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What's New With IE, Firefox, Opera

ScuttleMonkey posted more than 8 years ago | from the battle-of-the-bloat dept.

Software 542

prostoalex writes "The Web browser market hasn't seen the competition heat up for a while, but things are getting quite exciting, PC World reports. The magazine looks into the latest features that are incorporated into Microsoft's Internet Explorer, Mozilla Foundation's Firefox and Opera Software's Opera. From the article: "We took Internet Explorer 7 Beta 1, Firefox 1.5 Release Candidate 1, and Opera 9 Preview 1 out for a spin. Both the Firefox beta and the Opera beta are available for download, although Opera isn't publicizing this early testing version; the browsers' final editions should be out around the time you read this. On the other hand, the IE 7 beta will not be available for downloading until early next year.""

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Regardless of which..... (5, Insightful)

xystren (522982) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135702)

it really doesn't matter to me, just as long as it's w3c compliant.

Re:Regardless of which..... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14135718)

HELLO!!!

Re:Regardless of which..... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14135724)

So it does matter ... you use Opera.

Re:Regardless of which..... (5, Informative)

Kelson (129150) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135784)

it really doesn't matter to me, just as long as it's w3c compliant.

Heh. Hah. HA HAHA HAHAHA!

*ahem*

Sorry about that.

"W3C Compliant" is much easier to define for a website than for a web browser. Why? A compliant website uses only features defined in the W3C specs, or only uses other features in ways that will gracefully degrade in compliant browsers (though some purists will object to the latter definition).

For a browser, does it mean something that implements every part of a W3C standard? Or one that implements part of a standard but makes sure not to contradict it anywhere? Is it OK if it implements nonstandard features like those used in AJAX? And which standards? HTML, CSS and JavaScript/ECMAScript are a good start, but what about SVG? XHTML? XForms?

The specs are complex enough that there still is no web browser that implements all of even the current versions of HTML/CSS/JavaScript. At best, you can measure relative compliance, in which case Firefox and company, Opera, and Safari are all well ahead of even IE7. But waiting for a "W3C Compliant" browser is going to take a while.

Re:Regardless of which..... (2, Interesting)

audi100quattro (869429) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135892)

amaya, a web browser which is ONLY w3c compliant, and made by w3c people will crash on 90% of the sites out there on the web, if not more. it crashes on msn.com...

Re:Regardless of which..... (5, Funny)

VagaStorm (691999) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135935)

You expected msn.com to be w3c compliant? *sight* I can almost remember when I was that young and naive.

Re:Regardless of which..... (4, Interesting)

Nik13 (837926) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135934)

Being standards compliant is one of the most important factors indeed. However, there can be a little more to it than that.

-Security. That alone is a reason to NOT use IE. Worst piece of unsecure code Microsoft EVER made. See the newest Javacript exploit for it? Affects fully patched browsers.... Just like we had one not long ago using IFrames instead. It seems like there's always a way to get past all the "security" of fully updated/fully locked-down IE no matter what. It's by FAR the main reason why spyware is an issue at all (the users are also partially to blame though). They can keep updating it or copy features like tabs, I truly don't care, I'll never use it! (If it didn't break other stuff, I'd remove it completely)

-Features. Firefox may have high memory usage, but the extensions... I only wish something like that would exist for other browsers (although I also wish some of those were built-into Firefox/didn't need an extension for it). It's addictive. The Web developer toolbar, AdBlock (with a good list), Bugmenot, FlashBlock, gestures, Forecastfox, Foxytunes, SwitchProxy, LiveHTTPHeaders, GreaseMonkey (and some scripts), JS debugger, Checky, ColorZilla, XForms, EditCSS, Copy Plain Text, LoremIpsum Generator, StumbleUpon, DictionarySearch, Cookie Culler, etc. Not to mention other niceties like XUL apps (like the totally wicked DevEdge MultiBar and several others), usercontent.css, bookmark management/sync utils, the about:config page and other such things. I wish Opera (or another decent browser) would support them too...

Anyways. I prefer Firefox based on the features/extensions, but really, as long as it's NOT the blue E... Opera, Konqueror, Netscape, Galeon, Safari, etc... They're all good browsers.

Whatever (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14135703)

Firefox still has major performance bugs affecting the display of Flash, memory consumption, and others. They don't get fixed because they aren't ego-boosters like other pet projects. Wish there was a commercial interest in charge of fixing bugs over there.

