member of an institution or a student on a course : he enrolled in drama school. [ trans. ] register (someone) as a member or student : the school enrolls approximately 1,000 students. [ trans. ] recruit (someone) to perform a service : a campaign to enroll more foster carers. [ trans. ] historical Law enter (a deed or other document) among the rolls of a court of justice. archaic write the name of (someone) on a list or register. DERIVATIVES enrollee |?enr??l?| noun ORIGIN late Middle English (formerly also as inroll): from Old French enroller, from en- 'in' + rolle 'a roll' (names being originally written on a roll of parchment).

Re:Editors (1)

saforrest (184929) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104179)

Are you maybe British, or from somewhere else in the Commonwealth? I believe Americans typically spell "enrolment" with two l's, and a Google search for each version supports this.

Re:Editors (1)

Krach42 (227798) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104321)

You know... on MacSlash someone posted a scathing comment in the body complaining about the usage: "Apple are..." instead of "Apple is..."

It turns out that this was an American unintentionally complaining about proper British grammar.

People generally have stopped complaining about grammatical errors in the submitted texts on MacSlash now, because there's a realization that spelling and grammar rules can vary slightly between American English and British/ International/ Commonwealth English.

Seriously, it's not worth harping to the Editors about simple grammatical errors, unless you're certain that it's neither valid American nor Commonwealth usage.

How would I describe the market? (5, Funny)

Angst Badger (8636) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104098)

If it was me, I'd tell prospective students that prospects are really bleak, like north of England bleak. That way, they'd pick another field, the shortage of new recruits would continue, and wages might start to go up again.

Re:How would I describe the market? (5, Insightful)

blair1q (305137) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104175)

If wages haven't gone up yet, then they're lying about how hard it is to recruit.

Mamas don't let your babies grow up to be outsourced.

Re:How would I describe the market? (1)

size1one (630807) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104238)

" If wages haven't gone up yet, then they're lying about how hard it is to recruit."

Not when wages are being kept down by companies off-shoring.

Re:How would I describe the market? (2, Interesting)

JPriest (547211) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104337)

It is true, this industry sucks. Sometimes you are lucky to string along 3 to 5 years in one company before they fold or get purchased. There is little job security even if you are really good at what you do. You will find yourself traveling city to city for work. That is great if you are single, but as soon as you have kids or *gasp* a girlfriend, going from company to company will get really old really fast. If you are going to invest the kind of time and money to come out of school with a 4 year engineering degree or a masters the grass is definitely greener on the other side.

How would I describe the market-Flat chested. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14104377)

Remember folks, ONLY THOSE WHO ARE DOING IT FOR THE LOVE SHOULD GO INTO IT!

Now you know why we want all you "Learn HTML for dummies, work for money, dot-busted" to leave. You're depressing the market, keeping us from doing it for "The Love of OSS".

Noooo kidding. (5, Interesting)

SlashChick (544252) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104102)

I own a web hosting company [simpli.biz] , and we've been going through major hiring woes lately. It's not that we can't find people to hire. Oh, there are plenty of people out there. It's just that we can't find qualified people.

It's unbelievable how little Linux system administration experience some candidates have. We're paying a low-to-mid-level salary, so I don't expect to hire a UNIX guru. But these people are failing even the most basic tests. One claimed "Senior UNIX systems administrator" on his resume, but when asked to SSH into a server from a Linux workstation, typed "telnet [server] 25".

Some of the questions we ask in an interview: "Why would you use SSH instead of telnet?" "What is port 25?" "How do you reset the root password on a server when you don't know the current root password?" These are really basic questions, and yet the majority of candidates have no clue how to answer them.

I have a feeling this is only going to get worse as fewer and fewer people enter the IT field. There seems to be a large gap between the entry level, where candidates know little or nothing (or they only know point-and-drool generic PC troubleshooting skills), and the upper end, which demands (but probably deserves) outrageous salaries for knowing how to set up routers and SANs. We're looking for the people fiddling around with Linux servers and setting them up in their spare time who want some on-the-job experience administering and maintaining Linux servers. However, even here in Silicon Valley, that's proven remarkably hard to find. We also keep having to increase our workers' salaries to find even moderately qualified people, which means our costs go up and we can't hire as many people as we need to.

My advice to college students: Go out there and get yourself some experience. There are plenty of jobs out there that you can get right out of college in IT. Sure, they may not pay 6 figures a year, but if you enjoy computers, they're fun jobs. As far as recruiting students into IT, it will probably take a few years before it becomes a popular field again, due to the fact that so many people entered it expecting high salaries several years back. My advice: Set realistic expectations of those entering IT (6 figures right out of college? No. A job right out of college? Probably), and convince those not in a CS/IT major to take elective computer classes in case they want to be in a computer-related field later.

Re:Noooo kidding. (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14104138)

as a windows guy with some bsd experience.

1. ssh is secured, no plain text (good for passwords)
2. to recover the root pw, reboot and go into single user mode.

i want six figures and moving expenses. i speak english and am a citizen.

Re:Noooo kidding. (0, Flamebait)

rovingeyes (575063) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104203)

to recover the root pw, reboot and go into single user mode.

WRONG. You cannot recover, you can only reset your password. You fail. Get some experience and then show up.

Re:Noooo kidding. (3, Funny)

Dr_LHA (30754) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104261)

I presume after booting into single user mode, he was going to crack the root password in /etc/shadow and recover it that way. A little unorthodox sure, but employers like people who think outside the box, right?

Re:Noooo kidding. (1)

MrAnnoyanceToYou (654053) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104297)

This is, honestly, the funniest thing I've read all day. After you offer to crack /etc/shadow, how many companies are going to offer you a job?

