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Social Consequences and Effects of RFID Implants?

Cliff posted more than 8 years ago | from the chips-in-my-head dept.

531

kramdam asks: "Even with all the talk about privacy and security, there seems to be a growing community of people who are implanting themselves with RFID chips. Being a developer myself, I am intrigued about building applications and solutions that will open my doors, unlock my car, log me on to my computer and control home automation. I'm seriously considering jumping into this head first, being on the bleeding edge, and going with an implant. I have looked at resources like Mikey Sklar's site, and Amal Graafstra's site, since they are two pioneers on this subject. For research, I have started TaggedLife to document my own journey. I was wondering what the Slashdot community think about this. What do you think are the social, security, privacy, and health risks associated with this? What are the pluses? Would you do it?"

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531 comments

Tag yourself with 666 while your at it... (2, Funny)

mrraven (129238) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259748)

And no I'm not a Christian fundie but implants creep me out to the max. Frist post?

Re:Tag yourself with 666 while your at it... (1)

Mutilated1 (836311) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259810)

Yeah its seems pretty creepy. I'm not worried about any of that number of the beast nonsense, but having an RFID would be the end of privacy - just a matter of time before anyone with the gear could track you wherever. And I don't think it would do all to prevent identity theft that people think it would, well perhaps "identity" theft - but who needs to steal your identity when they can monitor where you are and steal you blind the old fashioned way. Just not a good idea.

Re:Tag yourself with 666 while your at it... (1)

mrraven (129238) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259961)

I'm not really worried about 666 and his noodly appendage either, it was a joke son.

Re:Tag yourself with 666 while your at it... (2, Funny)

thealsir (927362) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259969)

Does our flying-666-monster have one noodly appendage, or three?

1984 (4, Insightful)

mrraven (129238) | more than 8 years ago | (#15260023)

I am however worried about ubiquitous tracking. How can that possible be good? Britain for example wants to track EVERY car on the roads and then store the data for 2 years.

"Britain is to become the first country in the world where the movements of all vehicles on the roads are recorded. A new national surveillance system will hold the records for at least two years.

Using a network of cameras that can automatically read every passing number plate, the plan is to build a huge database of vehicle movements so that the police and security services can analyse any journey a driver has made over several years."

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article 334686.ece [independent.co.uk]

Don't they make the kiddes read 1984 anymore? How much more blatant do things have to get before there is some sort of real effective reaction?
Oh I forgot it's for the children, and against the terrorists and pirates, nevermind.

When I read stuff like this, off the grid survivalist/back to the land hippies don't sound tin foil hat crazy, they sound like smart forerunners of an underground resistance to tyranny.

Re:Tag yourself with 666 while your at it... (1)

Ohreally_factor (593551) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259967)

but having an RFID would be the end of privacy

Nah, that's what metal foil clothing is for. Just wear a long sleeve tin foil shirt and roll up the sleeve when you want to use your RFID.

Personally, I think this guy is just trying to be weird for the sake of being weird, or maybe he's got some plan to become famous for 15 seconds.

Re:Tag yourself with 666 while your at it... (1)

bsartist (550317) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259814)

I was thinking along the same lines. Well, almost the same lines. I was thinking it'd be great fun to creep out the fundies. A bar code tattoo on the forehead or right hand would be better though - especially if it was a real UPC code that would show up as "666" if you scanned it at checkout.

Re:Tag yourself with 666 while your at it... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15259931)

That would be funny, but then again, you're a dick.

Well... (5, Interesting)

borisborf (906678) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259753)

Inplantable RFID tags are just not for me. Sounds a little to, well, end-times-ish. I would rather have an RFID watch or something. Sure, it could be stolen, but what about a central control website where if it was stolen, I just deactivate the code from it and put in the code for my new watch. Problem solved.

Exactly - why implant an RFID device? (4, Interesting)

maillemaker (924053) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259791)

Since it seems security devices are always being compromised, I'd hate to have to cut myself open every time one of these things had been likewise compromised.

I agree - an RFID watch would be much better - perhaps an RFID watch that can identify the person wearing it biometrically, even.

Steve

Re:Exactly - why implant an RFID device? (1)

mikesd81 (518581) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259832)

The only way that would work is if the watch would work ONLY for that person. Otherwise that's alot of info prime taking for a pick pocket or someone where you need to take off jewlery.

Re:Exactly - why implant an RFID device? (5, Funny)

malex23 (645752) | more than 8 years ago | (#15260051)

Or, depending on the size of the chip, it could be kept on something harder to snatch... say, a nipple ring.

Re:Exactly - why implant an RFID device? (5, Funny)

Ohreally_factor (593551) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259908)

I'm surprised no one has come to market with a Bluetooth tooth. I know I'd get one, just for the grin factor.

Re:Exactly - why implant an RFID device? (1)

zippthorne (748122) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259943)

Someone did think of a cell phone tooth a while back...

Ah, here it is: Mobile Phone in Your Teeth! [slashdot.org]

Re:Well... (1)

utlemming (654269) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259815)

Asside from the end-time-ish issues, which I share, I have a huge issue with having a permanent solution like an inbedded RFID tag. Why on earth would I want anybody with an RFID reader to figure out who I am. Besides, what happens if a guy reads your tag and then does a verbatium bit copy of what is read off your tag to another tag? Does that mean you need a new one. There is a post below which suggests a watch. I would go for that. Because at least with something detatchable you can always just walk away and be done with it. Taking a razor and slicing my arm open to get rid of the tag is just not cool for when you want to be annonymous.

