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Father of Wiki Speaks on Collaborative Development

ScuttleMonkey posted more than 8 years ago | from the many-helping-hands dept.

55

An anonymous reader writes "eWeek is reporting that Ward Cunningham, creator of the wiki, has predicted an encouraging future for open source and collaborative development. From the article: "Cunningham, who is director of committer community development at the Eclipse Foundation, said open-source software will continue to grow and thrive because it enables user innovation. '[...] No end user wants to be a programmer; they just want to get their jobs done,' he said. But more and more people with powerful tools and powerful languages will be able to work together to build better systems, he said."

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55 comments

First post (-1, Troll)

programgeek (726420) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962103)

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Re:First post (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14962330)

Save morality http://www.nopornpledge.com/ [nopornpledge.com]

Very Interesting Article (4, Interesting)

linguizic (806996) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962105)

Here's an interesting quote from the article:
"(Microsoft) has to inch toward this community style development, otherwise it would be irresponsible to their stock holders," Cunningham said. "What they do and say is in the best interest of their stockholders. ... Microsoft has to be more cautious. And IBM has to be more cautious. Even as a developer in the Eclipse foundation there's a certain amount of busy work that a developer has to do, like keeping an intellectual property log and stuff like that. But this is what you have to do."

I thought this was an interesting angle arguing for OSS. I think many times OSS'ers seem too anti-corporate (myself included) to have thought of this angle.

I must say that I lost a very tiny bit of respect for him when he said that he "has nothing but respect for Microsoft", but my respect was pretty high to begin with so he didn't go down too far.

fuck you fucking ball bag (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14962112)

suck that dick whore
fucking faggot

Re:Very Interesting Article (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14962138)

ur a greasy homo.

Re:Very Interesting Article (2, Interesting)

hpcanswers (960441) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962347)

I must say that I lost a very tiny bit of respect for him when he said that he "has nothing but respect for Microsoft", but my respect was pretty high to begin with so he didn't go down too far.


How much respect could you have possibly had? If you truly respected him, your reaction would have been, "I don't agree with all he has to say, but since I have a lot of respect for the guy, I'll hear him out." There, now that's much more respectful than, "I don't agree with all he has to say, so he's an idiot."

Talking out of both sides of his mouth (5, Interesting)

BadAnalogyGuy (945258) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962108)

The conundrum is that end users want to consume something that is already available, but do not want to create it themselves. Once they decide to contribute, they cease being end users and become creators. If what he says is true, the shaolin and the wu-tang could be dangerous. Creators are a different breed than end users, though, of course, the two overlap considerably. However, if we want to say that end users don't want 'to program', then why would we assume that they want to contribute as well?

Reality, of course, provides the evidence that what he says is false. People are not only happy to consume others' works, but also motivated to create their own works. Whether their own works are frivolous opinions or heavy-duty scholarly works, people are motivated to create by the same desire they have to procreate. Since computer geeks are somewhat stunted in their ability to do the latter due to emotional and mental disabilities, they seek their immortality by creating very public works such as articles on Wikipedia, Open Source applications, and (godhelpme) posts on Slashdot.

Re:Talking out of both sides of his mouth (2, Interesting)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962152)

You need look no further than Microsoft Office to see that end users are quite willing to program. The problem is that us developers make it so hard to program by not giving simple examples or adequate documentation. People use Open Office, but no-one uses the VBA like scripting language in Open Office.

Re:Talking out of both sides of his mouth (1)

iamdrscience (541136) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962199)

Whether their own works are frivolous opinions or heavy-duty scholarly works
though, of course, the two overlap considerably.

Re:Talking out of both sides of his mouth (1)

iabervon (1971) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962383)

Almost everybody is a creator at some level and an end-user at all the other levels. The authors of academic papers generally don't want to write their own document formatting systems. The authors of document formatting systems don't want to write their own compilers. The authors of compilers don't want to write their own text editors. The authors of text editors don't want to write their own version control systems. The authors of version control systems don't want to write their own diff utilities. The authors of diff utilities don't want to comes up with their own comparison algorithms. The inventors of comparison algorithms write academic papers about them.

