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The Pirate Bay is Here to Stay?

Zonk posted more than 8 years ago | from the arrr-me-hearties dept.

956

vitaly.friedman wrote to mention a Wired article about The Pirate Bay, a file-sharing crewe out of Sweden that thumbs its nose at the MPAA just for kicks and has yet to be shut down. From the article: "The Pirate Bay's legal adviser, law student Mikael Viborg, said the site receives 1,000 to 2,000 HTTP requests per second on each of its four servers. That's bad news for the content industries, which have fired off letter after menacing letter to the site, only to see their threats posted on The Pirate Bay, together with mocking replies. Viborg said that no one has successfully indicted The Pirate Bay or sued its operators in Swedish courts. Attorneys for DreamWorks and Warner Bros., two companies among those that have issued take-down demands to the site, did not return calls for comment."

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(Don't) Call Your Congressman! (4, Interesting)

dada21 (163177) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915271)


I always love when people think that writing or calling their elected official makes a hill of beans of difference. For me, all it generally did was give me a nice elated feeling when I received a signed letter in the mail thanking me for my opinion, and then writing a paragraph about why their decisions would never change.

I've lately become a firm believer in wasting the time of the company that has used the power of government against me -- in this case, the content and distribution cartels (RIAA, MPAA). Instead of calling your elected official, call the companies themselves and keep moving up the ladder with the fact that you have a general complaint about their products. Don't accept the underlings and don't tell them exactly what it is you're mad about. If that doesn't work, call up their sales department and work your way up the ladder there requesting information about their services.

The slashdot effect is great on the Internet, but it is even more powerful on the phones. Each and every server request you make costs any one company very little. Each and every phone call you make gets heard, at least in the bottom line.

I'm not telling people to do anything illegal -- don't hassle, don't spam, don't swear, don't threaten -- just call. Call and tell them you don't appreciate their actions, you don't appreciate their products, and you don't appreciate their lobbying to creatre a more powerful Congress.

I know my phone calls don't make a difference -- yet. But over time, as more people realize that voting with their dollars and voting with how they spend their time, we'll see change being made through a free market of motivations.

To stay a bit on topic: I recently spent quite a bit of time researching the Swedes, and I'm very surprised at the amounts of freedoms they had in a country that has typically been considered socialist. I think they'd be a dream country for most Progressives (which means it would be a nightmare for me), but it surprises me how many rights they still retain that we gave up in the US a long, long time ago. The freedom to do what you want with products you physically own is a great freedom, in fact I believe it is the basis for freedom. The freedom to do what you want with your labor and your mind is included in that freedom, and that is why I am against intellectual property rights in every way.

Go TPB!

socialist-democratic not communist (5, Insightful)

BoxedFlame (231097) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915316)

The socialist-democratic movement has always been very keen on protecting the little guy, and that doesn't happen without protecting his/her rights.

Re:socialist-democratic not communist (4, Insightful)

dada21 (163177) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915337)

This is a very important thing you said, moreso than the casual single line post would usually dictate. Protecting rights is the role of government -- doling them out and giving preferential rights is not their job. I think Sweden's view on not just protecting the rights of the minority, but also giving them some subsidy rights, is where they fail overall in having a much more powerful trade position as well as a more vibrant economy. I plan on hitting Sweden this year for visit -- I haven't been there for over 17 years, but I do recall loving the country's people. Except for all the 6'6" women :)

Re:(Don't) Call Your Congressman! (5, Insightful)

spyrochaete (707033) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915346)

Well said! You are right on the money about the freedom to do what you wish with the products you buy. Funny how such a socialist country retains so many freedoms, yet ironically the USA moves closer and closer to the communist ideal of state-owned property.

For those too shy to call, even a posted letter speaks decibels louder than an email or online petition. It might not hurt to speak to your elected official just the same. If and when enough noise is made on both fronts they will intersect at some point and the government will tihnk to itself "hey, I've heard this issue before".

Re:(Don't) Call Your Congressman! (2, Interesting)

mobiux (118006) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915475)

I don't think it's state-owned property, the state allows the corporations to retain ownership and just rent/lease it out to people as they see fit.

It's more of a rentocracy than anything.

They don't want to sell you a product, they want to sell you a service.

Re:(Don't) Call Your Congressman! (4, Insightful)

ProudClod (752352) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915540)

The communist ideal isn't state owned property - it's the dissolution of the state.

It's the transfer between private property and the shared ownership almost inevitable leads to that problem - but it's certainly not the 'ideal'.

Re:(Don't) Call Your Congressman! (5, Interesting)

MikeBabcock (65886) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915351)

You made a great comment that reminds me of something I've always been annoyed by as a canadian -- socialism is not contrary to freedom. Socialism is in fact designed to be freedom, freedom from poverty and medical expenses as well as personal freedom.

Socialism is simply contrary to pure capitalism, which obviously doesn't work (see neighbour, USA). Plenty of imprisonned people with no access to lawyers, lots of people living in complete poverty in major centers, no easy access to medical services for those without insurance, no easy access to pharmeceuticals to those not in the middle and high income brackets.

Re:(Don't) Call Your Congressman! (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14915406)

You made a great comment that reminds me of something I've always been annoyed by as a canadian -- socialism is not contrary to freedom. Socialism is in fact designed to be freedom, freedom from poverty and medical expenses as well as personal freedom.
Huh? How about freedom to keep what I earn and use it to pay for my own medical insurance of my choice? Freedom to not run across the border to have to use a doctor of my choice? Freedom to not be poor through the sweat of my brow? My country's a great one, but it's not all roses here.