Re:Well... (1)

bsartist (550317) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259850)

Taking a razor and slicing my arm open to get rid of the tag is just not cool for when you want to be annonymous.

You *already* need to take yourself apart to foil biometric ID. You'd need to get rid of your fingertips, retinas, and all your teeth, to begin with. The tiny cut that's used to insert and/or extract a chip is trivial - I've cut myself worse than that in the kitchen.

Re:Well... (1)

Mr. Slippery (47854) | more than 8 years ago | (#15260035)

You *already* need to take yourself apart to foil biometric ID. You'd need to get rid of your fingertips, retinas, and all your teeth, to begin with.

I don't broadcast my fingerprints (in fact I could wear gloves, or coat my fingertips with glue to mask them), nor do I tend to stick my eye up to retinal scanners or bite into things to leave teeth marks when I'm out and about in public. RFIDs, on the other hand, can be read at some distance.

Re:Well... (5, Insightful)

dgatwood (11270) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259871)

There are no real advantages to such a scheme and plenty of disadvantages. For example:

  • As soon as the technology improves, you have to get surgery to replace it with one that isn't spoofable.
  • There's the possibility of infection or other negative reaction to the device.
  • We have no idea what the long-term impact of these devices inside the human body could be.
  • And of course, there's the big one: instead of stealing someone's wallet to steal money from them, thieves will now start cutting off someone's hand---sort of a reverse medieval thing.

Indeed, for me---and apologies in advance for my language---I believe the answer is not so much "no", but rather, "hell fucking no."

Re:Well... (1)

bsartist (550317) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259892)

Inplantable RFID tags are just not for me. Sounds a little to, well, end-times-ish.

Revelations is pretty specific about that mark - it's supposedly going to be on the forehead or right hand. So if that's your concern, just get your chip somewhere else.

DOD Approved, NSA Tested... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15259754)

and preferred by 9 of 10 Homeland Security agents.

Just remember to register your identity number with the Federal Government so we'll be able to associate your RFID with you wherever you go. Thanks!

The MIB.

Why? (4, Interesting)

neostorm (462848) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259758)

Why exactly do you need an implant for this? This reads more as an attempt at resistance-numbing the public to the concept of implants themselves, because franky there's no viable reason you can't have all the features you listed in your keychain or wallet instead. I don't see the threat of lost or stolen hardware to be worth it.

Re:Why? (1)

Bieeanda (961632) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259891)

I think this reads more as an attempt to drive traffic to his site. And if it isn't, it's a pretty loud cry for help. Just think, this could be the next stage in the evolution of cutting.

Re:Why? (2, Funny)

Ohreally_factor (593551) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259930)

Overheard at the coffee bar, circa 2008:

"Dude, you got tagged? That is soooo emo!"

Re:Why? (1)

bsartist (550317) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259939)

Next stage? More like the stage before last - these chips aren't even visible except for a really tiny scar. There are people [bodymod.org] who have implanted stuff into themselves until their penii look like sex toys. (Fair warning - the "extreme" section of that site is... well... extreme. Don't go there unless you're prepared to view examples of "modified" genitals of both genders. You have been warned!)

Re:Why? (1)

Ohreally_factor (593551) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259990)

Well, at least now I know how my girlfriend got a sore throat.

Did you also see the section of fuck-ups [bodymod.org] ? Yeeesh.

Re:Why? (1)

Frosty Piss (770223) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259903)

And indeed this type of thing already exists. I carry a card in my wallet that allows me to do things in my office building like use the elevator after hours when it is "locked down" for those without a key. I assume if they arn't tracking my location in the building, they could. It's a secure area...

But this technology could as well be used for "good" rather than "evil", to do the things that the Submitter is suggesting he wants to do...

What no-one seems to have considered so far... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15259948)

Is that this guy is doing it ALL himself.
He's not conforming to Big Brother, no Nazis are registering him on a long list of potential experiment candidates.

The whole RFID-implant issue has been around for YEARS, even DECADES before the technology became commonplace, and the concept of police-state controlling the populace through information for CENTURIES... and everyone is going to have an opinion on it.

This guy, however, is outside the system. He is a developer working on homebrew projects and, really, if he uses ANY sort of encryption at all, since it will be used on homebrew applications only, the information contained on the chip can be completely useless to anyone else, the government, RFID wireless hackers, anyone.

Re:Why? (1)

emjoi_gently (812227) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259956)

The only reason I can imagine for this, is that you always have it on you. It's never forgotten at home, you never have to remember to put it on in the morning.

So it's for forgetful people.

As someone said, it brings up the issue of upgrading it when inevitably it becomes old tech every few years.

So... why not install it into a pair of stylish earrings, or a "rebellious" nose, eyebrow or bellybutton ring?

Re:Why? (1)

sleppy1 (903712) | more than 8 years ago | (#15260067)

Of course there's always the _increased_ risk of lost or stolen body parts. Why I will personally never go with fingerprint or retinal key devices.

Me: "It's a fingerprint keyed lock you'll never get the key from me!!"

Crook: "We'll have to do it the hard way..." (Gets out Lorena Bobbitt scissors and eyes my thumb meaningfully)

Google Ads (1)

foundme (897346) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259761)

You can also click on the google ads you see at the top of the pages.