Re:Whatever (5, Insightful)

Comics (464489) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135726)

Arguably, Microsoft has a commercial interest in Internet Explorer and look at how that has worked out...

Re:Whatever (4, Interesting)

Cyberllama (113628) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135748)

I hate to say it, but there's a definate kernel of truth in that. I know that I periodically have to close all of my firefox windows and start fresh -- after a day or two they start consuming way more resources than they should be. Once in a while, on a website with a flash banner ad, I'll firefox taking up 35% of my cpu.

so.. (1)

master_meio (834537) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135769)

i guess you really like to talk about computers? do you play lunix?

Re:Whatever (4, Insightful)

guardiangod (880192) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135835)

I would probably get flame for saying this.

IE is more stable than FireFox.

Seriously, I use them both equally and, frankly, IE crashes once per day while FireFox crashes _at least_ twice a day. Compare to IE, where as it takes 300mb of ram for the same contents, FireFox takes _1.00gb virtural memory plus ~300mb of ram_, AND squeeze every last bit of ram out of my windows box.

I have to close FireFox once per hour or else my comp freezes like a banana in the mid-winter Arctic.

Yes this is a rant, so please, FF developers, do something about that leak that existed for as long as I could remember.

*Burn karma burn baby*

PS. Image/flash processing mostly.

Re:Whatever (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14135845)

You're computer's corrupted. Hardware or software, doesn't matter. IE crashes every day? I can't stand using Windows and I won't go that far.

Re:Whatever (4, Insightful)

McCarrum (446375) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135867)

I just looked at my Task Manager, and 42,538k .. I have (counts) 15 tabs open, a handful of addons loaded like adblock, fasterfox, tabprefs .. using a custom theme .. four of the tabs have rather active flash animations, one of the pages is littered with them.

This isn't as simple as saying "ZOMGWTFBBQ Fixor it Mozilla!" ...

Re:Whatever (4, Insightful)

guardiangod (880192) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135930)


Disclaimer- I love FireFox, that's why I am using it as my main browser with IE as compatibility checker.

Try going through 500 +150kb jpg/gif files and ~10 +1mb flashes _per hour_.

Seriously, it's so freaking fun it's amazing.

Yes I know my case is probably one of the "extreme user" type, but frankly, I am not the only one complaining about this, if the Mozilla bug forum is any indication.

Re:Whatever (3, Insightful)

Dachannien (617929) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135873)

I almost never have to restart Firefox, except on rare occasions when some third-party plugin (Acrobat, WMP) hoses things up. Something else on your machine must be borken.

Re:Whatever (5, Funny)

NoMoreNicksLeft (516230) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135894)

I would probably get flame for saying this.

MS DOS is more stable than DR DOS.

Seriously, I use them both equally and, frankly, MS DOS crashes once per day while DR DOS crashes _at least_ twice a day. Compare to MS DOS, where Windows 3.11 loads perfectly on it, DR DOS takes forever to load it _and still reqiuires config.sys gymnastics_, AND squeeze every last bit of ram out of my machine.

I have to restart DR DOS once per hour or else my comp freezes like a banana in the mid-winter Arctic.

Yes this is a rant, so please, Digital Research, do something about your horrible WFW incompatibilities that existed for as long as I could remember.

*Burn karma burn baby*

PS. Use a non-shit OS, retard.

MOD PARENT FUNNY (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14135919)

nt

Re:Whatever (1)

staticsage (889437) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135856)

How about better NTLM support, so i can use it to browse my corporate intranet site using FF.

I use FF under XP Pro, Mandrake and NT 4.0.. (1)

msimm (580077) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135890)

Memory problems under 4.0, sure. But major problems under either other operating system?

Sounds like maybe you need a good clean-up. Thats where I usually start when programs start acting erratically.

Re:Whatever (1)

KinkyClown (574788) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135932)

I do believe that you should look at Netscape. They invented this thing and are commercially exploiting the GRE. They are always using an older version of the GRE.

fp!!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14135707)

Frsit psot!!! Oh yes.

This is old (0, Troll)

ajdlinux (913987) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135709)

Fx 1.5 RC1? I'd like to see it with RC3, thank you.

Re:This is old (1)

Wisgary (799898) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135719)

Yeah, this is the Internet, not a damn paper magazine. I got tired of reading out of sync articles years ago.