Socialism is simply contrary to pure capitalism, which obviously doesn't work (see neighbour, USA). Plenty of imprisonned people with no access to lawyers, lots of people living in complete poverty in major centers, no easy access to medical services for those without insurance, no easy access to pharmeceuticals to those not in the middle and high income brackets.
They have problems, but it's not as grave as the world news would have one believe. They're breaking apart as they become more and more like us! Thanks God we have a good, powerful neighbor.

Look, I love my country, and we have certain "advantages," but they're heavily offset by the loss of real freedom.

Re:(Don't) Call Your Congressman! (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14915524)

I don't really see how you're prevented from visiting any doctor you please. At least in Montreal, I can go to any damn doctor I please. I'm moderately sure that most other provinces work similarly.

In fact, I think most American insurance companies force you to stick to a particular HMO - this seems like an even worse loss of freedom, since you're forced to select a doctor not from what you decide is the best option, but from the pool that your insurance company is willing to pay for.

Admittedly, you give up one freedom - the freedom to use your pay as you please - but you also gain the freedom to visit any hospital, anywhere in the country, and know that you can get health care and you won't go bankrupt for it.

Re:(Don't) Call Your Congressman! (1)

Draek (916851) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915491)

careful with that... murder could be said that it's "freedom from life"...

fact is, socialism and capitalism are just two different solution for the same problem, and there are many examples of failed socialist and capitalist societies, as there are examples of successful socialist and capitalist societies... besides, USA is *so* far from the capitalist ideal that it shouldn't be an example of either...

Re:(Don't) Call Your Congressman! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14915495)

You should be thanking us and appreciating the virtues of our system, since we are the ones spending all the money to develop the drugs that you get for cheap. Your medical system wouldn't work if the American consumer wasn't subsidising that research.

Re:(Don't) Call Your Congressman! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14915529)

What? Sure, if you count Viagra. No one develops cancer drugs in the USA because there's no money in it.

Re:(Don't) Call Your Congressman! (3, Insightful)

TooMuchEspressoGuy (763203) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915517)

You obviously don't understand that the USA isn't a capitalist state. We're a "mixed economy," meaning, essentially, crony capitalism. In a real capitalist economy, the government wouldn't have the power to hand out subsidies, prevent unions from counterbalancing the power of corporations, and legislate things like copyrights. So, while you see it as capitalism that's ruining America, I see it as the elements of socialism that have been introduced into our capitalism.

As for the rest of your post, classic Orwellian statement.

"War is peace. Ignorance is strength. Having to give tons of the money that you legally earned and rightfully deserve to social programs you may not even use is freedom."

Re:(Don't) Call Your Congressman! (2, Insightful)

ProudClod (752352) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915559)

On the contrary, I think Orwell would be disgusted by the total disregard for fellow humanity that you are suggesting is 'right'.

Re:(Don't) Call Your Congressman! (1)

Alex P Keaton in da (882660) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915527)

Wow- I live in NE Ohio and travel to Canada often. I love Canada, and love many Canadian people that I have met.
Socialism is simply contrary to pure capitalism, which obviously doesn't work (see neighbour, USA). Plenty of imprisonned people with no access to lawyers, lots of people living in complete poverty in major centers, no easy access to medical services for those without insurance, no easy access to pharmeceuticals to those not in the middle and high income brackets.
The U.S. is not pure capitalism, we have many, many regulations on business, but that is beside the point.
I will push aside the temptation I feel to denigrate Canada's school systems based on your spelling errors and lack of knowledge about economics and government. The vast majority of Canadians that I am lucky enough to know are well educated and well informed.
But how can you say capitalism doesn't work? Are you kidding? Do you know anything about economics? (The last is a rhetorical question- the answer clearly is no).
Who are the imprisoned people with no access to lawyers?
People in poverty? Look at the studies- the average family in poverty has a color tv and other ammenities. The poorest people in the U.S. live better than 99% of the people in some countries.
No easy access to medical services? Where did you get that from? Anyone in the U.S. can walk into a hospital, and they will be treated. In fact, illegal aliens have to be treated, and the hospital can't ask about immigration status.
Have you ever been to the U.S.? Where are you getting your facts?

Re:(Don't) Call Your Congressman! (1, Insightful)

PFI_Optix (936301) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915352)

The freedom to do what you want with products you physically own is a great freedom

I really dislike this sentiment.

You physically own a CD. The contents of that CD, you simply own the right to listen to them. Where the RIAA is making a mistake is they are trying to limit your ability to listen to the music with DRM and copy protection, but that's another long rambling post for another time. The music is NOT yours to distribute. Other people invested large amounts of time, money, and resources into recording and producing the music that you paid for...they are the ones who paid for it, they are the ones who have a right to distribute it.

Re:(Don't) Call Your Congressman! (1)

PFI_Optix (936301) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915369)

Something I forgot:

You "physically own" a CD, and you can do whatever you want with that physical object. You can put it in a player, you can give it to a friend, you can smash it with a hammer. You can even put it in a computer and make digital copies of it. But once you make copies of those digital copies and distribute them to other people, you aren't dealing with your physical property at all, are you?

Re:(Don't) Call Your Congressman! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14915446)

If the CD is protected by DRM, you can't legally circumvent that, so you can't even legally make a digital dump of the CD to start with.

Re:(Don't) Call Your Congressman! (1)

fossa (212602) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915457)

...they are the ones who paid for it, they are the ones who have a right to distribute it.

Only as far as society decides to grant (which, at this point, is quite far, causing much deteriment in my opinion).

Re:(Don't) Call Your Congressman! (1)

dada21 (163177) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915496)

I believe (and I write often [blogspot.com] about) that Intellectual Property is nothing more than telling people what they are not allowed to do with their own labor on their own property. Imagine if lawn mowing was protected by copyright or a patent. Crazy? Yet I can't mimic the actions of others on my own property? Try singing Happy Birthday to a group of people -- its illegal.

