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Sun Opens Modeling Tools

ScuttleMonkey posted more than 8 years ago | from the everybody-is-doing-it dept.

112

twofish writes "According to the Register, Sun is set to open source a few modeling tools, including their UML modeler, XML infrastructure and visual editing tools, and BPEL tools. The software, part of the planned Java Studio Enterprise 9.0, will made available for download as part of Sun's NetBeans Enterprise Pack." From the article: "By open sourcing its UML tools Sun is continuing its push against the rival Eclipse open source tools framework. The Eclipse Foundation has pushed UML and model-driven architectures for some time via the Eclipse Tools Project. The project encompasses an open source implementation of UML, called UML2, and a modeling framework and code-generation facility to build tools and applications that use a structured data model - called the Eclipse Modeling Framework (EMF)."

cancel ×

112 comments

EMF? (5, Funny)

nganju (821034) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115670)

EMF? You're unbelievable!

Unfair (4, Informative)

bobintetley (643462) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115720)

For the benefit of the grouchy mod that didn't find this funny, EMF were a UK band who had a chart-topping hit - "Unbelievable".

Made me laugh anyway - sorry, no mod points today.

Re:Unfair (0)

FerretFrottage (714136) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115945)

Some people are just Unbelievable...Ohh

Re:EMF? (2, Funny)

FerretFrottage (714136) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115970)

Humm, I would expect most /.er's to associate EMF with Electromagnetic {Field|Force}....you must be from digg.com ;)

Re:EMF? (1)

ToasterofDOOM (878240) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116110)

Actually it stands for electromotive force, forgive me but it's been pounded into my head preparing for the AP test for Physics

Re:EMF? (1)

FerretFrottage (714136) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116226)

you are correct, but you'll see that as you go onto (if you go into) higher engineering classes that the term becomes interchangable even if not entirely correct. This is normally because of the use of electromagnetic induction as one way to produce emf. But Maxwell and his equations did refer to it as electromotive force IIRC (my professor would be happy if you just got electric field out of all of it).

Re:EMF? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15117238)

Humm, I would expect most /.er's to associate EMF with Electromagnetic {Field|Force}....you must be from digg.com ;)
Nope. I'm from the 80's.

Re:EMF? (1)

TheNetAvenger (624455) | more than 8 years ago | (#15117894)

And yet no one went for the Enhance MetaFile format from the Windows GDI32/GDI+.

I thought people would be scared for Sun that MS might sue them or some flame at least.

LOL

What about the XML tools? (2, Interesting)

bartash (93498) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115671)

I see there are some XML tools included in this offering. I haven't been able to find out if there is a decent XML Schema editor included. I would really like to get a free XML Schema editor that is as good as XMLSpy.

Re:What about the XML tools? (0, Offtopic)

iamwoodyjones (562550) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115724)

a free XML Schema editor that is as good as XMLSpy.

phhhht....vi of course

;-)

Re:What about the XML tools? (1)

charlesnw (843045) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116608)

Um.... no. Have you ever done any XML editing? xmlspy is actually really really nice.

Re:What about the XML tools? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15118434)

Dear god, slashdotters and mods don't know a joke when even given the simley face

Um...no. Have you ever done any XML editing? xmlspy is actually really really nice.

Um...no, you have no sense of humor. It was a joke!

Fuck!

Re:What about the XML tools? (2, Informative)

peter_gzowski (465076) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116119)

Eclipse [eclipse.org] + Web Tools Platform [eclipse.org] . It contains a graphical XML Schema editor which is similar to XMLSpy's.

Re:What about the XML tools? (1)

bartash (93498) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116959)

Thanks, I tried it. Very impressive for a free tool. Not as good as XMLSpy though :-(

Re:What about the XML tools? (1)

eric2hill (33085) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116368)

The oXygen XML [oxygenxml.com] editor is as capable as XMLSpy, but costs considerably less at $180 or $230 with maintenance and is fully cross-platform.

I know it's not free, but for the price, it's an excellent tool.

Re:What about the XML tools? (1)

EvanED (569694) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116857)

I don't know what you mean by "free", but just in case you don't know, there's a free-as-in-beer version for non-commercial use. I don't know what features it's missing, but with the little that I've done I haven't encountered any.

Anyone who's doing XML work should check it out.

Re:What about the XML tools? (1)

bartash (93498) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116932)

Good point, I should have mentioned this. The XMLSpy home edition is free, as in, er, I can never get that bit right. It is great, and for many .xsd editing jobs it is all you need. But it doesn't support 'import' in its visual editor, for that you have to pay the big bucks. And that is what I want.

Bleh (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15115692)

I opened a bag of chips today but I don't see a Slashdot story about it.

UML is old hat (1)

Helen Keller (842669) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115696)

Even I can see that UML is so totally last year. It's practicall web 1.0!

