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Evolution is a Myth in Kansas

Hemos posted more than 14 years ago | from the i'm-gonna-cry dept.

Education 1503

Crafter wrote to us with the news that the Kansas State Board of Education is dropping evolution as a school mandated teaching. I'm speechless-I thought I was living in 1999, not 1799.

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Wow! (1)

Chang (2714) | more than 14 years ago | (#1750122)

This is definitely progress.

1rst (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1750123)


Alright! Let's go! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1750124)

Finally! It's been a while since /. had a good, rip-roarin' religious debate. Ready... fight! --Atheist.

there is NO evolution in kansas (1)

boog3r (62427) | more than 14 years ago | (#1750125)

this goes to show what happens when the human species doesn't evolve.

next they'll ban lunch at school because 2 people choked once.

mutation (1)

aaronwald (54564) | more than 14 years ago | (#1750127)

if one doesn't believe in evolution, does one believe in mutation?

What a way to usher in the 21st century... (1)

drudd (43032) | more than 14 years ago | (#1750129)

by returning to the 11th....

As long as people refuse to at least consider the scientific evidence of the world about them rather than stubbornly cling to outdated and misguided dogma, the human race will continue to fight progress every step of the way.


If we Prove its not a theory? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1750131)

What if we prove its not a theory.. how about we kill all the law makers in Kansas.. and then we will see how long this stoopid thought goes on. In this day and age its not a good joke to take a gun to school.. but maybe we just need to direct all the bomb making loonies to kansas and we kill 2 birds with one stone. So its in bad taste.. get over it.

When teaching evolution..... (1)

Serk (17156) | more than 14 years ago | (#1750133)

When teaching evolution in school is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve.

And that's all I've got to say about that.....

GOOD (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1750135)

You don't like it, go to hell.


Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751056)

What's wrong with teaching creation? That's just a theory too isn't it? The problem with teaching evolution in schools is that it often (almost always) gets taught as if it is fact.

Re:Polarization (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751058)

They no longer compete for strictly the same resources. In the areas where monkeys and humans still coexist, the monkeys are vegetarians, and the humans are hunters.

Re:mutation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751188)

Umm..If I'm not mistaken, evolution can be the result of a mutation that is good for the organism

2+2=5 (1)

Stitchley (57917) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751190)

that education logo has never been more appropriate. "Teacher, why does 2+2=5?" "Because God created it that way"

Are we sure MSNBC isn't channeling The Onion? (2)

ewhac (5844) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751192)

Open Note to Kansas State Board of Education:

Effective immediately, all board members are hereby terminated for gross incompetence. Please clean out your desks and vacate the premises by 17:00 local time. Remaining on Board of Education property after 17:00 will be treated as trespassing, and local law enforcement will be summoned.

Elections for replacements for the vacated posts will be held during the upcoming general elections in November.


Kansas State Board of Education (3)

sluke (26350) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751195)


I am from Kansas (I just go to school in Massachusetts) who has a little bit of insight into this situation. The board of education is a powerful governmental institution whose members are elected by statewide ballot in Kansas. Unfortunately, this is an election that noone pays any attention to. The Christian coalition noticed this and proceded to find very very right wing candidates to run as republicans for the open seats several years ago.

Kansas is predominantly Republican (that's an understatement) and on the ballot you can just pick a straight ticket as one of your options, so many people just picked the repulican candidates and WHAM! half of the state board of education has a very fundimentalist viewpoint.

I'm not surprised at all with this latest move by such an esteemed body, next they'll probably require creationism to be taught and physics to be banned. I'm glad I got the heck out of that state.

Question for the Darwinists (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751196)

The one problem with Darwinism that perplexes me is the fact that there aren't any hybrids (half man/half ape) around. Okay, some may dispute this with examples such as Jesse Berst. :) Just wondering how the Darwinists resolve this issue.

Wow. (1)

Kyobu (12511) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751201)

This really amazes me. The inmates are running the asylum, I guess. I really don't get why these creationists are so sure that the Bible says that evolution can't have taken place. Denying the validity of evolution, and furthermore denying the right to evaluate its validity to students, is ridiculous and dangerous. The evidence for evolution is even stronger than for other widely accepted theories, but its imagined threatening quality makes it the target of people who can't tolerate the idea of humans and apes having a common ancestor.
Give it up, guys! Take a trip to the Galapagos and look at the finches!

banned? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751204)

Was it banned from being taught, or is it just no longer required? The story didn't seem to say... Maybe I missed it.

