The End of Naked PCs in China? 221
fishter writes "The Chinese Government is calling on PC manufacturers to ensure that a properly licensed operating system is installed on their products before they leave the factory. One manufacturer has already signed a deal with Microsoft to install its operating systems on all its personal PC products. The edict would also apply to foreign manufacturers supplying PCs to Chinese companies and residents."
John Maddog Hall (Score:1, Offtopic)
John Maddog Hall-Priorities (Score:1, Insightful)
Of course being able to chose one's OS is sooo much more important than being able to chose one's government. Glad you all have your priorities straight.
Re:John Maddog Hall-Priorities (Score:2, Insightful)
Can one person really choose their government? No, it takes the whole voting population (or at least, the part of the voting population that actually votes). Can one person choose their own OS? Yes.
Re:John Maddog Hall-Priorities (Score:2)
Unless you're proposing they negotiate a compromise wherein they will gain a choice in governement elections in return for losing a choice of pre-installed OS, then I'll venture to say your response is beside the point. Or did you intend it to be humorous?
Re:John Maddog Hall (Score:5, Insightful)
Because U.S. law doesn't govern China is the most fundamental reason why this is not a violation.
Re:John Maddog Hall (Score:3, Insightful)
I've been reading about this on other sites this morning. Factories were sending out pirated copies of Windows with PC's. I'm not sure how that falls under anti-trust even tho it's a US act and you're comparing it to China. This is all about pirated software crackdowns in China. Somehow this story has twisted it around to
Re:John Maddog Hall (Score:2)
The Physical Install (Score:5, Insightful)
That's right, simply burn 17MB CDLinux ISO (with Chinese language [berlios.de] support) to a CD and "install" the disc into the CD-ROM drive. When the computer boots up, it will have a properly licensed [gnu.org] operating system running. Should the consumer choose to install some other operating system *cough* *cough* they won't even need to format the hard drive or write over the partition tables!
Seriously, I think this is just a laughable edict that the Chinese Government has done to bolster trade with United States software firms. The factories in China are just going to distribute Linux or some other free operating system and even have instructions on how to install windows over it. The government knows this also and that's why it's happy to comply with something the US companies are asking it to do
Who knows, if the manufacturers use a nice enough version of Linux, they might cause quite a few people to convert?
Re:The Physical Install (Score:5, Funny)
Their government doesn't take too kindly to wise-asses getting around the intent of the law. Enjoy your gulag!
Re:The Physical Install (Score:5, Interesting)
The intent of the law is that Hu Jintao won't feel embarrassed when he has dinner at Gates' mansion next week. Once he's finished his jaunt, no one will care what you do any more. Also China does have its own officially sanctioned OS, Red Flag [redflag-linux.com] which all true Party members should use.
Re:The Physical Install (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:The Physical Install (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly. And now that we know how to do "live" CD OSs, this could easily become the norm in some parts of the world. The PC vendor has a rack of such CDs, asks you which OS you want, and slips the appropriate CD into the drive. You take the PC home, fire it up, and that OS boots with a screen asking if you'd like to install on the disk (so you can pull the CD out and insert a pirated music CD
This does bring up an interesting question, though. That CD is in fact an add-on, which is a small but nonzero extra price. It's more subtle than the blatant "Microsoft tax" of the pre-installed Windows forced on customers that want linux or FreeBSD or whatever.
The general question is: Suppose I'm a poor person in some poor, remote place, and I'm looking for a cheap but usable computer. What are my options? How exactly can I minimize the price? How can I avoid these extra charges for little things that I don't want?
The question might be simple, but the answer is probably a large FAQ or maybe even a major web site, because of all the forces (like this MS-friendly "anti-piracy" decree) that want to add their favorite thing to my computer and collect their couple of yuan from me. Why should I pay the hidden tax of this "free" OS CD when I have one sitting on my desk at home?
One source of this question is the growing population of people running local "internet cafe" sites. It's not just hardware; there's also the question of dealing with internet providers, and cutting through their attempts to maximise income by imposing lots of mandatory "options".
Suppose I'm a small-time internet site in some remote location. What leverage do I have to persuade the local internet suppliers to just give me a connection with a specific bandwidth, and nothing else? Yes, I intend to run my own email server; I don't want to pay for your "smart server" service. Yes, I intend to register my own domain and run my own DNS server; I don't want to pay for yours. No, I don't need a web host; I know how to run my own. I just want IP connectivity with N bits/sec, thank you very much. And so on.
