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Microsoft Claims 3.3 million NetWare Migration Win

CowboyNeal posted more than 8 years ago | from the working-the-numbers dept.

191

Anonymous Coward writes "For the second year in a row, Microsoft has waited for Novell's annual BrainShare show to start before claiming a huge customer migration win off NetWare and onto Windows. According to this article Microsoft says that there were more than 1.8 million successful commercial sector migrations in 2005 alone, and a total of 3.3 million customers migrated over the past two years. It has also launched a new program to lure customers in the education and state and local government sectors off NetWare and onto Windows." Novell's comments are enlightening about where they see themselves within the market.

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191 comments

First Post (-1, Offtopic)

Metabolife (961249) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966304)

And I didn't even read TFA!

I couldnt resist.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14966311)

Netware is missing a few branches off it's tree!

-Sj53

Re:I couldnt resist.. (1)

Aqua_boy17 (962670) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966783)

No, that's Banyan Vines

Welcome to 2006! (5, Interesting)

XorNand (517466) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966314)


And in other news today: Apple smuggly announced that the iPod is greatly outselling 8-track tape players.

I'm Novell certified and have (had) been admining Netware boxes for over a decade. But I haven't touched one in more than three years. NDS is worlds better than Active Directory, especially in a true enterprise-sized installation. However, the supposed debate is moot in 2006. Netware got clobbered like Netscape Navigator did. Too many software vendors have stopped writing versions of their products for Netware, and too many hardware vendors don't write drivers. I commend Novell for trying to turn their ship around and not resigning themselves to annilation. Their committment to SuSE is a very wise move, IMHO. So enough with the marketdroid strutting already. This hasn't been news since the last century.

you are missing the point.... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14966346)

these customers are choosing to upgrade to Windows, rather then follow Netware's recomended upgrade path (linux)

is that surprising? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14966427)

Novell didn't even have the recommended upgrade path in place until netware's fate was already sealed. Hell, I'm not sure we could honestly say the linux upgrade path for netware is in place *yet*. IMHO they still have a ways to go before Novell can say their linux products "replace" their old netware products.

SUSE isn't Novell's way of saving their product line. The product line already got clobbered, and everyone knows it-- SUSE is the way of saving the company, and maybe claiming some of their product line back.

Re:you are missing the point.... (4, Insightful)

frodo from middle ea (602941) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966793)

what I find strange, is any time linux/open source favoring figures are mentioned, they are stated as facts...firefox usage up by 2%, IE usage drops below 85%..

And any time microsoft favoring figures are mentioned, they are mentioned as claims...Double Standards anyone ?

I myself am a linux fanboy, and have no objection to the linux slant on /. , but that doesn't mean we should toy with statistics or facts to make our point.

To the editors, whenever siting unverifiable statistical data, be explicit about the source and the reliability of the source and by reliable I don't mean linux favoring is reliable and Microsoft favoring is unreliable.

Re:you are missing the point.... (1)

subgrappler (864963) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966961)

is MS more trusted in making claims/facts than the open source world? if so, then yes, its probably a double standard. if not, then perhaps there is a reason why this is so.

Re:you are missing the point.... (1)

frodo from middle ea (602941) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967293)

I don't think it is a question of trust. there are 2 things to consider here.

First you must consider the psychology behind interpreting favorable/unfavorable statistics/numbers. When ever we see statistics that are in accordance of our point of view, we blindly accept them to be true without considering any other parameters. We don't try to judge whether the competing entity received fair treatment the statistical analysis or not. or how big was the sample base used to collect those statistics or how correct is the extrapolation of the results.

On the other hand, the moment we see statistics that don't favor our views/beliefs we start to question the authenticity of the statistics, even at times the integrity of the people collecting these statistics. In short we try to find ways to discredit the numbers, just because they don't conform to our view point, but we have no problems accepting the same statistics as facts if the out come favors our viewpoint.

My point is that there is a definite bias among /. crowd when interpreting statistics . No matter which side of the issue you are on, you should take all statistical analysis with a grain of salt.

As to the second issue of how trustworthy is microsoft well not very, but I wouldn't blindly trust IBM or RedHat either.

There are two perfect ways to get modded up (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14967192)

There are two reliable ways to get modded up on slashdot:

  1. Say "I'm probably going to get moderated down for saying this, but"
  2. Criticize slashdot

Slashdotters love to see people trashing Slashdot, or accusing it of bias. Attacking slashdot is more consistently crowd-pleasing than attacking SCO, or Microsoft, or even Bush. It's so effective you don't even have to be right, or have any idea what you're saying, to be moderated up, so long as you make Slashdot look bad. Case in point:
any time linux/open source favoring figures are mentioned, they are stated as facts...firefox usage up by 2%, IE usage drops below 85%.. And any time microsoft favoring figures are mentioned, they are mentioned as claims
Um... is it, though? I mean, let's look. If you do a google search for site:slashdot.org firefox share [google.com] , you get five slashdot articles about firefox market share on the front page. Out of these

  1. Three state a positive assertion about Firefox market share-- phrased as "ZDNet reports" or "Infoworld reports", with an "according to" addendum giving the original source of the report
  2. One contains an assertion as if it were plain fact-- but it is a completely dry fact, simply stating a certain number of firefox downloads had been reached.
  3. One contains a negative assertion about Firefox Market share, simply stated as a fact-- "Firefox Market share slipped this month".

So, looking here, I have one data point, and you have none. It looks to me for the moment like your assertion that slashdot represents pro-open source claims as facts and anti-open source facts as claims is simply false. You have given me no reason to believe otherwise. We have here three articles where positive Firefox market share news is stated as "[news source] says", one article where negative Firefox market share news is stated as plain fact with no qualifiers, and one article where positive Microsoft market share news is stated as "Microsoft says", with the word "claims" in the title. It looks to me like in the aggregate Firefox is getting worse treatment than Microsoft does here.

