Prices, Gouging and Haggling for Internet Domains? 184
GregStevensLA asks: "I'm considering paying for a 'premium' domain name for a small web start-up I want to form. The company that currently holds the domain name is offering it for $1500, but they made it clear to me that they expect a counter-offer and are 'willing to make a deal.' I've never done this before, and I have no idea what a reasonable counter-offer is. If I say 'I can't go above $1000' am I being too easy? Should I try to push for lower than that? My understanding is that these prices are hugely inflated anyway (i.e. pure profit going to companies that probably scooped up the domains for free). In some sense, paying anything beyond a registration fee is gouging, in my opinion. I don't want to be conned... on the other hand, this is the reality of business, and I don't want to come across as amateurish. Does anyone have any advice for this new-comer to domain name purchasing?"
Let's get this point out of the way (Score:5, Insightful)
Please do your best to find an alternative first. Look into alternatives before succumbing and compensating these worthless parasites for their land grabbing.
Re:Let's get this point out of the way (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Let's get this point out of the way (Score:2)
Re:Let's get this point out of the way (Score:2)
I mentioned the $750 because it's the natural haggle price (as opposed to the "captive market" pric
Re:Let's get this point out of the way (Score:2)
I fail it (Score:2, Funny)
Squatting sucks but legit buying exists. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Squatting sucks but legit buying exists. (Score:2)
Re:Let's get this point out of the way (Score:2)
I wouldn't be surprised if the emails you get are nearly automated. They are just hoping for that one big score, and
Re:Let's get this point out of the way (Score:4, Informative)
don't! (also paul graham's advice) (Score:2)
but if you will consider his opinion more throughly:
paul graham's take on it [infogami.com].
Hey Greg (Score:5, Funny)
We spoke eralier about you purchasing a domain name from us. In light of recent interest in the domain, we're now asking $2500.
Thanks,
Your Friendly Neighborhood Domain Dealer
Re:Hey Greg (Score:2)
Bender: Now how about a rose for the lady? Five bucks a pop!
Gary: I'll take one.
Fry: Oh, yeah? Well I want one too.
Bender: Eight bucks.
Fry: But you just said--
Bender: Demand suddenly skyrocketed. You all saw it!
Find a better name. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Find a better name. (Score:2)
Actually, that depends on your point of view. Markets are notoriously bad at setting prices in a truly efficient manner.
Re:Find a better name. (Score:3, Funny)
That, also, depends on your point of view.
Re:Find a better name. (Score:2)
True enough. Markets are quite efficient from the point of view of the con artist. And only a con artist could like the free market. Cybersquatters are just another parasite on a system that invites parasitical behavior.
Re:Find a better name. (Score:2)
Well, let's look at the track record so far of the pro-market people in this debate: We've got people who can't admit that a captive market is not a free market, that markets limit information transfer, and now an AC who can't even come up with a better argument for charging $1500 for a cyber-squatted domain name than to call me a troll or stupid. Who's the stupid one now?
Re:Find a better name. (Score:2)
Re:Find a better name. (Score:2)
Inaccurate pricing is just as bad as expensive pricing in the long run.
Re:Find a better name. (Score:2)
What does your statement mean? What is bad about expensive pricin
Re:Find a better name. (Score:3, Insightful)
The main problem I have with markets is the serious lack of information- by anonymizing the buyers and sellers as much as possible, you guarantee that the con artists will always win out because people don't have enough information to make an adequate decision. That's a stupid system, not stupid people. The only way market price will ever be fair is if all liars are shot on sig
Re:Find a better name. (Score:2)
Re:Find a better name. (Score:2)
Have they? Do they include the date that the registration will be expiring if you do not pay their price so that you have a chance of grabbing it again before they renew?
Its up to you to determine if its worth it. This being the internet, the potential buyer can research to see what people are paying for domains. They can also post an Ask Slashdot to get information from other peoples' experiences
Re:Find a better name. (Score:2, Insightful)
Don't you think, for a system to be judged a "good system", it needs to be a system that is "good" the way people actually use it?
