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229 comments

FRISTY PSOT!!!!! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14347211)

FRISTY PSOT!! !!! Micro$o$$ cant buy theze for theyre $-box!!!!!

Re:FRISTY PSOT!!!!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14347328)

Wow. I did it. I finally grabbed one. yay!

1st (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14347216)

1st

Re:1st (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14347704)

Actually I was first :) LOL OWNED!!!!

Great! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14347234)

I will try it as soon as I bought a XBox360!!!

Oh wait... This article is about the XBox360...

You almost had me :-)

Not suprising... (5, Insightful)

Ruff_ilb (769396) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347238)

But -

Won't we have demo disks released soon enough? I doubt OXM, among other publications, will pass up on making demo disks.

Besides, can't demos and media be downloaded from Xbox Live as is? I didn't get my hands on a 360, but this is what I've heard.

Re:Not suprising... (3, Informative)

pjh3000 (583652) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347269)

They're out now! The January 2006 issue of OXM has a demo disk that works on both the original Xbox and the new Xbox 360. Probably possible because they both use different file extentions for the default file.

Re:Not suprising... (1)

Rectal Prolapse (32159) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347270)

Someone could modify the code on the demo executables themselves and get an exploit in that way. Any thoughts?

Re:Not suprising... (1)

Ruff_ilb (769396) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347320)

Regardless of where the demo comes from, it's going to be hacked.

Also - Is there protection on the OXM demo disk?

Although - We all know this is a moot point. The Xbox 360 will be hacked, cracked, modded, etc, no matter what happens. This is simply expediting the inevitable.

Re:Not suprising... (1)

Rectal Prolapse (32159) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347550)

I later read that the executables themselves are probably signed...so I guess it won't happen any time soon!

Re:Not suprising... (3, Interesting)

irc.goatse.cx troll (593289) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347683)

All you need is a buffer overflow in some signed code and you can jump to your unsigned-loader. There are ways around this of course, but gaming hardware cant really take that kind of speed hit on execution time.
I think phantasy star online for the dreamcast was the first major buffer overflow, which persisted in the gamecube version. Then there were the memory card savegame buffer overflows, and many more.

Re:Not suprising... (5, Informative)

SScorpio (595836) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347309)

From what I saw on the magazine rack, OXM is already offering a disk with playable Xbox 360 demos. What is getting the hackers excitied is that the files on the demo disk are not encrypted, and they are signed to boot from seemingly any type of media. This disk can is going to be used by hackers to determine how the 360 authorizes a game to be booted and with what kind of media. They can know figure out what signals are different and produce a modchip that will allow backups to run. This is the second step in opening up the 360 to run any code. The first was figuring out the format files are laided out on the disk with, and this was cracked and reported on earlier.

Re:Not suprising... (5, Informative)

matth1jd (823437) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347346)

There have been demo disks circulating for sometime (also media check free). So while these demo discs may have no media checks that doesn't mean that the executables are not signed.
 
As I understand it the media check basically lets the 360s hypervisor know what media the executable is allowed to run from. Demos do not have these media checks as they may be downloaded and run from the hard disk, or run from DVD.
 
Obviously only signed code was intended to be run on the machine, the absence of a media check does not mean the executable isn't signed. In fact anyone would be incredibly naive to think that the executables were not unsigned.

All in all I don't think we're any closer to modding the 360. This hacker group also released an Xbox 360 iso extraction tool which amounted to nothing. It turned out that any of the existing Xbox iso extraction tools could do the exact same thing. It's just alot of smoke and no fire.

Re:Not suprising... (2, Informative)

matth1jd (823437) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347433)

Obviously only signed code was intended to be run on the machine, the absence of a media check does not mean the executable isn't signed. In fact anyone would be incredibly naive to think that the executables were not unsigned. That should read : In fact anyone would be incredibly naive to think that the executables were not signed.

Re:Not suprising... (0, Offtopic)

PierceLabs (549351) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347545)

Okay mods, how can someone correcting themselves in their own post be trolling, yet the original post be marked insightful?

Re:Not suprising... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14347610)

This is Slashdot.

Besides, someone has to protect you from attacks on yourself! (Or... or something like that.)