I thought Google forbids click solicitation like this?

No where to run, No where to hide... (1)

im_thatoneguy (819432) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259764)

... but that's just me, I'm sure you'll be fine. :)

Seriously though. In this day in age unless I give up my credit card, internet account and cell phone I just have to come to grips with the fact that people will be able to track me. The government can find me. Thieves can steal my identity. Why shouldn't I at least benefit from this lack of privacy.

All or nothing, I wouldn't have it any other way. Chip me up.

I salute you in your quest to be boldly public.

Re:No where to run, No where to hide... (1)

TubeSteak (669689) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259989)

Thieves can steal my identity. Why shouldn't I at least benefit from this lack of privacy.

All or nothing, I wouldn't have it any other way. Chip me up.
Getting your identity stolen isn't the same as getting your possesions stolen.

This guy wants his chip to unlock his house & open up his car.

Unless his RFID is somehow immune to a basic replay attack, it won't take much for someone to rob him blind.

RFID chips (2)

hardburlyboogerman (161244) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259769)

Sorry,but there is no way in hell I would EVER allow one of those put in.Mark of the beast..Government and corporations are NOT gonna be able to track my every movement.If it makes them nervous,good.It'll keep the bastards on their toes.

Re:RFID chips (1)

slarshdot (211836) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259857)

NEWS FLASH!!
They pretty much already can!

If your not doing anything wrong, what have you got to worry about.
Do you think your government really gives a crap about u?

WTF (5, Insightful)

robogun (466062) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259770)

How about skipping the implant and using the keys like normal human beings. Oh I get it, CNN doesn't interview normal human beings. No way I'm pulling the chip out of my BMW key and implanting it into my body because I want to get into my car 0.001 second faster. /no tattoos or piercings, either

Re:WTF (3, Funny)

lancelet (898272) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259910)

But... my cat already has an RFID microchip! Oh no... don't tell me he's cooler than me. I mean, he's already more popular with women.

Re:WTF (1)

Ohreally_factor (593551) | more than 8 years ago | (#15260001)

Also, it would harder to show off your BMW key ring, you poseur!

=)

Privacy (1)

umbrellasd (876984) | more than 8 years ago | (#15260040)

Well, if you're worried it might compromise your privacy, don't be. It will not be long until cameras are small enough and ubiquitous enough (probably mobile, too) that you can be photographed and identified in any public area (and probably many private ones, too) by face recognition software with access to the population's vital statistics. It doesn't take RFID to compromise privacy if that is the way society is leaning, and it's only marginally easier with a chip. In fact, it's probably less useful with RFID because of the limited range. Camera recognition has far greater range.

As far as convenience, I doubt you get much of a win here, either, because you need support from all the industries that provide identification services or devices. Well...if you just want to automate your car and home doors...you can add the necessary support yourself, but how useful is that really? Wouldn't the real value be "one RFID works everywhere"? You pay at a boutique, it scans the RFID. You go to a ball game, they scan the RFID, verify you purchased tickets online and in you go. Etc.

If it's going to really simplify things, it's got to be widespread. And it isn't right now. But again. Even if it was, I don't think it's much of a privacy issue. People with money and power already know whatever they want to know about you anyway, :-). If the FBI suspects you are a terrorist, you bet they can get into your life right quick and figure out where you spend your money and what you do with your time. If they don't get enough from your bank records, they can just follow you around if they are so keen. Sure there are steps to make it harder for them, but average citizens near population centers don't take those steps...and for the most part that's because they don't need to.

Not yet, anyway.

You are a problem! (1)

Yaa 101 (664725) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259781)

Trouble is that people like you are spoiling things for the rest of us in the long run giving politicians argument to make this mandatory.

I am not religous but agree totally with the fear of the beast that religious people refer to.

Re:You are a problem! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15259794)

You said it better than I could. The pioneers in this field are bumbling fools for going down this path. What is an extra two seconds to open a door with a set of keys? Plus, Mercedes and Lexus already have technology that opens car doors with RF proximity detection. Why do I need to implant it into my skin?

Re:You are a problem! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15259899)

Wait, your not religous, but you are afraid of the beast wtf is wrong with you why the hell would you believe in the best if you don't believe in the rest of the Bible? I mean seriously pick one of the good comforting parts to believe in, not something taht damns you until you convert. If you don't believe in God fine that's your choice but then don't believe in his damnation of you. It's just stupid. If you aren't religious then live it the fuck up cause you've got nothing after you die, so don't live in fear of a god you don't belive in.

Re:You are a problem! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15260013)

The 666 thing??...got me...the mark is just something that is, 1 required by the world, 2 you need it to buy and sell anything, and 3 if you take the mark, you dont convert, there is no turning back. Those who take the mark whatever it is. The chips or other, do not repent / convert to God. its done. your damned.

bible says dont take it. And if you are on earth at that time, you will die for refusal of the mark, but better to die than to take the mark.

The Beast (1, Insightful)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259921)

And well you should fear the Beast ... because he is us.

Fuck that... (1)

Vegeta99 (219501) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259783)

Fuck that.

I don't need a fuckin' implant. Give me a credit-card sized ID, like my old apartment complex had. If I need to, I can break it in half and chuck it in the river. The only thing under my skin that wasnt there from birth will be tattoo ink, thank you very much.