UML IS USED BY FAGGOT ARCHITECT-TYPE JAVA FAGS (1)

CmdrTaco (troll) (578383) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115725)

See subject.

Does anyone really use UML? (-1)

cryfreedomlove (929828) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115726)

Isn't this just a committee solution looking for a problem?

Re:Does anyone really use UML? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15115786)

Well I've used UML on every large project I've worked on since about 1999 and its been absolutely invaluable. Obviously its not the only way of communicating design but it is
a) Understood by most systems designers
b) Under by pretty much every developer I work with
c) Specific enough to be able to communicate fairly complex designs with, generic enough that it lends itself well to things (like distributed asynchronous messaging based systems) that it wasn't designed for.
Beats the hell out of re-inventing the wheel...
As an aside twofish - nice tunes...

Re:Does anyone really use UML? (0, Flamebait)

Reverend528 (585549) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115839)

It'll be a cold day in hell before Sun releases the source code to any software that people actually use.

Re:Does anyone really use UML? (4, Informative)

greg_barton (5551) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116130)

It'll be a cold day in hell before Sun releases the source code to any software that people actually use.

You mean like source to the jdk, [java.net] j2ee, [sun.com] and [sun.com] various [sun.com] reference [sun.com] implementations? [sun.com]

Re:Does anyone really use UML? (2, Insightful)

RPoet (20693) | more than 8 years ago | (#15117817)

I believe the GP meant "release the source" as in set it free. That's different from making it available to look at but not touch and not redistribute. Mustang is certainly not free (as in free) or open source.

Re:Does anyone really use UML? (1)

CraigoFL (201165) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116144)

It'll be a cold day in hell before Sun releases the source code to any software that people actually use.

Yeah, because *nobody* is using Java [sun.com] . Brr!.

Re:Does anyone really use UML? (4, Informative)

Decaff (42676) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116234)

It'll be a cold day in hell before Sun releases the source code to any software that people actually use.

You have got to be joking. Apart from the fact that anyone can download the source code for Java, they have open sourced huge amounts. Solaris is very widely used, especially in commercial environments. NetBeans is a very widely used Java IDE, and there is, of course Open Office.

Re:Does anyone really use UML? (1)

rubycodez (864176) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115869)

UML use is quite common in the java/j2ee world, though there's like two dozen methodologies that are no better or worse. One problem with UML (that the committee is working on) is it doesn't model parallel or multithreaded processes too well, and a realistic multi-tier architecture probably needs some of that in the model. It's also funny how the disciples think, how can you possibly have a large project without UML (or java/j2ee for that matter). One good thing (or awful thing) about the large UML tools out there is that they do let non-technical people such as business analysts participate in the design process

Re:Does anyone really use UML? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15115882)

Yes. Code generation. Not the blank set/get crap, but stuff that makes db calls, handles security, etc., all of it modeled in UML, and automatically generated. Of course, the development effort is mostly writing the generator... but then the 2nd similar project is just playing with UML instead of recoding all that boring db stuff.

Is it Java? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15115739)

All I want to know is: is it Java? If it is, then it's dead to me. Listen Sun, we don't like Java, we never have, and we never will. You can take your bloated Java apps and shove them up your fat, bloated ass. Get it? You're bloated, just like the apps you develop.

Re:Is it Java? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15115791)

MOD PARENT UP!

Give it up Sun... you are fighting a losing battle

Re:Is it Java? (1)

toriver (11308) | more than 8 years ago | (#15119637)

Great! Now go back to your memory-leaking, buffer overrrun-vulnerable C++ and oh-so-modern CORBA tools.

Extensibility (1)

smitty_one_each (243267) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115760)

Very intriguing.

As a starving non-pro, my exposure to UML has been the MS Visio implementation.

Visio is a great tool, up until you'd like to do something with the UML that wasn't intended by the authors, like writing a custom report against the model. Then you get that sad "I am baked" feeling.

A robust, open tool would be welcome.

Re:Extensibility (3, Funny)

gstoddart (321705) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115799)

Then you get that sad "I am baked" feeling.

I never feel sad when I get than feeling. ;-)

Re:Extensibility (1)

Chr0nik (928538) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115845)

Yeah, that's more of a pizza and xbox feeling to me... Not sad.

Re:Extensibility (1)

mOOzilla (962027) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115989)

Use the class diagram modeller in VS 2005 or Enterprise Architect from Sparx Systems (its so cheap its practically free)

Enterprise Architect (1)

madth3 (805935) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116192)

I support the second idea. We've been using Enterprise Architect [sparxsystems.com.au] for two years and a half and we're pretty satisfied about it.
  • Affordable
  • It covers all of our UML needs (not only class diagrams)
  • Connects pretty well with Oracle or PostgreSQL
  • Powerful report generation
  • Support replicas for distributed work
  • ... more features I haven't used

Re:Extensibility (1)

IntergalacticWalrus (720648) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116551)

Ack, Visio is awful for UML.