Re:Noooo kidding. (1)

hackstraw (262471) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104189)

We're paying a low-to-mid-level salary, so I don't expect to hire a UNIX guru. But these people are failing even the most basic tests. One claimed "Senior UNIX systems administrator" on his resume, but when asked to SSH into a server from a Linux workstation, typed "telnet [server] 25".

Maybe he just wants to send a quick mail before using ssh?

Some of the questions we ask in an interview: "Why would you use SSH instead of telnet?" "What is port 25?" "How do you reset the root password on a server when you don't know the current root password?" These are really basic questions, and yet the majority of candidates have no clue how to answer them.

I can't believe that in Silicon Valley that this is all that you have to pick from. Is it worthwhile for me to move out there? I like the weather, but the insane rat race and cost of living makes it difficult to consider. Also, how did these people get that far in the interview process if they don't know these basic questions?

I'm kinda bored with my job, and thinking of moving and getting a new one in a year or so after I finish the two projects I'm working on. Are sysadmins in that high in demand?

Re:Noooo kidding. (1)

creimer (824291) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104375)

Also, how did these people get that far in the interview process if they don't know these basic questions?

They lied on the resume (i.e., "Senior UNIX systems administrator"), they breeze through the Linux/Unix college course without memorizing and applying a damn thing, or some HR person set up the interview without going over the basic job description. Or, all three. A successful interview depends on honestly on both sides.

Are sysadmins in that high in demand?

Sure, if you can pass the interview.

Re:Noooo kidding. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14104195)

One claimed "Senior UNIX systems administrator"...

He could be at his current company. What does a title have to do with anything?

We also keep having to increase our workers' salaries to find even moderately qualified people, which means our costs go up and we can't hire as many people as we need to.

That's the cost of doing business. This is not an appropriate place to discuss the details of your budgets, but maybe your or your boss' expectations of how much/little money to spend on salaries is unreasonable.

My advice: Set realistic expectations of those entering IT...

Good advice. I would also add the "sweet spot". That is 2 to 5 years of experience. That's were you'll get the most jobs. Under 2 years of experience you don't know enough. Over 5 years of experience, most employers do not want to pay what you're worth or what they think you'll demand for a salary. I don't want to get into the "do you have 5 years of experience or 5 one year of experience" argument here.

Also, why not hire somone who has a CS or some other IT degree, whose really motivated to learn, and willing to work for the money you're willing to pay?

Re:Noooo kidding. (0)

Rick Zeman (15628) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104200)

Some of the questions we ask in an interview: "Why would you use SSH instead of telnet?" "What is port 25?" "How do you reset the root password on a server when you don't know the current root password?" These are really basic questions, and yet the majority of candidates have no clue how to answer them.

That's because the kind of questions they can answer is "How do you turn off Clippy?" and "How do you reinstall Windows after it's wiped out by a virus?" and other Windows-isms.

Re:Noooo kidding. (4, Insightful)

DRue (152413) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104201)

we can't find qualified people

Perhaps instead of trying to find qualified people for a low salary, you should try to find quality people that are intelligent and eager to learn, with minimal experience (they should be able to tell you about ssh and port 25). I have no sympathy for companies that complain about a lack of qualified people when they want the moon in skills but offer a smaller salary than a guy can make driving a fed-ex truck.

Re:Noooo kidding. (1)

SlashChick (544252) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104268)

Unfortunately, those who know SSH and port 25 are demanding salaries of at least $60K/year. I have managed to find 3 good employees so far who understand that my company will not be able to pay outrageous salaries until we are consistently profitable (next year), but the 4th is proving tricky.

Re:Noooo kidding. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14104302)

re demanding salaries of at least $60K/year. .... and will not be able to pay outrageous salaries until we are consistently profitable (next year,...

No wonder you're having a problem. For me to move to Silcon Valley, I would want a minimum of $200,000 or something a little less and the ability to work from home.

Training (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14104230)

Why not train a bright entry level person to be a Linux Admin? I don't understand this absolute refusal to train IT workers. If you're not willing to train somebody who has an IT background in a related field, how can you complain?!

Re:Training (1)

CohibaVancouver (864662) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104314)

Why not train a bright entry level person to be a Linux Admin?

Mod parent up! I agree 100% - I don't understand this "must have experience" business. If someone is clever and has tinkered with computers it can't be that hard to teach them SSH everything else. I had zero *nix experience when I came where I am now, and now I can get around. Heck the linux crowd are so eager to evangelize about how easy it is to use - Prove it by hiring someone and spend a few days showing them around.

Re:Training (2, Interesting)

SlashChick (544252) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104328)

I hate to break it to you, but if you want to be a Linux admin, you need to be able to answer entry-level questions like the ones I listed in my previous post. Yes, we are willing to train, but the people we hire need to show the motivation to at least get those basic skills themselves. Maintaining a Linux dedicated server or a box at home gets you 90% of the way there, but very few people actually do this.

I've met 18-year-olds who were geniuses and who knew way more than the above. We can and do hire them. The training they require is more along the lines of "Call when you're going to be late" and "How to deal with customers without sounding like an arrogant kid." That's stuff I'm happy to teach, and they enjoy getting real-world experience and having an office to work in.

But I'm not going to train someone to be a Linux admin when they didn't have the initiative to go out on their own and learn the first, basic set of skills required. It works both ways. I'm perfectly happy to train you on our specific systems and best practices, but only if you're motivated enough to learn how to use SSH, what the 'df' command does, and how to boot into single user mode. If you think you can just walk in with a basic set of PC skills and get a Linux system administrator job, forget it.

Recent History (2, Insightful)

xtermin8 (719661) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104350)

I think too many qualified people found out there's not very much job security, esp. after all the demands made on them for qualifications. If you're not able to train from within, then chances are you will drop these "qualified" people at the drop of a hat. Good advice for college students is to stay the hell out of this field, or at least aim for management as soon as you get a foot in. You're pretending recent history hasn't taken place, and some of us remember all to well what's happened, and aren't eager to relive it. 6 figures? How about just 6 fuckin' years!

