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Oracle and Sun Team Up to Provide .NET Alternative

Zonk posted more than 8 years ago | from the other-white-meat dept.

Databases 335

segphault writes "Ars Technica has an article about the new partnership between Sun and Oracle, designed to provide an alternative to .NET." From the article: "According to Ellison and McNealy, their mutual goal is the production of a complete Java-centric enterprise datacenter architecture that leverages Solaris 10 and Oracle's Fusion middleware. Designed specifically as an alternative to Microsoft's .NET technology stack, the new platform is competitively priced and based on robust frameworks."

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frist psot (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14472776)

frsit spsot!

the truth finally comes out.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14472849)

that java is inferior to .NET.... Only took sun 5 years to acknowlage it...

C# 3.0 is your God like the US-dollar! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14473070)

C#-3.0 is the SQL-killer embedded into C#-3.0.

I'm processing terabytes of Platinum Information Technologies with C#-3.0!!!

I've a RAID5 of 20 hardisks!!!, 500 GB each!!!, total 9 TB!!!

Re:C# 3.0 is your God like the US-dollar! (1)

slashk (519084) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473107)

i kinda kicks ass, actually
i can't believe they actually added lambda functions to the language!
for those of you who know lisp/scheme/xml, you might recognize some of the syntax

and someone even hooked up WMI as a provider.
someone else hooked up WinForms as a provider as well :-0

and it sure beats EJB 3.0 Entity Beans

the alpha's a bit buggy though.

it's supposed to RTM with Orcas sometime late this year.

Team work (0, Offtopic)

Beuno (740018) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472777)

Big names just keep on teaming up to beat down Microsoft.
How long will they be able to resist this?

Isn't this what EJB was supposed to be (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14472783)

i thought EJB was supposed to be the .NET competitor

Re:Isn't this what EJB was supposed to be (2, Insightful)

slashk (519084) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472832)

yes, but EJB was designed by a committee and turned out to be a complete misfire.
that hasn't stopped people from using EJB, though, and for some even liking it - remember that ignorance is bliss

people have used it because they were told that it was the right thing to do
however, in doing so, they have suffered serious productivity losses

if you notice, .net does not have an equivalent to EJB - just doesn't exist
why is this? IT REALLY IS AN UNNECESSARY TECHNOLOGY! for many reasons.

and if you look at EJB 3.0, it is so completely different than EJB 2.0, it would be hard to compare them

why, you may ask - EJB was done by a committee lead by IBM and Sun, with less than knowledgable engineers.
this is NOT a troll - i know this for a fact, have spoken to them,
and have heard them admit it was a mistake.

as you can tell, i have an issue with EJB or any crap technology 'standard' that is delivered to the general public as the right thing to do.

Re:Isn't this what EJB was supposed to be (1)

sbenj (843008) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473079)

Right, except a bit harsh, I think. EJB has lots of flaws, things that people have pointed out over the years, and it certainly wasn't all that simple or transparent. While better things have come along over the last few years, I think that some of those, at least, reflect the lessons people learned from EJB, and the reactions to it (too heavyweight, too obtrusive, too much of a hassle to configure, to slow....) .I think banging on them too much is a bit of monday-morning quarterbacking. What would you have designed for a persistance framework in 1999?

I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it unnecessary, more like, it set out to solve problems that were bigger, or at least different, than the problems people had to actually solve most of the time.

As for the knowledgeability of the engineers, I've found that it's an easy temptation to fall into as a developer to think that you're smarter than everybody else (can't they see how much better your idea is than theirs?)

Re:Isn't this what EJB was supposed to be (2, Informative)

slashk (519084) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473186)

a bit harsh, probably.

but, they had this pie in the sky idea that EJB would become an enterprise component model for distributed computing.
Session beans were designed to be kind of a modern day CORBA implementation, in fact using IIOP as their wire level protocol.
Entity beans were designed to be a kind of coarse grained persistent component model.
And for 1999, it was a novell concept.

What people ended up trying to do with them is create web applications.
Entity beans were used, often poorly, as a general OR mapping system, which is a tough way to go.
Session beans were used occasionally for remoting, but mostly for either state tracking or state sharing.
Both Entity and Session beans are almost always used locally, hence their introduction of the Home interface.

EJB as an enterprise component model, where applications achieve this SOA style architecture never happened.
Internally, IBM product devisions agreed on EJB as a communications platforms for integrating their applications. This never happened.

IBM's push for this made the EJB specification process very political.
For example, IIOP was pushed as the wire level protocol so it would support legacy C++ CORBA implementations. However, I don't know of any J2EE application that communicates with a C++ CORBA app over IIOP. I'd love to hear if there are some out there.

I'm not saying I had a better solution at the time, but when it did come out (and I knew several people on the original EJB committee), I felt it would not achieve its goals.
My take on it then was XML on the wire, XML as an IDL, with pluggable transports. Yes, even in 1999, some of use were doing this!
But, this is basically what we see with SOAP/WSDL.
This has turned out to have it's own limiting issues, though.

Personally, I would have provided very minimalist interfaces for a lot of this. Then, I would have allowed someone else to take the arrows.
Heck, .NET is only now planning to release a persistence framework, after literally thiking about it for 2 years, and it hasn't seemed to affect their market share.
And they took 6 years so far to build WCF (indigo).