But then again I have yet to find a really good UML modeler.

Re:Extensibility (1)

metachimp (456723) | more than 8 years ago | (#15117508)

I like Poseidon, from Gentleware. There's a free Community Edition available and it works pretty well...

Re:Extensibility (1)

dartarrow (930250) | more than 8 years ago | (#15119365)

Actually DIA [gnome.org] works well too. Its free in both sense of the word. Works as well as Visio.

Sun software tools... (-1, Flamebait)

creimer (824291) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115761)

Does it come with a free Sparc system to run these tools? Or is that extra?

Re:Sun software tools... (1)

SeeMyNuts! (955740) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116696)



Sorry, they run only on an abacus. Thankfully, UML is 2-D, because the 3-D acceleration routines cause carpal tunnel syndrome after abour four hours of modeling. In 2-D, well trained abacus operators can run at least 12 hours, covering a good work day.

Re:Sun software tools... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15117543)

"Does it come with a free Sparc system to run these tools? Or is that extra?"

Ah, a witty statement meant to slam Sun because all they sell are SPARC systems [sun.com] and their software [sun.com] and OS [sun.com] only run on SPARC systems. By your masterful analysis of TFA, you've gleaned that the software environment discussed in this article [netbeans.info] is SPARC-only because Sun has no idea how to come up with something [sun.com] that runs on anything but SPARC. Good one!

Re:Sun software tools... (1)

aphaenogaster (884935) | more than 8 years ago | (#15117906)

I just don't understand where the anymosity comes from. It's not like sun is out there doing violence to the OSS community or anything.

Re:Sun software tools... (1)

creimer (824291) | more than 8 years ago | (#15118079)

No, I was thinking more along the lines of razor blades where the handle is given away for almost nothing. Since Sun now a software company, maybe they should give the hardware away. Seems like every time I come across an older SPARC system, someone is giving them away.

UML2 (2, Informative)

notestein (445412) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115764)

Sadly there is no visual component to this. It's simply the framework. I'm still using Argo. http://argouml.tigris.org/ [tigris.org]

Re:UML2 (4, Informative)

ivar (31153) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115873)

the screenshot [sun.com] linked from the info page [sun.com] would indicate otherwise....

Re:UML2 (2, Informative)

JakusMinimus (49854) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116168)

given the title, i am pretty sure the gp was referring to UML2 http://www.eclipse.org/uml2/ [eclipse.org]

Re:UML2 (1)

niskel (805204) | more than 8 years ago | (#15118216)

Thats where GMF [eclipse.org] comes in.

Too little momentum (0)

SlowMovingTarget (550823) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115805)

The NetBeans tools may be great, but NetBeans' time has passed. Eclipse now has very strong momentum. Eclipse is the non-Microsoft market, sparked by IBM, that tool vendors can come to, play in, and profit from. I don't think Sun can recapture industry focus from Eclipse; that focus is the Eclipse Foundation's to lose.

Looking at it from the developer's standpoint; use the tools that best fit the job, when you can. But this move is about battling ecosystems. Sun ought to join in and work with Eclipse.

Re:Too little momentum (3, Insightful)

CastrTroy (595695) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115890)

Eclipse may have a lot of momentum, but I still think Netbeans is a better tool. I haven't really used either extensively, but from what I've seen, I like Netbeans a lot more. There's room for more than 1 IDE in the world, just like there's room for Gnome and KDE. Remember, MS Office has a lot of momentum too, but that doens't mean Sun should abandon star/open office.

Re:Too little momentum (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15115939)

I haven't really used either extensively

Let us know when you have, at which point you might be able to offer a useful opinion.

Re:Too little momentum (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15115931)

I like Eclipse... I really do. It's a quantum leap in Linux IDEs. Until now we've mostly had to make so with half-finished crap, or command lines and user-hostile editors.

It's just a shame that Eclipse is written in Java... and is the second fattest, most sluggish applications I've ever used. The fattest and most bloated of all is NetBeans.

I'd kill for a C or C++ IDE as good as Eclipse (and no, KDE zealots, KDevelop is a piece of crap).

Re:Too little momentum (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15116047)

It's just a shame that Eclipse is written in Java... and is the second fattest, most sluggish applications I've ever used.

I took a Java/UML class (just because I was warming my boss up to paying for classes, etc and he was into java even though he wasn't a programmer.)

Every class started out with the instructer firing up Eclipse and spending the time it took to load (3-4 minutes) reminding everyone that they needed at least X ram and Y processor to use Eclipse. After about 4 classes, I realized why the the hell would I program anything in Java if the premier IDE for it, written in java, was such a dog. I stopped going after that.