It's like usability and interfaces. If people are constantly messing up, you can blame the users... or you can blame the system for not being designed with "real users" in mind.
Free markets are great when people don't quite behave the way people actually behave.
Re:Find a better name. (Score:2)
The difference is, there's a finite amount of land, and there's a finite amount of potentially-popular land. The domain namespace is potentially infinite. But squatters do use valuable resources, thus making it more expensive not for us domain-buyers, but for those running the system, thus (potentially) making future domain name registrations more
Re:Find a better name. (Score:2)
Don't Buy It (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Don't Buy It (Score:4, Informative)
Heck, I'm as atypical as a user can be and I've been finding myself Googling "Amazon" recently.
Re:Don't Buy It (Score:2, Insightful)
You're right.... I think I am trapped, a little bit, in an "oldschool" attitude about the transparency of domain names.
At the same time, I can't help wondering... would www.google.com have gained as much popularity if it had been www.askmenoquestionsilltellyounolies.me.uk ?
Would www.myspace.com be as popular if it was called www.socialnetworkingprofilesforyouandme.org.tw?
Re:Don't Buy It (Score:4, Insightful)
Yourname.com (or whatever) is already taken, so make something else up. If it can work for Google, it can work for you.
Re:Don't Buy It (Score:2)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barney_Google [wikipedia.org]
Re:Don't Buy It (Score:5, Informative)
In the Internet, things are almost completely reversed. If you're a destination, then you might well get accessed by the address bar (Amazon, Google, eBay, MySpace) -- its very important to you to have a punchy, memorable, very unambiguous (can't be mispelled or misremembered) name. If you're not a destination, you rely on people seeing you "from the road" as it were, and in today's internet "the road" is Google. Google doesn't care whether you have a maximally-punchy minimally-long domain name or not.
I wouldn't write a 45 letter domain name for the heck of it, but you can feel free to not treat "six to eight characters terminated with .com, and exactly equivalent to your business name" as the gospel anymore. You're the expert on your own business, so you're best qualified to determine whether your users will see you as a destination location or not.
Re:Don't Buy It (Score:4, Interesting)
But even banks will pay extra to build where the customers are. For instance, there are two new banks near me. Both are built on pretty recently expensive real estate, real estate that could have been had much cheaper a few miles down the road. But they built where the money was.
So there is some element of "location" here, like being a .com, and bussiness routinely make decisions to pay exhorbanant fees for location. But there is a second issue here, and that is branding. If one is burger king, then building a consistant brand means that you must use something like BK.com, and, if the brand is established, then the law pretty much gives access to those domain.
However, a new service still has to worry about presenting a consistant brand and a veneer of credibility. It may be shallow but I think twice about dealing with a so-called pro that has an address at aol.com, or ms.com, or even mac.com. I mean I would sooner conduct bussiness out of the trunk on a olds. When banks merge they spend massive amount of cash rebuilding the brand. So why is it not rational, when one is trying to build a new brand to not invest money in it?
I am not trying to defend these creeps. I do not even like the fact that allegedly reputable registrars like godaddy have the service of stealing domains from those who forget to register, and then try to scare their clients into long term registrations based on the fact that godaddy has a service that can steal them if the client is one second late. But a cool name seems be helpful for bussiness, and a domain matching the cool name does seem to provide some added value.
So, what is the advice to the original question that no one want to answer, but rather demean the poster and criticize the behavior that all of the money making world seems to believe, at least to some degree, is rational. Just like any other deal, figure out what it is worth. Not how much you can pay, but what it is worth to you. Just like any other product. Try to negotiate to that price. If you can live without the domain, lowball. If not try to find the current going rate and start there. It might be the 1K, it might less, or more. If you can't justify the cost, move on. Perhaps there is another name use can use. Perhaps there is another way to represent the name.
