Beta

Slashdot: News for Nerds

×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

cancel ×

277 comments

Contribution made to OpenSSH or OpenBSD? (5, Interesting)

Tumbleweed (3706) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061106)

Is this going directly to OpenSSH efforts, or to OpenBSD in general? There's nothing in there that specifically states which.

There has been much talk in the recent past about the difference between wanting to support OpenBSD (and by default, OpenSSH), and just OpenSSH itself. Is it even possible to support 'just' OpenSSH?

Either way, a classy move by the Mozilla Foundation.

Now if you guys can just make Thunderbird stop sucking, I'd be much happier.

Re:Contribution made to OpenSSH or OpenBSD? (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15061176)

For something like this, no, you cannot effectively donate JUST to OpenSSH. Even if you could specify this *specific* amount of money is to be used for that project, if they wanted to they could just allocate that much less of their own money.

Re:Contribution made to OpenSSH or OpenBSD? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15061535)

mod parent up +1 insightful. good point.

Re:Contribution made to OpenSSH or OpenBSD? (5, Informative)

dizzy tunez (89390) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061177)

Its going to both. OpenBSD and OpenSSH share the money. (Which is fine by me, since its the same dudes who makes the code to both projects)

Re:Contribution made to OpenSSH or OpenBSD? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15061179)

According to the source [hecker.org] linked to in the actual article, it's to OpenBSD.

When software sucks, porn blows. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15061192)

"Now if you guys can just make Thunderbird stop sucking, I'd be much happier."

Well if they did that, then geeks would be forced to get dates.

Re:Contribution made to OpenSSH or OpenBSD? (4, Funny)

dsginter (104154) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061214)

Is this going directly to OpenSSH efforts, or to OpenBSD in general?

This is going directly to Theo's "free as in beer [samsclub.com] " fund.

Re:Contribution made to OpenSSH or OpenBSD? (1, Troll)

dmorelli (615543) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061332)

This is going directly to Theo's "free as in beer [samsclub.com]" fund.

This should not be modded "Troll" It's clearly "Funny"

Re:Contribution made to OpenSSH or OpenBSD? (5, Informative)

Syberghost (10557) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061237)

The Slashdot post is misleading; they donated to the OpenBSD project in general, not one specific subproject within it. Doing that would open up a can of auditing worms that wouldn't be in anybody's best interest.

Re:Contribution made to OpenSSH or OpenBSD? (2, Informative)

Theatetus (521747) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061288)

Is this going directly to OpenSSH efforts, or to OpenBSD in general?

Since they're the same team, any donation is pretty much fungible (ie, $10,000 "for OpenSSH" still means Theo has $10,000 now freed up for OpenBSD, if that's how he sees the need to allocated it).

OT Reply (0, Offtopic)

Mr. Arbusto (300950) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061305)

After being fed up with something in Thunderbird (It just started crashing because of a Self Signed Certificate problem) I upgrade to the Latest CVS of 3.0 Alpha 1 and boy howdy it is an upgrade. Even as alpha software I have had less issues with it than I did with 1.5 and most of the annoyances are either made less annoying or don't exsist.

Just an FYI.

Re:Contribution made to OpenSSH or OpenBSD? (3, Insightful)

C_Kode (102755) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061309)

I brought this up in a "Ask Slashdot" a few days ago. (still pending) I'm a huge OpenSSH fan, but I do not use OpenBSD. I mainly use Linux for several reasons that I don't need to explain here. While I like OpenBSD I don't have a need to support OpenBSD. On the other hand I do use and would donate money to OpenSSH. The problem is, like so many of the children's charities among others. You donate $x amount of dollars and in the end not even a 4th of it goes to what you donated too. I wish OpenBSD lots of luck, but my interest lies only with OpenSSH and thats where I want my money to go.

A quote from the donations page:

Simply send a donation cheque in CDN/US/EUR funds made out to Theo de Raadt, since cheques made out to "OpenBSD" cannot be cashed.

There isn't a entity setup for OpenBSD or any other of their projects it seems. It's questionable what actually happens with the money donated.

Re:Contribution made to OpenSSH or OpenBSD? (3, Insightful)

aaronl (43811) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061365)

OpenSSH development is tied with OpenBSD because the project is *part* of OpenBSD. People just took the time to code it to be portable, and some effort is made to make sure that it works on other Unix platforms. It is more useful that way.

What you want is much like saying that you want to donate to Thunderbird, but not have the money go to the Firefox crew, as you only use Thunderbird. The same foundation is working on both, so the money goes to the group as a whole.

And yes, de Raadt really should set up a non-profit for OpenBSD, under the OpenBSD name.

Re:Contribution made to OpenSSH or OpenBSD? (3, Insightful)

Just Some Guy (3352) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061420)

I'm a huge OpenSSH fan, but I do not use OpenBSD.