The end times are coming! (2)

agtofchaos (56094) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751206)

Get these godless whores out of our schools! Save the children from eternal damnation! The bible is the word of god, and every line of it is from god!! Burn the books. Shoot the artists and scientists. Burn the heretics at the stake!!! It is time to return to that old tyme religion! Praise god and let's take back this nation for Jesus!!
(for the few dimwits out there, I was being sarcastic)

Re:mutation (2)

aaronwald (54564) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751208)

so if kansas doesnt believe in evolution then they probably wont care about mutation. so then it should be real easy to dump all sorts of nasty things into kansas.

maybe its natural selection of the states. kansas stays stupid and the rest of the states can exploit it so that we become stronger.

Re:Wow! (1)

davey_bee (60910) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751210)

i've always wondered how scientific our teachings on evolution are. they sound like plausable ideas, but the evidence doesn't seem to be there... its always seemed sketchy to me. better send scooby & gang to investigate

We're not all like that (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751229)

Well, most people where I live (Lawrence, KS) are outraged. Mr. Roth probably just had a heart attack, he's like 80 years old. If your state is in need for some Christians, we've got some unwanted ones here.


Ribo99 (71160) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751231)


Morons, all of them.
OK, maybe they can argue that teaching Evolution might deter one's faith in God, but it is JUST A THEORY. It hasn't been proven any more then the existance of God has been proven. Next they're going to start trying to teach the Creation Story.

And my Mother wonders why I don't go to church any more....

- Riboflavin

Interesting (1)

nicksand (28560) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751233)

They supposedly eliminated "evolution as an underlying principle of biology". Precisely how did they do that? Since most modern biology is indeed founded on the belief that evolution is a fact. Its things like this which impress upon me the unlimited stupidity of the human race. On one hand we have senators and a president who don't even have enough true leadership ability to run a McDonalds, let alone a country. On the other hand we have a small but vocal group of dipshits who are trying to force their cult upon everyone. Hmmm.

I'm not sure that they are fully ruling out evolution or removing it from the curriculum . . .since this article ( seems to merely imply that while evolution is not removed from the system, it is being given equall time with those wacky religous theories.

Hmmm. Anyway, the way religion is acting here makes Nietzche's Antichrist seem astonishingly accurate.

sigh... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751235)

You thought wrong. The sheer number of ignorant religious zealots, everywhere, never ceases to amaze me. Religious zealots don't bother me. Ignorant religious zealots do. On second thought, anybody who's ignorant pretty much annoys me.

Evolution IS a myth in Kansas (2)

Farce Pest (67765) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751236)

Apparently they are only devolving there. Must be that flat countryside that does something to their perspective.

Next on the Kansas legislative agenda: Round Earth is a myth.

I don't think we're in Kansas anymore, Toto! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751239)

No... now we are in the state of Denial!

are you f@cking kidding? (1)

ash3825 (49847) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751241)

What ever happened to separation of church and state? What are they going to teach now? I can see them banning teaching we were put here as some sort of grand alien experiment, but banning evolution? Where have these people been for the past 200 years. I can see including creation as another theory, but not excluding one. Its like trying to explain how the dinosaurs dissapeared(although everyone knows that BIll Gates had them killed). There are many theories on the topic, but nobody knows for sure. So, they teach many different explanations. How hard is that? Its all a mild form of trying to control the minds of America's youth. What ever happened to forming your own opinion? Present the facts and let people decide for themselves what is true and what's not. Don't dictate what we are allowed to know. Jesus, these people need to open their eyes a little bit.

Re:Wow! (1)

Chang (2714) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751242)

It might turn out that ole man Smithers was behind the whole evolution thing from the start.

I can't believe this happened in this day and age.

Re:Question for the Darwinists (1)

Serk (17156) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751244)

(Tongue in cheek, kinda)

That's easy... They're around, they tend to join Board's of Education.