You seem to think there is some kind of negative implication in the choice of words "Microsoft claims"-- but this is simply an accurate statement of the article's content, and in no way unreasonable. While the three firefox articles cited above stem from some third party, here the source is Microsoft themselves. If we had "Firefox says" versus "Firefox claims" in the articles above, that would be one thing, but in all above cases the source is a journalistic entity, not Firefox themselves. Surely it is reasonable to depict statements by an apparent neutral third party differently from assertions made directly by a vendor with a vested interest in depicting their products positively?

Moreover, the word "claims" that you find so offensive doesn't even stem from Slashdot-- it's from the article. You know, that thing no one reads?
"Microsoft is claiming"
Slashdot wouldn't know what journalistic integrity was if it bit Slashdot in the face. But if eweek is referring to this news with the words "Microsoft is claiming", how can one blame Slashdot for doing the same? I think you are just overgeneralizing.

Here Is Why (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14966856)

Read the first comment [newsforge.com] on this Newsforge Brainshare report.

When your CNE's are that frustrated, it's no wonder.

Re:Welcome to 2006! (4, Insightful)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966464)

This is just plain stupid?

Why leave if its better and cheaper to administrate?

People wonder why Windows remains king over Linux and I think its corporate America's view that one vendor should decide everything for them as a way to cut down on costs. Meanwhile they are being robbed and price gouged.

Have you seen the price of MS Office? What is Apple's office suite? $79?

They get what they deserve. I just hope the rest of the world such as Europe and South America dont drink the MS coolaid as much.

Re:Welcome to 2006! (4, Insightful)

sammy baby (14909) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966712)

Have you seen the price of MS Office? What is Apple's office suite? $79?

Okay, wait a minute.

Office is certainly overpriced for non corporate users. But iWork [apple.com] (Apple's "office suite") swings too far in the other direction. In its standard/academic editions, MS Office ships with Excel, Outlook, PowerPoint, and Word.

iWork ships with Pages (a page layout / word processing app) and Keynote (their equivalent to PowerPoint).

It's my opinion that you can't describe something as an office suite without a spreadsheet. But that's just me.

Re:Welcome to 2006! (1)

chipperdog (169552) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967215)

What happened to the AppleWorks 2.0 Spreadsheet?
I had many complicated ledgers on that in 1984 on an Apple //c...It worked like a charm...I can't believe they couldn't have ported that to OS X

Re:Welcome to 2006! (1)

JulesLt (909417) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967283)

Still there on PPC, but dead going forward. NeoOfficeJ or OpenOffice both available though.

Re:Welcome to 2006! (1)

CheeseTroll (696413) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967284)

iWork is hardly Apple's office suite. Check out AppleWorks [apple.com] , which does word processing, page layout, painting, spreadsheet, database, and presentations. Also $79.

Re:Welcome to 2006! (2, Insightful)

Craig Maloney (1104) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966742)

Apparently new corporate methodology is to not only reinvent the wheel, but to rip out one's fingernails before attempting the process. It doesn't make sense why corporations would take what works and toss it out for something that doesn't work well, but apparently 3 million folks are learning that lesson first-hand.

Re:Welcome to 2006! (1)

dedazo (737510) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966849)

corporate America's [...] Have you seen the price of MS Office?

I have. And? Do you think Fortune 100 Corp. pays Staples/Best Buy retail for 30,000 MSO licenses? We are talking about "corporate america", right? I'm pretty sure it's probably a geat deal even at the $79 you quote for Apple's product, considering iWork (or whatever it's called) lacks an actual usable business-level spreadhseet.

Re:Welcome to 2006! (1)

hey! (33014) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966920)

People wonder why Windows remains king over Linux and I think its corporate America's view that one vendor should decide everything for them as a way to cut down on costs.

I don't think it's that so much as what constitutes a "good enough" decision. A high certainty of "good enough" in many instances beats a moderate probability of "optimal", especially if eliminating the uncertainty takes more time than you have. And the bulk of people in your industry sticking with Windows and consolidating the old Novell machines to XP counts as good enough. The thing that makes FUD work is the same thing that makes fishes swim in schools.

And, the devil-you-know is not necessarily a "bad" decision from a business sense. Knowing when to cut off analyzing a decision and to go with good enough is a black art, not a science.

It may have been that had Novell stuck to its original technology, the "good enough" factor would have slowed the loss of their customers. The Linux approach is more entrepreneurial; over the long term they may be better off, but it's a gamble.

Office isn't *that* expensive... (2, Interesting)

everphilski (877346) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967069)

Office XP Standard (Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook) is $73 on Pricewatch, 2003 is $77.

Re:Office isn't *that* expensive... (1)

kin_korn_karn (466864) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967246)

Aren't those some OEM versions that aren't supposed to be sold without hardware?
big corps run screaming from those sorts of things.

Re:Welcome to 2006! (0, Redundant)

The Spoonman (634311) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967111)

Why leave if its better and cheaper to administrate?

Because it's not. Windows is install and forget. Netware required so much attention.

People wonder why Windows remains king over Linux and I think its corporate America's view that one vendor should decide everything for them as a way to cut down on costs. Meanwhile they are being robbed and price gouged.

No, it's probably got more to do with the fact that corporate america wants to actually move forward with technology, rather than continue to kludge the same 1979 OS over and over again in the hopes that someday, SOMEDAY, it might be able to match Windows-based offerings. Oh, and BTW, very few businesses are "married" to one vendor. I've been to manys a requirements meeting where it's discussed which direction to travel. Windows just generally provides the greatest amount of flexibility, performance, security and stability with the least amount of administrative setup. It's usually an easy sell when someone on our Unix team tells a project manager that they can have a machine ready for them in three weeks from when it comes in the door, and the Windows engineers tell them they can do it in three days.