Yes, you do, if you use any of the software [openbsd.org] that they ship as part of the base install. They've put thousands of hours into auditing all those and submitting their changes upstream.

Basically, you're donating to a team who audits and secures a lot of software, some of which they write in-house. It's not meaningful to ask them to work on only your pet project since none of it stands in isolation. For example, suppose that their new memory allocator shows an error in OpenSSH. Was the fix part of their ongoing authorship of OpenSSH, or would you credit it to the memory allocator project?

Re:Contribution made to OpenSSH or OpenBSD? (2, Insightful)

fimbulvetr (598306) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061580)

It's not meaningful to ask them to work on only your pet project since none of it stands in isolation

I'd say it just became a whole helluva lot more meaningful if he's willing to pay for one and not the other. Money talks, open source or not.

Re:Contribution made to OpenSSH or OpenBSD? (3, Interesting)

Just Some Guy (3352) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061642)

I'd say it just became a whole helluva lot more meaningful if he's willing to pay for one and not the other. Money talks, open source or not.

Money may talk, but you're asking it to speak gibberish. Again, there's no clear separation between OpenBSD and the OpenSSH subproject. The whole idea is like telling a C++ programmer that you want him to work on function foo(), but not class Bar which it's a part of.

Re:Contribution made to OpenSSH or OpenBSD? (3, Informative)

freshman_a (136603) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061426)


While I like OpenBSD I don't have a need to support OpenBSD. On the other hand I do use and would donate money to OpenSSH.

Uh, I hate to tell you, but it's all the same people. If you read the OpenSSH project is prettypage it states "OpenSSH is developed by the OpenBSD Project." So yes, you do have a need to support the OpenBSD project if you want them to continue to develop OpenSSH.

There isn't a entity setup for OpenBSD or any other of their projects it seems. It's questionable what actually happens with the money donated.

I'm sure they squander all the money on booze and hookers. Pardon the sarcasm, but it's pretty much the same as if you sent Linux a check to help support the Linux project. And if you check out the donations page, there's quite a list of names there. I'm sure if something fishy was happening to the money, someone would have noticed by now. Besides, the OpenBSD project is basically Theo's baby. Why would he jepordize it by not being honest?

Re:Contribution made to OpenSSH or OpenBSD? (2, Funny)

Doctor Memory (6336) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061490)

I'm sure they squander all the money on booze and hookers.

So OpenBSD's doing some marketing now? It's about time!

Re:Contribution made to OpenSSH or OpenBSD? (0, Offtopic)

tzanger (1575) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061372)

Now if you guys can just make Thunderbird stop sucking, I'd be much happier.

Agreed. I can't compose messages in plain text? I can't have signature lines automatically removed when replying and quoting? I can't change the name of my outgoing account when composing? Crazy. Gimme kmail on Win32 and I'll be much happier.

Re:Contribution made to OpenSSH or OpenBSD? (1)

NoMercy (105420) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061501)

Well, your first point at least has always been possible in Thunderbird (though it's often a bitch to find it in the configuration), In 1.5 it's under Tools->Account Settings->Composition & Addressing and untick 'Compose messages in HTML format'.

Thunderbird (3, Informative)

Noksagt (69097) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061719)

I can't compose messages in plain text?
As replied to you: yes, you can.
I can't have signature lines automatically removed when replying and quoting?
It does this too.
I can't change the name of my outgoing account when composing?
If you get the Buttons! [chuonthis.com] extension you certainly can.
Crazy. Gimme kmail on Win32 and I'll be much happier.
happy? [sourceforge.net]

Re:Contribution made to OpenSSH or OpenBSD? (1)

caluml (551744) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061383)

Now if you guys can just make Thunderbird stop sucking, I'd be much happier.

Anyone know of a plugin to allow TB read local maildirs so I don't have to run an imapd to read mail that's delivered locally?

Not long now... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15061110)

Start your timers because it will not be long till Theo starts saying bad things about Mozilla. It is his standard way of thanking those that support him and his project.

Serious question. (4, Interesting)

AltGrendel (175092) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061116)

Is this something that can be deducted from Income Tax as a charitable donation?

NO (5, Informative)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061131)

"While donations are not US tax deductible as charitable contribution" is what their website says. I guess they don't want to become a true non-profit org for some reason.

Re:NO (3, Informative)

Geekboy(Wizard) (87906) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061505)

You cannot take advantage of a Non-Profit status in Canada, on your taxes in the US.

Re:NO (4, Informative)

SigILL (6475) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061612)

I guess they don't want to become a true non-profit org for some reason.

They don't want to because of the huge administrative overhead that incurs. Theo'd much rather work on the next feature or security audit than on handling that.

Of course, you're free to set up your own non-profit "Friends of OpenBSD" foundation if you want to.