In any case, 1 more interesting note.
I had the opportunity once to corner some of the J2EE leads and architects at day long private meeting at Sun.
Their response was basically apologetic, although the architects were really hung up on JDO. Marketing told us that they have devoted 99% of their efforts to Web Services.
Furthermore, we were told that the Java group is being put under the manager who really pushed Solaris to where it is now, and that in time Java/J2EE should being to improve.

I have a lot of interesting Sun/Microsoft stories, actually, but those are for another day :-)

Re:Isn't this what EJB was supposed to be (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14473255)

Great Summary -- EJB was pretty obviously designed to solve IBM's (and their customer's) legacy systems issues. What never made sense is why Sun got behind it and pushed it as a non-legacy application architecture.

Re:Isn't this what EJB was supposed to be (1)

grrrgrrr (945173) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473136)

As I understand it EJB does some things very nice and transparent like distributed transactions.. I see programmers were i work that do not know wat distibuded transactions are and probebly just hope for the best but some aplications need things like that and all aplications are probebly better of doing the right thing.

Re:Isn't this what EJB was supposed to be (1)

slashk (519084) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473215)

point is that .NET and many other technologies can do distributed transactions without and EJBish thing. actually, it is JTA/JTS that makes distributed transactions possible. EJB just allows you to remote your transaction with remote invocations, which is very very rare.

Geeez (0, Offtopic)

matr0x_x (919985) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472784)

It's like the fall of the Roman empire - when everyone is fighting the same corporation it's tough even for the biggest corporations to hold ground

hilarity (3, Interesting)

BitterAndDrunk (799378) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472791)

Since Oracle Applications is still driven by ActiveX controls.

As is their AIM methodology.

In fact, Oracle Apps downloads are unsigned, untrusted. You have to open the browser (and it must be IE) pretty dern wide to use it.

Re:hilarity (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14472896)

Are you running version 8 or something? That is not my experience on version 10 or whatever version my company is running.

Re:hilarity (1)

Threni (635302) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472912)

More hilarity:

"SAP believes that they can modernize their applications without changing them. They keep writing programs in a language called ABAP [Advanced Business Application Programming], which is a 25-year-old proprietary language not related to Java.

It's 25 years old, for gods sake! And it's not related to Java! You say it like it's a bad thing! Guess I'd better stop using C then.

What's flavour of the month right now?

Which version? (1)

MosesJones (55544) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472934)

The reason I ask is that most people seem to use the Java front-end or the HTML front-end. I haven't seen people use ActiveX at all with eBusiness Suite or Oracle database....

Just checking the install that I have... yup that just uses Java as well.

I can't find ActiveX anywhere on the various Oracle products I've got installed at the moment.

Re:Which version? (2, Interesting)

BitterAndDrunk (799378) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472987)

Yes, it's all java. I should have been more clear - the JRE 1.1.18 that Oracle Applications will download is triggered by an ActiveX control.

As is the entire AIM (Application Implementation Methodology) suite.
The eCommerce suite (CRM, iStore, iSupplier Portal, et al) avoids this issue entirely, as would an alternate method to download the JRE. But the "standard" implementation of Oracle Apps wil require opening the security settings wide like I said.

Correction to above post (1)

BitterAndDrunk (799378) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473002)

As respondents have posted, it's the JRE that uses this control scheme. The actual application is java based.

But AIM is still ActiveX so the original point halfway stands.

Funny in many ways (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14473122)

I was laughing since .NET still seems to be merely a J2EE clone (and Java a C# clone) so I thought all along MSFT was copying/parodying Oracle and Sun.

So does this make this new project a parody of a parody of J2EE while LAMP platforms contine to do the real work in the world?

Pricing... (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14472795)

"the new platform is competitively priced"

What!? I remember when Oracle and Sun charging was based on how much money fell out your pockets when they turned you upside down and shook you.

Seriously though, an alternative is nice, but isn't that alternative already here and called Java? I suppose a nice end-to-end branding a-la .NET wouldn't go amiss, but what's the point? Sufficient technologies already exist out there to do what they're trumpeting as new...

Re:Pricing... (5, Interesting)

Debiant (254216) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472936)

I think It's not just about technology, but about user end and development support.

If I compare Java and .NET, I must say I think it's right now much easier to do things with .NET .

I'm not talking about being platform independent, robustness or things directly related to merits of some programming language or enviroment, but more about how many potential people have access .NET technology.

For example, VB programmer may with some training be able to move his old VB code's business logic to .NET server. Same goes to C++ programmers. Even Java developers may find C# much more intresting than Java, because it pretty close but still diffrent(and not with a negative way). In a way .NET is a culmination of many programming languages, and that way looking far ahead of Java where you can only 'plug in' with Java only.

Besides Microsoft with it's traditional method, is trying to support .NET much as it is possible.

So I can understand why Ellison is trying to do what he is. as he sees that .NET has much synergy. More I look .Net, more I've started to wonder why it has been so overlooked.

It's coming fast, where I'm looking at it.

Re:Pricing... (3, Insightful)

malraid (592373) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473059)

I wouldn't say that .Net has been overlooked. .Net is mostly popular with MS centric developers, people that mostly used VB o VC, not so much with Java people. Some Java developers might be tempted to look to what C# has to offer, but at the end of the day, both are only tools. You can build great or crappy programs in any language. Large enterprises that have lot's of J2EE code WILL NOT swtich to .net, simply because J2EE has delievered, while .Net still has to prove to be as robust as Java. Java used to be sexy back in the 90s, now it's the new COBOL.