Re:Too little momentum (1)

Decaff (42676) | more than 8 years ago | (#15117566)

I realized why the the hell would I program anything in Java if the premier IDE for it, written in java, was such a dog. I stopped going after that.

Eclipse should not take that long to start up on any reasonably configured modern machine. If it takes more than 20-30 seconds, something is seriously wrong.

But there is another point - IDEs are among the most complex applications - they include plug-in tools, application servers, debuggers and so on. Such tools can be 'dogs' no matter what language they are written in, and to dismiss Java because of this is naive. Simple Java applications can be small and fast. On my laptop, the full-featured programmers editor JEdit - a pure Java app - starts up in a few seconds.

Re:Too little momentum (4, Interesting)

jekewa (751500) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115999)

NetBeans is a fine tool for getting the job done.

Eclipse is not what you may think it is. Eclipse is the community front-end for the expensive IBM WSAD environment. Most of the places I've worked that use Eclipse do so because they see it as an alternative to the WSAD tools, and they're using WebSphere as the eventual platform; which is truly irrelevant if the software is written corectly.

NetBeans is much more like it looks. Formerly it was the community front-end for Sun's expensive Forte environment, but Sun has since abandoned that for truly the community-driven IDE, backing it with every visit to the JDK download page. And it works just fine with all of the Java application/servlet environments, whether Sun released them or not.

NetBeans is also pure Java, written on Swing, while Eclipse uses its proprietary SWT, which uses native calls to get its GUI work done. You can take the same archive of NetBeans to any J2SE-enabled desktop and it'll work. Not so with Eclipse. Because of this, it's easier to adopt new releases and plug-ins in NetBeans than it is for Eclipse. Many of the third-party add-ons for Eclipse assume or require Windows, and therefore don't work on LINUX, Solaris, Mac, or any of the other envornments. Not so with NetBeans; the plug-ins are also Java, so they work everywhere NetBeans does.

I was a long-time advocate of NetBeans before Eclipse came in to dominate the workplace. Eclipse does win some robustness categories, and its rapid-development bits are a little better (auto-complete/suggest kicks over NetBeans), but both are modular and extendable, and NetBeans has usually come with the tools needed to get the job done before Eclipse has (early GUI editor, and built-in Tomcat, Ant, JUnit...).

And, yes, I do most of my development in Eclipse, but I check out each release of NetBeans, and even try to continue to evangelize it.

Try not to be one who thinks that everyone should just join the "leader" as it often stifles competition, advances, and options. Someday Eclipse will catch up and have a GUI editor, BEPL and UML GUI tools, and some of the other flexibilites that NetBeans 5.5 [netbeans.info] has now.

Re:Too little momentum (1)

SlowMovingTarget (550823) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116269)

There are many more upgrade paths from the Eclipse IDE than WSAD. But buying the for-pay IDE atop Eclipse isn't actually the point. Look at the technology underneath Eclipse: dynamic extensible plug-ins and OSGi service bundles. It is a platform where one tool can easily extend and integrate with others.

Yes, you can take the same NetBeans jar file and run the installer on Linux and Windows with equal ease. So what? I can download the correct Eclipse SDK for either of those platforms just like you'd have to download the correct Java SDK. What I get in return in a far more reponsive GUI with the native platform look and feel. NetBeans has made great strides in this department, but it hasn't caught up to Eclipse yet.

Eclipse as an open source platform (not simply an IDE) has far more vendor weight and more potential than NetBeans, as a platform, does.

Re:Too little momentum (1)

mypalmike (454265) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116529)

Eclipse is not what you may think it is. Eclipse is the community front-end for the expensive IBM WSAD environment.

I find your definition odd. Eclipse is an IDE for Java development. My team and I use it to develop server applications, JBoss services, and SWT - based GUIs. At a previous job, I worked with people who were using it as a C++ development environment. I actually had to google for "WSAD" to even know what you were even talking about.

Re:Too little momentum (1)

L7_ (645377) | more than 8 years ago | (#15118322)

You aren't getting it then. Eclipse is the framework that IBM is building thier premiere office interactivity client Lotus Notes on. It is the framework: Lotus Notes will be an Eclipse plugin exported as an executable (on every platform x,y,z that eclipse runs on) that will run as a native application.

Eclipse is more than an IDE. In fact, I am pretty sure that the IDE is just another plugin that runs inside the framework to allow you to edit java code. Eclipse is an application framework that makes developing applications (I mean complete end to end applications) much easier; and these are not WebSphere applications: they are native executables.

Re:Too little momentum (1)

EvanED (569694) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116934)

NetBeans is also pure Java, written on Swing, while Eclipse uses its proprietary SWT, which uses native calls to get its GUI work done.

This is a *good* thing, and one of the main reasons I used Eclipse instead of NetBeans for my last Java product.