Re:Noooo kidding. (5, Insightful)

kimanaw (795600) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104359)

My advice to college students: Go out there and get yourself some experience

OK, lemme see if I understand your predicament...you want to hire an entry level admin at subsistence wages, complain you can't find anyone with the qualifications you expect and, apparently, won't hire anyone with fewer qualifications and train them , and then have the gall to tell students to go out and get more experience ?

Am I the only one to see the irony here ?

Re:Noooo kidding. (1)

Requiem Aristos (152789) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104369)

Congratulations on your successful insertion of a help-wanted ad into a slashdot discussion.

Actually, I consider your post to be great news. It helps validate my suspicion that the pool of "skilled" IT labor is mostly illusory. (OK, so it's only good news were I looking for a job; otherwise it means a greater danger of encountering such "skilled" workers.) In any case, it still provides that warm fuzzy feeling of seeing most of the potential competition milling about in some deep ravine.

Well... (2, Interesting)

KingOfGod (884633) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104104)

Today is my first actual day of jobseeking. I've just created an online CV at a job portal, and I'm looking through the list of job offers.
The list does not leave much for an 18-year-old PHP developer with special interest in UNIX and overall network, web and server security. The list of job offers has more to offer to a person who can call himself a "Senior Software Engineer" who can develop in .net and knows all kinds of Business-IT jargon.
I'm a little bit frustrated, but there are a few... a very few companies who are just looking for a good 'ol UNIX systems administrator.

Re:Well... (3, Funny)

ObsessiveMathsFreak (773371) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104168)

I'm a little bit frustrated, but there are a few... a very few companies who are just looking for a good 'ol UNIX systems administrator.

This is kind of a no brainer, seeing as how there are very, very few companies that are actually using UNIX systems. Most use Windows. For SMEs I'd guess that close to 95% use Windows.

Ergo, they are not looking for a UNIX admin. They need a windows admin to run their ADS, exchange server, and whatever other rubbish they need. Outlook calendar expierience required. You'll also need to know how to set up wireless routers, but security training, or indeed giving a danm about security is not required.

This isn't very hard. A lot of SME windows admins are the company accountant.

Re:Well... (1)

KingOfGod (884633) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104217)

Could you then tell me, what the heck are these things:
SAP?
SME?
SEM?
etc... etc... etc...

I'd be more than happy to walk into a company, and become one of those average Windows administrators who point, click, drool, point, click, drool, etc. I already know how to configure your average 150 employees AD server, just by reading a book (And trying it for myself).
But I'd be damned if I didnt convert the whole thing into UNIX stuff within the end of the next year.

Re:Well... (1)

SquadBoy (167263) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104312)

If you don't know that stuff might I suggest that at 18 you aren't ready for work and maybe need to find something part time and continue your education?

For example. You say you are a Unix admin and would "convert the whole thing into UNIX stuff within the end of the next year." One simple question, and please take this as the friendly attempt to make a point it's meant to be. What flavour of Unix?

Re:Well... (1)

fbsderr0r (601444) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104336)

serial authentication protocol - one way authentication with no success response.
six mb ethernet - half duplex token ring with a 0.5 mb parity
secure ethernet multiplexer - like a DSLAM for ethernet, but uses DES for encryption.
I am A++ Certified, hire me!

Re:Well... (1)

ionrock (516345) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104211)

I know the feeling. Most jobs are posted by folks that just want the buzzwords. I have been reading about Java or .Net shops that put things like rails, python and css all on the same job description as though someone needs to know all of these things to do Java or C#. It is pretty ridiculus. I try to stick to jobs that want fast learners and who want people with real system design experience. I specifically look for mentions of some sort of development cycle (extreme programming, rup, scrum, etc.) and mention something about having a framework or specific product already. I have found there is no profitable web development company that is worth dealing with unless they have a good deal of utility code that they rely on. Good Luck!

Re:Well... (1)

DRue (152413) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104225)

Good luck trying to find a job throuh a portal at your age and experience level. If you want to get a good job, you're either going to have to go out and meet people. Join local user groups. I can almost guarantee that you're not going to have much luck otherwise. Welcome to the real world.

Alternatively, go to school. You'll be better off in the long run.

Since geeks have gone mainstream recently, ... (2, Funny)

Harry Balls (799916) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104106)

...as documented here http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/19/02 28214&tid=149&tid=129&tid=4 [slashdot.org] , exploit that trend to your advantage.
Suggested dress code: Clip-on tie, pocket protector, white shirt, lab coat, horn-rimmed glasses.

My suggestion for getting a job in IT (5, Insightful)

feardiagh (608834) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104108)

My suggestion for getting a job in IT is to have a secondary skillset. I work at an audio post production house doing IT work. I have the job because I also know audio. If you can't apply your IT skills to what the business is doing, then you are not as useful to the company.

There are definitely jobs to be had for people who can support the infrastructure of what it takes to do business in today's world. You just need to be able to apply what you know to what is being done.

Re:My suggestion for getting a job in IT (1)

Jayjay75 (468973) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104208)

This is very good advice, whether you're in a boom or a bust. You can even use experience gained in part-time or temporary work to your advantage this way.

Say you worked your way through college as a waiter or bartender. You know the restaurant business quite well. You're a natural for installing, supporting or selling point-of-sales systems, and would do well as an IT person for a wholesaler or jobber: you know that business in part, and you know its customers.

That's because there is no work (1)

Wolvie MkM (661535) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104116)

There aren't a terribly huge amount of IT jobs. I've been fortunate to find work over the past 5 years in a rather depressed city of Ottawa. I just shake my head when I speak to students who are taking courses in IT and IT related fields and people tell them there are lots of jobs out there.