The point is that people who are trying to create something depend on not having to use their creativity on making tools suitable for their needs. It may be okay to do a bit of work on the tools to make them a lot more effective by making some small changes (to configure them for some particular usage), but they need to basically work without any attention, and the minor changes need to be easy.

Re:Talking out of both sides of his mouth (2, Insightful)

thepotoo (829391) | more than 8 years ago | (#14963818)

Since computer geeks are somewhat stunted in their ability to do the latter due to emotional and mental disabilities, they seek their immortality by creating very public works such as [...] posts on Slashdot.

...Are you saying that, all these times I've modded goatse posts down, I was really blocking the ability of artists to express themselves?
Oh, God! What have I done?

Re:Talking out of both sides of his mouth (1)

cerberusss (660701) | more than 8 years ago | (#14963826)

The conundrum is that end users want to consume something that is already available [...] Since computer geeks are somewhat stunted in their ability to do the latter due to emotional and mental disabilities, they seek their immortality [...]

Carrie? Carrie Bradshaw? Is that you?

Re:Talking out of both sides of his mouth (1)

identity0 (77976) | more than 8 years ago | (#14970632)

Sorry, but that is a really incorrect way of categorizing people - it's like saying that one can be a father or a son, but not both at the same time. Or doing transit planning and categorizing people as 'drivers' or 'pedestrians', without accounting for the fact that people will choose one in some circumstances, and the other in different circumstances.

All contributors are users first, but not all users end up as contributors. Obviously, one needs to be familiar with the software or wiki before one starts putting one's own ideas in, so all contributors must be users. There is no point in chiding people for being only users, because one never knows if people will end up contributing things in the future.

karma++ (-1)

sxtxixtxcxh (757736) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962116)

Re:karma++ (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14962157)

someone should see to it that you are killed

Re:karma++ (1)

sxtxixtxcxh (757736) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962227)

i'm workin on it...

Re:karma++ (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14962237)

If you are really serious, then maybe check these guys [hitman.us] out.

whoring+++ (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14962162)

Question - yes, me in the back! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Crowhead (577505) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962134)

Excuse me, uh, Ward Cunningham - you know it just struck me - your first and last name are shared by two pop-culture culture icons who also live idealic lives - Ward Clever and (Take your pick) Cunningham. Anyway, back to my question - what's it like in that ivory tower and where do you get your back scratchers?

As a frequent Wiki editor, I'd just like to say .. (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14962141)

Daddy!!!

Re:As a frequent Wiki editor, I'd just like to say (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14964074)

As a frequent Wiki editor you normally say, "Where did you get your furry costume?"

or

"Come here, little boy. I've got some candy. Want a ride?"

No end user wants to be a programmer? (5, Insightful)

pontifier (601767) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962149)

Programmers are end users as well. I see a trend of allowing more and more advaced programming concepts to creep into content creation programs to allow finer control of the end result.

Re:No end user wants to be a programmer? (1)

Antiocheian (859870) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962529)

That's right, but have you noticed how very few people use these programming/scripting tools ?

We're long-past the dark ages of IT (4, Insightful)

jd (1658) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962168)

It is true that no end-user wants to be a programmer, but that is because they have a really warped understanding of what a programmer is. A programmer, in the loosest sense of the worst, is simply someone who feeds in a series of instructions (usually including decisions) that result in a task being performed.


Under this definition, anyone who writes anything of any complexity in a modern wordprocessor is a programmer. Modern WP packages can be regarded as shells in which the operator enters instructions (literal formatting commands, such as right-justify, or bold), decisions (floating tables, grammar/spellcheck), loops/recursion (automatic table of contents, automatic indexing), etc. On WP's like Wordperfect, you could actually make all of the commands visible. It frightened users to do that, because it showed just how much coding they were actually doing.


The power of high-level tools, then, is not to help the user avoid programming, it is to help the user avoid seeing what they're programming. It isn't to do the user's work for them, it is to allow the user to sidestep their phobias long enough to get the work done.


One of the follies of fourth- and fifth-generation programming languages was the assumption that programmers wanted their programming hidden from them as well. It is certainly true that software designers need to have a high level of abstraction, as they don't need to know the details (and shouldn't). It is also true that there are special cases in programming where you need minor scripting changes to have a big impact on the end result. In these cases, high level programming is entirely correct. The rest of the time, when details are everything, you don't want any more abstraction than you can possibly get away with.