Re:Not suprising... (0)

mdman (846276) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347611)

I was thinking the same thing!! Whats with the mods here at Slashdot! They are completely biased, and sometimes it seems like they dont read the posts at all! WTF slashdot?? is there no responsible reporting, or modding here at all?

Re:Not suprising... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14347641)

Because it was two different moderators. It still baffles me that the second post was considered a troll, though, since it isn't insulting or attention-whorish.

Re:Not suprising... (2, Insightful)

Ruff_ilb (769396) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347800)

They probably thought someone ELSE was trolling by correcting the parent's post.

Re:Not suprising... (2, Interesting)

apoc06 (853263) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347535)

yes the executables were probably signed, but in making copies you still have a copy of the signed exe, what stops media from directly running is the media check. normally, if its not the official format, if the dummy sectors are absent and the filesystem is correct, or if its not the official media of MS, it still doesnt run the code. its traditionally a three way check. thats not the case here though. here two parts of that are missing.

whats really important here, is to know that games can be run from different sources; its not limited to a certain form of media. therefore you can run from a backup copy of your disk, or possibly even a harddrive. microsoft probably enabled the drive to accept any form of media disk [at least for certain titles like this] just in case they DO decide to move ahead with the HD-DVD drive. by the time they started manufacturing x360s the HD-DVD spec wasnt even done; thus they probably enabled this to future-proof the console, if they ever decided to change their minds and release hd-dvd versions of games or interactive media.

Re:Not suprising... (1)

matth1jd (823437) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347578)

I agree that it's important to know that games run from multiple sources and that the media check doesn't need to be present for an executable to be run. Still need to be able to execute unsigned code though - or figure out how to sign executables for there to be a soft mod.

Re:Not suprising... (1)

mrchaotica (681592) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347925)

Yeah, but making [backup... right?] copies of signed programs (e.g. commercial games) is only half the battle. They need to figure out how to run unsigned code anyway, because that's what allows community-written software (e.g. Xbox Media Center) to run.

Re:Not suprising... (1)

Ooter (741986) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347416)

The impressive part of this news is not that there are burnable demo discs, but that the burned disc is in fact bootable. Since the Xbox 360 uses essentially the standard xbox filesystem which the hacker/modder community is more than familliar with, the ideas is that this demo disc can be 'hacked' to allow booting of custom, unsigned code. If this is the case then two things become true: 1) Homebrew will live on the xbox 360. Get ready for custom media players, emulators, xbox linux etc - all the great things that have come to be on the original xbox can perhaps come to be on the 360. 2) Piracy will live on the xbox 360. Get ready for the ability to 'backup' your favorite games. #1 is good for the community, #2 is not, but c'est la vie.

Re:Not suprising... (1)

matth1jd (823437) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347450)

Of course it boots.. the executables are still signed and therefore allowed to run.

Re:Not suprising... (1)

Ooter (741986) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347634)

I wouldn't say of course. Retail game images have been ripped - those executables are signed when they get ripped as well, but those discs don't boot when you burn them...

Re:Not suprising... (1)

assassinator42 (844848) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347865)

Can anyone who has a 360 tell me if the Full Auto demo is available in the market place? Why don't they have all the released demos on Live for free?

Lucky for Microsoft... (1)

parasonic (699907) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347240)

This has happened before too too many 360's have been released. They're going to want to protect their investments. I'll bet that they will release some sort of copy protection very shortly just as Sony released the PSP firmware update.

Re:Lucky for Microsoft... (4, Interesting)

Ruff_ilb (769396) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347259)

And this is where the online capabilities become a mixed blessing. Just as users can download media, MS may be able to sneak in a DRM-esque update without the users knowing it. I'd be suprised if that didn't happen, in fact.

Re:Lucky for Microsoft... (2, Interesting)

pjh3000 (583652) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347310)

Yeah, just wait 'til Sony puts an Xbox compatible rootkit on the latest crap-rock CD.

Of course they'd probably ge sued out of existance...

Re:Lucky for Microsoft... (2, Interesting)

Ruff_ilb (769396) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347341)

Sony V. Microsoft: DRM rootkits on a MS console. Would be an interesting clash.

Of course, that's if they WEREN'T working together.

Mod Parent UP (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14347644)

Parent deserves karma points just as a dog requires biscuits to operate. (?!??!)