A lot of the people I went to college with are phone jockeys or aren't even doing what they were prepping for. Granted we all graduated at the WORST possible time in high-tech (2000-01), I was again fortunate to already have a few years under my belt before I started college.

About the only way for you to stick out from the croud of people trying to get the jobs is to take a co-op placement. It's how I started my career and what I reccommend to people wanting to get in to the industry.

Naturally I bring up the beer keg and free drinks at my work as motivation but not all of us are as lucky ;)

Cheers,

What facet of IT are you talking about? (1)

h0olapet (875471) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104122)

What facet of IT are you talking about? Network Administrator? Systems Administrator? Help Desk? Software Developer? Conversations like these always suffer from a lack of clarification about what group of people are being discussed as all of the categories I listed above require more-or-less different skillsets.

Re:What facet of IT are you talking about? (1)

brakk (93385) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104282)

It's amazing how many people that don't know the difference between IT and programming.

Hands on invites (2, Interesting)

dada21 (163177) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104129)

I can't seem to hire 4-year college grads in any of my IT businesses -- they won't work for the base salary we offer. Most of my recent hires were fresh out of high school (doing a few CC courses) or older employees canned by cutbacks elsewhere.

I have 3 friends with college degrees in an IT field who took Geek Squad jobs after losing 6 figure jobs. I wouldn't hire them for even G.S.'s salary, I know they're lacking in business knowledge and skills.

It is far cheaper and more profitable to get a geek out of high school. I'm looking for a digital helper now, and I'll be looking to hire from people I meet in forums, not another kid with a useless piece of paper and 4 years of debt.

Want to get kids in? Scout at Best Buy and Circuit City this Christmas. Meet possible future students hands-on and talk about how they can work and attend a community college, a better way to further their futures.

Re:Hands on invites (1)

Rew190 (138940) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104257)

I can't seem to hire 4-year college grads in any of my IT businesses -- they won't work for the base salary we offer.

Something seems odd here. How much were you offering?

Time to downsize some CS departments (3, Funny)

hivemind_mvgc (823238) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104130)

Boy that's a good point.

Maybe it's time for some colleges to shitcan their CS/CIS programs. There's plenty of colleges with, shall we say, less-than-stellar programs, facilities and instructors. Maybe those schools should go back to what they're good at.

Like, say... philosophy.

Re:Time to downsize some CS departments (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14104245)

why? College teach theory/concept/idea and not fucking MSCE training manaul.

grow up!

Re:Time to downsize some CS departments (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14104327)

I'm in a Master's of Science in Information Systems Technology at George Washington University. It has nothing to do with IT or CS. I'm an MCSE and a CISSP, and the program's pretty easy. Unfortunately, I will graduate without ever having logged onto an Oracle or SQL server at school. There's no real computer lab -- just theoretical methods of building things: structured and object oriented.

I'd like to take a couple of computer science classes, but they won't count towards my degree, because I didn't get an undergraduate degree in computer science, and I haven't had the prerequisites of discrete structures and algorithms. (Also: GWU has the second-highest undergrad tuition in the country!)

I think a lot of folks don't understand the differences, in the real and academic world, between IS, IT and CS.

I'm also looking for a job now, and the only thing that employers are interested in is my experience with computer security and Microsoft Exchange. I haven't gotten a single callback for anything else -- like systems analysis, management information systems, decision support systems -- unless the recruiters are totally clueless.

Another recruiter, taking my resume from Monster, and submitting it to an online job listing at Checkpoint, (the firewall manufacturer), told me that I would owe them 20% of my salary if Checkpoint hires me. And this is the recruiter that Checkpoint chose.

Sad truth is... (3, Interesting)

DigitalSpyder (714806) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104132)

No other industry I am aware of requires constant certification like ours, offers the lowest salaries for our skillsets, yet has the highest turnover rates.

To be quite fair, I couldn't recommend the industry to someone unless they really loved the work.

Re:Sad truth is... (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14104281)

plenty of other industries, try being an auto technician (mechanic).

IT woes (1)

sameerdesai (654894) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104134)

This has always been a problem in US. You see something like this and it get blown in full proportions. You will see Lou Dobbs on CNN talking about off shoring everyday and "experts" talk about losing jobs. While it's true a lot of people lose their jobs to offshore market the overall thing I have seen is actual improvement. As for example the IT market in Midwest is growing tremendously. I have seen more IT jobs been put out there than others. The thing is people will just believe anyone who is shouting and not try to find out on their own what the situation is. Call it a bad PR.

Having said that I have seen enough bitching in slashdot itself showing the general mentality of IT geeks. No offence guys but this can be really attributed to what you hear everyday. There is never anyone who analyzes the overall picture which would show that they would need more people to manage here even if they offshore jobs to foreign countries inciting more jobs. Have you heard that lot of software companies in India and China actually open up branches here in US and hire people here to meet the needs of US companies? What does that tell you? Economics at its best. Just because we are going through a rough period, this is the situation.

I guess it is time to analyse the situation and make most of it rather than just bitching about it. My 2 cents.

The good ol' days... (5, Insightful)

Mr. No Skills (591753) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104136)

I can't, with any sense of responsibility to young people in the US, encourage them to study IT.

The jobs are going overseas, as investors are mandating it either for cost reasons or because they now have a stake in some offshore concern. The jobs are emotionally frustuating because management expects programming to work on time and on budget like other engineering disciplines, but in practice its still an academic exercise with little thought to design and expectations. And, increasingly the vendors have turned the jobs into a vocational trade and not the creative and intellectual exercise it used to be.

There are still good jobs out there, but you'll have to make them yourself and hope you hang in there long enough to run the company and outsource the work to someone else. Otherwise, your a network support guy or sitting at a help desk in some cubicle waiting for the phone to ring for a question from an idiot in Finance.