For end-users, though, applications really need to be extremely high-level programming languages and very little more. That is why Word (which is essentially a scripting engine with a bunch of macros pre-programmed in) is useful to end-users, even though AmiPro is technically superior and Ventura Publisher is much more impressive. Word is a programming tool that can do anything Visual Basic can do, whereas the others are only applications. The user may claim to hate programming, but they can claim it all they like. The fact remains that they pick the programming tool over the "pure" application - when it is disguised cleverly enough.

Re:We're long-past the dark ages of IT (2, Insightful)

aCapitalist (552761) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962221)

One of the follies of fourth- and fifth-generation programming languages was the assumption that programmers wanted their programming hidden from them as well. It is certainly true that software designers need to have a high level of abstraction, as they don't need to know the details (and shouldn't). It is also true that there are special cases in programming where you need minor scripting changes to have a big impact on the end result. In these cases, high level programming is entirely correct. The rest of the time, when details are everything, you don't want any more abstraction than you can possibly get away with.

The fallicies of 4th, 5th generation programming (hmm, reminds me of that big 5th generation japanese flop), were the same fallacies of COBOL - that every joe middle-level business manager would be willing and able to hack code, even if it was in some 1960s interpretation of natural langauge programming. My contention is that you don't need to dumb down the language to allow higher-level constructs or even visual programming. Smalltalk/Squeak (yeah, i'm being fanboy lately) can allow that and also allow you dive down into the bowels of the kernel to do whatever you want.

We're long-past the dark ages of Generalizing (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14962486)

"The power of high-level tools, then, is not to help the user avoid programming, it is to help the user avoid seeing what they're programming. It isn't to do the user's work for them, it is to allow the user to sidestep their phobias long enough to get the work done."

No, the point of high-level tools is to allow the user to focus on the domain their problem lies in, while avoiding extraneous material. That's why you'll be seeing more DSL's and other tools.

Extranious (1)

jd (1658) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962589)

Such a wonderful word. Long, flowing, and very flexible in definition. Arguably, "extraneous" means anything that is extra to the problem at hand. There are, however, only two ways of knowing what is extra - either you've specified the problem completely, or you've solved the problem completely. In every other possible case, there may be additional requirements not yet considered. Without a complete specification, the domain is undefined.


Precisely for this reason, you absolutely do NOT want a product that offers the smallest usable subset of facilities. Rather, you want a product that offers the absolute maximum in flexibility, whilst only showing the smallest usable subset of facilities that apply at that time.


Sure, people will say they don't want to have lots of options, but what they are really saying is that they don't want lots of options all at the same time. They will want the options there, because they know they're likely to need them eventually. They just don't want the options in the way until then.


When people tackle a specific problem, very often that problem will turn out to be something other than what was originally anticipated. It may branch, it may twist and turn, it may leap into a completely different domain at any time. If we assume a typical problem solver, who has no experience with formal analysis, the only way to know what space the problem goes through and to know what domain the solution lies in, is to go step-by-step through the whole process, methodically. In so doing, they will not know what they will require until they require it. This is also true of problems for which formal analysis is either impossible or beyond existing methods.


Abstraction for the sole purpose of manufacturing tunnel vision has never helped anyone outside of the eyeglass industry.

Re:We're long-past the dark ages of IT (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14963163)

So wait a second. Are you saying that Word is Emacs?

Re:We're long-past the dark ages of IT (1)

jd (1658) | more than 8 years ago | (#14964210)

Emacs with WYSIWYG LaTeX support, but basically yeah.

OSS is just the outgrowth of the public internet (2, Interesting)

aCapitalist (552761) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962172)

It was inevitable and of course it has a bright future. We don't need anybody to tell us this. Those of us that used to play around on BBSs back in the early 80s on our Apple IIes, and such, could see that.

What we do need to realize is that closed-source/proprietary has its role as well. If the goal is "freedom" for the user then that has to encompass all the tools available. The GPL and the strong leadership of Torvalds has insured a level playing field for that above it on the software stack but we need to be wary of Stallman/FSF fascist dogma. Open Source tends to work very well at the lower levels of the software stack - glibc, the kernel, other libraries, but we need to recognize that we need to provide incentives to innovate at the ever higher-ends of the software stack as well. I consider the rather luke-warm adoption of desktop linux (yes it is, I've been using it a work for the past 8 years) to be indicative of both factionalization and the perils of "giving everything away" at the higher-end of the software stack.