Have you seen the price of MS Office? What is Apple's office suite? $79?

And? have you seen the difference in capabilities? You can buy a used Yugo for about $200, but if you really want to get places is it really going to be your first choice? You can't buy everything on price and expect to save money.

They get what they deserve. I just hope the rest of the world such as Europe and South America dont drink the MS coolaid as much.

When they finally get computers in those areas, I'm sure Linux usage will just skyrocket!

(For those who don't get it, I was making fun of him, not Europe or SA. I'm fully aware they're technologically advanced.)

Re:Welcome to 2006! (1)

ivan256 (17499) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967205)

People wonder why Windows remains king over Linux and I think its corporate America's view that one vendor should decide everything for them as a way to cut down on costs. Meanwhile they are being robbed and price gouged.

I think you're wrong. It's all about the apps. Companies migrate to windows because the apps they need that used to run on *NIX and Netware only run on Windows now. Microsoft won the install base by winning over the application developers, and customers pick Microsoft because they have little or no choice. It's certainly unlikely that they care if it's windows on their desktop or server. They care only about the bottom line of the invoice, but these days there is only one number to pick.

I'm not talking retail applications here, I'm talking about big, industry specific applications.

Re:Welcome to 2006! (1)

homerules (688184) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967258)

I work in a small business (under 50 users, 2 locations) We needed new servers, Netware was a lot more expensive. We actually have less problems now with Windows 2003 than with Netware. We no longer go through hell trying to get some users to get their Windows and Novell passwords to match there is. I am by no means a fan of MS but in the small environment I work in Windows servers worked out better than their Netware counterparts.

Re:Welcome to 2006! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14966538)

And in other news today: 8-track users smugly announced that the iPod isn't gapless either.

Inflated (0, Troll)

michaelhood (667393) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966319)

FTA: Asked where Microsoft had gotten those specific numbers, Gavin said they represented the number of "successful migrations completed in partnership with Quest Software in 2005," but he was unable to immediately provide eWEEK with information on whether these numbers represented individual customers or total users or what versions of NetWare they were running. Half of these users were probably running DOS-based NetWare, and were due for ANY kind of an upgrade; they took what was cheapest. This isn't news.

Re:Inflated (1)

Zerbs (898056) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966719)

I'm suprised that as of 2 years ago, that 3.3 million people were still using Netware. It's funny to reflect on that, because in the early to mid 90's my thinking was: 'Sure, Windows is OK for the desktop, but who would want to run that on their servers?'

Re:Inflated (4, Informative)

CaymanIslandCarpedie (868408) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967066)

Your strange little editorial on what the article says:

Asked where Microsoft had gotten those specific numbers, Gavin said they represented the number of "successful migrations completed in partnership with Quest Software in 2005," but he was unable to immediately provide eWEEK with information on whether these numbers represented individual customers or total users or what versions of NetWare they were running.

What the article actually says in case anyone is interested.

Asked where Microsoft had gotten those specific numbers, Gavin said they represented the number of "successful migrations completed in partnership with Quest Software in 2005." The figures also reflect the number of users rather than individual commercial migrations, and reflect migrations off Netware versions 4, 5 and 6 with Novell directory services 4, 5 and 8.

Sheesh! Directly after you stope your quote they specifically say exactly what you say they don't say. And it gets modded up?!?!?!?

The MS thugs are at it again (2, Informative)

linguizic (806996) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966320)

This really illustrates how greedy Microsoft is. NetWare specializes in one little segment of the market. It's not enough that MS's crappy OS is on most of the computers around the world, they have to infect the market segment that Novell is currently parasitising.

It not only shows how greedy they are, but also how they are just plain bullies. Timing these claims the way they did is just dirty. I know this is just business, but the claim is hard to justify:

Asked where Microsoft had gotten those specific numbers, Gavin said they represented the number of "successful migrations completed in partnership with Quest Software in 2005," but he was unable to immediately provide eWEEK with information on whether these numbers represented individual customers or total users or what versions of NetWare they were running.

Re:The MS thugs are at it again (4, Interesting)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966383)

This really illustrates the greed inherent in the capitalistic model. It has nothing in particular to do with Microsoft. If Novell were cleaning Microsoft's clock, they'd probably do the same thing. Microsoft's only sin [in this case] is that they have ammo while Novell's clip is empty.

Abusive, or just stupid moderation? (2)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966486)

*ahem* How is it flamebait to explain to someone that capitalism leads to a certain set of common business practices? At least I wasn't marked troll, for once. If anything, the comment I replied to should have been modded flamebait, since it made (or implied) the statement that Microsoft is evil and Novell is holy.

Re:Abusive, or just stupid moderation? (1)

Havokmon (89874) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966545)

There is such a thing as corporate responsiblity. MS consistantly lies - I liked MS until Win95 came out. At that time, I was a tech, and learned the MS reps (After not answering any questions on Win95 for months) avoided the techs, and told the sales people to sell Win95 no matter what the customer really needed. This sleaze, combined with the 'no more DOS' crap that any moron should have been able to see through, was just the tip of the iceberg for all of us.

So when you defend the lies as 'everybody does it', it's going to be rated flamebait.

Re:Abusive, or just stupid moderation? (1)

heinousjay (683506) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967325)

So when you defend the lies as 'everybody does it', it's going to be rated flamebait.