Re:Serious question. (1, Interesting)

Alex P Keaton in da (882660) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061173)

There are "Non profits" and "Not For Profits." I know these terms are used interchangeably, but I believe there is a difference.
I don't know enough about the difference between them to deliniate, but my understanding is that to be a "non profit", you have to register with the IRS and meet a bunch of standards.

Re:Serious question. (1)

biocute (936687) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061342)

Based on the wording itself, I guess "Non profits" means an organization does things that don't generate profits. For instance coordinating food relief operation, and it acts like a middleman collecting and distributing donated items.

As for "Not For Profits", it sort of implies an organization is not set up to make a profit, but it does not necessarily mean that it is not making profit. For example, a group of people get together to develop an Open Source application, their main objective is to provide a free tool to everyone, but they can still get paid for setting things up for a company.

NO (too complex for international donations) (2, Informative)

kneecap (4947) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061391)

Theo has always stated that it was more difficult to setup a non profit in Canada. There was also recent statements that for international donations it is even more difucult to do. If they were in the U.S. they could more easily accept non profit or 'Not for profit' donations from US residents but then they may run into future crypto export restrictions when they try to export advanced crypto from the US. So they stay in Canada and can do what every then need to do to keep OpenBSD, OpenSSH, OpenNTPD, OpenBGP & OpenCVS as secure as they can without worrying about politician whims on crypto export matters.

Re:Serious question. (4, Insightful)

iamdrscience (541136) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061409)

Is this something that can be deducted from Income Tax as a charitable donation?
No because they are not a registered non-profit organization, you cannot deduct contributions to them from your taxes. Honestly, I can't think for the life of me why they haven't become a non-profit yet. I mean, it's somewhat of a hassle yes, but I'm sure the benefits would be worth it. Both NetBSD and FreeBSD have set up non-profit foundations (DragonFly BSD has not).

Seriously, not having non-profit status is certainly part of why they're having trouble getting funding. It means that any contribution made to them is taxed (so they're not able to use all the money that is given to them) and I'm sure it makes companies less likely to donate to them as well because they're not able to deduct their contribution from their taxes either. I mean, I'm not saying this is the silver bullet that would solve their funding problems, but it's certainly part of it and I think it's a bigger part than they realize.

Re:Serious question. (4, Interesting)

Scott Wunsch (417) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061519)

Honestly, I can't think for the life of me why they haven't become a non-profit yet.

They may well be. However, they're also Canadian. That means:

  1. Just incorporating as a non-profit isn't enough. They'd also have to register as a charity, and in Canada, that means a lot of paperwork, and a lot of restrictions.
  2. I'm not sure how international donations work for tax purposes, but I bet it still wouldn't be easy for Americans to write off their donations, even if OpenBSD were set up as a Canadian charitable organization.

Re:Serious question. (1)

iamdrscience (541136) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061712)

I believe the way to make it easy for American companies to donate to a Canadian charity is to setup a non-profit organization in the US. I'm not an accountant or tax attourney though so I'm not sure exactly how that would be set up (i.e. I don't know whether a US non-profit would be able to give funds to Canadian OpenBSD developers directly or whether there would have to be a Canadian charity in between).

Anyways, like I said, there is some hassle in setting up a non-profit organization, but it's still probably worth it. I'm sure at least on the U.S. side of things (and probably the Canadian side as well) that it's likely they could find somebody willing to help them setup a non-profit for free if they started looking.

Nothing personal (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15061120)

"It seems that quite a few people have answered the call for aid made by OpenBSD's de Raadt."

Nice to know that some people don't let their personal feelings get in the way of doing what's right.

Congratulations to the Mozilla Foundation (5, Insightful)

stox (131684) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061130)

For clearly demonstrating they are part of the whole community. If other organizations would take the same attitude, we would all be much better for it.

Re:Congratulations to the Mozilla Foundation (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15061469)

I disagree. Donations to the Moz foundation should go toward work on improving the broswer. It's not their place to redirect donations.

Re:Congratulations to the Mozilla Foundation (2, Interesting)

JFitzsimmons (764599) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061574)

I wonder how many security patches OpenBSD has submitted to the mozilla project. I don't know, but this point makes the argument swing both ways. In theory, any software that runs on OpenBSD has to be audited for security, and any changes can be submitted upstream. Perhaps OpenBSD is doing more work for the Mozilla foundation than you might originally think.

Re:Congratulations to the Mozilla Foundation (1)

Homology (639438) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061736)

In theory, any software that runs on OpenBSD has to be audited for security, and any changes can be submitted upstream.

Ports (thirdparty software not in base system) is not audited that deeply quite simply because it would be too resource demanding. Note that the OpenBSD base system contains a lot of software.

Re:Congratulations to the Mozilla Foundation (4, Interesting)

Kelson (129150) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061692)

1. Given that Mozilla does acutlaly have a revenue stream in addition to donations, what makes you think that $10K is all redirected donations?

