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Oracle to Layoff 2000 Jobs

CowboyNeal posted more than 8 years ago | from the axeman-cometh dept.

Businesses 178

Joey Benington writes "Oracle plans to cut 2,000 jobs across the Siebel and Oracle work forces after completing its merger with Siebel last week. 'We will retain 90 percent of Siebel's support, development engineers, sales and sales consultants,' said Oracle CEO Larry Ellison. 'Most of the Siebel cuts will be in the back office, and nontechnical staff. The majority of the cuts will be Oracle people, not Siebel.'"

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178 comments

And no doubt Oracle's stock will rise . . . (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686373)

. . . on the news. What a screwed up world we live in today.

Re:And no doubt Oracle's stock will rise . . . (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686383)

Why is this a bad thing exactly?

Re:And no doubt Oracle's stock will rise . . . (1, Insightful)

blair1q (305137) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686402)

Correct, but it's screwed up by design, and it was designed centuries ago under a buttonwood tree.

Stock = ownership.
Jobs = cost.

When you cut costs, you please ownership.

Do not pretend that being allowed to buy and sell stock in public markets means you care for employees. It does the opposite. It makes you yell at CEOs to constantly improve production rates while reducing costs. In the end, this non-resident-owner system results in a totally amoral business climate. People do not matter, and tenths of a penny per share per quarter do.

If the SEC required CEOs to measure and report employee happiness, and the shareholders considered that part of the value of their holdings, then it might be important to care. But none of that happens, so people are meaningless except as high-maintenance capital machines.

Re:And no doubt Oracle's stock will rise . . . (2, Insightful)

cryfreedomlove (929828) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686554)

Please consider that often times a lay off is the most ethical thing a CEO can do. If you have 10 workers but you can only afford to pay 8, then it is the ethical choice to lay off the 2 before the finances of the business become so unsound that you have to lay off all 10.

Besides, there's a collective hiring binge in the Bay Area right now. Most of the layed off folks will probably end up at Google with more pay real soon.

How to survive - long-term (4, Interesting)

IAAP (937607) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686592)

Will be through ownership. I detest this treatment of people like cogs as much as anyone, but the way survive this globalization trend is to become one those owners.

It's the owners who are receiving the benfits of this mentality who are going to win with globalization - not the workers. They're fucked. Labor, including smart people (90th percentile - .1*1 billion = 100 million very smart people in India alone!), is a commodity, now.

Another avenue is creativity. Not just the artsy folks, but being creative with new products and services and try to create your own asset to own.

Just what I've been hearing from folks who are making it in this new economy.

Re:And no doubt Oracle's stock will rise . . . (2, Informative)

PinkyDead (862370) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686580)

There's absolutely nothing screwed up about that.

Oracle and Siebel will have common administrative services - of which the new company does not need two. I'm sure they won't have two CEOs, so shouldn't that propagate the whole way down the company.

Laying those people off - while bad for the individuals - makes the company stronger and more secure. And what's the external measure of strength/security - stock price.

2000 jobs out of 55000 is, say, about 1 in 30. I work with a group of about 30 people - and on average 1 person leaves every month. I don't see why anyone would be shocked at the appalling tragedy of that.

You need to take a perspective view on this.

Re:And no doubt Oracle's stock will rise . . . (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686628)

Yet another disaffected communist. Tell me, comrade, what would you propose the system to be instead?

Re:And no doubt Oracle's stock will rise . . . (1)

Mistshadow2k4 (748958) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686784)

One thing that could be done is to reduce the ridicuoulsy large salaries the upper executives receive. Not only could they afford to keep more workers but they'd show more profit for the stockholders as well. But that never happens, of course. It's a mortal sin if an executive can't afford a new boat and fancy car whenever the whim hits him.

Re:And no doubt Oracle's stock will rise . . . (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14687522)

This company [entrust.com] is notorious for overpaid CEOs while their people don't get raises for several years. They finally got one this year; enough to buy a case of beer ($30) every two weeks. While the CEO makes over $1,000,000 and gives himself bonuses. This is noticable enough that he has even been asked in interviews about it.

Re:And no doubt Oracle's stock will rise . . . (1)

jmilezy (904134) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686683)

I think the fat should be cut from the top. We have the largest CEO to entry level worker wage ratio. It's pretty ridiculous compared to other industrialized countries that are doing just fine.

http://management.about.com/cs/generalmanagement/a /CEOsOverpaid.htm [about.com]

Only 2,000 jobs lost (1)

JohnCC (534168) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686374)

"The majority of the cuts will be Oracle people, not Siebel."

Oh thats OK then. 2,000 people is still a lot of people...

