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Red Hat Gives up on Fedora Foundation

Zonk posted more than 8 years ago | from the tip-of-the-hat dept.

295

phaedo00 writes "Ars Technica writes up Red Hat's giving up on the Fedora Foundation: 'In an open letter distributed to the Fedora community earlier this week, Red Hat employee and Fedora project leader Max Spevack states that Red Hat is no longer interested in establishing an autonomous, nonprofit foundation to manage the Fedora project. Instead, Red Hat will revive the Fedora Project Board, which will include five Red Hat representatives, four members of the Fedora community, and a chairman appointed by Red Hat who will possess veto power.'"

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funny, (3, Funny)

joe 155 (937621) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077232)

When I first clicked on this it said "nothing for you to see here, please move along"... I felt a bit like one of the completely marginalised Fedora people now they have a lovely minority and no veto power

Re:funny, (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077308)

Did they offer you oral copulation?

Bush Indicts Self: +1, Extremely Funny (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077479)


"We'll bring the parties responsible for the leaking of classified documents to justice [nationaljournal.com] .
                                          --- George W. Bush
Take another snort George.

Sincerely,
K. Trout, Patriot

One more reason to support Kubuntu (2, Insightful)

billybob2 (755512) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077555)

One more reason why Kubuntu is Fedora/SUSE as the major community-led Linux distribution that aims to be easy to use.

One more reason to support Assbuntu (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077865)

One more reason why Assbuntu is Fedora/GNAA as the major community-led Linux distribution that aims to be easy to use.

first post (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077240)

first post!

Red Hat... (0, Troll)

JordanL (886154) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077241)

A lot of people support red hat on the principal that they are trying to get the world to adopt something which is open at its core... why are open source proponents turning a blind eye to how Red Hat's actions and nonconducive to the open source ideal?

Re:Red Hat... (0)

Lilo-x (93462) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077285)

This is a good thing, ultimately this will mean continued development of Fedora and means it will not fizzle out like some other open source projects and community run distros.

Fedora is a nice distro, hopefully they can address the upgrade path and legacy issues, I think security legacy updates should be brought in house and distributed amongst the update mirrors.

Re:Red Hat... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077290)

because redhat is the one funding and supplying about half the engineers to this project, and the purpose of the foundation was a patent repository for the open source community, and nothing else.

Re:Red Hat... (4, Insightful)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077313)

why are open source proponents turning a blind eye to how Red Hat's actions and nonconducive to the open source ideal?

Name one.

Seriously and with no hand-waving, name one action where Red Hat's actions were "nonconducive to the open source ideal." Back it up with WHY it is what you claim it is. You are going to have a tough time.

Re:Red Hat... (5, Informative)

gowen (141411) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077414)

To quote from the LWN thread:
Just some of the things that Red Hat spends a ton of money to create or enhance:
- gcc
- glibc
- SELinux
- udev
- Xen
- GNOME
- Many other parts of the kernel
- X.org
- Fedora Directory Server (bought for millions, open sourced, development continues)
- NetworkManager
- Dogtail
- Open Source Java (gcj and Classpath)
- Internationalization (Input Methods, Translation, Localization, etc.)
Goddamn Red Hat, and their secret plans to under mine Open Source by throwing money at it :)

I know! (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077446)

why are open source proponents turning a blind eye to how Red Hat's actions and nonconducive to the open source ideal?



Name one.

They make money off of F/OSS! They're supposed to do everytyhing for free! They're just some corporation with their CEOs sitting in their offices being all corporaty and stuff!

Re:Red Hat... (2, Insightful)

Deagol (323173) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077374)

People are giving up on Redhat.

I used their products from the 6.x days to 9.0, Enterprise Server 2.x, and Fedora 4. I was mostly happy with them, and was willing to give them a chance after they split off Fedora from mainline Redhat. I then switched jobs to a FreeBSD shop, and I've been a convert ever since, from my workstation at the office to my home machines. The base system is a high performer and stable, and the ports tree is well maintained and much better than RPMs ever were.

After recently trying Fedora Core 5 and Gentoo due to the need to run the new free VMWare server product, I decided that Fedora has gone beyond bloated and sucky, and that if I were to ever prefessionally recommend any Linux flavors, they'd be Gentoo and the free Redhat Enterprise clones (Whitebox, etc.).

I can't say that Redhat has necessarily "sold out" but they're not the company I cheer for anymore. Granted, they *are* pushing good technologies, like Xen, but aside from the fringe benefits of their clout, I don't like them much these days.

Re:Red Hat... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077415)

Well if you made the switch, it must be all "people" right? Just because it wasn't the right tool for your job, does not mean it isn't for someone else's.

Don't be an ass (1)

Deagol (323173) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077540)

Notice that I said "people" and not "all people". Many of my current peers have few good things to say about Redhat (some of them never did to begin with). I'm sure my admitedly anecdotal evidence is not unique in this regard. Redhat may be a good choice for the "suits" but many of us with autonomy in the trenches do not care for it and don't use it when we aren't required to.

Re:Red Hat... (2, Insightful)

archen (447353) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077635)

I, like you; switched from Redhat to FreeBSD, however I don't think I agree with them going "beyond bloated and sucky". Lets face it, Redhat has been doing whatever they want to for YEARS, doing stuff like sticking config files in bizarre locations. The bloat and suck you describe are more attributed to the packages installed being bloated than the hand of Redhat itself (gtk1 vs gtk2 for instance).