2. Given that "the Mozilla project uses SSH extensively for various purposes, including securing connections to the Mozilla CVS repository," perhaps supporting further development of OpenSSH might be considered important for continued development of the browser?

What about other uses of money that aren't directly "improving the browser?" Would it be acceptable for MoFo to buy new servers for download mirrors? Support forums? How about Windows licenses or Mac hardware for development workstations, build boxes, and QA?

3. While we're at it, what is it with the donate-but-with-strings-attached attitude these days?

or... (1, Funny)

buddha42 (539539) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061138)

How about donating 10K to developers who can fix memory leaks?

Re:or... (0, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15061296)

Not possible. Mozilla's code base is so fucked up, they'll never fix them all. There are something like three different memory allocation schemes used in the code, and they don't all play nicely together.

If you want to spend $10k to get a decent browser, you're better off donating to KDE to support Konqueror. Mozilla never has and never will be anything but a bloated POS.

After all, don't forget, they're not memory leaks, they're features!

Ah well, I know I'm going to get dinged as a troll for this, but I really can't come up with any way to explain just how messed up Mozilla's code is without a very lengthy post and really can't figure out a way to say "Mozilla's code sucks" without coming off as a troll. I'll just throw a link out to prmalloc.c [mozilla.org] , their custom allocator, and explain that this allocator is used to implement a malloc/free style of memory allocation, a reference counting style of memory allocation, and a mark-and-sweep garbage collector. All at once. And I think I may be missing some different implementations of those same patterns.

Each style has different patterns that cause memory leaks. All three are used together, which introduces neat patterns that cause memory leaks due to the interaction between them. That's about as short and simple as I can make it, so let the modding begin!

Re:or... (1)

qray (805206) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061552)

Ok, sorry couldn't resist, just had to post.

Actually there are probably four or five different allocations schemes within Mozilla. That's not so much of a problem as that there are several different object models all with various bridges. As new things come along the interactions can get quite complex. The memory leaks aren't due to this, but this situation makes tracking them more difficult.

To bring this back somewhat on topic. I wonder how, as time goes on, many of these open source projects will age. Mozilla code is more than 10 years old, I think. In the commercial sector you reach a point where you chuck must of the existing stuff and start from scratch. How many of these open source projects have the resources to rebuild from the ground up?
--
Q

Re:or... (1)

nuzak (959558) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061668)

You've got to love code that looks like this:


#ifdef SANITY
          if (suicide)
          PR_Abort();
#endif

Re:or... (1)

michelcultivo (524114) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061498)

We need to get the administrators of large business conscious that the software he use to login into remote systems need help to keep updated and have feature increases.

Re:or... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15061630)

There are actually very few memory leaks in Firefox (I know because I've been trying to hunt them down). Mostly memory leaks are because of extensions. Sometimes people also incorrectly assume some settings to be memory leaks, as they reserve quite a bit of memory. You propably want to read about this article:

http://www.squarefree.com/2006/02/04/memory-leak-p rogress/ [squarefree.com]

Isn't 10K too low? (3, Informative)

guyfromindia (812078) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061147)

Considering the rumors that the foundation makes something close to $72 million? (http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9588_22-6048377.html [zdnet.com] )
Quoting Chris Blizzard, a board member "I won't comment on the dollar amount, except to say that ($72 million) is not correct, though not off by an order of magnitude...."
Guess any amount is fine...but 10K seems too low, IMHO

Re:Isn't 10K too low? (1)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061211)

And how much did you donate?

Re:Isn't 10K too low? (1)

chill (34294) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061286)

And how much did you donate?

Significantly more than .01% of my annual income.

10,000 / 72,000,000 = 0.000139 or 0.0139%

Even an order of magnitude off would make that 0.139%

If my math is correct, that is the equivalent of someone who makes $40,000 / year donating $50. Of course, I may have completely invented a new (and useless) branch of mathematics here, so your $$ may vary.

  -Charles

Re:Isn't 10K too low? (1)

slavemowgli (585321) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061331)

Can't speak for the grandparent, but I have donated considera bly more than 0.01% of my annual income, too. I don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth, and the Mozilla Foundation's donation will certainly be very welcome (I assume), but it's true that they *could* have donated more.

Ah well, at least they did donate - it's more than most other people, organisations and corporations who have benefitted from OpenSSH etc. did. (Speaking of which, have you donated yet?)

Re:Isn't 10K too low? (1)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061405)

No. My donations for this month went to other projects and causes. Limited budget but they are on my list.

Re:Isn't 10K too low? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15061245)

Not really; this just funded a mini-hackathon, or kept the power on in the OpenBSD cluster in Theo's basement for just shy of 2 years.

I'm thankful that someone had the decency and good sense to step up for a project that benefits everyone in some way (yes, even those of you who don't run OpenBSD and whined about "i don't want to support BSD, just SSH" get sofware improved by being debugged on OpenBSD).