Re:Mod Parent UP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14347666)

Parent deserves karma points just as a dog requires biscuits to operate. (?!??!)
 
Better idea...Mod this Funny

Re:Mod Parent UP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14347789)

HAHAHA. fp

No DRM == license to copy freely? (-1, Offtopic)

Junior J. Junior III (192702) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347246)

I submit that if the DMCA is a valid law, then the inverse, (eg, lack of DRM protections on media) should constitute free license to copy and distribute the content in any way, shape, or form desired.

Re:No DRM == license to copy freely? (4, Informative)

CableModemSniper (556285) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347291)

The DMCA makes it illegal to circumvwent the protection. Copyright infringement is still illegal on top of that. Creating/using DeCSS violates the DMCA, but copying the DVD is copyright infringment. The DMCA is "evil", but just because people don't protect something technologically doesn't mean you should have the right to copy it willy nilly.

For personal use, yes I should (1)

tkrotchko (124118) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347459)

"but just because people don't protect something technologically doesn't mean you should have the right to copy it willy nilly."

If I buy a game, I should have the right to make a backup so I don't worry about the original being scratched. I don't really have that option right now, so I watch in horror as my son just casually tosses around $50 game disks.

It shouldn't be that way, but it is.

Re:For personal use, yes I should (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347710)

You could always bittorrent ISOs of your favorite games, pre-cracked and ripped down to a DVD5. Granted, it's not precisely legal (they're modified copies) but it's not precisely illegal, either...

Re:For personal use, yes I should (1)

tkrotchko (124118) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347930)

I thought doing that required you to modify your console; not something that I'd like to do.

Re:No DRM == license to copy freely? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14347687)

Fuck the DMCA!

Re:No DRM == license to copy freely? (1)

DA-MAN (17442) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347750)

First, IANAL. That said

The DMCA makes it illegal to circumvwent the protection.

There is an exception for compatibility. For example Asterisk PBX has a reverse engineered Skinny protocol, this is ok because it is done for compatibility. If this boot loader is used for running custom code on a personal x-box this would not be illegal even under the DMCA.

Copyright infringement is still illegal on top of that. Creating/using DeCSS violates the DMCA, but copying the DVD is copyright infringment.

Copying the DVD is illegal but not a prosecutable offense. The Fair Use doctrine makes personal copies legal. Downloading an image from BitTorrent or other things would be illegal.

DeCSS violates the DMCA. Before the DMCA it was still illegal because it stole decryption keys from the DVDA (not to be confused with double vagina, double anal). Although I believe that was only protected via trade secret, so it may no longer be elgible for protection at this point now that it is not a secret.

The DMCA is "evil", but just because people don't protect something technologically doesn't mean you should have the right to copy it willy nilly.

I disagree. You have the right to copy your personal stuff nilly willy for personal use. You do not have the right to copy other peoples stuff nilly willy.

The DMCA is evil though!

Re:No DRM == license to copy freely? (4, Insightful)

nwbvt (768631) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347304)

Does the existence of hate crime laws means I am free to kill other white guys?

Re:No DRM == license to copy freely? (1)

vertinox (846076) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347684)

Does the existence of hate crime laws means I am free to kill other white guys?

If someone kills white guy, does it make it ok to pass hate laws discriminating against all non-white races? Even if they were innocent and possibly the white guy was killed by another white guy?

In theory this is how DRM works.

Everyone is assumed to be a criminal.

Re:No DRM == license to copy freely? (1)

nwbvt (768631) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347829)

I didn't get a thing you said until I read your sig:

Using analogies to compare the Internet with real life is like trying to rationalize the universe with a bag of marbles.

So you were trying to make a paradoy analogy. Ok, but I think my post was still valid as it was intended to be more sarcasm, not an analogy.

Re:No DRM == license to copy freely? (5, Insightful)

taskforce (866056) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347331)

No, it just allows you the fair use you were originally granted before the DMCA was put in. Copyright law still applies to everything you get, it's just that unlike making a backup of a CSS protected Video DVD, you can make a backup of this unprotected demo disk beucase you didn't have to break encryption.

However, becuase of the very nature of this disk (restricted kiosk) it is unlikely that 99% of people will be able to make backup copies of it under fair use.

