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Java Is So 90s

Zonk posted more than 8 years ago | from the please-keep-it-at-defcon-2 dept.

Java 923

An anonymous reader writes "Some of you may recall last year's Java vs. LAMP Slashdot flamewar. The fight has now "brewed" (couldn't resist) into the mainstream press at BusinessWeek." From the article: "Yared says developers far and wide are creating a new generation of Internet-based applications with LAMP and related technologies rather than with Java. Can it possibly be that Java -- once the hippest of hip software -- has become a legacy technology, as old and out of style as IBM's (IBM) mainframe computers and SAP's corporate applications? Mounting evidence points to yes. Reports by Evans Data Corp., which does annual surveys of the activities of software developers, show Java use is slipping as LAMP and Microsoft's .NET technology gain traction."

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923 comments

The real 90s versus outdated 00s software (4, Interesting)

dada21 (163177) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249096)

When I think of the 90s, I think of my days designing in RIPterm [wikipedia.org] and uploading and downloading warez while chatting with Bimodem while trying to figure out the best initialization string to take advantage of the V.42 modem I used.

I definitely do not think of Java as a 90s scripting/programming language -- although I do get very frustrated when Java apps don't run properly on my PDA. I do think that Java is an outdated language that always seemed unfriendly to users and caused a lot of extra cost/headache to my customers when every software company we supported seemed to attempt to create a Java app to access their software engines.

I think Java has (had?) some features that made it easier to program in, especially for not-so-wise programmers. The automatic garbage collection allowed my guys to make quick fixes without worrying about memory management (I am being sarcastic here, I had some real dumb asses subcontracting some of my work). The speed of Java was great too (still sarcastic), and the consistency of the output code was always a positive (yes, still sarcastic).

I guess my big concern with LAMP is what the hell is the P? PHP? Python? Perl? They're all very powerful and they all have their own positives and negatives in regards to quick scripting solutions, but all of them still allow bad programs to churn our badly written programs. I'm guessing that is the trade-off: the more complex programs you can write, the more likely you are to see badly written programs.

It is very hard not to be sarcastic when talking about Java. Every CEO of every company I consulted with loved to spew the big tech words, and Java haunted me for years. I'm glad I don't hear it anymore -- should I thank the dotbomb for that?

In the long run, I think the 90s client-server systems will come back into use. Software companies have every reason to move back to controlling their applications and charging for use rather than licensing the code out to end users. I seriously believe the push for faster cable modems and DSL to the home is through the software developers (and music and video publishers) in order to just stream everything rather than offer the user the ability of unlimited copying. Once you have 2MB WiFi nation wide, there is no need to ever store your programs or your media anymore, right?

Re:The real 90s versus outdated 00s software (1, Interesting)

Billosaur (927319) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249181)

I guess my big concern with LAMP is what the hell is the P? PHP? Python? Perl? They're all very powerful and they all have their own positives and negatives in regards to quick scripting solutions, but all of them still allow bad programs to churn our badly written programs. I'm guessing that is the trade-off: the more complex programs you can write, the more likely you are to see badly written programs.

Languages don't cause bad programs to be written -- bad programmers do! It's just a sign of the decline in pure programming skills. You either have the intellectual "I-have-a-comp-sci-degree" programmer who's good on theory but lousy on execution or the "90-day wonder" programmer who read a book or took a course and thinks they're God's gift to IT.

As to Java, it's just ramped up C/C++ and while it has changed and bettered itself over the years, it's still a thick, clunky language. I tried to learn it once, but it was too much like C, and since I'd found the joys of Perl, I couldn't go back.

Re:The real 90s versus outdated 00s software (3, Interesting)

eneville (745111) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249259)

Its much more than just ramped up c/c++. It's a platform of it's own. c/c++ is compiled, as I am sure you are aware. For the most part java byte code is not executeable as such, its something between executeable and script, close enough to script to be decompiled directly to it's original structure.

Yes perl is nice, but perl itself is 90's also.

There are ofcourse something that java has which these others do not, such as stronger types and a good OOP.

Re:The real 90s versus outdated 00s software (1, Flamebait)

joebp (528430) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249377)

Languages don't cause bad programs to be written -- bad programmers do!

Nonsense. Languages can be specifcally designed to encourage and assist programmers in achieving different outcomes. PHP - being poorly designed - encourages poor practices and certainly does not enforce or even encourage secure code. Hence why it is an absolute disaster in practice.

Re:The real 90s versus outdated 00s software (4, Insightful)

xtracto (837672) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249215)

I do think that Java is an outdated language that always seemed unfriendly to users and caused a lot of extra cost/headache to my customers when every software company we supported seemed to attempt to create a Java app to access their software engines.


How can you call it an "outdated" language? what is an outdated language? Ada is an outdated language, BASIC may be another.

I like Java (as a language) a lot, I have used it for enterprise level applications (supply chain management software) and currently I am using it to make market based simulations.

The wrong thing about Java is the Virtual machine implementation. You can blame Sun for that. If Java is slow, grabs lots of memory and all that it is because of the virtual machine, not because of the language. A language is just a BNF diagram specification which describes the syntax of the program, and all of its reserved words.