I don't believe you can criminalize the non-violent actions of consenting adults while on their own property. I don't believe you can criminalize the copying of data as long as you're the one doing the labor.

Labor is only useful and marketable as a NOW situation. When you pay someone for their labor, you either get an immediate product (say a concert or a theater production or a lawn mowed) or you get the knowledge to do the labor yourself.

To use government to stop me or anyone else from mimicing others is criminal, in my mind. I don't believe in the right to force others to pay you residual income on past work.

Re:(Don't) Call Your Congressman! (0, Flamebait)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915354)

I recently spent quite a bit of time researching the Swedes, and I'm very surprised at the amounts of freedoms they had in a country that has typically been considered socialist.


Please expound on the specific freedoms. Hearing from friends - Sweden/Finland/Norway in particular of the European countries are known for being very expensive - mostly stemming from Socialism (but then, in countries without healthcare for the people, is it any cheaper just because you pay a "friendly" corp instead of a government? Most likely not.)

Re:(Don't) Call Your Congressman! (5, Insightful)

Dachannien (617929) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915403)

Actually, writing or calling your Congressperson can be more informative than you're giving it credit for.

  • If your representative has already made up his or her mind, you can tell from the response letter, and then you can plan to vote against them at the next election.
  • If they're keeping an open mind, you can usually tell from their noncommittal response, and thus you'll know that continued pressure may have a positive effect.
  • If they (or their office) are completely clueless, or the issue you're concerned about isn't really on their radar, their seemingly off-topic response will clue you in.

For example, my US Representative here in Cleveland, Ohio, is Stephanie Tubbs Jones. She typically puts most of her emphasis into social programs and other issues that the Congressional Black Caucus tends to work on. Not really much of a standard bearer when it comes to technology issues. But when I sent her office an e-mail opposing the Broadcast Flag a while back, the response I got wasn't the usual anti-piracy line that comes from misunderstanding the issue. That tells me that, while the letter didn't indicate a strong position on the issue, the broadcast flag, digital TV, and other consumer issues are gaining in importance with her.

Admittedly, when it comes to action in Congress, the will of the people often takes a back seat to partisan political wrangling, especially for Congresspeople with, er, higher political aspirations. But if you stay cynical and don't do anything at all, don't be surprised when they don't take your opinion into account.

Re:(Don't) Call Your Congressman! (4, Insightful)

Alex P Keaton in da (882660) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915433)

I just have two points to make:
One, congress isn't going to, in my opinion, swing into action on DRM issues. The reasons may be many, but my guess is because the people who actually vote don't care. Look who votes in the U.S. It is old people. It is a generalization, but would say that to the average 50-60-70-80 year old, intellectual propertyis not a big issue. 20 somethings and other young people don't vote in any kind of appreciable number. So you are going to see prescription drugs and prune farming subsidies as big issues until generation x and y decide to vote.
Two, you say calling your congressman doesn't help? Sure it does. Not if you call (unless you are a big employer or donor), but if you are one of many callers. Politics aside- every congressman has been saying that their phones have been ringing off the hook re the Dubai ports deal. Congressman can't ignore their constituancy- If their phone rings all day, they will have to do something, or be voted out.

Re:(Don't) Call Your Congressman! (4, Interesting)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915445)

Slashdotting phones and fax machines are extremely useful. It got many of hacker out of jail really early. It also recently helped release a man in california that was arrested for growing pot that he used medically to control his rare cancer. he fled to canada to seek asylum and canada being the United States good lap-dog sent him right back to awaiting arms of DEA officers and directly to jail.

He recently was released because of non-stop phone calls to the jail, judge, and municipality causing their phones and fax machines to be 100% useless.

I do not have any links to the above. I listened to it on several radio talk shows at the beginning of this year.

but shashdotting a companies phones and faxes for days will certianly get their attention as well as action.

But the article said... (1)

WormholeFiend (674934) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915485)

that the companies did not return calls for comment.

What makes you think they actually listen to their voicemail messages?

Re:But the article said... (1)

dada21 (163177) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915551)

All it takes is one insider giving out the direct phone number to change that. Even more fun is playing "Find a real extension" on the automated attendent -- I'm surprised how many Presidents of big companies are reachable at extension 101, 1001 or 111.

Arrrrr (5, Funny)

TimeTrav (460837) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915277)

Arrrrr, ye swabs cannot take back me booty so easily!

Re:Arrrrr (1)

se7en11 (833841) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915519)

that's not what she said...

*ducks*

No heros to be cheered at. (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14915281)

The only thing these guys will get done, is Draconian copyright DCMA-like laws to be passed in Schweden.

So they shoot normal people in the foot, even if they use OpenBSD.

thanks alot (1)

matto14 (593826) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915284)

Man i love that sight til now. Thanks alot.

pirate bay URL (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14915286)

http://thepiratebay.org/ [thepiratebay.org]

The Atlantic barrier works both ways huh? (1)

Tibor the Hun (143056) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915287)

I guess the Atlantic protects the europe from its American ally, as well as vice-versa.

But, I think this issue is just waiting for MPAA and RIAA to get off their asses and start a process in Sweden.
Good luck to our pirates in Sweden.

Re:The Atlantic barrier works both ways huh? (2, Funny)

Threni (635302) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915371)

> start a process in Sweden.

Afghanistan - check.
Iraq - check.
Iran - tba.
Sweden - tba.

Re:The Atlantic barrier works both ways huh? (1)

EraserMouseMan (847479) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915373)

Or the **AA will just get laws passed in the US that make it illegal to use the Pirate Bay services. Then they'll go after users one by one and sue them like they did with the domestic file sharing services.