I would keep an eye out on croquet [opencroquet.org] (or something in that realm), for what will be the next leap in collaboration. Definitely check out this [sonicfoundry.com] recent video (might be windows only). I consider this web 3.0

Re:OSS is just the outgrowth of the public interne (1)

hpcanswers (960441) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962319)

I'm glad to see someone else take Stallman to task. It wouldn't call him fascist though; he's more of a communist. He is to the services-based economy what Marx was to the manufacturing-based economy. Little does the FSF realize that profits are an incentive to create value for society. Open source software is inherently commodity, and thus produces little innovation. Compare that to Mac OS X, Solaris, and yes, even Windows.

I absolutely agree that lower-level software probably ought to be open source purely because of the commodity issue. Most higher-level software, from consumer-oriented entertainment products—video games, etc.—to business-targeted programs—financial systems, multimedia authoring, etc.—will tend to be commercial though.

Regarding items like croquet [opencroquet.org] , it is pretty risky to "start over." Intel tried this with Itanium and no one bought it. AMD instead built on the existing x86 to produce Opteron, which was a huge success. They followed the advice of Newton and stood on the shoulders of a giant. If croquet succeeds, it will be a major coup. But the odds are against them; many people try to one-up the wheel and end up reinventing the square.

Re:OSS is just the outgrowth of the public interne (1)

hswerdfe (569925) | more than 8 years ago | (#14964345)

He is to the services-based economy what Marx was to the manufacturing-based economy

I think you don't understand Stallman's views on server communication.
he, is fine with networking with servers that do not distribute code.

service oriented Arcitectures are not anti GPL cause you can Mod the code on your server. and as long as you don't distribute the code you don't have to release you changes.

mind you, for your sake he would hope that you have access to the code, running on your server.
but that is your issue.

at least that is my understanding of Stallman's views.
I am after all not Him.
nor do I share his view 1:1.

an hypercard for 21 century... (5, Informative)

soapdog (773638) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962173)

Ward talks about how he used hypercard to create his first draft of the wiki... hypercard was very easy to use and its sad to notice how apple failed to notice its potential. For those wanting to try a new hypercard-like environment with all the bells and whistles we come to take as granted such as network support, rdbms support, multimedia, point your browsers to Runtime Revolution http://www.runrev.com/> a wonderful tool. It's also cross platfrom, write your stacks once, build to win32, macs, linux, freebsd, solaris. PS: actually I coded a simple wiki in rev in about 30 lines. And it is graphical! :-) Cheers folks

Re:an hypercard for 21 century... (1)

killjoe (766577) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962615)

apple has a history of abandoning really cool technology. Hypercard, dylan, webobjects, newton etc.

Re:an hypercard for 21 century... (1)

marcello_dl (667940) | more than 8 years ago | (#14979896)

Funny thing is, Hypercard had taken off, then was left to wither. Relational database capabilities in the hands of end users was dangerous to the then closed source only software industry, maybe?

Captain of the obvious drive (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14962250)

This is just hero-worshipping cock-sucking. If I had a dollar for every cum-drizzling 'revelation' that came (no pun intended) out of the mouth of every internet whore who invented something that "made it", I'd be retired. You know, I have really grown to hate these assholes who think that just because they were in the right place at the right time, that they are certified geniuses. This guy is predicting the future - FROM THE FUCKING PAST. Open source will grow????? Well, I'll be, Aunt Maybel, you think the sun will rise tomorrow too?

Its not all good (2, Insightful)

Umbral Blot (737704) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962263)

I know we all love to hype collaborative devlopment and the open source model, but in all honesty not everyone is cut out to be a programmer, and programmers come in differnt levels of ability. I will admit freely that I am not one of the few elite programmers, and there is a good likely hood that I will never be. Sure, some projects, perhaps the majority, benefit from average programmers, and collaborateive development works in those cases. However, the most cutting edge, and bug-less, projects are only ever going to be the realm of the best of the best, and it doesn't matter how many people want to collaborate. Plus bad programmers, who fool you into thinking they are good because they want to feel needed, hurt any project they join, if only because they commit to work they will never finish. So yes, collaborative development such as sourceforge can help some projects, but it is definitely not the be all and end all for programming.