But I'm not bitter...

Re:The good ol' days... (1)

desertfool (21262) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104263)

I'm in IT because I fell into it in the early 90's after graduating with a useless degree. Believe me, not all IT is fun and lucrative. I'm a router jockey, and with my company announcing cuts every day, I'm afraid. My job can be done anywhere, and probably will be. I wouldn't tell my kid to go in to this field.

It was good while it lasted.

Re:The good ol' days... (1)

Chemical (49694) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104346)

What I can't believe is that a lot of help desk jobs list 4 year CS degrees as a requirement. It's a fucking help desk! A trained monkey could do that job. I know because I used to work help desk along with a lot of other trained monkeys. I find it unreasonable that companies are demanding that you waste four years of your life and rack up tens of thousands in debt just to be able to answer phones, talk to idiots, and reset their forgotten passwords. Not to mention a CS program would probably teach you nothing relavent to PC troubleshooting.

Maybe (2, Insightful)

JWW (79176) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104155)

I was going to be all snide about the lack of jobs and all, but how about this idea.

You could try and get the companies that have been hiring your grads to make a bit of a splash about it. Create literature to promote your school that contains testomonials from the companies that hire your grads. Have the companies come on campus to interview if you can and make it fairly high profile so that people notice. After that you'll have real proof that students from your program are getting hired and finding jobs.

Another path, not one you might like, but one nonetheless is to promote your school to foreign students. The local university in my town has quite a few foreign students and has traditionally had quite a few Indoneasian students. A lot of them come from word of mouth from other students. It another way to help your enrollment and from groups that are growing instead of shrinking.

speak Indian, work for a buck an hour, (0, Flamebait)

swschrad (312009) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104161)

and not be able to communicate with users or other developers, and you have a chance. that's all that american business seems to want in the operator/coder/bugfix categories. until business gets off its slide to the bottom in salaries, respect, and perks for employees, you are going to have a rotten yield both in enrollments and in placements at the associates' level.

the good news is, training "c" level corporate officers appears to be something that you can do in a semester, so you can crank out a lot of them. all the candidates have to be is bullheaded, obnoxious, steal from the safe on the way to and from the coffeepot, and have the ethics of a sick snake. and they don't appear to have to read history or corporate reports to make a living. so staff up for "c" level training.

Re:speak Indian, work for a buck an hour, (1)

jt2377 (933506) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104286)

hey...maybe American are overpaid!

The IT Job Problem (1)

nxaccount (931295) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104162)

I think the IT job situation all depends on your market. For example, I live in Wichita, Ks where there are currently very few available IT jobs. When I got laid off I did a survey and found that for every job listing in my area there where about 50-100 resumes per opening. In Kansas City, there are only 10-20 resumes per every 100 jobs. The jobs up there also seem to pay more. The bottom line is that there are IT jobs out there. You just have to be in the right location.

Don't promote wasted education... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14104163)

Don't. Just don't.

If you want to promote something, promote jobs that America still has a use for.

For the time being, we have a use for engineering.

Not so much in the sciences, except those that are directly related to medicine.

The government and people have a lot of use for lawyers of all kinds. Encourage your students to study something in which they can get reliably high grades (for GPA) and to study for the LSAT.

Service industry is growing; management and administration job prospects remain excellent. Medicine, from low-end workers to technicians to nurses and doctors, will continue to grow. With the boomers beginning a severe old-age decline, gerontology is a great field to be in.

If someone wants to do IT, that's great for them personally, but it isn't the best career choice. The job market may grow, but the old style code chef is now the fry-cook coder. The money isn't there, the jobs aren't there--why equip your students to fail? Encourage them to go where the jobs are.

Money is the best motivation (1)

Slashdoc Beta (925619) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104164)

Statistics still show IT workers earning significantly better wages. Using my own anecdotal evidence, from the class of 2005 in my college, IT folks are earning at least 50% to 100% more than other majors. But this is NYC so things might be out of whack.

good... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14104170)

The recruits are showing signs of intelligence by finding another profession.

Most US tech fields have lower enrollment (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14104173)

Most technical fields these days are seeing lower enrollment -- engineering, computer science, etc. The fact that the trend has come down to I.T. isn't really news -- it was bound to happen eventually.

Personally, I think part of the problem is that students now recognize that respect comes for jobs that have a lack of numbers. Who wants to work in a company where you're considered to be in a field where the people are "a dime a dozen"? A lot of managers in tech companies are taking this attitude towards technical problem solvers. As a result, those technical problem solvers don't get treated well, and thus they try to steer their kids away from the fields that they believe are getting a lack of respect.

And no, not every job is like that -- but it's enough of a problem that most of my friends in technical fields can never really be happy.

Say No to IT (2)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104184)

With the reality of outsourcing and the perception of IT as a cost that must be minimizws in all corporations (and taught as such in business shools) there is just the fact is that it will continue to be a bottom of barrel career choice.

There is no way I would try to recruit young people in to this field. Doing so would be a breach of trust.

Re:Say No to IT (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14104234)

Why recruit more students? Concentrate on making better students not more students. Universities love to get their throughputs up, because it makes them look good. But its not good for the industry or the students themselves.

sick of stereotypes and lack of career opportu... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14104205)

I was in computer science and now do industrial engineering at a master's level. IT is a restricting field. If you do IT, people see you as an IT guy for the rest of your life. Other field will let you move to other types of jobs more easily. As someome above mentionned, wages have become ridiculously poor compared to other industries. the type of work has also become boring and repetitive. Another point is the stereotype associated with a computer science guy. Try telling a girl you meet at a party you study computer science. She'll have quite a disappointed look on her face. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. This attitude is heartfelt outside of the other sex sphere. No matter how much people love IT, they'd also like to have a fun life and this is what to change with IT before enrollment at schools increase. dot.com was glamourous, lots of money, exciting technologies, it was like a big mess. Now it's just a kingdom for nerds that will fix your computer or make the software decisions that will cripple your day because the update failed and the old system needs to be restored from tapes...

