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.Net Programmers Fall in CNN's Top 5 In-Demand

Zonk posted more than 8 years ago | from the cha-ching dept.

Microsoft 602

GT_Alias writes "CNN Money is reporting that .Net programmers are one of the top 5 most in-demand jobs. Of the positions where recent surveys have indicated a labor shortage, .Net developers and QA analysts are the two that fell under the 'technology' category. According to CNN Money, .Net developers can make between $75-85K starting out in major cities, with the potential to make 15% more if they have a particular proficiency. Additionally, QA workers can make $65-75K a year with the ability to negotiate a 10-15% pay jump if they switch jobs. How does this information compare with the Slashdot crowd's real-world experience?"

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602 comments

Qué? (4, Funny)

Mathiasdm (803983) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641166)

Nothing for you to see here, please move along


It must be because I can only program Java. *sigh*

Top In Demand Job: #6 (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14641367)

Furniture repairman at Microsoft.

Re:Qué? (0, Flamebait)

Fecal Troll Matter (445929) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641382)

I work for a net programmer.

So I am getting a kick out of most of these replies.

Some of you guys are very good at making it sound like you know what you are talking about.

But trust me.... You don't.

I think you just want to make yourself sound smart, when in reality you dont know what you are talking about.

This is how bad info gets passed around.

If you dont know about the topic....Dont make yourself sound like you do.

Cuz some Slashdotters believe anything they hear.

I'm Job Searching (2, Interesting)

B_un1t (942155) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641176)

Where should I go to start learning .Net programming? I need some good skills as I'm just looking for my first IT job now. Should I turn to the evil Microsoft for training in .Net or elsewhere??

Re:I'm Job Searching (0, Flamebait)

someone1234 (830754) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641185)

What, M$ didn't bribe the education with free software where you live? I thought they did that in the first place.

Re:I'm Job Searching (2, Informative)

Timesprout (579035) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641187)

I believe most educational centers use Java as their demonstration language these days

Re:I'm Job Searching (1)

eneville (745111) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641196)

I believe most educational centers use Java as their demonstration language these days

they use all sorts, prolog, pascal (still), delphi, vb, haskell etc.

Re:I'm Job Searching (1)

Musteval (817324) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641381)

My school uses Pascal and QBasic.

I go to such a great school.

Re:I'm Job Searching (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14641398)

LOL!!!
I hear ya!

Re:I'm Job Searching (5, Insightful)

CastrTroy (595695) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641276)

You should just buy a book and learn it yourself. Do some real projects that you can demonstrate to the interviewers if you don't have any real world experience. You can use Mono if you want, or use the VS.Net Express Edition to get started. Once you get into more complex stuff, it'll probably be better for you to get real experience with the real VS.Net IDE. It's a pretty powerful IDE, and I like it a lot. There's a few things I'd like to change, but otherwise it's pretty good.

MOD PARENT UP! (4, Informative)

TERdON (862570) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641329)

Damn that i burnt all my mod points this morning. This is EXACTLY what I'm doing right now, as part of my master thesis. For all the Swedes out there, that already have some programming skills, I would strongly recommend reading Anders Forsberg - Programmering i C#. It concentrates on the parts making C# different from other languages and cuts the crap out. Add to that some kind of .NET Framework overview book, and you should have what it takes to get at least decent on your own.

Also, Visual Studio isn't a good IDE - it's a great one (especially compared to some of Microsoft's other software offerings). And I'm usually in the *nix crowd. Possibly vim or emacs are better, but they have a really high entrance barrier...

Re:I'm Job Searching (4, Informative)

$1uck (710826) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641305)

Download the Express editions of visual XXX.NET and then go watch the streaming multi-media lessons. http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/vwd/lear ning/default.aspx [microsoft.com] If you've done any real programming it seems fairly straight forward and the express software is similiar enough to the real stuff. The beginning lessons do a fairly decent job of showing you how to use the IDE which I think is probably just as tricky (if not trickier) than learning a new syntax.

Re:I'm Job Searching (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14641319)

I would be ashamed to be a *dot* net programmer. Use Debian or similiar distro, and you can get programmers from all over the world.

Re:I'm Job Searching (5, Insightful)

ACNSlave (750608) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641389)

I would be ashamed to be a *dot* net programmer. Use Debian or similiar distro, and you can get programmers from all over the world.

Meh. Shame has nothing to do with it. Feeding 3 kids, paying down a mortgage and putting gas in my Saturns has much more influence over me than your philosophical bullcrap. Shame... What Ever.

Final analysis: code is code is code. If coding for OSS projects floats your boat, then do so, Its a free world. I use Debian too, just not @ work.

BN, MCAD .NET (C# corporate whore)

Cheers, my man

Re:I'm Job Searching (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14641400)

This is actually a crap shot. If you are just starting, do not lock yourself into one thing or another. Keep in mind that there are plenty of MS coders out, many who are currently unemployed (with more coming). In addition, if you read the article, it is for EXPERT .net coders (i.e. with 5 years experience). What was missed is that experienced *nix coders typically make 100K and above (also with 5 years experience or more).
 
While you should learn this, you should also be gaining experience in java/C/C++, php, ruby, maybe some cobol and VB, and on several platforms particularly, Windows, *nix (apple and linux are the most used *nix, but solaris is big in some companies and you can also download for free).
 