Re:Question for the Darwinists (1)

jjoyce (4103) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751245)

I laughed out loud at this one. Very funny.

Re:Question for the Darwinists (1)

drivers (45076) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751258)

Half ape? We are about 98% chimp I think.

Re:What a way to usher in the 21st century... (1)

SumoRoach (52906) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751261)

They are not banning the teaching of evolution, only the teaching of evolution as proven scientific fact. It's a theory, and that is what it has been mandated to be taught as. Instead of seeing it as "now we must start believing in creationism again", it should be seen as a continuing search for evidence. We haven't (and will not be able to) prove evolution, but at least we can still continue to try.

Re:mutation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751263)

The actual story is that they dropped the requirement that speciation be taught. Speciation has never been explained or ever observed. Evolution involving mutation within a species, such as a woolly mammoth to an elephant, and can be verified scientifically, is still required to be taught.

Science will still march on. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751264)

When evolution is proved, Kansas will reconsider. Until then science will continue, and eventually prove it, right? I've got no problem believing in microevolution. And not to anger people, but I also happen to believe in creation. Faith is faith, science is science. When science proves evolution, it won't take faith to believe it. When science legitimately disproves creation, I'll be done with faith. (I can feel the flames coming now.)

Re:What a way to usher in the 21st century... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751266)

I agree that such ideas should be considered; however I don't think they should be presented as fact. Everyone should explore the possibility that we evolved from something else, but at this point there is no proof. Try keeping an open mind.

Darwin is my idol (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751269)

I know of little science that is more likely to be true than what Darwin came up with. To me, he made the biggest contribution to science of all, and I'm not in any way a biologist or related topic person. The term "ignorance" is being redefined once more.

Re:Are we sure MSNBC isn't channeling The Onion? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751270)

Elections for replacements? Look what happened at the last election. Maybe they should give the job to a million monkeys. If the monkeys can't type out a better curriculum, at least given a little time, we'd get a work of Shakespeare.


Kyobu (12511) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751272)

Isn't that a flaw in their logic? Evolution has no validity, so why would it make you believe in god less? F-ing morons. FAQ (3)

drivers (45076) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751274)

Before this turns into some big evolution debate, try reading the
FAQ []

Not that it will help. sigh.

Re:Wow. (1)

methuseleh (29812) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751275)

Why go all the way to the Galpagos when there are pictures a plenty? And what do the Galapagos finches tell us about evolution?


Re:Question for the Darwinists (1)

Dug (9395) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751296)

Quite simple. There were probably were half man half apes, but over time we ate all their food, or all of them and they became extinct.
You should of noticed that one of the things that Human beings are good at is the extinction of other species.
Not forgetting the apes that can talk using sign language etc. that were in the news recently.

Proving the Evolution Does Not Exist (1)

Osvaldo Doederlein (34220) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751300)


1) The idiots writing "FIRST POST!!" messages in /. - what is this, kindergarten? CmdrTaco should require a minimum age (say, 5) to join the site.

2) The Neanderthals making laws to stop science, or to stop cryptographic software, or to stop the Sun (who orbits the Earth, I suppose creationists believe this too 'cause it's in that old book) and anything else that cannot be stopped

3) 90% of television's content (to mention only one major offender)

4) All people programming in [insert despicable obsolete language here] who didn't evolve either

They've got to be kidding... (1)

Disco Stu (13103) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751303)

When I saw the post, I thought that probably Kansas was requiring that evolution be taught as a theory that hasn't been proven (which it hasn't), rather than as the absolute facts.

Then I read the article.
Yes, the creation vs. evolution debate does involove religion. However, that isn't the whole point of it. I'm a Christian, and I believe in evolution (progressive Creationism). The truth is, there is evidence to both sides of the debate. How can we expect people to be able to understand the debate without presenting all the evidence for both sides of it? This standard amounts to nothing more than the Kansas school board dictating beliefs to students while ignoring facts.

When I was in sixth grade, my teacher spent a whole semester teaching us about the debate. Our grade for the semester was based on a paper we wrote, supporting one side, or the other (sadly, the idea that parts of boths theories could be true wasn't even presented). In the process, I learned a great deal about the scientific method, how to find info in scientific journals, and how to look for bias in research. While my teacher did teach some shaky ideas (such as the idea that the second law of thermodynamics contradicts evolution), a great deal was learned by all. More important than learning the facts about the debate, we learned a lot about how to think for ourselves, and not trust every view presented just because it's "in a book."