Re:Only 2,000 jobs lost (1)

biglig2 (89374) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686386)

I think he's trying to emphasise that the cuts are needed by the business, since if they were just random the tendency would be to cut people you don't know.

Let's see, the article says they'll be left with 55000, that means they're cutting almost 4% of the combined workforce. woo.

Re:Only 2,000 jobs lost (1)

Mostly a lurker (634878) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686424)

2,000 is indeed a lot of jobs. However, this needs to be seen in perspective. Following the acquisition, Oracle has about 40,000 employees worldwide and rationalization of backoffice operations, at least, was inevitable. A 5% reduction is reasonable. Just hope the integration of the Siebel business into Oracle goes smoothly, else we might be seeing worse layoffs this time next year.

Re:Only 2,000 jobs lost (2, Funny)

dsginter (104154) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686528)

These cuts are so that Larry can maintain his 450 foot personal cruise ship [powerandmotoryacht.com] .

Let me put it this way (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686802)

There is an unlimited supply of ordinary opportunities for ordinary people.

Extraordinary people (Larry Ellison) have to make their own extraordinary opportunities.

Don't worry about those 2,000 people. They'll bounce back in no time.

Its People! (5, Insightful)

jamesl (106902) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686379)

Oracle to layoff 2000 jobs

It should read, "Oracle to layoff 2000 people" Not jobs, people. People are losing their jobs. Its a sad thing.

Re:Its People! (1)

elfin_spectre (838439) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686409)

I wonder how much help these people are going to get from Oracle in finding another job. Maybe they will get some retraining. A course on how to say "Do you want fries with that?"

Re:Its People! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686511)

Do you think they will have a no compete agreement with them?

Re:Its People! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686779)

No compete is only valid in select places. In others, Oracle would be powerless to do anything. Even if the employee signed an agreement, if the law prevents it, the contract would have been null and void from the beginning.

Re:Its People! (0)

themysteryman73 (771100) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686413)

I believe the preferred term is "made redundant".

Re:Its People! (1, Interesting)

lucabrasi999 (585141) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686498)

I believe the preferred term is "made redundant".

That's too English. I can do so much better:

"Workforce Re-allocation"
"Re-Engineering"
"Right-Sizing"
and my personal favorite: "Resource Action"

Re:Its People! (1)

illtron (722358) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686421)

Glad I'm not the only one to notice that. But you have to admit, it's also sad when jobs lose their jobs. Or maybe they employ 2,000 clones of Steve Jobs. These are the big questions we should be asking.

Re:Its People! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686426)

Sad? Everyone in the tech industry should get laid off at least twice. Except me, but I'm really fucking good. (and I mean this in the least arrogant sense possible - most of you will never even glimpse my level, never mind achieve it.)

Let me guess (3, Insightful)

bigtallmofo (695287) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686445)

Sad? Everyone in the tech industry should get laid off at least twice. Except me, but I'm really fucking good. (and I mean this in the least arrogant sense possible - most of you will never even glimpse my level, never mind achieve it.)

Based on this rant, I'm going to guess you just got a job in IT working at the help desk and can't believe how stupid those idiot users are. You know a lot about Windows XP and still think you know everything. You're likely a few years away from realizing just how little you do know and attaining humility.

It's OK. Many IT people go through this phase. Best of luck to you.

Re:Its People! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686429)

It should read, "Oracle to layoff 2000 people" Not jobs, people. People are losing their jobs. Its a sad thing.

No! They shall be retrained to spider the internet for the new United States police state. Surely they can help us develop an AI program to detect mentions of bombings and cartoons and so defend us against the terrists.

Get your passport photos taken now, folks. Get out while you still can. It's only going to get worse.

Never understood this attitude (4, Insightful)

bigtallmofo (695287) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686432)

It should read, "Oracle to layoff 2000 people" Not jobs, people. People are losing their jobs. Its a sad thing.

A person losing their job is a scary thing for that person and their family. It's not necessarily sad. What is your philosophy when it comes to this? Once someone is given a job, does that mean they have it for life regardless of performance of the person or the company that person has chosen to align themself with? I can understand this statement coming from a brief moment of idealism or naiveness, but people lose their jobs. That's a necessary and proper action to maintain the economy as a whole. The realistic viewpoint is that most of the people laid off (especially the good ones) will go on to even better jobs.

That is not sad. Scary for them, but not sad.

Re:Never understood this attitude (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686527)

Once someone is given a job, does that mean they have it for life regardless of performance of the person or the company that person has chosen to align themself with?


The person's performance? Of course not! If you're a slacker (or just plain stupid), you need to be shown the door, pronto.