Personally, I woudl try to judge the market and ask what will be hot in about a year, not what is hot NOW!. Then shoot for that market. For me, back in the mid 80's, I did trs-80 in a lab as well as mainframe/dos/apple, then in late 80's, I started down the path of network coding on Unix, moved on perl/web development in the early 90's (with the real jobs of working at IBM Watson(OS2/AIX), HP(HP-UX), Bell labs(Windows/SunOS) and USWest (mainframe, apple, HP)), started Linux coding in 93 with jobs in 94 through 97, teaching for the next few years (working on start-ups doing wifi), now contracting to move stuff from WIndows to Linux (lots of calls for that).
 
Make the right call, and you have plenty of work. Make the wrong call, and you are unemployable.

They don't know what .NET is (4, Informative)

adderofaspyre (800203) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641180)

From TFA: "Microsoft's software programming language .NET"

.NET's a platform or function library if you will not a programming language. Not getting your facts straight doesn't inspire me to have a lot of confidence.

Re:They don't know what .NET is (4, Funny)

roesti (531884) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641277)

Don't worry, even Microsoft doesn't know what .NET is yet.

Re:They don't know what .NET is (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14641335)

Mod parent "Truphful". What, there is no such designation yet? Shame on /.

Re:They don't know what .NET is (1)

AuMatar (183847) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641438)

How true. I remember when .Net was coming into being, and MS sent someone to talk to the engineering department at my school. For some reason, they sent a marketing guy, who spent the entire hour hopping from single sign on with passport, to the DOA Hailstorm, to a whole lot of bullshit and buzzwords, and briefly mentioned the runtime once. Mainly he talked up Hailstorm. You can guess how that went over with the audience. They sent a C# guy a week or 2 later as damage control, but it was far too late by then.

I'd say thats about right (4, Informative)

kafka47 (801886) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641181)

If anything, many of the .NET and other programming jobs that I see coming across my desk are in the range of 85-100K (in Canada). And there are a lot of them.

Also, I see a lot of new QA jobs emphasizing programming skills, thus driving up the wages. These days, excellent QA organizations will devote at least 50% of their efforts towards automation, either by building their own suites or leveraging off-the-shelf solutions. This is good for QA folk who eventually want to migrate into development, as they'll gain valuable skills along the way.

/K

Re:I'd say thats about right (1)

darmey (910068) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641273)

Yup, that's how my position called: QA developer. Although we still have a great demand for manual tests, for example, in browser tests the DOM is OK, but the display onscreen is totally crappy. And noone wants to do the "dumb manual testing". Ahem, well, its often dumb without quotes. Too bad there's nothing like 65-75K for that job in Russia =)

Re:I'd say thats about right (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14641429)

Do you wear a suit and tie and constantly nag your employees about TPS reports?

"leverage" is a noun. "lever" is the verb. "leverage" when used as a verb is some marketingspeak bullshit that incompetent middle management types use to make it sound like they know what they're talking about.

What is a .Net Developer? (5, Informative)

Sub Zero 992 (947972) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641183)

Are we talking ASP.Net? Are we talking SQL Server 2005 c# stored procedures gurus? Are we talking J# Nhibernate & Nant wizards? Could we possibly be talking about .NET Portable CLR professionals designing VOIP applications for Windows Mobile 2005?

Honestly, wihtout specifying the phrase ".NET Developers" more precisely the discussion will become meaningless.

My POV: a new college graduatre who can barely create encapsulated objects is not going to be pulling the same money as a Java turned C# enterprise framework analyst who writes the patterns published in those clever books.

Re:What is a .Net Developer? (1)

Jugalator (259273) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641287)

Are we talking ASP.Net? Are we talking SQL Server 2005 c# stored procedures gurus? Are we talking J# Nhibernate & Nant wizards? Could we possibly be talking about .NET Portable CLR professionals designing VOIP applications for Windows Mobile 2005?

Hmm, I have a feeling it's really talking about just that -- .NET developers. In general.
Could be why they get such a large demand of them, in case they're summarizing the demand in general.

Re:What is a .Net Developer? (1)

teslatug (543527) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641333)

Someone who develops in the .NET platform perhaps? No it doesn't have to be one of the subsets you picked. Just like when you say a C programmer you don't mean programmers using C to develop embeded software for widgets on snowy Monday's of every leap year.

Kill me...kill me please. (0, Flamebait)

x4071k05 (934632) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641184)

Since when did programming languages (C#, VB .NET) that a blind monkey missing three fingers could learn to program in pay high salaries? Bah. Blame it on point haired bosses (think Dilbert) who just want to incorperate the newest technology without understanding the benefits.

Re:Kill me...kill me please. (2, Insightful)

Musteval (817324) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641193)

There's a shortage of blind monkeys missing three fingers that want to learn these languages.

Anyway, just because it's easy to learn doesn't necessarily mean that it's a bad programming language. It just means that it's an easy to learn one.

Re:Kill me...kill me please. (5, Insightful)

jimicus (737525) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641214)

Anyway, just because it's easy to learn doesn't necessarily mean that it's a bad programming language.

No, but sooner or later it means that there are a bunch of colleges churning out people who've become "experts" having taken a 6 week course in the language with no prior IT experience.

Doesn't take long for it to become apparent that so many people who claim to know the platform are inexperienced fools. Once that happens, salaries drop.

Re:Kill me...kill me please. (5, Insightful)

CaymanIslandCarpedie (868408) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641413)

Wish I had mod points! Exactly correct, langauge really means nothing and I find this lists about as worthless as can be. Technology changes fast enough as it is, you don't need to make it worse by spending your career constantly chasing around the "hot" new programming language hoping you'll make a few extra grand a year!