I shudder to think about how many (or few, I should say) people coming out of the Kansas school system will have any idea about how to think for themselves.

this is not good (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751305)

Comming from someone who believes in god, and from a (somewhat) social conservivitive, this is not good.

Another interesting case is in saskatawan, where the courts decided that saying the lords prayer was illagal, it shocked me that a school board would even try make its students pray.

What happened to seperation of church and state, i would rather have my freedom of religion than to try and force people to believe in god, oh well, i don't even like the idea of catholic school boards.

Bass Ackwards (0)

mholve (1101) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751307)

You bible belt folks never cease to amaze the rest of the civilized world... :)

Repent now, sinners!

All I have to say.... (1)

HiredMan (5546) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751308)

"Apes evolved from creationists."

oh yeah, and,

"The gene pool needs some chlorine."

okay, and,

"People who think human beings can't devolve would do well to remember that poodles came from wolves." -me

Guess that's it -



Farce Pest (67765) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751310)

If teaching evolution can destroy their faith, then their faith must suck pretty bad.

(And of course, evolution is just a theory, in the same way that gravitation is just a theory. Theories can't be proven true, only proven false.)

Suggestions for PI... (1)

scott__ (19343) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751312)

And how about rounding off PI to a nice even three?


I don't like living here... in Omaha (1)

Rift (3915) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751313)

Here in Omaha, there has been a continuing debate in the papers and the board of education meetings over evolution. Apparently, if creationism can not be taught, evolution should not be either, say the christians. (other religious sects have stayed out of it, or joined the evolution side)

The problem is, the board is buying it. Why? the creationists are saying 'evolution is not a fact. It even says so right in the name! "Theory of Evolution"... If we can't teach the theory of creationism, then that's out too!'. These people actually think that they are right, and the morons on the board are starting to see it that way.

We all expect this of the religious masses... they are simply trying to make sure that everyone believes what they believe. No big deal... but when educated people start to decide that we should NOT teach scientific theories that have held up to the highest scrutiny, then we have a problem.

Should we stop with the Theory of Gravity? If we do, do they think if everyone quits learning about it, we won't fall down? But it's a theory, anyway, so we should quit teaching it..

Or perhaps a better example, since they say that the theory of evolution can not be experimentally proven (because they have no idea what constitutes an experiment)... How about quantum theory? There are many that think it is plain wrong, that it is incomplete, and that it will soon be replaced. However, they know that it is a GOOD theory and should be taught. Why? because it does a better job of predicting observations than the previous theories. The laser, microwave ovens, genetic sequencing, all would currently be impossible without this theory.. should we stop teaching it because it teaches that there is no-one choosing interactions, that they are chance and statistics? Sure.. why not.

I could go on... these people write in and say "Science has not given us happyness", and then try to argue against teaching "Science" (note how they capitalize it always).. well, I don't know about you, but I'd be pretty miserable if I didn't have /.

Let them grow wheat (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751315)

Will the last intelligent person left in Kansas please turn out the lights before you go? The rest of the Kansas natives must be Christian® brain-washed so well as to be completely in the dark. So let's conserve some energy. Ok?

I am agog. (2)

slothbait (2922) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751337)

If I lived in Kansas, I would promptly leave. I certainly do not want to raise my children in such an environment. I had no idea that any secular education board in the US was so backward as to actually pass something like this.

And this information is being banned at the *university* level? This is truly unbelievable.


who cares (1)

arielb (5604) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751341)

so don't go to kansas for your education. Or go to a private school. And it works both ways. If you don't want evolution don't get the govt public schools involved-just go to a private school that doesn't teach evolution.

Please read the WHOLE story!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751343)

They are only dropping the requirement that speciation be taught. Speciation is a bunch of crap that has never been explained. Evolution involving mutations within a species (the kind of evolution that can be verified as fact) is still required to be taught.

Re:mutation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751344)

Bullshit! Speciation has been observed many, many times, particularly in plants. See FAQ which has a specific list of observed speciations.