First, calling SWT proprietary is disingenuous; it's still open source, no? Or am I just horribly misinformed?

If anything, it's Swing and Java itself that's proprietary.

Anyway, I'm a big fan of native widgets. It's somewhat superficial, but one of the big reasons I don't use OpenOffice when I'm booted to Windows is because it doesn't feel/look "right", and that's almost entirely due to the non-native widgets.

Re:Too little momentum (1)

Decaff (42676) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116995)

NetBeans is also pure Java, written on Swing, while Eclipse uses its proprietary SWT, which uses native calls to get its GUI work done.

So does Swing - this is how the underlying AWT API works.

Re:Too little momentum (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15117654)

Eclipse is the community front-end for the expensive IBM WSAD environment.

I suppose, but after 3 years of using Eclipse I've never even thought of buying an IBM product.

And this applies to Sun as well, I'm not sure what they're getting out of doing work for Netbeans. Companies I work for hear "Sun" and think "expensive" and I would have a hard time justifying the price to them.

Re:Too little momentum (1)

Qbertino (265505) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116344)

No.
Eclipse has enough quirks and bugs to justify having Netbeans around. Just have the Netbeans lot decide to support other languages better than Eclipse and integrate jEdit and Netbeans is on top again. I'm currently doing PHP stuff with Eclipse and while it's nice for free it certainly isn't the bar for OSS IDEs. There is plenty of room for Netbeans and I don't see the 'momentum' you're talking about taking any effect on real-world usability of eclipse. They even still don't have a devent FTP connectivity.

Netbeans the dark horse (1)

HampiRocks (769257) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116360)

Eclipse is doing another microsft: success on looks and marketing. Netbeans beats eclipse on functionality. Eclipse is nothing more than an advanced editor that provides code completion, integrated debugging and looks good. For any serious JAVA work , e.g., J2EE, J2ME work eclipse is useless. Getting code completion in JSP, and debugging J2EE apps to work is a pain in eclipse. Eclipse lacks the support for template applications that make it so easy to start the work. For all serious JAVA functionality eclipse depends on plugins. And well-supported plugins are rare. Netbeans provides tightly integrated support for J2EE and J2ME along with the option of extending the IDE using plugins.

Re:Netbeans the dark horse (1)

metachimp (456723) | more than 8 years ago | (#15117456)

Eclipse differs from NetBeans in one significant way, which is that Eclipse is not specifically a Java IDE. I'm doing development with J2EE right now, and am aware of two tools that make this pretty easy:
MyEclipse [myeclipseide.com] which costs money, and Eclipse's own WST [eclipse.org] . So yeah, trying to get plain old Eclipse and Java to work well with J2EE stuff is difficult, but the tools I just mentioned are very well supported.

I can just as easily start working in C++ with Eclipse, because it's not designed for any one language. That's very powerful.

NetBeans makes it easier to work with J2EE right out of the chute, but Eclipse is more flexible.
I've used both NetBeans and Eclipse, and most of my team uses Eclipse, I use it mostly, and a lot of that is because I like Eclipse's interface to VCS better than NB. I also don't like how NetBeans puts jars in my Tomcat directory, and alters its configuration. I don't know if it does that with other servlet containers, but it does with Tomcat.

Vehmently disagree (1)

kaffiene (38781) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116928)

I moved to Netbeans from Eclipse. Eclipse *was* the best IDE in existence, bar none. I personally find that since NB4.1, Netbeans is a better IDE - at least for the work I do. I find it much easier to work with.

The fact is that NB has a good chunk of the IDE space and has been trending up recently. It's far from out of the picture.

It's also where innovation has been happening recently - Matisse, the UML and BIPL tools. Eclipse has been positively stagnant by comparison.

Re:Too little momentum (4, Interesting)

Decaff (42676) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116936)

The NetBeans tools may be great, but NetBeans' time has passed. Eclipse now has very strong momentum.

The statistics of IDE use disagree with you. Both Eclipse and NetBeans have very strong momentum. NetBeans use has been increasing dramatically recently. The reason? NetBeans has so much included in the base system, such as J2EE development and GUI designers. With NetBeans 4, powerful refactoring facilities were added (at last!), and with NetBeans 5 there is now one of the best GUI designers (Matisse) ever released.

It is important for the future health of Java development that there should be a choice of quality IDEs. If there is just one, then it can have excessive influence. A recent example of this was Eclipse's late support for Java 1.5. Many developers held back on the use of Java 1.5 because Eclipse did not support it.

Eclipse is the most widely used Java IDE, but NetBeans (and others, such as IntelliJ) are very widely used as well.