Re:No DRM == license to copy freely? (1)

ch-chuck (9622) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347409)

Sure, just like if someone does not lock up their valuables you're free to take all you want. </sarcasm>

Re:Double standards (1, Offtopic)

vertinox (846076) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347869)

Sure, just like if someone does not lock up their valuables you're free to take all you want.

In reality, if your insurance company finds out you didn't lock your doors or take precautions against theft, they won't write you a check for your loss.

If I could break a rule here about analogies, if I make a juicy delicious steak and and put it out on my table and I leave my door open and my neighbors dog comes in and eats it... Who can I blame for my lost steak?

I could blame the dog, but that is what dogs do... They eat meat, just like a theif steals things. I can't teach the dog not to eat my food because it isn't my dog. I can beat it myself, or call my neighbor and have him punish it, or I can go the extreme and call the pound and have it dragged away.

However I'm still out of a steak because I didn't have my door closed. It doesn't make the dog right, but obviously it benefits you to suck it up and protect yourself and stop using "other people aren't supposed do bad things" as an exscuse to not put forth the effort of protecting yourself.

Guess what? You don't have control over other people when they do bad things. You do have control over yourself and how much of those bad things will affect you. Understanding that will go a long way.

Re:No DRM == license to copy freely? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14347965)

No, it means that the original law applies. Just as American laws would reference British common law if there wasn't an American one on the books, the copyright battles reference the original laws that keep getting appended and added to. The Fair Use law lets you make the backup copy, but the DRMC says you can't break encryption to make your copy. In your example, the original law or "common law" makes thieving a crime. The new law, or DRMC-analogue to your robbery analogy - it would be a specific crime to break the lock on your valuables, just as it's against the DRMC to break coding for copying.

One more demo surfaces (0, Redundant)

yottabite (921008) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347247)

Looks like someone beat me to the punch on this article - I will say that another demo disc has also surfaced, let's see if they can find the difference between the two maybe?

And let the games begin (5, Interesting)

EvilGoodGuy (811015) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347253)

Now they just have to figure out how the demo disk becomes playable, use it as a boot disk, and poof, free games for everyone. :) I might be buying a 360 sooner than I thought...

Re:And let the games begin (1)

AyeRoxor! (471669) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347283)

Now they just have to figure out how the demo disk becomes playable, use it as a boot disk, and poof, free games for everyone. :) I might be buying a 360 sooner than I thought...

Exactly. I have a feeling that this may be the first leak in the XBOX DRM 'dyke'...

hehe... dyke...

For the people who don't want to read (1, Redundant)

guruevi (827432) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347257)

Quote from the article:

SELF BOOTING XBOX 360 EXPERIENCE KIOSK DISK

Team PI have done it again! YES YOU CAN BURN THIS ISO AND PLAY IT IN YOUR XBOX-360 - they call it the big m$ muck up. Team Pi leaves you with this Pillow statement:It seems Microsoft was in such a hurry to get this stuff out that they forgot to set the media protection on this disc. This leaves hackers with the posibility to hack around with this disc that load from a normal DVDR5 backup.

        quote:

        *** YES YOU CAN BURN THIS ISO AND PLAY IT IN YOUR XBOX-360 ***
        Microsoft left us with this blanket statement:

        Xbox 360 retail kiosks have started arriving at retailers. Due to the nature of the distribution process, not all kiosks are hitting simultaneously, but are continuing to pop up in retailers across the country in the coming weeks.

        The kiosks are designed for a retail environment and feature game samples, game trailers and product information. Team Pi leaves you with this Pillow statement:

        It seems Microsoft was in such a hurry to get this stuff out
        that they forgot to set the media protection on this disc.
        This leaves hackers with the posibility to hack around with
        this disc that load from a normal DVDR5 backup! - Team Pi
        also notes that the all datafiles on this disc isn't signed in
        any way, and will allow for extensive modification for producing
        exploits to further our efford to hack this box!

        Playable (hackable) games on this disc: Call of Duty 2, Hexic, Kameo, King Kong. Also includes lots of game and accessory demos in video format.
        Nothing ripped, just foreign videos were downsampled to fit onto a normal DVDR5!