Re:This is old (1)

Baricom (763970) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135834)

I'd like to see it with 1.5 Final. Tomorrow/today has been strongly rumored to be release day for a while now.

nerf (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14135710)

sh

What competition? (1)

js92647 (917218) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135711)

The Web browser market hasn't seen the competition heat up for a while, but things are getting quite exciting, PC World reports. Right, a closed-source browser like IE against Firefox. Seems to me like IE wants to be a "feature-whore" more than a useful browser. Pfft. I used Opera until I saw Firefox, you can fill in the blanks.

Re:What competition? (5, Funny)

theapodan (737488) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135850)

Actually, with Opera's "wand" feature, you can fill in the blanks much easier than with firefox's comparable feature.

Opera? (1, Insightful)

neoform (551705) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135712)

How does opera keep getting in the headlines?
I know 1 person that uses it, seriously.

I check my weblogs all the time and never see anyone of my visitors using it..

Re:Opera? (1)

cryptoz (878581) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135720)

Now you know two.

Re:Opera? (1)

brilinux (255400) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135736)

Yeah, I use Opera on my Solaris and FreeBSD machines, and Firefox on my Macs. Is there a nice extension or something, though, other than just using CSS to block ads like adblock for Firefox? I find that going back to my other machines after my mac laptop is rather annoying...

Re:Opera? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14135861)

  • http://pgl.yoyo.org/adservers/ [yoyo.org]
  • select "in opera url filter ini format", "no links back to this page", "view list as plain text" and hit "Go".
  • Save all the text except the blank lines and ones starting with "#" into your Opera directory, naming the file "filter.ini".
  • Close Opera if it's running
  • Add the line "URL Filter File=~/.opera/filter.ini" to your opera6.ini under "[Adv User Prefs]".
  • Start Opera and not see ads anymore
  • Eat pie - cuz itz goooooood

My theory? (1)

Travoltus (110240) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135733)

I think Opera messed itself up by selling their web browser at first. People saw FireFox and perceived it to be far better than IE, and at least "good enough" against Opera, and FireFox was free, so there you go.

Re:Opera? (1)

SCVirus (774240) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135734)

Because so few people visit your blog that 1 person is like a 10% market share...

Re:Opera? (1, Insightful)

calvin1981 (922478) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135749)

I check my weblogs all the time and never see anyone of my visitors using it..

That doesn't say much about how many of your visitors use Opera, because Opera by default identifies itself as some version of Internet Explorer. See the Opera page [opera.com] .

Re:Opera? (4, Informative)

croddy (659025) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135783)

No.

It sends a user-agent string that is enough to persuade most browser detection that it's IE, but it includes the word Opera -- and web log analysis tools are designed to recognize that.

This is Opera's default user-agent (from the page you linked):

Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; OS) Opera X.Y

People do, in fact, understand that this user-agent refers to Opera, and they develop their log analysis tools to report that fact. I have never seen a web log analysis tool that didn't understand Opera's user-agent.

The traffic on the webservers I maintain shows Opera at around 0.09% of total hits, just behind Lynx.

Re:Opera? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14135792)

Internet Explorer identifies itself as Netscape 4. Yet Netscape 4's market share is not perceived to be very heigh :-)

Most stat packages know how to look for Opera.

Re:Opera? (1)

Kelson (129150) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135898)

That doesn't say much about how many of your visitors use Opera, because Opera by default identifies itself as some version of Internet Explorer.

Insightful? What Slashdot needs is a -1 Misinformation mod. This meme has been floating around for ages, but as other posters have pointed out, any stats package that is paying attention can tell that it's Opera even under the default identification. It doesn't really disguise itself as IE, it says, "I'm IE (OK, not really, I'm Opera, but I got your attention, didn't I?)" It's kind of like wearing a green T-shirt with the word "Red" on it.

Re:Opera? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14135756)

I use it infrequently as I mainly use Opera.

For me, Firefox crashes at least twice a day, so I would have switch to Opera in a heartbeat if Opera offers extension support. Opera is probably the fastest and most feature rich browser in the market right out of the box right now _without_ sacificing_ stability.

The only thing that is holding me back to Firefox is 1. more website supports FF 2. Flashgot extension.

Re:Opera? (1)

nairnr (314138) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135761)

Make it two! Well, you don't know me, I don't know you...

I quite like using Opera as a browser, and as a mail client. Mouse gestures, tabbed browsing. I find it to be a nice browsing experience. I had used Firefox and Mozilla, but I have settled on using Opera as my browser of choice. Too each there own but I am quite happy that Opera keeps getting press, I think it is a quality browser.