Re:Too little momentum (1)

SlowMovingTarget (550823) | more than 8 years ago | (#15117165)

I'm not talking IDE use, I'm talking open source tools platform. While I personally prefer the Eclipse IDE to the NetBeans IDE, having actually coded for each as a platform, I can offer an opinion from experience: the Eclipse programming model makes just makes it easier to get things done. Most vendors seem to agree, which is why, with the exception of Sun, all the major Java vendors are Eclipse Foundation members [eclipse.org] (including my employer--naturally my opinions are my own).

Compare NetBeans [netbeans.org] on this footing and you'll see the difference.

Re:Too little momentum (1)

Decaff (42676) | more than 8 years ago | (#15117236)

I'm not talking IDE use, I'm talking open source tools platform. While I personally prefer the Eclipse IDE to the NetBeans IDE, having actually coded for each as a platform, I can offer an opinion from experience: the Eclipse programming model makes just makes it easier to get things done. Most vendors seem to agree, which is why, with the exception of Sun, all the major Java vendors are Eclipse Foundation members (including my employer--naturally my opinions are my own).

Compare NetBeans on this footing and you'll see the difference.


You are right - and a large part of Eclipse's success has been as a tools platform. Fortunately, NetBeans is catching up in this area, with new tools and APIs for plug-in developers.

However, I still think that what matters in the end is the user experience, not so much that of the tool developer. This is why recent versions of NetBeans have been so successful, and why its share of the Java IDE market is growing.

Re:Too little momentum (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15118796)

There are some pretty cool things created on the NetBeans RCP. The biggest advantage is that it's not hocus pocus SWT, just pure Java. That makes it easier to reuse existing code (see this excellent article on how to get started with the NetBeans Platform [ociweb.com] for an example. Oh, and here are some bigger examples [netbeans.org] .

why sun spends so much money on software (2, Insightful)

u19925 (613350) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115826)

I am quite surprised that sun is spending so much money on software while its core copetency is in hardware. they paid tons for Forte, Netbeans, Seebeyond, Staroffice and has a huge software group. Other than Java and Solaris-10, not many people pay for any of the Sun software. Oracle, IBM, Microsoft have huge enterprise customer base from where they get majority of the revenue and use this to provide free developer tools and other free goodies, but what does Sun have? I guess, a way for Sun to achieve profitability would be to get rid off all software teams except Solaris, Java and focus on their hardware business. They should at AMD for some guidance. It stuck to its core business and today it is Intel whose stock price is very low while AMD is close to historically high.

Re:why sun spends so much money on software (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15115985)

Hardware may be Sun's core competency, but it's also not where the money is: in short, Dell is eating their lunch. Hardware may be where Sun's getting most of their money now, but their ability to gain new customers there is serverely constricted. Most people these days would rather just get a bunch of cheap AMD boxes or something than shell out for the quirky big iron Sun is known for. This means Sun is boxed into this big iron high-end market. But this high end market is shrinking all the time, as the generic x86 boxes get more and more powerful and are able to take on more and more jobs once reserved for the big iron. Hardware these days is becoming a commodity, and this makes Sun's hardware position kind of untenable. Exotic and innovative hardware as is Sun's lifeblood is increasingly just viewed as a pain, since it's by definition nonstandard. But Sun can't just switch to being a generic x86 box maker, because generic x86 boxes are a commodity-- there's no money there, except in volume.

Sun's kind of between a rock and a hard place and I don't think they exactly know what they're going to do about it. They have to build a bridge to the software world to escape the crumbling hardware world where they now live; but if in doing so they lose focus on hardware then they risk alienating what hardware customers they still have left, and even if they do things right, there's no way they can possibly make the software world as lucrative as the hardware world was-- because they have to give all their software away for free to keep up with IBM and Linux! Oh right, Linux. I forgot about Linux. You bring in the whole Solaris/Linux dichonomy and things just get even thornier.

The whole thing is a mess. We can only hope Sun has some idea of how they're going to go about staying profitable, but if they do, I don't see any signs of it right now.

Re:why sun spends so much money on software (1)

SeeMyNuts! (955740) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116747)

Solaris and Java need tools to support developers, and those are compilers, IDEs, and sysadmin tools.

StarOffice/OpenOffice.org are mainly a spear in the side of Microsoft.

Their J2EE is the reference implementation others are measured by.

I'm not sure Sun has much superfluous software, outside of a couple projects here and there I haven't really figured out what they are for.

Re:why sun spends so much money on software (5, Insightful)

aphaenogaster (884935) | more than 8 years ago | (#15117943)

Actually it is sad that this is so surprising. Sun is the only company outside of Apple that I can think of that contributes so much to 'computers' in general (hardware, software, and pure research). Check this out! I was going to submit it to Slashdot, but they never listen to me. To log in just click log in no username or password. https://sgddemo.sun.com/sgd/ [sun.com] For information on what you are doing go here... view this http://webcast-east.sun.com/ramgen/archives/VIP-21 85/VIP-2185_01_300.rm [sun.com] or read this http://www.sun.com/software/sdis/ [sun.com]

Re:why sun spends so much money on software (1)

Decker-Mage (782424) | more than 8 years ago | (#15119436)

Color me impressed! While I wouldn't touch a SunRay with a ten foot pole, this is actually pretty cool and beats the stuffing out of any prior implementation I've run into before that uses Java.