Can't we all just damn be grateful?

NO (5, Insightful)

paulpach (798828) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061285)

You could argue 0 is too low, and even then you would be wrong. Mozilla is already giving much more: The best browser in the world whose development costed a lot more in man-hours and money. They have no obligation whatsoever of giving a dime to bsd any more than you do.

So regardless of how much money the Mozilla foundation makes, if out of their heart, self interest or whatever decide to donate $10k ( or even $10), all you get to say is "thank you", and if you really want to show appreciation, ask "is there anything I can do for you?".

Re:NO (0, Flamebait)

slavemowgli (585321) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061354)

The best browser in the world is developed by Opera Software, actually... and Mozilla used to be notorious for not running correctly on OpenBSD for a long time. Maybe it's different nowadays (I haven't checked in a few years), but before this donation, the Mozilla Foundation definitely didn't care much about OpenBSD, OpenSSH etc. (the projects, that is - not the software they produced).

And besides, the projects are in need of *funding*, anyway; telling them "we gave you something much better than money already" is stupid. You could just as well give a starving man a Picasso and tell him it's worth millions; it may be true, but it won't keep him from starving.

Re:NO (1)

IndigoParadox (953607) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061459)

You're correct about the Opera thing. ;O)

However, even Mozilla it was the best browser in the world, that would be different from your example. At least the starving man could conceivably sell the Picasso.

Re:NO (2, Funny)

DevanJedi (892762) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061488)

This is true- unless he attached a note saying "Sell the Picasso!"

Re:Isn't 10K too low? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15061562)

cannot agree more.

the management board of the mozilla foundation sits on a cash pile of between 50 and 72 million. they dont even give numbers on the amount of cash the community generates. giving 10 000 to another amazing and very useful community project is an insult.

im sure that a poll among those who make mozilla to this what it is - and im not talking about the decision makers here but all the volunteer workers - would show that much more should be given to a this very useful project.

Re:Isn't 10K too low? (1)

Kelson (129150) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061738)

Hey, I'm impressed they donated anything, given the stony response [thejemreport.com] from companies like IBM, Novell and Red Hat.

10% of the target from just one donor? That doesn't sound bad at all.

Re:Isn't 10K too low? (1)

subgrappler (864963) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061744)

it sets a good example though. imagine if more companies followed mozilla's lead and started donating $$$... if ibm, novell, RH, whoever each donated 10K, then openbsd/ssh would be in much better shape.

Cisco (2, Insightful)

porkThreeWays (895269) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061153)

It's sad that Cisco isn't on the list...

Re:Cisco (1)

mr_da3m0n (887821) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061203)

because, as far as they are concerned... $ nc azrael.underwares.org 22 SSH-1.5-Cisco-1.25 I think they don't give a shit about OpenSSH.

Trace the source (4, Interesting)

quokkapox (847798) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061154)

This money is coming from the Mozilla Foundation, which makes serious dough from google searches run via the firefox browser's default start page and the default search engine field. So use firefox, hit CTRL-k to search with google, and keep it going.

That's really the core of the issue... (1)

C10H14N2 (640033) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061350)

It just doesn't instill much confidence in a project if it is so horribly mismanaged financially that they must scream that they will die unless someone just hands them a wheelbarrow full of cash when others make piles of it through creative deals. If all the energy spent flailing around begging for money had been used to figure out a similarly sustainable revenue stream, they'd no doubt end up receiving more donations out of respect for showing a shred of moxie instead of getting a pittance out of pity.

Re:Trace the source (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15061378)

Does anybody know if there's a way to disable that? To make firefox look like a regular search string?

Re:Trace the source (1)

orangeacid (909831) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061486)

I couldn't care less about openBSD or openSSH, but this ctrl-k shortcuts pretty neat :D

This just goes to show... (4, Insightful)

TechnoGuyRob (926031) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061156)

This just goes to show how little financial support there is for open source projects. Everyone thinks that the F/OSS and contracts will relieve everything, but the truth is, open source software needs all the help that it can get. Mozilla Firefox is one of the few projects that was lucky enough to gain widespread recognition, but in order for open source to survive, we must all work for it, not take it for granted.

You may not realize it, but there are countless of excellent OSS projects out there. Imagine the amount of people that have monetary troubles every single day; now image that as being a lot more difficult, and you will see the struggles of an open source programmer. Advertising and the occassional donation simply ISN'T going to do it. The worst part is, no one has figured out a source for an actual revenue stream. If we don't ensure the survival of an increasingly popular commercial model, we might face another "dotcom" crash--after all, money has to come from somewhere.

Re:This just goes to show... (4, Insightful)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061311)

The worst part is, no one has figured out a source for an actual revenue stream.