At the end of the day it is a bussiness decision, and all this emotional crap that all these allegedly rational posters are pulling is just not useful. To get anything done we all have to deal with scum. If you can't take the scum, then stay out of the bedroom.
Why aren't all these posts redundant? (Score:2)
Re:Why aren't all these posts redundant? (Score:2)
Re:Why aren't all these posts redundant? (Score:2)
But seriously, if people don't have anything relevant to add to the ques
That's nothing (Score:5, Informative)
The company that currently holds the domain name is offering it for $1500
I recently received a solicitation for a church domain name. I am the webmaster for my church and another church in North or South Carolina (I forget where), no longer needs one of their domain names. The church I attend has the same name, but is located in another state. Basically, the guy said he wanted to offer us first dibs. When we inquired as to how much he wanted, he said that it had been "appraised" at up to $20,000. Though, he was very nice about it and said that he would give it to us for $8000. Sheesh. I recommended to our pastor that he ignore the request since we already have a well known and establishd domain.
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
Re:That's nothing (Score:2)
But if your pastor can ask for the process to be expedited, we'd all be grateful.
Re:That's nothing (Score:2)
Appraising something is the same as saying "what the fool would give for it".
The church I attend has the same name, but is located in another state.
There *is* some logic about the ca.us and or.us and other state.us domain names. Throwing everything in one basket is not good planning.
.com is overrated (Score:4, Informative)
Re:.com is overrated (Score:3, Interesting)
slashdot.com (Score:2)
But so are you!!
Yes! (Score:3, Funny)
Price Gouging (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Price Gouging (Score:3, Funny)
All domains are worth precisely $12. No more, no less.
If someone has registered a domain, and is offering to sell it to you for more than that, they're nothing but leeching parasites, or as the PC like to call them, "cyber-squatters".
Don't feed the parasites.
Re:Price Gouging (Score:4, Insightful)
All domains are worth precisely $12. No more, no less.
If someone has registered a domain, and is offering to sell it to you for more than that, they're nothing but leeching parasites, or as the PC like to call them, "cyber-squatters".
Don't feed the parasites.
Bullshit. There is such a thing as supply and demand. Domain names have features such as being easy to remember, have connotations to other items, being short, etc. This is why something like gmail.com is much more valueable than MyCantRememberTheNameForEmailButThisMightBeIt.com or asdf1324la8h_asdlkjuq7.com.
A domain name is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it, no more and no less.
You might want to review some economic theories postulated after the 17th Century. What you're espousing is called the "natural price" in Pre-Classical Thought.
Re:Price Gouging (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Price Gouging (Score:2)
then it went to 35$ a year.. a few more of the posiable populare names where being squated..
then it went 10$ . and even less in bulk.. now we have the worst squating we have ever seen..
I would be more than happey to pay 35-99$ a year for the domains i run because i know they are worth it to me.. and if putting the price back wh
Re:Price Gouging (Score:2)
Subject to property tax. Squat on a thousand domains worth a thousand bucks each? (potentially)
Pay property tax on $1,000,000. Probably around $5,000 a year, depending.
Re:Price Gouging (Score:2)
Taxed by who? Taxes are levied by governments and property tax is on tangible items that have defined boundries. Exactly which gov't agency do you propose levy a property tax on domains?
Keep in mind, there is no such animal as a multi-national taxing agency that is recognized i
Re:Price Gouging (Score:2)
Now that I think about it, I kinda like the idea though. You're taxed on real property by whoever regulates it. The ICANN or whoever would tax domain names.
Keep in mind this is a joke suggestion, meant to annoy free-marketeers who claim it is just like real est
Re:Price Gouging (Score:3, Insightful)
Once I've acquired google.com, I'd also like business.com, sex.com, apple.com and microsoft.com. That's five domains -- how about 5/$50?
Re:Price Gouging (Score:2)
Google has a legitimate business use for their domain. They registered it, and yes, if they ever choose to relinquish it, then that name would sell for millions or more.