Re:The Atlantic barrier works both ways huh? (2, Interesting)

Stavr0 (35032) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915443)

There is nothing stopping the ??AA from connecting to the tracker, logging the U.S. based IP addresses, then sending out subopenas to the ISPs of said IPs. And haven't they been doing that already?

Long live the pirate bay (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14915290)

as long as they keep having a go at the MPAA some kind of balance will exist. if theyw ere to stop; gods forbid people might actually start taking the MPAA and there digital/legal strong arm tactics seriously.

a pirate's life (-1, Troll)

DigDuality (918867) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915292)

Yo ho, yo ho, a pirate's life for me.
We pillage, we plunder, we rifle, and loot,
Drink up, me 'earties, yo ho.
We kidnap and ravage and don't give a hoot,
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.

Yo ho, yo ho, a pirate's life for me.
We extort, we pilfer, we filch, and sack,
Drink up, me 'earties, yo ho.
Maraud and embezzle, and even high-jack,
Drink up, me 'earties, yo ho.

Yo ho, yo ho, a pirate's life for me.
We kindle and char, inflame and ignite,
Drink up, me 'earties, yo ho.
We burn up the city, we're really a fright,
Drink up, me 'earties, yo ho.

We're rascals, scoundrels, villans, and knaves,
Drink up, me 'earties, yo ho.
We're devils and black sheep, really bad eggs,
Drink up, me 'earties, yo ho.

Yo ho, yo ho, a pirate's life for me.
We're beggars and blighters, ne'er-do-well cads,
Drink up, me 'earties, yo ho.
Aye, but we're loved by our mommies and dads,
Drink up, me 'earties, yo ho.

They'll lose eventually. (1, Insightful)

Spazntwich (208070) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915296)

Money always wins, and in our increasingly global economy, the means for the big studios to finally take them down will eventually come into being. It's just a matter of time.

I'm not saying this is a good thing. I just think it's inevitable.

We demand.. (5, Funny)

dotwhynot (938895) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915297)

Re:We demand.. (5, Funny)

Jamu (852752) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915387)

If you are not the intended recipient, you may not read, ...

Oh crap, I just did. Why didn't they warn me at the start of the message!

Gete your factes straighte (5, Informative)

spyrochaete (707033) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915300)

The Pirate Bay isn't a "file sharing crewe", they're an open bittorrent tracker with a website. They're not a release group like Razor 1911 or The Humble Guys.

From the site's about page:

The Pirate Bay is the worlds largest bittorrent tracker. Bittorrent is a filesharing protocol that in a reliable way enables big and fast file transfers.

...

The Pirate Bay was started by the swedish anti copyright organization Piratbyrån in the late 2003, but is since October 2004 separated and run by dedicated individuals. Using the site is free of charge, but since running it costs money, donations are very much appreciated.

The EU will catch up (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14915304)

There is a nice directive-in-the-making called IPRED2 which criminalises copyright infringement.

Re:The EU will catch up (2, Informative)

gowen (141411) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915557)

Not strictly true. It criminalises copyright infringement on a commercial scale. That's an important distinction. That means it may be possible to share things with your friends, as long as you don't run it like a company (or on the scale of a company).

I think that's reasonable. A little sharing doesn't hurt "content providers" (an ugly phrase) much; wide ranging, large scale, profit making, illegal duplication operations can easily steal genuine sales.

Not illegal (5, Informative)

michrech (468134) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915309)

They aren't hosting any of the content. Only text files (as explained on their web page).

It is not illegal (Again, according to their web page) to host files that *point* to the content. Untill that changes in their country, they will stay alive (also, so long as they can keep their bills paid, that would help... :) )

Re:Not illegal (-1, Troll)

Zeinfeld (263942) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915429)

They aren't hosting any of the content. Only text files (as explained on their web page).

Thats sophistry. Without that information it would not be possible for people to steal the content. The information is made available in that form for the express purpose and with the express intent of facilitating theft.

It is not illegal (Again, according to their web page) to host files that *point* to the content. Untill that changes in their country, they will stay alive (also, so long as they can keep their bills paid, that would help... :) )

Seems like you were not here for the Napster affair then. During the Napster affair there was no shortage of people flaming about how the service was obviously 100% legal. After the company folded it turned out that they had never received even an internal opinion to the effect that the service was legal.

Turns out that the appeals court that gave Napster a stay of execution only did so so that the company could stay around long enough for them to make a landmark ruling on Internet copyright.

Re:Not illegal (1)

qeveren (318805) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915499)

I guess TPB are lucky that they're not in some insane country like the United States, then.

Re:Not illegal (1)

Tarpan (114764) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915507)

It is not illegal (Again, according to their web page) to host files that *point* to the content. Untill that changes in their country, [...]


Seems like you were not here for the Napster affair then.

Seems like you didn't read the whole thing, or believe that US is the only country in the world.

(added bold to original comment to make things clearer)

Re:Not illegal (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14915518)

Wow.. So Sweden while being a Civil Law system is now not only accepting precident but US precident as that!

Yes, but the only things they have (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14915311)

Are ABBA and Ace of Base mp3s.

OT: You know you are old when... (0, Offtopic)

GuyWithLag (621929) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915444)

... your mind can't grasp the idea that ABBA and Ace of Base are considered... vitage?

Swag (1)

BlueBoxSW.com (745855) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915324)

I tend to spend just as much on CD's even though I listen to a lot of P2P shared music. What changes is I might download the latest U2 albulm, but I then spend the money on less known bands, some of which I learn about through P2P.

The whole concept is hear to stay, whether or not PB does or not. Music companies have to stop feeling entitled to our dollars and get back into the business of finding and shaping great talent. Once they became a distribution and promotion medium, not a incubator of talent, they lost their focus.