One vendor for a software system I work at stick to Redhat/fedora. Why they never went with debian I'll never know. So I installed fedora core 4 with no gui and it's pretty much the same as it ever was. Config files and stuff moved and many things are done differently (surprize surprize) but overall it's nothing drastic.

But yeah, once you get your hand in the FreeBSD ports collection you tend to cringe thinking about the RPM hell of yester-year. It really has gotten better...

Re:Red Hat... (0, Flamebait)

talksinmaths (199235) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077846)

I decided that Fedora has gone beyond bloated and sucky, and that if I were to ever prefessionally recommend any Linux flavors..

You may not fully comprehend the connotations associated with the term professional (at least when used in reference to making business decisions involving Linux). In a professional environment, you'd have a difficult time justifying your decisions using criteria such as 'bloated' and 'sucky'.

Re:Red Hat... (1)

jdogalt (961241) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077977)

> After recently trying Fedora Core 5 and Gentoo due to the need to
> run the new free VMWare server product, I decided that Fedora has
> gone beyond bloated and sucky, and that if I were to ever
> prefessionally recommend any Linux flavors, they'd be Gentoo and
> the free Redhat Enterprise clones (Whitebox, etc.).

The fact that you still recommend RHEL clones shows that RedHat's influence isn't going anywhere. As long as RH can put out a product that people are willing to clone, they'll do just fine. Because when people and projects get hooked on a RHEL clone distro, there is a better than fair chance that if that project ever hits the really big bucks, that a large government or corporate client will want to toss RH a few big checks for their support and peace of mind.

Situations like the above are why RH probably doesn't mind that many beginners are in fact giving up on them. They have already passed the maturity threshold where they are focusing on bringing in that stream of aforementioned big checks, instead of relying on cultivating a large user culture so that sometime down the road, they can start bringing in those big checks.

-jdog

Yaaah! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077252)

Whoo first post!

Total pwnage!!! AYBABTU (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077267)

All your base are belong to us!!!

So says Red Hat. LOL!

ObTroll (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077269)

RPM sucks! DEB rulez!

First. (0, Troll)

Avillia (871800) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077272)

I have no doubt that there will be numerous unhappy people that Red Hat is going to keep a hardness on the Fedora project. Perhaps other community members will express interest in setting up the foundation: It's a good idea to have a open source project not intended to be incorporated into Red Hat not being governed by Red Hat.

Who knows, they could be the next M$!

Let the flaming commense.

Re:First. (-1)

Lilo-x (93462) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077339)

if you feel this way then use CentOS

personally having RedHat involved with fedora makes me feel more comforable about using it,

I currently have around 200 fedora boxes, it is not easy as a sysadmin looking after them, but fedora has always developed, I see the short lifespan of releases being the downfall of it being chosen, it would have made more sense to make a distro that has a LONG life span.

Re:First. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077364)

Let the flaming commense.

OK. I think "commence" is the word you're looking for!

Re:First. (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077438)

And I really hope he/she meant "harness" instead of "hardness".

Re:First. (1)

Kadin2048 (468275) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077847)

Call it a Freudian slip...

One way or the other, they're going to be RedHat's bitch.

Re:First. (1)

ConvenienceComputers (932844) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077807)

No! Never ever compare RedHat with Micr*s*ft!! ;-)

If this is a reaction to the terminally flawed FC5 (1, Insightful)

kawabago (551139) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077276)

It's probably a good idea. There is so much broken in Fedora Core 5 it's hard to see how they managed to ship it. To be fair some of the problems are due to Gnome's habit of taking 1/2 a step forward and 4 steps back with every new release.

Re:If this is a reaction to the terminally flawed (2, Insightful)

Spiked_Three (626260) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077468)

I've tried every FC since it came out. This (FC5) is the first one that ran worth a crap. Although I will admit uninstalling bluetooth support crashed the whole thing and i had to re-install - but that seems pretty typical of my linux experiences.

One thing that just can't happen in open source is to get so many diversified projects to run together nicely - it is not the nature of open source. Not that any one piece is bad on it's own - there is just no single entity accountable for getting them all together and thoroughly tested as a whole. Simple QA at best is all you can hope for, not a year of open beta.

If you're not good at getting the individual pieces to work by themselves, Linux is probably not a good thing to be using.

Re:If this is a reaction to the terminally flawed (1)

kfg (145172) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077878)

If you're not good at getting the individual pieces to work by themselves, Linux is probably not a good thing to be using.

This is supposed to be the very role that distributors play, so you don't have to.

No, they can't make sure that every bit of software in the world works with their distribution, but the definition of a final release is that the bits included and supported in the release work and are supported.

KFG

Re:If this is a reaction to the terminally flawed (2, Interesting)

jjohnson (62583) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077851)

I installed FC5 on an old X600 Thinkpad, and it runs great for me, even running KDE. It installed clean and I've seen nothing broken in it yet.

What do you think is broken on it?

Giving up on Fedora? (5, Insightful)

cashman73 (855518) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077301)

I wouldn't say that they're necessarily giving up on Fedora. It sounds to me like they see the value in Fedora and don't want to give up control of it,... ;-)

Re:Giving up on Fedora? (1, Insightful)

Ian Wolf (171633) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077323)

Sounds a little like Sun and Java doesn't it?