What Java needs is a better (less memory and faster) implementation of the libraries it has and the virtual machine to run the programs. As an example, almost everyone who has used C# or any other .NET program can see the applications run quite fast.

Re:The real 90s versus outdated 00s software (1)

dada21 (163177) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249247)

The wrong thing about Java is the Virtual machine implementation. You can blame Sun for that. If Java is slow, grabs lots of memory and all that it is because of the virtual machine, not because of the language. A language is just a BNF diagram specification which describes the syntax of the program, and all of its reserved words.

You're right, and that's the first time I've been reprimanded by anyone for making that connection :) I really do hate the virtual machine implementation. Still, if you're the first person (out of hundreds over the years) to remind me that my hatred extends to the implementation and not the actual language, how many other people -- more powerful people -- are making that same mistaken connection?

Re:The real 90s versus outdated 00s software (3, Interesting)

IAmTheDave (746256) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249353)

I really do hate the virtual machine implementation

As a once was Java developer (now more LAMP and .NET) it seems to me that Java deserves two things. First, it deserves credit as the first of the truly wonderful cross-platform, virtual machine driven JIT compilation using languages. It was, without question, the inspiration for the .NET platform.

However, it also seems to me that Java is just not keeping up. It's windowing libraries still suck. Its VM barely improves with each release.

So Java's claim as a landscape-altering language is indeed deserved, but one must wonder how long it can last. It will probably always have a market, just as C still has a market, despite the likes of C++, Java, etc. However, everything that goes up must come down, and as dynamic internet language, I believe its hayday to be over.

Re:The real 90s versus outdated 00s software (2, Insightful)

Eric Giguere (42863) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249219)

What I don't get is why it's always characterized as "LAMP vs. Java". To be correct it should either be "Perl/PHP/Python vs. Java" or "LAMP vs. LAMJ", because many Java systems are already built around Linux, Apache and MySQL.

Eric
Invisible Fence Guide [ericgiguere.com]

Re:The real 90s versus outdated 00s software (1)

Spellbinder (615834) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249239)

there is no need to ever store your programs or your media anymore, right?
yeah and 640kb ram ought to be enough for anyone
different problems need different tools
the day managers get that, there will be a big load of unemployeed peoples from marketing departments

Re:The real 90s versus outdated 00s software (1)

dada21 (163177) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249275)

yeah and 640kb ram ought to be enough for anyone

Considering what I accomplished with 512kb of RAM for the first 10 years or so, I think I saw better programming during those days :)

different problems need different tools

I concur.

the day managers get that, there will be a big load of unemployeed peoples from marketing departments

(Tinfoil hat warning)

Sure, but these same companies that are "secretly" pushing for more bandwidth everywhere are also the companies that have control over Congressional decision-making. Once the bandwidth is everywhere, once it is cheap and once people are accustomed to AJAX-based applications, how long do you think it will be before the megacorps decide that we don't need to store anything on our hard drives but our browser's temporay internet files?

LAMP, Java & Web 2.0 (1)

broward (416376) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249255)

The LAMP meme has been rising slowly but steadily for years now, which surprised me.

http://www.realmeme.com/Main/miner/technology/LAMP linuxDejanews.png [realmeme.com]

But the real move is that "Web 2.0" is rising rapidly, too, and will probably displace Java & J2EE as the primary job creator over the next two-three years.

Re:LAMP, Java & Web 2.0 (1)

dada21 (163177) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249305)

But the real move is that "Web 2.0" is rising rapidly, too, and will probably displace Java & J2EE as the primary job creator over the next two-three years.

My outsourcing friends in India and Poland are heavily involved in pushing the entire Web 2.0 idea to their subcontractors. Do you think the primary job creation will be in Western nations or the 2nd world countries?

Re:The real 90s versus outdated 00s software (1)

ericdano (113424) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249287)

I hear you man. I still remember a lot of AT commands for modems, even though I left modems behind in 1995 (ISDN baby, then fractional frame, now DSL).

Now, I hope those PUSH clients don't come back. I can't remember the name of the company, but they were really big in 1996ish. Weather, news, etc. Lame.

Somehow I think Java, Perl, PHP and all those others are going to be around for a long time.........

Re:The real 90s versus outdated 00s software (1)

masklinn (823351) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249324)

I guess my big concern with LAMP is what the hell is the P? PHP? Python? Perl? They're all very powerful and they all have their own positives and negatives in regards to quick scripting solutions, but all of them still allow bad programs to churn our badly written programs. I'm guessing that is the trade-off: the more complex programs you can write, the more likely you are to see badly written programs.

You've never actually written python code have you?

Re:The real 90s versus outdated 00s software (1)

dada21 (163177) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249370)

You've never actually written python code have you?

Time preference forced me to stop coding years ago, except for things I knew I could "fix" quickly. Now that I can subcontract all my code to some anonymous programmer in who-knows-what-country and receive my code in minutes, I gave it up. My talents are better suited to things that earn a little bit more than $3 per hours :)

I've researched python though, and it seems like a God-send. Of course, marketing always sells products as salvation, so I'd probably have to talk to the programmers to see what they like and dislike about it. For me, I just need code that works, is commented properly, and is easily adapted down the line by whoever might be doing the job. I promise to look deeper into python :)

Don't Flame Me Because I'm Beautiful ... (5, Insightful)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249103)

The second sentence from the original article posted on /. Started as: "Not to start another PHP vs. Java flame war..."

And now begins the second flame war started by said article.

Gentlemen and nerds, prepare your flamethrowers and ectopacks [tripod.com] (respectively)...

Begin!

When will I see a constructive article comparing and contrasting the two and inviting a civil conversation and an acknowledgement that there are fans on both sides?

Come on, it's not like this is a religious argument or (possibly worse) a Star Wars vrs. Star Trek argument.

UNIX (1)

biocute (936687) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249104)

Is JAVA the new UNIX? It's still useful sometimes somewhere somehow but most people tend to forget/ignore its existence.

Re:UNIX (1)

CmdrTaco (troll) (578383) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249178)

No, Java is what the managers and faggot architect type programmers could never get through their thick heads that it was a piece of shit language with no future.

Re:UNIX (5, Funny)

ackthpt (218170) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249195)

Is JAVA the new UNIX? It's still useful sometimes somewhere somehow but most people tend to forget/ignore its existence.

Meanwhile, somewhere in Denmark, a graduate student is thinking "...I like Java, but not Sun's dictatorial stance on it... I think I'll come up with my own and call it Lava... (Pronounced "LooVa")

Re:UNIX (5, Insightful)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249216)

What irritates me about these sort of articles is that they seem to indicate that language and platform choice ought to be chosen on how "hip" or "kewl" they are, rather than on the strengths they may offer a project. Java has some very important strengths, and to discount it as "so 90s" is rather like discounting C as so "70s". It's an idiotic metric, and encourages the kind of faddish thinking that sees useful technologies judged solely by what some self-serving magazine editors think is the current sexy language.

Here's a tip. Programming languages and platforms aren't sexy. They are tools. Use .NET if that's the tool that best fits what you need to do, or what your employer requires. Or use Java. Or use COBOL, if that's what fits. Under no circumstances should one use the above standard, which is about on the same level as some twelve year old girl deciding whose pictures are going to adorn her wall.

Re:UNIX (4, Insightful)

the chao goes mu (700713) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249278)

I have to agree. Whenever I used to propose that C may be the best solution for a programming task, I would hear "But isn't C out of date?" from a host of "Hooray for Java and XML!" types. When I explained that different languages have different strengths and weaknesses they didn't seem to get it. They were all convinced some new "bleeding edge" technology would come along and solve every problem. It was like watching them eat soup with a fork, trying to explain a spoon to them, and getting the reply "Sure, THIS fork is bad, but wait for the NEXT fork! It will work just fine for soup!"
Wow, that was the most disjointed thing I have posted yet! I was about to delete it, but it is so confusing, I just can't. Enjoy.

Re:UNIX (3, Interesting)

masklinn (823351) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249384)

Here's a tip. Programming languages and platforms aren't sexy

Yes they are, coding in Ruby or Python is actually geniuinely fun and rewarding. Not having the language go in the way and prevent you from thinking about the program (the forest) because you have to think about the code (the tree) is like discovering programmation over again. Being 5 times more productive with a third of the code lines without losing any clarity or expressiveness (quite the opposite in fact) is refreshing.

There is no reason for programming language to not be sexy but the ones you accept when you use crappy languages.

I perfectly agree with the "Use the right tool for the right job", you can't use high level interpreted language when performances and memory footpring are issues, but you won't use Java either anyway...

Re:UNIX (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14249258)

What the fuck is JAVA? It's bloody Java. Why are you randomly capitalising THE letters in a WORD? Java has never ever been an acronym. I doubt you could find a single reference to JAVA on http://java.sun.com/ [sun.com] .

Re:UNIX (2, Funny)

mugnyte (203225) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249317)


Quick! JAVA is the new BSD!

In Related News (4, Funny)

CodeHog (666724) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249124)

Basic is reported as "So 80s".

Re:In Related News (1)

AndroidCat (229562) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249237)

As usual, the news gets it wrong. BASIC was "So 70s".

Re:In Related News (1)

Mark of THE CITY (97325) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249362)

More like 1963 [wikipedia.org]

Re:In Related News (1)

krgallagher (743575) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249308)

" Basic is reported as "So 80s"."

Wow, I wrote my first basic aroung 1975:

  • 10 print "Hello World"
  • 20 goto 10

.NET? (1)

mr_stinky_britches (926212) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249125)

Languages all have their place(s). Maybe a LAMP setup is better in some places, but writing a "real" webapp in PHP vs. Java seems like a no brainer to me :p I'd go with C++/Java everytime.

Everyone else is of course, free to use whatever they want though ;)

Give us some more Ruby On Rails (RoR) Articles!

Re:.NET? (1)

Not The Real Me (538784) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249210)

.NET? hah hah blah hah!
Java? hah ha heh blah!
LAMP? hah hah blah ha!

PHP and C/C++ for me. Anything else is uncivilized.

As the old saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Re:.NET? (1)

the chao goes mu (700713) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249339)

PHP? The language that can't distinguish between a remote webpage and a local file? Or between an internal and external argument? I couldn't imagine writing anything serious in a language like that. C, yes. C++, maybe. Perl, if it is mainly text processing and performance can be a bit slower. Maybe forth if no one else has to ever read or modify the code. But php?

Re:.NET? (1)

the chao goes mu (700713) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249365)

s/between an internal and external argument/between an argument and an internal variable/

I should proofread before hitting submit.

About time (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14249130)

I thought no one would notice my coffee has gone cold!!!

And when they say "LAMP" (2, Insightful)

tcopeland (32225) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249135)

...they mean Linux Apache Middleware PostgreSQL.

And when they say middleware, they mean Ruby [blogs.com] !

PHP vs. Java (5, Insightful)

mysqlrocks (783488) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249144)

Here's my take. For most web sites, use PHP. If you need enterprise level stuff, use Java but don't let anyone tell you that PHP is not scalable, that is simply not true. Don't go to .NET - nothing you can really get on .NET then you can't get with Java. Enough said. Flame On.

Re:PHP vs. Java (3, Insightful)

estebanf (814656) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249217)

true.. but the choice between .NET or Java should be based on other facts different that you hate MS. Consider your enterprise enviroment... if you are in a windows only network, why would you look for trouble with java?...

Re:PHP vs. Java (1)

mysqlrocks (783488) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249270)

Yes, good point. My comment was very much oversimplified. There are WAY to many factors to really make a blanket statement. I would never really recommend a solution to someone until I'd asked a lot of questions. This topic seemed like an open range for flame wars so I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

Mod submitter -1, Troll (1, Insightful)

FortKnox (169099) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249149)

Do a job search right now. Count the number of Java developer positions needed.
Now search for PHP
Then Perl
Then Python.

Now take out about 70% of the Perl and 40% of the Python jobs, as it is most likely to be used as part of admin scripting, not web applications.

Last time I checked, .NET never really lived up to the hype and is slowly dying away.

What I have noticed about the Java world, though, is that most companies are shying away from Websphere, Weblogic and other expensive application servers and switching to Tomcat and JBoss. Most APIs in use are the freely available ones (Struts, JSF, Facelets, Spring, Hibernate, etc...). So companies are finding its easier to go a cheap route with Java than to try and move to the LAMP way of doing things.

Re:Mod submitter -1, Troll (1)

j-tull (201124) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249315)

Last time I checked, .NET never really lived up to the hype and is slowly dying away

What support can you offer for these claims? I am a developer for a medium sized national consulting firm, and > 50% of our business comes from Microsoft shops. The vast majority of these shops are using .NET in one facet or another. All of the newer products coming out of Redmond (Infopath, SharePoint, etc.) use .NET, so most Microsoft centric web shops are making the jump into .NET (even if they're not yet directly aware of it). In fact, Microsoft is putting more .NET into its next generation OS products. In light of these observations, in what sense of the word is .NET slowly dying away?

Re:Mod submitter -1, Troll (1)

FortKnox (169099) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249385)

I also work for about the same type of company in the midwest. We can't hire enough java programmers while we have several .NET'ers on the bench. Been that way all year...

Re:Mod submitter -1, Troll (2, Insightful)

altoz (653655) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249345)

wait... so the more jobs that are out there prove how much better Java is? it's corporate executive morons that made the decision to buy some Java app in the first place that cause these job openings to be there.

Not out of date (1)

Malc (1751) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249154)

If Blu-Ray beats HD-DVD, then Java will have successfully expanded in to another market. It's a good time to have MHP experience.

Re:Not out of date (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14249225)

I know. This is ridiculous. Business Week has no track record in predicting or even understanding computer programming language use or acceptance. This is like watching your nightly local news station to figure out what the Federal government is doing. It doesn't make sense and you aren't going to learn anything useful.

Java programmers are more expensive (2, Interesting)

bigpat (158134) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249156)

Problem is that Java programmers have been bought up by big companies deploying enterprise applications and they really haven't been contributing to open source projects. With all the PHP projects out there that you can just download and deploy and tinker with it is no wonder why php is all over the web now. Java should be easier to deploy as .wars and just as easy to tinker with. But it just seems like every open source J2ee app out there dies on the vine, probably because the java developers got real jobs or else they decided they could sell their software as an "enterprise" product.

Re:Java programmers are more expensive (3, Insightful)

msuzio (3104) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249208)

You haven't checked jakarta.apache.org lately, have you? One of the most active open-source communities out there! Perhaps actual applications using Java aren't as prolific, but the building blocks for them are very much out there, widely used, and actively worked on.

Re:Java programmers are more expensive (1)

a_n_d_e_r_s (136412) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249383)

Yes, strangely enough most of the building blocks needed to write applikations with Java are free software. Still most applikations built using Java är not free software.

I wonder why ?

Re:Java programmers are more expensive (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14249222)

Then why is it that Java is the most used language on Sourceforge, an open source development site?

Re:Java programmers are more expensive (1)

FortKnox (169099) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249351)

egads, you can't be serious.

Tomcat, JBoss, Struts, Spring, Hibernate, countless free, open source tiny java databases

Java applications are almost always built on top of mature, free, open source APIs.

LAMP or Ruby on Rails? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14249157)

Seriously. These articles are popping up because of the realization that you don't FRIGGIN need J2EE to build websites. You need scripting languages and libraries such as Ruby on Rails.

Uh-oh (2, Funny)

BlindSpot (512363) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249165)

From the article summary:

Can it possibly be that Java -- once the hippest of hip software -- has become a legacy technology, as old and out of style as IBM's (IBM) mainframe computers and SAP's corporate applications?

I work for a company that uses IBM mainframes and SAP. I guess that means I should start brushing up on my Java so I'll be ready for its adoption here in about 5 years...

90's? (1)

DarkHand (608301) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249166)

Can it possibly be that Java -- once the hippest of hip software -- has become a legacy technology, as old and out of style as IBM's (IBM) mainframe computers and SAP's corporate applications?

I work for a major telecom company and we just UPGRADED to SAP software. :P

It is to laugh (5, Insightful)

msuzio (3104) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249167)

Oh, please.

Java is still in incredibly heavy use in larger-scale systems and internal applications. It doesn't need to be "hip", "trendy", or "LAMP". It just needs to do a job, do it well, and be maintainable. It does that (and more), has still proven fairly easy to scale from small projects to very large, and is still a decent (though not terrific) language.

It also plays well with many other solutions, by virtue of numerous scripting languages which target Java bytecodes, as well as native code integration if you simply cannot get by without some piece of C code (although, there goes easy portability - one of the major benefits).

These articles are just a joke. That they would even use the term "hip" shows that this is far from a serious study.

Flamewars Gone Wild! (1)

digitaldc (879047) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249174)

It is interesting to note that the page with 'last year's flamewar' not one of the posts were modded as 'Troll' or 'Flamebait.'

Which begs the burning question: Is it possible to have a 'flame war' without one post being identified as 'Flamebait?'


Discuss.

.NET?!? (4, Insightful)

Progman3K (515744) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249177)

Can someone explain to me how .NET is so fundamentally different from Java that it could escape Java's fate?

Isn't .NET (C# really) just a Java rip-off?

I mean really, not long after MS dropped Java, C# "popped up"

It's clear that C# is only a repackaging of Java, why should its fate be any different?

What makes .NET more attractive?

Re:.NET?!? (1)

Tyler Eaves (344284) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249202)

C# runtime sucks much less than java, the language is a bit less S&Mish, and the class library is generally a bit easier to get your head around. In short, NO, it's not just a ripoff of java, it genuinely improves on it in many cases.

I Can't Tell If You're Serious (1)

Petersko (564140) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249271)

Can someone explain to me how .NET is so fundamentally different from Java that it could escape Java's fate? Isn't .NET (C# really) just a Java rip-off? I mean really, not long after MS dropped Java, C# "popped up" It's clear that C# is only a repackaging of Java, why should its fate be any different? What makes .NET more attractive?

Darned text-based communications medium... I can't tell if you're serious. Is it a form of sarcasm so advanced that I cannot detect it?

If you're serious, then look up .NET and see where you've gone wrong.

Re:.NET?!? (1)

j-tull (201124) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249390)

Isn't .NET (C# really) just a Java rip-off?

In a word, no. Although you could argue that C# was/is a Java rip-off, .NET is not just C#.


Rather than repeat a bunch of info, I would offer that you check out: http://www.microsoft.com/net/basics.mspx [microsoft.com] and other Microsoft pages for more accurate information about the .NET platform.

Interpreted Versus Compiled (1, Insightful)

WombatControl (74685) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249183)

The big issue here is speed of development and ease of use. Java is a bitch to learn, it requires a compiler, and it has a syntax that's byzantine as hell. Compare that to an interpreted language like Python or Ruby that has a very spare syntax, is interpreted, and are quite easy to learn.

That isn't to say that Java doesn't have its place, just as an IBM mainframe has its place, but the vast majority of tasks don't require a mainframe. For doing something like simple text process, Java's syntax just gets in the way - why build a massive application in Java when you can bang out a much simpler and easier system in Perl, Python, PHP, or Ruby?

Look at Ruby on Rails [rubyonrails.com] - the idea that you can create a simple but powerful framework that does an excellent job of getting out of your way is nothing short of revolutionary. Struts provides many of the same benefits, but has nowhere near the elegance of Ruby and nowhere near the simplicity.

It's all about the KISS principle, and syntactically and practically Java is just too complex - it's like trying to dust a room with a jackhammer.

Re:Interpreted Versus Compiled (2, Funny)

phasm42 (588479) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249379)

It's all about the KISS principle, and syntactically and practically Java is just too complex - it's like trying to dust a room with a jackhammer.
I'll leave the maid's work to you. We'll be building lasting structures over here.

Re:Interpreted Versus Compiled (1)

AndroidCat (229562) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249381)

Umm. The lines between complied and interpreted are fuzzy even for implementations of languages, with pcode (bytecode, MSIL, etc) and JIT native code compilers. There are few languages that are inherently compiler or interpreter only.

Book sales (1)

tcopeland (32225) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249186)

From the article:
Java-related books are off 4% so far this year, while sales of books related to AJAX, a new Web site-building formula used predominantly with open-source software packages, are up 68%.
That's all very well... but what are the actual numbers? If Java book sales go from 10000 to 9600 while AJAX sales go from 100 to 168... not a big deal as far as this author [pmdapplied.com] is concerned.

Re:Book sales (1)

mountainnstream (938561) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249367)

Nice one, Tom! It looks like you have been busy since Realeum days.

Stupid new buzzword (2, Funny)

wampus (1932) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249189)

LAMP? This is even worse than AJAX as far as stupid new names go. I guess that "Web-based application" doesn't sound cool anymore, nor does "dynamic web page." I suppose it doesn't matter, really. Marketing writes the press releases and we call it whatever we hear the most of, eventually.

I will shut up and get back to coding this app in PHP, now.

Re:Stupid new buzzword (2, Informative)

Anonymous Crowhead (577505) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249246)

LAMP is not a 'stupid new name'. It's been around for 5+ years. You should be ashamed, Mr UID 1932.

Big applications (1)

harmonica (29841) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249190)

PHP with big application tends to become a nightmare. It doesn't have to be. Good modular design, capable developers and you can use every language to build something big and maintainable. Reality paints a different picture.

Damn shame (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14249191)

Microsoft's .NET "technologies" are just a java rip-off

This just in.. (1)

vga_init (589198) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249198)

Surveyors in South Korea have discovered that only old people use Java.

J2EE != Java (3, Insightful)

khrome (85018) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249199)

J2EE is a subset of Java, not the whole thing. Any conclusions drawn about J2EE's problems are not problems which spread to J2SE or J2ME. I work in J2SE every day, I think J2EE is overly complex with very little payoff, so I use other solutions where it would be.

J2EE is dying, long live Java

Re:J2EE != Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14249368)

Here Here! - Java is a fine language; The people who dreamed up J2EE were complexity sadests. I believe they secretly all hate me personaly! I've got it! An alien plot to destroy the web.

Slipping? Why? (1)

symbolic (11752) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249203)


Is it because more developers are using .NET and LAMP, is because LAMP and .NET are necessarily better?

On a side note- funny thing about software and QA. People like to compare a software application (the enginneering aspect) to other fields of engineering, such as those involved in building a bridge. This is an inane comparison, because while software does entail an engineering component, the techscape is constantly changing. New languages, new frameworks, new methods, upgrades, updates- if a bridge can't survive a foundation laid on shifting sand, how can we expect anything different from software?

Re:Slipping? Why? (1)

sydney094 (153190) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249291)

I find the bridge comparison a pretty good one. Bridges are very expensive, so the only way to make them profitable is to make sure that they last a very long time. In order to last a very long time you can't build a bridge on shifting sand... if you do, it will likely be the last bridge you ever build.

If your software is only designed to last a year before rewriting it, then go ahead, build it on "sand" (so to speak). However, if you're designing software for the long term, you better make sure that you're using good solid methods... or else it will eventually fall over like a bridge built on sand.

The 'P' in LAMP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14249204)

Does the 'P' mean Perl, PHP, or Python? Or, does it mean all three?

If I were a young programmer, which language would I select? (I suppose I would select the language depending on the task at hand. In any event, it seems to me that almost anything will produce results faster than Java.) Actually, around here, the answer is simple. Java. Our biggest local employer loves Java.

Re:The 'P' in LAMP (1)

perlchimp (263475) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249314)

It stands for Perl. Always has, always will. Anyone who tells you differently is wrong, idiotic and a bigot.

Re:The 'P' in LAMP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14249372)

A racist too. Proabaly communist even.

Hype Hype Hype (1)

batkid (448363) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249213)

The FTA talks about the rise of ajax based books as if it were a diss to Java. Ajax actually hides the back-end implementation from the front end so it really doesn't matter what you use as long as it spits out XML. Java is just as good a language as any to implement the backend.

I'm not a Java fan boy or anything, but uninformed article based on hype really kills me.

Languages show their age (0)

dkoulomzin (320266) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249214)

Java, like many other languages was a response to problems in the days of its design. Lots of languages have come and gone that tried to address certain problems (and in some cases did so), but had little room for flexibility when the solutions to the original problems made new ones.

I think C has had tremendous resilience not because of inherent benefits (any claim that C is faster than Java is like saying boats are faster than cars) but because of its ability to roll with the times. Of course, at one time it was used for everything and anything, but now its found its place (e.g. in device programming) and the C community doesn't typically try to push it to solve problems for which its not well suited.

Java has indeed become hemmed in by its inability to adapt; but perhaps it is also too broad. Sometimes I think that the standard JDK just has too much junk in it. Maybe this junk keeps it from being agile enough to adjust to hip new needs of today's software developers.

Brewed? (2, Insightful)

Svencer (60261) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249221)

The fight has now "brewed" (couldn't resist) into the mainstream press at BusinessWeek.

The author means "percolated," right? "Brewed into the mainstream press" makes absolutely no sense.

Java / ActiveMQ and more (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14249240)

Java pulled a ton of fast ones around "standardization", plenty of ugly playing from Sun there. I remember loving how they submitted themselves as the independent custodian of the standard, which didn't fly.

That said, when I was looking around for a nice messaging product, a bunch of java products popped up, but nothing on the LAMP stack looked that good. I'm thinking of things like ActiveMQ here. Or workflow applications

Ironically, for some things Java is also now very performant, while new hot things like Ruby on Rails still suffer a bit. How times have changed, and inevitably Ruby on Rails will get is act (and garbage collector) together performance wise as well.

I'm just curious to see where C# and .net go. Liked the lanuage, think the delivery was confused as Microsoft was putting it out there. People didn't seem really comfortable trying to run with it safely.

assert(Java instanceof AJAX) (1)

tcopeland (32225) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249244)

For example, there's Joe Walker's DWR [getahead.ltd.uk] Java/AJAX library.

uh oh (0)

DarthTator (937292) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249250)

I hope Java isn't dead. that's what I'm learning to program in (and my school's cs department teaches programming in)

Re:uh oh (1)

Eli Gottlieb (917758) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249318)

Yeah, it got me pretty mad to here that they've replaced "start with Pascal and eventually move on to C" or just "start with C" to "start with Java and never ween them off it". I swear they must be trying to dumb down the next generation of coders.

Re:uh oh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14249371)

It shouldn't matter what language you're first learning to program with. You know that you will have to learn many other languages (a) before you graduate (b) during your career, right?

--a CS professor

Re:uh oh (1)

altoz (653655) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249388)

I learned to program in Pascal... If that tells you anything. Just learn good programming principles. That's more useful than any particular language you learn.

If anything.. (1)

cybrthng (22291) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249254)

Java is now mature..

Not just as others point out in the amount of jobs available, but in stability, features and extensibility.

I love java for what it does on the development lifecycle. I enjoy my ant deployments through anthill automated to my application servers. I enjoy building war files to deploy, packaging apps as components.

I also love the way Nutch was written. Nutch/Lucene is elegent design, high performance and 100% java.

Bad article: 2 diff things for 2 diff purposes (1)

postbigbang (761081) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249256)

The whole Java hegenomy is a different culture for different apps than LAMP/SAMP etc. "So 90's...." doesn't talk well about platform compatibility, resource management, coding methodologies, and numerous other characteristics. It's like comparing an airbrush to an airchisel. Ok, bad metaphor but also a bad comparison.

Apples and oranges (1)

JourneyExpertApe (906162) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249266)

LAMP [wikipedia.org] is a collection of technologies for making web apps, whereas Java is a programming language that is useful for creating web applications (both on the server side and the client side. Even if Java isn't used as much for the web, it's still useful for making cross-platform standalone (sort of) applications.

Perl and Python are older than Java (2, Insightful)

Per Abrahamsen (1397) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249273)

Perl significantly so, as it is from 1987 compared to Pyhton from 1990 and Java from 1991. Perl was probably the first significant "web application" programming language, so hearing it mentioned as a new breed of languages is kind of weird.

Perl was always a programmers tool, and never had the mainstream hype that surrounded Java from the start, so I kind understand why a journalist could get it mixed up.

Take an Open-Source Metric (1)

Eli Gottlieb (917758) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249282)

People will only work on open-source projects in a given language if the project and language are worth using. So in order to determine which language(s) {Perl,Python,PHP,Java} holds water, check the number of open source projects and their activity levels for each and compare them.

marketing making tech decisions... brilliant (1)

altoz (653655) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249283)

"If you want to do more sophisticated things, you've got to have Java in it," says Tim Yeaton, senior vice-president for marketing at Red Hat.

Okay, what exactly does a marketting person know about programming? Wait, you have to have a slow, much-longer-to-code, ridiculously-processor-intensive language in order to do "sophisticated" things? This sort of idiocy is what drove multitudes of corporations to ask for "Java" without knowing what the heck it was. Sounds to me like the "Intel inside" campaign from the 80's.

Mainframes Old and Out of Style??? (3, Insightful)

jsailor (255868) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249285)

not by a long shot.
My clients are very large financial instituions and I don't know one of them who is reducing mainframe capacity. In fact, almost all of them are increasing capacity.
Most managers find it troubling that their mainframe-centric data centers continue to be well managed, predictable facilities while their Open Systems (UNIX, Wintel, Linux) data centers are a mess. Horribly erratic power and space consumption and many other woes that make management and planning a nightmare. Blade servers have not solved these problems - in fact, they have intensified them (powering and cooling 1000+ W/sq' is much more difficult than 50-100 W/sq').

While style is subjective, age is not. There's nothing old about the new systems IBM recently announced. Also, if being in style leads to huge cost overruns or getting fired, many of might choose to be a little less stylish.

ATi drivers (1, Interesting)

DigiShaman (671371) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249288)

Why oh God WHY did ATI move to .Net. I HATE the driver interface in that it now REQUIRES MS.Net to be installed. At first, we were given the option to use drivers that used it or not. Now with 5.12v, it's required to have any of the advanced options available.

It's just added Bloat. So why even use it on Windows? I sure hope nVidia doesn't start using .Net

marketing... (1)

Spy der Mann (805235) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249296)

Can it possibly be that Java -- once the hippest of hip software -- has become a legacy technology,

Java was once the hippest of hip software - but largely due to Sun's marketing.

LAMP's success was due to the Open Source model. Because you didn't need to take huge training courses or buy huge packages to learn Apache, PHP or MySQL.

Java = Top Down. Here boys, have your language. Use it!
PHP = Bottom up. "Look at the language I made, anyone wants to help extend it?"

Of course, that doesn't make LAMP superior to Java in any way. It just proves that Open Source can be a more effective marketing tool than Sun's marketing team.

Re:marketing... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14249387)

For someone who has "grammar tip of the day" as his sig, I find it ironic that you begin one of your sentences with "because" instead of replacing the preceding period with a comma.

Wrong: LAMP's success was due to the Open Source model. Because you didn't need to take huge training courses or buy huge packages to learn Apache, PHP or MySQL.

Right: LAMP's success was due to the Open Source model, because you didn't need to take huge training courses or buy huge packages to learn Apache, PHP or MySQL.

Not so... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14249332)

If you haven't, you should take a look at

http://www.netbeans.org/ [netbeans.org]

LAMP, etc. is easier to get started quickly. If you get advanced enough, you will start to wonder how can I do more processing client side? Hmmm, ever though of an applet that can just request some server side PHP, Perl? I have not gotten in to the server side Java myself. That is simply because it is not offered on most of the less expensive hosting companies. That is somewhere Sun should really take some time and effort pushing Java.

The more time you spend with "web" development, the sooner you will realize push/pull really sucks for doing anything serious.

Lies, Damned lies and Statistics (4, Interesting)

MacGabhain (198888) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249337)

Java book sales from one publisher are "off 4%" while book sales of some random new technology are "up 68%". Yeh. It's a new technology. Pick something that had its first book hit the shelves around Christmas last year and you'll see it's sales shoot up well over 1000% last year to this.

What worries me is that I teach at a community college. One of my colleagues subscribes to Business Week and takes them quite seriously. I'd rather not have to get into a curriculum battle over this. Business week just needs to STFU about technology in industry, because people who have limited contact with it (either by not interacting with the technology or not interacting with industry) will often take their ill-informed articles as Truth. (Incidentally, I left industry 4 years ago and am close friends with others still in various sectors. Even after only 4 years, I'm very suspicious of my own first thoughts on the way industry is going, and I always get first-hand input.

j2ee is a howitzer (1)

jmcelroy (458252) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249338)

J2EE was designed to do big jobs with proprietary tools. Who in their right mind would want to code an EJB by hand when their are alternatives such as Hibernate.

Also, LAMP tends to scale, not because it was designed to but because it is simple. For instance, you can learn the state-diagram for the creation/deletion of a stateful session bean, or you can just use a browser cookie 90% of the time.

Personally I prefer to code in Java, but I have to admit that I am much more productive in Perl and the like.

All I know is (2, Funny)

ellem (147712) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249340)

I bought Learn Java in 21 Days in like 1996 and I STILL can't program in Java. How do I get my money back?

Java Is So 90s (3, Funny)

mynickwastaken (690966) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249349)

And .NET is Gay

Java: Where Components come from (2, Insightful)

LionKimbro (200000) | more than 8 years ago | (#14249389)

I'm a Python guy, and I think the advantages of Python, Ruby, and (do people still program in?) Perl, and (cough) PHP, are clear.

That said: I envy the Java guys their component research.

If you want to do anything really cool with components, you pretty much have to use Java. It's not because it's a better language. (It's not.) It's not because it's elegant. (It's not.) It's just because Java is where the people are. That's where just about all the component people are.

Java is hideous, Java is complicated, Java is large, Java is unwieldly, and there's nothing more unpleasant than waiting for a Java app to load. Than waiting for Eclipse to load. (shudder.) But you can't beat their components research.

Just about every single component project I know of, is just copying technique from the Java people. And usually far behind.

(off-mic:) Isn't Perl a fable, these days?

Obligatory Anchorman quote (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14249392)

Brick Tamland: I love... desk.
Ron Burgundy: Brick, are you just looking at things in the office and saying that you love them?
Brick Tamland: I love lamp.
Ron Burgundy: Do you really love the lamp, or are you just saying it because you saw it?
Brick Tamland: I love lamp! I love lamp.
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