Any idiot knows we came from Adam and Eve. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751346)

Any idiot knows we came from Adam and Eve. :wq!

More (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751348)

They're also trying to teach that the Grand Canyon may have been made from a volcano because the bible says the earth is only a few thousand years old, and a river couldn't have made it in that little of time.

Keep 'em. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751349)

We've got too many of the little buggers running around here, as is. They breed faster than rabbits. Anyone know a good, humane Christian control method? We tried trapping them but they just keep coming back.

Re:Question for the Darwinists (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751351)

Because the hybrids would be sterile.

Polarization (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751354)

The problem is that lifeforms tend to exterminate other lifeforms which compete for the same resources and are even just a *little* bit less intelligent, strong, fast, whathaveyou.

Not to mention, thanks to sexual selection, advantageous traits spread through a population MUCH faster than would be possible through mutation and asexual reproduction. This is why even simple sexual organisms are much more complex than the most sophisticated asexual organisms.

Re:Suggestions for PI... (1)

Kyobu (12511) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751355)

Indiana once did that. No shit.

Is it just Darwinism... (1)

Visuchangavu (75438) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751378)

...that they are taking out? Or all evolutionary theories? I mean, even staunchly atheistic biologists these days are abandoning Darwinism in favor of other evolutionary theories (Punctuated Equilibrium, etc.). Maybe that's why the schmeal passed...

Sad.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751380)

It seems to me (WARNING: agnostic college biology major bias here), that if your faith in God is shaken because of 1 scientific principle with really shows more of the truth and beauty in life, and because it contradicts text written 2000 years ago (or more considering the Old Testament) by men, than you have some problems with your level of faith to begin with.

I find it amusing when creationists decry Evolution (signified with a capital 'E'!) as falsehood, yet they don't seem to have too much problem with physics and engineering! They also LOVE to misuse the Second Law of Thermodynamics to "disprove" evolution, and point at the fossil record with little or no understanding of geology/paleontology. Ah well, I see plenty of scientists whose religious faith (Christian or otherwise) is unshaken due to science, and take strength from the idea that they are exploring a puzzle set out before them by a Higher Power and revelaing its truth to man.


Kevin Christie

Challenge your ideas... (1)

tatsu69 (59184) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751383)

I happen to believe in creation but I still don't think evolution should not be taught. It just challenges your ideas and helps to reinforce your beliefs. I also don't think school is the place for religious theories to be taught.

And a theory can never be proven correct, only not proven wrong.

This != mandated creationism (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751384)

As far as I can tell from the article, they have not mandated that creationism be taught, just made teaching evolution non-mandatory.

IMHO, evolution *is* just a theory, and shouldn't be taught as fact. Many non-religious scientists are questioning the tenets of evolution.

Open your mind.

Kansas Educational Policy (1)

bgarrett (6193) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751386)

As a Christian, I fully support teaching evolution in schools. I don't personally believe that "macro-evolution" (the life-from-lifelessness, amoeba-to-man) is a viable explanation for human origins, but I'm also quite clued in on the fact that as yet, there is ABSOLUTELY NO substantive proof for any single theory of the origin of life.

Having said that, I restate: I support the teaching of evolution in schools, provided that it is taught as what it really is: a theory, no more, no less. I support the teaching of creationism with the same caveats.

The FAQ (posted earlier) is an excellent take on this long-debated topic, and those who feel the larger ramifications of the Kansas decision merit further rehashing are encouraged to take their opinions to the newsgroup.

about God's existence (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751388)

These religious radicals need to give it a rest. Let's not forget that great quote from the Hitchhiker's Guide...

The argument goes something like this: 'I refuse to prove that I exist', says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'

'But', says Man, 'the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'

'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that', and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

Re:Question for the Darwinists (2)

jamesc (37895) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751389)

Why aren't there any hybrids?

Just check the fossil record. Ancient hominids weren't exactly thick on the ground, but there were a few fossils left.

Why aren't they alive today? Because they'd be incredibly old. Thus, they were terminated by the US Social Security MiB before they could break the USA budget and become our owners.

QED. 8-)

PS: For a real discussion, try the Fossil Hominids FAQ [] .

