Social Consequences and Effects of RFID Implants? 531
kramdam asks: "Even with all the talk about privacy and security, there seems to be a growing community of people who are implanting themselves with RFID chips. Being a developer myself, I am intrigued about building applications and solutions that will open my doors, unlock my car, log me on to my computer and control home automation. I'm seriously considering jumping into this head first, being on the bleeding edge, and going with an implant. I have looked at resources like Mikey Sklar's site, and Amal Graafstra's site, since they are two pioneers on this subject. For research, I have started TaggedLife to document my own journey. I was wondering what the Slashdot community think about this. What do you think are the social, security, privacy, and health risks associated with this? What are the pluses? Would you do it?"
Tag yourself with 666 while your at it... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Tag yourself with 666 while your at it... (Score:2)
Re:Tag yourself with 666 while your at it... (Score:2)
Nah, that's what metal foil clothing is for. Just wear a long sleeve tin foil shirt and roll up the sleeve when you want to use your RFID.
Personally, I think this guy is just trying to be weird for the sake of being weird, or maybe he's got some plan to become famous for 15 seconds.
Re:Tag yourself with 666 while your at it... (Score:2, Funny)
1984 (Score:4, Insightful)
"Britain is to become the first country in the world where the movements of all vehicles on the roads are recorded. A new national surveillance system will hold the records for at least two years.
Using a network of cameras that can automatically read every passing number plate, the plan is to build a huge database of vehicle movements so that the police and security services can analyse any journey a driver has made over several years."
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/articl
Don't they make the kiddes read 1984 anymore? How much more blatant do things have to get before there is some sort of real effective reaction?
Oh I forgot it's for the children, and against the terrorists and pirates, nevermind.
When I read stuff like this, off the grid survivalist/back to the land hippies don't sound tin foil hat crazy, they sound like smart forerunners of an underground resistance to tyranny.
Well... (Score:5, Interesting)
Exactly - why implant an RFID device? (Score:5, Interesting)
I agree - an RFID watch would be much better - perhaps an RFID watch that can identify the person wearing it biometrically, even.
Steve
Re:Exactly - why implant an RFID device? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Exactly - why implant an RFID device? (Score:2)
Ah, here it is: Mobile Phone in Your Teeth! [slashdot.org]
Re:Exactly - why implant an RFID device? (Score:2, Insightful)
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/1,70601-0.html [wired.com]
Re:Video! See with your toung U-of-Wisconsin (Score:2)
I'd still rather have the bluetooth tooth, because I'm not into all that eye candy. =)
Re:Exactly - why implant an RFID device? (Score:4, Funny)
Forget that, I want a Lens. Where's Mentor when you need him? Dang, that guy could forecast...
Re:Exactly - why implant an RFID device? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Exactly - why implant an RFID device? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Exactly - why implant an RFID device? (Score:3, Interesting)
an implant is nuts unless you really need to unlock your car and do other things naked.
I find that carrying a card in my wallet or in my cellphone works great for everything the poster wants to do. Watch is the step to make it more with you always as well. A Ring works well too. I have a iButton Java Ring that works really well for door access at home.
High end home automatio
Re:Exactly - why implant an RFID device? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Exactly - why implant an RFID device? (Score:4, Insightful)
Then again, some people may get off on that.
However, I'd stick with a watch/bracelet
Re:Exactly - why implant an RFID device? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Exactly - why implant an RFID device? (Score:3, Interesting)
Obligiory Futurama quote (Score:5, Insightful)
Good news, It's a suppository!
You can't get an MRI once you've been tagged, so the nipple ring would be an improvement in the case you want a MRI for some critical thing instead of it having to be cut out of your arm.
Re:Well... (Score:2)
Re:Well... (Score:2)
You *already* need to take yourself apart to foil biometric ID. You'd need to get rid of your fingertips, retinas, and all your teeth, to begin with. The tiny cut that's used to insert and/or extract a chip is trivial - I've cut myself worse than that in the kitchen.
Re:Well... (Score:5, Insightful)
Well the last time I had imprints/samples of any body-bits taken without my will or knowledge was, oh, never. Nobody hiding in an alley that I'm passing by is getting a good picture of my retina to forge. I don't believe any strangers I may have shook hands with were surreptitiously taking my fingerprints either. With an embedded RFID tag, you could be being positively identified at any time with a very minimal risk of the snooper being detected by you. With remote access, everything is right there for anyone with the right kind of snooping equipment. That's why they had to shield the covers of those RFID passports they came out with, so I guess one would have to put the thing in their wrist and then wear a shielded glove or wristband all the time to protect their privacy. Kind of defeats the purpose of the convenience, if one is at all privacy-minded.
