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New Apple Campaign Target PC Flaws

Hemos posted more than 8 years ago | from the so-many-submissions dept.

819

sodul writes"Apple just started a new campaign to emphasize the advantages of Mac versus a regular tasteless PC. The ads represent a young cool looking man (Mac) and a white collar in his 40's (not cool, PC). In one of the ads the PC repeat itself several times because it had to reboot. In an other one (and maybe the most aggressive of all) PC is sick because of a virus, while Mac is healthy. You can watch the new spots on Apple's site "

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Awesome! More Windows VS OS X flamewars! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15244985)

w00t!

The Linux Guy (1)

EccentricAnomaly (451326) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245300)

must be RMS

Dumb. PC==Mac. Mac==PC (-1, Troll)

Whiney Mac Fanboy (963289) | more than 8 years ago | (#15244995)

Does Apple think a mac is a supercomputer? Or do they believe that PC stands for something other then "Personal Computer".

Even dumber since modern Mac's are a bog standard Personal Computer (that comes with a nice box & even nicer software).

Re:Dumb. PC==Mac. Mac==PC (2, Interesting)

cypherz (155664) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245051)

Do you own an Intel Mac? Seems like lots of people who make the PC==Mac argument don't own an Intel Mac. I'm not attacking you, I'm just wondering. I ordered a MBP yesterday (can't wait till it gets here!) so I'm not going to comment on the hardware yet. I know that my iMac G5 is *much* better constructed than any PC I've owned (or built for that matter). Just because two computers share the same chipset, does that really make them equal? For my part, the jury is still out.

Re:Dumb. PC==Mac. Mac==PC (2, Informative)

Whiney Mac Fanboy (963289) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245177)

Seems like lots of people who make the PC==Mac argument don't own an Intel Mac.

It seems to me like lots of people who make the PC==Mac argument know what PC stands for & have been using the term PC to describe Macs through Apple's motorolla, ppc and intel days.

Have a look at these old Apple Manuals/Advertisments [computerhistory.org] and you will see that Apple has been calling their products Personal Computers since day one.

It is only the post 1992 Mac Fanboy crowd that started differentiating - and quite frankly, I'm dissapointed that Apple is starting to join in.

Re:Dumb. PC==Mac. Mac==PC (1)

cypherz (155664) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245244)

Oh. I didn't really get that point in your original post. Thought your were making more of a hardware comparison. As far as the terminology goes, I agree. They're all "PC's".

Don't you think it is to Apple's advantage to promote the "difference" between Mac's and "PC's" since they've lost the distinctive of PPC vs Intel? Even if it means fudging a little bit regarding the terminology?

I noticed you didn't answer the question about owning an Intel Mac.

Re:Dumb. PC==Mac. Mac==PC (0, Flamebait)

Whiney Mac Fanboy (963289) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245315)

Don't you think it is to Apple's advantage to promote the "difference" between Mac's and "PC's" since they've lost the distinctive of PPC vs Intel? Even if it means fudging a little bit regarding the terminology?

Yes, I do think that's in Apple's advantage. But they should say "windows" rather then "PC", so they don't look like retards.

I noticed you didn't answer the question about owning an Intel Mac.

No, I don't - I don't buy 1st gen mac products generally, and I'm going to wait even longer in the intel switch case.

Re:Dumb. PC==Mac. Mac==PC (4, Funny)

Ohreally_factor (593551) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245489)

I'm starting to seriously question your credentials, man.

The two cases where a mac user uses the term PC are:

1) Disparagingly, as in a comparison to Macs

2) Defensively, when claiming that Macs are PCs, since PC stands for Personal Computer.

It's in Chapter 1 of How to Be an Irritating Fanboy, page 17.

Re:Dumb. PC==Mac. Mac==PC (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15245505)

They only look like retards to you. To the rest of the world (i.e. those who have the mental horsepower to understand what "PC" actually MEANS in 2006), they look normally intelligent.

Re:Dumb. PC==Mac. Mac==PC (1)

Golias (176380) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245499)

Actually, it was Windows bigots that hijacked the word "PC" to mean "Windows System."

Until the early 90's, people called computers that ran MS-DOS and Windows "IMB Compatable" computers.

Microsoft hated that, because that made it sound like a Compaq running Windows was somehow inferior to an IBM running Windows. Also, since IBM was moving away from DOS at the time (in favor of OS/2), they were worried that the term (which was essential to them usurping IBM's monopoly) was no longer going to apply.

So they "encouraged" the industry press to use the term "PC" to apply to WinTel boxes, and thus a new usage was born.

"PC" used to stand for "Personal Computer." Now, it stands for "Piece of Crap."

Re:Dumb. PC==Mac. Mac==PC (4, Insightful)

richdun (672214) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245072)

modern Mac's are a bog standard Personal Computer (that comes with a nice box & even nicer software)

The "dumb" ones are those that hold on to the notion that the worth of a computer is solely in its hardware. That "even nicer software" is what seperates the two - the consumer on average doesn't really care much about how well the hardware can perform, he/she just cares what he/she can do with the computer (other than overclock it, give it shiny lights, or add four of those latest extreme ultra super graphics cards for $500 each).

Re:Dumb. PC==Mac. Mac==PC (1)

Whiney Mac Fanboy (963289) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245265)

I generally agree with what your saying - but I'm not sure what relevance it has to my post.

Do you disagree with me and think a Macintosh is not a Personal Computer?

Personal Computer != personal computer (1)

ixl (811473) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245381)

You're trolling, but I'll bite anyways. A Mac is a personal computer (lower case, generic term), but is not a Personal Computer (upper case, brand name).