Re:Swag (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14915414)

Me too: "I tend to spend just as much on CD's even though I listen to a lot of P2P shared music."

Its just that the CDs I buy are blank :)

Whether or not they're wrong... (4, Insightful)

NevDull (170554) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915333)

Whether or not what they do is illegal or immoral, I'm glad to see people questioning their government instead of caving.

Re:Whether or not they're wrong... (0, Flamebait)

cryfreedomlove (929828) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915425)

Gee whiz! Your argument argues for illegal and immoral behavior merely to spite government. If you follow that to its logical extreme then I imagine that you enjoy bar room disputes that end in beheadings and rape. That makes you glad. Right?

Let's just hope then .... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14915460)

Whether or not what they do is illegal or immoral, I'm glad to see people questioning their government instead of caving.

Let's see if you still feel that way if they decide to question the govt's stance on keeping peoples personal information personal (like cc#'s, medical info, etc). It's always cool until they do something that affects YOU negatively, then it's not so cool any more.

Re:Whether or not they're wrong... (1)

magarity (164372) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915486)

Contract and intellectual property laws govern how private individual entities behave towards one another; it has nothing to do with "questioning government". You comment is like saying you're glad the neighborhood teens blast hip-hop at 150db out of their cars despite a quiet-time ordinance because it teaches them to "question government" when really it just teaches them to have no respect for others.
 
It makes perfect sense that music/movies/software companies want their cut for making whatever product even though their distribution and/or pricing models may suck from some points of view. Only the most hard core socialists think otherwise.

How to be popular (-1, Troll)

Zeinfeld (263942) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915336)

The sad part is that a large number of slashdotters will convince themselves that this type of thing is good despite the fact that the site is very clearly engaged in theft.

Regardless of the rationalization there is no difference taking content this way and going to a store and stealing a CD or DVD.

It costs $200 million to make some movies. If people stop paying to make the movies then that type of movie will not get made in the future.

You cannot make a big budget action movie by 'touring', 'selling merchandise' or any of the self-satisfied rationalizations people have suggested that musicians turn to.

Re:How to be popular (4, Insightful)

10Ghz (453478) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915355)

The sad part is that a large number of slashdotters will convince themselves that this type of thing is good despite the fact that the site is very clearly engaged in theft.


really? What are they stealing?

Re:How to be popular (0)

cryfreedomlove (929828) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915399)

They are storing the creative work that resulted from several man years of effort and the tremendous financial risk the producers took to produce a film.

Re:How to be popular (1)

hplasm (576983) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915447)

No, they are not.

there is no content on the site.

Re:How to be popular (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14915501)

No they are not. They are storing something that points to somewhere that is storing the creative work that resulted from several man years of effort and the tremendous financial risk the producers took to produce a film.

Re:How to be popular (1)

muhgcee (188154) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915533)

I believe the original poster was referring to the end user, but I could be wrong.

Re:How to be popular (1)

muhgcee (188154) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915515)

Yes. That is called copyright infringement. copyright infringement != stealing

We can have a seperate argument about the morality of both, but for now it is good just to get our terminology straight.

Re:How to be popular (1)

qeveren (318805) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915528)

That's where you fail. They're a bittorrent tracker. They don't host any copyrighted material at all (other than what they generate themselves).

Re:How to be popular (1)

kahrhoff (580438) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915357)

they are not stealing. they are posting text files.

Re:How to be popular (2, Insightful)

digitaldc (879047) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915367)

It costs $200 million to make some movies. If people stop paying to make the movies then that type of movie will not get made in the future.

Well with Bombs like Taxi, Duece Bigalow, and Dukes of Hazzard, this may not be such a bad thing, eh?

Re:How to be popular (4, Interesting)

erroneus (253617) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915382)

No, I'm already convinced. It's good.

For all the damage these industries cause honest and would-be honest customers, they deserve a true thorn in their sides. For all the monopolistic and oligopolistic crap they pull; For all the price-fixing and other dirty tricks; For all the innocent people they have attacked with their lawsuit crusades. We have no effective weapon against their activities since they have already bought all the politicians that are for sale. All we have is our defiance.

It's good even if it's not good enough.

Re:How to be popular (5, Informative)

Stavr0 (35032) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915383)

The sad part is that a large number of slashdotters will convince themselves that this type of thing is good despite the fact that the site is very clearly engaged in theft. For the umpteenth time, no. Not theft. Copyright violation, or 'piracy', the land-based kind, where nobody gets boarded, killed and thrown to the sharks. And at that, they are not engaged in 'piracy' either. They are at most 'enablers' or 'accomplices'.

Re:How to be popular (2, Insightful)

TFGeditor (737839) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915408)

"Regardless of the rationalization there is no difference taking content this way and going to a store and stealing a CD or DVD."

But that is not what Pirate Bay does. What they do is the equivalent to you telling someone, "Hey, they have music CDs at the corner store." If the person then goes to the corner store and steals a CD, well, that's his problem, not yours.

Re:How to be popular (1)

dedeman (726830) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915420)

"If people stop paying to make the movies then that type of movie will not get made in the future."

Good, perhaps Hollywood will have an incentive to produce, market, and release good movies, instead of expensive movies. It strikes me that you are the type of person to believe that the budget of a movie is an indicator of quality. You probably also believe that movies *always* net a loss, because they *always* post a loss, no matter the ticket sales, merchandizing revenue, distribution costs, etc.

So, which did you like better; Garfield, Fat Albert, or Stealth? I heard that Stealth cost a whole bunch to make.

So, stealing = bad, pointing to dl'able file = bad. Making $200 mil movie = good.

The big budget flicks will never go away, regardless of piracy. Unfortunately.