Re:Pricing... (2, Interesting)

OpenServe (885833) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473246)

So I can understand why Ellison is trying to do what he is. as he sees that .NET has much synergy. More I look .Net, more I've started to wonder why it has been so overlooked.

What is truly mind boggling is the apparent conclusion that Java's correct "answer" to .NET is anything but a heavy embrace of open source. (Apache/LGPL style) The only way to match the growing "synergy" of .NET is to work from the grassroots up and not look only at the "big iron" markets. While lucrative, they can not yield sufficient growth for the Java platform. .NET is not just an enterprise datacenter solution -- it's a unified desktop/server/mobile/web platform and as such it is very much "embrace and extend." The areas where Java is weakest are on the client side and this is where .NET has / will have it beat hands down unless drastic changes are made. Java Desktop was a good initiative but it hasn't gone nearly far enough. At this point, I'd have to put my bets on open source Java projects as the true saviors of the language. (even as pioneers of fresh approaches not designed by committee.. think EJB2 -> Spring/Hibernate -> EJB3) This is not to say Sun and Oracle lack a significant market in the high-end, but theirs is also a niche compared to the whole landscape .NET is going after. If they don't expand their horizons and embrace open source in the low/mid-range markets, the high-end niche could shrink as .NET marches forward on both hype and shiny new technologies.

If anyone from Sun happens to be reading this, please don't overlook where .NET is going with UI technology. Swing/SWT/JSF came too late and are inadequate in comparison to upcoming .NET XAML/WPF. Nevertheless, XAML is not perfect and there is still an opportunity to leap-frog ahead of it before it gains too much traction post-Vista-launch. Now would be the perfect time to tear down the popular image that Java is good for the server but awful for client-side.

Re:Pricing... (0)

NemoX (630771) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472970)

I agree. Java IS the alternative. They just need to improve a few areas:
1. Web applications - why would someone pay $20,000 for a java app program to run on top of a web server (i.e. websphere, jrun, etc.). They need an easy, cost efficient web application part that is identical to their client GUI.
2. They need to improve the performance of the GUI, and the creation thereof (i.e. easier creation in an IDE).

Re:Pricing... (0)

Asprin (545477) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473202)

Java?! Why can't Sun come up with a java compiler that can target freakin' Mono?

This misses the point (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14472802)

.NET is not just about enterprise datacenter, but mainly about the next generation of client software. .NET is at the core of the windows vista API. So in order for sun to compete with .NET, they would have to improve the client side support, e.g. Swing.

Re:This misses the point (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14472821)

Swing is terribly ugly and slow. Try wx4j [] - a Java Binding for wxWidgets - instead and enjoy the native widgets with their normal speed.

Predictions (-1, Flamebait)

Caspian (99221) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472814)

MS is going to crank up their FUD machine to full blast once they finish formulating their strategy to counter this. Prepare for the death of Sun.

Call it "doom and gloom", but I can't see MS taking this sitting down. I'm rooting for Sun, but I don't think they have the power to take on MS this directly. :/

Re:Predictions (1)

twiddlingbits (707452) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472960)

ROTLMAO..The last time Sun took on MS they WON. Or have you not been around long enough to remember the Java battle? The part I don't get is the Oracle Middleware, Sun has a whole set of Java Services that can function as middleware and even integrate with .NET to provide Web Services. This seems to be taking money away from Sun's software group.

Re:Predictions (1)

slashk (519084) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473012)

i wouldn't root for sun.

they've attempted man times with much fanfare to unleash some new technology onto the market - usually with a resounding dud (java chips, jini, jxta, java desktop to unseat MS)

their latest concept of utility computing is based on the assumption that the evolution of computing will mirror the evolution of power grids in civilized countries.

their open sourcing of their flagship product, solaris, smacks of desperation, when confronted with the linux/dell threat.

the new java enterprise system seems pretty weak - how many developers do you know who have downloaded the newly openned source code yet?

java as a platform is moving slower than a snail.
i met with once with one of the j2ee managers, and his explanation for their slow evolution of java was its 'industrial inertia'.
they shipped the J2EE/Java 2 combo before it was complete, and promise backwards compatibility back to Java 1.0, so the platform is being deprived of necessary upgrades in order to maintain compatibility with previous versions.

so, at this point, as sun's market valuation decreases, their relevance does too.
they are beginning to take desperate measures, and this may include seeding the market with inferior, but ridiculously cheap technology in order to fend off competition.
this is in leiu of high quality technology which requires more time and money than Sun has.

they were backed into a corner, and they failed to find a way out.
it's a shame, because they once had the time, money, marketshare to do anything they wanted.
they just kept playing the same ridiculous hand.

BTW - recall how Java was created.
Jim Gosling was going to quit Sun because he felt they lost their ability to build software, so Scott M. spun off JavaSoft.

Again, Sun lost it a long time ago.

Re:Predictions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14473058)

Ugh, why is this modded flamebait. MS FUD is a fact.

Mono? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14472819)

I thought Mono is (will be?) the alternative to .NET.

Re:Mono? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14472881)

Mono IS .Net, n00bface.