Try changing the name (1)

mustafap (452510) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104214)

or at least, avoid the acronym "IT"

IT carries so much baggage these days. Phrases like 'data mining', user interface design, industrial design for example dont seem to have been hit (image wise) quite so bad.

I'm an embedded systems designer, and love the work.

Also, you might try and place someone like me - a professional with a passion for the work they do - in front of them during enrolment drives. I'm sure some 'real life' enthusiasm will rub off.

Waiting for those Baby Boomers to retire... (2, Interesting)

creimer (824291) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104216)

Most of my professional experience is in software quality assurance (SQA) without programming. I started going to the local community college on a part-time basis for the last five years to learn programming and picking up certifications along the way. It was challenge as low-enrollments meant that a lot of classes were cancelled and classes needed to graduate were often unavailable. Some people thought I was crazy to continue working in software testing and learning programming when the market was so bad for many years. Things will turn around when all those Baby Boomers start retiring as companies will still need technical people and India won't be supplying all of them.

I will be graduating next semester with an associate degree in computer programming. I currently have certifications in A+, Network+ and Windows 2000, and will have the Microsoft Certified System Administrator (MCSA) next year. I'm currently working on the IBM Help Desk for a large company, working 40-hours a week and making the same amount of money that I was making working 80-hours a week as a lead tester at a video game company. The future will only get better.

My 2c worth (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14104218)

This really is quite simple. Jr. Programmers aren't going to get more than minimum wage for the forseeable future due to offshoring. Short of doing federal work, 95% of everything else is offshored.

If your students want to be able to get a job in IT right out of a 2 or 4 year program they need to focus on network engineering (CCNA/CCNP/CCIE), DBA skills (Oracle, SQL), Security (CISSP, GSEC), or web development (CSS/DHTML/Cold Fusion/ASP/.Net). Platform wise they need to be fluent in both Wintel and Linux.

Everything else (desktop/printer hardware repair, MCSE, helpdesk) is now a minimum wage job until the person has at least 5-7 years of solid experience.

Also emphasize they need to be working on language skills (Russian, German, French, Chinese) if they have any intention of working with international (Fortune 1000) companies. They should learn at least one of the those languages really well, besides of course English (British or American version).

Finally, make sure these damn kids have basic logic and problem solving skills.

And when all else fails, don't forget, the world needs ditch diggers too!

Thanks :)

Chicken and egg experience problem (2, Informative)

ndogg (158021) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104223)

I know a lot of students that are stuck in a chicken and egg experience problem: all the jobs they're looking require X number of years of experience on the job. Well, they haven't really had a job in their particular field (usually they've just been working at a restaurant, the college itself in non-field related work, or a department store).

I would bet you almost anything that you'll have students flocking to you if you state that you have entry-level/new graduate positions open.

Easy Solution (2, Informative)

TiggertheMad (556308) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104233)

What can be done to recruit more students into IT programs?

Advertise in India...

perception (3, Insightful)

spejsklark (913641) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104236)

We have found that many have the perception that there are few IT jobs.

At least they seem to be very perceptive!

I don't know what to tell you, friend. (4, Interesting)

Anti-Trend (857000) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104242)

I am a 24-year-old IT/IS pro with 8 years of field experience under my belt, NT, UNIX, Linux, AIX and AS400 administration experience, built hundereds of workstations, worked with JPL, government, trained tech students and more. That being said, I cannot find a job to save my life right now. I'm actually thinking about falling back on my education in clinical counseling; there may not be many good tech jobs available, but there's always people with psycho-emotional problems. ;-)

A lot to do (1)

e-bart (883629) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104243)

When I look at our current IT landscape. The only thing I see is that there is still a *lot* to be done.

Another Issue: (1)

Knight Thrasher (766792) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104250)

I myself have considered abandoning the tech industry at times. Tech jobs are hard to come by in the midwest, this isn't Silicon valley. If anyone needs a qualified network engineer, by all means let me know, but for now I'll be hanging onto my mid-level tech support job because its all there is here. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a user to go tell to reboot. =(

low wages, long hours, avalanche of grief (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14104252)

Why work 16 hr days with only negative feed back, when was the last time you got a bonus because the network was working trouble free for a year?, for low salary? If I'm going to make Starbucks money I might as will get the normal hours, free coffee, and free wi-fi. And while I accept the "numbers" that IT jobs are increasing, that is only because the population is increasing as is the number of businesses; but I'd speculate that the ratio of IT jobs to other jobs is lower than it was 5 years ago. As for the guy who couldn't find people " you get what you pay for. " low wages == low skillset == low experience == low quality.

First Job (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14104256)

Its really hard and frustrating to get that first good job. After that its ok.

Any prospective IT student (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14104262)

needs to

(a) watch office space

(b) ask yourself whether you want to give up nights/weekends learning new software versions or working through maintenance windows (if in tech field).

(c) be treated like crap by your employer.

in summation, ditch IT and do a trade like carpentry/house building etc where the skills you learn will last a lifetime, vs the vapourware knowledge of tech that will be out of date in 2 mths and require you to relearn it all again.

Screw you (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14104266)

I have a 4 year BA degree in Digital Technology and I graduated 5 months ago and still can't get a job. The IT sector is shot or there is still a huge competition for the remaining jobs. I even have years of experience before school.

You have to pay them, people. (2, Interesting)

Animats (122034) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104271)

For example, we have had internship opportunities that we have not been able to send candidates to, simply because we don't have the students.