Re:Well... (Score:5, Insightful)
There are no real advantages to such a scheme and plenty of disadvantages. For example:
Indeed, for me---and apologies in advance for my language---I believe the answer is not so much "no", but rather, "hell fucking no."
Re:Well... (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, we kind of do. This technology has been used on animals for years.
Re:Well... (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, we kind of do. This technology has been used on animals for years.
Only on animals that have a typical lifespan of 10 years though.
Re:Well... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Well... (Score:3, Funny)
That's what this world needs! RFID boob jobs! The ultimate fusion of silicon and silicone.
"My, Miss Moneypenny, what lovely... antennas you have."
Re:Well... (Score:3, Insightful)
Finally, no one in their right minds would ever take this approach. It's just not efficient enough. Identity theft works best in VOLUME.
So at that point, you need to start seeing things in a "scarier" light.
Remember how in movies it only takes an expert thief bumpin into you at the shoulder to take your wallet? Now they can grab a whole lot more with a wireless scanner.
RFID devices outright GIVE OUT their information. That's all
Re:Well... (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly. For some reason most people here seem to forget the most important thing:
RFID has nothing to do with encryption/security. It's a serial number. What fucking good is that going to do you? So your car will start when your serial number is near? It should be pretty clear that faking a serial number is trivial. With RFIDs you don't even need physical contact to achieve that.
In other words:
I am intrigued about building applications and solutions that will open my doors, unlock my car, log me on to my computer and control home automation
will not be solved by RFID. I don't even understand where someone would get that idea. You'd be crazy to rely on that. If you think that doing security through positive identification of a certain physical human being present is a good idea (which is debatable to begin with), then you're probably better off doing fingerprint or iris-scanning.
Now if RFID tags had RSA or something built in, it would be a different story. But they don't.
Eh, this whole story makes no sense at all.
Re:Well... (Score:5, Interesting)
The car and computer thing are both daft, but the home automation goal has some merit. If you have a house where more than one person lives, having a home automation system that can track the movements of each person individually would be a major boon. Most current attempts at home automation are based around whether someone is in a room, rather than tailoring to each person.
Of course, you could ask what it would do when two people with conflicting preferences are in the same room, but that's just a software problem and is thus much easier to refine over time.
Re:Well... (Score:2)
Revelations is pretty specific about that mark - it's supposedly going to be on the forehead or right hand. So if that's your concern, just get your chip somewhere else.
Re:Well... (Score:2)
Re:Well... (Score:3)
Why? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Why? (Score:2, Interesting)
Damn. Its like MySpace, only even creepier!
Re:Why? (Score:3, Funny)
"Dude, you got tagged? That is soooo emo!"
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Did you also see the section of fuck-ups [bodymod.org]? Yeeesh.
Google Ads (Score:2)
I thought Google forbids click solicitation like this?
No where to run, No where to hide... (Score:2)
Seriously though. In this day in age unless I give up my credit card, internet account and cell phone I just have to come to grips with the fact that people will be able to track me. The government can find me. Thieves can steal my identity. Why shouldn't I at least benefit from this lack of privacy.
All or nothing, I wouldn't have it any other way. Chip me up.
I salute you in your quest to be boldly public.
Re:No where to run, No where to hide... (Score:2)
This guy wants his chip to unlock his house & open up his car.
Unless his RFID is somehow immune to a basic replay attack, it won't take much for someone to rob him blind.
RFID chips (Score:2)
WTF (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:WTF (Score:3, Funny)
Re:WTF (Score:2)
=)
Privacy (Score:2)
Actually, you're missing a good opportunity here. (Score:5, Interesting)
However, let's assume that this person WANTS the most high-tech solution imaginable. RFID tags are dumb devices with no meaningful logic, which means you can't do encryption key negotiation - or, indeed, any form of encryption at all. Anyone with a scanner can lift ALL of your keys with a simple RFID reader and can then impersonate you with impunity with ALL electronic devices.
If someone wants an implant - genuinely, truthfully, absolutely would die without one - then they should implant an intelligent device, preferably a small embedded general purpose computer. General purpose? Yes, then you only need one implant, which you can then program for ALL of your devices you want to control, rather than having one implant per device.