Re:Dumb. PC==Mac. Mac==PC (1)

timdorr (213400) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245078)

It's all branding, so why care? Do you get in a huff when people say "ping pong" instead of "table tennis", or "kleenex" instead of "tissue"?

Re:Dumb. PC==Mac. Mac==PC (0, Flamebait)

Whiney Mac Fanboy (963289) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245202)

Do you get in a huff when people say "ping pong" instead of "table tennis", or "kleenex" instead of "tissue"?

I would if they said "Its a kleenex, not a tissue", or "We're not playing table tennis, we prefer ping-pong."

I have no objection to people calling a mac a mac, but saying its a mac, not a PC is retarded.

Re:Dumb. PC==Mac. Mac==PC (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15245416)

saying its a mac, not a PC is retarded.

So is clinging to this brain-dead don't-get-out-much belief that your view of what these terms should mean overrides what they actually do mean to people.

(And so is calling things "retarded". What are you, 12?)

Re:Dumb. PC==Mac. Mac==PC (2, Insightful)

RootMoose (20495) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245331)

I think the point about using PC here is that they can make negative comments about Windows - without actually saying Windows. They don't have to sully themselves by directly disparaging Microsoft.

Point out that a Mac is a Personal Computer if you want (it is true & I agree with you). But Joe 6-pack knows that a Mac is not a PC - a Mac is Mac and a PC is Windows. In fact he may not even know what PC stands for...

Re:Dumb. PC==Mac. Mac==PC (4, Insightful)

tverbeek (457094) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245343)

Or do they believe that PC stands for something other then "Personal Computer".

They know that in vernacular English (rather than pedantic geekspeak), "PC" means "a computer running Windows". (Most non-dumb geeks are at least aware of this fact.)

Re:Dumb. PC==Mac. Mac==PC (1)

courtarro (786894) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245463)

That's curious - a few years ago, I bet you would have said "PC" means "a machine running on the x86 architecture".

Re:Dumb. PC==Mac. Mac==PC (1)

timster (32400) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245400)

I know you're trolling, but just for the education of those who think you are insightful, please suggest a succinct name for "personal computers based on the general spec for Microsoft Windows, often including such technologies as PCI, ACPI, DDR SDRAM, Intel processors, etc, but with no specific differentiating factor, usually but not necessarily running a version of Microsoft Windows." Something that fits in nicely to "Mac vs. PC", yet conveys all the details of this subtle distinction. Once upon a time we called this "IBM-compatible", but that became absurd when IBM became a minor player in the market.

You could be arguing that there is no such thing as a Mac; i.e., that it does not make sense to unite Apple's computer products under a single brand name, but you would not argue that by attempting to subvert the typical usage of calling a PC a PC and a Mac a Mac.

Re:Dumb. PC==Mac. Mac==PC (4, Insightful)

hunterx11 (778171) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245402)

I bet you're one of those people who thinks you sound smart when you insist, "America isn't a democracy! It's a representative republic!"

It's semantics. "PC" in this context means IBM PC compatible. You know, I know it, and everyone reading this knows it. Pretending to be naive about it accomplishes nothing.

Re:Dumb. PC==Mac. Mac==PC (1)

Jeff DeMaagd (2015) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245438)

Apple did claim their G4 dowers were supercomputers, though that was a tenuous claim.

The history of the "PC" term came from the IBM model PC and it "stuck", such that it meant anything sold with DOS or Windows.

Re:Dumb. PC==Mac. Mac==PC (1)

Sippan (932861) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245440)

It's hardly Apple's fault that 9 out of 10 people who are going to view these ads, see Mac OS-running Apple-manufactured personal computers as "Macs" and Windows-running non-Apple-manufactured personal computers as "PCs".

And it's even hardlier a good reason to think less of the computer =P

Re:Dumb. PC==Mac. Mac==PC (1)

Ucklak (755284) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245498)

You're fighing a losing battle. Been there.

For years I've said that the Mac is a PC because it is.
After having some flamethrowers shot at me a little fact around the PCJr years that Apple clearly did not want the distinction that their computers were personal computer but extentions of something I can't remember.

So Apple has always maintained that their computers are NOT personal computers.
Just don't tell a Mac zealot that their PC's are PC's because they're not. They're Macs.

I just wonder what you call it when you take a Mac (Intel flavor) and slap Windows on it. Crap? Rotten Apple?

Doesn't work (2, Insightful)

omeg (907329) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245014)

Pretty much all hate campaigns I've seen against another product just didn't work out. Logically, I'd also think that showing people how good your product is (rather than how bad the other product is) has a much more positive effect. But really, I'm not an expert on commercials. Anybody who can point me to some hate campaigns by major companies that seem(ed) to be effective?

Re:Doesn't work (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15245034)

Diod you watch any television during the last US election?

Re:Doesn't work (4, Insightful)

Tozog (599414) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245041)

Most politicial campaigns?

Re:Doesn't work (0, Troll)

joe 155 (937621) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245070)

Another reason why this might well not work is that if you go on the site it doesn't even seem to work in Linux (the files are ".mov" so if I'm right you'd need quick-time for that which is an apple product which people who don't have apples might not have (I don't and wouldn't get it)... how are they going to convince me to change if I can't see it (In my country they won't let these adds on TV from the sounds of it because there always is problems when people make direct explicit comparisons to other products... so it won't be on tv for me either)

Re:Doesn't work (1)

the phantom (107624) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245418)

Perhaps because the adverts are on television? While you could watch the ads on your computer (assuming you have a Mac or Windows box), they are also (perhaps even primarily) being aired on television.