That is NOT what we're discussing. We're discussing names that aren't being used for any practical purpose, but merely squatted to try to make a buck off of someone else that really does want to use it.
Leeching parasites.
Re:Price Gouging (Score:2)
Basically what price gouging means is one of two things. Either one company has a monopoly on something (like MS Windows) and charges higher than normal rates (at least I think so) for the product, but you can't get it from another vendor. The other way to price gouge is for all vendors of a specific product to agree on a basic pricing strategy (as people are s
Re:Price Gouging (Score:2)
Rarity (Score:3, Insightful)
The question is in this case- do you change the name of your business, or run the risk of your competitor being willing to pay the $1500 to grab this domain and then slander your business or direct business to their site in your name. The risk is great enough that this is not a voluntary transaction- and wh
Re:Rarity (Score:2)
Gimme a break. I've had my eye on an original Van Gough [vangoghgallery.com] for years now. It is significantly rare, so by your definition my attempt to purchase it is not voluntary. After all, the cost of canvas and paint should make it less than $100. Anything more is gouging! Maybe if I stamp my feet and picket the gallery,
Re:Rarity (Score:2)
That's correct- you don't have the choice to go to another person for the same painting, at least legally (saw a man on "Globe Trekker" on PBS who MIGHT be able to serve you for the $100 you're willing to pay- if you're willing to go to Hong Kong), thus this is NOT a free market by definition.
After all, the cost of canvas a
Re:Rarity (Score:2)
Arbitration is always won by the company with the deepest pockets for bribing the arbitrators. I have no faith in arbitration, courts, or anything else presided over by a government elected of, from, and by the corporations.
Re:Rarity (Score:2)
Re:Rarity (Score:2)
Re:Rarity (Score:2)
I believe that goods are divided into needs and wants- and to put needs on the free market instead of sharing them is the very definition of the mortal sin of greed.
If not, then it follows that you believe the seller is partially enslaved to the buyer, since you believe the buyer is entitled, on some level, to the good the seller produced or purchased with his own labor.
The foolish man asks for freedom, not knowing what he asks for.
Re:Price Gouging (Score:3, Informative)
From A Seller (Score:3, Interesting)
I recently put two domain names that I own up for sale. They point to an austere page that says essentially: "Welcome. I do not need this domain anymore and if you would like it, I am willing to sell it for $50. Contact me
There is certainly a difference in amount, but my domain names are fairly obscure and (likely) won't be of much interest to anyone. I'm not going to renew them, and my thought is that if anyone would like to have them sooner than the expiration then they can pay me a small amount for that. Hell, a couple of the big registrars still charge around that much for one year.
Maybe this person isn't a cybersquater per se, perhaps he once used this domain and thinks it is worth something. So far as I know, there isn't even a way to relinquish a domain name that is registered some time out into the future back into the commons. Determine what you will pay for the privilege to use the name now rather than later (or instead of another name), and make an offer. Be upfront -- "This is what it is worth to me, this is what I will pay, final offer, let me know." Depending on your project, maybe it is even worth what he is asking.
If you have a firm value in your mind and do not pay more than that value, you'll win -- regardless of whether you get the domain.
Don't do it! (Score:2, Informative)
Appearing professional (Score:2)
I fear your business is not long for this world (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't want to sound harsh, but I do think you really need to step back and reconsider your plans - perhaps you can locate a local college where you might get a dispassionate third party to help fix you a nice big bowl of Reality Checks.
I've watched too many businesses fail because the founders, while having the best of intentions, made bad decisions because they were not willing to face the harsh, unpleasant facts.
Please - do prove me wrong. Be successful, and when you are successful, feel free to email me and say "Boooya! In your FACE Wowbagger!" If you can be successful you will have earned the right to do so, and I will congratulate you.
But if you keep doing things like seriously considering spending $1500, or even $100 on a domain name when you are just starting out - I don't expect that email.