Re:Fuck that... (1)

Super Dave Osbourne (688888) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259848)

And if the ink contains radio active isotopes, of say some easily ID'ed radiation level? Or say when doing the tatoo the guy who happens to be short on money this month decides to take the extra 200 from some dude visiting the shop yesterday, impregnates you with something like a chip or even some nanotech tools? I mean, at some point it makes no sense at all to let anyone touch ya, hospital staff included. Its a tough call where to draw the line, and for each person it is their individual choice. Mine, never let anyone insert anything into or onto my body, certainly not for decorative purposes. However, the art on you, it worth a look. Post a photo of your work, hoping here it is not a heartogram :)

Re:Fuck that... (1)

Mr. Slippery (47854) | more than 8 years ago | (#15260065)

Or say when doing the tatoo the guy who happens to be short on money this month decides to take the extra 200 from some dude visiting the shop yesterday, impregnates you with something like a chip or even some nanotech tools?

RFID chips are too large to be inserted via a tattoo needle, and are placed deeper into the flesh than ink. Nanotech on such a level has not yet been developed, and I assume that defensive nanotech would be available.

And if enough radioactive ink had been used in one of my tattoos to allow some sort of practical tracking, I'd be dead of the radiation poisoning by now. (If someone wanted to just flat-out kill me, there are much less complicated ways.)

I have nothing to hide (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15259785)

And neither do you, unless you are a criminal.

The benefits of tagging everybody with RFID chips are innumerable. Pedophiles will be caught, murderers can be tracked down, rapists will no longer get off. If you are worried about your wife you can check on her whereabouts, is she stuck in traffic? Still at work? You will feel secure. Stores will be better able to track traffic patterns and can lay out products more efficiently saving you and me time at the store.

Honestly, I don't understand why there are so many objections to RFID implants. We saw how useful knowing exactly where people were in Star Trek (granted it's fiction, but isn't most of our science now from science fiction?) Think of the one draw back to communicators: they could get stolen and you wouldn't be able to get in contact with the person you needed to.

Luddites will bay but current- and forward-thinkers will welcome RFID implants with open arms.

Re:I have nothing to hide (1)

jx100 (453615) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259820)

Excellent troll, sir.

One must appreciate the irony of claiming to have nothing to hide while hiding behind an anonymous name.

Re:I have nothing to hide (1)

Bieeanda (961632) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259876)

You do realize that unregistered people can post to Slashdot, don't you?

Re:I have nothing to hide (1)

Nataku564 (668188) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259822)

s/current- and forward-thinkers/stupid people/g

Stupid people will believe that the persons in control of the RFID stuff are pure in their intentions, and that the system will not be abused.

Re:I have nothing to hide (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15259829)

Pedophiles will be caught, murderers can be tracked down, rapists will no longer get off.

Ah, the good ol' "Won't somebody think of the children?" defense.

Tell me, how will this implant allow you to catch a pedophile, when it's probably the guy you're trusting to watch your kid? Most of the time, it's NOT a stranger. You KNOW exactly where both of them are.

Here, let me rephrase a few things.

Political dissidants will be caught, Rebels will be tracked down, Scapegoats will no longer get off on "Reasonable Doubt" when their immutable movement logs have been forged.

Re:I have nothing to hide (5, Funny)

ampathee (682788) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259846)

I have nothing to hide
by Anonymous Coward

Nice.

Re:I have nothing to hide (3, Insightful)

YrWrstNtmr (564987) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259983)

Nothing to hide? May we install cameras in your bedroom and bathroom?

You did say nothing, right?

You need to implant this because...? (2, Insightful)

rebootconrad (836537) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259787)

What is the need to implant something like this? You would be equally well suited in all those tasks to carry an unmarked gray card in your wallet with an RFID chip in it. I suppose it just seems cool and bleeding edge to want to mutilate your body with one of these things...

When the Jones have them... (5, Insightful)

Super Dave Osbourne (688888) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259789)

I certainly won't even consider it. Nazi Germany comes to mind, marking folks for reasons of ID'ing them for whatever reason is not a good idea. SS is another thing that creeps me out, a system of identification, now illegally used all the time to limit people's freedoms. Business all the time limit doing business with someone if they don't provide a SS, yet that is illegal. When will it come down to the same with a RFID? I suspect sooner than later, especially if the government gets involved in the process, and it already has... FDA anyone?

Geez, I wonder what could go wrong (1)

Freaky Spook (811861) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259790)

1. Innocent human going about their daily business

2. Implantable RFID tag

3. ???

4. Profit.

Carry it? (4, Insightful)

jbbernar (41291) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259798)

You could just carry the tag. Or wear it. Would that be too hard?

Re:Carry it? (4, Interesting)

udoschuermann (158146) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259902)

That's right. Implanting the RFID tag robs you of the option of leaving it home when you really don't care to have it around and be trackable, unless your real intention is to explore the psychological implications of being robbed of that choice and having to learn to live with yet another freedom abridged (by free will, no less... how twisted is that?)

I just can't do it (1)

Odocoileus (802272) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259805)

Laugh all you want, call me stupid or whatever, but I can't get past that little mark of the beast thing.

Re:I just can't do it (1)

JimXugle (921609) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259883)

Yeah. I'm NEVER getting electronically tagged.

"He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666."

I don't see the appeal (4, Funny)

Colonel Panic (15235) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259806)

It's like saying "Homeland Security, here I am! Track my every move!"