Re:Giving up on Fedora? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077378)

And where in the article or summary does it say they ARE giving up on Fedora?

Re:Giving up on Fedora? (3, Informative)

Nasarius (593729) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077611)

It seems you didn't even finish reading the headline. Red Hat is giving up on the Fedora Foundation, which would have been "an autonomous, nonprofit foundation to manage the Fedora project."

Re:Giving up on Fedora? (1)

cowbutt (21077) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077727)

Fedora != Fedora Foundation. RTFA. :-)

Re:Giving up on Fedora? (2, Informative)

cashman73 (855518) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077845)

I DID RTFA. That's exactly my point. If you read the slashdot headline, "Red Hat Gives up on Fedora Foundation," it makes it sounds like they're just giving up on the Fedora Foundation. When, in actuality, they're actually adding more internal structure and making it a bit closer to their own organization, so that they have more control over the project.

Question for Red Hat guys (0, Troll)

Monkelectric (546685) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077343)

I was involved in the formation of Linux distribution -- long ago ... So I know the teritory...

I'd like to ask the linux community, is Red Hat still relevant?

Re:Question for Red Hat guys (2, Informative)

grasshoppa (657393) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077473)

I'm willing to bet, were there a way to accurately gauge, we'd find that RH and it's derivites have the largest install base of all the distros.

So yes, they are relevant. Software is written with RH in mind. It might work on other systems, but the target system is RH.

Re:Question for Red Hat guys (2, Insightful)

tyrr (306852) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077581)

More than ever.
RedHat is making enterprise quality Linux distribution, i.e. carefully designed, thoroughly tested, and planed support for 5+ years.
Running Linux just for the sake of running Linux is not cool any more. People use Linux to actually get something done. Linux-based projects nowdays spawn for well over 5 years, and they require a solid OS provider.
Fedora is really just a playground. RHEL or CentOS builds of RHEL are a lot more interesting.

Re:Question for Red Hat guys (1, Redundant)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077617)

"I'd like to ask the Linux community, is Red Hat still relevant?"

Yes.
Red Hat is actually making money from Linux. Why is that relevant? Because they are PAYING people to enhance Linux.
The have spent large sums of money on GCC, Gnome, X.org, and Xen.
Look at the things they have written and maintain and or contributed to.
cairo
glib
gtk+
dbus
LVM2
ext3
gfs and gfs2
JFFS2
SELinux

RedHat has made money from OSS and has put money back into OSS. They are not my distro of choice but they have become one of the business friendly faces that the Suits can trust while at the same time giving back to the OSS community.
Gentoo is more cooler. Ubuntu is the doing well on the desktop but RedHat and Novell/SuSE are the big business Linux leaders.

Re:Question for Red Hat guys (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077648)

"is more cooler"?

Re:Question for Red Hat guys (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077888)

Yeah, you know, like a water cooler.

Re:Question for Red Hat guys (0, Flamebait)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077629)

RedHat is still relevant, but IMO if you are willing to use Fedora, you are a sucker of the highest order, and if you are willing to use RedHat in your commercial environment, you are a right bastard. I will proceed to explain: I feel that RedHat broke their covenant with the Linux community when they eliminated the free as in beer stable distribution. RedHat sees the Linux community as nothing but advertising and free QA.

Re:Question for Red Hat guys (1)

ebvwfbw (864834) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077824)

I'd like to ask the linux community, is Red Hat still relevant?

IMHO This sounds like a silly question to me. RedHat is still THE linux distribution. Everyone still makes sure they run on it and more companies support it than any other distro. At least that is the case for servers. Financially I understand they are still the only ones that have actually made money. I still look and try other distros. The next best I think is Suse (Novell).

I welcome them coming back. There is such a thing as too many cooks in the kitchen. I can see that with FC-4 and more so with FC-5 that is happening.

Re:Question for Red Hat guys (2, Interesting)

WhiteWolf666 (145211) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077886)

Well, Dell distributes RedHat Enterprises Linux.

What does that tell you? :)

Corporate involvement (1)

tcopeland (32225) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077347)

> How corporate involvement affects real open source projects

I dunno. PMD has certainly benefitted greatly from corporate involvement; the reason that the most recent release included support for checking JSP/JSF code [blogs.com] was that a corporate-sponsored developer put together a nice JavaCC grammar and did all the integration work.

As the project lead, I'm happy that PMD has new functionality and a larger audience, not least of all because that may lead to more book sales [pmdapplied.com] ! One can but hope, anyhow.

Re:Corporate involvement (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077399)

what ... the fuck ... is PMD?

you talk about it like people are supposed to even know what it stands for!

Fedora will never be a production OS (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077351)


Fedora will never be a fully functional production OS, for it's in the conflict with Red Hat's ability to sell its "enterprise" products.

For people who need a stable, secure, easy to maintain OS to run their production systems I would recommend Debian.

Re:Fedora will never be a production OS (0, Troll)

grasshoppa (657393) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077517)

Fedora will never be a fully functional production OS, for it's in the conflict with Red Hat's ability to sell its "enterprise" products.

Good point.

For people who need a stable, secure, easy to maintain OS to run their production systems I would recommend Debian.