Re:I fear your business is not long for this world (Score:2, Funny)
- I asked Slashdot.
;-)(in all seriousness, though: your point is well taken)
Re:I fear your business is not long for this world (Score:2)
Your post is both polite and logical, if just a little cold. Unfortunatly, cold is warrented in this case.
So to the idiot who thinks it's wrong to tell someone when they're being stupid, well you just need life to teach you a few lessons.
To wowbagger, better luck on your next post.
Re:I fear your business is not long for this world (Score:2)
I didn't regard that post as a troll whatsoever. Heck, with the money he saves buying a generic domain name, he can afford to buy himself a nice Herman Miller Aeron chair.
As far as squatting goes, you can't maintain an empty ecological niche that has proven this profitable. Blaming the squatters is hugely misguided. It's like blaming teenagers for having sex. When a giant new chunk of realestate becomes available (e.g. wild west) you tend to end up with one of two models: land grab, or public auction.
Re:I fear your business is not long for this world (Score:2)
Oh well - my goal of communicating my opinion to the submitter of the story was achieved (and thanks for the response, BTW).
Re:I fear your business is not long for this world (Score:2)
Yeah, um. Most aren't, actually. See, Slashdot has a very strange perspective on business, because a tremendous (by comparison to the typical world) percentage of developers, especially web developers. Back in the real world, you can't start a business on two guys, a good idea and two months of secret hard work. Sure, it works on the web. It doesn't work for any business with a brick and mortar presence. It doesn't work
Re:I fear your business is not long for this world (Score:2)
A domain name is off limited value (Score:3, Interesting)
A lesser value might exist if the name is easy to associate. weather.com for instance is easier to remember as a weather site then sfgsjkdhgfksdfk.com It don't matter to find the site via google but in ads or just remembering the site from previous visits weather.com is just a bit easier.
The last case is if you already got a real world brand name and now want to have that same name on the web. Just recently I wanted to visit the vanguard page. It wasn't the first result on google (a game not coming as the first result for its name is pretty rare) and I actually had to scroll down to see vangaurdsoh.com
Does it matter? Well not much as you can see BUT I have in the past just typed in vanguard and gotten the wrong site.
So the question to you is, does the above apply to you? Is that name really worth 1000 dollars? It sounds like it is a lot of money for you. So most likely not. Try finding another name or one from a different domain like say .net .us or whatever.
Most people will either use a search engine to find your site OR find it by being given the URL in some other form. Focus on something that is simple to remember and doesn't cost a 1000 dollars and do some advertising.
Invest in something useful (Score:4, Insightful)
Buying a Nolo [nolo.com] book on legal protection is definitely well worth the $30-$50 investment, and the knowledge gained will carry over to any new businesses you might decide to start. Don't even consider paying a huge chunk of hard-earned money for a domain name without at least understanding the basics of legal rights that do (and don't) convey with it.
First things first (Score:2)
Before you try to decide whether to pay it or not, figure out what the domain name is worth to you. Will that $1500 be a good return on the investment? Isn't there something more worthwhile you can be spending your capital on? If your business model requires you to have this and no other domain name, then you'll have to suck it up and soend the money. Start out with a sub-1000 counteroffer. This is business - if you're going in feeling afraid of looking foolish, then you're going to lose your money. Go in w
You're lucky (Score:2)
I'd say be creative, though: offer $1000 and a case of beer delivered to their office this coming Friday afternoon.
Re:You're lucky (Score:2)
A fried of mine has a domain. It's a five letter common dictionary word dot com. He gets occasional offers to buy it -- people have even offered as much as $15,000 for it.
We don't use it for a business, but we have our mail and web stuff and such on it, so it's certainly not unused, and it would be a big drag to replace it. So he's not going to sell it for some small amount of change. But $15k? Sure,
Safer Domain Name Checking (Score:3, Interesting)
And when you pick a name, buy it immediately, as the registrars are known to watch the queries for domain names, and if they see a good one, they'll grab the domain themselves and then offer to sell for a lot more. So today you find reallygooddomainname.com and it's available, but tomorrow it might not be -- tomorrow they want $1000 for it.