Re:Doesn't work (3, Insightful)

hunterx11 (778171) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245430)

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and make a wild guess that Linux users aren't the target audience of this marketing campaign.

Re:Doesn't work (1, Troll)

mctk (840035) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245113)

Intelligent Design.

Message from MS - you're a dinosaur (2, Interesting)

pubjames (468013) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245130)

Hate campaigns don't work? Well look at Microsoft's current campaign, they aren't criticizing their competitors, they are criticising you. You're a dinosaur. It's been running for quite a while so I guess they think it's effective. Unfortunately I think in the longer term it could backfire, as seen for instance in a recent cartoon in the Economist portraying MS as a dinosaur.

Re:Doesn't work (5, Informative)

EccentricAnomaly (451326) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245154)

I'm not an expert on commercials

Well the PC guy (John Hodgman) is an expert. He's the daily show's resident expert and the author of "The Areas of my Expertise". Which was reviewd on slashdot [slashdot.org] and by the Onion [avclub.com] .

Re:Doesn't work (5, Insightful)

Sometimes_Rational (866083) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245445)

This doesn't really look like a "hate campaign" to me. The ads give an affectionate look at what people commonly believe are Windows failings while strongly promoting what Macs can do. As played in the commercials, you don't hate the PC, he even has his strengths ("The things this guy can do with a spreadsheet"), but he isn't cool and competent like the Mac is. As to whether they work, advertisers do comparison ads all the time, so someone thinks that they work.

Re:Doesn't work (1)

corporatemutantninja (533295) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245465)

Google "Willie Horton".

ah... (3, Interesting)

joe 155 (937621) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245021)

now it all makes sense why MSN was running the other day with a story about how macs are not secure and will cause you to get viruses etc... they must have got wind of this early. Its a shame I'll never get to see these adds on TV though, the Advertising Standards Agency wouldn't let them air, they recently blocked a mac advert because it said that the CPU's job in a PC was boring... : S... I wasn't aware that CPU's could really get bored

Re:ah... (1)

Tibor the Hun (143056) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245068)

I saw 2 ads last night on Jay Leno.
But yeah, you're right about the peculiar timing of the onslaught of Mac virus stories.

Re:ah... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15245098)

Of course Macs are not that secure ... They can now run Windows XP ...

Re:ah... (1)

TooMuchEspressoGuy (763203) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245311)

Somewhat OT, but why was the parent modded as Troll? Seems to me that for a post to be Troll-worthy it needs to be, you know, controvercial or offensive or something.

Is Apple on the offensive (0, Redundant)

Tibor the Hun (143056) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245044)

Does this mean that Apple is ready to go on the offensive and increase its marketshare?
It seems that they've been preparing for years (OS X, iLife, iPods) in fine-tuning their products and with a smoothly going Intel switch they are ready to make a substantial move into homes.
Sadly, until they get "ghosting" process smooth they won't be able to make a massive entrance into the office.
I'd predict that within 5 years, in the US homes, they'll have close to a 15-20 % marketshare (If not even more). A LOT of the people I know have already purchased Macs, and are EXTREMELY happy with them.

Re:Is Apple on the offensive (1)

MisterSquid (231834) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245088)

Sadly, until they get "ghosting" process smooth they won't be able to make a massive entrance into the office.

I don't know what you men by "ghosting." Not a flame, just curious.

Re:Is Apple on the offensive (1)

aaarrrgggh (9205) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245161)

Ghost is a program to duplicate hard drives so you don't have to install all apps on each computer.

I thought the macs actually had something easier than this over the betwork, but don't know the details.

Re:Is Apple on the offensive (2, Informative)

George Beech (870844) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245164)

Apple has had NetBoot and Network Install [apple.com] since at least 10.2 Server (Possibly earlier, I wasn't playing with the server side till 10.2). I didn't get to play with it extensivly and at that time it wasn't a completly agravation free solution. But it has alot of promise especially if they have improved it since I looked at it.

Re:Is Apple on the offensive (2, Informative)

flamingnight (234353) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245206)

In addition to NetInstall, you can create an image of a hard disk, and use Disk Utility or asr (on the command line) to clone that image to another drive. That's how we set up machines here - one image each for Account Service, Creative and Studio, each with custom applications and settings. Our setup time is approximately 30 minutes with this process.

Re:Is Apple on the offensive (1)

Tibor the Hun (143056) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245249)

Do Intel Macs work the same way?
We're thinking about deploying some in a student lab.

Re:Is Apple on the offensive (2, Informative)

flamingnight (234353) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245466)

In terms of using the Restore feature of Disk Utility, it works the same way. Of course, you have to build the image on an Intel machine, but you can pretty much use any PPC or Intel Mac to clone any PPC or Intel Mac. We use Target Disk Mode to do it here.
Haven't tried NetInstall because we're too busy to get the server working, but I've heard that it works for Intel Macs as well.

Re:Is Apple on the offensive (1)

Gumph (706694) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245494)

Have you tried out Carbon Copy Cloner or Netrestore these are fantastic 'ghost-like' utils

http://www.bombich.com/software/index.html [bombich.com]

cheers
G

Re:Is Apple on the offensive (2, Interesting)

cypherz (155664) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245183)

I think you're absolutely correct about Apples marketshare in homes. Most of the hardcore Unix/Linux guys I know and have worked with over the last 20 years or so have switched to Apple gear in the last 5 years. I realize that my experience is limited to geeks, but in many companies geeks influence the descisions that less knowlegeable peers make. Careful geek-watching can inform one about future trends in computing.
So from where I'm standing, it looks like Unix geeks are switching to OS X on Apple hardware for home use. At work, in a surprising turn of events, we're looking at buying a bunch of Apple's Xserve gear to build our SAN. Don't know if it'll happen, but the fact that it's being considered is pretty darn exciting.