Heh.. Bass-Ackward Public Schools.. (1)

Bowie J. Poag (16898) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751392)

..You were expecting something smart to come from a group of people who intentionally live in the path of tornadoes? :)

All I ever needed to know about "Creation Science" was from a video we were shown in Biology class back in high school. In order to be fair, we had the evolutionist viewpoint shown to us, followed by the creationist viewpoint on what happened during mass-extinction that occured on earth about 65 million years ago. I laughed so hard that I can remember the exact words of what was said in the video to this day:

"..About 4,000 years ago, a catastrophic flood wiped out many forms of life on Earth -- The fish were the first to die, follow by the....."

Somehow, I have a hard time buying the idea that fish are capable of drowning.. :)

Bowie J. Poag

Re:What a way to usher in the 21st century... (1)

Thorgal (3103) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751394)

That was really intelligent. In similar vein, the theory of gravity
should not be taught as proven fact.

Learn what the scientific meaning of "theory" is, then post.

Re:I am agog. (1)

sluke (26350) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751395)

no, the universities are not governed by the state board of education at all. Plus, what stupid university professor would actually stop teaching evolution and promptly lose all his/her federal funding?

PS I know, my father is an administrator at the University of Kansas

Re:I am agog. (1)

drivers (45076) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751426)

Does this mean the conservatives AND the intelligent will start home-schooling?

In other news:

Science is now determined by popularity. Film at 11.

kansas... (1)

Zurk (37028) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751429)

"i dont think we're in Kansas anymore.."

Re:Question for the Darwinists (1)

198348726583297634 (14535) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751431)

Could some modern species be considered hybrids? Like, could modern chimpanzees be an intermediate step between early primates and early man?

Re:Question for the Darwinists (3)

Anonymous Shepherd (17338) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751433)

There are plenty of hybrids around. Lots of dogs are, surprise, hybrids. If you mean inter-species breeding? Genetically too dissimilar. Do you mean 'missing link' hybrids? Previous versions will be replaced by newer versions because newer versions are more efficient/intelligent/effective. I don't know that I can 'prove' it, but I will say that 2 different species that occupy the same niche will either wipe the other out or evolve to occupy different niches. I don't think there is another option. So in this case either we *were* half ape men who evolved into full humans, or we co-existed with them until we finally wiped them out, or they evolved into something sufficiently different to survive in a different niche(great apes?) while we evolved into something else entirely so that competition between the two did not occur.


Clarification (1)

TypoDaemon (43268) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751435)

I'm a student in KS, so this issue is a little bit more than moral to me. I've been following it for a few months... funny, I never thought it'd matter much to anyone out of KS...

Evolution is not being eliminated from the curriculum, it is simply being not required. Most teachers in the cities will continue to teach evolution as they've always done, whereas most teachers in the country(who are usually home-schoolers btw), the massive amounts of country we have, will teach either pure creationism or a combo.

This changes absolutely nothing except it tells the nation that the reps of Kansas are idiots.

The politics of kansas are screwy... we have like 3 big cities in kansas, all the rest is mainly country, and therefore republican... always screws the cities, who are in the minority, over horribly.

I wonder what would happen if my biology started to teach __his__ view of evolution to classes... he is a very devout jew... let's see them support letting teachers teach what they wish after that...

The Daemon

Kansas Biologists (1)

displaytest (31803) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751437)

Well, there goes the flood of crack biologists that we were seeing coming out of Kansas!

Kansas (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751439)

Nobody is evolving in Kansas anyway for god sake

And you wonder why people make fun of Kansas. (1)

Adam Schumacher (267) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751441)

Well, I've got to say it.

The citizens of Kansas are idiots.

Not specifically, mind you. I'm sure that there are a lot of people living in Kansas that are bright, intelligent people, and I harbor no resentment towards those people. It just seems that they are not in the majority amongst the voting public.

I mean, seriously, what kind of electorate would elect Kansassholes like these to any kind of public office? I have no problem with faith. Blind faith is just stupid though. And to willfully impose your ignorance (yes, I stand by my statement that rejection of science is ignorance) upon your own children is morally revolting and inexcusable.

I certainly hope that someone has the cajones (I use the term figuratvely, with no prejudice intended against the female or neutral genders) to stand up to these people and get fact back into school where it belongs.