RFID in passports is a dangerous idea anyway (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15259808)

In the countries considering RFID (US and many more, unfortunately), the governments' thinking with respect to RFID seems to be flawed in many ways:
  • They (incorrectly to their own knowledge) deny implications of RFID (in passports or otherwise) for the bearer's personal safety
  • They want to force RFID chips inside passports
  • Then they promise to shield it so the passport needs to be opened anyway - but could still be identified as e.g. a US one even when closed, and potentially still be read out with special (i.e. simply more powerful and/or sensitive) equipment, despite the apparent perception of security
  • Unlike with optical reading, where the document can simply be put out of sight, the bearer has no way of knowing whether and when an RFID shield actually works
  • Why pretend that only governments (or "the good guys" in general) would be able to procure RFID readers? This technology is not rocket science, and it could be every thug's dream come true (especially as the European Central Bank even seems to consider putting it into their money) - so "finally" for the nastier elements of society, remote assessment of who might be a "promising" victim e.g. for abduction, robbery or worse becomes possible
So there is always certain inconvenience -if not danger- to the bearer, but not a single valid reason for embedding RFID into a passport: If it needs to be opened anyway, and faster machine-readability than with the current (already standardized) printed text is required, a simple printed barcode would do, at much greater reliability. Make no mistake, if RFID is enforced even though it does not have any benefit in the proposed application, there have to be ulterior motives for its use - then, however, it is no conspiracy theory to suggest that future mischief is implied in this scenario.

SCIENTOLOGY IS A SCAM.

Re:RFID in passports is a dangerous idea anyway (1)

Half-Baked (771927) | more than 8 years ago | (#15260032)

Why pretend that only governments (or "the good guys" in general)
are you implying that the government is "the good guys"?

Just a little stick... (4, Funny)

ndykman (659315) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259811)

I think hardware upgrades should not involve needles, scapels and sutures. Call me crazy.

pluses minuses (3, Insightful)

mikesd81 (518581) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259824)



  • Pluses
* You're in a car accident or you collapse and you have to go to the hospital and they need a medical history.
* You're child is lost and they need to find his address/phone number (this sounds incredibally pet like, I know. But the kid should be allowd to have it turned off/removed @ age 18 or younger if parents consent)

  • Minuses
* Let's say someone finds a way to sniff the signal, and can open your car/house what have you
* You want to take a job in the covert business..
* Anyone can track you
* If this takes off and business impliment it and you don't want to do it then you can't buy goods and what not. I personally would never do this. It's just wrong in sooo many ways, religiously and ethically.

Re:pluses minuses (2, Insightful)

YrWrstNtmr (564987) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259963)

But the kid should be allowd to have it turned off/removed @ age 18 or younger if parents consent)

Once there is a generation or two that have grown up with them...they will see it as normal, and quite possibly won't want to have it turned off/taken out. And also...those 'kids' don't stay kids. They grow up to be politicians.

Medical History (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15259988)

There are other ways to supply that. Anyone with a serious allergy or medical condition will already be wearing an SOS pendant/bracelet that (so long as it stays attached to your body) can be used by trained medical staff.

why implant? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15259842)

I'd much rather go with something on a keychain. That way it would be a lot less painful if the world was taken over be a fascist government and you had to suddenly get rid of it and run away. As long as you could deactivate it in the event of theft or loss, like a credit card, I don't think it would be much of a problem.

this on the same day as (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15259847)

"laptops used to steal cars"
c'mon folks - were geeks, lets capitolize!

Identity Fraud (1)

PBPanther (47660) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259858)

Make sure you get one with strong cryptography.

AFAIK most RFID tags are just glorified bar codes which tell you their number. If you are serious about implanting it somewhere then you need to make absolutely sure that no one can get access by spoofing your particular tag.

Personally I would choose not ot be tagged unless I was totally in control of when it could be accessed.

The next 5 years of slashdot, courtesy of IRC... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15259859)

<Alias> hmm... weird moment
<Alias> The first time you hear a new word and know it's gunna take off and you'll be sick of it in 5 years, but it will hang around a long time
<DrForr> "Web 2.0"?
<Alias> Like Ajax, for Blog
<Alias> or
<Alias> And todays word, "tagged"
<Alias> As a description for people with implanted RFID tags
<Alias> "Are you tagged?" etc
<Alias> And of course there'll be taggers.com
<Alias> Where you can play all new types of games, in the same way geocaching was invented
<DrForr> www.stalkersrus.com
<Alias> And in another year, we'll hear about orientagging
<Alias> Orienteering, but using tags
<Alias> So you can do it any time you like... or something
<DrForr> One of these days I'll get around to creating www.amitouristornot.com.
<Alias> And you'll be able to buy stuff from taggear.com
<Alias> Which will go under 2 years later when amazon undercuts them
<Alias> And the new sport of either (tag sniping|tagnetting)
--> inferno (~inferno@modemcable092.66-130-66.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #perl
<Alias> Trying to see who you can grab with your directional antenna
<DrForr> Naah, ham people'll call it taghunting first (foxhunting)
<Alias> yeah!
<Alias> You know, we should register the domain
<Alias> You can upload the people you take
<Alias> And see where they've been on a google map over time
--> crab (~ams@61.246.80.158) has joined #perl
<Alias> And of course they'll map the most-travelled taggers
<DrForr> Don't forget the Ajax-enabled trophy room.
<Alias> Linked into MySpace!
<Alias> or better, LiveJournal!
<Alias> In fact, what a great tagnetting system
<Alias> A monitor in a shop window with a tag scanner
<DrForr> Or even better, DiggMyJournal 2.0!
<Alias> And as it see's you it pulls your user photo from DiggJournal and puts your face in the shop window
<Alias> So of course, the hot new accessory will be wide-band watches to provide some basic Faraday-ish protection again being hunted
<Alias> And of course, it will be the end of paintball as we know it
<DrForr> Hmm, they already make underwear with silver mesh to cut down on irradiating genitalia...
<Andy> "they"
<Andy> Bob's Silver Mesh Underwear, Inc.
<DrForr> The same people that make UnderArmor, I think.
<Alias> And finally, the 80s metallic fashions will be back in!
<mako132_> mesh underwear doesn't sound good for us hairy folks