Strong, crypto would utterly defeat the RFID attack on cars mentioned in an earlier Slashdot story. It would also make the computer "unscannable" the way an RFID tag is, because it's no longer just a passive device. Further, an intelligent device could do ANYTHING you wanted, whereas an RFID tag could not. An embedded computer could monitor your temperature and control the thermostat accordingly, for example. An embedded tag could do nothing more than get crushed as the blood vessels expanded.
Personally, I would avoid implants. Implants can be thought of as deliberate splinters or deliberate cysts, depending on size. Both of these, when they occur naturally, can potentially turn nasty. The body really doesn't take kindly to foreign objects, if it detects them. When you've any kind of device that was probably not assembled in a clean-room environment, sterilized and completely clensed, there's a good risk that implants could carry unwanted hitchhikers. Even when it's all done properly, a good bruise near the implant could turn nasty. That's ignoring any chemical reactions between the implant and the body, which may have other unexpected consequences.
(You should also be aware of materials used. Materials that have a higher-than-normal level of alpha-particle emitters could seriously screw things up. The skin is thick enough to absorb alpha particles, in typical real-world conditions, which is just as well - soft tissue tends not to react too well to such things.)
The embedded computer shares ALL of the health problems of an RFID tag, though scaled up because it is more complex and involves more components. It also needs a power source, so you'll occasionally need to rip yourself open to replace the lithium batteries.
Now, there ARE ways to embed a computer in a person in a way that would minimize hazards on a day-to-day basis. However, there you're talking major surgery for the implant plus for each recharge. Surgery is, itself, extremely dangerous and not something you'd normally do just to add a gadget to your life.
It's possible to imagine surgical implants that COULD be recharged with less effort - such as enlarging the skull and using some of the space added, with a power outlet the bone can grow around - but we're talking serious sci-fi medical techniques here. Sure, there have been experiments involving wiring EEG devices directly to the human brain. Sure, even Stone Age medics could drill holes large enough to run a power outlet or an ethernet port. Sure, there are societies even today that deliberately reshape the skull. But to combine all of this AND enlarge an adult skull, not just reshape a child's... That is probably too complex for existing technology.
However, were implants to be a useful thing for society as a whole, a deep implant (such as in the chest cavity - if you can staple a stomach in half safely, you can wedge a matchbox-sized motherboard in there with absolutely zero impact), or a skull implant would seem to be far more resistant to damage, far more powerful, far more useful, far less toxic and far less likely to trigger an immune response.
Re:Actually, you're missing a good opportunity her (Score:3, Insightful)
WRONG! on a lot of stuff (Score:3, Insightful)
Implanting a RFID is relatively easy - just a large sized needle to place it under the skin - and also fairly easy to take out that way too. The ones that have been used in pets without problems for YEARS! are covered with an inert plastic that also has been used for years in people, without allergic reactions. Yes I guess that if you did develop a large bruise,AND it became infected that the implant could get infected too, but
You are a problem! (Score:2)
I am not religous but agree totally with the fear of the beast that religious people refer to.
The Beast (Score:2, Insightful)
Fuck that... (Score:2)
I don't need a fuckin' implant. Give me a credit-card sized ID, like my old apartment complex had. If I need to, I can break it in half and chuck it in the river. The only thing under my skin that wasnt there from birth will be tattoo ink, thank you very much.
Re:Fuck that... (Score:2)
You need to implant this because...? (Score:2, Insightful)
When the Jones have them... (Score:5, Insightful)
Geez, I wonder what could go wrong (Score:2)
2. Implantable RFID tag
3. ???
4. Profit.
Carry it? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Carry it? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Carry it? (Score:2)
Aero
Re:Carry it? (Score:2)
Make a piercing out of it! An implantable RFID chip dangling by a nipplering. Then you'd really be electropunk, but without getting stuck with outdated technology.
I don't see the appeal (Score:5, Funny)
Just a little stick... (Score:5, Funny)
pluses minuses (Score:3, Insightful)
- Pluses
* You're in a car accident or you collapse and you have to go to the hospital and they need a medical history.* You're child is lost and they need to find his address/phone number (this sounds incredibally pet like, I know. But the kid should be allowd to have it turned off/removed @ age 18 or younger if parents consent)
- Minuses
* Let's say someone finds a way to sniff the signal, and can open your car/house what have you* You want to take a job in the covert business..