Is this info collected somewhere? Should I set up a site to collect it?
(If so, I can see it taking a lot of disk space, so despite the fact that I live in a suburb of Boston, I just might be interested in the answers myself.
Re:The Physical Install (Score:3, Insightful)
Anyhow, I suggest burning a usable programming system into the BIOS, thus eliminating the need for a CD. Hell, with broadband, who needs hardrives? Just mount S3 or (free) GMail.
Re:The Physical Install (Score:2)
Re:The Physical Install (Score:2)
Re:The Physical Install (Score:2)
Re:The Physical Install (Score:2)
Face it, Communism is the default. Not because it is forced on us (well partly becasue it WAS forced on us) but because it is the standard for governments.
Re:The Physical Install (Score:2)
I for one would hate to live in an "ideal" communist society. Even the broken corrupt incarnations of Communism that have been established so far would be preferable to me. Communism is for whiners and losers.
Re:The Physical Install (Score:2)
Yeah, and don't forget the hippies!
Oh, wait...
Doesn't mean it has to be Windows (Score:5, Interesting)
I hate the way this whole 'naked PC' thing is painted as purely a piracy issue. We just bought 10 Workstations from HP that come with WinXP Pro and no way to buy them without despite the fact that they are intended as Linux machines and HP advertises them as fully Linux compatible.
Re:Doesn't mean it has to be Windows (Score:5, Funny)
You actually bought the machines purely for the Windows didn't you? You love Microsoft, and you love Windows, it's best to confess, you don't want something to.. you know... happen to your home machine's Automatic Updates, now do you?
- B.G.
But it does... (Score:5, Insightful)
I remember hearing once that McDonald's marketing goal was to make your dinner decision be the question: "McDonalds: yes/no?" as opposed to "McDonalds / Burger King / Taco Bell /
So what Microsoft is trying for here is to convince everyone that the only alternatives are 'piracy' and 'purchasing Windows'. By denying that other choices even exist they push them down in the mindset of the audience, (conversely by adding say Linux in the mix, they legitimize it)
It's the old "Are you still drowning kittens?" question, either 'yes' or 'no' paints you as a monster, when in reality you've never done any such thing.
Formulating questions and answers that go together is what marketing is...
Re:But it does... (Score:2)
Speak for yourself. My favorite hobby happens to be drowning kittens, followed closely by kicking puppies and stealing candy from babies!
Seriously though, is it any surprise that a Communist government is going to be effectively enforcing a monopoly? I'm sure that the PC distributors in question are State-owned, and as such by charging more by bundling Windo
Re:But it does... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:But it does... (Score:2)
is that the one?
Re:But it does... (Score:2)
If *you* are in the radio-active box instead of the cat, *you* know if you're dead or alive. It doesn't matter what anyone outside the box thinks.
Why should it be any different with the cat?
Re:But it does... (Score:2)
If *you are in the box, you "really" exist in the same wave-superimposition state as the cat. But that state's effect on you is different from its effect on others.
Re:But it does... (Score:2)
Re:But it does... (Score:2)
But how will Microsoft respond? (Score:2)
The question becomes the wording of the contracts with Microsoft. Is exclusivity a prerequisite for getting an OEM discount? Selling blank machines is probably allowable regardless of the nature of the contract, but selling a competitor's product is another matter altogether.
Re:So what's the point then? (Score:4, Insightful)
That IS the reason. Same reason Hu is buying a fleet of Boeings. They've got a huge pile of US dollars and have to spend it somehow, and handing it over to high-profile US companies helps to keep the US trade protectionists off their back.
Re:So what's the point then? (Score:2)
If it gets Bill Gates lobbying for you, it is.
Red Flag Linux (Score:5, Insightful)
Some could even see this as an attempt by the Chinese government to increase Red Flag usage over pirated (American) Windows.
Free Software? (Score:2)
I'd like to know what it really requires. Suppose my free software distribution does not have serial numbers for "accounting"? It would not be surprising for a country that throws people into jail for visiting the wrong web site to then force one rooted distro or another on everyone. Red tape is mostly about ending freedom.
Re:Free Software? (Score:2)
as if this will have any effect on chinese piracy (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:as if this will have any effect on chinese pira (Score:4, Funny)
Geez, you would think that having the dvd presses in China and paying the workers peanuts would amount to a very tight supply chain.
Episode III: Backstroke of the West! (Score:2)
Re:Episode III: Backstroke of the West! (Score:2)
Re:as if this will have any effect on chinese pira (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:as if this will have any effect on chinese pira (Score:2)
And if you paid $USD 5, you got ripped off.