The company's performance? Well, obviously in the real world they don't, which is why it is sad (as well as, as you said, scary). They may have been sharp as a tack and working their butts off, but because of stupidity, mismanagement, greed and/or even outright dishonesty at the upper levels, they get put out in the cold--usually while those at the top keep their positions until/unless they sink the entire company.

Re:Never understood this attitude (1)

pipingguy (566974) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686612)


The realistic viewpoint is that most of the people laid off (especially the good ones) will go on to even better jobs.

As each cycle of better software clangs itself onto clueless managers' brains, the managers start to realize that employing real people is a profit negative.

This is NOT similar to the buggy whip analogy, THINKING people are being replaced now, not just assembly-line workers.

If you recall, after WW2 many people went into office work. Your experience may be different from mine, but most office tasks are redundant and pointless "show up because we have to pay you"-type work.

Anyone that has worked on priority projects knows that a smaller team works better and more efficiently. Well, that tends to be true until politics comes into the matrix. With multiple managers and vice-presidents (good signs of excess) comes delays, silly meetings, and time-wasting bureaucracy.

Re:Never understood this attitude (1)

D-Cypell (446534) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686740)

As each cycle of better software clangs itself onto clueless managers' brains, the managers start to realize that employing real people is a profit negative. ...and as they steam faster and faster into 'streamlining' and 'outsourcing' they will find that the consumers who are on the bottom end of their supply chain have no money to spend on their products or the products of their customers. Not to worry though, the current CEO's will probably have retired by that point!

Want to solve all of the world's problems in one go? Supress the instant gratification gene!

Re:Never understood this attitude (1)

JerkBoB (7130) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686853)

...and as they steam faster and faster into 'streamlining' and 'outsourcing' they will find that the consumers who are on the bottom end of their supply chain have no money to spend on their products or the products of their customers. Not to worry though, the current CEO's will probably have retired by that point!

Here's the thing that people don't get... Most big corporations are multinationals. They may give the appearance of being US-based, because that's what they were historically. Not anymore. As the US consumer base dries up and the middle-class hollows out, these corporations will simply move on to greener pastures. So, if you want to avoid being left behind, better start brushing up on your Cantonese or Hindi!

The CEO of DuPont was quoted in the latest Time (proxy) [yaga.com] :

"If the U.S. doesn't get its act together, Du Pont is going to go to the countries that do, and so are IBM and Intel. We'd much rather be here, but we have an obligation to our employees and shareholders to bring value where we can."

The context of the quote is in an article about how the US has been slowly losing its edge in Math and Science. Take a look at the rest of the article, it's pretty interesting (if depressing).

Bleah.

Re:Never understood this attitude (1)

D-Cypell (446534) | more than 8 years ago | (#14687003)

I see what you are saying but it seems to me that international corporations mostly make their profits by producing goods in a cheap labour market and selling them in expensive ones. They make their products in places where they can pay cents an hour and sell them to people who make tens, even hundreds of dollars and hour. They need both markets to be successful. They have the power to reverse the market but this doesnt get them anywhere. I still maintain that they are choking themselves.

Re:Never understood this attitude (1)

JerkBoB (7130) | more than 8 years ago | (#14687143)

I see what you are saying but it seems to me that international corporations mostly make their profits by producing goods in a cheap labour market and selling them in expensive ones.

Do you think that all Asian economies will always remain sources of cheap labor? It's still somewhat alarmist hand-waving to predict that China/India will suddenly become economic superpowers on a par with the US/Europe, but that does seem to be the trend. They are cranking out huge numbers of PhDs over there, and China especially is pouring TONS of government money into research. The way the US used to pour money into research when it was trying to win the space race and cold war. Now the US is distracted by "The War on Terror", and "The War on Drugs", and "The War on Teen Sex." US Congresscritters live and die by how much pork they bring home for their constituents (who aren't necessarily their electorate), which makes them pretty short-sighted.

Sure, there will always be someone lower down on the ladder to provide the cheap labor (think Africa), but it's a mistake to think that the US will always be at the top of the consumer pile. Check out "The World Is Flat", by Thomas Friedman sometime.

Realistic viewpoint? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686666)

Most people will find better jobs? You're presuming that there happen to be other companies around that can better exploit these worker's skills. Better than Oracle anyway. That use of the term good is a tautology. The ones who could find jobs were good by definition and the ones who couldn't were bad by definition. My impression is that bad workers are better at finding work than good workers. They *have* to be.

Re:Never understood this attitude (1)

GoofyBoy (44399) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686719)

>A person losing their job is a scary thing for that person and their family. It's not necessarily sad. What is your philosophy when it comes to this?

Its the lack of control that makes it sad.