* Anyone can track you
* If this takes off and business impliment it and you don't want to do it then you can't buy goods and what not. I personally would never do this. It's just wrong in sooo many ways, religiously and ethically.
Re:pluses minuses (Score:3, Insightful)
Once there is a generation or two that have grown up with them...they will see it as normal, and quite possibly won't want to have it turned off/taken out. And also...those 'kids' don't stay kids. They grow up to be politicians.
Re:pluses minuses (Score:2)
I can tell you right now that I'd sooner perform ameteur surgery on my own arm without anaesthesia than leave that ***ker in.
Re:pluses minuses (Score:3, Insightful)
Therefore I move to transfer that point from (+) to (-)
Breast implants (Score:2, Insightful)
Now maybe it's just me but we hear a lot of stories about cancer being connected to various signals from things like mobile phones or microwaves. The RFID technology is still rather young and we don't know if it will have any sort of effect li
Paranoid hypochondria (Score:3, Informative)
The FDA pulled silicone implants to study them in detail. The claims of killing people were thoroughly debunked. Silicone breast implants that leak need to be removed, but about the worst thing that happens after a leak is having little lumps of silicone under the skin that move around.
This is psychologically disturbing in the extreme. Naturally, women who had this happen and then got sick for other reasons blamed the leak.
Saline breast implants are a genuine health risk if something grows in
Re:Breast implants (Score:2)
Not that I don't enjoy the thought... (Score:2, Funny)
Of course, anyone with the money to implement this kind of thing should probably just give it to me instead. I'll open your doors the old fashioned way, with no need for a costly renovation or painful RFID implant! Yours for just $200,000 tax-free per year. As an added bon
Why not an RFID key? (Score:2)
Life imitates art (Score:3, Informative)
On the one hand, there's this notion that crime will be a thing of the past because at any moment we can see where everyone is. Want to go hiking and then swimming and don't want to carry around a wallet? No problem since every store can immediately verify your ID and credit as you enter the building. Super conveniet. When you step in your car it will automatically adjust the seats, tune your 6 presets, adjust the volumes, load your phone number list into the car phone, queue your MP3s. Online shopping will be a breeze since your computer will have scanners to verify your ID point-to-point. Identity theft? No longer possible. And crime will be down. Want to figure out who graffitied a wall? Just check the perimeter logs and find the ID. Want to see who should/shouldn't be in a building? Check the entrance and hallway logs. After all, if you've got nothing to hide, why should you worry?
Then there's that other side... No implant? Then no credit for you. No purchases, no vending machines, no access to the school. Or maybe it will be an onerous process... Fill out a form, wait a day or two. In the clubs the twenty-somethings will politely turn away when you bring out *cash* to pay for a drink. What sort of freak pays with cash anymore?
But more than likely we'll accept the intrusions into our privacy because it'll be do damned convenient. We pay for our groceries and medications with credit cards, shop online for books (ohmygod!) with credit cards, attend subversive movies such as Jarhead or Fahrenheit 911 or Narnia and pay with credit cards, we book hotels, rent cars to travel to Omaha and Key West and pay with credit cards... RFID is just the next logical step.
(I just saw Gattaca so I'm in that sort of mood)
Security through obscurity (Score:2)
Two Things - (Score:2)
2) What's the big deal with getting implanted? Just put a few in your regular "carry-ons" like your watch, your keyring, your cellphone, your sunglasses, a wedd
Would have some utility (Score:2)
There's no way in the world I'd voluntarily put an RFID implant under my skin. As others have pointed out, there are just too many downsides. However, there is one upside nobody has mentioned. The next time you go to a Shadowrun [shadowrunrpg.com] convention, you'll be afforded tremendous respect and deference. "That's the dude who is ACTUALLY CHIPPED!" they'll whisper, as they stride down the corridors of the Airport Hilton, black dusters swirling in the dry, vaguely stale air.
Have you even thought about what you are saying? (Score:4, Insightful)
You mean like to your home? How is this secure? I mean, truely, how? What your RFID only will respond to certain readers? Someone won't be able to have a portable reader connected to say a laptop that reads your RFID and uses that to program the correct response code to other readers?
...unlock my car...
I take it you didn't read the LA Times lately. For reference, go read this article [latimes.com] and when you are done, do you REALLY think they won't be able to do something similar? In fact it will be even easier, they just watch a place that gets a lot of expensive cars, place a few RFID readers around, wait for you to leave and then walk up to your car and drive away. They wouldn't even need to spend several minutes "cracking" your car's code since they got it from you when you drove into the lot.