Re:How to be popular (2, Insightful)

epiphani (254981) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915423)

The sad part is that I have to go online to a swedish website in order to download the TV show that I missed last night. Look at iTunes. Give people a legal way to purchase things online, and people will use it. This is not about the $200 million dollars it takes to make a movie, its about the $1.50 the company could have made from me by providing an equally simple method of getting the content I want.

As the son of a professional musician, one who is barely known outside our small community, I can confidently say that there are plenty of other ways to make money without touring or selling merchandise. And $200 million movies will still get made, assuming the movie studios can keep up with the buisness models of the future.

Re:How to be popular (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14915426)

What $200 million movie didn't make a profit? Is there a shred of evidence that the reason for that was because people were pirating it?

Re:How to be popular (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14915461)

Waterworld failed because of pirates.

Re:How to be popular (1)

Rob T Firefly (844560) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915434)

It costs $200 million to make some movies. If people stop paying to make the movies then that type of movie will not get made in the future.

This is as it should be, supply and demand. If a movie interests the public, they'll pay to see it in a theater with a big screen. If it's an uninteresting film that need not have been made, they won't get those ticket dollars, the movie flops and the studios hopefully learn that this isn't the sort of movie people want at the moment. I'm a bit weary of the entertaiment industry acting like it deserves our patronage whether or not the product is actually worth it.

You cannot make a big budget action movie by 'touring', 'selling merchandise' or any of the self-satisfied rationalizations people have suggested that musicians turn to.

But you can make it by selling enough tickets, tie-in merchandise, and DVDs. If this model fails for a particular film, perhaps it's a sign that this sort of film really isn't successful.

If my four-hour drama about a team of underwater basket-weavers who fight crime and play rock music is a failure, I'd take it as a sign I should maybe scrap plans for its two sequels and TV miniseries. I wouldn't keep on making them, and whine about piracy when they fail.

Re:How to be popular (4, Insightful)

Kadin2048 (468275) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915442)

No, these guys are more like the stores that sell the little razorblade devices that shoplifters use to slash the shrinkwrap on CDs at the record store very quickly, and pocket the disc. (They were a whole lot more common before a lot of stores went to using those hard shells that have to be broken open by the cashier.) Or the head shop that sells crack pipes "for tobacco use only."

They're not actually doing the stealing/drugs for you, but they're clearly facilitating it.

That said, I don't really give a damn. I can't work up much moral outrage for some kid who rips off Vivendi or Universal, whether its using bittorrent or a tiny sliver of metal. Leech it on your parents' cable modem, or stuff it in your pants, the only question I have is whether by pirating their media, are you still indirectly supporting their grip on content creation and distribution, by giving them free advertising and mindshare. I think the jury's still out on that.

But I save my outrage for crimes that have actual victims, of which there are far too many anyway.

Re:How to be popular (1)

Dachannien (617929) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915497)

I can't work up much moral outrage for some kid who rips off Vivendi or Universal, whether its using bittorrent or a tiny sliver of metal.

I find it much easier to work up moral outrage against kids who shoplift, since retail isn't a particularly high-margin business compared to movie/music publishing. When someone pirates a CD, *maybe* it costs the record label a sale and maybe it doesn't. But when someone lifts a CD from Worst Buy, the record label already has their pound of flesh, while it *definitely* costs the retailer the amount they spent to wholesale the CD that got stolen.

Re:How to be popular (3, Interesting)

David Webb (883154) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915452)

If there were no movies and no t.v. due to piracy? I would cheer that the world had taken a shift for the better. I on occasion watch movies, however our entertainment options are used to placate us as a people. This way we don't think about our own failings. Nor do we strive to improve ourselves educationally and compete against the wealthy for the better jobs. We stand by as companies institute 401ks and do away with defined benefits plans. As we are sold out to big business and big government. As we're told that we don't need unions. That gold and silver are things we don't want to invest in. That we should buy buy buy but you better not go bankrupt! If we could get rid of movies and T.V. then perhaps people would think for themselves a little more and be more conserned with quality education. Keeping our jobs here and not outsourced. Concerned about invasion of privacy by the NSA, FBI and whomever else wishes to use the power that they were entrusted with in a corrupt and manipulative manner. If Piracy could bring down our now traditional big businesses then let piracy reign. I understand that many people would suffer but this would only bring about a greater good. We need to teach big business and big government that the people as a whole still make and break and rewrite the rules for the greater good.

Re:How to be popular (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14915474)

"""
Regardless of the rationalization there is no difference [betwixt] taking content this way and going to a store and stealing a CD or DVD.
"""

Hmmm... Interesting point. Since "my friend" is downloading an already decrypted/region-free AVI, "my friend" isn't in violation of the DMCA. So, that's one less crime "my friend" is not committing from the normal rip-a-rented-movie routine.

Re:How to be popular (2, Insightful)

Rocketship Underpant (804162) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915481)

"... there is no difference taking content this way and going to a store and stealing a CD or DVD."

There is an obvious difference: stealing a CD deprives the store of a physical object they bought and owned. Copying data deprives no one of anything. Feel free to preach the evils of copying, but saying there's no difference merely displays ignorance.

"If people stop paying to make [$200 million] movies then that type of movie will not get made in the future."

The imaginary "right" for Hollywood to make $200 million movies at a guaranteed profit does not trump my right to copy and share speech, data, and information with my fellow humans. I reject the arguments of copyright, and only by using threats and violence against people like me can you, the RIAA/MPAA, and their bribed politicians attempt to stop it.

Re:How to be popular (1)

stinerman (812158) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915510)

If people stop paying to make the movies then that type of movie will not get made in the future.

That is fine with me. They need me more than I need new entertainment. I'm betting they're going to blink before I do.