        YES you can run this! Burn the iso, put it into your xbox and be very amazed... Next, think of the posibilities of hacking this little demo disc that we might start running code on the retail xbox 360's ! :)
        So the second task is done. We hope this encourages all hackers, coders and crackers out there to take up the challenge. Enjoy!

        Special note to the Clear kids: Yes, we are old and lazy, and no, we are not going to do some scene war against you. Life is too short for that, and our dicks are allready large enough :)

        Keep up the hard work!
        Pi Putting the 360' Spin on the Xbox :-)

The above was taken from the nfo file of the release Experience_Xbox_360_Kiosk_Demo_SELFBOOTING_READNFO _PAL_DVD5_XBOX360-PI.

Re:For the people who don't want to read (-1, Troll)

ThePolkapunk (826529) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347370)

Ummm, your subject is "For people who don't want to read" and then you have a bunch of lines of text. Did you post it with the intention of people not reading it? If so, why? Perhaps you should've put a subject of "For people who don't want to click on the link" or "For people who's firewall blocks them from accessing the article."

Or perhaps it should've been labelled "Karma Whore"

Re:For the people who don't want to read (1)

johncadengo (940343) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347969)

They sure seem full of themselves for a team of people who sat around a computer and opened up Roxio EZ DVD Creator and clicked "DVD Copy".

Good or bad...? (1)

creimer (824291) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347262)

... no media protection and therefore it will run on the Xbox 360 ...

A bug or a feature? You can never be sure with Microsoft...

Re:Good or bad...? (1)

apoc06 (853263) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347435)

microsoft has made absolutely NO attempt to deny how they are closely following their competitions strategies. to that end... if they see potential to copy a concept im sure they will. they are highly aware that the ability to easily use swap methods with the ps1 and ps2, the mod and gamesave exploits for the original xbox, and the homebrew potential of the psp are major reasons for sonys' systems to sell like hotcakes, maybe this could be an underhanded effort to get "the scene" interested in cracking the x360. once they get the scene interested, the word of mouth will further their hype machine.

look at how everyone was abuzz with news of homebrew available for the [v1.0] psp in japan, and everyone was waiting with bated breath for the us version [1.5] to be cracked as well. it could be that MS is trying to follow suit, and look the other way as the pirates offer free advertisement.

HDLoader! (2, Insightful)

gcnaddict (841664) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347285)

Well with the successes the hacking community has had lately, I wouldnt be surprised if we see an HD loader for the 360...

I want HDLoader!

Re:HDLoader! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14347457)

HD Loader isn't quite quite as absolutely wonderful as most people make it out to be. I have found numerous games don't work with it. Plus, the disc keeps spinning even after the game begins. If you don't take it out you're likely to end up with a hard drive loaded with games you can't access.

Quite an achievement... (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14347289)

Quite an achievement making an ISO of an unprotected DVD.

We all bow down to the superiority of the hacking skillz of said release group. I am composing some ASCII art of a very large penis in your honor that you can use in your nfo file.

Re:Quite an achievement... (4, Insightful)

b1t r0t (216468) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347359)

The achievement is not the ripping of the ISO. The achievement is finding out that this disk will boot when burned to a plain DVD-R.

The first step in breaking the Dreamcast was finding a loophole that let it boot from plain CD-R.

Re:Quite an achievement... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14347398)

How hard could that possibly be? Step one: Pop disk into computer. Step two: Copy disk image to harddrive. Step three: Downsample videos to reduce image size. Step four: Burn image to blank disk. Step five: Pop burned copy in Xbox.

Re:Quite an achievement... (0)

jcnnghm (538570) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347682)

You do realize it's MUCH more complex than that. With the original Xbox, disc copies were streamed from the Xbox to a PC because the Xbox disc drive spins backwards.

I believe to get disk images they've written custom firmware for a DVD drive to make ripping possible. Bottom line, getting an image is not trivial. Step one: know what you're talking about.

Re:Quite an achievement... (2, Funny)

pswayze (893054) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347754)

Perhaps you're thinking of the gamecube. The Xbox spun the normal way (unless maybe you lived in Australia?) and didn't require any custom dvd firmware.

Re:Quite an achievement... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14347887)

Gamecube spins the right way but goes from outside -> in and not the normal way....