Keep in mind that these are my opinions. If this bothers you, look here [] .

Adam Schumacher

Way to go kansas (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751442)

This is a step in the right direction. The next step (obviously) is to begin teaching creationism. Then the next step is to outlaw going to school past the age of 12. Otherwise independant though might arise in our children, which also might led them astray from the beliefs they have been preached since they were born. This would be an outrage. Just imagine children thinking for themselves, using their own power of logic to define themselves and their place in this world. This cannot happen, we must continue the practice of making our children believe blindly in their faith. Otherwise they might start to ask questions that are difficult to answer. Choose the correct route, nay the only route, call your state representative today and tell them to vote yes on the "No education after 12" law.

Re:about God's existence (1)

arielb (5604) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751444)

well if atheists are getting their arguments from the hitchhiker's guide, no wonder why there are so few of them left

Re:Kansas State Board of Education (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751473)

This is interesting because I am a christian and consider myself left wing.

Bull! (2)

Anonymous Shepherd (17338) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751474)

By that premise *all* scientific thought is theory and hypothesis. How can we prove the gravitational constant or relativistic physics? All we can do is show that it occurs/works within a certain error, no more, no less.

At some point we will find an incontravertible error, and revise our science until they are more accurate--but even then, it is a theory and not a law.


MULE (1)

Farce Pest (67765) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751476)

Horse + donkey. Almost always sterile, with one or two known exceptions.

You don't see half man/half ape hybrids for two reasons: 1) Man is an ape, in a technical sense. 2) The DNA is not compatible enough.

Orangutans are supposedly the closest to human in a genetic sense. If you would like to volunteer for an experiment, please specify your sex and a suitable orangutan of the opposite sex will be provided for you.

Morons shouldn't pretend they know logic (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751478)

Theories cannot be proven true or false. If you have a theory that you have proved false, then just take that theory and negate it, giving you a new theory which is true.

Creation "science" is an oxymoron (1)

lil_billy (25771) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751479)

The article cites the 1982 trial of McLean vs. Arkansas Board of Education -- it just so happens that I've been reading the judge's opinion (so that I can argue with the religious guys at work) and one of the fundamental tenets of Judge Overton's opinion is that the "essential characteristics of science" are:

1. It is guided by natural law;
2. It has to be explanatory by reference to natural law;
3. It is testable against the empirical world;
4. Its conclusions are tentative, i.e. are not necessarily the final word; and
5. It is falsifiable
He goes on to basically state that for all of these reasons "Creation Science" is not really science.
Pretty cool.
I can't believe these lowbrow religious wackos are finding converts... goes to show that people will try really hard to find something bigger than themselves to believe in.

Re:Question for the Darwinists (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751480)

Asking this question betrays an ignorance of biology and genetics too profound for me to combat here. I suggest you try completing a basic high school biology course (Not in Kansas) or read SOME sort of book on the subject.

Who will be the next Scopes? (1)

Skim123 (3322) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751481)

I wonder how long it will take before a brave teacher in Kansas teaches his students evolution, is arrested, and goes back to the Supreme Court. I'd really be interested to see that happen....

Evolution as a Theory is Dead... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751482)

Folks, I will be blunt.

There is increasing evidence piling up in various scientific fields that shows that evolution as it is currenly taught... is bunk! Evolution has become a belief system.

A theory has to explain how things happen - yet the latest research on cell metabolism, the Krebs cycle, and chaos theory, DNA etc. cannot be adequately explained by evolutionary theory.

Worse, evolution didn't *anticipate* any of this stuff (which a really good theory would - like the periodic table of the elements is able to predict future element's properties).


Scientists should realize that evolution no longer works as a theory, and should say "we don't know, but we'll keep trying to find out!"

Even Richard Dawkins, by titling one of his books, "Climbing Mt. Improbable" tacitly acknowledges that evolutionary theory is in trouble.

Flame on, my prettys!