Re:Is Apple on the offensive (1)

Richard Steiner (1585) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245321)

Not all geeks are Unix/Linux geeks, especially in the hardcore mainframe shops where I've worked. All generalizations are false. :-) And not all mainframers are limited to COBOL.

Although a lot of us are straddling the fence between the mainframe and Unix worlds now, most of the pure Unix folks I actually know are either running Sparcs at home or PCs with a BSD/Linux/Solaris variant, not MacOS X. Some are, but it's a minority yet.

Re:Is Apple on the offensive (-1, Troll)

nagora (177841) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245422)

Most of the hardcore Unix/Linux guys I know and have worked with over the last 20 years or so have switched to Apple gear in the last 5 years.

I find that hard to believe. Certainly, as a Linux user and programmer, OS/X has nothing for me at all. I work with Macs due to my job and I hate them. They're overpriced, flaky, and the GUI is terrible and ugly. The keyboards are crap, the mice next to useless with their one button, and the internal hardware is murder to get fixed when it breaks down. Expansion is something that happens to other people, and support is non-existant. Retail outlets are almost mythical and when you can find one are staffed entirely by wankers who religiously object to the possibility that anything wrong with a Mac could be caused by anything other than the user's semi-malicious incompetence.

It's beyond me why anyone would use OS/X.

TWW

Re:Is Apple on the offensive (2, Funny)

jcr (53032) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245490)

Certainly, as a Linux user and programmer, OS/X has nothing for me at all.

Indeed, the Mac offers none of the sense of accomplishment that comes from chasing down drivers, configuring your kernel, tweaking your system to show your Aw3s0m3 1337 Linux mastery.

As a Mac user and developer, I just have to be satisfied with a reliable system that's got amazing development facilities like Cocoa and Quartz Composer.

-jcr

Re:Is Apple on the offensive (0)

foniksonik (573572) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245229)

I'll second that prediction.

I'll go one further... within 5 years, large offices will have moved to terminals again maybe running an OS like WinCE or maybe Linux but they won't be running Vista or it's progeny.

Small offices on the other hand may end up running Macs as well, since an Intel Mac Mini is going to come down in price and the cost of upgrading to Vista is going to be too much while the cost of not changing from their current systems is still going to be too much in terms of security/lost productivity.

Re:Is Apple on the offensive (4, Informative)

Quevar (882612) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245313)

To 'Ghost' a disk to another, just use Carbon Copy Cloner (http://www.bombich.com/software/ccc.html). It will make an exact bootable copy of your hard disk with all applications and settings. It can even make a disk image out of it so you can put it on the network and install from there. It even has an option to synchronize one disk to another.

I use Carbon Copy Cloner to backup my entire desktop and laptop drives to an external hard drive. This works very well and if something happens, I can simply boot from the external drive and everything is exactly as I had it on the other disk. I've tested it a few times and everything worked exactly as expected. So, the ghosting software you talk about is very easy to do on Macs, unless I am missing some other aspect of what you want to do.

Or, you could use rsync (installed by default) to sync two computers over the network. I use this to sync various things on my laptop and desktop.

Re:Is Apple on the offensive (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15245361)

I do Mac support for a large corporation. Using Apple-supplied tools, we can image and restore a Mac 3 times faster than we can a PC...

Re:Is Apple on the offensive (1)

jcr (53032) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245429)

Does this mean that Apple is ready to go on the offensive and increase its marketshare?

Maybe, but they really need to have a complete set of replacements for the MS office apps to make some serious headway. It would be very easy for the evil empire to just neglect to fix compatibility bugs between Mac and Windows versions, and introduce some serious anti-mac pressure again.

-jcr

This comment target lack of proof-reading. (5, Funny)

Mortice (467747) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245052)

"In one of the ads the PC repeat itself several times because it had to reboot."

"In an other one ... PC is sick because of a virus, while Mac is healthy."

Is the submitter actually a robot manufactured by Apple to demonstrate what happens when you make a language engine out of MS Office's grammar checker?

Re:This comment target lack of proof-reading. (2, Interesting)

Wabbit Wabbit (828630) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245097)

I'd mod you up if I could.

The sick with a virus ad... (2, Insightful)

Kymermosst (33885) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245057)

Just seems to be a challenge to the virus writers. I expect it won't be long now.

Re:The sick with a virus ad... (1)

Utopia (149375) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245254)

You may be right.
Oracle's "Unbreakable. Can't break it. Can't break in" ad tagline did bring in hoard of extra eyes examing its software.

Re:The sick with a virus ad... (2, Insightful)

FryingDutchman (891770) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245510)

Couldn't agree more.

Pointing out how 'unsinkable' your OS is when the only reason you've managed to have such a clean bill of health is due to the fact you haven't held enough market share to warrant attack is about as wise as a fattened lamb pointing out how inedible he is to the den of lions who had previously been feasting on the fetid diseased carcass of the Ballmer.

Furthermore...as much as I support Apple, what they're doing, and encourage competition, seems to me they're satisfaction with their vast growth is getting to their heads. They should have included Steve Jobs with George Clooney's acceptance speech in the "Smug Storm" episode of South Park. They're asking for a big steaming dose of reality.