That's great, but what if you want something usable? Debian's packages are so old that it's mostly irrelevant in situations where you need to interoperate with any windows technology.

Re:Fedora will never be a production OS (1)

Serpent Mage (95312) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077991)

That's great, but what if you want something usable? Debian's packages are so old that it's mostly irrelevant in situations where you need to interoperate with any windows technology.

And for those who want something usuable you have FC4/Ubuntu breezy and if you want something up-to-date you have FC5/Ubuntu dapper.

Re:Fedora will never be a production OS (1)

twocents (310492) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077687)

You are correct, but has the goal ever been to make Fedora enterprise ready without any experimental inclusions? I don't think so. Also, Red Hat makes most of their $ from service anyway, so direct comparisons between Red Hat the service company versus Debian a distro company are a bit out of line. Red Hat does have a distro, of course, but they are a corporation that is more into "solutions".

Fedora no longer relevant? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077370)

This is the final nail in the coffin. Thanks for destroying the overrated, buggy, bloated piece of shit Fedora. Ubuntu and Gentoo are where it's at today.

Leave Red Hate.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077376)

Suse is better anyways. :-)

"Eat your brain!" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077392)

Does anyone still have a link to the mock IRC chat from the different parts of RedHat and the mixed messages it was sending regarding the Fedora project? It would be nice if someone updated it. It seems to me that Fedora is just rebranded name for RawHide with some smoke and mirrors about accepting community involvement. I had tried to get involved for a while and decided that it was hard enough to just get a chance to chat with someone that had any power to really make changes. There was no hope that I would ever get to *be* part of the tight small "community" that really get to modify SPEC files.

What the hell? (4, Funny)

fak3r (917687) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077413)

What's going on here? With MS releasing Linux drivers for virtualization, Apple releasing code to run XP on Macs, and now Red Hat dropping the community they created it's like April fools all week!

My head hurts, time to go back to work and ignore all of this (right! [fak3r.com] )

Re:What the hell? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077516)

and now Red Hat dropping the community they created it's like April fools all week!

They are not dropping support for the Fedora community. They are not going to create a nonprofit Fedora foundation, because (according to them) it is just more trouble then it is worth.

Re:What the hell? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077527)

Don't forget Mambo cms got sold out this week by one person being greedy.

Re:What the hell? (1)

eric_brissette (778634) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077934)

I haven't been following Mambo news as closely as I used to since moving to Joomla. Care to elaborate?

Want similar at Gentoo (0, Troll)

xenoterracide (880092) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077431)

get rid of this damn foundation. I want it back under the system it had when Dan Robbins was here, and I want him back

These pricks running the show now are idiots

I love Gentoo. Go ahead and flame away. Yes I am a Gentoo zealot

Fedora/RedHat is dead (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077442)

I'm sorry but everything is Ubuntu nowadays.

I really believe the RPM format is what killed Fedora because they otherwise had big bucks behind the distro. You just can't cover up flaws like that though. I know they have come out with newer stuff like yum and apt for RPM but it's too late and that stuff is shoehorned into an existing infrastructure that wasn't meant to work like that (and again, too many options is confusing for the user). I mean that up2date thing is slow as hell compared to apt. Try using a Fedora Desktop evironment on a 166 Mhz Pentium machine. It's no picnic with Ubuntu either but using Fedora is beyond absurdly slow. I could complain about most distros in this repect, Windows XP screams on a 166 Mhz machine (no kidding!) compared to any Linux distro except the barely functional (read: ugly) distros that use things like XFCE (gag).

Re:Fedora/RedHat is dead (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077463)

166 mHz pentium? Please, step into at least 1999.

Re:Fedora/RedHat is dead (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077736)

Just because a faster computer can run it doesn't mean you should write slow-ass software.

That's the whole problem. Programmers are getting lazy because new machines are so fast but you add up all that slowness and it becomes a huge nasty-ass slow system.

Re:Fedora/RedHat is dead (4, Interesting)

dougmc (70836) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077692)

I'm sorry but everything is Ubuntu nowadays.
Oh really? Seems to me that businesses love Redhat (and the clones like Whitebox) more for than everybody else put together. And Fedora Core is quite popular as well with the desktop user.
I know they have come out with newer stuff like yum
yum is very nice. Really, I never did understand why people hated rpm so much. Any sort of package management that also handles dependancies is going to add some complexity, and even then yum and the respositories makes it all pretty much automatic. I'm no rpm fanboy, but it does do it's job.
It's no picnic with Ubuntu either but using Fedora is beyond absurdly slow.
So, they picked a window manager by default that uses a lot of resources. So change it.
except the barely functional (read: ugly) distros that use things like XFCE (gag).
Barely functional and ugly have nothing in common. And xfce seemed plenty functional to me, and plenty fast. (Of course, I'm still using fvwm as my window manager, the same window manager I used back when I had a 166 MHz box and probably even further back than that.)

But you are right about one thing -- XP does work fine on my wife's 233 MHz laptop w/ 128 MB ram. I wouldn't say it screams, but it runs fine, and the only time she complained about the performance was when she put the Sims on it and it couldn't keep up. Of course, Fedora Core also works fine on the same laptop, even with the default gnome window manager, so maybe you just did something wrong.

Re:Fedora/RedHat is dead (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077969)

Geez, what is it with people today? Don't they teach reading comprehension in school any more?