Mod parent Offtopic! ;) (1)

Vorondil28 (864578) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259996)

Please mod the parent Offtopic: they were discussing tagging in #perl !!!

Easily cloned (2, Informative)

jack_n_jill (642554) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259885)

Passive RFID tags are easily cloned. Someone standing near you can scan your tag and have a clone. Takes about two seconds. You might as well leave the keys in your car and all your doors unlocked. There is zero security.

Re:Easily cloned (1)

headkase (533448) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259991)

I can't belive some idjit modded you down. Come on people, RFID is not magic - it just emits a number when pulsed with radio waves. Have yourself a RFID reader and you will have the key to whatever was locked up with that particular implant. Reminds me of a previous RFID discussion a while back where someone said RFID would be good helping banks keep track of money and detect counterfeit bills. Then someone else pointed out that a RFID enabled mugger would just keep walking up to people until his hacked-together illegal reader told him who was worth it to rob.
Again, the parent poster should not have been modded down.

Breast implants (2, Insightful)

Turn-X Alphonse (789240) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259890)

Remember how the early breast implants were all "bleeding edge" and awesome? Then we found out a few years later they may oh.. kill you? Same thing here I suspect. The people who decide to "be first" quite often find out 5-10 years later it harmed the body quite alot..

Now maybe it's just me but we hear a lot of stories about cancer being connected to various signals from things like mobile phones or microwaves. The RFID technology is still rather young and we don't know if it will have any sort of effect like this on the human body. Now would you implant a cell phone in your face with the current warnings?

You basicly sound either extremely lazy or just trying to be cool.. Neither of which is good for your health long term. Sit down and think about the next decade, consider what may or may not happen, how much it will cost and all these important things. Because once you've got it done it maybe too later to reverse it or any side effects you get.

Re:Breast implants (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15259918)

The RFID technology is still rather young and we don't know if it will have any sort of effect like this on the human body

Yeah, actually, we do know, you howling dumbass. RFID chips do not transmit until they are interrogated by an external transmitter. The resulting RF exposure is about what you'd get from a lightning strike a half-mile away.

bleeding edge? (1)

mmmiiikkkeee (930217) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259895)

"i'm seriously considering jumping into this head first, being on the bleeding edge, and going with an implant"

i guess he will bleed when the docors cut him open to do the implant... is that what he ment by bleeding edge??

Not that I don't enjoy the thought... (2, Funny)

Runefox (905204) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259906)

... Of having a small bump under my skin that sends out radio waves when close to a transponder, but I'd rather have it on a keychain or in a cellular phone - And of course, I'd rather have it used only in the situations I want it used in.

Of course, anyone with the money to implement this kind of thing should probably just give it to me instead. I'll open your doors the old fashioned way, with no need for a costly renovation or painful RFID implant! Yours for just $200,000 tax-free per year. As an added bonus, I'll even chew your food for you! What value for the price! Act now! I'm not sold in stores, and quantities are limited!

The guy seriously needs to get a life. (1)

liftphreaker (972707) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259915)

This guy spends his life blogging about how excited he is in the process of getting an implant. Sad. I pity the character. He really needs to get a life...oh wait, he doesn't want one. He's already part of the matrix.

Why not an RFID key? (1)

killjoe (766577) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259937)

And RFID key or a card would accomplish the same thing. Why surgically implant one on yourself. At worst you are asking people to carve you up because they want to steal your car instead of just taking your keys or your wallet.

Life imitates art (2, Informative)

digitalhermit (113459) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259946)

It seems that this is one of those cases where the crazy science fiction authors have pegged it.

On the one hand, there's this notion that crime will be a thing of the past because at any moment we can see where everyone is. Want to go hiking and then swimming and don't want to carry around a wallet? No problem since every store can immediately verify your ID and credit as you enter the building. Super conveniet. When you step in your car it will automatically adjust the seats, tune your 6 presets, adjust the volumes, load your phone number list into the car phone, queue your MP3s. Online shopping will be a breeze since your computer will have scanners to verify your ID point-to-point. Identity theft? No longer possible. And crime will be down. Want to figure out who graffitied a wall? Just check the perimeter logs and find the ID. Want to see who should/shouldn't be in a building? Check the entrance and hallway logs. After all, if you've got nothing to hide, why should you worry?