You become reliant on the steady pay, the feeling of worth, the "something to do/place to go" because you belong.

Re:Never understood this attitude (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686771)

Then you should be happy you lost your job, because being reliant on your job for a feeling of worth is really sad.

Re:Never understood this attitude (1)

TopShelf (92521) | more than 8 years ago | (#14687500)

This layoff is the result of a merger that's been going on for some months now - I can't imagine that people were taken by surprise on this. Bottom line is that you can't work in a vaccuum, blissfully unaware of what's going on in your industry. As soon as the merger was announced, I would hope that Siebel and Oracle back-office workers would be polishing their resumes and looking out for their own best interests.

Re:Never understood this attitude (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14687590)

Its the lack of control that makes it sad.

That's precisely the reason I vowed never to work for a large (over 100 people) company -- unless you're a VP you end up being a line item on someone's budget. A line item that when push comes to shove tends to get cut.

At least in a small company I'm making a larger impact and it won't be as easy to can a faceless member of a team that's hundreds of miles away.

Course it comes with a price, one can barely coast in these jobs. But the same is said for ones with large companies. But at least I have some control, and usually know when (and where) the axe is coming from.

Re:Its People! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686451)

Or it could read "Oracle to cut 2000 people and 6000 jobs" since who does just one job these days?

Re:Its People! (1, Funny)

Ryano (2112) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686480)

"It should read, "Oracle to layoff 2000 people" Not jobs, people. People are losing their jobs. Its a sad thing."

Now that you've broken the ice on the pedantry thing, can I just say that it should be "Oracle to lay off 2,000 people"?

Oracle == Soylent Green? (1)

sczimme (603413) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686530)


Its [sic] People!

I though Soylent Green was people?? Dang it.

It should read, "Oracle to layoff 2000 people" Not jobs, people. People are losing their jobs. Its a sad thing.

Yes, it is a sad thing (no sarcasm). However, I would like to point the grammar finger back at you and mention that "layoff" is a noun; the headline should read Oracle to Lay Off 2000 People

Re:Its People! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686543)

Can't you read? It's "Jobs", with a capital "J". As in "Steve Jobs". And since it's Larry Ellison who's running the show at Oracle, no wonder he wants to get rid of all the Jobs at his company. Duh.

Re:Its People! (1)

palad1 (571416) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686633)

No, Solient green is people. Jobs is some kind of urban guru.

I hope they paid their.. (2, Interesting)

IAAP (937607) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686399)

Christmas CC bills!

FTFA: Delivery of the layoff notices has already begun, and the bulk of the pink slips will be handed out in the next few weeks

I think it's better to get canned before Christmas. That way, you don't rack up a shit load of credit card debt.

Re:I hope they paid their.. (1)

MaggieL (10193) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686448)

I think it's better to get canned before Christmas. That way, you don't rack up a shit load of credit card debt.

As long as it's before you do your shopping. I (and ten others) were notified on 12/13 that my 6-month consulting engagement that began in August and was allegedly solid at least through the end of January would be ending Christmas eve.

As for "we're laying off Oracle people, not Seibel people"...it makes one wonder whether the motivation was "Let's keep the folks whose attitude hasn't been ruined yet by working for a true monstercorp."

It certainly sends the message "Work hard and make us successful so we can afford to buy your replacements."

Re:I hope they paid their.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686457)

Or you could be resonsible and not spend a shitload of money you don't have. How's that for a radical idea?

You forget... (2, Insightful)

IAAP (937607) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686493)

that here in the US of A, spending beyond our means is a way of life. [Joke]Why, we have to. Without out us, the rest of world's economies couldn't grow. So it's a moral imperative that we run up huge amounts of debt! [/Joke]

I, myself, ask that nobody give me anything for Christams. I don't need anymore stuff. I have too much stuff as it is. But, unfortunately, there seams to be this "law" somewhere that people have to buy "stuff" for others and spend waayyy too much money.

I really wish Christmas was about friends and family. Getting together and having a nice meal, party, or whatever - no gifts! Sadly, that's not the way it is - at least here in the US of A.

Re:I hope they paid their.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686712)

Much the inverse. I'd rather deal with a reasonable debt even once laid off then be laid of before xmas and see the kids get almost nothing in terms of gifts...

Besides, I was just laid off 3 days ago (now on disability insurance), and I've already turned down several job offers (good ones too) and I haven't even applied for anything yet, just word of mouth from people who know me (I'll be going back to school for a couple years instead). If you're one of the competent and qualified IT workers, it shouldn't be THAT hard finding a job - even if it's just something temporary to pay the bills until you find that dream job again.