That is not at all implied in the GP's original post. The Slashdot kneejerk tendency to assume anything not rabidly anti-corporate is evil really jumps out here and demonstrates severe bias.

I am not terribly surprised. I've been modded down for all manner of truth. I expect to catch some in this case, if anybody reads this thread deep enough.

Hell, what's even funny in this case is that the GP said that this demonstrates the greed inherent in capitalism. You'd think that would float just fine with the crowd here. Apparently y'all are fickle.

Re:The MS thugs are at it again (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966484)

Its not about marketshare.

Its about control and setting standards. Whoever sets standards decides who purchases software. MS wants to chose for the bussiness and not the other way around. Look at the damage the internet did by introducing open standards? It brought unix and Linux when it was beggining to leave the enterprise.

  This is "just in case Novel comes up with something in the future".

Anything that uses NDS is out of the question since no ones uses it anymore and it makes sure any Novel future product will not hurt MS as much.

Re:The MS thugs are at it again (1)

FishandChips (695645) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966866)

Of course it is about market share. You cannot set standards and control things without it. There is also the matter of genuine innovation, as distinct from marketing BS claiming innovation. In a Wintel monopoly there will be little innovation because the main thrust is to preserve the monopoly. Fat stockholders will think this wonderful until someone else - the Chinese maybe - suddenly turns the tables and then we'll all be sorry. Imagine living somewhere where the only place you could ever eat out was Macdonalds. That's what the Wintel monopoly means to software.

Re:The MS thugs are at it again (1)

Znork (31774) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966986)

"You cannot set standards and control things without it."

Marketshare gains you little in the way of control unless you have the legal means to exclude competition. That's where intellectual monopoly legislation comes in and joins with marketshare to destroy any semblance of a free market.

"Fat stockholders will think this wonderful until someone else - the Chinese maybe - suddenly turns the tables and then we'll all be sorry."

No shit. Intellectual 'property' is our version of the soviet state factories, killing innovation and competition, leaving us hopelessly inefficient in the heavily monopolized sectors.

Re:The MS thugs are at it again (1)

ip_freely_2000 (577249) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966922)

Greed? No. It's called competition.

Novell had no problems doing this to Microsoft back in the early 90's when Netware was king and Microsoft was desperately trying to network their Windows 3.1 boxes. Remember the thing that was called WfW? What a mess.

Now that Novell has had the snot kicked out of it, Microsoft will continue to have no hesitation to do Novell what it has already done to Banyan Vines.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

You know you're old when... (4, Funny)

mcgroarty (633843) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966338)

The first one of you Windows 2000 babies to say "What's Netware?" gets smacked with my walker.

Re:You know you're old when... (1)

GundamFan (848341) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966377)

Bah... talk to me after you migrate 145 users from Warp to windows 2000/XP... I did that last year...

Re:You know you're old when... (2, Funny)

b1t r0t (216468) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966390)

The first one of you Windows 2000 babies to say "What's Netware?" gets smacked with my walker.

And keep off our lawns!

Re:You know you're old when... (1)

mcgroarty (633843) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966408)

And keep off our lawns!
Don't push me [google.com] .

Re:You know you're old when... (1)

digitaldc (879047) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966615)

And keep off our lawns!

Especially if you live in Batavia, Ohio! [ap.org]

Re:You know you're old when... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14966410)

i would have said that, had it not been for the cs271 course i am taking this semester, we are still working with netware 4.11 on win98.
if we say roughly the year 2000 was the hight of windows 98 i would have been 13 when it was at its peak.
i had to do some digging just to remember how to do the most basic of things in windows 98.

i do have to say, i admire the NDS system overall and the newer version look much nicer. i just cant stand windows 98

Re:You know you're old when... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14966488)

lake superior's not a state.

Re:You know you're old when... (1)

aqfire (885545) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966559)

Nobody uses Windows 2000 anymore, Grandpa... gosh!

Re:You know you're old when... (4, Funny)

kaszeta (322161) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966648)

"What's Netware?"

It's what we upgraded to from Banyan VINES.

Re:You know you're old when... (4, Funny)

slaker (53818) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966797)

Once, on a cold and lonely contract, I was forced to migrate some poor enterprise from Windows 2000 + NDS to VINES. I think I'm going to hell for that.

Re:You know you're old when... (1)

ari_j (90255) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967031)

Times like these, I wish I could use a moderator point for PLUS one, Flamebait.

Re:You know you're old when... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14966729)

You know that you're over the hill

when your mind makes a promise that your body can't fill

-Little Feat, Old Folk's Boogie

Re:You know you're old when... (1)

JoeLinux (20366) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967292)

I got one...kinda similar. I used to be a network engineer for a company that rhymes with Brue Closs of Califermia.

At one point, network-wide, we had: IPX/SPX, TCP/IP.

Not bad, right?

Well, they brought in GTE (Now Verizon) services. Their ticket tracking system consisted of a MODEM-ONLY (as in "dial-tone") system (Even within the building) that ran over Banyan Vines (So: Banyan Vines over PPP).

Talk about the network map from hell....

I can tell you where (3, Insightful)

Alcimedes (398213) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966341)

Novell sees themselves as dead. Because that's where they are. They won the war on the technical front and got handed their asses on the marketing front. At the end of the day the marketing front is (usually) more powerful. That means game over for Novell.

Re:I can tell you where (4, Insightful)

misleb (129952) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966725)

With the exception of NDS vs. AD, Novell did not win on a technical front. I've been admin'ing Netware servers on and off for 10 years and I must say that the OS itself is rather arcane. The interface (console) is awkward and the OS is built on obsolete computer science. It uses cooperative multi-tasking and almost all NLMs run at the kernel level. So that a bug in most NLMs can and will abend (BSOD for you Windows guys) the server. Personally, I'm sick of it. I currently maintain 2 Netware 6 servers and simply unloading a module can either hang the console (requiring a reboot to fully recover) or cause some kind of critical system fault (sometimes and abend).