News report from 2007 (1)

cheaphomemadeacid (881971) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245087)

Apple finally admits that beeing cocky and claiming superiority against viruses has been a major cause for all the new viruses created for mac os x, nearly crippeling the system. In other related news, symantec stocks are on the rise because of a new and exciting market in the Mac OS world

Apple should be honest (2, Insightful)

boxlight (928484) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245094)

I'm a recent Mac switcher, *love* my new iMac. These ads are funny, but Apple should be honest.

This "restart" ad is false advertising -- Windows XP is an extremely stable platform (unless Apple is referring to people who are still using Windows 98 and Windows ME -- but I don't think so).

The entire campaign smacks of Apple's vintage "lemmings" ad which didn't work because it offended their IBM using audience. This new campaign is flat out calling PC users fat dorks. The potential switcher I know are tech savvy cool users, and could potentially be offended by this portrayal.

Apple should spend more time making it easier to switch -- like including a "start menu" equivalent, using the defacto standard "ctrl-c & ctrl-v" type shortcut keys, better windows-style support for right-click instead of always having to use ctrl-click to get a pop-up menu, real windows-style "uninstall" functionality.

I love my Mac, but getting my wife comfortable with the little Mac-isms was like giving her a new car that had the gas and brake pedals backwards.

Drop the contempt for your audience, Apple, and make your computer a more seamless experience for potential switchers.

boxlight

Re:Apple should be honest (1)

pubjames (468013) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245187)

I'm a recent Mac switcher, *love* my new iMac.

I switched a year ago and MS would have to do something wonderful to make me switch back.

These ads are funny, but Apple should be honest.

The ads are cool. Apple are just playing on people's experiences with PCs. The ads wouldn't work if there wasn't truth in them.

Re:Apple should be honest (5, Informative)

Otter (3800) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245188)

Apple should spend more time making it easier to switch -- like including a "start menu" equivalent, using the defacto standard "ctrl-c & ctrl-v" type shortcut keys, better windows-style support for right-click instead of always having to use ctrl-click to get a pop-up menu, real windows-style "uninstall" functionality.

I'll let others flame you about the start menu and shortcut keys (If you want MacOS to behave exactly like Windows, why not just use Windows?) but:

a) Right-clicking should work the same as ctrl-clicking.

b) MacOS doesn't have "windows-style "uninstall" functionality" because uninstalling is trivial.

Re:Apple should be honest (2, Informative)

davidstrauss (544062) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245260)

MacOS doesn't have "windows-style "uninstall" functionality" because uninstalling is trivial.

...except when it's not. See any system utility like a firewall or antivirus. You get a bonus uninstall round!

Re:Apple should be honest (2, Interesting)

boxlight (928484) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245330)

I'll let others flame you about the start menu and shortcut keys (If you want MacOS to behave exactly like Windows, why not just use Windows?) but:

Mac OS is great because it's looks better and feels better than Windows. Just like a Mercedes is better than an Chevy. But send a Chevy driver on a test drive in a Mercedes that has a joystick instead of a steering wheel, and a the gas and brake pedals reversed, and it will not be a happy test drive.

If Apple wants Windows users to switch, they have to stop sticking to their guns on the "Apple way" of doing things -- Command-C instead of Ctrl-C is a perfect example -- and at least offer new users the option of choosing Windows-style key combinations. It's a simple matter of appealing to the pre-conditioned users they want to sell to.

As for the start menu -- Apple did user-switching better than Windows, Apple could do a Start Menu better than windows -- I would *love* for Apple to make a better "start menu" than sits as the left-most Dock icon, or maybe a Dashboard widget. Just because it's in Windows doesn't mean it isn't useful -- and it shouldn't be hard for those Apple geniuses to do it one better.

a) Right-clicking should work the same as ctrl-clicking.

Not always. I right-click on stuff all the time, but don't get the pop-up -- have to ctrl-click. Don't have an example cause I'm not in front of my Mac right now, but there's definate inconsistencies there.

b) MacOS doesn't have "windows-style "uninstall" functionality" because uninstalling is trivial.

Whhoooww! Hold on there chief. It most certainly is NOT! I installed Parallel and Adobe Creative Suite CS 2 on my new Mac, and unintalling was a nightmare! I had to run UNIX commands and hunt down configuration files all over the place to clean that stuff on my Mac.

Many non-trivial applications install system stuff and create directories all over the place. Real "uninstall" support would provide a wizard/assistant that would remove those things for you. Mac software is *surprisely* deficient in this respect.

Still love my Mac,

boxlight

Re:Apple should be honest (1)

MyNameIsEarl (917015) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245370)

What is there to uninstall, there is no registry to muck up. Drag your app to the trash, can't be much easier can it?

Re:Apple should be honest (1)

VolciMaster (821873) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245221)

I thought you uninstalled items by dragging them to the Trash, or have I been missing something?

And I've always seen the right mouse button perform the Ctrl-click option, though I prefer Ctrl-click to right-clck

Re:Apple should be honest (1)

utexaspunk (527541) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245272)

using the defacto standard "ctrl-c & ctrl-v" type shortcut keys

What drives me crazy more than anything about my mac is that the home and end keys don't do what they're supposed to. I have to do command-left arrow or command-right arrow to do those. It wouldn't be a problem, except that I have to use PC's at work. Constantly having to switch back and forth between keyboard shortcut paradigms is a pain in the butt.

Re:Apple should be honest (1)

SpottedKuh (855161) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245302)

Allow me to paraphrase your post:

Apple should make Macs look, behave, and feel exactly like Windows!

Perhaps a little counter-productive, given that one of the reasons many people love Macs after they make the switch is the UI?