Oh really? Seems to me that businesses love Redhat (and the clones like Whitebox) more for than everybody else put together. And Fedora Core is quite popular as well with the desktop user.

RedHat and similar companies (Mandrake or whateverthefuck it's called now, SUSE) have traditionally been the only large companies providing backing for Linux. Other companies like that support. This doesn't mean the distro is any good just because a business uses it.

Desktop users are all switching to Ubuntu. So while Fedora might be "quite popular" it ain't the cat's meow.

yum is very nice. Really, I never did understand why people hated rpm so much. Any sort of package management that also handles dependancies is going to add some complexity, and even then yum and the respositories makes it all pretty much automatic. I'm no rpm fanboy, but it does do it's job.

I didn't say yum's functionality sucked. I said it was slow as hell (ie. poorly written POS). I did say RPM sucked though and it does.

So, they picked a window manager by default that uses a lot of resources. So change it.

I didn't say anything about window managers. It's the distro specific stuff that sucks (boot time, package management).

Barely functional and ugly have nothing in common. And xfce seemed plenty functional to me, and plenty fast. (Of course, I'm still using fvwm as my window manager, the same window manager I used back when I had a 166 MHz box and probably even further back than that.)

Usability and look are often the same thing. Sorry if I wasn't clear but "ugly" to me means it has a bad feeling to it, it's hard to use or whatever. The functionality and look of FVWM or XFCE is crap. It works for sure, but it feels awful compared to a modern system (GNOME, KDE, Windows, OS X).

But you are right about one thing -- XP does work fine on my wife's 233 MHz laptop w/ 128 MB ram. I wouldn't say it screams, but it runs fine, and the only time she complained about the performance was when she put the Sims on it and it couldn't keep up.

I didn't say "Windows XP screams" I said it screams compared to most Linux distros. Make sure you read what others write before responding.

Of course, Fedora Core also works fine on the same laptop, even with the default gnome window manager, so maybe you just did something wrong.

Where did I say it wouldn't work smartass? I said it was slow as hell.

Why not use another more solid OS? (0, Troll)

virtualmyles (816176) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077482)

There are FAR better *nix based OSes out there that aren't nearly as troublesome as the redhate/fagora project. If you want uber simplicity, why not use FreeBSD? Need a webserver up and running in 20 minutes- how about OpenBSD?

Re:Why not use another more solid OS? (1)

pl1ght (836951) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077499)

I cant tell whether to mod as funny or a troll....

Re:Why not use another more solid OS? (2, Funny)

HoosierPeschke (887362) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077574)

neither, you just posted...

The reason is very simple (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077507)

Economics.

This is where the Free Software (Free as in no exchange of currency for the value you are getting) fails.

No commercial company can sustain that amount of development and give the product away. Period. Time will prove this correct. Either the companies will change their business models or they will die or be contained to a very small market and won't even come close to entering Microsoft's market.

I understand the whole idea behind the fedora project from RedHat's business perspective was to help adopt people to linux as well as grow its user base. The question you have to ask yourself is "how much" is that martketing costing the company? Obviously, too much.

And still, if you look at Fedora Core 5 as a desktop OS which is what its trying to be it's incomplete, buggy, is missing lots of default multimedia packages, the appplication are still way too fragmented. Sure there are lots of improvments, I'm running it right now, however if you compare it to XP, Microsoft as *nothing* to worry about in term of head to head competition. That's just the reality that must be recognized if you're going to improve and compete.

I think redhat ought to use fedora as its core product and develop that and charge for it. REL is just to slow in terms of advancments, in my opinion fedora is the better product, they just need to focus on refining it.

As it is, I would pay a flat $50-80.00 for fedora and think I'm getting a good deal. I don't believe that redhat's subscription model is very effective for desktop users.

Re:The reason is very simple (3, Interesting)

ObsessiveMathsFreak (773371) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077993)

And still, if you look at Fedora Core 5 as a desktop OS which is what its trying to be it's incomplete, buggy, is missing lots of default multimedia packages, the appplication are still way too fragmented.

Fedora is not trying to be a desktop OS. If it was, flash, java and mp3 would ship out of the box.

Fedora is trying to be... something. I'll have to say that it makes a great distro for a home server. And it's got a pretty wide range of software for the intrepid.

My opinion is that Fedora is a workstation distro.

Talk about a slanted summary (5, Informative)

youknowmewell (754551) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077510)

Here is the link to the email Redhat sent out. https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-li st/2006-April/msg00016.html [redhat.com]

To say that the article writer has a bias against Redhat would be an understatement. Even when Redhat is transparent they are still lambasted. People want to hate Redhat, but without Redhat we would be much worse off in the Linux world. It's time people admit it.

Re:Talk about a slanted summary (1)

dvNull (235982) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077693)

While RedHat is not an evil company by any means, they are similar to Microsoft in one way. Many Linux users hate them.

I for one, dont see any reason to. They have supported a lot of projects and put a lot of effort into Fedora which is a great distro IMO.

Re:Talk about a slanted summary (3, Informative)

Ryan Amos (16972) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077827)

So true. RedHat is probably the best mix available of "hackable open source" mixed with "corporate oversight." There *has* to be a company with investors who have something to lose for most corporate boards to trust a piece of software. This means that the community loses control. There have to be viable support options that will be there 5 or 10 years from now and companies just don't get those assurances with community-based efforts.