That said, we're not about to migrate the servers to Windows. So we're kinda stuck until we can find a satisfactory Groupwise replacement. And I still like NDS. I am also a Linux admin, and so far I haven't found any good open or closed source groupware packages for Linux. Almost all of them that I have found maintain some proprietary user database. That just won't do. We need centralized directory authentication.

-matthew

Re:I can tell you where (1)

slaker (53818) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966845)

Samsung Contact [samsungcontact.com] is a really sweet messaging server. And it gets next to no marketing, as far as I can tell, which is too bad, 'cause it does all the Exchange-only crap that Outlook supports.

Re:I can tell you where (1)

misleb (129952) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966994)

How does it authenticate users? Does it actually require RedHat? I really don't want to run Redhat. I'm a Debian guy. How about OS X support?

-matthew

Re:I can tell you where (1)

PygmySurfer (442860) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967061)

Why would you suggest they upgrade to an abandoned product [samsungcontact.com] ? That'd be worse than sticking with Groupwise.

Re:I can tell you where (1)

ILikeRed (141848) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966905)

I am just about ready to start seriously researching Groupwise on Linux - have you tried it? What keeps you away?

Re:I can tell you where (1)

misleb (129952) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967079)

I did an eval of GW 7 and initially installed it on Linux just for the heck of it to check out the new features before upgrading the main server from GW 6.5. I can't really speak to its quality (on Linux) other than what I've read on various forums. I got the impression that it is somewhat flakey. For the most part, I'm just sticking with what I know, and that's Groupwise + Netware. For as annoying as Netware can be, it is stable enough. Also, I'm not too excited about running SuSE Linux. I'm a Debian guy.

But if you like SuSE and are not totally comfortable with Netware, I'd give Groupwise on LInux a go. The data files are all compatable if you ever decide to move to Netware.

-matthew

Insightful?? (1)

Eric Damron (553630) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966816)

Microsoft puts out some FUD so that means game over for Novell?? This is NOT insightful this is trolling.

Re:Insightful?? (2, Interesting)

Alcimedes (398213) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967262)

The reason I say this is I've watched Novell lose out at our University for NO reason other than it's not MS. Novell can do more than the AD system they're trying to roll out, but they're going with AD anyway because it's the MS system.

When we asked the decision makers why, it was because we're already paying for the MS software, so we might as well use it.

It's sad. I'm not happy to see Novell going away, it offer tools that MS's AD doesn't, but it's gone, and gone because of marketing.

Someone still uses Netware? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14966347)

I remember back in the day when Netware ruled the roost. IBM PC LAN was basically a joke and no corp in their right mind actually used it for anything real. Then Lan Manager came out and the writing was on the wall, the "file server as a black box" days were coming to an end. To Novell's credit they did try to roll with the punches, but in the end it was too little to late. RIP Netware.

What pisses me off is... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14966351)

You post a link that forces you to download Flash to view a bunch of fuckin adverts.

Re:What pisses me off is... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14966562)

Check out privoxy.org (kick ass proxy server and filter) and adblock.mozdev.org.

Microsoft bashes Netware during brainshare (5, Funny)

GundamFan (848341) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966353)

In other news water is wet, fire is hot and rocks are hard. Our sources predict that soon Microoft will trash linux, stay tuned....

People are leaving Netware? (1)

ArcherB (796902) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966359)

That's like Redhat claiming that 12 million DOS users have switched to Linux.

Brainsharing (1, Insightful)

digitaldc (879047) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966460)

This is not the first time that Microsoft has released figures for migration off Novell's NetWare and onto Windows during BrainShare, with the apparent goal of diverting attention away from Novell's conference news.

Brainshare, has that become something akin to the Collective? [startrek-voyager.info]

The Collective
Microsoft is a vast collective of humanoids that have been assimilated by the Billgatus of Borg. These humanoids, called Windrones, have various ID badges outside their bodies. These ID badges connect all the Windrones to each other in a massive collective called Redmond, which supresses each Windrone's individuality. Windrones have the ability to adapt to enemy software which makes them a powerful enemy. Their main goal is to find profits by assimilating more workers and technology, but they only assimilate what they think is relevant market or technological traits. The Windrones are un-emotional but efficient and can only grow in numbers by assimilation.
The traditional Windrone hail which is delivered before the assimilation is as follows:
"We are Microsoft. You will be assimilated. Your technical and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile."

Re:Brainsharing (1)

Soporific (595477) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966524)

Actual first posts get marked as redundant and this doesn't?

~S

Marketing?? more like MS Brainwashing... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14966720)

Oh please,

regardless of microsofties claims to the contrary, Novell Netware is alive and doing fine, I have no problems selling a Netware server installation when I can simply take the prospective customer on a tour of one of my customers that is using a Novell server.
They hear things like 700+ day uptimes (and running) without reboots or dataloss, weekly patches or problems of any kind. They talk to sysadmins that actually get 99.9999% uptimes without multiple servers and a single admin able to handle the server AND end user needs w Zenworks & the other products from Novell and the MS marketing becomes just that, marketing.

There's a reason that 90+% of the Fortune 500 still uses Novell, perhaps it's because companies with real IT departments make choices based on technology instead of marketing.

Also, If I remember correctly part of MSs claim for having so may servers is based on the fact that even USER pc's are being counted as servers because the default install gives out access to the "administrative shares" making ALL MS machines servers.

As far as software support, you would have to explicitly code against working with the Novell client before you could say it was "unsupported" due to the lengths that Novell has to go to be completely compatible with MS windows.