...log me on to my computer...
Get a fingerprint reader, or a smart card reader. Heck Sun has an entire system based on this for years, it will even move your active session from computer to computer (i.e. the applications you have open and running, your connections to other computers, the mozilla window on slashdot, the code you have compiling, etc...)
...control home automation...
Wow, you need to have a RFID "implanted" to do this? Why not a card or a chip, or widget that fits in your wallet? Why not that for ANY of the above? All you do with the implant is tag yourself for everyone else to see and track. A card/chip/widget can be easily changed. Same reason why you need to change passwords ever few weeks, it make it harder for someone to compromise and continue compromising your security.
Eh? Why? (Score:2)
It'll be irrelevant soon enough (Score:2)
Wait until they start cutting off body parts (Score:2)
Personally, I think having anything put in your body that doesn't have to go there is a stupid risk to take, however small it might be.
A stolen RFID key would mean... (Score:2)
Thanks, but I'll stick to the flat metal thing with the notches cut into it.
Less Secure, I think (Score:2)
One of the things with current physical keys is that if necessary you can 'lose' them, and no one else can open the lock. You can't do this with an implanted RFID key without ripping off your arm. This means someone can kidnap you, and they instantly have access to everything you have access to. There's no throwing your keys off a bridge or 'forgetting' your password, your presence is your password (not even something like a voice print, in which case you could simply refuse to speak).
Heck, if they were r
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:why? (Score:2)
Hmm makes me think of a possible book or novel plot, someone who goes into hospital at the same time as say the president has eachothers RFID chips put back into each other accidently...
Re:why? (Score:3, Funny)
(Yes, I know. And now you know, and I know you know...
Illegals (Score:2)
Don't arrest the Illegals crossing the border, tranq them then tag them with permanant RFID implants. Preferably in the form of a suppository.
Equip the police with scanners and a list of IDs. Then all they have to do is scan the illegals, and fine the employers. It will pay for itself.
Obsolescence (Score:5, Insightful)
Obviously, you have no sense of how quickly technology becomes obsolete.
Otherwise, you wouldn't want to implant that technology into you.
Human Cattle (Score:2, Insightful)
I personally think it is nuts, and so obviously a big brother wet dream model as to make it a "line never to be crossed" issue with me. You really can't see this, the implications? Just extrapolate a little, use your imagination, think of the "bad" that eventually will come of this. And it will, bet your salary on it.
And volu
Can I implant my pocket instead? (Score:5, Insightful)
So, please, instead of putting the proprietary and easily-obsolesced technological bolus UNDER MY GOD-DAMNED SKIN can I, yuh, just stick it in my pocket?
That'd be brilliant. Cheers.
This Perfect Day (Score:2)
Then implant an RFID tag in your body if you still want to.
Security? (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't see how this offers any practical security benefits. Let's explore a possible holdup situation involving a standard punk and an "early adopter":
Punk: Gimme your keys or I'll cut you!
You: Sorry, no keys, I start my car with a microchip in my hand.
Punk: What the hell? Don't fuck with me! Gimme your keys!
You: I told you, I-... Urrghhrgh *Sounds of dying*
Nope, doesn't look too promising. Nope, not too promising at all... But maybe if you're reeeallly lucky he'll know about RFID tags and just saw off your hand instead!
Poor tradeoff (Score:3, Informative)
You're locked out.
To prevent this, you have to have keys stored somewhere to avoid the problem, the same thing you do when you use keys to avoid being stuck when you loose your keys, so there is no safety advantage.
For me this looks like a stupid thing to do, the only "real" advantage is the 15min of fame of having implants, it would be much more intelligent to use watch or mobile phones to do the same thing..
RFID = 666? (Score:5, Funny)
Open source it (Score:3, Interesting)
Projections (Score:3, Funny)
Really? I thought I had read that the number of crazy people has has actually stayed pretty constant for the last 2,000 years.
In other news, the next DARPA grand challenge is probably going to be "design a robot that hunts RFID-carrying humanoids" ;-)
Re:I have nothing to hide (Score:2)
Stupid people will believe that the persons in control of the RFID stuff are pure in their intentions, and that the system will not be abused.
Re:I have nothing to hide (Score:5, Funny)
Nice.
Re:I have nothing to hide (Score:4, Insightful)
You did say nothing, right?
Re:Easily cloned (Score:2)
Mod parent Offtopic! ;) (Score:2)