Re:Apple should be honest (1)

aaarrrgggh (9205) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245306)

1. Get a two-button mouse. It's the same then.

2. Copy and paste shortcuts are the same- they just have different meanings for ctrl.

3. Macs do need to improve keyboard shortcuts. It drives me batty doing keyboard shortcuts the mac way! There are keyboard shortcuts for menu options, but you use twice as many keys!

Re:Apple should be honest (2, Insightful)

TydalForce (569880) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245307)

If you want a "Start Menu equivalent", open up a Finder window. Find your Applications folder. Drag it into your Dock just beside your trash can. Now, right-click or control-click on it. Boom! Instant menu that you can get quick access to all your applications. And its not as cluttered and useless as the Start menu.


As far as keyboard shortcuts go, Command-C and Command V etc are much easier to hit than Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V. You can hit Command with your thumb and its very easy to thumbCommand. Trust me, it may seem "backwards" at first but once you're used to it you find it much easier. I'm on a PC for 8 hours a day at work, and I hate using CTRL because it slows me down.


You can right-click. Just get a 2 button mouse. It'll work just as you expect.


Do you know how to uninstall an application on the Mac? Drag it to your Trash Can. That's it. Gone.


Hope this helps a bit!

Re:Apple should be honest (1)

ChrisDolan (24101) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245325)

Apple should spend more time making it easier to switch -- like including a "start menu" equivalent, using the defacto standard "ctrl-c & ctrl-v" type shortcut keys, better windows-style support for right-click instead of always having to use ctrl-click to get a pop-up menu, real windows-style "uninstall" functionality.


1) Start menu - Ha ha! Good one!

2) Mac had Cmd-x, Cmd-c, Cmd-v first. MS copied them, but changed it to Ctrl since Windows machines lack a Cmd key.

3) Mac has had full right click support for years for all multi-button mice. If you have the (superb) Mighty Mouse, go to System Preferences -> Keyboard & Mouse and set the right button to behave as a right click.

4) Uninstallers -- Apple has done a terrific job of avoiding the need for an uninstaller for the majority of apps. However, I agree with you about drivers after spending a half hour trying to delete iChatUSB off my machine...

Re:Apple should be honest (1)

stivi (534158) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245335)

Concerning the shortcuts - I would say, that apple has more logical shortcuts than windows: to make computer perform something using keyboard, you press 'Command', that is, you say: 'I command you to do this...' and then press a shortcut for the desired command. You use other modifiers with the command key to have more shortcuts. In windows it is total mess: some shortucts are with Alt, other with Ctrl. I think, Windows should polish shortcuts, not Apple.

I hope you are kidding with the Start menu. It is just a workaround for messy organisation of application files. In OS X you have Applications folder with everything you need. Also, Spotlight is pretty nice for finding apps you do not have in your dock and you do not want to search under Applications folder.

Right mouse button? Have you ever connected a two-button mouse to a mac? It works the same as you expect it to work in windows. Anyway, everything in an application should be doable using only one mouse button. Right-mouse button actions and menus should be used only as shortcuts.

Uninstall? As other mentioned here: grab an application and put it into the trash. You are done. Can it be simplier?

Re:Apple should be honest (1)

EggyToast (858951) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245337)

Since you just switched, I'll give you some tips that I learned when I first got my mac 2 years ago. Maybe at least they'll help your wife overcome some of the initial hurdles:

1. Start Menu. Most people use the Start menu to launch their applications. To do this, all you need to do is drag the Applications folder next to the Trash on the Dock. Then a simple right-click opens it up, similar to Start>Programs. Utilities, like setting up printers and Terminal, are at the bottom in the U section (so Applications>Utilities). For system stuff, it's just the other corner then (the Apple).

2. Hotkeys. Control is OK as a hotkey, but it's unnatural when typing a lot. It forces you to take your hand off the home row and use a finger not known for its dexterity. You'll notice that the apple/command key is right next to the keyboard, so simply slide your [left] thumb over a bit. It's a very natural movement and doesn't require you to lift your hand up. If you're a hunt/peck typist, though, it's just relearning the location, although I'd still recommend using the thumb.

3. Right Click. I don't know which mouse you're using, but every mouse I've plugged into my mac defaults the right click to "control click" and pops up a context menu where applicable.

4. Windows-style uninstall. This would entail using a Windows-style install, which would mean putting lots of random little files in random places. I much prefer Apple's "throw it in the trash like any other file" system, especially since it's smart enough to realize when something's been thrown away and removes references to it in the shell. If you're worried about the little 5k text file left over, well, they're easy to track down and delete as well, since they're usually placed in ~/Library/Preferences.

It took me a little while to get used to OS X, but it's really more an issue of some things just being different. They're not going to win converts by doing everything just like Windows; if anything, the things you point out do a good job of highlighting their differences. People have been using the "quirks" of OS X just fine for years now, and it's a great way to show people that there's more than one way to accomplish the same tasks, and the one you're used to isn't always best.

Re:Apple should be honest (4, Informative)

the phantom (107624) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245375)

...using the defacto standard "ctrl-c & ctrl-v" type shortcut keys...

Why? On a Mac, I can use my thumb to hit the command key (the clover leaf), and use any other finger to hit any other key. It is a very simple reach, and works even on my laptop, where the size of the keyboard limits me to only one command key. Under windows (or Linux, for that matter), the control key requires a pinky finger, and a rather large reach (compared to, say, the shift keys). I much prefer the modifier key right next to the space bar. I am glad that Apple have decided not to change this. And, honestly, it doesn't take that long to get used to a different system, and if you are constantly switching back and forth from one kind of machine to another (I have Windows machines at work, Macs at home), it ceases to cause any confusion after a day or two.