Re:How to be popular (4, Interesting)

richie2000 (159732) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915523)

there is no difference taking content this way and going to a store and stealing a CD or DVD.

*sigh* Yes, there is. If I have a hammer and you also want a hammer so you copy my hammer by manufacturing one yourself, just like mine, have you just stolen my hammer then? Even though I still have my hammer, right here? Because that's actually what you're saying.

You cannot make a big budget action movie by 'touring', 'selling merchandise' or any of the self-satisfied rationalizations people have suggested that musicians turn to.

No, but you can't realistically build a real movie theater at home either. Any way value is added, it can be exploited to drive sales of a good or a service. In Singapore, movie theaters have luxury seats and serve meals as an added value to the movie. Economically, there is no longer any added value in making a copy so it should not be used as the basis for value. Economics 101.

References:
Mindjack - Piracy is good? [mindjack.com]
International Herald Tribune - Imagine a world without copyright [iht.com]
A History And Possible Future Of Cinema [michaeldvd.com.au]
First Monday - Piercing the myths of p2p [firstmonday.org]
TV Week - NBC: iPod Boosts Prime Time [tvweek.com]
Stealing Music [catallarchy.net]
Roderick T. Long - The Libertarian Case Against Intellectual Property Rights [libertariannation.org]

The future of movies (2, Interesting)

typical (886006) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915525)

The sad part is that a large number of slashdotters will convince themselves that this type of thing is good despite the fact that the site is very clearly engaged in theft.

Copyright infringement. If you're complaining about people playing mind games, you can at least have the decency to avoid doing the same thing yourself in the same sentence.

It costs $200 million to make some movies. If people stop paying to make the movies then that type of movie will not get made in the future.

This is the real issue. Not whether something is "right" or "wrong" -- those are just social norms that have been instilled in people -- but the pragmatic issues.

Currently, the fact that people pay to see movies allows the funding of the creation of said movies. If you endorse infringement, you need one of a couple of justifications:

(a) It's going to happen anyway -- in the presence of a worldwide system (the Internet) designed to cheaply replicate and distribute data, content funded on the predicate that duplication is hard and expensive cannot exist. That means an end is going to come to this funding system, at least for movies in the $200 million scale. Regardless of the methods used, social pressure to not infringe is not going to be effective. We will not be able to make movies that require $200 million in resources in the future -- movie prices will have to drop far enough that the convenience is worth the purchase. Future movies will have to be more thrift-oriented -- if this causes a drop in the enjoyment factor of movies, then that drop will occur. I know some people that dislike those "big budget action movies" that would probably fall into (a).

(b) Infringing movie usage does not damage movie sales. People will continue to go to theaters as the same level as before (well, sans the bite taken away by home theaters), but just spend a larger amount of time viewing movies, as they will infringe on some additional movies.

(c) Movies will continue to make as much money, but by using alternate approaches (like product placement or commercials) that are not affected by redistribution.

(d) Movies can be sold on a viable non-redistributable medium, but some type of DRM-enabled device will be used and this one will actually work.

Remember that, as technologies change, policies we use have adapted to fit the times. I'm quite certain that, in one form or another, the movie-making industry will be around in fifty years. The printing press, the cassette recorder, the VHS tape, home entertainment systems -- all have had significant impact on how content was provided, but content continued to be provided via one mechanism or another.

For example, the drive-in theater is pretty much dead today because of TVs and movie-playing systems at home. People rent tapes, which was a mechanism that really wasn't expected by anyone to make a lot of money at one point (and, in fact, was expected to kill the movie industry at one point).

It may be by simply instituting policy capable of fighting off all infringement; my personal guess is that the movie industry will instead morph and twist and adapt in one way or another. It may even be one that we haven't dreamed of yet. History supports this idea.

Re:How to be popular (2, Insightful)

SenorAmor (719735) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915526)

It costs $200 million to make some movies. If people stop paying to make the movies then that type of movie will not get made in the future.

It's because of $200 million movies that it now costs $7 for a small soda in a theater. If directors were more concerned about putting actual content in their movies instead of million-dollar special effects every 17 seconds, we'd have a shitton more movies with budgets like 'Blair Witch'.

Personally, I'd be glad if they stopped making $200 million movies. Then maybe theater ticket prices would drop and people wouldn't have to resort to downloading movies illegally.

Whiners! (1)

erroneus (253617) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915339)

When finally reached for comment, representatives of **AA groups were reportedly in tears saying, "...they won't bow to our threats and demands! We don't know what else to do!!"

Uh... STUPID! BUY them out. With all the money those guys dump on lawyers, they should simply BUY their operation with a contract stating they will never again be involved in such activity and, of course, cannot ever discuss the terms. They would silently disappear and people would fear the worst had happened.

Re:Whiners! (0, Flamebait)

donutface (847957) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915439)

That has to be the stupidest thing I have heard all day, can you imagine how many other people would try and open up torrent sites just to get shut down and a bit of money for it? Even if the terms cant be discussed, you should know damn well news will spread

Re:Whiners! (0)

cHALiTO (101461) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915494)

yay!

1) set up torrent site with copyrighted material
2) piss off MPAA/RIAA
3) wait to get bought
4) ???
5) PROFIT!!

If they buy out the pirate bay, I predict gazillions of torrent sites sprouting spontaneously everywhere (or at least in sweden) ;)

hmm. (4, Insightful)

user24 (854467) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915340)

from tfa:

"Copyright laws are being enforced and upheld in countries all over the world and when you facilitate the illegal file swapping of millions of people around the world, you are subject to those laws", (said MPAA spokeswoman Kori Bernards)

so ISPs are liable?
computer manufacturers are liable?
the guy who designed your file system?
soundcard makers? video cards? screens?

of course, it all depends how far you're willing to take 'facilitating', but that statement just sounds dodgy, especially considering they're talking about applying US law internationally...