I'd give it a shot (1)

TubeSteak (669689) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472824)

If it isn't a resource hog.

Hopefully they'd put some effort into making sure it is at least as secure as .Net

Re:I'd give it a shot (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14472991)

You'd "give it a shot if it isn't a resource hog"? I guess your job must involve making purchase decisions for enterprise-grade software at a large corporation...or you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, one of the two.

Re:I'd give it a shot (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14473084)

If it isn't a resource hog.

Dude... it's Java. Fat fucking chance.

That's funny... (5, Funny)

ltwally (313043) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472827)

"...the new partnership between Sun and Oracle, designed to provide an alternative to .NET. ... Designed specifically as an alternative to Microsoft's .NET technology stack..."
That's kinda funny, 'cause here I was thinking that .NET (which is only a couple of years old) was the alternative to Java (which is 10+ years old).

Re:That's funny... (1, Insightful)

timeOday (582209) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472978)

You have to wonder where Java might be right now if they'd gotten EJB and AWT right the first time!

Re:That's funny... (-1, Troll)

Ulrich Hobelmann (861309) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473003)

What's funny is that a .NET program compiled on Windows still doesn't run on any other platform, like Unix or Mac OS. It won't run on Mono, either, because some Windows .NET APIs are patented, and because there is no single set of libraries for GUI and other stuff that is cross-platform.

Re:That's funny... (1)

Lauritz (146326) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473024)

Have you ever tried?

Re:That's funny... (1)

CableModemSniper (556285) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473102)

I have. It works for at least "Hello, world!".

Re:That's funny... (2, Informative)

msloan (945203) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473101)

Yeah, you're just plain wrong. A wide selection of apps will run on mac OS/linux.

Same binary code, and as long as you stay within the System namespace you should be fine. True if you use some external dll that pinvokes things (only supplying methods for windows), or you pinvoke things yourself, its not cross platform. However it's generally bad practice to pinvoke things yourself, and many libs that use PInvoke provide cross platform solutions.

No cross platform solution can really be perfect, especially when the platforms are made by seperate organizations.

Re:That's funny... (1)

hackstraw (262471) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473045)

Another insightful post mismodded as funny.

The real funny thing is that the article is a cross between an anti-Microsoft flame and another newsvertisement.

TFA also says, "Both companies have lost a lot of relevance in the modern world, where cost-effective open source software and disposable commodity hardware reign supreme."

Oops. That is the meat of the article. Its hard to keep stock prices up when you are "loosing relevance" in your area of doing business. Stock plot here [] .

Offtopic, but I have to know. I am not a stock or money person. Is it normal for stock graphs to have a logarithmic y axis in terms of dollar amount and percentage by default? I thought that both money and percentages were linear. I understand where log transforms of data are important for things like perception in hearing and many other things, but does this make sense to some money guru out there?

Re:That's funny... (1)

NewbieProgrammerMan (558327) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473227)

IANAMG but exponentials pop up in some financial applications, like the value of an investment with reasonably constant annual return over a long period of time. On a linear plot, all but the most recent behavior is crushed into a nearly flat line because the value rises (roughly) exponentially; however, on a log plot it's easier to see the long-term behavior.

For example here's the Dow Jones Industrial Average for ~80 years:
Log: =l&q=l&c= []
Linear: z=l&q=l&c= []

The ugliness of the crash in the 30's is essentially invisible in the linear plot, but clearly visible in the log plot.

Re:That's funny... (1, Informative)

BarryNorton (778694) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473072)

That's kinda funny, 'cause here I was thinking that .NET (which is only a couple of years old) was the alternative to Java (which is 10+ years old).
Come off it, look at the core .Net technologies (before they were re-branded): COM (implementing the multiple interfaces per object idea without multiple inheritance) predates Java, ODBC predates JDBC etc. etc.

Re:That's funny... (2, Informative)

skraps (650379) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473095)

Sorry, I'm as big a Microsoft fanboy as any, but this is just wrong. .NET and COM are completely different. COM is basically a convention for interoperating between C/C++ programs. .NET is its own virtual machine and set of languages. ODBC may be similar to JDBC, but that has nothing to do with .NET! .NET uses something called ADO.NET, which is nothing at all like ODBC.

Some odd reason (2, Interesting)

hsmith (818216) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472830)

I don't see the Oracle solution being cheap... But who knows!

err wtf?!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14472836)

I mean HELLL-O?!!


J2EE??!!!! (2, Insightful)

Schnapple (262314) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472915)

Oh but you see J2EE, Java, Eclipse, etc. - they're not obliterating .NET and Microsoft like Sun would have hoped. So instead of beefing up their offerings and maybe fixing whatever is keeping them from "taking down" Microsoft and .NET they're going to do something "new" - because otherwise, they'd have to explain why J2EE didn't do it.

Re:J2EE??!!!! (1)

jcaldwel (935913) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472984)

J2EE only addresses server-side applications. Their biggest flaw was that the early specifications were needlessly complex. EJB 3.0 addresses that flaw perfectly, IMO.

How does Eclipse fit in with this? (0)

kt0157 (830611) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472840)

Err.. Am I missing something? Can't this be done with the Eclipse platform?