Re:mutation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751483)

The definition of a species is still being debated by biologists. Under some definitions of a species, somebody with Downs Syndrome wouldn't be human

Re:Question for the Darwinists (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751484)

it's thought that chimpanzees and humans both extend the same superclass, rather than human extending chimp, or something like that. -jmatthew3

this is sick... (1)

Vernon (8764) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751513)

this calls for a quote:
"If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve..." Jello Biafra

Re:Polarization (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751515)

If that is the case, why do completely "animal" monkeys still exist? Shouldn't they have been stomped on our assension (sp?) up the evolutionary ladder, the same as all the "intermediates? Joelinux ....Too lazy to log in at work

the BIBLE can't be proven either.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751516)

" Religious groups have argued that evolution cannot be proven, and some feel that evolution is not in accordance with Biblical teachings regarding the origins of life. " ... MSNBC article... There is more evidence of evolution ... than there is evidence in the bible. I say thats pretty stupid... You can't prove anything in the bible.. you can prove evolution with science.. what a bunch of bull i think the people in kansas that decided this should go back to school... When i was in school all i learned about evolution was up to a certain point. I learned that much was still theory.. and did not learn that we came from goop was fact. just theory.. which science is trying to prove today.. which is a hella of alot closer to the truth than the bible will ever be.

Hopefully not banned, but... (1)

Phroggy (441) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751518)

I would hope that teaching evolution not be banned, but as long as they're not exclusively promoting other models, I'm glad to see this.

The origins of the universe are beyond the realm of empirical science. The scientific method requires that you be able to observe and reproduce things, and you can't observe or reproduce the beginning of the universe. I'm not saying that the evolution model is completely wrong, but I think most people give it far too much credit. There are other scientific models out there that fit just as many facts as evolution.

Is there evidence to suggest that the earth has been around for 4.5 billion years? Yes, but there's also evidence to suggest that the earth has been around for 6,000 years (no, I'm not kidding). Some of the evidence that people assume proves evolution fits the creation model as well. Some of the dating methods used to prove the age of the earth have been proven to be highly inaccurate, but are used anyway whenever it's convenient.

I am opposed to teaching religion in public schools. I don't want the government teaching children about God. However, Creationism, if taught in a secular way alongside of evolution can only encourage people to examine the scientific evidence.

Just as Linux and other operating systems should be made available to anyone who wants to use them instead of the dominant OS, Creation should be made available as an alternative to the dominant origins model for anyone who wants to believe it, and who is looking for a way to deal with the facts that don't fit the Evolution model.

Let the flaming begin...

Re:banned? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751519)

Speciation (a specific form of evolution) is no longer required to be taught. More media spin.

Teaching as Theory Not Fact (1)

alexalexis (31082) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751520)

From my understanding, they're not banning teaching evolution, they're just saying you can't say it's a fact. Sure, that'll freak out a lot of people, but hey .. it isn't proven (it's extremely hard to give a biological proof). Theory is theory until proven, and shouldn't be represented as anything else until then.

I think this is actually not as bad as a lot of people seem to think it is -- it'll certainly open up more discussions about our origins, and as far as I'm concerned, that's a good thing. I don't know about the rest of you, but I've certainly gained a great deal of knowledge about the world and people around me through discussion of topics that not everyone can agree on.

In my humble opinion, too many people take too many theories for granted (religion and science both). On the same note, too many people take too many things way too seriously. People need to lighten up and realize that not everybody can agree on everything, and what's right for one community may be a heinous mistake in another.

In no way am I trying to stir up sympathy for nutcases in the ultra-religious ultra-right, but I do think people are over reacting to this.

Re:Question for the Darwinists (1)

quiller (67784) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751521)

It is important to realize that we did not evolve from chimps, we just share a common ancestor with them. Humans evolved for a different habitat than others of the ape branch. Eventually, of course, we no longer needed to evolve for habitats, but could alter our circumstances to fit them. And the reason our direct ancestors aren't around is that we competed with them for the same territories (which is kind of what natural selection is about anyways.) and won. The other surviving species did the same things.

Re:2+2=5 (1)

ywwg (20925) | more than 14 years ago | (#1751522)

Doesn't the Bible say PI equals 3?

Been to Kansas (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1751524)

As much inbreeding as goes on there, you'd think they'd accept data genetical without much question. Maybe it's wishful thinking on their part. God (doesn't exist, figure of speech) knows the people there are not normal folk...
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