Re:Quite an achievement... (3, Funny)

yottabite (921008) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347465)

You still have to hand it to them, they did, after all, commence dumping the discs to ISO's a lil while ago all on their lonesome. Also they had the kindness to let us all know of the slip-up, and publish the ISO for people to play with. That said, this isn't really a flame-war I'm trying to start. I don't even HAVE a penis :D

Re:Quite an achievement... (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14347549)

Would you like to share mine? ;)

Re:Quite an achievement... (3, Funny)

lysergic.acid (845423) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347951)

No penis? Well, since there are no girls that read Slashdot, there's only one other possibility... you must be one of those eunuchs I've been hearing so much about.

No media check doesn't mean the code isn't signed (1, Insightful)

Shaolyen (941688) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347297)

Although this is interesting news, the lack of a media check certainly doesn't mean the code isn't signed.

No exploit here... move along (5, Interesting)

rminsk (831757) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347307)

The executables as still signed. It is common for supporting data files to be un-signed. The executable usually does a hash check on its datafiles to make sure they haven't been messed with. It seems like everyone jumps on every little thing about the inner workings of the XBox 360 as a major exploit. The sensationalism is just getting boring.

Re:No exploit here... move along (1)

krunoce (906444) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347422)

What's so hard about disassembling and "skipping" the hash check?

Re:No exploit here... move along (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14347477)

What's so hard about disassembling and "skipping" the hash check?

"The executables are still signed."

Re:No exploit here... move along (2, Insightful)

matth1jd (823437) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347478)

That would cause the executable to no longer be signed, and the system would not allow it to run.

Re:No exploit here... move along (2, Insightful)

b1t r0t (216468) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347436)

The executables as still signed. It is common for supporting data files to be un-signed. The executable usually does a hash check on its datafiles to make sure they haven't been messed with.

All it takes is one buffer overflow in an executable reading a corrupted data file (which will probably be verified with something less than MD5), and this could be turned into a "boot key" allowing the loading of arbitrary code... at least until Microsoft uploads a patch to everybody locking out the executable if you don't have a demo unit. Since this is a demo disc, that means a lot less people can complain if it stops working. Only the few who never hook their 360 up to the network, and never run games which force an upgrade, may have a chance of running hacks in the future.

Re:No exploit here... move along (1)

psavo (162634) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347788)

All it takes is one buffer overflow in an executable reading a corrupted data file ...

Umm. Do you really think that IBM's Power -architecture doesn't have NX flag?

Re:No exploit here... move along (1)

sampspoon (813521) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347460)

they resized the movies to fit the dvd9 iso on a dvd5. they don't ever hash check files on run time due to the fact that it'd take way too much time. at most they do a checksum on the executable which is non-existant in this iso...

Well... Sorta.. (1)

Chordonblue (585047) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347496)

Creating a boot disc is the first step into a much larger world. Thus is was with the Dreamcast, so it appears to be with the Xbox. The major difference is the fact that the Xbox' BIOS is malleable at MS's whim so even if an exploit works for a while, there are certainly no guarantees with a software solution like this.

No, you move along (1)

brunes69 (86786) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347548)

You are not supposed to be able to rip *any* 360 game and play it off a burt DVD

The fact that you can do this means with this demo DVD means that all any group has to do is figure out *why* this is (what the relevant section of bytes is), rip out the needed bytes, and use it to bootstrap the 360 to run any burnt game or app they please.

Trust the Honor System (1)

Trolling4Columbine (679367) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347446)

We all know that news like this is great for people who want to make legitimate backups of their games. Freeloaders and Warez kiddies would have nooooo use for this whatsoever! No siree!

basic grammar (0, Offtopic)

nudnikmeow (846945) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347447)

The disc contains playable demo's on the disk such as Call of Duty 2, which could also be hackable, as PI speculates.
Since when do we use apostrophes to indicate plurals???

Grammar Nazi Time (1, Flamebait)

feijai (898706) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347458)

[sigh] One of the worst violations in a while.
The disc contains playable demo's on the disk such as Call of Duty 2, which could also be hackable, as PI speculates.