In fact, most of your complaints are fairly trivial, and represent the cost of moving from one OS to another as much as anything else. Why would we need an uninstaller on a Mac? Most, if not all, dependencies are contained in the application bundle. To uninstall a program, move it to the trash. There is no registry to get corrupted, and no .dlls. Why is a Start Menu needed? Open up a Finder window, and you have access to your applications, documents, movies, whatever. If you don't like that, launch applications from the dock. Put aliases (shortcuts) on your desktop. Hell, I suppose you could create a folder full of aliases and put that on the dock. A Start Menu really is not needed -- a couple of days to get used to the OS would likely demonstrate that. As for right-clicking, get a better mouse.

Again, the complaints that you raise seem fairly minor and trivial, and would only really bother people that have been using Windows for a long time. Apple is not really targeting the hardcore Windows market, as far as I can tell. They are trying to target those people who do not have a great deal of computer experience, like the archtypal grandmother, or the computer illiterate English major. These people are not really going to care that the keyboard shortcuts are different (how many of them even know that there are keyboard shortcuts?) or that there is no Start Menu.

Re:Apple should be honest (1)

boxlight (928484) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245502)

Again, the complaints that you raise seem fairly minor and trivial, and would only really bother people that have been using Windows for a long time. Apple is not really targeting the hardcore Windows market, as far as I can tell. They are trying to target those people who do not have a great deal of computer experience, like the archtypal grandmother, or the computer illiterate English major. These people are not really going to care that the keyboard shortcuts are different (how many of them even know that there are keyboard shortcuts?) or that there is no Start Menu.

With respect, you have it completely backwards.

I am the power user and I don't care about learning new keystrokes. I will use the application folder and not care about the start menu.

It is the people who do not have a lot of computer experiene, the casual or novice user, who only know start menus and windows-style keystrokes -- these people are not looking to learn new things, they want to just be able to use the machine out of the box. Like you said, Apple is trying to appeal to those very people, and in order to appeal to them Apple should provide them a system that won't cause them to get frustrated by the little Mac-isms.

It is the hardcore Apple users who insist that the Apple way is the right way and that new users should learn the Apple way. THIS is Apple's downfall in their switch campaign.

boxlight

Re:Apple should be honest (0, Flamebait)

Thrudheim (910314) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245484)

Glad to hear that you like your new iMac, but I disagree with some of your points.

First, I disagree that Apple is showing "contempt" for potential switchers. Instead, the ads highight Apple's strengths in iLife and the problems with Windows that frustrate users the most. In fact, if you watch some of the ads, they clearly say that Windows PCs have their role. Great for running spreadsheets, for instance, but Macs are better at multimedia.

Second, the Start menu is a mess. Apple should not encourage people to rely on it. Just configure the dock with the apps you use the most. Alternatively, if you really want Start-menu like access to apps, just drag the Applications folder into the dock on the right-hand side of the little vertical line next to the trash can. Click and hold on this icon to get access to all apps. Better still, get LaunchBar or Quicksilver to get access to everything with just a couple keystrokes.

Third, Apple should not suddenly change its shortcut key combinations -- many of which have been part of the Mac OS for decades -- to the Windows way just to accomodate switchers. You say that what is Windows is "standard." By that definition of standard, Apple should just do everything that Windows does the same way Windows does. Adjusting to the Mac way of doing things will take some time, but it is just different not "non-standard." Once the key combinations become second-nature, and you use Expose and the application switcher (command-tab) to move between apps, working on the Mac is very efficient.

Fourth, if you want to right-click just get a two-button mouse. They are not expensive and right-clicking works just the same.

Fifth, Windows has an uninstall function because it needs it. Windows installers put all kinds of files all over the place. The Mac OS doesn't, since app files are really containers for all the components (except preference files). This can be really hard for Windows users to believe, but you can just throw the app in the trash. That's it. Why on earth would Apple want to copy Windows in this respect? That would be a huge step backwards.

So I would not ask Apple to court switchers by runing some of the nicer parts of the Mac experience by making them more Windows-like.

Re:Apple should be honest (1)

hey! (33014) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245515)

unless Apple is referring to people who are still using Windows 98 and Windows ME

Apple is clearly targetting home users with this. The contempt for "suits" wouldn't play well with the IT crowd.

Home users are typically several years behind on the OS upgrade curve. Therefore 98 and ME are still fresh in their memories.

Granted -- it isn't strictly truthful to imply current Windows versions are unstable, but this is advertising after all.

Great, mudslinging from Apple. (2, Insightful)

east coast (590680) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245117)

Sorry to say this I'm more impressed with Microsoft telling me they're offering me options ("Where do you want to go today") than I'm impressed with Apple telling me that Microsoft doesn't offer options.

I'm not going to be one of the "I hate Windows so much that I'll..." people who are willing to jump in with both feet to another platform (and a credit card in hand).

Give me a reason to buy Apple, not a reason to leave Windows.

Re:Great, mudslinging from Apple. (1)

TooMuchEspressoGuy (763203) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245366)

I think the parent has stumbled upon a good point.

To draw an analogy, this reminds me of the way Creationists try to draw credibility to their own pet belief system by doing nothing more than trying to disprove evolution. The logical fallacy is the same in both cases: evidence against one thing is not evidence for another.

In other words, evidence that Windows is bad is not evidence that OSX is good. A potential switcher like me (if I were affected by advertising, which I'm not) needs genuine positive reasons to drop the money to switch.