And it's the same in China as well.
When the average person's wage is as low as it is there, the cost of legitmate software is so unrealistic that nobody will pay it. Micros
Re:as if this will have any effect on chinese pira (Score:3, Funny)
After she left, I walked over and asked (in Thai) for the price of the same thing and he started at half what she had paid after bargaining... I didn't buy it either.
Re:as if this will have any effect on chinese pira (Score:3, Insightful)
There is no piracy in China (since there is no copyright*).
This is just legal business.
*not the same copyright laws and no convention etc. I don't know the details.
Re:as if this will have any effect on chinese pira (Score:2)
Unless the state decrees so. There are strict protections for state-sanctioned business.
Re:as if this will have any effect on chinese pira (Score:2)
The vast majority of piracy isn't prosecuted, but that's true in the United States as well.
as if this will have any effect on any piracy (Score:2)
getting a pirated software, games, music or movies on nicely mass-produced cds/dvds with a nice printed cover is very easy.
police is caring only about businesses (and then mostly is used as inter-business weapon). i would estimate that software piracy rate among individuals is something close to 98-99% (maybe more if you count all sharewares that are run forever).
nobody bothers them. actually, you could just check "ok, this house has a computer ? let's get an order, there's close t
Re:as if this will have any effect on chinese pira (Score:2, Funny)
what justification? (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm asking because I don't think there is one. And if there's not one, then this plan of attack is succeeding for other reasons. My guesses are:
1) Joe User doesn't know/care what's going on
10) China isn't a democracy (to put it plainly)
11) Microsoft can bully OEM's
Am I right? Are any of these ever going to change?
Re:China vs United States (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:China vs United States (Score:2)
http://images.google.com/images?q=disney%20pluto&i e=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla: en-US:official&percentage_served=100&sa=N&tab=wi [google.com]
http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr= &client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aoffici al&q=george+bush&btnG=Search [google.com]
What constitutes a "computer?" (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:It's pretty simple (Score:2)
If there's no operating system installed, you can't just plug it in, turn it on and use it. So it's just computer parts. Yet this is exactly the thing that they're supposed to be stopping people from selling.
Why not if it is free! (Score:2)
If it is not, everyone should be able to claim money back from that license! (This one is an old battle)
Of the two I'd prefer the first one, because 80% of the people would like to be able to turn on the PC and start using it without any further delay.
The issues come only for the remaining 20% people that would like to install a different OS, not necessairly by a different manufacturer!
In any case my own dictionary call this as "freedom const
Re:Why not if it is free! (Score:2)
Of the two I'd prefer the first one, because 80% of the people would like to be able to turn on the PC and start using it without any further delay.
And how is a law forcing computers to be sold this way the answer? If most users really did just want to "turn on the PC and start using it", this is already an option for OEMs without requiring a law. OEMs could simply provide a choice, "OS or no OS preinstalled" ... the free market is far far better than using laws to force something, in fact, almost by defi
What about the Dragon//goodson processor? (Score:1)
Obscene PCs (Score:2, Funny)
Nakedness is evil, it is unnatural and the work of the devil.
Hasn't Church taught you anything?
DOS rulez (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:DOS rulez (Score:2)
remember that MS didn't have all the fancy holograms or serial number tracking systems back in the dos days so its presumablly easy to make convincing pitate copies
Re:DOS rulez (Score:2)
Yes they did. I've got a retail version of DOS 6, it's got holograms, authenticity certificates, etc. Though the fakes in China are very good, and it may well be that there is no way to confirm the serial numbers at this date.
What next? (Score:3, Interesting)
Yeah, I get the point, and I can see how this 'should' help MS and others fight piracy... one day, these people will wake up and see that pirates simply don't care and are going to use illegal copies of things anyway. This is why F/OSS has a strong advantage over MS
Re:What next? (Score:2)
When was the last time you saw a new car for sale without tires? And in the US I am pretty sure that they do have to be DOT approved. I am sure most countries have some approval process for tires as well.
Where is the -1 for false analogy?
Will they let MS spy on them (Score:3, Interesting)
Its probably nothing. (Score:5, Insightful)
At the end of TFA is the statement
Something tells me this is one of those Chinese Government edicts that will be largely ignored once Mr. Bush leaves China.
The Chinese President is certainly not in the mood to discuss Microsoft's Intellectual Property Rights when there are more pressing matters to be discussed with the US President. He'll just point to the edict and politely say that the Chinese Government is already taking steps to address problems of piracy. Then he'll quickly change to another topic as soon as he is able.