Certain registrars and resellers are notorious for selling "recent inquiry lists" to domain kings. I actually lost a domain name this way a few years back, after chec
Offer the lowest price possible and test them out (Score:5, Informative)
Someone squatted on centurix.com and I asked them how much. $5000 was the reply, so I said $100 is my best offer, if that's not enough then have fun with the domain. They accepted, I had the domain for 2 years and just let it lapse, the same company bought it again after I had it. Good luck to them, my current domain suits us much better.
The only thing that really matters is... (Score:2)
As some other post hove mentioned would a
You can do the same thing with online.com, int.com, home.com etc.
That eing said I wouldn't make an offer much under $100 as I expect they'd probably rej
Get a trademark, then UDRP (Score:5, Informative)
Once you have a trademark on the domain that describes your stuff, you can make a cybersquatting complaint. If the domain owner is just parking the domain, under the Uniform Dispute Resolution Policy [icann.org] that's considered "use in bad faith". Then you send a letter to the domain owner, threatening a UDRP proceeding.
(If it's a "private registration", the registrar will now "uncloak" the domain so fast your head will spin, because they don't want to be the party to a UDRP proceeding or lawsuit.)
At this point, either the other side will offer to sell you the domain for less than a UDRP costs ($1000), or you go forward to a mandatory UDRP proceeding, which is an instant win when you have the trademark.
Well, no. (Score:3, Informative)
Second, priority is an issue. You need to have some rights in the name predating the acquisition of the domain by the current owner. Registering a trademark helps, but the history of its use may matter.
Sorry about that.
responses (Score:2)
2) Even with the cheapest arbitrators, a UDRP filing costs $1300 [arb-forum.com]. Why would you pay that when a few hundred more guarantees you get the domain? Remember, filer pays.
3) Trademark applications (in the US and most of civilization) require proof of use to register. You won't even have the registration to throw around unless you're already using the name. Obviously, from the article, the submitter
Re:Get a trademark, then UDRP (Score:2)
--Dr. Zowie(TM)
This is easy (Score:3, Interesting)
Domain Value... (Score:2)
One of my domains hosts a site that really was just something a friend and I put together back around 1999 or so. It was just a little project that we figured we would play with. We mostly neglected the site, as anyone who has ever visited it can tell you.
We had considered just giving up on it all but over the years people kept offering us money for the name. The highest offer we ever had was for over $4000
Re:Domain Value... (Score:2)
There's just no telling what that's all about.
It's only temporary, though.
Domain name parking is NOT cybersquatting (Score:2)
Its a different issue if you thought of a cool domain name and got it before
anyone else...or even if you found a name that several people might want
"sex.com" its still not cybersquatting.
Don't offer them $1500 (Score:3, Funny)
Am I getting a fair shake or getting conned? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Am I getting a fair shake or getting conned? (Score:2)
My rule is: Don't feed the parasites. Think of a new name. Remember that none of the biggest most successful Internet companies paid off cybersquatters for "prime virtual real estate" like search.com or book
What legacy does the domain name have? (Score:2)
On the other hand, if it has pagerank of, say, 5 or more,
chose a different name (Score:2)
If you do go ahead and buy, some business advice (Score:2)
Re:If you do go ahead and buy, some business advic (Score:2)
I saved this from a Slashdot post long ago.... (Score:2)
Paragraph 4(c), which the "respondant" can use to defend the domain name, seems pretty easy to satisfy:
(i) before any notice to you of the dispute, your use of, or demonstrable preparations to use, the domain name or a name corresponding to the domain name in connection with a bona fide offering of goods or services; or
(ii) you (as an individual, business or other organization) have been commonly known by the domain name, even if you have acquired no
How important is the name? (Score:2)
No easy answers, just some things to consider: