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Departure Of The Java Hyper-Enthusiasts?

Zonk posted more than 8 years ago | from the just-calm-enthusiasts-left dept.

Java 678

TomH writes "Bruce Eckel has an article at Aritma, where he posits that 'The Java hyper-enthusiasts have left the building, leaving a significant contingent of Java programmers behind, blinking in the bright lights without the constant drumbeat of boosterism.' Has the previous hype of Java and J2EE moved on to Ruby (on Rails) and Python?"

cancel ×

678 comments

What?!?! (-1, Troll)

alfrin (858861) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319198)

All six of them?

Switched to decaf, did they. (5, Funny)

Orrin Bloquy (898571) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319201)

Sorry.

Re:Switched to decaf, did they. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14319467)

When will someone make a new Ruby framework so everytime we mention Ruby, Rails is not automatically in the same sentence? Ruby != Rails. Rails is fun, I do like parts of it, but it is not the only thing in Ruby web development. I see why people like it, but it leaves a lot to be desired in parts. ORM for instance is not always a good thing. Most Ruby development is not with Rails. Please stop talking about Rails like it is a godsend. I would think Rails if anything should inspire you to make a better framework after seeing what someone can do with Ruby + Established Design Patterns like MVC.

SUN Microsystems (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14319207)

They opened (sic, CDDL) the wrong asset. Incompetence until the bitter fucking end.

Next Question (3, Insightful)

Ridgelift (228977) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319210)

Has the previous hype of Java and J2EE moved on to Ruby (on Rails) and Python?
Yes. Next question please.

Re:Next Question (4, Funny)

TubeSteak (669689) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319250)

What about AJAX?

Doesn't it get to be on rails too? Or is it going to be limited to that accursed "rubber wheel" we've been hearing about?

This "Ruby on Rails" sounds like a monopoly in the making.
/. should be wary

FP (-1, Offtopic)

mindtriggerz (914619) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319215)

First post?

Hype? (3, Informative)

whargoul (932206) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319226)

I have to say, I haven't heard near the hype about Ruby and Python that I heard about Java. Although I must admit, the Java hype has died down quite a bit.

Re:Hype? (4, Insightful)

Otter (3800) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319541)

1. There's no big company behind Python and Ruby.

2. There are no idiot VC's handing out cash to start Marimba-ish companies based on vague ideas about using Python and Ruby.

3. Python and Ruby don't have an easily-understandable if not really accurate hook comparable to Java's "write once, run anywhere" hype.

Re:Hype? (1)

BlueCodeWarrior (638065) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319582)

Quite anecdotal, but it doesn't seem that the hype has died around here.

I have only one wish, and that's that the Java hyper-enthusiasts would depart from my university's staff. The amount of Java classes here is ridiculous.

Re:Hype? (1)

nother_nix_hacker (596961) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319595)

Although I must admit, the Java hype has died down quite a bit.


Personally I think the Java hype has done an about turn. At risk of being modded flamebait; when choosing tools for projects at work we skip over Java every time.

IMHO Java is a great language poorly implemented.

Re:Hype? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14319601)

Java marketing had interesting quotas/bonus-programs around the hype (measurable by metrics like %age of computer-book-shelf-space in bookstores) that were concrete goals for their marketing staff.

Obviously, stupid artificial goals like that generated a lot of hype around features and capabilities that were not at all justified.

To the best of my knowledge, RoR has no such marketing incentives; so most of the hype is a result of the products, rather than an independant effort orthogonal to the products (as in the case of Java and .NET)

good riddance (0, Redundant)

LOTHAR, of the Hill (14645) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319235)

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Too bad they went to rails, I'd rather they just went away.

Re:good riddance (2, Insightful)

cryfreedomlove (929828) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319276)

I don't understand this level of hostility for java. It works well for large web application development. EBay.com is implemented with java.

Please explain your loathing of java.

Re:good riddance (1)

darth_MALL (657218) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319301)

Do not question Lothar - He has walked with many women!

Re:good riddance (2, Insightful)

CableModemSniper (556285) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319320)

He doesn't loathe Java. (Well maybe he does, but its impossible to determine from his post). He loathes hyper-enthusiasts.

Re:good riddance (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14319355)

Umm....

One can hate fanboys and hype, even if they love the language.

Some of us just like to get work done.

Re:good riddance (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14319456)

One can hate fanboys and hype, even if they love the language.

As a corollary: I hate Honda fan-boys, especially the ones who preach fuel efficiency and emissions, then put $100k into making their car run at 4mpg with no chance of passing state emissions testing. That doesn't mean I hate Honda, because they put out some really great products. I mean, have you seen the new Civic?

maybe to ruby, not python (4, Interesting)

Surt (22457) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319241)

No one I've met doing serious development is building on python, it's just too error prone. Ruby (and on rails) are definitely gaining serious adherents though. Particularly with ruby likely to become a first class JVM language, Ruby's future looks pretty bright. Ruby may well replace java as the syntax of choice for developing big web apps.

Re:maybe to ruby, not python (1)

1010011010 (53039) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319266)

Do you have a link for this ruby-on-jvm thing?

I'd personally like a "Python Application Server" that's on a level to compete with J2EE.

Re:maybe to ruby, not python (1)

Surt (22457) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319519)

Some people from Sun discussed it (at JavaOne) being in progress for java 6-7. That is, it will likely have a compiler in the java 6 timeframe, and will become a fully supported language in the java 7 timeframe. I don't have a link for you because Sun isn't publicly committed to this yet, so it could not happen, but given their interests that seems unlikely.

Re:maybe to ruby, not python (1)

zootm (850416) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319283)

What's more error-prone about Python as compared to Ruby? I'm curious because I've read a lot of discussions on the differences between the languages, and it's never been an issue that's come up once.

Re:maybe to ruby, not python (2, Insightful)

Surt (22457) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319547)

Pythons syntax relies on whitespace rather than closure for depth management. It's foreign to a sufficient number of programmers to represent a real bug risk, particularly as you try to grow toward building large programs.

Re:maybe to ruby, not python (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14319302)

You must not get out much.

Re:maybe to ruby, not python (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14319420)

Nah the guy probably knows a lot of real life programmers and not too many "I'm a Python guy" types that do some stuff and claim is't just as good the professional stuff they never used..... Python is pretty nice tool for some things, but it's mainly overhyped by it'own users.

Re:maybe to ruby, not python (3, Interesting)

SilentTristero (99253) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319365)

[This is not a troll, it's a serious question from someone who's about to start a major db-driven web app.]

OK, everyone knows Java's a nonstarter these days. Ack, why did they kill it with Swing instead of a decent lightweight GUI (like wxWidgets [wxwidgets.org] or FLTK [fltk.org] or something)? And they never got the memory usage under control.

But why Ruby and not python? What sort of errors is python prone to that ruby avoids? We have a bunch of python code here (scons [scons.org] and other stuff) and a bunch of older perl, and I'm reluctant to start a big web app in Yet Another Language. We all know python pretty well now. Is ruby going to be that much more maintainable? What about TurboGears for instance?

Also there seems to be a wider variety of libs available for python than ruby. And the python docs are very good. So I'm very interested to hear about the error-prone nature of large web-app development in python.

-- SilentTristero

Re:maybe to ruby, not python (4, Informative)

Simon Brooke (45012) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319514)

This is not a troll, it's a serious question from someone who's about to start a major db-driven web app.
OK, everyone knows Java's a nonstarter these days. Ack, why did they kill it with Swing instead of a decent lightweight GUI ...

If you're writing a web app, Swing is an irrelevance. You won't be needing it and it won't get in your way. Java remains an excellent choice for serious web apps which you're going to want to maintain later. I agree with you that Swing is a horrible mess, but as someone who only writes web apps it doesn't wory me at all.

Re:maybe to ruby, not python (2, Interesting)

Tim C (15259) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319531)

OK, everyone knows Java's a nonstarter these days.

Quiet you fool! My employers and clients might hear you! Then what would I do for a job, eh?

Seriously, I have six years commercial experience of writing web apps in Java. Would I recomend it for absolutely every situation? No, of course not. Is it categorically a non-starter? No, of course not.

The right tool for the job; Java has its place, and to deny this with the blanket assertion that it's "a nonstarter these days" is to reveal a closed mind.

Re:maybe to ruby, not python (5, Insightful)

adamhupp (29341) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319550)

A few comments:

1. I've started using Turbogears and its is wonderful. Easy to setup, very easy to understand, and very powerful. I cannot comment on it with respect to Rails, but as far as I know it is inspired by similar ideas. One major advantage of Turbogears is that it is built out of several existing projects that have had lots of use and development, SQLObject (for Object-Relational mapping) and CherryPy.

2. I can't imagine any reason to believe Python would be more error-prone than Ruby. From a language standpoint they are very similar. However, Ruby is a somewhat immature language compared to Python. Standard library, 3rd party support and performance are all lacking in Ruby. I'm sure these things will catch up in time, but for now it's a much newer environment and it shows.

Re:maybe to ruby, not python (1)

forkazoo (138186) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319580)

Why do you dismiss Java as a non-starter? Certainly, the hype has died down, but it is also a fairly well-known, mature language with a massive standard library, and a ton of existing code available. I was never a fanboy, but I have used Java, and it really isn't terrible. I do think that it gets used in a lot of places where it shouldn't. As for the GUI issues -- you said it was a web app, right? How much of a Java GUI do you need? Even if you do need a GUI, I've always found Java GUI's quite easy to make, and reasonably fast. No, not as fast as writing straight native Win32. But, I use programs like azeurus without any issues, and it is fairly GUI intensive.
That said, my first love for database backed web apps is always PHP. Personal preference. Some people will criticise it, but it works well enough for the stuff I've done with it.
[This is not a troll, it's a serious question from someone who's about to start a major db-driven web app.]

OK, everyone knows Java's a nonstarter these days. Ack, why did they kill it with Swing instead of a decent lightweight GUI (like wxWidgets or FLTK or something)? And they never got the memory usage under control.

But why Ruby and not python? What sort of errors is python prone to that ruby avoids? We have a bunch of python code here (scons and other stuff) and a bunch of older perl, and I'm reluctant to start a big web app in Yet Another Language. We all know python pretty well now. Is ruby going to be that much more maintainable? What about TurboGears for instance?

Also there seems to be a wider variety of libs available for python than ruby. And the python docs are very good. So I'm very interested to hear about the error-prone nature of large web-app development in python.

No "serious development" on Python? (5, Insightful)

Zancarius (414244) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319388)

No one I've met doing serious development is building on python, it's just too error prone.

I don't suppose you've heard of this company [google.com] before?

There are dozens of others, too. I'll cite this page [python.org] as a source, though it is by no means comprehensive.

Re:maybe to ruby, not python (3, Interesting)

nother_nix_hacker (596961) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319389)

No one I've met doing serious development is building on python
I work for a large tech. company in the UK and use Python for _a lot_ of my development. Google use it too: "Python has been an important part of Google since the beginning, and remains so as the system grows and evolves. Today dozens of Google engineers use Python, and we're looking for more people with skills in this language." said Peter Norvig, director of search quality at Google, Inc. Go to jobserve.co.uk and type Python into the search box. Tonnes of results come up.
it's just too error prone
What in gods name is that meant to mean? Too error prone? I've never heard such flamebait in my life. Just because you write buggy software in a language doesn't make the language "error prone"! I'd love to hear you elaborate on this...

Re:maybe to ruby, not python (5, Informative)

latin_fury (940829) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319438)

That's funny, reddit.com just switched to Python (http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/rewritingreddit [aaronsw.com] ). And Google uses Python extensively inside the company, and just hired Guido van Russom, Python's creator. There are many more examples out there if you bothered to look.

Re:maybe to ruby, not python (2, Funny)

Concerned Onlooker (473481) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319543)

Ruby may well replace java as the syntax of choice for developing big web apps.

So what you're saying is that Java is being ridden out of town on a Rail?

What? (1)

Ginza (940575) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319243)

Um, people move on. It's okay. I don't think the 30 java programmers are going to cry themselves to sleep tonight. Most likely they'll go buy another book and learn the next language, just like they did when java got big.

Python hype does not exist (1, Funny)

hsoft (742011) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319262)

Whatever praise it gets is well deserved.

Re:Python hype does not exist (4, Informative)

wmshub (25291) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319404)

That's all a matter of opinion. I'm using python right now in a project, 35,000 lines of python at the moment. I've done Java apps of similar (or larger) size. I find python to have some nice features, but to be pretty badly unsuited for large projects. The lack of information hiding makes it very hard to ensure that fellow programmers use your classes in the way intended (and before anybody says "a good programmer will do what your comments say, so fire the people who just use the code they see" - shut up, it is not possible to hire a team of all super-diligent programmers), small typos in function/variable names aren't caught nearly as quickly, performance is far behind java (which in turn is behind C/C++ of course), etc.

Back to the topic: based on what I'd heard about how great python was, I'd say python *IS* overhyped. It has its place where it does very well; it's a nice little scripting language. Better than sh or perl in a lot of cases. But it is not even in the same league as java for medium-to-large projects. I'd heard a lot of people call python a better replacement for java, and it just isn't.

Re:Python hype does not exist (1)

carpltunl (604615) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319496)

Wouldn't "badly unsuited" mean "well suited"?

Note to self - Next year, be serious.

CS programs + obligatory (-1, Offtopic)

Council (514577) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319263)

I'm not really qualified to comment on this (this admission may be a first in Slashdot history) since I've never coded in Java, but I will note that the CS programs at both my university and my brother's high school have recently switched from C++ to Java. I'm not sure what exactly this signals, though.

Obligatory bash.org:

<Alanna> Saying that Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders

Re:CS programs + obligatory (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14319288)

Saying that Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders

Time to switch to Java!

nothing (1)

Penguinoflight (517245) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319335)

The problem is, while the universities are teaching Java, their mailing lists only advertise jobs with c/c++ experience. Neither C or C++ counts for any credit at my school, but you need to be awesome in them to get a job out of college. Bottom line: the university doesn't want to teach you, they want your money.

Re:nothing (2, Funny)

mumblestheclown (569987) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319353)

Bottom line: you clearly confuse a university with a trade school.

Re:nothing (1)

yuriyg (926419) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319589)

mumbles, Although I 100% agree with your comment, I have to say that trade schools should teach Java, while Universities should teach C++. To me C++ is an excellent language to learn both, OO and the way the code executes on the machine, since you get exposed to both. Java teaches you how code executes on JVM. Doesn't help you much with other languages. Python on the other hand is a great way to some new concepts that have been excluded from "curly-brace" languages. (lambdas, gererators, etc.). This will actually make you write better code in C++/Java

Just recently switched from C++ to Java? (1)

tashpool (919935) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319403)

ASU and my friend's colleges in the same area have been heavily Java for mainstream CSE classes for a number of years now. When I first entered the University back in the late 90's people were whispering something about how all the classes have just switched to Java.

They were right, I only had one class that specifically used C++ (in an MFC environment) and we were really only doing OpenGL programming in a predefined project. Other than that, it was all Java and some lisp/prolog for AI and language theory.

Re:CS programs + obligatory (1)

Ostien (893052) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319498)

A year ago my school switched their programming class from C++ to Java as well. Because of this my school bought all new books. And now the "hype" is over and schools may have to change again soon thus losing a lot more money :( .

How about this quote? (5, Funny)

$RANDOMLUSER (804576) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319274)

> Ruby is to Perl what C++ was to C.

My worst write-only nightmare...
*runs screaming from building*

Re:How about this quote? (1)

Skowronek (795408) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319372)

Dammit. Where's (+5, Troll) when you need it!

Seriously, my first reaction to Ruby was "Gak. Perl."

older platforms (1)

kevin.fowler (915964) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319279)

I work with a program that's not exactly new... minus the content we pass through it. There's plenty of refuge for Javanerds working with apps like that. Of course that means there would likely be a decline in pay.

Re:older platforms (1)

iluvcapra (782887) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319393)

Interesting point... s/Java/COBOL

no! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14319281)

"Has the previous hype of Java and J2EE moved on to Ruby (on Rails) and Python?""

God, I hope not. Anything but Ruby and Python.
(anything with c/c++ style syntax, that is)

What about LAMP (1)

Hao Wu (652581) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319282)

I thought LAMP was supposed to be "the next java"....(?)

Re:What about LAMP (1)

theurge14 (820596) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319308)

Write once, run on Linux everywhere?

Re:What about LAMP (1)

psyclone (187154) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319379)

What? You cannot seriously compare PHP/Perl (even mod-perl) with Java/J2EE (as an application server) for large projects. PHP and Perl work great for small web apps, blogs, etc. But for maintainability, Java/J2EE are great for large projects.

As far as I know, Python doesn't have an application server container (ala Tomcat style), so that's out. Ruby (from what I've read; never used it) seems promising. Java has been around for years, so software companies that have been using Java for years have hopefully learned from mistakes. They'd have to re-learn from mistakes if starting with Ruby.

Of course, bad design and bad implementations can make a large project done in Java/J2EE fail miserably. But that goes for any language.

Re:What about LAMP (1)

Octorian (14086) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319522)

How about Zope [zope.org] ? Wouldn't that at least somewhat quality as a web application container for Python? (even if it is more application-specific than something like Tomcat)

Re:What about LAMP (2, Insightful)

GigsVT (208848) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319524)

There's no reason you can't write large maintainable apps in PHP. I maintain a 14,000 line PHP application, and I've never felt like the language had some fundamental flaw that made it hard to maintain.

Like you said, bad design and bad implementations are the reason for lack of maintainability, the language makes little difference.

Author's Thoughts on O'Reilly (4, Interesting)

TubeSteak (669689) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319290)

The book is roughly edited; you'll find yourself thinking "haven't I read this paragraph before?" in any number of places, but that's a disappointing experience I've had with several O'Reilly books of late. In many places he plays fast and loose, and almost at the end of the book he declares that he doesn't have time to learn these other languages in any depth -- although he has no trouble condemning the same languages in his rush to Ruby. Such a statement should be in the first paragraph of the book: "I've decided that I love Ruby, so I will condemn other languages without fully understanding them" (in one sentence repeated in a number of places in the book, for example, he declares that C# is no more than a clone of Java).
Not sure if it's worth reading the rest of his book review / article

Re:Author's Thoughts on O'Reilly (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14319345)

> he declares that C# is no more than a clone of Java Well yeah. What's your point?

In short, no (4, Interesting)

Serveert (102805) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319297)

I think that Real People are getting Real Work done while the flashy enthusiasts no longer have to toot the horn of Java.

Java is faster than Ruby and as bloated as it may be, there are a ton of J2EE applications you can purchase and modify to suit your own needs. Not to mention the plethora of development environments - hibernate, JMS, JNDI, torque etc etc. ROR is nice but let's get real - ruby isn't as fast and the few applications around ruby aren't nearly as mature as Java. Having said that I'm hoping Java will get opened up by Sun but I'm not holding my breath.

Re:In short, no (1)

porkface (562081) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319377)

Yeah really. Bruce ought to know better. I haven't heard Java enthusaists for 5 years now, but I see a lot of work getting done.

A Humble Note (1, Insightful)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319314)

Java is one of the first languages that was well planned and well designed with a theoretical basis in mind.

I can't think of many languages where this is true and that's why I think I'll always appreciate Java. It was a case where a practical computing technology was built after the theoretical studies were done.

It was a language done right and the first in this manner I could appreciate.

Re:A Humble Note -- Nonsense! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14319398)

LISP, 1960.

LISP practical? (1)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319444)

I also use LISP. But let's keep in mind that I said "practical computing." I probably should have included "object oriented" with practical.

Duly noted though, Paul Graham and company did a fine job on that language. I still enjoy using it in my AI classes in grad school. A very clean language but the topic at hand was Java, not LISP and I'm only 23 years old ... I think that makes Java a little more accessible to me than LISP.

Re:A Humble Note (1)

takev (214836) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319476)

This is one of the most funniest comments I've read, very british like humor.

Re:A Humble Note (5, Insightful)

timeOday (582209) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319504)

Java is one of the first languages that was well planned and well designed with a theoretical basis in mind.
I think you have to narrow that claim for it to be true:

ML has a deep, solid formal foundation with type safety and provable semantics.

Prolog has a foundation in inductive logic.

Lisp is based in lambda calculus.

SQL is rooted in set theory.

Now, Java may be the first commercially popular marriage of mainstream (C++) syntax which at least has provable type safety. That's a good thing in itself.

Re:A Humble Note (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14319515)

Is this a joke? What theory??

And to respond to your implication that Lisp is not object-oriented: it has 1) type inheritance 2) polymorphic operators and obviously 3) uniform syntax, why isn't it object-oriented?

Re:A Humble Note (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14319539)

this comment would have been much improved if you had also claimed that it was one of the first languages that could be considered aesthetically pleasing in its own right.

Best slashdot troll all day (4, Funny)

Rev.LoveJoy (136856) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319574)

*** Golf clap ***

Well done, sir, I salute you.
-- RLJ

Slashdot Libs (5, Funny)

AugstWest (79042) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319319)

(Slashdot reader) writes, "(Uknown pundit) wrote an article about (Technology that we're not currently fond of), based on conjecture and personal opinion. Does this mean that (Technology flavor of the month) is taking over?

Re:Slashdot Libs (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14319387)

Has anyone actually read the article? He is saying that it is a GOOD THING the "hyper enthusiasts" have left.

The very next sentence states: "...but instead they welcome the silence, because it's easier to think and work."

Re:Slashdot Libs (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14319421)

Bruce Eckel is hardly an "unknown pundit". Have you ever read Thinking in Java?

No (2, Insightful)

kevin_conaway (585204) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319339)

Stop posting fluff articles in the absence of real news before the holidays.

Java isn't going anywhere for a while. It is a fantastic language for large scale projects simply because its very easy to write maintainable code AND its buzzword compliant. That latter fact alone will keep it afloat years after it is truly dead.

Don't get me wrong, I love [sf.net] Python and I have really high hopes for it in the coming years, but to declare that "enthusiasts" have left Java, seems silly

time to make fun of them again (2, Insightful)

nate1138 (325593) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319343)

So, will the Slashdot collective make fun of them again when their latest platform du jour fails to live up to its hype?

They ALWAYS do ;-)

Not this discussion again. (4, Insightful)

FnH (137981) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319347)

Different problems, different solutions, different languages. As always, pick the right tool for the job.

ROR having (more) hyper-enthousiasts only means it's newer.

Where have all the good guys gone? (1)

randomErr (172078) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319356)

"Has the previous hype of Java and J2EE moved on to Ruby (on Rails) and Python?" Some of the people who have to be on the bleeding edge are at Ruby. It does a lot of stuff with minimal programming. Python has very solid segment, but its still and outsider, kinda like PERL. The rest of the coders are either at .NET or PHP. PHP is a great web language which is starting come out with some really solid desktop platforms (PHP/GTK comes to mind.) .NET does everything, web, server, and desktop and it keeps expanding every couple of years.

I personally prefer PHP. It flexible and is great for my personal project. But when I can write something in .NET in 5 minutes and have it execute on all the platforms I running, I sometimes have to make a deal with the devil and go with Microsoft. My 2 anyway.

Re:Where have all the good guys gone? (1)

Brandybuck (704397) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319548)

But when I can write something in .NET in 5 minutes and have it execute on all the platforms I running, I sometimes have to make a deal with the devil and go with Microsoft.

I keep hearing people say that .NET is cross-platform. I don't get it. I understand you can do some cross-platform stuff with Mono and dotGNU, but anything with a GUI is inextricable tied to Windows. Downloading and installing Sun's JDK just to run an application is a major pain, but at least it's feasible. Getting your GUI client written in .NET to run on my platform is impossible.

Don't plan the party just yet (0, Flamebait)

curtlewis (662976) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319368)

There are still a lot of companies, in their misguided foolishness, developing on Java technology. It was the buzzword so they jumped on the bandwagon. Nevermind a little common sense mixed with practical experience.

Nothing will make me happier than to see the piles of junk referred to as various types of Java technology fade from existence. The bloated, memory pigs that will happily do your garbage collection for you (sometime, maybe, perhaps, if it feels like it) sucked when they were first released and the suck fest just kept going. I will admit that java servlets did reasonably well, but there are other technologies that work just as well for that.

But it's going to be a long time before people learn to adapt and drop the dying technology. Those that do, will move on, those that don't wil move on to the unemployment line.

I'm looking forward to the Java is dead party myself!

Re:Don't plan the party just yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14319608)

Wow...bitter much? Completely miss the Java trend, and still stuck with old tech, or what? Who pissed in your cornflakes?

What is the appeal of Ruby? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14319369)

Is it the engine behind it or the semantics/style of the language.

Has the previous hype of Java and J2EE moved on? (5, Insightful)

plopez (54068) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319370)

Of course it has. IT actually is not too far removed from the fashion industry.

about 10 years ago:
Cast off those old tired relational databases! It's all object databases! It new! It's modern! It's chic!

C++? So passe'! The greatest thing is Java! So trendy, so fresh!

In the past few years:
Object databases are not with it! XML databases are the way to go! So modern! So *you*!

Now:
It's Ruby on Rails! What are you thinking using that dingy old Java! So... last season! Step into the 21st century!

etc.

The only thing I can think of which is more fad driven are diet books and management crazes (E.g. '7 habits of Effective Plan Z 2 Minute TQM EManagement iCommerce Gurus for Dummies (but were afraid to ask)').

Yet another reason to leave IT.

Re:Has the previous hype of Java and J2EE moved on (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14319585)

Hmm... an IT person bitches and moans about the chaotic nature of progress: multiple technologies from multiple sources over decades? Ooh, pain. Different viewpoints to consider? Oh, god no!

Does the poster believe there is One True Answer? Is the poster a mathematics major or something?

Grooooooooooooow up!

VB for the 21st Century (4, Insightful)

NutscrapeSucks (446616) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319371)

I hope nobody takes this the wrong way, but both Python and Ruby seem to be "VB for the 21st Century" -- as in tools to build quick-and-dirty apps without all that annoying type safety. In other words, they don't really directly compete with Java at all.

However, I don't think either have even registered at all in the commerical job market, so comparisons to Java are especially silly. As long as the Java programming market is so huge, there will be plenty of hype.

Re:VB for the 21st Century (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319596)

I assumed python was type safe? I keep telling myself to create some free time to learn python. I wanted to hack in it for the last several years but never got around to learning it.

VB is a bad language in general. the newest version is alot better and more modern. I heard nothing but good things about python and ruby (except for whitespaces in python). To me both seem alot more powerfull than vb and you can run mod-ruby and mod-python for apache to create webservices.

The problem with java even though I praised it in my other post is that it takes awhile to do anything simple with it. Java is still great for large ecommerce websites and I recommend it but pythonand ruby are nice for small apps, scripts, and even small sites that dont expect to become huge.

Not exactly true. (1)

MaXiMiUS (923393) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319394)

Sure, hype shifts -- but I really doubt people would just up and switch a language halfway through a project. Unless they have some sort of Java - to - Ruby convert-o-matic. I for one welcome our.. no, wait..

Nope. Still here. (2, Interesting)

Soong (7225) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319411)

PHP sucks, it's a lousy language with crappy syntax and barely existant error checking.
Python is an ok language but its interpreter is slow, and that's coming from a Java guy.

So, in summary, suck it, I'll keep writing Servlets for Tomcat.

It's gone to .NET (5, Insightful)

Brandybuck (704397) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319416)

Has the previous hype of Java and J2EE moved on to Ruby (on Rails) and Python?

No, the hype has moved on to C# and .NET. The religiosity people have towards Microsoft's semi-proprietary technology is definitely reminiscent of the 1990's Java hype. Especially among management (who think they've finally found the silver bullet).

I don't blame people for getting excited over .NET, because compared to MFC and traditional COM, it's a wonderful thing. But many people are going overboard on it.

It's gone to Mono. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14319540)

"I don't blame people for getting excited over .NET, because compared to MFC and traditional COM, it's a wonderful thing. But many people are going overboard on it."

Miguel agrees with you.

I don't need a drumbeat to follow (4, Insightful)

Matt Perry (793115) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319423)

leaving a significant contingent of Java programmers behind, blinking in the bright lights without the constant drumbeat of boosterism
As a Java developer I've never felt that I needed hype and "boosterism" to make me feel like I was using the "right language". Java is a tool. Where it best fit, I used it. Where it didn't I used something else. At work we use Java and we're quite happy with it. I think Java will do just fine without the fanboys.

Re:I don't need a drumbeat to follow (1)

kisrael (134664) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319545)

I don't know, I think the Boosterism is an important thing, because it influnces was platform choices are made going into the future. You can't always get hired on general smarts and ability to learn, so it's nice if you're reasonably versed in some of the hotter topics.

Nope. I will have another order of java thank you (5, Informative)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319424)

I am really just rediscovering Java now and the API's are very nice.

Java is stable, mature, and scalable, right out of the package. Python is nice for small projects and scripts but Java's strength is not the language. Its the api's and framework as well as the ton of third party software for it. For large sites Java is still the best way to go. Especially for ecommerce sites for businesses. Php is not there yet and is quite inconsistant with a immaturish feeling. Results vary drastically depending on who wrote what. There are tons of third party java objects and programs that co-exist and integrate with your java based servlets.

Java seems to have found its niche since multiplatform desktop applets never took off. Not to mention java is pleasant to debug and the tools are nice.

Re:Nope. I will have another order of java thank y (1)

bill_kress (99356) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319584)

I agree, but I think it actually IS the clean, consice, consistant language that makes it what it is.

Why do you think all those tools are written in Java?

Ruby (on Rails) and Python? (2, Interesting)

Omega1045 (584264) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319451)

Ruby (on Rails) and Python

I would imagine that .NET is gaining much more of the Java base of applications than Ruby and Python combined. That is no disprespect to those two fine languages. Microsoft wrote .NET to compete with Java, and that is exactly what it is doing. I am working on a project right now where the last version of the app was written in Java, and the new in C#. When interviewing for jobs a couple of years ago, I think I interviewed with at least 5 companies that were doing the same. This is hardly scientific evidence, but I have a much easier time believing that companies would switch from Java to C# than to other languages, if they are going to switch.

It's the compromise that is so important (4, Insightful)

0xABADC0DA (867955) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319485)

That's why Java has been so successful. It made a compromise between performance and ease. It made a compromise between compiled and interpreted. It made a compromise between local applications and applets. It made a compromise between easy-of-use and formalism.

C++, which Bruce used to love, made *no* compromises, except to run C code. It wanted to include anything possible as long as it was fast, and it did except that it was so freakin complicated that even to this day sometimes compilers can't interpret the source correctly. In the same way, Ruby (and Smalltalk) also do not make compromises. They say 'everything is an object' even though that means computations are 20x slower even after decades of optimization. They say 'no type checking' (if it acts like a duck it is) even though it is pretty much a necessity for large or reliable systems.

Regardless of the level of hype, the real world of programming is about compromises. It's about Java, and C#. Sure there will be plenty of work at the edges for Ruby/Smalltalk and C++/C, but Java-like languages will be the center of programming for decades yet.

time to move on (2, Insightful)

penguin-collective (932038) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319491)

I used to be quite enthusiastic about Java--it had a lot of promise when it came out. But I think Java has stagnated and it's time to move on.

What are the problems?

First, Java never turned into an open standard like C or C++. Initially, it looked like there were going to be dozens of independent implementations besides Sun's and Microsoft's, but they have all disappeared. The only way to run a compliant Java platform these days is with Sun's implementation or one of its derivatives (IBM, Oracle, Apple).

Second, Java is focused on niche markets; most of Java's real-world use seems to be in enterprise apps, a market segment that by itself is not enough to sustain a general purpose programming language (Java may well be the new Cobol).

Third, related to the above points, Java has failed to evolve sufficiently. Sun has failed to address concerns and needs of the scientific and numerical communities. And many of Sun's changes have been hampered by backwards compatibility with the JVM (e.g., genericity in Java 1.5 is deeply flawed). And Java never acquired a reasonable native code interface, keeping it out of many applications.