Re:How does Eclipse fit in with this? (1)

Dan-DAFC (545776) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472994)

Maybe it would fit in on the development tool side of things if it weren't for the fact that Sun has nothing to do with Eclipse, it's IBM's baby. Even Sun's notoriously stupid marketing department wouldn't call a Sun product 'Eclipse'. And given that name, Sun are unlikely to ever get involved even if they wanted to (which they don't). Expect to see Sun pushing the improving NetBeans platform as part of this offering.

Re:How does Eclipse fit in with this? (1)

kahei (466208) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473071)

I actually laughed out loud, but after about a second I realized you were serious.

I admit, it is a little unclear how a product can be a 'datacenter platform' and also a '.NET competitor', given that the two things hardly overlap at all.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was really a set of Java wrappers for Oracle Fusion, bundled up for Solaris 10 to create a one-step solution for getting a datacenter going. The weakness of such a product would, of course, be that it has Fusion :)

Proprietary (4, Insightful)

trollable (928694) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472842)

"According to Ellison, this is all about providing users and developers with technology based on standards. But what standards is he talking about, and are those the standards that consumers care about? The availability of an open source .NET implementation based on ECMA standards certainly makes Java look more proprietary."

The whole JDK1.5 API is public and totaly available to be implemented by anyone ( Also there is already a 98%-complete implementation of it ( OTOH, only a small part of .NET has been proposed to the ECMA, which is not even a standard organization. Mono provides only a small subset of .NET.

(that said, the most used Java Platform (Sun) is still proprietary)

Re:Proprietary (1)

slashk (519084) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472895)

not a standard organization?

what is oasis?

i know a few people on the oasis committees and they never seemed very standard. in fact, they seemed a bit sub-standard.

Re:Proprietary (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14472956)

You think JCP is a standard organization? JCP is owned and operated by Sun.

ECMA is a standards body. ISO is also a standards body. The C# language and the CLR are both standards under both standards bodies. Granted, the standardized CLR is not as extended as the .NET framework that is available from Microsoft, but it includes everything required to construct the foundation of the framework. Unstandardized portions include Windows Forms, Windows Management, COM+/MTS, ADO.NET and ASP.NET, which are fairly proprietary in general. Mono has their own extension libraries, including GTK#.

It is absolutely hilarious to see Oracle and Sun have to band together like this. When JDK 1.5 was released, while it was painfully obvious, Sun never bothered to mention that they were attempting to catch up to .NET (and if you think they weren't, you have some serious fucking denial problems.) If anything this is Sun and Oracle noticing that their babies have competitors with bite, enough so that the existing offerings aren't enough to compete directly.

Well, good luck to 'em both. Sun and Oracle both do create some good products, but largely they are little more than producers of rhetoric. This is especially true of Sun who has been sitting on the gold-mine that is Java for over a decade without a fucking clue what to do with it. Neither of these companies "get it," and I doubt they'll learn anything important from this soon-to-be-failed venture.

Re:Proprietary (1)

ichin4 (878990) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472995)

Mono provides only a small subset of .NET.

You are welcome to go one all you like about how you like the Java standards story better than the .NET standards story, but you really need to stop making this demonstrably false claim about Mono's API coverage.

As you can see here [] , Mono covers about 98% of the v 1.1 (Everett) framework, which is what most shops still use. This is comparable to the JDK 1.5 implementation you just touted!

And as you can see here [] , Mono already covers about 90% of the just-released v 2.0 (Whidbey) framework.

And of course, these statistics leave out all the LDAP, GTK, CORBA, and other Unix-centric APIs that are in Mono but not in the .NET Framework.

As a sysadmin... (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14472844)

As a sysadmin, I work with a plethora of applications, systems, integrators and vendors. We run everything: AS400, PHP, J2EE, linux, windows, perl, oracle, db2, postgres, mysql...I could go on, and on. Windows bashing aside, Java is the only technology that's "advanced" enough to break itself. I can literally run some of my perl scripts over and over until the cows come home...or leave my cisco routers up for 700 days...or reboot linux til I'm blue in the face and it's always predictable. When they fail, there's some reason: Disk space, upgraded software, user error, low memory, gamma rays, etc. Java is not that way - java has a mind of its own doesn't need an excuse to not work 1/1000 times.

My point here is that I feel for the people who will be administering this system - all of those sleepless nights troubleshooting transient failures with no fixes or even causes. Oh well, they made their bed, I suppose.

Re:As a sysadmin... (3, Informative)

SimplyBen (898147) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472924)

I'd have to 100% disagree with you here. "java has a mind of its own" is an extremely ignorant statement. While the quality of many java applications is below acceptable, critizing the virtual machine and its related frameworks and apis from the perspective of a systems adminstrators is doing nothing but spreading FUD. Java has several advantages that the majority of other technology stacks lack. That advantage is choice. This being said it is a double edged sword. Don't like writing SQL? Use hibernate, toplink, iBatis, torque, OJB, castor or about 20 other functionaly similar technologies. The main problem imho with java is to write an end to end application you have to be proficient in a breadth of technology stacks. With this choice comes responsibility which in many cases leads to failure.

Re:As a sysadmin... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14472940)

Java is not that way - java has a mind of its own doesn't need an excuse to not work 1/1000 times.

I guess that's why so many financial institutions and government software systems [where failure is not an option] are Java EE-based...

Then again, as a systems administrator who likes writing Perl scripts, I'm sure your opinion on Java's stability is 100% valid.