Re:Its not all good....but it has potential (2, Interesting)

eUdudx (880557) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962314)

Back in the distant past, my firm released its massive source freely thinking its hardware was the secret sauce.

I rec'd quite a few bug reports with included suggestions for appropriate fixes which were tested and happily integrated into the upcoming revision.

Not everyone wants to "help" like this but there were some truly great folks "among the customers" who couldn't wait for the update cycle to get their work done. NOT having access to the source (which eventually came to pass) was a sad day for my friends and perhaps the beginning of the end for a great enterprise.

Re:Its not all good....but it has potential (1)

Umbral Blot (737704) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962323)

Yes, I agree that feature and bug feedback from the user community is important, but I don't think you need to have a collaborative development community to do this. After all you were not collaborating with them in the same way you would as if you were working with them. They did not assign you tasks, nor were your fixes accepted without review/revision. So yes, open source has benifits such as these and more, but open source doesn't necessarily mean collaborative development.

Re:Its not all good (2, Insightful)

ACORN_USER (902686) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962603)

A well managed project can suceed with both substandard and Elite developers. One likes to think that good OSS should come from skilled software engineers - the Children of computer science. We are building in the realm of a formal decipline and it's a shame that more projects are not built on the basis of their designers academic training. Sure it will take 10 times as a long as it should and be 50% less fun, but a well spec'd, designed, delgated, tested and implemented project is more likely to offer stability and do away with a lot of the issues which you have raised. Rather than knocking yourself as a coder, you should be celbrating yourself as an engineer and become an advocate for correcting the process flaws which you have pointed out.

The Funniest Collaborative Project of All Time (1)

klenwell (960296) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962278)

Good. Maybe someday can resurrect this project [wikipedia.org] on sourceforge and finally put an end to this absurd war in Iraq.

Tom

HyperCard's potential clear from the start (2, Interesting)

toby (759) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962544)

According to the FA, HyperCard was released in 1987 -- eight years or so before the WWW amounted to anything much. (Ward's original stacks [c2.com] can be downloaded from his site; also see his Pattern Repository's HyperCard topic [c2.com] .)

I recall the palpable buzz at the an Apple developer conference (Canberra? The year I read Jonno's copy of Vernor Vinge's The Peace War(?) during the long drive from Melbourne) where illicit copies of Silver Surfer -- pre-release HyperCard -- were being smuggled on to developers' systems and whispered about. Believe me, almost everyone who saw it -- five years before Berners-Lee kicked off the WWW on his NeXT -- recognised how exciting a paradigm it defined. Including Apple! On the Mac, for high level application developers, this was the era of Helix (exciting) and OMNIS (not very). (Confession: I think I was too young to entirely get what the fuss was all about.)

In those eight years before the web took firm hold, HyperCard was constantly promoted and bundled in very visible form (including printed manuals) with every Macintosh sold. It had a plugin architecture, and a massive roster of third party developers and solutions. My brother built an accounting system for a family business with it.

As a more bare-metal C/Pascal Mac developer during this period, I sometimes grew exasperated at the ubiquity of this seemingly pedestrian product I wasn't much interested in using!

Silver Surfer (1)

Jaxoreth (208176) | more than 8 years ago | (#14962739)

Sorry, Silver Surfer was the code name for the 4th Dimension [wikipedia.org] database package. Read Guy Kawasaki's The Macintosh Way [amazon.com] for more detail.

HyperCard was originally called WildCard, hence the creator code 'WILD'.

Re:Silver Surfer - thanks - memory fade (1)

toby (759) | more than 8 years ago | (#14964069)

Ah thanks, it's so long ago my memory was getting the two mixed up. And posting at 4am doesn't help... IIRC Both products attracted quite a bit of buzz. But for different reasons :-)

That's unpossible! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14962878)

Ward Cunningham, creator of the wiki, has predicted an encouraging future for open source and collaborative development.

In other news, the pope yesterday predicted that the catholic church will remain the most reliable source of religious truths, and the one true path to salvation.