The required drivers for any server hardware are better made by Novell than the hardware vendor anyway. Giving ring 0 access to any old random hardware vendor's code is a good part of MS's problem, even now.

Bill Gates... (1, Troll)

Attis_The_Bunneh (960066) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966527)

GET A REAL JOB! ^__^ Sorry, but seriously, I find this sort of mental masturbation by MS and company to be silly. If they can't find a good point to promote their products then maybe I can steer clear of theirs. :) -- Bridget

Welcome to... (2, Interesting)

amcdiarmid (856796) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966563)

How many migrations from:
Windows 95?
Windows 98?
Windows NT 3.5?
Windows NT 3.51?
Windows NT 4.0?
Windows 2000?
Citrix Winframe?
Citrix Metaframe?
Citrix Metaframe XP? (really, what kind of bs name extension is this?)
Citrix NetScaler?

Inquiring minds want to know

If a prize fight, they would have stopped it. (2, Insightful)

LibertineR (591918) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966607)

Not trolling, but come on?

"Oops, there goes another customer."

Reply: "Yeah, but we are better....."

"And another...."

Reply: "Yeah, but they suck"

"There goes another......."

Is it trolling to suggest Novell needs a new argument. If "we're still better" aint stopping migration, might a change of message be in order?

OK, but : (3, Insightful)

Mr. Funky (957139) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966609)

If you run ancient clipper-applications w/o source -and thus no way to migrate them in 1 or 2 mouseclicks- which use DBX-databases-ervers as the company I work for use, you'd better stick to Netware, connecting to databases using IPX/SPX is soooo much faster than windows.

Now we have moved to an AD (yuck) things slowed down dramatically, and there is no way to improve it, because MS fsked up the protocol...

Rumours go ppl@redmond did that on purpose when the Netware/Windows war _really_ was going on (ages ago) to show their clients how fsked up that protocol was and they'd better use MS TCP/IP and stuff.
But remember, it's just a rumour ;)

Re:OK, but : (1)

Mr. Funky (957139) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966658)

In my anger I fscked up 'fsked' twice, gotta update my dict.conf I guess...

Re:OK, but : (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14967207)

Which protocol did Microsoft mess up with regards to Active Directory? TCP/IP? LDAP? I'd give you Kerberos, but what are you talking about? If IPX is faster connecting to your proprietary database, that's great, but it's not Microsoft's fault.

Disclaimer: I used to run Netware servers and I miss them.

I ONLY work here... (2, Informative)

eaddict (148006) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966640)

Our company is on its way of moving out all our Netware servers and moving to a completely MS based environment. Sad to see us go that way. I have said my piece over and over but to no avail. Now all I can still fight for is Oracle on Unix vs MS SQL. We ever go that way I am going to have to update my resume. Our computer room is a nightmare with a bazallion Dell servers all running MS something or other...

Re:I ONLY work here... (1)

misleb (129952) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966801)

Mind if I ask: Why Oracle? In my experience, most people don't use 90% of the features that Oracle provides and could probably get by just fine with PosgreSQL or, *gasp* MySQL 5.

-matthew

Re:I ONLY work here... (1)

ScriptedReplay (908196) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967050)

Just a guess, but if your PHBs are dead set on MS SQL/Win, then a F/OSS proposition will typically be a no/no. In such a case, all you can do is point to a different commercial one (and it'd better be a big enough one) since that's the language they'll understand.

Of course, in large corps this will have a lot to do with ass covering, too - MS is the 'safe bet' in such a case. Speaking of which, I wonder if the GP might have any success trying to push for DB2 and the old 'nobody got fired for buying IBM' line ;-)

Re:I ONLY work here... (1)

misleb (129952) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967224)

Just a guess, but if your PHBs are dead set on MS SQL/Win, then a F/OSS proposition will typically be a no/no. In such a case, all you can do is point to a different commercial one (and it'd better be a big enough one) since that's the language they'll understand.

Honestly, given a choice between Oracle and MS-SQL, I'd almost have to go with MSSQL. Oracle is a bloated beast. Of course, I've never been much of a DBA, so I'd have to defer to them. Fortunately, I'm not in an organizations where PHB's make technical decisions. A good organization leaves that kind of thing up to the senior sysadmin(s). Unless, of course, your senior sysadmins are incompetent. In which case, you're probably screwed no matter what you go with.

-matthew

netware at school (1)

spartacus_prime (861925) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966647)

Well, the network at my school uses NetWare and Novell, and I haven't had too many problems with it thus far. Of course, I'll probably have to switch to Microsoft once I graduate, but I don't see what advantages Microsoft has over Novell.

Samba migration (2, Insightful)

dtfinch (661405) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966706)

How many users has Microsoft lost to Samba?

Re:Samba migration (1)

YU Nicks NE Way (129084) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967078)

As far as anyone can tell, none.

Samba may occasionally prevent a complete Unix->Windows migration in some shops, but it's not a sufficiently compelling product to cause migrations in the other direction.

Novell puts Netware on life support until 2015 (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14966735)

Note a related story at The Register: "Novell puts Netware on life support until 2015" http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/21/novell_bra inshare/ [theregister.co.uk]

Novell lost their touch (4, Insightful)

rborek (563153) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966757)

NetWare 4 was probably the best thing since sliced bread... but they lost momentum (and everything else) with more recent versions.

I work in a Novell shop. I'm a Windows sysadmin. My preference is for Windows, so I'm looking at this from that point of view - and I'll admit I'm biased towards Windows.

Novell QA went right down the crapper in recent versions. Netware would crash multiple times per day when it was first set up (we moved from Banyan Vines) - it took years of patches from Novell to get it to any semblence of stability. The Novell client often breaks things with each new version - and it's a pain to instruct new users on the difference between a local (Windows) login and their Netware login.