Re:As a sysadmin... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14472992)

Could you give us an example of this?

Re:As a sysadmin... (1, Informative)

twiddlingbits (707452) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472996)

Java by itself doesn't "BREAK". Applications that are poorly written BREAK. Some application crashes CAN crash the JVM and you lose all your Java apps but if you need 100% uptime there are ways to configure the JVM to deal better with the errors. You could also look into some of the newer operating systems such as Solaris 10(Containers, Predictive Self-Healing, DTrace tool), or virtualization. Modern Java servers such as Websphere/WebLogic can be setup where one flaky program only kills one instance of the JVM, all the other JVMs and thier programs continue to run just fine.

Re:As a sysadmin... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14473117)

Some application crashes CAN crash the JVM and you lose all your Java apps

Wow, I didn't know that. That's piss poor.

Re:As a sysadmin... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14473234)

This is pretty much only going to happen if something goes nutty in JNI, at the OS level. .NET and everything else is just is much if not more vulnerable.

Re:As a sysadmin... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14473157)

Some application crashes CAN crash the JVM and you lose all your Java apps...
I hope you're not implying that this is acceptable, since it would be roughly analogous to saying that some operating system (Win*, for example) being taken down by an application is acceptable. And we all know that's not acceptable here on /. ;)

Re:As a sysadmin... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14473029)

I hear you brother. The crashes are a monster PITA too because its never too clear if its the app, the universe of frameworks, the VM or the OS. Complexity has a price.

imitation... (4, Insightful)

Swamii (594522) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472856) the sincerest form of flattery.

Rather than teaming with Larry Elliscum, a better move for Sun would be to open Java up to the ECMA/ISO for standardization.

Re:imitation... (2, Funny)

nacturation (646836) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472917)

Rather than teaming with Larry Elliscum, a better move for Sun would be to open Java up to the ECMA/ISO for standardization.

I'm sure that's on ISO's to-do list, but they're waiting to receive the standards documentation for PHP. :p

What, like Office 12 XML? (4, Insightful)

WebMink (258041) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473218)

Rather than teaming with Larry Elliscum, a better move for Sun would be to open Java up to the ECMA/ISO for standardization.

Why exactly would that help? Right now the Java standards are open to input from a wide range of voices, from individual developers through open source communities like Apache to corporations like Oracle and IBM. No voice has overall control, no-one can force through self-serving capabilities and everyone gets to use the specifications royalty free. All of them know their contributions can be implemented as open source yet that the market in which they operate can't be monopolised by any single company.

Sun started ECMA standardisation and then realised half-way through the process that it was going to produce the worst of all worlds; a rubber-stamp for the work Sun had done, with no input from any communities and a freezing of the specs by the ECMA dinosaur, combined with a loss of the ability to enforce the Java trademark and an inevitable embrace-and-extend by companies like Microsoft and IBM. Sun should have worked this out before starting with ECMA but fortunately realised in time and pulled out of the process. The result was the creation of the JCP and the most open, competitive software market the computer industry has yet seen.

Microsoft fully understands the PR value of ECMA and is cynically using it to rubber stamp it's Office 12 XML format to undermine the openness of OpenDocument. That action has done us the good service of showing us just how intellectually bankrupt ECMA actually is. What the Java platform needs is not the destruction ECMA would bring, but rather the further evolution of the JCP, which is working better than pretty much any standards body before it and is only hampered by the public perception of Sun control.

fix java or give it up to the community (4, Insightful)

slashk (519084) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472868)

i for one am sick of dealing with classpaths and 250 jars inside of jar files inside of war files inside of ear files - catch my drift.

i'm also sick of J2EE containers with class loaders schemes that are more complicated than my senior year algebraic structures course.

build a linker into java just like .net has, and something like a GAC.
than allow versioning of libraries.

then get rid of checked exceptions so i don't have to do try/catch/wrap/rethrows(or do nothing) in 90% of my J2EE code.

then get rid of stateful, local session beans - how redudant is that???

then find a way to get rid of the 14 million defines i need in my server.xml to specify which implementation of each 'open, standard' interface i need

so, java as a language - it's ok
java as a platform - SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

left java for .net after 6 years of dealing with Sun's bullcrap and i have never looked back.

Re:fix java or give it up to the community (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14473013)

Sorry you got modded a troll. I happen to agree with everything you said.

Re:fix java or give it up to the community (1)

slashk (519084) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473019)

thanks. i was kind of surpised by that.
kept it mostly factual.

how does one get marked a troll anyway - somebody at slashdot or other readers?

Um... (2, Flamebait)

msimm (580077) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472889)

No? Why would I be interested in another .NET lock-in project. Open would be news, but this just sounds like more crap to tag onto my tech budget that could be done with any number of existing technologies.

Re:Um... (1)

NewbieProgrammerMan (558327) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473033)

I expect this really is semi-big news for those that may need extra ammo to get management to buy off on using Oracle & Sun products where they're appropriate. But I do agree that Sun and Oracle are definitely hoping to tag something onto a lot of people's tech budgets. :)

No thanks (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14472929)

So I'm supposed to trade a solution written by a company with a maniacal leader for a solution written by TWO companies with maniacal leaders? No thanks.

.NET in the data-centre.... (2, Funny)

MosesJones (55544) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472946)

So the world's largest database vendor is paring up with the world's largest big server provider as competition to Windows and .NET?

Sounds like Microsoft joining up with Dell to compete with Apple on the desktop.

Re:.NET in the data-centre.... (1)

Redwin (805980) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473167)

Sounds like Microsoft joining up with Dell to compete with Apple on the desktop.

Don't they already?

There allways has to be balance in everything (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14472963)

Even in software industry. If SUN feils somebody will do it somewhere, look what happeneds with Ruby on Rails? They remind me on famous swordman Miyamoto Musashi that is cutting great software gigants with its light framework.

To be honest, I expect that Sun and Oracle will do great thing but their strategy has to be very focused to practical solutions and usable product, not to their sales.

read my mind (5, Funny)

bcrowell (177657) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472964)

Y'know, I was just saying to myself, "Self," I said to myself, "you really need an enterprise datacenter architecture that leverages middleware based on robust frameworks." Wow, they must have been reading my mind!

OK (0, Offtopic)

Dunbal (464142) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472973)

the production of a complete Java-centric enterprise datacenter architecture that leverages Solaris 10 and Oracle's Fusion middleware.

      I realize this is offtopic, but I wonder if anyone would have understood the meaning of the above sentence as little as 50 years ago... :)

Re:OK (1)

cyber-vandal (148830) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473163)

Or even 20 years ago. In fact I barely understand it now.

J2EE... we need a change (2, Insightful)

Gunark (227527) | more than 8 years ago | (#14472975)

Lets hope this means they're going to do something about J2EE. Between Enterprise Java Beans and Java Server Faces, J2EE is a sordid mess right now.

Competitive pricing? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14473010)

You mean free? Because .NET is free (and so are the tools to develop with it).

That's the whole problem many of these "competitors" have. They price themselves out of the game (*cough* QT *cough* Opera *cough*).

Get your facts together (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14473056)

So now Sun is taking on .NET and they're teaming up with Oracle for it ? What a load of nonsense. According to Sun themselves [] the whole partnership is almost entirely based on Oracle choosing Solaris 10 as their preferred platform. You can read more about that here [] .

IMO some "reporters" only read what they want to read. Sun already has Java and it has got quite a big foothold to last. Solaris 10 is also kicking some serious ass. Why on earth would they want to directly confront a company like MS when they can easily expand their own market and slowly strengthen their position ? IMVHO the big competitor for Sun is Linux at this time. Something clearly displayed when looking at Novell which almost immediatly started "OpenSuSE" after the release of OpenSolaris. Coincedence? I wonder...

This step has IMO nothing to do with .NET, and if you take the effort to skim the Sun news articles I'm sure you'd conclude the same. What about this: Linux with either MySQL or Postgres vs. Solaris 10 with Oracle, or MySQL/Postgres if you so prefer. And all based on almost the same price / options.

Utopia? Then why is Oracle also jumping on the "opening up some products [] " bandwagon ?

No, I don't think MS has much to worry, Sun is targeting another audience here.

Re:Get your facts together (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14473112)

You really believe that Oracle will drop Linux?

Re:Get your facts together (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14473190)

Why so narrow black/white minded ?

Yes, I believe that they will if there's more money to be made. Just like I think they'll drop Solaris if there's more money to be made on Linux.

This is how Sun should promote Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14473064)

GNU Classpath [] , has completely implemented over 98% of JDK1.4 and is building steam. Most packages are now 100% complete, and momentum is building.

GNU Classpath, Essential Libraries for Java, is a GNU project to create free core class libraries for use with virtual machines and compilers for the java programming language.

More discussion is here [] .

Re:This is how Sun should promote Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14473090)

GNU/Java still sucks donkey dick at this time. And if you're right about having more than 95% done then I think its going to be a major dissapointment.

Don't believe me? Then try to follow the Sun Java tutorial [] and try to compile one of their easier Java examples (no, "HelloWorld" doesn't count). You'll notice that in many cases it compiles cleanly, but when you try to execute it it'll barf with a lot of exception errors.

Being a Java newbie myself and running Debian this had me baffled for an hour, also because I made some manual modifications here and there. After trying to compile an exact example and seeing it crap out on me too I finally installed the Sun JDK for Linux and used that. Guess what? No problems what so ever.

So if you claim they got it done for over 95% now (I really wouldn't know the exact numbers) then I think the whole project totally stinks.

Oh darn... (0, Offtopic)

TrappedByMyself (861094) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473093)

Java-centric...competitively priced and based on robust frameworks

I thought this was going to be an article about Spring, Hibernate, & PostgreSQL

Java frameworks: Which are good for web apps? (1)

Jesus_666 (702802) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473231)

Concerning that... I have a few questions and maybe someone here might want to help me by bashing/hyping something.

I'm a CS student (still doing the foundation courses) and one of my courses is a one-year software project. We have to design and implement a replacement for an online bibliography. As the CS department is somewhat Java-centric we have to do it with JSP (or pure servlets, if we dislike JSP for some reason). That by itself is not much of a problem, although Java might be a bit heavy for a site getting about twenty unique hits per day... What bugs me is that we're forced to use MySQL; alternative databases like Postgre are not allowed for some reason. If you want to tell me how exactly this is going to make my life worse, feel free to do so (this is the bashing part).
For example, does MySQL support a transaction log? I thought something like this might be useful in case Bad Things(TM) happen to the database (support for it wouldd also look nice on our feature list).

If you feel like hyping something, I'd appreciate it if you could enlighten me on frameworks which might be useful in the development of a web application. My main concern is reducing development time as that's the resource we have the least of.

Dot Java Programmers Wanted! (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14473096)


5+ years Java, J2EE
4+ years Microsoft Dot Net
4+ years Sun Dot Java
3+ Internet Explorer Programming

** Attention to detail
** Likes to work on mulitple projects simultaneously
** Excellent communication skills (written, verbal and other)
** Must be able to work 50+ hours per week
** Up to 90% travel
** No benefits!

Mod down article. (-1, Troll)

HellYeahAutomaton (815542) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473111)

This article is flamebait.

Why another alternative for .NET (0)

guruevi (827432) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473146)

Why another alternative for .NET? We already have LOGO, Pascal and Basic.

Of course if you want to become more advanced than .NET, you could start using Cobol or Fortran

If you want to outsmart .NET developers, learn PHP, Python or Perl

If you want to outsmart AND build faster/better/less buggy/stable software with datacenter/airfare/military specs you should get to start on C, C++ or Java.

Re:Why another alternative for .NET (1)

renrutal (872592) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473198)

"If you want to outsmart AND build faster/better/less buggy/stable software with datacenter/airfare/military specs you should get to start on C, C++ or Java."

Not wanting to sound like Captain Obvious, but some people really need to be reminded of this:

It's the coder who makes a faster/better/less buggy/stable software with datacenter/airfare/military specs, not the language.

A bad software comes from unskilled coders(and/or from projects with bad management), not from languages other than your favorite one.

Who needs Sun ONE, when you can have Sun ZERO! (1)

abelikoff (412709) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473156)

Here we go again, two firms absolutely unfit to compete against Microsoft in their products' price/performance, one basically in its death throes, the other one continually losing the market to the SQL Server... What a great duo! I'm sure they will come up with a real .NET killer. At least this time (they sadly have been failing this task on several noble attempts).

Seriously, I doubt world needs yet another infrastructure (even assuming this one will be Java-based). The only thing that I see happening by this effort is further discrediting of the Java technology, which after all those years still cannot provide an enterprise infrastructure compelling to developers (the hodge-podge of Struts, Spring, JSF, etc. only makes things worse).

Last but not the least, let's go back to the basic question and ask ourselves "cui prodest?" I see what Sun has in it, yet I fail to see what benefits Oracle is supposed to realize for it. Oracle is not a player in this field. Speculation and rumors may fly high but it will be interesting to observe the real motives of Ellison in this case.

Mono is Already a Serious Alternative (1)

illectro (697914) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473170)

Mono [] is a more complete environment than any open source version of Java has ever managed - Miguel et al have done great things - now even commercial products like imeem [] are using it for their data center and Unix ports.

Microsoft Alternative? (1)

Austin Milbarge (723855) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473180)

Man, it seems everyone in the world is trying to make alternatives to Microsoft's wares. First off, the above article does not explain how Java is going to somehow provide an alternative to .NET. Java has been around for a good 10 years and I don't how the involvment of Oracle is going to magically revive the language. .NET has been around for less than half that, and already is taking over Java. Why?

Very few have managed to do is what Microsoft has done for years. Make software and software development easy to use! Ease of use for the computer user and just as importantly, ease of use for the developer. As a developer who has worked with C/C++ C#, VB and Java for years, I've found all but the Java language to have had a well designed and programmer friendly development environment. Java has tons of IDEs out there and they all pretty much suck.

Programmers are people and people are inherently lazy. Lazy in the sence that people don't want to go out of the way if they don't have too. In programming terms, a good IDE can make all the difference. Microsoft doesn't always create the best technology but they make it friendly and thats why they sell. I've been waiting years for alternatives to Word, Access, Visual Studio, and Windows and I haven't seen it yet. In my opinion, if Sun and Oracle are going to try and make a .NET, alternative they should be focusing on an easy to use and powerful development environment. The Java language is powerful enough. Now it's time for a useful IDE.

Burn Out (1)

Ftizzle (661598) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473199)

In astronomy class they said the sun wouldn't burn out for a few billion years. It looks like teacher was wrong. First of all .NET was the Java alternative. Sun has been inept at managing Java. .NET should never have been a serious alternative to Java. With .NET Microsoft looked at Java's shortcommings; and did a great job of answering those issues. All Sun needed to do was answer back in kind in the next release of Java. Yet here we are years later; and its only just now catching up. Why should we expect this press release to amount to anything from Sun? They've been promising to turn it around in the next version now for 10 years; but they keep getting farther behind. 10 years ago I told my Sun sun rep their boxes were too expensive to buy and upgrade compared to Linux. It's ten years later and I could have the same talk with my rep today. The only thing left in my racks with the sun logo are some monster 64 cpu machines running (big suprise) a massive Oracle database.

SAP, not .NET (2, Informative)

jt2190 (645297) | more than 8 years ago | (#14473219)

Read the source (article), Luke!

According to the article linked to by arsdigita [] , this is not about .NET at all, but about SAP. It looks to me like Oracle is actively porting its middleware to Java in order to claim that they are easier to develop for and less proprietary than SAP's counterparts. Sun and Oracle will promote each other's non-competing products as a part of this deal.

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