Rule number 1) gain a solid understanding of computer, programming, design, network fundimentals. I doesn't matter if its Linux/Windows, Java/C++/.NET, etc, etc.

Once you have this solid foundation to build on then decide what industry segment you'd enjoy working in and learn that business segment inside and out.

I know as techies we often don't like dealing with getting our selfs "dirty" dealing with the business, we just like the tech but that will lead to a frustrating career in my opinion. Programming is becoming easier and easier, there is getting to be less and less value in being able to program any certain langauge, you can spend you entire life jumping between industries chasing the a few extra bucks in the lastest langauge or become an expert in an industry (where the real money is). When I'm looking to hire someone I couldn't care less what languages they know! As long as they are decent programmer its easy to teach them a new langange. Whats much more difficult is teaching them the fine points of our industry. So be it finance, retail, manufacturing, gaming, ect, etc. I think knowing a busniess well is much more important than what langauge you know.

Re:Kill me...kill me please. (2)

mdfst13 (664665) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641414)

"Doesn't take long for it to become apparent that so many people who claim to know the platform are inexperienced fools. Once that happens, salaries drop."

No. Once that happens, salaries *increase* but hirings decrease.

Most employers try to *avoid* hiring the inexperienced fools. As a result, they offer high salaries to the rare qualified coder.

Salaries don't drop until the demand actually drops, e.g. by the bubble bursting. A large supply of non-qualified coders doesn't affect qualified salaries. It just affects the cost of hiring. While in theory that cost could come out of salaries, in practice this only occurs in markets where demand greatly outstrips supply. Making it harder to find qualified coders makes them a more valuable resource.

Think about it. Who is more likely to get the job done. Five inexperienced coders? Or one experienced coder? Therefore, which would you rather hire?

Re:Kill me...kill me please. (1)

x4071k05 (934632) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641215)

Easy to learn = more people doing it. Anyone can take a dump in the woods, doesn't mean they should earn $75,000 a year doing it. More people in .NET however would mean more demand, to hire people who can maintain existing code without rewriting it from scratch. Hopefully lots of people will jump onto the .NET bandwagon and flood the job market. After windows 95...I'm not a big fan of MS.

Re:Kill me...kill me please. (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14641203)

What pays is not the proficiency but the willingness to do the job. .NET programming is "unsexy" integration work in an environment where you buy most of the code and have to cooperate with many, often competing, entities.

Re:Kill me...kill me please. (5, Insightful)

Silverstrike (170889) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641230)

Will someone please explain to me why syntactical ease equates to a "stupid language for monkies"? Just because C# developers don't have to worry about and juggle memory pointers, it doesn't imply that their job is automatically "easier" and therefore "worse" than that of a C/C++ developer. They still have to worry about good OO design, portability of code (yes, even in a VM language like .NET), and just all around good software engineering -- same as a C/C++ developer would.

Furthermore, just because C/C++ is a "faster" language, that doesn't imply its better suited to web development, or even windows app development. A strongly typed language with a predefined API like the .NET Framework gives everyone an even playing field -- it makes code extremely supportable by a wide range of people; everyone who knows .NET can support an app written against the Framework. Not so for C/C++, a windows/Visual Studio C++ developer would certainly struggle after being tossed into a Unix development environment.

Now, this is the same argument as most people with common sense make with Java -- no on says its the right tool for every job, but it certainly can be the right tool for a lot of jobs. The same with C++. Do you really think we ought to code our web apps in C/C++? IF so, then why not just go all out and do it in assembly?

Re:Kill me...kill me please. (1)

darmey (910068) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641292)

Yeah, let's make everyone have more VMs on their computers.

Re:Kill me...kill me please. (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641388)

Where did you see a mention of C/C++ in GP post? I would imagine he refers more to the esoteric power of Lisp, OCaml, Haskell and the like, as compared to a mundane Java clone that is C# (and VB.NET).

Re:Kill me...kill me please. (1, Flamebait)

BitwizeGHC (145393) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641297)

It's not that a blind monkey with 3 fingers can learn to program in it; such is true of Scheme and Smalltalk. It's that the best ur-hacker in the world isn't going to be terribly much more productive than the blind monkey in a language like C#. C#, VB, Java, etc. do not scale well with the intelligence of their programmers; Lisp, Scheme, Dylan, Python, and Smalltalk do.

There are a lot of jobs paying good money because companies are adopting or migrating to .NET for their enterprise applications, and C# is a very poor fit for complex code; you need chain-gangs of coders to churn out that code and high salaries are what get people in the door. Microsoft is trying to ameliorate the deficiencies of its standard platform and language set with something called LINQ; this is a rather paltry band-aid which compensates partially for the fact that C# is not Scheme.

Yeah sure. (1)

jotaeleemeese (303437) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641338)

The might of all the software houses, big multinationals with internal development teams, consulting companies around the world, goverments, etc., have not smelled the coffee about a language that will make them more productive.

But you have.

Paint me unimpressed.

Re:Kill me...kill me please. (1)

heinousjay (683506) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641418)

C#, VB, Java, etc. do not scale well with the intelligence of their programmers; Lisp, Scheme, Dylan, Python, and Smalltalk do.

You aren't demonstrating a whole lot of intelligence yourself. Just because you can't figure out the advanced techniques doesn't mean they don't exist.

Re:Okay - you're dead (1)

VJTod (563763) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641303)

A language that is easy to learn does not guarantee good code.

Even the worst logic or options can be generated from the best languages. Some lovely examples can be found over heres [thedailywtf.com] .

We wanted you dead anyway.