I've got my share of CC bills and I'm not worried one bit.

Re:I hope they paid their.. (1)

FireIron (838223) | more than 8 years ago | (#14687223)

Ever been laid off a few days before Christmas? I have. It sucks. You get to spend the holidays in a funk about losing your job, and you can't really start networking and interviewing seriously until everybody gets back to work after New Years Day.

How do you layoff jobs? (5, Funny)

Jivha (842251) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686400)

What in the hell does laying off *jobs* mean? I thought employees were laid off(or hired), and jobs were created or destroyed.

Although this could be correct if it were at Apple. Imagine:

"Apple lays off 1 Job(s)"

Freudian slip by.. (1)

IAAP (937607) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686440)

Larry Ellison.

Here's how (2, Funny)

aapold (753705) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686553)

Delete from payroll
where salary > 150000
and upper(lname) != 'ELLISON';

commit;

Re:Here's how (1)

NewKimAll (923422) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686820)

According to the article it would be:

09:10:58> Update Employees SET UNEMPLOYED_TYPE = 'LAID OFF'
WHERE UPPER(Employer) IN ('SIEBEL', 'ORACLE')
AND UPPER(Skill_Set) Like '%NONTECHNICAL%'
AND UPPER(Department_Type) Like '%BACK OFFICE%'
AND Salary
2000 rows deleted.

09:11:02> commit;
--
Oh crap, I just accidentally laid off people from my company with this post. Rollback! ROLLBACK!!!!

Re:Here's how (1)

NewKimAll (923422) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686841)

*Sigh* Curses, foiled again by HTML. I used "<" instead of &lt; Doh!

It started yesterday (3, Informative)

jerkychew (80913) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686428)

I have several friends at Oracle. I heard yesterday that they laid off over 20 people from just one floor at my friend's building. Some of them had been there for over seven years.

creators still looking for a little bit of help (1)

already_gone (848753) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686437)

volunteers mostly, to assist in the wwwildly popular, newclear powered, planet/population rescue initiative/mandate. there's no immediate payoff, but the karma lasts for eternity. apply within, yourself.

see attached:

felonious corepirate nazi execrable still running US DOWn

what a surprise?

how is it allowed? just like corn passing through a bird's butt eye gas.

all they want is... everything. at what cost to US? not a pretty picture at all. quite infactdead from our viewpoint.

for many of US, the only way out is up.

don't forget, for each of the creators' innocents harmed (in any way) there is a debt that must/will be repaid by you/US as the perpetrators/minions of unprecedented evile will not be available after the big flash occurs.

'vote' with (what's left in) yOUR wallet. help bring an end to unprecedented evile's manifestation through yOUR owned felonious corepirate nazi life0cidal glowbull warmongering execrable.

some of US should consider ourselves very fortunate to be among those scheduled to survive after the big flash/implementation of the creators' wwwildly popular planet/population rescue initiative/mandate.

it's right in the manual, 'world without end', etc....

as we all ?know?, change is inevitable, & denying/ignoring gravity, logic, morality, etc..., is only possible, on a temporary basis.

concern about the course of events that will occur should the corepirate nazi life0cidal execrable fail to be intervened upon is in order.

'do not be dismayed' (also from the manual). however, it's ok/recommended, to not attempt to live under/accept, fauxking nazi felon greed/fear/ego based pr ?firm? scriptdead mindphuking hypenosys.

consult with/trust in yOUR creators. providing more than enough of everything for everyone (without any distracting/spiritdead personal gain motives), whilst badtolling unprecedented evile, using an unlimited supply of newclear power, since/until forever. see you there?

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

Market forces (5, Interesting)

secretsockpuppet (953391) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686438)

And Oracle India has been adding thousands of staff during past couple years.

http://www.dqindia.com/dqtop20/2004/compdetails.as p?rank=19 [dqindia.com]

Good old market forces in action, folks. Nothing to see here, move along

Re:Market forces (1)

sunsrin (842762) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686548)

Oracle approximately wants to hire 10000 people in India. Its current strength is around 8600. Here is the 2006 [redherring.com] data ..

CFO says 100%, CEO says 90% (2, Interesting)

Jivha (842251) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686441)

I don't know how many people noticed the subtle differences between what Safra Catz, Oracle CFO said and what Larry Ellison, its CEO said.

"We will retain...Siebel's product development and product sales and marketing teams," said Catz.

"We will retain 90 percent of Siebel's support, development engineers, sales and sales consultants," said Oracle CEO Larry Ellison. Obviously Catz is the one who must be lying because no one would be daft enough(no, not even Ellison) to say 90% if it were really 100%. Makes you wonder how much trust should be placed in corporate annoucements.