As for the company, well they got the stuffing beat out of them but I feel that they are knocking the dust off their pants and and getting back into the game (same with HP in the server market, IMNSHO). The new hardware is very nice and back on my short list which it hasn't been for a looooong time and while you won't get me near Java, period, Solaris 10 is sweet. Glad to see them back.

Sun spends so much money on wrong software (1)

master_p (608214) | more than 8 years ago | (#15119599)

After all these years, Sun still does not have a programming language that includes function composition, tail call optimization, type deduction, referential transparency, logical types, operator overloading & specification, compile-time/meta programming etc.

Visual Editor (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15115861)

Let's not forget the Visual Editor!

http://www.eclipse.org/vep [eclipse.org]

Way better than NetBeans Editor

Re:Visual Editor (1)

Decaff (42676) | more than 8 years ago | (#15117253)

Way better than NetBeans Editor

No, it really isn't. NetBeans Matisse GUI editor is recognised as being one of the best ever developed.

UML, model-driven architectures? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15115893)

Is anyone seriously using this stuff to do real projects? I guess the real question is: Are they successful?

Mostly wasted time if you ask me. On a complex project it just adds complexity. But I guess if you're using Java then you already have issues with your design.

Re:UML, model-driven architectures? (1, Interesting)

planetoid (719535) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116122)

I was always under the impression that UML's biggest purpose is not the design of a project, but rather so programmers can more easily communicate concepts of a project's architecture to the dummies at the same company who don't know anything about programming or design. Marketers, for example.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've certainly had no need to use UML in any of my projects.

Re:UML, model-driven architectures? (2, Informative)

hguorbray (967940) | more than 8 years ago | (#15117093)

Ding Ding - Wrong, but thanks for playing!

Unified Modelling language is used by Analysts, Architects and QA to ensure that an application will support the user or business processes that are required for the organization. It is best if it is used from the Requirements gathering stage onwards.

Use Cases are used to determine Actors (Objects) and Actions (methods) and to identify business rules and requrements which may need to be enforced programmatically. The use cases will result in specifications, which go to the developers, and Diagrams, which can be shown to the users and stakeholders to illustrate exactly what the system being designed will do.

If your software development efforts have NOT been user-facing, or have not needed to fulfill some business or operational function you may not have been exposed to UML where it is the most used and useful.

Check Wikipedia for more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Modeling_Lang uage [wikipedia.org]

Cheers

Re:UML, model-driven architectures? (1)

Decker-Mage (782424) | more than 8 years ago | (#15119478)

Actually I've been using predicate calculas for this for several decades with good results (zero bugs). UML has it's place for those that are visually oriented (which is something I'm singularly unequipped to do). And yes, almost all my stuff has been user-facing with business-rules or operational function (military). UML is a tool, like any other, that forces a methodology constraint with the hope (in this case closer to a promise) of delivering a product that actually does what it is supposed to do. Whatever works. Unfortunately GP has been confused by the usual use to which I've seen it put as well. Generally, I've rarely seen it used in-house until the last decade for the actual development process and most people don't get to see how IT is really doing their development work. FWIW, it's about time something like this was really used in the development process. I had to roll my own way back when, even down to a completely different (structured) flowcharting methodology. Goal: Product as specified with zero bugs. Thankfully I, and my various teams, was always able to deliver. Would that such tools existed back when I started.

Just my $0.02

Competition: how things should work (4, Insightful)

cpu_fusion (705735) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115899)

The advances in the Java IDE space over the last four years have been fantastic. Whether you are a fan of Netbeans, Eclipse, another IDE, or even if you don't use Java, this competition should be a nice reminder of how a working market produces innovative products at a nice pace. (AMD vs. Intel is another example.)

It is a sad reminder of Microsoft's (criminal) monopoly, and the governments unwillingness to intervene, that for the vast majority of consumers, there has been very little of this "competitive energy" in the Operating System space. Sure, they can buy an Apple, but even there ... only one manufacturer for OS-X.

I'm running a nice 3-d enhanced desktop (Xgl) in Linux, but I see Windows users have another six months, minimum, to see anything comperable.

Imagine what the tech world would be like if the Operating System market was as competitive as NetBeans vs. Eclipse.

Re:Competition: how things should work (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15116140)

Now if only Sun would make Java into something that was actually useful without requiring massively inflated hardware specs. Nothing like writing an application that could have been a simple CGI script in Java, and requiring three times the hardware and five times the code.