Re:Kill me...kill me please. (1)

jav1231 (539129) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641323)

All this .Net talk sounds like the old MCSE days. "Well, rather than tell you what I think I'm worth why don't you have a look at my MCSE. I think that should give you some idea." True story. They didn't get the job and my friend delited in letting them know why.

A Success Story (1)

Zerbs (898056) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641384)

I worked for a company that made the decision in 2003 to move towards .Net platform and C#, after evaluating Java / Websphere. .Net can give better performance than Java, and the group was able to produce results. In fact, the group that started the .Net initiative at this company ended up having the rest of application development use their model to update their skills and design concepts, even the small group of VAX programmers who were still around saw the potential in this technology and started writing interfaces as web services. Getting results is what matters, not some purist ideology, marketing hype, or fanboy attitude. After all, programmers and analysts job is to build systems and applications to meet business needs, not a self fulfilling desire.

Large groups of employers (3, Insightful)

eneville (745111) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641190)

Never underestimate the stupidity of large groups (the employers) of people. .net is just a freaking platform, its not like it is anything special, just another language that just depends on different things. Offers very little that most other languages offer in much the same way.

Why isn't something that's more portable (perl/python) in such demand? Really bakes my noodle.

Re:Large groups of employers (1)

x4071k05 (934632) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641200)

I must agree. I've never developed on .NET, a few years back I tried to install the microsoft .NET C++ compiler. I found the interface to be extremely sluggish. And previous code that was written for windows API wouldn't compile. Open source != Corperate world. Bosses want the newest product from microsoft no matter what the cost. After all, everything microsoft makes is good, right? Look at windows 95 that... oh wait...nevermind.

Re:Large groups of employers (3, Insightful)

Erik Hensema (12898) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641217)

Because .NET is the major development platform of the major operating system.

Neither perl nor python are very popular for large application development, even on unix. So there isn't much demand.

Re:Large groups of employers (-1, Flamebait)

eneville (745111) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641243)

Neither perl nor python are very popular for large application development, even on unix. So there isn't much demand.

I beg to differ. Spamassassin is perl, thats very not small, bittorrent's main client is python, to that matter i believe the server program is also python. in fact, perl is required in debian, it's part of their core utils. I think many programs on linux/unix would be broken if you did not have perl. python you can perhaps work without, but perl? no chance.

maybe next time your install something you should look at it's dependancies, perl is probably in the list some where.

.net is usually associated with web applications. so for web use (and IIS is not the most popular webserver) why is it in such demand, its not the more likely thing that someone will be working with.

Re:Large groups of employers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14641399)

Spamassasin is not very small? Perhaps you are confusing popular with large. The code base for Spamassassin is what? 2k LOC? 5k? When you get out of high school and stop "hax0ring" Lemonade Stand let us know.

Re:Large groups of employers (2, Insightful)

NutscrapeSucks (446616) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641427)

Hint: Trying to judge the software development market based on your Debian installation is futile.

Perl -- Had a shot at commercial app dev relevance in the 90s, but the world passed it by, and is used rarely for new projects. Largely relegated to Unix system scripts, which is more of what it was designed for.

Python -- Just because some college student coded a filesharing app with it doesn't make it a popular language. Nothing against the language, just that you probably won't find a job using it.

IIS -- it's actually a very popular web application server, but very few of those installations would show up in Netcraft surveys because they aren't Internet-accessible. Judging by the job market it's much more likely you will be "working" (that is, getting paid) on IIS or even Tomcat rather than Apache httpd.

Re:Large groups of employers (2, Funny)

OverlordQ (264228) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641245)

Neither perl nor python are very popular for large application development, even on unix. So there isn't much demand.

Bah, that's because we already solved all the problems ;)

Re:Large groups of employers (2, Informative)

dc29A (636871) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641313)

Never underestimate the stupidity of large groups (the employers) of people

So a company, who has it's infrastructure on Windows, should use a development environment not designed for it? Or worse, scrap Windows and install Linux? You know in a utopic world this would be a good thing to do. But not all companies are filthy rich that can afford the costs migration to the "cool *nix tech du jour". Some companies, especially the small and medium ones that are strapped for cash can't afford migration that means: training people, replacing most software and whatnot.

I hate Microsoft like the next guy, but .NET, especially the 2.0 framework is nice. The IDEs are finally catching up with the likes of Eclipse and Slick Edit (although Slick Edit still owns all), The code generated is fast and you can develop very fast on it.

Need a http server? About 10 lines of code of C#.
Need a windows service? About 6 lines of code C#.

Don't bash .NET just because you don't like Microsoft. C# and .NET are a good platform to develop on, especially in the Windows monoculture.

Re:Large groups of employers (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14641433)

On another note, I can't count the number of time I get called in to fix a Windows install at an SMB. This is weeks after they buy their MS SBS 2003 and have their tech genius (the boss knows Komputors!) install it.

All they want is a file server and email. So they spend 5k on a server and 3k on the software and some licenses for their 10 computer company and *all* they want is shared drives and email. Literally.

So I come in, clean up their Windows install. Configure their machines. Make things work.

Could be done with Linux and free software for ... what? Cost of server and me coming out? Actually would take about 1/2 the time to install and configure. Save 3k. Seems like a good idea to me.

But hey, Windows is great for my wallet.

Re:Large groups of employers (5, Insightful)

lilnobody (148653) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641330)

Why isn't something that's more portable (perl/python) in such demand? Really bakes my noodle.