Re:Opera? (2, Insightful)

Al Dimond (792444) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135773)

I think Opera makes headlines not necessarily because lots of people use it but because people writing articles about web browsers care about web browsing and thus are quite likely to have tried Opera. Most people I know that have tried Opera are quite impressed by it, even if they don't use it every day. I use Firefox on the machine I'm posting from (a GNU/Linux box with a GB of RAM) but on machines without the RAM or processing power I almost always install Opera instead. There are a few things I prefer about the look'n'feel of FF, and how much it can be customized, but Opera's performance on otherwise slow computers is really impressive.

So I guess it's kind of like why many web sites discussing operating systems discuss desktop Unixes when for most people their OS decision is "XP Home or XP Pro?" More that the author is interested than the readers.

Re:Opera? (2, Insightful)

Aranth Brainfire (905606) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135774)

You obviously don't know the right sorts of people. I know a couple of people who use it, and I'm a user myself. It's more common on mobile devices I believe, but it's still a more mature browser than Firefox on desktops, in my opinion. A web browser is, to me, something that should "just work", not something that should be customized all to hell with extensions and stuff. Opera does that, and has most of the features of an extension-enriched Firefox. The main thing it's missing is the ideological "Open source is better than EVERYTHING" component, which means that (in my experience), you don't run into as many evangelical Opera users. I honestly don't give much of a damn who uses Opera, as long as the production team keeps making a good, responsive browser that I personally can use without problems. Firefox, however, by design encourages the spreading of itself, as it is in the user's best interest that more people get involved and contribute code or extensions.

Nice site graphics, by the way. Should be at least one record of Opera in your logs now, or they're doing it wrong :p

Re:Opera? (1)

jeezuzz (182383) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135796)

You see no one useing it in your weblogs because the browser identifies itself as MSIE by default,
users have to change the option in preferences to have the browser identify itself as Opera.
Im sure most users, like myself, dont even bother with it.

Re:Opera? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14135805)

You probably don't see them in your logs - I use opera at home, but set it to pretend to be IE version (mumble) to avoid the ever unwelcome "we don't support anyone but ms" messages some sites insist on using

Re:Opera? (-1, Flamebait)

at_slashdot (674436) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135818)

How the %#^$ is this insightful? Ok, we got it, you are a Firefox fanboy and you don't like Opera, so what?

Re:Opera? (1, Interesting)

neoform (551705) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135847)

I have it installed on my system, which is more than i can say about IE.

In all seriousness the percentage of people using Opera compaired to IE or even Firefox is trivial. Why not start talking about iCab or winamp's built in browser? Opera is and probably always will have a trivial userbase..

Re:Opera? (1)

at_slashdot (674436) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135884)

"Opera is and probably always will have a trivial userbase.."

Any particular reasons for that?

Re:Opera? (5, Insightful)

Kelson (129150) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135838)

Opera stays in the web browser headlines for the same reason that Apple stays in the PC headlines: They keep pushing the envelope. Opera's pioneered a lot of browser UI -- mouse gestures, MDI, integrated search boxes. Back in 2000 you could take two Opera subwindows, link them together, and have all links from one window open in the other. There's probably a Firefox extension somewhere, but I can't think of another browser that does that. And while they weren't the first to implement CSS, the main author of the original spec, Håkon Wium Lie, has been an Opera exec for 5 or 6 years.

So sure, they don't have the marketshare, particularly not in the web audience as a whole -- but they've got a large chunk of mindshare within the browser community.

Re:Opera? (1)

kormoc (122955) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135840)

I use opera, and I know about 12 or so others who do as well...

Re:Opera? (1)

sznupi (719324) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135865)

In Europe it has at least (depending on the country) half of Firefox usage, which itself is at about 15%

Re:Opera? (4, Insightful)

Lisandro (799651) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135868)

Because it's a heck of a browser. The fact that it identifies itself as Explorer (to avoid issues with pages that deliver broken HTML) doesn't allow to have accurate usage statistics, but i know quite a lot of people that use and love Opera, me included. Hands down, the best UI in any software i've used as of lately, never mind in browsers, and a sleek, lightweight, fast piece of software.

    Opera gets a lot of (undeserved) flak arround here because it's not open source. They gave away a free, ad supported, 100% functional version and it wasn't enough. Now they gave away registration keys, and i guess that's isn't enough either.

Stupid mods (2, Interesting)

ajdlinux (913987) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135880)

Just a few minutes ago this was rated 4 or 5, it's now 0!

Perfectly valid point, Opera is one of the smallest browsers. I would rather use seamonkey than opera for several reasons:
* it's free and Free (FSF)
* it looks better
* runs better on linux
* XUL
* etc.