Dilbert (1)

slavemowgli (585321) | more than 8 years ago | (#14963140)

Ward Cunningham, creator of the wiki, has predicted an encouraging future for open source and collaborative development.

Dilbert summed it up quite perfectly:

DOGBERT: Nostradogbert predicts there will be turmoil in the Middle East.
RATBERT: Wow! That's quite a prediction! You're really going out on a limb!
DOGBERT: Is that sarcasm? I can't tell with you.
RATBERT: Will there be any sand involved?

(1991-12-11)

Ward to speak on wikis (1)

driehle (793340) | more than 8 years ago | (#14963162)

Ward will speak on wiki design principles at WikiSym 2006 [wikisym.org] in August this year in Europe. His talk title is "Design Principles of Wiki: How can so little do so much?" Other speakers include Doug Engelbart (the Doug Engelbart), Angela Beesley, and Mark Bernstein.

wiki (1)

chrisranjana.com (630682) | more than 8 years ago | (#14963277)

Yes wiki is the next big thing. Wiki since it is moderated nowadays provides unbiased content to knowledge seekers.

Users... or useless? (2, Insightful)

autophile (640621) | more than 8 years ago | (#14963743)

IMHO, the two biggest obstacles to users contributing to projects are lack of documentation, and the inherent complexity of programming.

I don't know how many times I've clicked on the "documentation" link in a project only to be greeted with "Coming Soon!". Never mind design documents.

I think we're going to need a much higher level of abstraction for code before we reach a tipping point where projects can survive and grow without their lead creator.

--Rob

Users... or useless?-MDA. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14963929)

"IMHO, the two biggest obstacles to users contributing to projects are lack of documentation, and the inherent complexity of programming."

A programmer would most likely feel that accounting is inherently complex, while a CPA wouldn't. In other words complexity is relative. The problem is that the field of programming isn't geared towards making accountants or other professionals (domain experts) into programmers. But making programmers into bigger programmers. Kind of like being a translator. A translator could have tools that make them more efficient, but those tools wouldn't make them experts in the information that's being transmitted.

"I think we're going to need a much higher level of abstraction for code before we reach a tipping point where projects can survive and grow without their lead creator."

That's were the MDA paradigm comes in handy. The documentation IS the code, and it's in a form that's palatable to people who may be experts in their particular domain, but aren't programmers. The next job skill will be being a good modeller (not as easy as people think).

Microsoft moving towards community development (1)

nickthecook (960608) | more than 8 years ago | (#14964310)

FTFA:
And though Microsoft is slow to adopt the community model of development, they are headed for it, Cunningham said.

I was surprised at this, given how much MS has attacked the open-source movement in the past. After all, OSS is communism [hopto.org] , right?

But then I realized that "the community model of development" doesn't necessarily mean open-source, it just implies a certain amount of feedback from the "community", whatever that is, to the project's decision-makers.

Everyone involved in a project within MS already has access to at least part of the source code, so it may just be a different way of managing a project in which the developers guide the process more than in the past, or it could be that they will foster development by the public, but they retain all rights to the source code, and you have to sign a NDA before you get to see it.

That way they get to maintain their position on OSS, and take reap some of the benefits of an open development process

Alas Simplicity (3, Interesting)

fm6 (162816) | more than 8 years ago | (#14964333)

Ask most wiki users what a wiki is, and they'll say something like, "It's a platform for collaborative writing." That's mainly what it's used for of course, but that's not what it is. Cunningham's original definition is much better: "The simplest database possible." And that's the concept's main virtue, simplicty. I do wish people would bear that in mind when they decide to use a wiki for something — especially when it's something that'd be better done another way.

collaborative working (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14967744)

I have a project on sourceforge, if you have skills about the subject and want to join the work team, be my guest.. :)

http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/heavenos/ [sourceforge.net]

http://www.codingheaven.net/ [codingheaven.net]

nothing new here.. (2, Insightful)

Rimu (757028) | more than 8 years ago | (#14977479)

People have been saying that "any day now, the general public will be making software" for decades. So far, we're not much closer to that goal than 20 years ago. Hell, even VB 6 is way beyond what the average person can deal with. VB.Net became even less noob-friendly, as they added more features... So there's not a lot of hope there.
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