Then there's that other side... No implant? Then no credit for you. No purchases, no vending machines, no access to the school. Or maybe it will be an onerous process... Fill out a form, wait a day or two. In the clubs the twenty-somethings will politely turn away when you bring out *cash* to pay for a drink. What sort of freak pays with cash anymore?

But more than likely we'll accept the intrusions into our privacy because it'll be do damned convenient. We pay for our groceries and medications with credit cards, shop online for books (ohmygod!) with credit cards, attend subversive movies such as Jarhead or Fahrenheit 911 or Narnia and pay with credit cards, we book hotels, rent cars to travel to Omaha and Key West and pay with credit cards... RFID is just the next logical step.

(I just saw Gattaca so I'm in that sort of mood)

Security through obscurity (1)

eander315 (448340) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259951)

social, security, privacy, and health risks associated with this? I say do it. Privacy/security shouldn't be a problem for the time being, as there aren't that many RFID readers out there, and as long as no one knows what is attached to that ID, I can't see how it can be useful to anyone but you. I don't see any social impact either, aside from anyone who might be freaked out by your lights turning on and off as you walk from room to room in your house. I'm not qualified to say anything about the health risks, but I think that might be cause for worry.

Frankly, I think your biggest problem will be functionality. There's a very good chance you're going to have this thing implanted inside you, and it isn't going to work the way you envisioned. What's the point of having the lights turn on when you walk in the door if you have to repeatedly wave your implanted arm in front of the RFID sensor on the wall where the light switch used to be? Being on the bleeding edge is fun until you discover the bugs. But then, that's part of the fun of the bleeding edge.

Clearly (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15259952)

You're an idiot

What part of (0, Flamebait)

jroyale (969238) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259959)

NO FUCKING WAY

are you having trouble understanding?

Morbid Identity Theft (1)

ShadowCloset (721053) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259968)

So, let's get a bit morbid here, then, shall we? Today, identity theft is as simple as stealing someones wallet. Fine. But if we all get our nice RFID implants and all the doors, cars and bank accounts we own open up in our very presence, hmmmm... that would give new meaning to putting a price on my head.
  1. Kill me.
  2. Extract the chip.
  3. Put it in a small card that fits in your wallet.
  4. Profit!
Of course, by that time, every street corner and decent home (with people that have "nothing to hide") will have cameras aimed at them, so you'd never get away with it... right?

Two Things - (1)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259982)

1) As long as you "rolling your own" then you don't face much in the way of endemic risks by having an RFID implanted. It only becomes a major risk when the RFID's are standardized and then keyed to various large databases. As it is now, even you if your personal implanted RFID gets scanned, it means nothing to any scanner-system besides your own.

2) What's the big deal with getting implanted? Just put a few in your regular "carry-ons" like your watch, your keyring, your cellphone, your sunglasses, a wedding ring if you wear one, etc. No risk of infection or other health problems and for the same reasons in #1 losing one more of them is low-risk because there are no wide-spread standardized systems. If EVERYONE's wedding ring unlocked their front door and started the car's engines, then you might have concerns, but as long as your system is a "one-off" a thief is more likely to steal your car with a slimjim than with a lost rfid-enabled watch.

PS - I own the patent on RFID-in-the-finger-ring-to-open-doors-and-start-ca r-engines.

Re:Two Things - (1)

thealsir (927362) | more than 8 years ago | (#15260025)

PS - I own the patent on RFID-in-the-finger-ring-to-open-doors-and-start-ca r-engines.

Sorry, our corporate holdings department has determined that patent no. 9,323,322,155,423, "RFID-in-the-finger-ring-to-open-doors-and-start-c ar-engines-no-space-between-the-a-and-r" has been already registered. Please contact us immediately before implementing a solution or we may or may not have to take legal action against you.

Self-shielding RFID? (1)

thealsir (927362) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259986)

Perhaps if this were force-implemented, the best security measure would be to make it self-shielding on demand. Say with an external button or one on the outer part of the chip, like a tickle me elmo doll or some such. That way, no random ocks could track you whenever they feel like it.

It'd be the equivalent of unplugging a NIC to make a computer network secure. Maybe plug-in arms/foreheads are the future?

What does the Slashdot community think? (1)

kunwon1 (795332) | more than 8 years ago | (#15259993)

1. Create website about some new and controversial technology, add Google Ads.
2. ...
3. Get slashdotted.
4. Profit!

I -knew- that you would have google ads before I even clicked the link.

give me your tags or ill kill you (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15260006)

thanks. i now have a new car, a new house, some new credit cards, and a bunch of other neat stuff.

god bless the internet.

Bleeding edge! (0, Redundant)

Skippy_kangaroo (850507) | more than 8 years ago | (#15260008)

I'm seriously considering jumping into this head first, being on the bleeding edge, and going with an implant.

Rev.13:16:
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads.

Oh boy, where do I start?

"Head first" - implant in the forehead?! "Bleeding edge" - more like bleeding forehead. I wonder if I could get the sentence to convert to 666 using enough numerological gymnastics...

Socially, it's not that far out! (1)

triplej (413525) | more than 8 years ago | (#15260015)

Having worked with Mikey for the last four years before he decamped to New Mexico, I can say that implanting an RFID tag into his left hand doesn't make him that different. He's still the same intelligent, enthusiastic, quirky geek that he was before the RFID tag.