Where do people get ideas like this? Revenue comes from the same place as most software, the end users. How many people does IBM pay to work on open source software they use internally? When companies want features added, customization, or support for open source software they pay someone to provide it. It is not like this is anything new. Right now I work for a company that sells hardware with a lot of customized, closed source software on it. The boxes also include a lot of open source software on them. They run Linux or a BSD as the OS and make use of lots of popular server software. We do our development using mostly open source tools. What happens when we find a bug in something? We report it. That is free QA work. Sometimes we fix it; free coding. Sometimes we need more functionality; again free coding.

That is all work our company paid someone to do and went into open source projects. That money comes from our investors and customers. So you might say, "so what?" That is only 40-50 engineers spending maybe 5% of their time. But that is what we need, so that is what we do. There are thousands of companies out there, of all sizes, doing the same thing. Some contribute a few hours a month from one developer and some hire people full-time to just improve a project, help steer the project's direction, and be an in-house expert on it. The developers are being paid. The code is being written. The end users are getting a very good deal. That is the primary business model of open source software, and it has been working for decades.

P.S. more people would donate to Theo's cause if he could establish a proper non-profit for the US.

Re:This just goes to show... (1)

SigILL (6475) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061638)

more people would donate to Theo's cause if he could establish a proper non-profit for the US.

Why don't you do so yourself? Establish a "Friends of OpenBSD" foundation and register it with the local authorities.

Talk is cheap...

Re:This just goes to show... (1)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061695)

Why don't you do so yourself? Establish a "Friends of OpenBSD" foundation and register it with the local authorities.

I thought the, "so fix it yourself newbie!" attitude was mostly confined to actual coding. Theo is the one who asked others to donate. If the easiest way is to establish my own non-profit organization, which I would then have to manage from then on, I think I'll just skip the whole thing. It's not like I have piles of cash lying around that I just don't know what to do with. Myself and others in my company, however, could probably get management to throw some cash at a non-profit as a tax write-off, if we told them it was to our benefit (which it is). The fact that there is not a non-profit means that is unlikely to happen.

The best way to get donations is to make it easy to donate. Some of us got started in coding because we are lazy, lazy people who figured there had to be an easier way. (inspirational thanks to Heinlein's "the man who was too lazy to fail").

Re:This just goes to show... (2, Interesting)

BigZaphod (12942) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061359)

How can there be a dotcom crash of OSS? Most everyone involved in producing the stuff does it with the foreknowledge that there isn't any money in it directly - and yet they persist. That's because many people are driven more by a need to create than a need to make money. You see that in the extreme with the classic "starving artist" and a lot of the best OSS hackers fit in that same category. They do what they do for the love of it or because there's some kind of deep internal drive to create their visions. No it doesn't put food on the table, but that's often not the point. The beauty of OSS is that even if one author stops due to the demands of real life and the need to eat, their contributions are public and visible for the next hackers to step up and take over. OSS doesn't necessarily work as a model to sustain one individual; instead it works at a level above that - it is the currency of a culture.

Re:This just goes to show... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15061410)

..we might face another "dotcom" crash..

OSS sucks and is at the bottom of the totem pole already. There is nothing to really come crashing down from.

Let's hope (3, Interesting)

bogie (31020) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061170)

That he uses the money to establish a foundation that is equipped to do things like fundraising and marketing. As I said before, being a non-profit is hard as heck, he needs to run it like a business and hire people who have real world non-profit experience. Raising just enough money to get by without committing to major organizational change is extremely shortsighted. Let's also hope that others follow the Mozilla foundation's example.

Re:Let's hope (0, Troll)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061385)

Not going to happen. Theo's ego would never allow him to turn that over to someone that could raise money effectively.
I just hope that the OpenSSH project gets spun off soon. It would get funded by Red Hat, SuSE, IBM, and goodness knows how many other vendors.

Good things come... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15061175)

....to those that whine.

Or was that "it's the squeaky wheel that everyone hates until one day they clobber it with a hammer"?

Well, I'll give it a shot... (3, Funny)

dominion (3153) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061188)

The Appleseed Project [sourceforge.net] could use funding. And a foot massage.

Mostly we'll just settle for a foot massage.

$10,000 doesn't go very far (4, Insightful)

RingDev (879105) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061225)

Think of it this way, if the median salary for the development team is say $55k/year, plus benefits and taxes, and there are what maybe 4 team members (developers + manager)? You are looking at a cool 1/4 mil per year. Which means that $10k will keep the developers paid for roughly half a month of full time work.

Nothing against OS development, but if you want a professional package, someone has to pay for it.

-Rick

Re:$10,000 doesn't go very far (1)

OttoM (467655) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061325)

Most OpenSSH/OpenBSD developers work for free. They are volunteers, they love what they do.

Which doesn't mean they do not produce good code. Probably the quality is higher than what you'll see produced by most profesional developers.

Read some of the background articles to learn what the money will be spend on.