Re:Stupid mods (1)

Lisandro (799651) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135893)

Have you tried Opera lately? On my system (Gentoo Linux 2.6, Athlon XP1800+, 512mb) it runs noticeably smoother than Firefox, never mind Mozilla.

Re:Stupid mods (2, Insightful)

Kelson (129150) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135916)

I can see it being overrated, but a troll?

That said, Opera 8 on Linux is IMO comparable in performance to Firefox or Seamonkey, and sometimes better. I've been using it occasionally since 5.0 (well, since 3.6 if you go back to my pre-Linux days), and I think 8.0 was the first Linux version of Opera to achieve parity with the Windows version. I've tried out the Mac version from time to time, but it doesn't seem to have caught up yet.

I'm sure (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14135713)

they're just saving the best for last...

first (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14135715)

first fuck you in your fucking face malda

IN YOUR FUCKING FACE

Avant Browser (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14135721)

For those that dont know, I like Avant browser better than all the others due to being able to control every aspect of it... Disabling flash and other stuff as well as flipping through windows with the scroll wheel (while holding right click) makes it great. Also can close/make new windows with mouse motions by using the right click. I just wish windows had the same features for managing windows as avant has, would be a great addition to vista.

Re:Avant Browser (1)

cryptoz (878581) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135754)

The features you mention sound suspiciously like mouse gestures in Opera...are you sure it's not Opera that you're using? ;)

Can't say I've ever used "Avant" before, but...everything you've said is available in most other browsers, AFAIK.

Re:Avant Browser (2, Funny)

P0ldy (848358) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135787)

Can't say I've ever used "Avant" before, but...everything you've said is available in most other browsers, AFAIK.
You're wrong there. Avant has some features only available in IE, which makes it pretty special. From their FAQ [avantbrowser.com] :

Is Avant Browser a secure browser?

Yes, Avant Browser is secure. Since it's based on Internet Explorer, Avant Browser is as secure as Internet Explorer.

Re:Avant Browser (1)

cryptoz (878581) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135802)

Oh, so Avant is not even a real browser? What a rip.

Re:Avant Browser (1)

Lisandro (799651) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135878)

It's a "wrapper" for IE; it gives you a better interface, but it's IE under the hood alright.

Re:Avant Browser (2, Informative)

aconbere (802137) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135821)

I'm afraid cryptoz is right, what you're talking about is mouse gestures, and as suprising as this may be to you this feature has been available for some time in firefox as an extension and default in opera for ages. *gasp*

If you are however content to use a IE based browser that fails in all the same ways that IE fails (security and standards compliant rendering being my main to beefs) then by all means go right ahead. But be forewarned your avant browser, is nothing but an IE skin, and in my opinion it's not even a very good one.

~Anders

Re:Avant Browser (2, Informative)

Farrell (564771) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135826)

Avant Browser is actually an alternative version, if it's not the direct descendant of, an IE browser called, I believe, IEOpera, who's goal, quite amusingly, was to bring Opera's features to IE. Everything you listed on there is an Opera feature, and some of the more basic ones. It's definately worth trying Opera out itself, if just because it's now completely free.

I wonder... (3, Interesting)

FF8Jake (929704) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135723)

how many ultimately cool creative proprietary new filters they can pack into IE7 instead of getting standards support right. I can see it now, along with the usual "glow" and "shadow" filters, we will also have "rainbow animation" effects!

The glow filter is actually useful (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14135788)

The glow filter is actually useful. Bear with me here...I was designing a hi-glitz web page (OK, I'll confess, it was just a myspace profile. See, I had this crush on this girl on myspace, and I knew that she sometimes looks at my myspace profile, so I wanted to impress her with some kung-fu CSS). Making it look nice in Firefox/Safari/Opera/whatever was pretty easy: Get some transparent PNGs, do some :hover effects; this resulted in a very snazzy looking web page where you could see the background picture.

OK, so far so good. Unfortunatly, this pretty girl who I had a crush on is, how do I say this, browser-challenged. She uses MSIE. Version 6. Probably has every single spyware on the planet on her computer. So, anyway, the question was: How was I going to make this page look decent in IE (a profile where you can see the background, and read the text in both MSIE and any other browser)? I used the glow effect to make the text stand out from the background.

It would be nice if Firefox and Opera would support text-shadow, which allows one to have a glow effect using standard CSS.