Hu Jintao visiting US (Score:2)
Something tells me this is one of those Chinese Government edicts that will be largely ignored once Mr. Bush leaves China.
Hu Jintao is coming here [iht.com]. Addressing software sharing is one of the few visible things he can do that will cost him nothing. Currency revaluation is what he is desperate to avoid. Why the US sees fit to give this guy a victory lap I'll never know.
Re:Hu Jintao visiting US (Score:2)
MS shooting feet (Score:5, Insightful)
However, quite a few people will probably keep the default OS out of laziness, if nothing else, so Windows will loose market share. Until now, there are a fair number of Chinese internet sites (and software) that only work with Windows, but if enough people will use the default Linux system, those sites will have to adapt. This will make it even less attractive to install pirate Windows.
So, how will this hurt MS? They don't get any money worth talking about from the Chinese market today. Their problem is that if a large portion of the Chinese start using Linux, international web sites that sell to the Chinese, will also have to adapt to Linux. And that means that Linux will be a more viable alternative for the international public too.
This may be wishful thinking, but I think there is a fair chance that this scenario will take place.
Re:MS shooting feet (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:MS shooting feet (Score:2)
It think this is why MS is pushing virtualization. IF MS Windows cannot be the OS of choice, it can at least be the OS that is run on servers that run the OS of choice.
Re:MS shooting feet (Score:2)
If they installed a working, full featured Linux distro this would be true. Past experience shows that whenever Linux gets preinstalled in the U.S. it's some stripped-down useless distro like Thizlinux, [thizlinux.com] Linspire [linspire.com] or FreeDos. [freedos.org]
I'm not sure who the marketing geniuses are that pick ThizLinux over Fedora, Debian, Mandrake, Mepis, Ubuntu, etc.....but it seems fairly consistent.
What about PC's that don't come from a factory? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:What about PC's that don't come from a factory? (Score:2)
How Dell does it (Score:5, Informative)
That's a legal operating system. It comes with a CD of FreeDos and a printed copy of the GPL.
Re:How Dell does it (Score:2)
Re:How Dell does it (Score:4, Insightful)
FreeDOS will work with BIOS update disks. It's also considerably simpler to support.
Re:How Dell doesn't do it (Score:3, Funny)
Well, yes, it is easier to support a product that doesn't do anything.
Re:How Dell does it (Score:2)
Seeing as, by modern standards, FreeDOS does absolutely nothing, it's a doddle to support. It's probably an awful lot easier to get decent pricing from Microsoft when you're shipping boxes with an alternative OS which isn't linux. The boxes are sold in the full knowledge that there is no way they'll be running FreeDOS within 10 minutes of being first switched on.
On the other hand, shipping something like Ubuntu would require rather more suppo
Re:How Dell does it (Score:2)
Most of the other Free OSes either compete with the product they're selling, or aren't ready for mass use yet (sorry Syllable).
Re:How Dell does it (Score:2)
IBM/Lenovo? (Score:2, Interesting)
Arrogance (Score:2)
This mirrors comments from Microsoft, which has long criticised sales of "naked PCs" as helping pirates.
More arrogance from MS, even in the face of there being multiple perfectly good operating systems to choose from. Just because a sold PC doesn't include a purchase of their OS doesn't mean it is guaranteed to have an unlicensed copy of it installed instead.
Irony - the "People's Republic:" (Score:3, Insightful)
Imagine the officers of a Chinese computer company in a meeting where they are trying to decide on the best way to meet this edict. I am sure that it isn't much different than the meeting and decision making process here (in the United States).
****
Overview is given: Gentlemen, a new policy has come down from Bejing, we are going to be required to install an OS on all of the computers we build! This meeting is to decide what operating system we can install that will be the most profitable for our company. There are many OS'es to choose from; Microsoft has several different flavors of Windows, there is of course a number of flavors of Linux, and then we could also consider BSD or perhaps a commercial version of Unix.
Rep from MFG: Our perspective is that we would like to limit the number of options. It is expensive for us to have too many different options available in our generic boxes.
Rep from Marketing: The lion's share of computers in homes and offices have Windows installed on them. It would be much more difficult for us to sell something that does not have Windows.
Rep from Support: My people could rise to the challenge of supporting anything, they are geeks and like to learn new things but let's face it, right now they already know Windows and it's idisyncracies.