Too bad both NetBeans and Eclipse still run so slowly that you can occasionally watch them redraw their windows. And I thought Eclipse was supposed to be "like a native app" - none of my native apps are anywhere near as slow as it is!

Re:Competition: how things should work (1)

KarmaMB84 (743001) | more than 8 years ago | (#15117440)

Cause we really wanted what Microsoft had 2 years ago to have been released at that time... *shudder*

Open Open Development Development (4, Interesting)

Doc Ruby (173196) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115917)

These are developer tools. Their sourcecode is open. Their consumers are developers.

Where's the adapter code that plugs each development platform's modules into the other's framework? This is the best case for open software discarding arbitrary vendor boundaries I've ever heard.

Great news... (1, Flamebait)

Kaptain_Korolev (848551) | more than 8 years ago | (#15115953)

For anyone who has had the misfortune to use the festival of shit that is Umbrello [sourceforge.net]

A tool, only in the derogatory sense of the word

Thanks (1)

Polski Radon (787846) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116005)

Thank you Sun!

Just wanna make sure... (-1, Flamebait)

Eckzow (754643) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116012)

...that everyone sees what I saw in the beginning. Sun has no interest in Java for the technology, and this latest ploy isn't to help *Java* -- its to help Sun. It always has been. If you're looking for the most greedy company out there that has absolutely zero interest in its customers and every interest in profit, it isn't Microsoft--its Sun.

Re:Just wanna make sure... (3, Interesting)

JebusIsLord (566856) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116039)

pssst... I have a secret for you... companies that do things purely out of altruism don't exist for long. Of course Sun is doing Java to benefit Sun. Otherwise the shareholds sure would be pissed!

Why do some people think that companies trying to make money is a dirty little secret? Its the whole point!

Re:Just wanna make sure... (2, Interesting)

Eckzow (754643) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116112)

I don't have a problem with a company making money off of a product. I have a problem with a company actively subverting other people's altruism in order to maintain a stranglehold on profit. Don't confuse me with an open-source-only hippie, but at the same time the Eclipse people deserve better than Sun trying to flush them out just to keep Java on a tight leash.

Re:Just wanna make sure... (1)

Decker-Mage (782424) | more than 8 years ago | (#15119455)

but at the same time the Eclipse people deserve better than Sun trying to flush them out just to keep Java on a tight leash.

I'm an outsider here as I don't like Java at all but Sun has forthrightly stated, at least in the software developement publications that I read that this is no way, shape, or form their intent. They (now) openly acknowledge that Eclipse seems to be the framework/IDE of choice of the Java community (at least you people have a by God real community, too!) but they intend to provide the NetBeans IDE as an alternative to those that like it (and I know of more than a few top name developers that I read that like it).

FWIW, I take them at their word. Y'all have a nice day.

Re:Just wanna make sure... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15116244)

...this latest ploy isn't to help *Java* -- its to help Sun. It always has been.


Yeah, and water is wet. You have a point somewhere there?

Modelling Tools? (1)

Aqua_boy17 (962670) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116201)

So where's my Sun Model Hotties Calendar?

Re:Modelling Tools? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15116229)

Right here [page3.com]

Re:Modelling Tools? (1)

DrEasy (559739) | more than 8 years ago | (#15118782)

LOL He's not kidding! :)

obligatory (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15116250)

pfft... Java?

If it isn't Linux and in straight C it's crap and not worthy of my esteemed time.
all other programmers are lazy

Good thing! (2, Interesting)

salapaka (967929) | more than 8 years ago | (#15116964)

It is great to see Sun open-sourcing their enterprise IDE ("Sun Java Studio Enterprise"). Now I can design/develop/debug/test my enterprise applications, web services and portal apps all in one environment!

There has always been need for a great open source UML modeling tool, hopefully people will start designing 'more' with tools like this readily available. Other tools experience:
  • I used to like Visio for its ease of use to draw up anything but I never liked the fact that it has no support for Java data types and its inability to generate Java code.
  • I love and still use Eclipse but it doesn't support enterprise/portal application development. Tools such as Rational Application Developer from IBM can be used but they cost a lot, so much bloated that not many people can use it because of its poor performance.
  • ArgoUML is good but not very polished. Not easy to use especially in a team environment.

Thank you Sun for helping the developer community.

Finally for Mac OS X? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15117178)

Since Java Studio Enterprise lack support for Mac OS X but NetBeans doesn't.

And a resounding 99 percent of the audience says (1)

threedognit3 (854836) | more than 8 years ago | (#15118819)

Who cares?

Open source is the passion of those who can't accept reality.

You're not going to replace Unix, you're not going to replace Windows.

Understand the guard at the gate of Oz.

"Nobody gets in to see the Wizard, not nobody, not anytime".

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