Re:$10,000 doesn't go very far (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15061329)

fucking jews

Re:$10,000 doesn't go very far (1)

mnemonic_ (164550) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061437)

You know, if the developers were all actually regularly paid that much, they probably wouldn't be asking for donations. Most open source development proceeds unpaid, donations are used for tangible assets like hardware or bandwidth. In that way, $10,000 can pay for a lot. It may shock you, but much of the Internet was built on volunteer programming.

Good for Mozilla. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15061356)

Although I can see how OpenBSD and OpenSSH aren't doing themselves any favors by alienating people with obnoxious comments and general indifference.

Latest example:
A lots of people/companies asked the OpenSSH group to include the ability to include rate limiting due to large SSH user/dictionary attacks being run by script kiddies. One person even WROTE it for them. I believe the OpenSSH group's response was "Not an ssh problem."

Dissappointing.

Re:Good for Mozilla. (5, Informative)

liliafan (454080) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061412)

I can see their point, there are other ways to get around this problem and other tools available to people. OpenSSH is a secure project every feature you add is another potential security hole, so really is makes sense for them to refuse to add this feature, in other instances where there is no other way to workaround this problem the developers would willingly add the code to the project but this particular case has other solutions.

Re:Good for Mozilla. (5, Informative)

DeBeuk (239106) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061576)


A lots of people/companies asked the OpenSSH group to include the ability to include rate limiting due to large SSH user/dictionary attacks being run by script kiddies. One person even WROTE it for them. I believe the OpenSSH group's response was "Not an ssh problem."


It's not an ssh problem. Connection rate limiting is something you really want to do with a firewalling solution.

Re:Good for Mozilla. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15061603)

Rate limiting a port ISN'T OpenSSH's problem. You have traffic shaping in your OS already.

Re:Good for Mozilla. (3, Informative)

lactose99 (71132) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061613)

Considering OpenBSD's pf packet filter already has support for connection rate limiting (and it works quite nicely), I'm inclined to agree with them. You could always run sshd via inetd or xinetd for connection limiting if needed.

Conspiciously absent... (3, Informative)

rongage (237813) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061377)

If you looked through the list of donations on Theo's donations page, it's quite curious that some of the larger commercial interests in the Linux World (RedHat, Novell, etc...) are NOT in there.

Of course, they may have requested no publicity.

This is Slashdot, I'll let you draw your own conclusions here... :)

Re:Conspiciously absent... (-1, Troll)

RLiegh (247921) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061649)

Why should they be? OpenSSH deliberately chose to distribute its' product under the BSD license, which makes a point of putting its' users under NO obligations whatsoever.

Theo should consider himself lucky that RedHat didn't decide to put some of it's many talented and professional coders to work under a GNU licensed fork of SSH and cut off his revenue stream. Ethically and Legally there's nothing to prevent them (or anyone else) from doing just that.

Re:Conspiciously absent... (1)

Anubis350 (772791) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061718)

"Ethically and Legally there's nothing to prevent them (or anyone else) from doing just that."

Perhaps, but itd be rather stupid to alienate the many developers who are intimately familliar with the code, very very good at auditing it for security and stability, and have maintained it for a long time....

Re:Conspiciously absent... (5, Informative)

SigILL (6475) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061700)

some of the larger commercial interests in the Linux World (RedHat, Novell, etc...) are NOT in there.

Of course, they may have requested no publicity.

Nope, they just didn't donate [theaimsgroup.com] .

Hell, IBM even wanted the OpenBSD team to handle end-user support for one of their high-paying customers for free.

Re:Conspiciously absent... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15061739)

My uninformed speculation...

If you were a linux vendor then Theo's plea probably sounds something like this: "Hi, I produce an operating system in direct competition with your main product. Also, I take every opproutunity to remind the world how bad I think your product is and that your developers are idiots. Please send me money."

At least that's been my reasoning about it. Its sad that it becomes a matter of personality, but that's the way it is. At least that's been my personal reaction to all this... when I first saw the call for donations I thought about it for a little bit but finally decided "screw it, Theo is too much of a prick" And I actually *LIKE* OpenBSD (although it's been about 8 years since I used it regularly). I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought this.

If OpenSSH (including the portable branch!) *specifically* needed funding I'd throw them a few bucks. I'm not interested in their whole "Like OpenSSH? Then fund all our other work!" line of reasoning. You'd think that OpenBSD would have enough of a userbase that they could concentrate their fundraising efforts there.

This is great news, however... (3, Insightful)

pestilence669 (823950) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061396)

I've noticed some undue emphasis placed on OpenSSH & OpenSSL. They are GREAT packages, but not the only thing people benefit from. Don't forget, that nearly every commercial operating system has pilfered code from the BSD projects.

EVERYBODY should contribute, especially the companies that have profited from the hard work of the team.