Re:CFO says 100%, CEO says 90% (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686880)

I work for Siebel. Last Friday they laid off a bunch of people, I heard it was around 300. So, that backs up Larry's statement. As for Safra's statement, she only said the teams would be retained... not all the employees in those teams.

Re:CFO says 100%, CEO says 90% (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686928)

They could save a lot of their workforce and expenses by dumping many the Siebel developers and support staff and replacing it with bugzilla for trouble tickets. My god, that Siebel trouble ticket system si terrible! The web interface is awful, the Windows client has no proper concept of a "commit these changes only after I hit this button", and the interface was designed in a room filled with an infinite number of monkeys monkeys trying to write Hamlet with a random assortment of Visual Basic commands.

I've seen technical departments declare open revolts against companies that insist on using Siebel for "standardization" reasons and insist on using Bugzilla or RT for all bugs instead.

Corporate Announcements (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686987)

Makes you wonder how much trust should be placed in corporate annoucements.

Always start out assuming a corporate announcement is a pile of stinking malicious lies until your research proves you wrong....

Me?? A cynic!?!? Naaaaaah.....

AWESOME fp (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686443)

that suuport won't be shouting

Job Cuts seem to be in vogue (1)

masterpenguin (878744) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686459)

It seems like a popular move for companys lately to fire lots of people to make them seem 'leaner' and more 'competitive' however the us economy will never pick up if well paying jobs keep going the way of the ghost. if this continues eventually there won't be enough well paid employees to buy expencive products therefore reducing the jobmarket more. this is a bad trend imo.

Re:Job Cuts seem to be in vogue (1)

antifoidulus (807088) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686552)

Reminds me of an article I read yesterday on Yahoo Finance. It stated that stocks were rising on both Oracle cutting jobs AND that the US unemployment number fell. It seems like a lot of people say, "I want lots of people to have jobs, but not in companies that I invest in". Seems like a tradgedy of the commons to me...

Re:Job Cuts seem to be in vogue (1)

XMilkProject (935232) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686721)

Well, typically this is occuring becuase the company realized that 30% of their payroll was a bunch of Bozo's that weren't pulling their weight.

Or in the case of the large US Car manufacturers doing this lately, becuase they realized 100% of their (Unionized) payroll was a bunch of Bozo's that weren't pulling their weight.

Often in these situations the company will actually be more productive (i.e. get more work done) after all these people are gone.

Of course in other situations the company is just completely out of money, and goes around firing all the highest paid people regardless of consideration for talent/worth. That just means the company won't be a company too much longer.

I do feel bad for all these people, and hope most of them were given significant notice of this impending doom. But the sense of entitlement is uncalled for, the jobs were a privilege not a right. And besides, Oracle must look great on a resume, usually I put it in the 'Skills' section, but these people can put it under 'Work History' also! I bet if they are worth their weight in salt they'll find a new job real quick.

Re:Job Cuts seem to be in vogue (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14687515)

You have to be kidding.

People who don't pull their weight get promoted, not fired.

Re:Job Cuts seem to be in vogue (2, Informative)

RingDev (879105) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686871)

This isn't a trimming for appearance, the is the buy out. Oracle bought Siebel. Both companies have accounting departments, human resources, upper management, accounts recievable, etc... There is no need to have 2 seperate accounting departments when 1 can run it just fine.

And beside, it's not like they are getting dumped into a saturated market. Silicon Valley has thousands of openings in other tech companies. Most of these people will get snatched up by Google (1000+ openings), Yahoo (500+ openings), and Sales Force (150+ openings). http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/09/technology/busines s2_orcllayoffs/index.htm [cnn.com]

-Rick

Re:Job Cuts seem to be in vogue (2, Insightful)

Antique Geekmeister (740220) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686876)

This isn't always why layoffs happen. I've seen companies developing and releasing a good product, project market growth over the next few years that justify bringing some new staff, then have to cut back wildly as the market evaporates. It happened to a lot of good companies in the dotcom crash, and in the wake of 9/11, even if the companies were well run and actually doing good work.

When people won't buy even good products, or stop traveling out of justified fear, you have to scale back your staff. The trick is to dump, without a big golden parachute, those "big idea" people who thought that all that expansion was a good idea and spent all the investor's money on office chairs for executives.

Ninnle Linux to create 2000 jobs. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686475)

They're hoping to pick up all those that Oracle just gave the boot!

You'll notice this somehow missed the papers, but then, Ninnle is a really well kept secret!

I guess they should not lay off those people (1)

w.p.richardson (218394) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686494)

and let the business environment pass them by to a point where they go out of business or get absorbed into some other company who fires everyone. 100% job loss later is better than 10% now, right?