Re:hmm. (1)

qeveren (318805) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915545)

The US is the world, silly!

Long Live the Pirate Bay! (2, Interesting)

David Webb (883154) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915344)

it's great to see someone that is anti esteblishment stay strong and alive in the face of big business and big government. Power to the People!

No success in Swedish courts (5, Funny)

Billosaur (927319) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915379)

Viborg said that no one has successfully indicted The Pirate Bay or sued its operators in Swedish courts.

RIAA Lawyer: We are petitioning the court to shut down this illegal operation, called The Pirate Bay, on the grounds they are trafficking in illegally obtained and downloaded material.

Swedish Judge: Worrrr dooooo ishky dishky mooooovvvviesss kannnnshhhhhh veeeeeeeee downshky looooooodshky?

RIAA Lawyer: What?

Swedish Judge: Worrrr dooooo ishky dishky mooooovvvviesss kannnnshhhhhh veeeeeeeee downshky looooooodshky?

RIAA Lawyer: I don't understand!

Swedish Judge: Caaaaaaaaasssssshhhh dushmiskked, bork, bork, bork!

Hope they stay well... (1, Insightful)

ursabear (818651) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915384)

It seems (to me, a musician, not an intellectual property lawyer) that what they're doing is technically safe from getting nailed. However... laws governing the physical world are rife with clauses concerning "aiding and abetting."

I think I'd probably wager that the entertainment industry will discern or lobby a means of providing either law or precedence that will enable the industry to go after folks that enable non-sanctioned file sharing services. Has there already been precedence for shutting down servers like The Pirate Bay? For now, it seems, hosting and transmitting (catalogues of?) information isn't getting slammed.

The pirates are here to stay (2, Insightful)

pheco (957437) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915390)

No matter how many letters they send out calling for a shut down, no matter how many people they fine/arrest, no matter how many people they take to court, the record and movie industry should realize they are never going to stop bootlegs. It's like the war on drugs, except 10x more pointless.

Further up, further in. (5, Insightful)

Chas (5144) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915391)

Apologies to C.S. Lewis.

Okay, this is a tracker site. It's going to be harder to justify pulling the whole site down because of the torrents it tracks.

However, if the companies are determined enough, they'll get the site yanked.

First they go to the tracker site itself.
Then they go to their provider.
Then they go to the provider upstream.
And up, and up the chain until they reach someone who WILL yank the plug.

Granted, if they proceed above a multi-homed provider, they have to go to an increasing number of upstream providers. At which point, it becomes a MASSIVE hassle. But, as I said, it all depends on how determined they are to down a site.

Not that I'd know anything about downing a site in this fashion....

Sweden vs US Capitalism (5, Interesting)

Bluude (822878) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915448)

My favorite was when they moved the servers to a new location across town. They even put up a GPS map showing their exact location so everyone would know how soon the site would be back up.

They must believe their country will protect them instead of hunting them down and arresting them.

I wonder if their government will still protect them when the US threatens to impose trade sanctions if they do not get rid of The Pirate Bay. Janet Reno did that with Australia and they caved soon after. Now Australia has some of the toughest copyright laws in the world. I think they are even harsher than the US equivalents.

Re:Sweden vs US Capitalism (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14915508)

Ahh, I saw that too. These people are pretty daring in doing so. I wonder if the **AA cartel would hire hitmen to down the server. Accidents do happen, you know...

it would seem like the only way to bring them down, for the time being; albeit, a bit on the illegal side...

yarh, futurama has it (1, Funny)

joe 155 (937621) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915487)

Too late I realise, my children are my only real treasure...

First you get the money, then you get the power (1)

theSpaceCow (920198) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915505)

I wholeheartedly support TPB in their continued legal tensions, and I wholeheartedly support their goals and ideals, even if what they were doing were against the law. The thing that bothers me about this situation, though, is the fact that our Swedish friends' greatest legal mind is a law student. Maybe even a kid about my age. Frankly, I'd be scared out of my wits if the American media cartel / extortion machines were knocking at my door, law or no law.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, since American corporations write the laws here, and since our capitalist warlords have no problem negotiating international deals in the name of the almighty dollar, how long will it be until the USA starts making politicorporate deals with the Swedish industry / government like the ones we've had (or tried) with China, UAE, India, and any other place with oil or cheap labor?

If they fly to the U.S. (2, Interesting)

mindaktiviti (630001) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915535)

Would they be prosecuted? And if so, then that would be a bad thing.

I'm just curious in case they ever in their life times ever want to visit the U.S. for whatever reason, and then they end up being on some terrorist watch list because of their involvement with the Pirate Bay.

From the pdf announcement:

...Newsgroups are electronic bulletin boards which in recent years have become a major source of pirated content as users are able to attach movie, music and games files to their messages. The following is a list of the sites being sued by the MPAA and its member companies.

Recent years? Try over 10 years ago. (from my knowledge anyway, probably closer to 15-20)

Perfectly legal in Sweden. (5, Informative)

Trash (3895) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915544)

By Swedish this is perfectly legal. Some years ago a guy was sued for posting links to mp3's on his web page. And the Swedish court desided that it was nothing wrong with that. He didn't ditribute the mp3's only showing were they where. And the same thing is pirate bay doing now.

Hope my english is better the Swede in the muppets show.

Did anyone else... (1)

stevenharman (841350) | more than 8 years ago | (#14915555)

read that as "The Pirate e-Bay is Here to Stay?"

I had images of eye patches, rusty swords, and Davey Jones' Locker for sale... Arghhh!

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