Rep from Development: Every O/S has different drivers. Some companies only offer Windows drivers. We can not find an inexpensive modem that will work with anything besides Windows. If we offer multiple O/S'es, our development costs will skyrocket!
Rep from Shipping: We have not got enough warhouse space to stock more than a couple of different options. Each different configuration requires at least one storage bay! I barely have enough room already!
Moderator: So we can all agree that we have to limit options to one or two different Operating Systems then?
Everyone: Murmurs agreement.
Moderator: Linux is free, Windows XP costs us a lot of money and Windows XP Pro costs us even more.
Marketing: I can not agree to Linux, I do not know how many boxes we can sell like that. People who have to go out and buy retail copies of Windows would need to spend a lot more! They will mentally add that cost into the cost of the computer and I am just not sure we can overcome that!!! I will not sign off on anything other than Windows, it is as simple as that!
Moderator: Anyone else have an opinion?
Everyone:
Moderator: Everyone agrees then that we will offer Windows XP?
Everyone: Quietly mumrmer agreement.
Moderator: Should we offer XP Pro as an option?
Shipping: I think I can make space for it...
Moderator: Are we all agreed that XP Pro can be an option?
Everyone: Quietly mutter agreements
Moderator: OK, that settles it then.
*****
People, you know how this works. While the scenereo I have given is pure fiction, I have been in a thousand meetings just like this and in a nutshell this is what will happen.
I see this as something that makes society much more chocolate and vanilla. Other flavors aren't as favored so things like butterscotch fail to compete for shelf space in larger stores and are eventually discontinued by the manufacturer because he can't sell them to the Walmart's of the world. In the end, we all loose because the fringe flavors are simply no longer available and all we have left to choose from are chocolate and vanilla.
This is why naked PCs are important. They provide something that you can make any flavor you want without extra expense or hassle. Most manufaturers of naked PCs already make Windows boxes too. I suspect that the "copyright issue" is way over-blown. But this way, Microsoft wins because they are now sticking their software on every box made in China! For many naked PC buyers, this just significantly increased the cost of a computer.
I'll say it again: Oh, the irony, the "People's Republic" bowing to capitalist pressure at the expense of it's people!
Re:Irony - the "People's Republic:" (Score:3, Insightful)
Marketing: I can not agree to Linux, I do not know how many boxes we can sell like that. People who have to go out and buy retail copies of Windows would need to spend a lot more! They will mentally add that cost into the cost of the computer and I am just not sure we can overcome that!!! I will not sign off on anything other than Windows, it is as simple as that!
First, sales is the one who cares more about the price of the system and what the end user will pay. Second, do you really think anyone would c
Re:Irony - the "People's Republic:" (Score:2)
While I know that there are many who may disagree with me, my opinion is that this is a rule that is there to stay. The reason that I believe this is because I suspect that the politial powers have discovered that they can charge import fees on every copy of licensed sof
This is great news for people selling software! (Score:3, Insightful)
This way, Microsoft can buy the software from us, charge slightly more for a copy of Windows to compensate, and it should prevent piracy - not to mention make my company plenty of money!
Well, if Microsoft can do it, why can't I?
Naked PCs? (Score:2)
heh heh. He said "nekkid". heh heh.
MjM
Whoa! Now there's a story of determination! (Score:2)
A reference, I'm sure, not to the Chinese per se but rather to how numerous they are (probably implying that at that time he'd settle for getting a higher percentage of customers in the paying category).
Regardless, looks like he found a way!
uh (Score:2)
Well I... (Score:2)
Oh... wait.
Properly Licensed? (Score:2)
Or is their definition of 'proper' that it has to be something where actual currency changes hands?
Licensed under the BSDL or GPL. (Score:2)
If they can't use FreeBSD or Linux, then they won't be able to use use Window
Smokescreen (Score:2)
U.S. Made China Do It (Score:2, Informative)
The nice thing about requiring a preloaded OS.. (Score:2)
Workaround (Score:2)
Re:The power of a monopoly (Score:2)
Exactly. My first thought was a Vader-esque "Impressive... most impressive..."
Re:The power of a slashdot post. (Score:2)
I'm sure the Chinese would be happy to by classified experimental aircraft from the Air Force.
Best comment of thread (Score:2)
Re:If you don't vote Libertarian It will happen he (Score:2)
Lets say there are only two candidates in the race, one Republican and one Democrat. Is it then morally acceptable to vote for one or the other, or must I leave that race blank?
Re:If you don't vote Libertarian It will happen he (Score:2)
Re:If you don't vote Libertarian It will happen he (Score:2)