It really is all about the support. RedHat is not that evil really, they contribute a lot of code to various open source projects. I think most peoples' beef with them is that they don't distribute a binary version of RHEL for free (source RPMs are of course available,) but you know what, the GPL says they don't have to. Get CentOS if you just want the OS, or get RedHat if you want the support. Or, if you just don't like RedHat as a distro, don't use it. Just don't expect a lot of proprietary stuff to support your distro (again with the support!)

Reading the letter (2, Interesting)

augustz (18082) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077526)

It appears to make very good sense. Redhat supports a community distribution almost as well as many other players. I didn't like how little community involvement there was initially (especially without extras to start) but it's coming along, albeit a bit slowly.

And bottom line, redhat has so far played well with the community.

When redhat dropped the desktop market (0, Troll)

codepunk (167897) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077548)

When they dropped the desktop marked they already signed their death wish. Everybody I know is running umbuntu and for the servers that own redhat enterprise is going to be removed and loaded with umbuntu. It doesn't take long to despise RPM files after running APT.

Re:When redhat dropped the desktop market (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077701)

Apt with all your internal computers set up to only pull packages from your server is a really nice thing for updates and such. Only place new packages in your own repository after you've tested them, and then all your computers update themselves with only packages you've allowed them to.

Re:When redhat dropped the desktop market (1, Interesting)

Erwos (553607) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077741)

Ubuntu is the distro of the week, nothing more. I remember that, a bare two years ago, everyone and their dog was ditching Red Hat for Gentoo. Let's face it: no one talks about Gentoo in the enterprise anymore as the Next Big Thing (tm). While it's sad that some sys-admins are adherents to "distro of the week" fever, Red Hat's recent press release that 99 out of 100 of their biggest contracts stayed on is revealing as to what serious sysadmins are doing.

RHEL has some genuine advantages over most other distros, such as RHN's administration capabilities and guaranteed five-year support. Besides that, the Red Hat brand-name is invaluable, because people know them. They also have tons and tons of money in the bank, so they're far more reliable than Canonical.

In other words, for a company that signed its own death wish, they've been doing quite well lately, and have managed to outlast and survive their competitors. Maybe Ubuntu will be a serious competitor in the future, but they aren't right now.

-Erwos

Re:When redhat dropped the desktop market (1, Informative)

muszek (882567) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077855)

Ubuntu is the distro of the week

Man, that's got to be the longest week ever. I remember reading the same thing 50 weeks ago, when I was making the switch from Fedora to Ubuntu.

Re:When redhat dropped the desktop market (1)

Serpent Mage (95312) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077908)

*waves hand in jedi fashion*

This is not the distro you are looking for.

Re:When redhat dropped the desktop market (3, Informative)

IANAAC (692242) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077767)

... and for the servers that own redhat enterprise is going to be removed and loaded with umbuntu.

You must not know many people who actually work in corporate environments then. Most third party apps, such as Oracle, are only certified to run on RHEL or SUSE Enterprise. No other distrobution is certified. I can tell you first hand that if you're running Oracle on an unsupported platform, you will get ZERO support from them.

Really.

Try and sell that to your management.

Re:When redhat dropped the desktop market (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077786)

Everybody I know is running umbuntu and for the servers that own redhat enterprise is going to be removed and loaded with umbuntu.


Everybody? Who, you and the kids next door? I work for a fairly large organization and we migrated from Solaris to Redhat AS and Suse Enterprise. It's called "contract support". Data centers (and not some obscure web hosting company) require real support. Before we'd go for a disto like Ubuntu or even Debian we'd go back to Solaris.

It doesn't take long to despise RPM files after running APT.


RPM has come a long way, and I've seen APT screw things up royally as well.

Why is it so many people from the Debian side of the house gets their knickers in a knot about RPM based distros? I think it's penis envy.

Re:When redhat dropped the desktop market (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077831)

That doesn't make sense. That's like saying, "it doesn't take long to despise *.deb files after running yum." It also doesn't make sense to use terms like "despise" in the context of discussing the technical merits of something, but this is Slashdot after all.

Re:When redhat dropped the desktop market (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077832)

Um-buntu - Linux for hesitant people

MOD PARENT UP!! (1)

Slithe (894946) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077866)

I thought this was quite funny. At least, it does not deserve a 0.

Redhat Abondons me? (-1, Troll)

drewzhrodague (606182) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077592)

I have been a big redhat fan ever since 4.2. A fried turned me on to it. "Look," he said, "you can just download it, and it works!" I was psyched. And this has pretty much been my career over the last 10 years -- download Redhat, install it, and it works. It has always worked, and been a reliable brand in operating systems.

I was okay when they split off Fedora from their Enterprise package. I went with Fedora, seemed to work okay. I wanted to try out FC5 when it came out a few weeks ago, on my recent purchase of an old Dell C640. Oddly enough, It wouldn't get past the lilo prompt on any CD I burned. So, I tried out CENTOS [centos.org] .

CENTOS seems to be just like Redhat's flavored GNU/Linux. It has everything I want, except for PINE and windowmaker. It makes an okay workstation, and I am already used to the file locations, package management, and general 'feel' for the environment.

Now that Redhat is abandoning Fedora, there's no reason I should use it anymore. Kudos to the CENTOS crew, you've made a convert.