While NDS is great, the management tools for it absolutely suck. Novell went schizophrenic on the management tools - you have iManage, NWAdmin, and ConsoneOne, all of which can do some things but not everything, so you need 3 management tools just to manage Netware.

Groupwise is absolutely hideous - the client is unintuitive and fell out of the ugly tree. Things which are easy to do in Outlook are a chore to do in Groupwise. Oh, and Groupwise didn't even have a flag in the client to indicate if you had replied or forwarded a message until ~2 years ago - I'd have to go searching through my Sent mail to figure out if I had replied to a message.

Novell fumbled, and Microsoft picked up the ball - Microsoft went out there with excellent marketing, developer support (including hardware/device driver support), and incentives to switch. Microsoft didn't get it right with their first versions (Windows NT 3 anyone?), but they kept at it and kept improving the software.

Re:Novell lost their touch (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14966947)

"Novell went schizophrenic on the management tools - you have iManage, NWAdmin, and ConsoneOne, all of which can do some things but not everything, so you need 3 management tools just to manage Netware."

Compared to 3 management tools, how many management tools do you need to administer all aspects of Active Directory? I use more than 3 and I need third party tools if I wanted to get real-time alerts for Failure Audits on my Windows 2003 servers.

With Exchange 2003 I am not able to audit that exactly who accessed who's mailbox, which folders, which emails. If someone shares his or her calendar with other users, logging only registers the fact that a different user accessed somebody's mailbox (calendar, actually).

Better yet, if you send an email, using Outlook on the internal network, the logging does not register the IP addresses, therefore it's impossible to trace back that exactly what was the originating workstation for an email.

Re:Novell lost their touch (1)

KingDaveRa (620784) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966948)

I have to agree with all these comments. It's a shame, but Netware is a jumbled mess of stuff. The 'classic' Netware stack doesn't seem to handle the newer services such as Apache and anything running in Java very well. Processess can run away from themselves far too easily.

It's all too easy to do things in Windows these days, whilst in Netware you have to jump through so many hoops to do the same thing.

Having said that, OES Linux has something going for it. eDirectory pees all over ADS in terms of features and stability. We run a 10-year old eDirectory which first started on Netware 4. It's broken a few times, but Novell support have managed to fix it. It broke due to comms problems and server hardware issues. I can't see ADS coping so well in the same situation. At least thanks to Identity Manager, people are using eDir to underpin their passwords and identity management.

NSS is far and away better than NTFS. The rights and permissions are much better, much more granular, and allow so much flexibility. I see so many AD-based admins asking how to do things which require 3rd-party tools to do something built into NSS.

It's a shame that people are flocking to a lesser product, but that's what aiming marketing at non-technical managers can do.

Re:Novell lost their touch/ or is it .... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14967026)

Windows is not done until Netware is broken?

Market? What Market? (1)

Mark Kroehler (682250) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966800)

Novell hasn't been a force to be reckoned with in years. I'm not even sure why Microsoft bothers. Sure miss NetWare 3.X and 4.X. Talk about stable...

It's a shame.... (5, Insightful)

Himring (646324) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966836)

I grew up with Netware. I started my career in IT with Netware 3.x. You could load it on a box with 5MB of disk space and very little RAM. It made one hell of a print server and file server. NDS came out, and quickly we began setting up NW4.11 servers. I finally acquired a job at a multi-billion dollar corporation with 10s of 1000s of users and 1000s of computers. NDS was a champ. Group policies were a cinch. If you wanted to do something at any OU level, you could imagine it and do it easily. You could set a login script or permissions from the top or at any place down, all the way to a single user. It was understandable, flowing and made sense. It happened immediately. NW4.x servers could run tons of applications and not miss a lick. We had 300 sites nation-wide with a mix of 3.x and 4.x servers.

3.12 was a gem. Those damn things ran and ran. Only hardware would take it down. Most of the time problems stemmed around 3rd party backup software. Netware was never perfect, but to me it was as perfect as any NOS could be. People rail against Btrieve, but I supported it and never remembered it being that big a deal. We had 3.11 and .12 boxes that ran for years. The time they finally died was when the corporation decided to go to Windows and we turned 'em off. We had a running tally of the longest running box found. The winner had years of run-time on it.

There wasn't a single, solitary thing wrong with Netware and no good reason, either support or money, to switch off it.

We went to Windows. NT4 was liquid shit. The old Netware guys were boggled at why we did it and wtf management was on. They joked: "got an application? make another server." Literally, we had to build a new server per database, per application, per anything. For the first time we understood that you had to restart windows, so a priority became scheduling weekly restarts of Windows boxes for no other reason than to make sure they kept running well.

As our IT shop grew and younger blood came in, we were hiring sharp, young guys who had known nothing but Windows. NT4 being ancient to them. So our main Cisco switch seemed to be an issue one day, and what do they do? They restart it. It turned out not to be the switch, but you can see their mindset -- restarting is what you do when managing servers. It's what you do with Windows.

Active Directory comes out. We use it today, but it's improved little. I manage it ever hour, and am constantly faced with the awkwardness and inability to do things in it that I could easily do a decade ago in NDS.

A server shouldn't have a fucking GUI. A server shouldn't need restarting. A server should serve data and services and that's it. It should be reliable. A directory service, directory tree should not need constant massaging and developers to create things that were built-in to another DS years ago.

The last time I ranted like this, I got modded down, but that doesn't change the fact. Management migrates off of working platforms and onto Windows for no other reason than marketing....