You're complaining that you can't get people to come pay you to take your classes so they can work for free for somebody else. Right.

Sorta (2, Insightful)

I-Tard (933505) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104276)

The IT field is very segmented. Companies complain they cannot find the workers they need and senior developers like myself cannot find companies that will employ them. I have over 15 years' experience in the IT field with companies large and small. I haven't found any good jobs in the past three years and that situation hasn't changed recently. What I have found are a lot of companies and their recruiters who are overly impressed with some new buzzword (AJAX!, Ruby on Rails!, blah blah blah) and can't understand why everyone hasn't yet embraced that technology and is ready to be hired by them. Long term I cannot recommend the IT field to any student. As a previous poster alluded to, if you use IT as a part of your appeal to a company that might work better. But, and here's the kicker, there will come a day when whatever wonderful skills the company hired you for in the first place will be replaced and you will be as well.

Sorry, but it *does* suck (2, Insightful)

Sheepdot (211478) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104280)

I don't know about the available jobs on the coasts, so I can't comment on them. But in the Midwest where I am at, the only available jobs are for 30-40K with excellent benefits. That's great if you want benefits, but some of just want paid. It gets really ridiculous when you consider that the cost of living of most Midwestern cities is rapidly catching up to the coasts.

There are occasional jobs in the upper ranges, but no one wants to hire. It's even more ridiculous in the security field in the Midwest, as no one wants to hire someone with dangerously technical knowledge here, especially if they are young. There's a level of maturity that you just can't prove in a resume, and the more technical expertise you have, the more of a hiring liability you appear as.

I have told my younger brother's and sister's friends looking at IT-related jobs to look at other majors first. Just because they like their iPods and Bittorrent does not make them technically skilled to compete. I think the real problem lately has been rewarding "management experience" over "technical experience" by some of the major Fortune 500s.

You can reward your managers all you want, but if you aren't hand-over-fist for your geeky tech-types, you're just providing less incentive for truly skilled people to work at your place of employment. And you'll end up getting management-heavy, which ultimately will end up costing you money.

Don't Lie to Them... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14104284)

Let the Feds do it for you - http://www.bls.gov/emp/emptab3.htm [bls.gov] .

Actually Id advise them to do the plumbing course. (4, Interesting)

MrBandersnatch (544818) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104298)

Having, since 1988, seen 2 major down swings in the IT job market which have lasted several years; retained myself AT LEAST 3 times in order to have current marketable skills; twice had to take jobs on a lower salary than I was on 5 years previosuly; and lost a job recently due to it being outsourced....there is abolutely no chance in hell Id advise anyone to enter IT as a profession. Academia...fine. Profession. No way. If I had known what I would go through working in IT as a young man Id have done something worthwhile, well paid and easy in comparison ( like becoming a GP ). Instead...well lets just say Im retraining again (and it isnt in IT).

Not worth the agrivation (1)

RogueWarrior65 (678876) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104316)

Would you want to have to put up with whiny, snivelling, incompetent users who refuse to read even the cover of a manual lest they be held responsible for knowing its contents for $40-50k per year or less?

Problems in IT... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14104326)

In my experience, I've found that the majority of jobs out there are looking for senior positions with 5 or 10 years experience. The handful of jobs that are entry level are a joke when it comes to pay ($15k - $25k/year; I make more than that at Circuit City).

The other problem I find is that job requirements are really obscure (like DBase or FORTRAN). There are few, if any, companies willing to put in the time and resources for on-the-job training when it comes to these oddball items. The first poster talked about Linux administration, or lack thereof. Unfortunately, this requires previous experience which is not taught in a CISE curriculum. Basic use of *nix is something that can be gained just by using them, but true administration has to be done on-the-job.

The other problem I've faced in college is the utter lack of any professor to actually teach. Most of the classes I took were being taught by grad students who barely understand the concepts themselves and have no practical teaching experience. If there were any professors teaching, most could barely speak English. The other professors in the department were all too busy with research grants to pay any attention to their classes.

People in the education sector keep saying how IT jobs are bouncing back, but the truth is that they aren't. More and more, companies are increasing their use of outsourcing. More and more, layoffs in corporate America are dwindling down the number of available positions. More and more, colleges and universities make use of unqualified people to educate.

Major choosing (5, Insightful)

Kirby (19886) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104329)

There are two reasons someone chooses a particular major most of the time:

1) They think they'll make a lot of money doing it.

2) They think they'd enjoy doing that the rest of their lives.

Seems like you're worried too much about group 1. Don't. Ignore them. You're better off if they major in business or Chemical Engineering or Sports Medicine or whatever else strikes their fancy. They're not really interested in the field. There are worse motivations, and many people are successful who are mostly looking for a payday, but that's not who you should focus your attention on.

For the second group, that are already interested, you need to convince them that they'll be able to make a living at it, and that this is more interesting to them than another field. I can't offer super specific advice, since I don't find IT interesting in the least (I'm a perl programmer) - but you probably want to give as much real world examples of what kinds of jobs people actually get in IT and problems they actually solve. The people who are drawn in, those are the ones you want to keep.

And really, above all else, treat the students with respect. This will be so strange and rare, you'll instantly be a step up on how most people seem to approach them.

Quality people in short supply in Utah (1)

inventgeek (838321) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104333)

I work for a growing Development firm. We have had open positions for over 6 months now. Its really hard to get the right people with the right skill set and a realistic pay rate. From QA people to Developers of all skill ranges. A lot of people we interview coming from contract work think that they are worth than there hourly / salary paid peers. Thus disqualifying the few qualified people we find. And we are paying 15% more than the standard going rates...