14 reasons from Apple (3, Funny)

Quevar (882612) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245378)

Here's 14 reasons to buy a Mac:
http://www.apple.com/getamac/ [apple.com]

One definite reason would be that you can either run OS X or Windows or Linux - that seems like a lot more choice than only being able to run Windows.

Re:Great, mudslinging from Apple. (5, Insightful)

the phantom (107624) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245495)

Give me a reason to buy Apple, not a reason to leave Windows.

From the commercials:
iLife
plug-and-play peripherals
fewer viruses
ease of use
good reviews in the WSJ

Those seem like reasons. They are not really targeting the geek audience with those reasons, which might be why you don't care. But, to someone like my mother, they seem like very good reasons.

Re:Great, mudslinging from Apple. (1)

Frobozz0 (247160) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245516)

Well, had you watched the commercials or just missed the points, here they are:

1) Less viruses on the mac.
2) Less prone to freezes and crashes.
3) They interoperate with Windows just fine, and hot asian chicks (or was is a Japanese digital camera...)
4) They come bundled with software that's as easy to use as iTunes.
5) They're easier to use.

And contrary to what seems to be flung around, this wasn't an agressively negative ad campaign. They appeared to be friends. Look, the Mac was being nice to his dorky friend. It's not like they were enemies.

Don't get the Macbook Pro... yet (1, Offtopic)

Nick Fury (624480) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245128)

I've got one. It is a very nice machine but it suffers from the strange high pitched whine. It's not bad, just a little irritating. Everyone should have a mac, just wait for the second generation hardware to arrive before getting one.

Re:Don't get the Macbook Pro... yet (1)

pauljlucas (529435) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245419)

Weren't all the problems fixed with the revision D motherboards?

Where's the command to mod advertising campaigns? (0, Troll)

Duds (100634) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245137)

(-1, Troll)

Hmmmm PC not Windows...??? (1)

foniksonik (573572) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245140)

Interesting that they are saying PC not Windows ;-p Apple may be bold but apparently not willing to spell it out. OTOH most consumers associate PC with Windows, so it still gets the message across... but unfortunately is also maligning the rest of the former X86 club (former since now Apple is part of it too...).

Yeah, I'm just assuming that they figure people who know the difference will 'know the difference' and read between the lines.

I foresee some petty flame wars happening in tech rags though..

Re:Hmmmm PC not Windows...??? (1)

flooey (695860) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245365)

Interesting that they are saying PC not Windows ;-p Apple may be bold but apparently not willing to spell it out.

I also thought it interesting that two of the commericals named Microsoft Office by name. I don't know if that was making a little bit of nice with Microsoft or if it was a "Hey, Office works on a Mac, so you can still do all your work", but it was the only product that was mentioned that doesn't come bundled with OS X or Windows.

i dont care if he is a PC (1)

thesupermikey (220055) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245145)

John Hodgman is my hero and intellectual better

I think it's good marketing (2, Insightful)

johnfink (810028) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245153)

Apple doesn't aim to market to people who know what they are doing with a PC (I use the term in its original context, Personal Computer, without any bias to one OS or another). They are aiming for the less tech-savvy user, and hoping to create the (not entirely incorrect) impression that Mac's are easier to use than pretty much any other OS based machine on the market.

Re:I think it's good marketing (1)

Jeff DeMaagd (2015) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245481)

They are aiming for the less tech-savvy user, and hoping to create the (not entirely incorrect) impression that Mac's are easier to use than pretty much any other OS based machine on the market.

Mac OS X and its software can and does have some issues, but I haven't run into maintainance issues with it that were on the level of what I've had with Windows or Linux.

John Hodgman (1, Informative)

jacoplane (78110) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245165)

In case you're wondering who the guy on the left is, it's John Hodgman [wikipedia.org] from the Daily Show.

*sigh* (4, Funny)

Descalzo (898339) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245211)

The thing that struck me about the ad I saw last night was the way the PC and Mac users were dressed up. I feel like I am not cool enough to own any Apple products. The story of my life, sadly.

Ever notice how Macheads never comb their hair? It must be like buying a Volkswagen.

'Cool' guy? (1)

qodfathr (255387) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245248)

Since when is Warren Cheswick cool?

Re:'Cool' guy? (1)

qodfathr (255387) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245285)

(That was Justin Long's name on the TV show 'Ed' -- sorry if I went a little too Dennis Miller obscure on that one.)

The problem is... (1)

Jugalator (259273) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245250)

As soon as people tries to install an OS designed for generic hardware (Windows, Linux), they risk running into both driver problems, stability problems, or both, and suddenly they may get "that crappy computer" again, running on Mac hardware and Boot Camp.

As usual, running on hardware the OS is designed for is both a blessing and a curse, and most PC users I know are fully aware of what a Mac would offer and why they won't use it. But there's probably large masses of people who simply use Windows at home for Outlook, IE, and Word, and they could of course benefit from taking a look on a Mac. Or Linux with Ubuntu, if they want to get away much cheaper and happen to use supported hardware.

funny but outdated jokes... (1, Insightful)

AnXa (936517) | more than 8 years ago | (#15245345)

Those adverts are acctually quite funny. They joke about the current situation of the Windows PCs... But how long? Vista is peeping around the corner... And since I am a Debian Linux user I didn't understand why they attack the PC's so directly. Mac is also a Personal Computer aka PC, no matter how they will twist or put it to their ads. Mac OSX with Intel platform is a hi-security risk because PPC was a platform no virus makers where even targetting. Now they have ability to attack macs too. No wonder that mac has a one to five known viruses right now.. when previously there where none...
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