Re:It's a shame.... (1)

misleb (129952) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966954)

Unfortunately, Netware lost a lot of momentum after 4.11. While NDS remains a champ, teh OS itself has steadily gone downhill. Netware 6 was plagued with horrible filesystem problems before SP1. The OS itself is terribly unstable because you have a million NLMs all running at the kernel level. Unload your backup software? Ooops, ABEND! Restart Groupwise the wrong way? Critical system error! Yeah, NT4 sucked and AD still sucks, but Windows as a NOS has come a long way. Win 2k and 2003 servers have much better uptime. Of course, you still get incompetent admins who think rebooting is a solution, but I gave up defending Netware years ago.

-matthew

Re:It's a shame.... (1)

ClosedSource (238333) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966996)

"for no other reason than marketing.."

Yes, I remember how you couldn't turn a page in a computer magazine without and ad from MS saying how much better Windows NT 4.0 was than Netware.

But seriously, marketing had little to do with it. Netware had a near monopoly at one time and the market was theirs to lose. Many businesses found that MS's solution was cheaper and easier than Netware. Many companies at that time needed only the ability to share files across a network and that's all they used Netware for anyway.

Re:It's a shame.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14966997)

Management migrates off of working platforms and onto Windows for no other reason than marketing.... You have obviously never watched a Microsoft salesmen in action. Dinners, perks, etc, whatever it takes to persuade the middle Mgr/VP IT that Windows will be faster/cheaper/cure cancer whatever.

Re:It's a shame.... (1)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967090)

The last time I ranted like this, I got modded down, but that doesn't change the fact. Management migrates off of working platforms and onto Windows for no other reason than marketing.... ... and cash, summer homes, yachts, and weekend ski trips to Vale. As in kickbacks. In big companies, Microsoft pays off execs who make the decision to go from their competition to Windows.

Re:It's a shame.... (4, Insightful)

Pecisk (688001) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967193)

And you know why?

Because Highest management simply DON'T TRUST IT management, period. And I don't know a heck - why. Maybe it is because that what says IT management contraticts very heavily what is said by very polite, good looking marketing droid from Microsoft team. Maybe it is a little bit about that IT management usually can't talk a shit with arguments.

And they are not talking about not letting personal feelings in business. Heck, business IS personal feelings, want it or not.

Microsoft knew this all time along. And they have used it more and more for their good. They go stright to CIO, highest management, gets some dinner together. This is how deals are stroked.

Not out of technical merits. Why? They are not needed. Because that guy had nice shoes!

Re:It's a shame.... (1)

sonam (168626) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967248)

Well said!

Re:It's a shame.... (4, Insightful)

askegg (599634) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967303)

You are not alone in your experience. I managed Netware, Windows and Linux networks for medium sized companies for 15 years. When you use all the brands and models with an open mind you see the strengths and weakness of them.

NDS is awesome, AD is aweful. Netware is stable, but a bugger to develop to (abend anyone?). Linux is stable and easy to develop, but lacks decent enterprise management. Novell dropped the ball on management (Console1, NWadmin & iManager?) - we were promised full migration to iManager over two years ago and we still aren't even close. Windows requires constant maintenance by the three finger salute army.

Almost noone I spoke to understood why eDirectory was so good, and that's the problem. Novell were so caught up in the "we are technically better" mentality they fogot to tell anyone about it.

Maybe SuSE will save them, but it a long haul struggle and I no longer care. I have escaped the IT department and work in another field. I purchased an iMac because it is easy to use and just works.

Failed transitions? (1)

ari_j (90255) | more than 8 years ago | (#14966998)

Sure, they talk about 1.8 million successful commercial transitions. What about the failures? How many companies tried to switch to Windows and either went out of business because of it or ended up limping back to Novell or another platform? ;)

its in the Marketing, stupid. (1)

ZonkerWilliam (953437) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967004)

Novell never really marketed Netware to the point Microsoft did. Technically though Netware NDS was better than AD. Being a CNE for a couple of decades, I can say that NDS handled replication much better than Active Directory (AD). I've had replication going to outer offices with just a 16k CIR with NDS, while AD has to have a minimum of 512kb CIR for replication. Of course Novell stuck with Console1 for to long and Java is just to painfully slow to be useful.

go47 (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14967013)

impaired its Apple tto. No, Example, if you play area Try not *BSD is dead. Be a lot slower MAKES ME SICK JUST posts on Usenet are when done playing

Mouse frightens elephant (1)

FishandChips (695645) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967083)

Novell have sounded as if they are for the chop for quite a while now so Microsoft's "triumphant" announcement isn't a great deal more than the equivalent of breaking into a hospital room and trying to roger the patient. Maybe Tim O'Reilly's next annual hoedown will be marked by Microsoft announcing that more Windows books are sold than O'Reilly sells open source books, so "therefore" O'Reilly must be no good? Exactly what are Microsoft so frightened of?

Not many corporations make a habit of crossing the road to stomp on some luckless fellow just for the hell of it, but Microsoft do. Some day, their behaviour is going to come back on Microsoft like a whirlwind. It's easy to say this is just the nature of capitalism. But most companies - not to mention individuals - have more sense than to stamp on every set of fingers they find. It's not only bad for the soul, it positively asking for a horrendous payback: one day, when you need a friend or a favour, you will find absolutely no one there.

And the result of having a desktop Monopoly is... (1)

mythz (857024) | more than 8 years ago | (#14967247)

Active Directory is the #1 server software that will benefit as a result of having a Windows Desktop monopoly. Thanks to closed proprietory protocols and Microsoft anti-competitive embrace and extend tactics of LDAP and kerberos Windows desktops work best with Active Directory.

Features like Single sign-on for Windows Desktops will only work seamlessly with Active Directory.
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