Java has made a valuable contribution by demonstrating to many working programmers that features like garbage collection, reflection, and runtime safety are useful, but those features are essentially 1970's technology. Sun has failed to evolve Java beyond that, and that's why it's time for other languages and other stewards to take over. Fortunately, there are many other excellent languages being created. The Java language itself (but not the platform) will probably be with us for a long time, although probably running in many environments other than the JVM.

Java had the potential to be a lot more than just a transitional language from C/C++ to modern, safe, reflective languages, but Sun unfortunately has failed to realize that potential fully.

Beware of any 'hyper-enthusiasts' (1)

digitaldc (879047) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319499)

did he actually do his homework on this particular topic, or will you be embarrassed in public if you use his explanation?

Most likely the 'hyper-enthusiasts' are suffering from irrational exuberance and therefore cannot be trusted. But it did sound marvelous during the explanation.

Buzzwords (1)

vectorian798 (792613) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319502)

Yes, Java is no longer the buzzword of the day, but that doesn't mean that it is obsolete, dying, or anything like that. This is (at least partially) highlighted by the fact that MS is aggressively developing C# and the .NET framework. Java has its own niche, and that's a different group than Ruby. As the article points out, some decisions in Java syntax (in J2SE) were made for efficiency's sake, at the slight expense of programmers' convenience - and different applications demand different tradeoffs. It is stupid to compare Java directly to Ruby or RoR, because only a portion of Java competes with it.

That being said, today's buzzwords seem to be RoR and AJAX, though I don't think either will be knocking any of the competition (completely) out of the picture.

With All Due Respect to Bruce E. (4, Insightful)

lonb (716586) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319518)

Most senior engineers I know do not get "hyper-enthusiastic" about anything. The gross majority (pun intended) of hyper-enthusiastic software folk are the softies... ya know, the guys who think VB is the cure-all or who don't have time to learn things in depth. When was the last time you met a true engineer who's primary fault was that they ALWAYS learn things in depth -- analysis paralysis is rarely top-down.

The bottom line is that the majority of programmers are bad programmers. These move to the easiest fad where the majority of people go. And that's not a horrible thing, it's just a thing most senior engineers don't care much about. Because, and I say this after interviewing tons and tons of developers, real devs dig deep on their own, and do not 'rely' on the work of others. And before I get flamed here, it's not to say they don't use the work of others, it's just that I've seen many seniors spend hours trying to figure out how something works, rather than spend two minutes asking for help.

p.s. I think Bruce Eckel is awesome -- "Thinking in Java" is rockin'

Golsing will shave beard (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14319526)

The old jolly guy will put his resume inside the shirts he throws to the audience next JavaOne.

Another Religious War (5, Insightful)

slipnslidemaster (516759) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319559)


Just another religious war.

C++ vs. Java
C vs. C++
C++ vs. Smalltalk
Lisp vs. everybody
Perl vs. PHP
Javascript vs. VBscript
VB vs. C++
Delphi vs. VB

Haven't we moved past this language is great but this language sucks yet?

You use the tool that will get the job done the best and easiest. If you tried hard enough, you could probably use the Lotus 123 macro language (showing my age) to write a web app, but would you want too? With someone of these languages, Python, Perl, PHP, Ruby, Java they are similar enough that they are all good enough for the same jobs. Languages are tools that programmers use to write applications. Personally, I like PHP and Ruby but I'm not knocking those that like Phython or Java.

Why knock that someone likes another language?

Why another religious war over Ruby vs. Java?

And the cycle continues... (1)

ErichTheRed (39327) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319581)

There's a difference between "what's cool" and "what's used by businesses." I've seen this same boom-bust-settling-down cycle for many other programming languages. The truth is that there's a lot of Java and J2EE code out there now, some of it running very critical things. The key to being a successful developer seems to be constantly learning each new fad while maintaining at least some skillset in the "classics".

I can definitely see why Java has lost some of its appeal. The high memory requirements for all but the most optimized code are one reason, and the fact that many corporate datacenters are standardizing on Intel Windows/Linux/Whatever boxes make its portability less important.

Say what you want about Visual Basic, but as a primarily Windows admin, I can tell you that some of an organization's most important software tools were cobbled together in it. They may not be pretty, and may be a huge pain to maintain/support, but that's our lot in life.

Fundamental computer science (2, Insightful)

cryfreedomlove (929828) | more than 8 years ago | (#14319590)

I still use java every day but I will not miss the hyper-enthusiast. I've interviewed and hired people to work in java for years and I've learned a few things along the way. First, I've never hired someone who has obtained the official Sun Certified Java Developer status. I've learned that these guys have memorized a lot of the java library api's but their judgement is not grounded in the basics of computer science. For example, they have no idea how to choose between using a LinkedList or an ArrayList. The presence of LinkedList is redundant to the superior abilities of an ArrayList in their minds. I've been much better off hiring solid computer science generalists for java jobs whether they currently know java or not.
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