It's too bad for the people who are losing their jobs, but there are always opportunities for talented, resilient individuals.

Re:I guess they should not lay off those people (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14687130)

It's too bad for the people who are losing their jobs, but there are always opportunities for talented, resilient individuals.

Yeah, but how long is it going to take for someone to get a job? Most of those people (we're talking Bay Area, folks!) are living paycheck to paycheck, barely making it on, say, $50K/year. Figure a month per 10K salary to find a comparable job. So for each month, you are losing 2 months pay. That's why financial advisors are always saying "keep 6 months liquid assets on hand in case of problems."

Some hot-shit C guy could probably get another job right away. Do you really think those are the people getting laid off? No way, it's back-end admin staff. My personal experience as a hot-shot db person and dba has been, if you get another job while you are hot, you get it right away, but if you start from a dead stop after a layoff, the month/10K has been somewhat accurate, dead-on even if you call it losing 2 months pay for each month. The more bizzare thing IMO is that I've been both perm and contract, and that has made zero difference in how long jobs last (no matter what the nominal length of the contract was). People hire me, then realize what a great deal they've gotten, then new damagement come in and I'm boned. So, is an average of 2 or 3 years loyal or job-hopping? I would have thought not. [signonsandiego.com]

VW is laying off 20000.

This is NOT an Oracle thing -- it's an acquisition (4, Insightful)

PeeAitchPee (712652) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686496)

Layoffs are inevitable when one company buys another one. It's not "sad," it's a part of working in high-tech. Redundant positions are eliminated while typically (most of) the best people in sales, marketing, PS and dev are kept. Legal, HR, finance etc. usually totally get wiped out. Get over it and use it as an opportunity to find a better job. As for the Larry-bashing crowd: say what you want about Oracle and / or Ellison, but the fact is that it didn't really matter who bought Siebel -- layoffs were inevitable. The same thing happens when Google buys a company. I've personally been through two of them already in my relatively young career and everyone knew that layoffs were part of the deal. Besides, do you really think people who had been working for Tom Siebel were worried about something like losing their jobs? ;-)

what is sad.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686715)

what is sad is the increasing centralization of corporate power which is going on.

Re:This is NOT an Oracle thing -- it's an acquisit (1)

Mistshadow2k4 (748958) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686829)

Dude - it is sad. What's sadder is people like you who say it isn't sad, it's all about what's "good for the orporation" and actual human beings don't matter. Oh, by the way, chances are good a loved one of yours may die of cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc. But it's not sad, it's just a fact of life. Get over it and find new loved ones.

Re:This is NOT an Oracle thing -- it's an acquisit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686905)

Besides, do you really think people who had been working for Tom Siebel were worried about something like losing their jobs?

We sure as hell were. First due to the general direction of the company and business, and then after the surprise announcement that we were being bought out by the last company we ever thought would do so.

As others have written, the cuts are primarily back office where there's job duplication such as with HR and IT. Siebel already went through two painful rounds of cuts over the past few years; whoever's still with us is top-notch, although a few people in crucial departments have been cut not due to competence but petty management behavior (we miss you, EK). We've cleaned our deadwood and it's Oracle's turn: four percent is pretty low for a merger of this size.

And of course Oracle's CRM department is going to take a beating. Our software works (when configured properly) and theirs didn't which is why they bought us instead of just crushing us in the marketplace. Oracle almost took down a couple companies with their crappy CRM (I know, I know, but relatively speaking) and year-late implementation. Our software works and is pretty much just being rebranded.

I wonder if we're going to change the color scheme.

layoff huh? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686535)

is layoff a word like backoff or jackoff?

I mean would it be proper to say:

Hey you Oracle jackoffs, backoff my job layoff.

2000 jobs = 2000 people (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686558)

A loss of 2000 jobs can mean that a substantial larger amount of people lose their job. Think part time workers, for example.

Oracle Sails vs Oracle Sales (1, Funny)

digitaldc (879047) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686578)

Come on, how else is Oracle going to afford to keep sponsoring their elite yacht racing? [bmworacleracing.com]

These layoffs were predicted (1)

aviator (83555) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686604)

Two months ago the WSJ predicted that Oracle would layoff 2,000 people after the merger, so this news should not be a surprise.

Lay off the Billionaire (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686621)

FUCK Larry Ellison! This guy has more money to spend than all of his workers put together, yet he is still greedy for more.

It is a pity the IT industry is not more unionised, we could stand up to this sort of shit if we were.

Is anyone here prepared to get out in the streets to support their fellow IT workers?