The first time I met a vegetarian, or the first time I made friends with a millionaire, I had a strong reaction. They were so different from the people who I had met in my "sheltered youth." However, after having met them, seeing them eat tofurkey or watching someone decide they were going to augment their boat and car collection with an aeroplane made sense---it was a logical progression. It might be different and interesting and novel, but it's entirely within character. For that reason, seeing an RFID tag implant in someone who wore electric clothing doesn't seem like a big deal.

However, what is incredible is the splash it made with people and the media. People's reactions have been far stronger than I would have guessed, especially as this project is simply a logical step when you consider some of the other projects he has been involved in. You would have thought that Mikey was becoming a borg!

But it's not like the RFID tag interacts with his body in any shape or form. People with a pacemaker, or amputees with a bionic limb, or even people who wear cochlear hearing aids have far more sophisticated electronics imbedded or attached to their bodies. These don't seem to generate anywhere near the same reaction. I'm not sure why not. Perhaps it's because it's voluntary, perhaps because it seems to be for a whimsical use.

As a compromise (1)

Who235 (959706) | more than 8 years ago | (#15260027)

So you don't have to perform surgery everytime the tech gets better or you decide to rob a bank or whatever, why don't you just shove it up your ass?

The Only Chip... (1)

Chilluhm (953659) | more than 8 years ago | (#15260028)

that I'm putting in my body, will have salsa on it.

Would have some utility (1)

Infonaut (96956) | more than 8 years ago | (#15260029)

There's no way in the world I'd voluntarily put an RFID implant under my skin. As others have pointed out, there are just too many downsides. However, there is one upside nobody has mentioned. The next time you go to a Shadowrun [shadowrunrpg.com] convention, you'll be afforded tremendous respect and deference. "That's the dude who is ACTUALLY CHIPPED!" they'll whisper, as they stride down the corridors of the Airport Hilton, black dusters swirling in the dry, vaguely stale air.

You should seriously rethink this (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15260033)

Haven't felt the desire to post on ./ for a long while but this is worthy of comment.

1) Someones paying you to do this either to promote the idea or test opinion.
2) You're clinically insane.

I expect the usual crowd will deal with point 1, if so I find this level of stage managed propaganda sickening and depressing. But I think point 2 is what's really worth exploring. Do you have some sort of masochistic streak? Seriously, I'm not ragging you, personally I'm not into body piercings and suchlike and it's one of those things that seems to me more than just an issue of taste and personal diversity, I think there are latent self harm issues at the root of all that stuff. Are you trying to be unique and different as an expression? If so I think you need to look more deeply at your life and the valuable ways you are already a unique human being. Take up an unusual sport or get a new hobby. Insering objects into your body that don't belong there is a whole can I don't want to open, so lets leave that there, but I really think the health risks are worth thinking about. I say *risks* because nobody knows. I say it as a scientist who was very recently suprised to see hard research on the power lines cancer link. Nobody thought breast implants were any risk till they started bleeding silicone into womens bodies after 10 years. I think you're very foolish to do such a thing. What if you need to go for a MRI scan? What if you find you start getting stopped at airport security? And what is hard to fathom is who the hell is going to do this for you? What kind of surgeon would risk their licence to practice by performing such a procedure. Or are you going to do this yourself with a penknife? The mind boggles.

Have you even thought about what you are saying? (3, Insightful)

Fallen Kell (165468) | more than 8 years ago | (#15260039)

...solutions that will open my doors...
You mean like to your home? How is this secure? I mean, truely, how? What your RFID only will respond to certain readers? Someone won't be able to have a portable reader connected to say a laptop that reads your RFID and uses that to program the correct response code to other readers?

...unlock my car...
I take it you didn't read the LA Times lately. For reference, go read this article [latimes.com] and when you are done, do you REALLY think they won't be able to do something similar? In fact it will be even easier, they just watch a place that gets a lot of expensive cars, place a few RFID readers around, wait for you to leave and then walk up to your car and drive away. They wouldn't even need to spend several minutes "cracking" your car's code since they got it from you when you drove into the lot.

...log me on to my computer...
Get a fingerprint reader, or a smart card reader. Heck Sun has an entire system based on this for years, it will even move your active session from computer to computer (i.e. the applications you have open and running, your connections to other computers, the mozilla window on slashdot, the code you have compiling, etc...)

...control home automation...
Wow, you need to have a RFID "implanted" to do this? Why not a card or a chip, or widget that fits in your wallet? Why not that for ANY of the above? All you do with the implant is tag yourself for everyone else to see and track. A card/chip/widget can be easily changed. Same reason why you need to change passwords ever few weeks, it make it harder for someone to compromise and continue compromising your security.

Eh? Why? (1)

Telastyn (206146) | more than 8 years ago | (#15260060)

Why do you need a chip when your fingerprint or retina pattern would do the same thing? Better yet, they're significantly harder to duplicate and there's no chance for health issues.

It'll be irrelevant soon enough (1)

MagicDude (727944) | more than 8 years ago | (#15260066)

We talk about RFID now because it's the only current technology we have developed which will function the way we want it to, and work consistantly. Give it 10 or 20 years though, and at that point we might have gattaca-esque technology which will make RFID obsolete. Would we need these tags if we had a device the size of a credit card which could read your DNA in under a second? Put that on your car to unlock it, and you don't need an implanted chip. Jumping on RFID chips now is probably akin to jumping on the 8-track bandwagon too early, and then getting burned by it later when casettes suddenly take off.
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