Ever try and write an enterprise level application, even a web application, in perl? It's great for small internal applications; that CPAN doo-hickey works just great.

But CPAN bites you back when you hit the limits of what those modules can do in a large-scale application. When you hit the limit of what is the easiest and arguably the best (and arguably not) ORM out there, Class::DBI, there's 150 different, incompatible modules out there to do what you want. Which one will be maintained? Which one silently overwrites methods deep within more established modules and doesn't tell you? Want one that adds support for limit and sort by? One module gives you that easily, but not with the same interface as the other 10 that are more full featured. Which do you choose?

Don't even get me started on trying to send an email with Perl. CPAN seems to have a new module for sending email every other day. It's become less of a one-stop shop for the modules you need and more of the perl newbie ftp drop site for modules no one could possibly need or want.

As an example, check out what's been uploaded today. Version 0.02 of JavaScript::MochiKit, helpfully described as 'makes perl suck less', with 15 classes and less than a page of documentation. Great! Just what I was looking for!

There's also a module for interacting with MySpace, two versions in the same day of of an XML parser (writer? who knows, I didn't read it) for a data format used by the library of congress (from the same proud author of version 0.3 of Acme::Voodoo, described as 'Do bad stuff to your objects'), version 0.18 (version 0.17 was yesterday's) of DBIX::Class::Loader, a copycat of Class::DBI::Loader for this self-proclaimed CDBI replacement (which is probably needed, but god help a perl newbie who shows up on CPAN looking for ORM nowadays). It's 2pm my time (Austria), meaning it's 5:30 central time, and there are already 9 modules with version numbers less than 1.0 uploaded to CPAN.

Now don't get me wrong, this is fantastic for a small scale app. I'm sure someone will get some use out of a MySpace profile accessor in perl. But what makes CPAN, and perl, great for small-time stuff makes it just terrible for enterprise applications.

As for perl's portability...do you really expect to make an argument that a language that is, in quite official terms, defined by the official compiler is portable? Perl runs on windows, but since perl.exe IS the language, differences between it and the unix versions aren't even technically bugs...they just ARE! It's not a proper way to 'run a language', so to speak.

I've been programming in perl for years. I get paid well for it. I don't plan to stop using it for my insignificant applications. But I know damn well why it's not in demand.

nobody

Large groups of employers-GPL Herd Mentality. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14641439)

"Never underestimate the stupidity of large groups (the employers) of people. .net is just a freaking platform, its not like it is anything special, just another language that just depends on different things. Offers very little that most other languages offer in much the same way."

I feel the same way about Linux. It's just another "freaking" OS. Guess I shouldn't underestimate the stupidity of the OSS crowd.

the 'dot net' language? (4, Interesting)

mikeburke (683778) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641194)

The article says you can earn big bucks if you know the 'dot net' language. Trouble is, there's no such thing (unless you count MSIL, which you don't).

A whole bunch of langauges actually target the dotNet runtime (c#, visualbasic.net, j#, etc). My guess is that after a few years of head-in-the-sand, a metric crapload of legacy visual basic projects suddenly need porting to a platform with a future.

Re:the 'dot net' language? (1)

Sub Zero 992 (947972) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641205)

Why not count MSIL? It's easy as pie.

Re:the 'dot net' language? (1)

mikeburke (683778) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641216)

but what flavour?

Re:the 'dot net' language? (1)

sqlrob (173498) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641355)

cow

Re:the 'dot net' language? (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641279)

I don't think anyone takes J# seriously, and as for C# and VB.Net, they are pretty much the same language semantically, with different syntax. Sure, there are some small things in one that aren't in the other (like VB.Net WithEvents and Handles), but even so most people I know who can code in one easily understand the other. And all the framework libraries - BCL, WinForms, WebForms - are common to all .NET languages. Consider this: you can say that you are a 'Win32 developer', and that would mean that you know how to work with raw API calls; and if you do, the difference between making those calls in e.g. C, Pascal, or VB is not really important. Same thing for .NET: it's not the languages which count, it's the libraries.

So, yes, you can very well be a '.NET programmer'.

Yes! They're Right! (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14641195)

I've been brainwashed by slashdot users and most of the IT crowd on the Internet to go ahead and learn open source languages and applications and not to learn .NET, as it is Micoshit.

To my surprise, the IT crowd with the big voices on the net are not in-tune with reality.

Most of the jobs out there require you to use .NET.

Re:Yes! They're Right! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14641359)

No doubt .NET is Microshit; it's just that in the real world, Microserfs grow Microcash on Microshit...

Seriously, one of the major benefits of .NET languages is that they are easy to learn and use, as well as tolerant of bad programming practices. This means companies can hire cheap, inexperienced programmers and still manage to eke out workable apps. Now, do you really want to stay a cheap, inexperienced programmer forever? If you want the cushy job, go learn something obscure and valuable, not to mention hard to grasp.

Re:Yes! They're Right! (4, Insightful)

NutscrapeSucks (446616) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641448)

Care to explain how a "bondage and discipline" language like C# is easier to learn and more tolerant of bad programming practices, than TMTOWTDI open source languages like PHP and Perl? Oh, that's right, you were just spreading FUD.

For years, one could blame Microsoft for cheap amateur hack coding. No more -- Open Source "LAMP" now totally owns that market.

Re:Yes! They're Right! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14641423)

Why do you people have such a hard time understanding that .NET is great platform, its easy to use and scale and is so successful that companies are STILL having a hard time filling the demand? Also when they are talking about .NET developers, sure their are many programming languages etc. but generally what they mean is C#.

Wow, wish I made that much... (4, Informative)

Traf-O-Data-Hater (858971) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641198)

I'm a C#/.NET developer here in Australia, been doing C# for the last 5 years within a diverse range of industries. Prior to that I was a C++ dev for about 12 years. Before the dotcom crash I was on a 6-figure salary, now as a C# hack I earn about the lower end of the figures quoted - in Australian dollars (about 3/4 the value of US dollars).
One thing though, I got sick of the constant crap in C++ just spending more time on the stupid COM plumbing and myriad datatypes than actual applications work. Going to C# was a damn breath of fresh air. I LOVE it. I can actually get useful shit done that does stuff for the END USER of the the product and after all that's what the company pays me for. Perhaps I should just move to the US but with the god-bothering, shootings and rampant intake of GE food I think I'll give it a miss thanks. Oh and the lack of more than a week or two holidays... gackkk.

Re:Wow, wish I made that much... (1)

mikeburke (683778) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641201)

lower end, with that much experience? In Australia? I hope you're not anywhere on the east coast.

Re:Wow, wish I made that much... (1)

Traf-O-Data-Hater (858971) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641212)

Yep. East coast. Where I am, there are not many jobs going. However for me it was a lifestyle change, and my family comes before work. I am happy with my decision :)

Re:Wow, wish I made that much... (1)

mikeburke (683778) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641222)

I'm glad to hear it! Unless you're in Canberra, of course ;)

Re:Wow, wish I made that much... (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641237)

Canberra

A place so boring that there is no choice but to get stuff done. [samba.org]

Re:Wow, wish I made that much... (1)

Marthisdil (606679) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641244)

Perhaps I should just move to the US but with the god-bothering, shootings and rampant intake of GE food I think I'll give it a miss thanks

Says the guy who lives on a large Prison Colony :P

Better: be wide-minded (5, Insightful)

faragon (789704) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641223)

As rule of thumb, may be it is better for you to invert in general Computer Science formation (generic OS, compiler understanding, computer architecture, algorithmic complexity, et al), not just the "follow the last wave formation". Most people doesn't ever consider that it is dangerous to be extremely especialized. This applies to any platform-specific developing environment.

In the long way, you'll have to switch between many OS, compilers, languages, etc. Sometimes you have to be pragmatic, just to pay the bills, but take conscience about that the IT field is very variable in the surface, but sound in the fundamentals. This is why I recommend generic Computer Science formation when young people ask me for an advice (plus some other "last wave" preparation, just in case).

Unfortunately, I think it's accurate (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14641224)

Where I used to work, I was the only PHP/MySQL guy, and although I'm paid within the .NET range, all of our .NET guys were making 30k+ more than me and when some of them quit, they found jobs that paid ~20% MORE, while when I landed my new job, I'm stuck at some sort of ceiling....

.NET? Who cares? (0, Flamebait)

Max Threshold (540114) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641232)

There is very little legacy .NET code out there, and if you're writing new code, why lock your client into a platform? My shop uses PHP or whatever other open technology fits the bill. Only one guy in the shop knows anything about .NET, and he's not a fan of it. I don't intend to waste my time learning it, because it's dead-end technology for a dying platform.

Re:.NET? Who cares? (3, Funny)

Jugalator (259273) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641295)

I don't intend to waste my time learning it, because it's dead-end technology for a dying platform.

... taking the "FreeBSD is dying" to new levels.

Windows and/or .NET is dying, yes, it sure looks like that on the top 5 list. *rolls eyes*

What list/article were you looking at?

Re:.NET? Who cares? (4, Funny)

CaymanIslandCarpedie (868408) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641336)

What list/article were you looking at?

He don't need no stinking lists! He once talked to a guy who once sat next to a guy who's brother read the VS.NET EULA! Live and in person!!! 'nuff said! Do not question his authoritaaaaa!

Re:.NET? Who cares? (2, Insightful)

Rich0 (548339) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641363)

I'm sure Windows will be with us for a long time, but I'm also pretty sure that .NET won't.

Remember COM+, ActiveX, etc.? Every 3-4 years Microsoft comes out with their latest interfaces, buzzwords, etc. In a few years MS will be moving from Visual Fred to Visual Jake, and everybody will be doing backflips to migrate their legacy code.

Is it time to retire some of those COBOL/CSIS mainframes? Sure.

Do we need to rewrite every application we own just because it is more than three years old? No...

A lot of shops still have VB6 sitting around because of the large number of difficult-to-port applications. How many people have GCC v2 lying around for hard-to-compile C apps? Almost none, since the GNU folks are half-decent about backwards compatibility in their development tools. When things break it tends to be minor - as it should be for a programming language.

The bottom line is that programmers shouldn't have to jump through hoops every time MS wants to sell more development stuido licenses, or needs to attract media attention...

Worst post ever (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14641354)

^ This post contains exactly zero insight, but yet has been moderated to Score 5 insightful.

Re:.NET? Who cares? (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641396)

There is very little legacy .NET code out there, and if you're writing new code, why lock your client into a platform? My shop uses PHP or whatever other open technology fits the bill.
So, you're locking your client into PHP rather than .NET, then? I honestly don't see a difference, especially so for web development - ASP.NET applications work great on Mono, as they have no WinForms dependency.

Oh, and the bit about "dying platform" is particularly insightful.

Why .Net? (5, Insightful)

el_womble (779715) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641234)

I'm in the (un)fortunate position of seeing .Net and J2EE being used sideby side in the same application, and I don't get why people are using .Net in the enterprise. It can't be because CLR is faster than the JVM, it isn't. It may be fair to say that, for a bog standard application, .Net development is faster (Visual Studio is an excellent tool), but as soon as you start to push its framework (as all real applications do) the .Net teams fall behind the J2EE teams.

Java gives you choice. Choice of IDE, choice of framework, choice of application server and perhaps most importantly choice of platform. All that and it runs as fast as .Net and, if your on a budget, everything can be got for free. Need support? Buy WebLogic or JBoss support. Need training? Sun are more than happy to oblige. Need developers? You can't spit without hitting a J2EE developer. Need the source code? Sun will hand it over, for free, just don't expect any changes you made to be put back into the source tree, or them to give you any slack if you try and distribute at all - its not the freedom that OSS would like to give you, but its better than .Net.

So is it any wonder that there are less .Net developers. If I was starting out in software development again, I'd be still be looking to start in Java, and expect to move over to Ruby on Rails (or whatever is flavor of the month) in 5 to 10 years. Assuming people who make IT descisions get smarter, and OSS continues to get stronger, I can't see how any company selling enterprise grade software will be selling anything but the time and experiance of their staff sans the licencing fees of the tools and server software to their customers. How else will western developers compete with China and India?

Re:Why .Net? (3, Insightful)

azaris (699901) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641253)

So is it any wonder that there are less .Net developers.

More likely the story is that the old Windows developers are clinging to VC++ and VB instead of making the transition to the new .NET languages. Many of these .NET jobs are probably converting legacy Windows apps to the .NET platform. You can't just throw away a codebase worth years of labor and start over with Java, PHP, Ruby on Rails, or some other buzzword compliant flavor of the month.

I know we have to deal with this transition at work, so probably many others will have to, too.

I think you got it. (1)

IAAP (937607) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641417)

More likely the story is that the old Windows developers are clinging to VC++ and VB instead of making the transition to the new .NET languages.

I brought up Visual Studio .NET and in the "New Project" dialog, you can have a C++.NET project. I've never just taken old Windows C++ code and tried to make it into some sort of .NET app, but I'm sure it woulnd't be hard at all.

I guess of you're under a dealine, and you need to start moving over to a new platform, you'd have no choice but to take any short-cut you can.

Re:Why .Net? (1)

bwalling (195998) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641321)

You sound like the Linux vs Windows people. Java gives you choice. That could be restated as Java makes it confusing. No matter what you say about it, it's easier to get up and going with .Net than with Java. By the time you reach the point where you contend that Java gets better, you're already using .Net, so why switch?

Re:Why .Net? (1)

$1uck (710826) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641332)

I've often wondered the same thing why .NET? At my job I'm being pushed to develop my next project in .NET (VB no less, sigh even though the "advantage" of .NET is you pick your language right?). Well I haven't used VS since in 4-5 years so I'm watching all the beginner lesson on the msdn site. And I think I know the why the push for .NET the IDE/platform makes creating web apps brain-dead so brain dead the boss's son and his highschoo/college friends can produce reasonably professionally looking products in short amount of time. There is a trade off however. The end result is probably not very maintainable (no documentation, no real design or the coders don't understand the design) and forget about documentation (hell why would they document stuff they didn't even really write). Ok maybe I'm just a little bitter. Still I guess it will ad more marketability to my resume.

Web RAD (3, Insightful)

NutscrapeSucks (446616) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641375)

Aside from any of the language issues, ASP.NET provides a really productive environment for web app development. At least for projects of a certain size, ASP.NET is much cheaper/faster to develop for than J2EE, and the resulting code is generally pretty clean and easy to maintain. Java has all this heavy infrastructure for large applications (Struts, Spring, Enterprise Beans), but result is that it's uncompetitive for the small-to-midsized ones.

Re:Why .Net? (3, Insightful)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641407)

If you want to switch IDEs, operating systems, and whatnot, then, indeed, Java is a better choice. But in many cases you just don't. The whole thing with .NET is that it works really nice in its native environment (which is Windows/IIS/MSSQL). There is a level of integration there between libraries, components, and tools that Java simply cannot afford (due to its cross-platformability). This is not to say that .NET is locked into this particular environment - you can use Linux/mod_mono/MySQL, for example - but it just won't give any advantages over existing solutions then. For MS shops, however, .NET is a blessing - and there are plenty of those.

demand is back up (5, Interesting)

DeveloperAdvantage (923539) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641250)

Interesting, this past week there was another article about the potential for elimination of QA staff due to agile programming techniques:

http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?threa d_id=38785 [theserverside.com]

Software quality management is maturing into a discipline unto itself, and becoming much broader than testing. Manual testing is being replaced by automated tools.

Up here in Canada, I have seen an increase in the number of .NET positions too, although I don't think it is any stronger than the increase in Java positions. The demand for software developers has really picked up, and, just informally from the ones I have talked to, most head hunters are reporting being overloaded with opportunities to place people, as much as a 250% increase in demand for people over a few months ago.

The more interesting fact in this article.. (-1, Offtopic)

wfberg (24378) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641301)

The more interesting fact in this article (IMHO) is that, apparently, you can get an MBA in marketing. What the fuck is that all about? Sure, MBAs are as close to diplomas from non-accredited "universities" "based on you life experience" as they can get without attracting interest from the law as it is, but to hand them out even to marketingdroids.. *shudder*..

(Of course, any one with an MBA in marketing should understand that the fact that you're getting an MBA in marketing devalues the MBA instantly, so really, they should fail straight away for even daring to apply).

Work experience (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14641302)

Let me guess: they can't find programmers with 10 years .NET-experience?

There's a Reason For the Fall (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14641306)

The demand for .NET programmers won't last. It's foolish to build life around a Microsoft technology when global anti-MS sentiment is exploding. You won't see me out there being a prostitute for MS. Don't rush onto a sinking ship.

Most of you are missing the point... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14641309)

Yes you will make those salaries.. IF and only if you have the background and years of experience.
By background i mean 3 thiered knowledge, application life cycles..etc
and have a few large corporate project behind you.

Don't think for an instant you will get those amount of dollars for just
knowing VB,C#,ASP.net

Same applies to any language btw.

My advice is this, start small, get good projects that has the potential to be completed behind you and build up on that, your position will evolve naturally into corporate type programing in no time!

WHY?? (0, Troll)

gwatt (945206) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641320)

I'm learning VB .NET for school and o far it seems pretty useless. A friend and I have to make a voting application for the school. We consistently get Secuity Esception Errors when trying to access the database. And our teacher practically banned us from using a cgi application. I hate .NET

Re:WHY?? (1)

ahuimanu (237298) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641369)

VB.NET is useless - use C#

What's .NET? (3, Informative)

Uukrul (835197) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641327)

Visual Basic .NET, C# .NET, ASP .NET, ...
What the article says is that Windows Programmers Fall in CNN's Top 5 In-Demand.

That's because SOA is popular (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14641356)

and .Net is one of the vendor specific ways to do SOA. And SOA is popular with all the vendors because (suprise! suprise!) it's so bloody inefficient. You can sell tons of hardware and consulting services on SOA's coattails.

Resume interest (4, Informative)

Grad_2006 (951942) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641357)

I am graduating this spring from a major state university in the south. In our program we have learned such things as C, C++, PHP, Perl, Ruby(currently learning), Java, Javascript, and various other things in the Unix/Debain Linux environment. It was recommended by the Managing Principal of a software consulting firm that I learn the .NET suite on my own. Since I have done so and put C#.NET,ADO.NET, and ASP.NET on my resume the interest in my skills has gone up considerably. Just about every interview I go on now the employer is mainly interested in my .NET knowledge. I have found that the automatic code generation in VS 2005 allows me to spend more time on security and correct by design (not correct by testing).

Re:Resume interest (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14641395)

Wow, looks like you're going to suck as a software developer. Unit testing is one of the most important tasks in ensuring quality software - believing you can design your software using a framework to not need this level of rigour is extremely naive.

I sure as hell wouldn't want to work with someone so poorly informed. Oh yeah, and just so you know? Software consulting is by far the most evil job you can get as a developer... You develop crap software for companies that can't tell the difference, and you charge too much for it. Hope you don't have a conscience.

Re:Resume interest (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14641416)

AHHH, this "correct by design (not correct by testing)" is probably the stupidest new M$ collocation to clarion. They are baiscally just stating: "oh, but was designing a requirement before coding!?" - does it matter? "VS IDE is sooo cooool".
Just another "Windows just got better"...

Looking for slaves to Microsoft (0, Flamebait)

Omnifarious (11933) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641405)

I bet most of the .NET code and jobs out there are either from people who were playing around with the language for a bit and wrote some useful code that now needs maintenance, or is there because of some stupid mandate to use Microsoft technology.

.NET/C# is a language for programmers who are at least mediocre. Unlike VB, it's not a language for the masses of poor programmers who's real job is something else. So, why would any programmer who was any good bother to learn some language that's going to enslave them to one company's technology forever. It's senseless.

So, it makes perfect sense that it's hard to find .NET programmers out there.

And don't tell me about GNOME mono. That project will be killed in some way by Microsoft as soon as Microsoft thinks it's in their advantage to do so. It's just a much a dead-end as .NET.

It's not just programmers, it's business, too. (1)

IAAP (937607) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641449)

I'm working now in a startup phase of an enterprise. I am concentrating on Java, PHP, and other OSS stuff. The reason os so that if I'm using a vendor who I end up not liking, I can pick up and move to another. I don't want to be trapped in the MS world. I've seen some of the corp licensing requirements by MS and the costs of doing business on that platform is only going to increase.

Crossover skills (4, Interesting)

vinniedkator (659693) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641412)

Take any valued development skill like Java, C#, Oracle or SQL Server and add a few years of practical business knowledge such as securities trading, financial analysis or international taxation and these salaries can easily be doubled. I've seen hedge funds in my area looking for C# developers with securities trading system knowledge willing to pay $120k to $150k.

There is a lot of money to be had if you can understand business people and turn there needs into tools and applications quickly.

Where can I get the 85k (1)

jbplou (732414) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641424)

I am a .Net developer and I don't where I can go to make 75k - 85k developing in .Net, I know of positions managing .Net developers for that amout but I haven't seen an actual development position that pays that amount.

Supply and demand (3, Funny)

ThePyro (645161) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641434)

That definitely fits our experience in the Dallas area. We've tried twice in the last 6-8 months to hire another .NET developer, but both times we've come up short. Hundreds of resumes were submitted, and only about 5-10 of them had the .NET experience that we requested.

And unfortunately, the guy we ended up hiring had lied on his resume about his 2 years of .NET experience... he was hoping to learn "on the job" as it were, and we ended up having to fire him and rewrite all the code he had written, which was, of course, awful.

Fall? (1)

GiantCranes (949957) | more than 8 years ago | (#14641436)

The title reads as if .NET programmers are loosing ground. Why slashdot, why?
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