Re:Redhat Abondons me? (2, Informative)

Russ Steffen (263) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077753)

This has nothing whatsoever to do with Fedora Core the distribution, this is about the Fedora Foundation, a non-profit corporation Red Hat setup for various reasons. It proved unwieldy and not worth the hassle so they shut it down.

This does not affect Fedora Core, you and other Fedora Core users have not been abandoned.

Re:Redhat Abondons me? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077862)

I hope you understand that CentOS is RHEL with the Red Hat (or "prominent North American Enterprise Linux vendor" as they have to say) branding marks removed.

RedHat / Fedora Are Not Dead (5, Insightful)

Doug Dante (22218) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077619)

IMHO, the problem is that RedHat wanted to see some significant outside sponsorship for Fedora, say from IBM, or perhaps Mark Shuttleworth (Ubuntu), but they didn't get it.

If they aren't getting the benefit of that sponsorship by giving up control, then why give up that control? It's useful to keep Fedora in sync with their commercial product.

Besides, don't kid yourself, if I need a piece of software, more likely than not, it's been tested on Fedora, if not already packaged and included, and it was probably originally written on or ported to Fedora, so that's what makes it a great distro. I've used them all, and I like Fedora Core 5, and it's not terribly broken as others have claimed. (although I've seen one bug in the login screen).

There's nothing wrong with this. For efficiency, we're going to see more code shared between distributions, and possibly testing, etc. However, it looks like RedHat's hopes of becoming the absolutely dominant distribution by embracing and extending Ubuntu (which is part of Debian), or by aligning itself with IBM, have been put on hold for now.

However, the major distributions are more like one another than they ever have been (compare SuSE and RedHat now with SuSE 6.0 and RedHat 7.0), and they will continue to share more and more code, but it looks like the market for Linux based OSes is large enough that there is enough room to that total consolidation will not happen.

Re:RedHat / Fedora Are Not Dead (1)

Catskul (323619) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077947)

Why would Mark Shuttleworth sponsor RedHat when he has Ubuntu to worry about? IMO the *biggest* problem with the OSS community is *lack* of focus... not too much focus.

Moralistic Dogma (4, Insightful)

rtobyr (846578) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077671)

I think that a lot of people assume that Red Hat Linux is this big ticket open source project, and therefore, Red Hat the company is bound to some subjective and abstruse ethical code. The GPL is not a manual of moral guidelines for running a business. Frankly a applaud Red Hat and all the other vendors of open source software that have implemented a successful business model around something that is free. For Linux to survive and grow, money has to come from somewhere. So when people in the know have to make the tough decisions, we shouldn't be so quick to criticize them for it.

its ok it was a shitty distro anyway (0, Flamebait)

observer7 (753034) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077712)

the quality had gone down hill since fedora core 3 . the community of debian and all her off spring will fill the void . i think Linux needs to exist in different forms . They were getting overambitious with the project .

Fedora - new improved curry flavor! (0, Flamebait)

slashpot (11017) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077731)

They use RHEL at work - I found a samba bug that had been patched in 3.0.21c we need patched on our servers. Management wouldn't let anything in that didn't come down from RHN.

Went to RHN and opened many many cases over the next month - trying to get one of the incompetent indian fucks to let engineering know that their 3.0.9 samba version they still have deployed now needed patched to fix this bug that was causing crashes on all of our rhel 3 servers.

It took a month - and multiple opened cases - before one of the indians assigned a ticket actually read what was in it and passed it to the engineering team to fix. All the other idiots just pasted cut and paste repsonses that had nothing to do with the problem I was pointing out - and handing them a patch for.

Finally - I got a patch samba version from them. Attached to the case. Still haven't seen it come down the subscribed update channels - so no one else is getting it.

I don't see the problem with FC (-1, Offtopic)

crossmr (957846) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077738)

I'm reading this on FC4, on a laptop provided by my school as part of my program. Originally it came with Dos, Windows Xp, and a bad install of RH9. I'd never spent much time on Linux prior to this, other than a weekend I fired up a knoppix CD a couple years ago, however in november I took the plunge and started using Linux exclusively. First thing I did was remove RH9 and install FC4. I had a book that had FC2 in it, but had some issues with it, so I downloaded and got FC4. I made sure that I could do all I needed to do for school in it and over the xmas holiday I removed the windows partition and migrated linux to the larger partition. School ends in 3 weeks and I'll be ghosting my partition and repartition this machine because the partition scheme is pretty much crap right now.

As a complete novice to begin with. I broke lots of stuff. Once I removed windows, I took to keeping a "backup" copy of my installation. If I destroyed something on a lunch break and couldn't use linux any more, I booted to the other partition and copied it back over top. Now that I've learned, generally speaking, how to avoid causing meltdowns, I don't have that problem and I only have the single copy.

Since I learned to stop breaking stuff, I haven't had a single issue with system stability or usability. Sure I often need to install a few things for dependencies, but I've discovered the joy of yum localinstall and I cuddle with fedoraforum and linuxquestions at night.

I'm using gnome, though I also have xfce installed. I introduced a classmate to it because he wanted to learn more linux as well. Everytime I see him, he's running it. I've found or solved answer to most of our critical issues that would prevent us from using linux, and a number of my classmates have started taking the plunge. Not all are using it exclusively or are using FC4, but some are. They're really sampling though. I have classmates running gentoo, ubuntu, debian, and FC4. I think some people chose to take an already used distribution simply so they'd have someone else running it who's done it before so they can ask questions.