Re:I wonder... (2, Informative)

pomo monster (873962) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135812)

Drop shadows are terribly overused nowadays, but they can be enormously helpful sometimes to emphasize elements or set them apart from busy backgrounds, e.g. captions over a photo. text-shadow is already a property in CSS2 [w3.org] , and they're considering adding a "glow" or "outline" to the next recommendation.

Firefox doesn't support text-shadow (or, totally apropos nothing, display: inline-block for that matter), but Safari does, and tastefully applied, it's great to have around. Why IE doesn't pair its proprietary filters to standard CSS properties like these is beyond me.

Opera (3, Interesting)

roman_mir (125474) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135725)

Just a couple of months ago I remember a story here, on /., about Opera giving away free serial numbers for their browser to anyone who wanted one (or more.) I must admit, I got myself one of those numbers and tried the browser and hated it. So I am stuck with FF for now because there is no way in hell I will use IE ever again in my life (haven't used it except in corporate environment for IE based intranet apps that someone wrote for over 3 years now.)

But I am getting disappointed with FF - it crashes badly, processes get stuck, memory is an issue. There are problems. I hope these problems will be fixed quickly because this is getting annoying, and even though I told DarkSin here [mozilla.org] that I am not about to port LeetKey to Opera because I am not using it at the moment, I may just have to do that if I decide to switch to that browser if I feel that FF is just not what I want to see as a browser.

Re:Opera (2, Interesting)

cryptoz (878581) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135737)

Why did you hate it? I've been an Opera user for coming up on three years now, and I admit I disliked it at first. I'll even go so far as to say that it's one of those applications that just flat out doesn't feel right at first...but seriously, I can't go back to anything else. Not FF, not IE, not Konqueror, nothing, just because Opera is so wonderful. Are you sure that you didn't allow yourself time to get the feel of it? Did you customize it at all? I also admit that by default Opera's interface is awful, but in the end it's all about the customization, isn't it?

I suggest you give Opera another chance, since it sounds like you gave up on it rather quickly.

Re:Opera (1)

roman_mir (125474) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135776)

I hated it because it felt awkward and unnatural. Obviously if problems in FF really get to me I will have to deal with this awfull feeling I have when I look at Opera when it opens. But I am still hoping FF will get fixed in the real release of FF1.5

Re:Opera (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14135872)

Out of the box, Opera does not feel or look like FF or IE. It puts basic things in different places. I tried to switch everything to look like ff for 30 minutes, then realized I could just use ff. That is my boring story of why I, and 99% of the other people out there don't use Opera, and probably never will.

Re:Opera (1)

gaveawaymyname (934554) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135889)

I jumped on the Opera bandwagon when it went free (8.5?) and I thought it was great.

I ultimately went back to Ff because I didn't like the all-in-one browser/mail/etc. It had some issues on XP (install/uninstall oddities). It also crashed when I repeated the same word using Speak (like 100 times), but I should have seen that coming.

I even had to go grab Auto Refresh [mozilla.org] , Mouse Gesture [mozilla.org] , and QuickNote [mozilla.org] (with the All-in-One Sidebar [mozilla.org] , of course).

Re:Opera (5, Funny)

John_Booty (149925) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135750)

I told DarkSin here that I am not about to port LeetKey to Opera because I am not using it at the moment, I may just have to do that if I decide to switch to that browser if I feel that FF is just not what I want to see as a browser.

Okay. Fair enough. Let's see what "LeetKey" is...

LeetKey is similar to Russ Key... this extension allows typing and transliterating English into 1337 and other encoding schemes such as ROT13, Base64, HEX, URL etc. For some encodings this extension will translate the text back into English

Wow. What a blow it will be to Firefox if you drop active development of that. Christ.

Re:Opera (3, Interesting)

roman_mir (125474) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135766)

You are right, it's not a big deal. It is only loss of mindshare. I am not silly to think that anyone cares, I am saying that I will move and I am not the only one.

Re:Opera (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14135780)

Try K-Meleon [sourceforge.net] , it is Gecko-based but lacks most of FF's faults.

It seems to me, (3, Funny)

BattleRat (536161) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135729)

that the most compelling argument to NOT use Firefox in favor of IE died when the "IE Tab" extension came out. Everything you need is now within your reach with Firefox. You have no excuse now...