Re:This is great news, however... (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15061543)


I've noticed some undue emphasis placed on OpenSSH & OpenSSL. They are GREAT packages, but not the only thing people benefit from. Don't forget, that nearly every commercial operating system has pilfered code from the BSD projects.

Contrary to popular belief the OpenSSL project has nothing to do with OpenBSD.

Re:This is great news, however... (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15061740)

every commercial operating system has pilfered code from the BSD projects.

EVERYBODY should contribute, especially the companies that have profited from the hard work of the team.


"Pilfered" gives the impression of theft, whereas the BSD license gives users the right to re-use the code essentially as they see fit, so if a company uses BSD code to built some very successful and profitable software, then they owe nothing to anyone, as the person licensing it said it was ok to do that.

For example, the Windows FTP client (Ftp.exe) actually contains the statement "Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California" since it is based on BSD-licensed code - open the file in Notepad and have a look. Aside from this, my guess is that MS gave nothing for the use and, as much as you may hate MS, they are perfectly entitled to do so.

I'd just like to say (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15061462)

Thanks MFD :)

So... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15061531)

Given how it's built on OS software and undoubtably leverages openSSH, the question is:

When is Google gonna step up?

Donation is to OpenBSD, not OpenSSH (2, Informative)

QuietLagoon (813062) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061545)

From the Frank Hecker's report of Mozilla foundation activities [hecker.org] :

OpenBSD project. The Mozilla Foundation made a $10K donation to the OpenBSD project in support of development of OpenBSD, OpenSSH, and related activities. The OpenBSD project does great work in the area of creating a secure Unix-like operating system (which runs Firefox, of course) and developing related security technologies. In particular the Mozilla project uses SSH extensively for various purposes, including securing connections to the Mozilla CVS repository. The OpenBSD and OpenSSH projects have been experiencing some financial difficulties, and based on their importance to the Mozilla project and to the wider open source and free software world we felt that it was well worth showing our support for them.

The Widow's Mite (1)

Illbay (700081) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061556)

According to Jesus [lds.org] , the $50 I gave to OpenSSH last year tops Mozilla.

(So where's my thread?)

Re:The Widow's Mite (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15061662)

And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

Dude, Two things:

1) Throwing money at a project forked off a demon won't get you to heaven.
2) Theo might be vocal, but he is hardly the son of God, however much he thinks he is. :)

Mozilla - "OpenSSH" - Beer! Laundry Time! (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15061566)

It's not surprising that large businesses won't donate to "OpenBSD" or "OpenSSH"; just look at the project's donation pages and see who you have to write the checks to. That's right, "Checks made out to OpenSSH cannot be deposited"; you are giving your money to Theo personally.

Now, you don't have to ask around much to find out how that money is handled. Hell, some of it seems to literally go under his mattress. What's it get spent on then? Maybe OpenBSD, maybe beer and a giant new SUV; how do you really know? A charity would be required to do actual bookkeeping about its donations, but then again maybe now it's a little more clear why OpenBSD isn't a charity, unlike all the other major open-source projects.

A question worth asking: is it legal for Mozilla Foundation, a 501(c)3 charity, to give donations other people made to *it* to Theo personally, when they know (or would have to be negligent to not know) how the money will be handled when it gets there -- that there is no guarantee it will actually be spent to further MozF's charitable purpose?

If they're essentially laundering money for a non-exempt entity (heh, "entity"; I guess a person and his beer fund are an "entity") MozF could get in a lot of trouble. It's not hard to see why more careful donors steer clear.

(Of course, what do you really expect from a project^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hbeer fund whose principal fund-raising tactic is to threaten to abandon this or that unless you send cash to the *person* in charge? None of the other major open-source projects do that either. Go figger. Sigh.)

OpenBSD and the money (5, Insightful)

menix (179754) | more than 8 years ago | (#15061723)

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=114312315700005&r= 1&w=2 [theaimsgroup.com]

There has been such a great soap opera on this on the OpenBSD mailing list.

It's nice to see mozilla.org donate some cash but the real money should be coming from IBM, Redhat, Cisco and all the other vendors that bundle OpenSSH into their products. Somewhere in that post is a link to an email chain where IBM demanded Theo fix a bug that was in OpenSSH. (I believe the bug was fixed in a more recent version of OpenSSH then they were bundling.)

Sure, they could change the license for OpenSSH and start making money off it but that's missing the point of what the BSD license is all about.

It costs a lot of money to run that project and keep ahead of the jerks who are trying to break into your systems every day.

If you use products from vendors that have OpenSSH bundled in them and they aren't on http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html [openbsd.org] then send them an email and ask them to give regularly. that's the only thing we can do to help keep us safe on this hostile internet!

GO PUFFY

Load More Comments
Slashdot Account

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?

Don't worry, we never post anything without your permission.

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>
Create a Slashdot Account

Loading...