But for those of us using FC4, maybe we're missing something, because we all thoroughly enjoy it. I'm going to be putting either FC4 or FC5 as a dual boot on my home system. The sooner the better because I need to set up a server to handle the image of the partition I'm making so that I can get this laptop working a bit better.

What is the problem? (1)

gentlemen_loser (817960) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077752)

I see no issue with Redhat doing this. If the Fedora guys are really unhappy about it, I think they should just take their ball and go home (figurativly). The beauty of Linux is the fork()

re (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077762)

bump

This will actually be good for Redhat & Linux (4, Insightful)

agristin (750854) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077773)

This is a good thing, for Redhat and what is good for Redhat is generally good for linux. Redhat pays many kernel developers and contributes huge amounts of opensource code- enterprise class opensource code.

Since Fedora Core is basically RHEL testing or unstable ( to try to fit the Debian nomenclature, I guess rawhide is unstable, FC is testing, RHEL is stable ), Redhat needs to be able to control where Fedora Core is going and what goes in. Partly to maintain quality control, partly to make sure Fedora goals incorporate the Redhat goals, partly for their legal department to not freak out.

Until another linux company becomes as central to linux in business as Redhat, what is good for Redhat is good for linux.

I think this will have limited impact for people who use Fedora Core as a home desktop (or even business). Probably none they will notice.

For those that use other distributions, this will have almost no impact, because the things they use in their distributions that Redhat contributes will still be high quality and GPL.

No problems here! (4, Insightful)

scarolan (644274) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077914)

We use Fedora extensively in my workplace, and I'm frankly glad that Red Hat is keeping the Fedora project under it's wing rather than spinning it off as a separate non-profit.

Having worked with several non-profits over the years, I can say from experience that a for-profit company will probably be more accountable and responsible, and better at "getting the job done".

We like being the "testing" arm of Red Hat. We get a free, open-source operating system, and Red Hat gets our bug fix submissions and feedback. It's a nice relationship. We also like that some of Red Hat's profits pay for developers to maintain different parts of our operating system. The end result is a very slick, easy to use, and easy to configure, multi-purpose operating system.

I am not so sure that a separate Fedora foundation would do as good a job as Red Hat is doing. Free software zealots will probably disagree, but guess what folks - it takes money and manpower to get things done. There's nothing wrong with a company making a healthy profit, and using some of that profit to give back to the community.

Fedora isn't that Bad (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15077939)

I hae found this love affair with Debian to be a bit of a wonder, as it was one of the worst things I've ever done when loading it on my new AMD64 platfrom. A switch to Fedora x86-64 saved the machine as a 64 bit platform. Some good things can be attributed to Debian but support of new platforms isn't one of its strengths.

As for Fedora, I keep coming back to it on my main platform. That is something considering I have spent considerable time with other distros. My experience with Debian on x86-64 was so bad that I don't see my self using that distro again anytime soon. At the time Ubuntu was crap also. The thing is that Fedora is bleeding edge enough to have interesting technology incorporated yet reasonable effort is put into it to keeping it stable. There are not many community distros that have as many new features working well together.

Now some complain about bloat, which could be an issue on old hardware, but really guys this is the age of dual core and more technology. I don't see it so much as bloat as offering functionality. Fnctionality by the way which you have control over. It is not like OS/X or XP where your control is minimal at best. One also has to realize that Fedora is a platform for experimentation with functionality, no one has ever implied that Fedora was being built to be rock stable or completely free of hassles. It is certainly the platform for people with a little gray matter between their ears.

Things like Ubuntu are interesting but really provide little over getting XP or OS/X. Frankly I wonder what the sense in installing Ubuntu really is, what advantage does it have over XP, when all the good points of Linux have been shingled over in an attempt to make it more like conventional OS'es. Has the Linux community become so weak of mind that they can't obtain traction in anything that is slightly differrent than XP?

Dave

Should they have thought of this before? (4, Informative)

bogie (31020) | more than 8 years ago | (#15077970)

First of all, I just wanted to say that considering what Red Hat has done for the community for over 10 years now I think people give them way too much shit. 99% of the comments knocking Red Hat are rants by idiots who have no idea how much Red Hat does. But in this case I have to ask what the hell they were thinking?

"Incorporating as a non-profit foundation creates immense accounting challenges, and a truly independent Fedora Foundation would be forced to track the cost of bandwidth for distributing Fedora and every single hour of Red Hat developer time used to improve Fedora as well as the legal and administrative expenses associated with perpetuating the project and running the Foundation."

They are just realizing this now?

"In order to maintain non-profit status, a third of the Fedora Foundation's money would have to come directly from public sources. At present, Spevack argues, this just isn't feasible."

They are just realizing this now?

"Giving up" control of Fedora and then taking it back for the reasons listed just smacks of poor planning. Many people have argued "why should I help out Fedora why Red Hat just "takes" those changes and sells them in RHEL". I've always thought that was a retarded baseless argument. But on the other hand plenty of people seem to make that complaint. I don't think Red Hat is going to make many friends in the community by pulling Fedora even closer. I hope they are prepared to deal with the fallout and possible defection of contributors.
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