Re:It seems to me, (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14135777)

Thankyou :D You just found the extention allowing me to bury that little blue e icon forever :)
The only reason I still needed it was for Windows Update and Dell Premier... (Although Opera works with the dell site)

Both Opera And Firefox Support SVG (5, Informative)

sysrpl (740738) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135730)

Both Opera and Firefox are rolling native SVG support into their browser. If you are unfamiliar with SVG, this site.

http://svg.codebot.org/ [codebot.org]

Re:Both Opera And Firefox Support SVG (1)

master_meio (834537) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135793)

so i guess you really like computers, huh? do you talk about lunix a lot? i can play lunix on my computer.

Re:Both Opera And Firefox Support SVG (1)

BlueEar (550461) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135813)

Support is still buggy in Firefox 1.5. I just experienced a complete xorg lock when I tried to look at the tiger logo at http://svg.codebot.org/ [codebot.org] . This happened under Ubuntu Breezy (5.10).

Re:Both Opera And Firefox Support SVG (2, Informative)

Kelson (129150) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135879)

They're both subsets so far -- and unfortunately they're not the same subsets. Opera 8 supports SVG Tiny [opera.com] . Mozilla intends to implement SVG Full eventually, but the current SVG support in Firefox 1.5 [mozilla.org] is still missing quite a bit.

So some features work in both browsers, some only work in Opera, and some only work in Firefox.

Completely non-informative article (4, Informative)

AcidArrow (912947) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135740)

To sum it up: IE7 gets tabs and better security (supposedly) (wow, we already knew that for quite a while) FF gets autoupdates that work (well, we all know that already) and Opera gets a variety of new features (but they were unable to test them for the article)

IE 7 , why bother? (1)

DrkKnght (934620) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135743)

If you want tab browsing and the extras and want to use IE as the heart of your browser, than get the latest version of Maxthon. I tried a beta version of IE7 that was a legit download I found on a site through a link from another site, I think the link was on Lockergnome. I found it poorly set up as far as tool bar placement was concerned and slow. When I uninstalled the program in favor of Maxthon, I lost all use of IE6 even though I could use Maxthon. Took a while but through the sfc function of winxp I was able to get IE6 back. I have no intention of trying IE7 again. I will stay with Firefox 1.5 RC until the official version comes out and use Maxthon only when less freindly sites force me to.

You've gotta check out IE Tab! (2, Interesting)

thecampbeln (457432) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135825)

This is an extension I found a few days ago, and though YMMV in the few days I've been using it it works pretty damned well (in the latest 1.5 RC to boot!) Enjoy! [mozdev.org]

Re:IE 7 , why bother? (1)

giorgosts (920092) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135882)

Notice how much less system resources are used when viewing multiple pages in Maxthon than multiple windows in IE, or FF for that matter.

MSN will be the default... (1)

bsaxon (823024) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135745)

Will MSN be the default site/source used for search and homepage in IE 7, and MSNBC for news, etc. like MS has always done? I would assume that it would be... I think that has always been a problem with IE... in many ways. The dominance of using MS-created products instead of popular/superior third party resources. To get the most enjoyable experience you had to customize and tweak everything to make things convenient... like the Links toolbar in IE is annoying b/c it is filled with Microsoft related products and services that people rarely take the time to think of its usefulness.

what about galeon? (4, Informative)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135753)

Galeon [sourceforge.net] recently released v 2.0. Considering that most /. users claim to hate windows and love linux, it saddens me that such a feature rich browser gets completely ignored.

Re:what about galeon? (1)

ajdlinux (913987) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135768)

Galeon is based on Mozilla.

Galeon is a minor browser because it only runs on Linux, requires GNOME and doesn't have all the cool extensions that Fx gets.

It's a pretty good browser though.

Re:what about galeon? (2, Informative)

MaskedSlacker (911878) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135823)

Its a fine browser, but like FF is based on mozilla, lacks extensions, or even the nifty features of opera. All in all, opera and FF are hands down the two best across all platforms, and if FF didn't have extensions, Opera would win. Opera > FF w/o extensions, FF w/ extensions >> Opera.

Opera UI (0)

strredwolf (532) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135760)

It's nice that Opera's free again, and it was useful... ...once before. Now, I can't stand it.

  • I can't configure it to use larger fonts.
  • I can't change the layout to be what I like.
  • The URL bar doesn't let me Tab-Autocomplete
  • It basically doesn't follow IE and Firefox's own UI, nor allow me to change it so it does.


It was a nice browser when it was working for Windows 3.1. Now, it's nice but it makes me want to yank the source code from Opera's hands and rip it apart like Larry Wall did to rn.

For Linux, it's Firefox (plus the Gecko browsers) and Konqueror. I can't wait for Dillo to be fully grown. Makes me want to write my own...