They See the Future Correctly (5, Insightful)

Kefaa (76147) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104341)

The students today are reading it correctly. While I wish it were otherwise, this is not a long term career anymore. If you hit a hot technology you can ride that for a good while but looking at the market in general few people I know will recommend IT as a career. IT has become the assembly line worker of the 1970s or the steel worker of the 1960s. While today, you can find fabricators in niche markets making a lot of money, the vast majority moved to other industries and professions.

I run an IT Consulting company and cannot recommend this to family or friends. I am not pessimistic about my company's ability to earn money and keep me comfortable, but in general it is an ugly market to enter.

Here is what the typical college graduate in IT will encounter.
  . You will start at fair wages and long hours. Under difficult deadlines and penny pinching companies you will be squeezed for everything you can produce.
  . You are considered an "expense" that must be controlled. More often than not you will get an "good boy" instead of a bonus.
  . You are as respected and appreciated as a union laborer.
  . There is a pervasive belief that you are interchangeable with any other developer at half the price.
  . Unlike other industries where age implies experience (and we can all argue whether it should), in IT age is taken as an indicator of being "behind".
  . If you do not work at a software company, you salary will top out around 35 and you will get slightly lower than COLA in subsequent years.
  . There is always someone willing to do your job for less than. They will be in two categories Offshore or Fresh out of University. It does not make sense logically, but bean counters do not use logic of this type.
  . Your experience is weighed against your age/salary and with few exceptions age/salary will do you in. I often (too often) hear people say for what they pay a 40 year developer they can get three out of college - and then they do.
  . Churn is high, making job security low - It is a myth contractors are fired first.

As I said, I make my living on this and while I hire and pay well, most of my competitors do not. They often win bids because they can low ball me. I often win second rounds because the first round was spent with nothing produced and we put a team on the ground that gets results. However, success does not matter these days, its all about price. I can guarantee a project for $700,000 and someone with next to zero experience bidding $675,000 will get it. Most often they bid $250,000 figuring once they get in it will be hard to get them out. (There is a reason recruiters for programming shops are called pimps)

Well, now that I vented most of that, I feel better. I am guessing this will end up flame-bait or troll (of which it is neither). It is a reflection of my frustration as I watch good developers move into other industries so they can have a family and pay a mortgage.

If you really want to help your students, stop teaching regular IT and focus on niche markets - embedded systems, AI, robotics. Things that are bleeding edge. Make the course horribly difficult so only the best and brightest make it through. It is better to choose another career in college than at 40. Add project management courses and "learning to learn" because anyone entering this as profession will need to stay on the bleeding edge or be unemployed. The difficult part for you will be replacing the instructors you have with those that can teach these topics.

Now I am guessing people will reply to this with - "Hey - I am doing fine" and that's good for them. I see the industry as a whole, not just the individual programmers and it does not look pretty for a career. For the top 20% sure - the rest...

What would I do to recruit students? (1)

kfg (145172) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104347)

I wouldn't. At all.

If they are seriously interested in the field I would welcome them with open arms, but then I don't view education as a commercial enterprise or students as financial resources, even though I teach.

I teach because I like teaching.

KFG

Just don't (1)

bill_kress (99356) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104355)

If you don't feel computers in your soul, if you don't NEED to be near computers as much as possible, you shouldn't be in this industry--If you don't feel a desire to tear through each new technology you come across, just don't bother.

The whole batch of people who came into it for the money just makes my job suck, and I am glad they are gone (Being replaced by consultants from India, but their time is limited as well).

Seriously, to me it's exactly like saying "How do great artists attract more apprentices?". They don't, those who have it in them come to the artists and fight for the position.

Really the best bet for our industry is to spend your time encouraging those who do want to enter--who can't help themselves--and strongly discouraging those who don't.

If you think this analogy sounds silly--you're part of the problem. Get out now and do us all a favor.

IT isnt hot anymore. (1)

miffo.swe (547642) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104357)

A couple of years back the hottest job you could have was it but not anymore. The pay has gone down and the work is pretty dull and booring in many places. Apply patches, watch the consultants do all the fun stuff, reinstall some broken app since its pretty impossible to find exactly what causes things to break in Windows and so on. Its really very repetitive work where you dont really learn anything in many places.

Luckily i work as a Linux admin and get to play with my precious linux all day long. For me the work is about doing my hobby at worktime. Hadnt it been for Linux i would never set my foot on an it department. The work as an admin can be very infuriating many times with PHP's making decisions so idiotic at the micro level you just want to slap them silly.

IT is just like any other job theese days.

IT Jobs (1)

wuice (71668) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104362)

There is still plenty of good jobs for people in IT.. Here's a hint: don't work for tech companies. I work IT for a local community clinic and I am loved. When I worked for a tech company, I was just another geek in the geek room typing some code-type gibberish.

Are you in India? (1, Insightful)

gelfling (6534) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104365)

Because I work for one of the largest IT service vendors in the world and we can't move jobs there fast enough. Already our largest single site is there and in the next 3 years the total company employment will be the largest of any of ours in the world. And we are a US based company.

Although in the longer run we see Indian employers themselves outsourcing to Vietnam, Bangladesh and Malaysia. Not so much China though.

They don't think that there is any money in it? (2, Interesting)

cyberbob2010 (312049) | more than 8 years ago | (#14104374)

I am 20 making more now than most of my friends will be making two years from now when they get out of college...oh...and I don't have the debt.

All I have my A+ cert and a lot of experience. If kids don't think that getting an associate or certificate program at a Community College can get them a job then they are dead wrong.

The great thing is that they don't have to stop after that. After getting a lesser degree in comp. sci or a certificate through a program they can continue their education (what I am doing now). My company will pay for 100% of my tuition and any other certifications that I want to get. If I get my net+, security+ and CCNA then in another two years of experience here I can go out and get an even better tech job etc...

If they don't believe you - send them to Robert Half's Technology division. I gave them my resume on a Mon. and had two job offers through them by Fri.
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