Re:Lay off the Billionaire (0)

jcnnghm (538570) | more than 8 years ago | (#14687019)

You should take some Econ courses.

Re:Lay off the Billionaire (1)

MSenhanced (549093) | more than 8 years ago | (#14687601)

> FUCK Larry Ellison!

Dude, do you know how I know you're gay?

Yeah, it's a scary time and it might seem sad but I think it's the best decision for the both companies and the economy as a whole. If these good people have valuable skills, they should have no problem finding another position and learn from the experience.

severance packages? (1)

DeveloperAdvantage (923539) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686759)

Anyone out there know what kind of severance packages these employees will get?

Re:severance packages? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14687053)

Last year a special "retention plan" was put in place in Siebel that mandates larger severance packages in the event of layoffs after a company takeover. That plan is now in effect, and regular employees get around 3 months pay... Directors get more, and VP's get something like a year's pay. It's good to be the king!

Re:severance packages? (1)

bladesjester (774793) | more than 8 years ago | (#14687250)

Last year a special "retention plan" was put in place in Siebel that mandates larger severance packages in the event of layoffs after a company takeover.

This explains why Oracle is talking about laying off primarily their own staff and not the staff from the acquired company...

Re:severance packages? (1)

kilfarsnar (561956) | more than 8 years ago | (#14687402)

A friend of mine worked at Oracle until yesterday afternoon. He worked in a release group. He is getting a month of health insurance, four weeks pay, and a week's pay for every year he worked there.

VARCHAR2(4000) (1)

shadymike (623907) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686848)

There went the last chance to have a text column larger that 4000 bytes!

Huh? (1)

mstefanus (705346) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686907)

2000!? I tought there was only 1 Jobs and he's working for Apple. Am I missing something? Pixar made clones?

It's human nature. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686929)

When you're on top, the people below matter to you less.

When you're at bottom, those above you matter more.

We have a word for this, it's called Greed.

Layoffs because of open source? (2, Interesting)

DogDude (805747) | more than 8 years ago | (#14686936)

I know that this could never be measured in any kind of way, but I have to wonder... how many of these 2000 jobs lost are a result of open source competition? Are these jobs the direct result of Postgre SQL giving away their product? Is this the start of the decline of IT as we know it, because of Free software?

Re:Layoffs because of open source? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14687070)

Yes, because free software really kills the big guys. I mean, look at Microsoft - it's nothing but a skeleton of a company.

Open source is just another competitor in the marketplace. Layoffs come because CEOs want to make $210 million instead of just $200 million. They come because of the desire to assimilate the competitor through acquisitions: resulting in a monopoly.

*GREED* causes layoffs.

Re:Layoffs because of open source? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14687384)

Is this the start of the decline of IT as we know it, because of Free software?

DogShit(TM) - now with 100% of your daily FUD requirements!

By the way, free software also causes cancer. And communism.

Twat.

fuvck a mar#e (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14686971)

0series of debates OS. Now BSDI is

It's friday (1)

mynickwastaken (690966) | more than 8 years ago | (#14687018)

Bob Slydell: No. No, of course not. We find it's always better to fire people on a Friday. Studies have statistically shown that there's less chance of an incident if you do it at the end. Office Space

Scaring More Away (1)

blueZhift (652272) | more than 8 years ago | (#14687080)

Granted, mergers and buyouts almost always mean big layoffs, but this is just another story that will scare people (in the U.S. at least) away from the tech professions. Next I suppose Ellison will make some speech about how it is so hard to find qualified workers in the U.S. because the public education system is so bad.

And yet ... (3, Insightful)

SABME (524360) | more than 8 years ago | (#14687249)

... various government and tech leaders in the U.S. are waving their hands and bemoaning the shortage of tech workers. And wondering about the decline in students interested in engineering and computer science.

HELLO!??! What kind of idiot works their butt off studing for four years to enter a career that is stressful, demands never-ending study, and calls for ever-increasing sacrifices of personal time in return for a job that offers middling pay and doubtful prospects for long-term employment?

Oh wait ... I'm that kind of idiot ... Never mind.

Try to speak English (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14687259)

You can layoff 2,000 people. You can cut 2,000 jobs. But you can't layoff 2,000 jobs.

BS (5, Informative)

Ramjet350 (582868) | more than 8 years ago | (#14687653)

Anyone who tries to justify what Larry did is a moron. I was laid off yesterday from Denver and everyone can tell you it was not about duplicate positions. My manager told me that they never even contacted him to ask his opinion on who to let go. It was all chosen by some executives in California who just wanted to reduce numbers.

They even had the balls to tell us they might call us if they realized it was a mistake and wanted you back. Does that sound like the "ethical" way to do things for a company?
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