Re:Opera UI (3, Informative)

cryptoz (878581) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135791)

I can't configure it to use larger fonts.

Actually, you can. Look under Tools / Preferences / Advanced.

can't change the layout to be what I like.

Ah, this is interesting. You see, I can't get FF to make it the layout I like (one of my main reasons for using Opera.) I have the address bar and the tab bar at the bottom of the screen, and no File Edit etc menus at the top. Last time I checked, it was either impossible or nearly so to get FF to do this. So, I understand what you mean about interface being a big deal, but it's not Opera's fault that it doesn't work just the way you specifically want it to. I'm not blaming FF for it's configuration problems, even though I believe it has some.

Re:Opera UI (3, Informative)

Aranth Brainfire (905606) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135822)

"I can't configure it to use larger fonts."

You mean like the option, "minimum font size (in pixels)"? Or the options that allow you (in the same part of preferences, "fonts") to define the default fonts and sizes for websites? Or perhaps do you mean the option to zoom in on any webpage (although that increases the size of images too...)

I'm getting tired of this (5, Funny)

yootje (770109) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135798)

They are only browsers! A piece of software where you can check out websites with! They are not that important, you see. Dude.

Re:I'm getting tired of this (2, Insightful)

cryptoz (878581) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135866)

Merely because a product is used for a simple task does not make it any less important than anything else. The reason people care so much about the security features in their cars is, shockingly, because it's important. While moving from one place to another is simple, it's very important. Actually, by the nature of things, the more often a task is performed, the more important it is. Without very advanced browsers, one of the most common tasks of today's world for anyone - using websites - would become dangerous for nearly all computers.

Re:I'm getting tired of this (2, Informative)

Phroggy (441) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135896)

They are only browsers! A piece of software where you can check out websites with! They are not that important, you see. Dude.

What percentage of your time using a computer is spent using a browser? For most of us, it's a pretty significant percentage. That's what makes it important.

The Article is a Bit Misleading (3, Interesting)

nant (534932) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135806)

It mentions a new widgets feature. Most chances are that the author is confusing the AJAX SDK opera released not too long ago (http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/en/2005/11/15 [opera.com] ) to be a new Desktop feature.

Aside of the above, it is a pretty good article. Kudos to my fav. browser maker ;)
/me eagerly awaits Preview 2/Beta 1/votevah!

Spam Me! (0, Troll)

d3fault (934623) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135841)

Hey I didn't RTFM but look at my post count!

Opera beats out Gecko (4, Informative)

Bitsy Boffin (110334) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135897)

For a long time I was a big advocate of gecko based browsers. Then firefox started to suck a bit, ok, it started to suck memory and CPU a LOT, not all the time, but enough to be incredibly annoying.

A few months ago I started using Opera again (I've used it since Windows 3.1 days, but not seriously since then) full time, it took some configuring, I changed some keyboard shortcuts (CTRL-T to open a new tab for a start), added a web developer type toolbar, rearranged some stuff, and got a nice skin for it. But man, it's just so much faster and more responsive than Firefox.

There are only three things I miss.. the abundance of plugins (some I miss particularly - live headers , url navigator and the flash click to play thingee), Venkman, and a designMode/contentEditable API (rich text (html) editing in the browser). Opera 9 implements designMode now, so that just leaves 2 before Gecko browsers earn the "browser of 2nd to last resort" badge from me.

People really should give Opera a fair try, it really is better than Gecko IMHO. And now it's free (beer), there's not much of a reason not to give it a shot.

Opera (1)

theseeria (849566) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135914)

Personally, I believe Opera is better then Firefox as a general browser. It doesn't suffer from the same instability and memory problems. However, Opera doesn't have the same expandability that Firefox offers and the interface is a bit more clogged. Additionally, the way it renders stuff is ugly [not broken].

take what you can get (4, Funny)

wardk (3037) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135920)

On the other hand, the IE 7 beta will not be available for downloading until early next year.""

good to see microsoft is upgrading the internet soon, we get to read about firefox and opera in a mainstream rag

safari!!! (0, Troll)

crashelite (882844) | more than 8 years ago | (#14135923)

i use safari haha i use it cause it rarly crashes... oh wait i have a mac... it doesnt have those silly security problems that pc's have... ( i think it might be because no one cares to find them in apple or no one wants to... or the fact that is is more stable... reliable... and ya...) well safari has many good features but the 1 it seems to lack is anti fishing one
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