  • Apostrophes indicate ownership or relation, not pluralality.
    • I enjoyed the demo's playability.
    • The disc contains playable demos.
  • "Disc" is a less-used variant of "disk". You can use either, but for God's sake, be consistent within a single sentence.
  • "The disc contains playable demo's on the disk..." Welcome to the Department of Redundancy Department.
  • "...which could also be hackable, as PI speculates." Why exactly is as there? It'll only be hackable while PI is speculating? It's hackable in the same way that PI speculates things are hackable? What the hell? Oh, you meant... ...which, PI speculates, could also be hackable.

Said properly:

The disk contains playable demos--such as Call of Duty 2--which PI speculates may also be hackable.

Re:Grammar Nazi Time (1)

lampiaio (848018) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347514)

Apostrophes indicate ownership or relation, not pluralality.

must be hard to be a grammar nazi... there's a plurality of details to care about!

Re:Grammar Nazi Time (1)

dancingmad (128588) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347558)

Disc isn't less used. "Disc" usually refers to optical media, such as DVDs, CDs, Gamecube discs, and MDs. Disk usually refers to floppy disks, hard disks, etc.

Though your point remains correct, that the sentence needs remain consistent.

Re:Grammar Nazi Time (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14347676)

Apostrophes are also used for contractions as in this case. Demo is short for Demonstation and Demo's is short for demonstrations. :)

Does Microsoft fund these guys? (4, Funny)

Animats (122034) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347495)

They're redistributing Microsoft marketing materials. Usually, you have to pay a PR firm to do that.

Not that exciting (3, Insightful)

lord_sarpedon (917201) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347603)

The media protection and signing are very different things. The executables are still signed and from that cannot be modified. However, they can be played on a variety of media, burnable media included. The files themselves, to my knowledge, are not signed or checked. That would open the door for simple map mods or similar as seen with the Halo series. As for code execution, not likely. The hypervisor as well as other checks are in place to prevent the most common forms of attack. It would take some clever doing to get the good old fashioned gamesave exploits of yesteryear on this new platform ;) Realize also that there isn't much anything preventing authors of demo discs from setting the media flags...this was more likely than not a mishap.

Protected disk and/or executables (1)

thallgren (122316) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347656)

It seems they made it possible to boot from ordinary CD/DVDs, but with the requirement that the executables are signed. Don't know if that was intentional or not, but if it was I can see how nice it will be to pull down game demos and burn them.

I hesitate to buy an expensive game without trying the game for a while.

With this capability high-quality games with demos out will convince reluctant buyers like me to try and probably buy.

Brilliant!

Re:Protected disk and/or executables (1)

Shano (179535) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347820)

Given that it's possible to boot from a DVD-R, I would fully expect the system to be as follows:

The 360 checks the media type (hard drive, DVD, whatever), and also the executable. The executable contains bits specifying what types of media it can run from. Since it's signed, it isn't feasible to modify those bits - until someone cracks the DRM scheme, of course.

This allows companies to release freely distributable (but still signed) demos, while the full game can still only be run from the original disk.

You still dont get it do you guys? (3, Interesting)

AzraelKans (697974) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347752)

MS doesnt make their money just out of selling games (and I seriously doubt they LOSE money on each Console sale as they claim) they make a lot of money out of selling XDK's and licenses to publishers, the more people owning the console, the more publishers will want to port their games to it. Piracy and hacking is a surefire way to make the console available to those who cant afford or are unwilling to buy the games at their current price (not just in America but worldwide) besides they CANT clone the console just the games themselves so they have to buy the console anyway and MS knows that, thats why they have never been too severe with piracy or hacking (contrary to sony who is basically sinking PSP by doing the oposite.. and not releasing too many games either), do you actually believe they havent noticed there are groups doing great dashes and even homebrew games on their console using warezed xdks? entire companies dedicated to mod chips?

Do you think is just a big coincidence they released UNPROTECTED demos and games, which can easily be compared to PROTECTED ones by pro hackers?

They are not stupid you know? (at least not that stupid)

Yet IMO it would suck to own a modded or hacked xbox 360 since you wouldnt be able to log to xbox live which is a big part of the 360 deal.

Re:You still dont get it do you guys? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14347846)

huh?

Re:You still dont get it do you guys? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14347929)

Not as stupid as you, at least.

Re:You still dont get it do you guys? (1)

Premo_Maggot (864012) | more than 8 years ago | (#14347941)

... They ban you on Xbox Live if they detect any hardware changes like mod chips, larger hard drives, etc.
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