Will Vista Run Your Games? 115
mikemuch writes "With Vista reaching the more stable beta 2 designation, Jason Cross at ExtremeTech decided to run a slew of popular PC games -- Oblivion, F.E.A.R, GTA, Civ IV, WoW, and more -- on the OS to see what will and won't run, and how well. His findings are encouraging, but unsurprisingly the OS is not quite ready for prime time. Some work is needed on the part of driver writers, Microsoft, and game developers to get the gaming experience ready for launch day. The biggest problem he found was StarForce copy protection and a performance drop-off in many of the games when using anti-aliasing. From the article: 'With Microsoft proclaiming a "PC gaming renaissance" around the launch of Vista, they need to really deliver a fantastic experience, and it's not quite there yet.'"
OS X? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:OS X? (Score:3, Funny)
What do you expect. They have a perfectly fine gaming machine that they want to sell you, that just needs a TV
Am I the only one. . . (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Am I the only one. . . (Score:2)
Six of one, half dozen of the other...
Re:Am I the only one. . . (Score:2)
And what I'm assuming to have happen.
Re:Am I the only one. . . (Score:2)
Capt. Obvious (Score:5, Funny)
Hence why it's coming out next year, not now.
Re:Capt. Obvious (Score:1)
Re:Capt. Obvious (Score:2)
I'm sure I'm not the only one to have found this to be anything but the case. They break games from one version of Direct X to another, more less the whole OS.
Microsoft has never shown themselves to be worried about breaking backward compatibility. The compatibility mode built into XP is a joke, and not a funny one.
Re:Capt. Obvious (Score:2)
I don't agree with that at all. There's nothing a developer would like more than to be able to completely ignore backwards compatibility, and there are few things more important to people. Microsoft would LOVE to just break everything and start fresh, but there's no way anybody would upgrade if none of their programs ran on the new OS. Whether or not they're successful is a completely different issue.
Virtualization (Score:1)
Microsoft would LOVE to just break everything and start fresh, but there's no way anybody would upgrade if none of their programs ran on the new OS.
Unless Microsoft's new OS came with a copy of Microsoft's previous OS and a virtualizer. I seem to remember that Mac OS X 10.0 through 10.4 for PowerPC did something similar during the 9 to X transition.
Re:Capt. Obvious (Score:2)
For example ?
Microsoft has never shown themselves to be worried about breaking backward compatibility.
Considering the ridiculous lengths Microsoft commonly go to so that backwards compatibility is preserved, that's pretty funny.
You were shooting for "+1, Funny" right ?
Re:Capt. Obvious (Score:1)
I'm going to call bullshit here. For the last 3 or 4 versions of DX, the previous API remains in place, unchanged. To code to the new version of DX, you must code to a new (but similar) API.
Why is this even a question? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why is this even a question? (Score:2)
Re:Why is this even a question? (Score:4, Insightful)
Apple and Linux aren't any better about running 6- to 10-year-old software. OSX just refuses to run quite a few old programs, and Linux just drives you insane trying to sort out dependencies and versions and all the rest of that fun stuff.
When it's done right, Linux is probably the most backwards-compatible...but XP's compatibility is somewhere in the middle, and much easier than Linux...when it works.
Re:Why is this even a question? (Score:1, Troll)
Re:Why is this even a question? (Score:1)
Re:Why is this even a question? (Score:2)
Just because we've seen it done doesn't mean it's always feasible.
And the other reply to your post sums up my other point nicely, so I don't even have to make it
DOS 3.3? (Score:1)
And I've seen programs designed for DOS 3.3 run under Windows XP.
Only because you've installed the AppleWin emulator ;-) (Apple had a product called DOS 3.3 long before Microsoft released MS-DOS version 3.3.)
Re:Why is this even a question? (Score:2)
And XP running DOS programs dating from the mid 80s is not at all uncommon.
DOS games - as anyone dating from the era should know - *frequently* relied on direct access to hardware and undocumented bugs/quirks/features in both hardware and the different versions (and brands) of DOS. That they often don't work in a compatibility layer that doesn't allow direct hardware access and typically only r
Re:Why is this even a question? (Score:2)
This is much easier to achieve than on dos/windows, for a number of reasons:
UNIX programs tend to use the APIs, rather than accessing hardware directly like dos games did
UNIX APIs are standardised, documented and have remained so for years, there is no incentive to use undocumented functionality because that would hurt portability to other platforms (many unix programs are written for multiple unix platforms)
Re:Why is this even a question? (Score:2)
Linux back-compat? You make me giggle (Score:1)
Linux is probably the most backwards-compatible
Not for proprietary software, which most PC peripheral manufacturers seem to prefer. A proprietary device driver that uses the right subset of WDM can run on Windows 98se, Windows Me, Windows 2000, and Windows XP. Linux, on the other hand, changes the kernel ABI on every kernel version, and different distributions use different kernel versions.
Re:Why is this even a question? (Score:2)
And now that classic is no longer supported on Intel processors all those ancient Mac apps will not run.
Re:Why is this even a question? (Score:2)
The idea is, to break backwards compatibility late enough that you can emulate the old machines as fast or faster than the original hardware the apps ran on. Ofcourse, this relies on people not writing apps for the old OS on new hardware.
Re:Why is this even a question? (Score:2)
Re:Why is this even a question? (Score:1)
I disagree. Maybe I just don't buy into the whole software is a service mechanic theme yet. I find however that I've peeved when I have to jump through hoops and hurdles to make a game that came out in the 1980s function on "state of the art" technology. When the OS starts requiring a quarter GB of ram just to run, I *DO* expect somewhere in there room for the 640k that ran everything in DOS back in the day. We're talking less than 1% of the whole sy
Not exactly a StarForce problem (Score:3, Informative)
Blaming this on StarForce specifically hardly seems fair unless there's a specific reason Microsoft are blocking it from loading ....
Re:Not exactly a StarForce problem (Score:2)
Re:Not exactly a StarForce problem (Score:2)
Re:Not exactly a StarForce problem (Score:2)
I do know that SF has essentially crippled CD burners until a complete reinstall of Windows was done.
Re:Not exactly a StarForce problem (Score:1)
Re:Not exactly a StarForce problem (Score:1)
I'm not sure that's the question (Score:4, Informative)
The only reason why I have a WIndows box is for the games (and if they ever get the virtualization stuff fast enough in OS X, then that goes too). It runs XP, and seems to work OK (except that Oblivion keeps shutting down. Shrug.)
With Vista, the two extra goodies are:
ESRB rating lockdown - as a Dad of three, that's all right. Personally, I find it easier not to buy my children games I don't feel they should be playing, or let them play it - but OK, it's a nice feature.
DirectX 10, which evidently will *only* be Vista (though I've yet to see a technological reason why it can't go into XP other than "We need a reason for you to upgrade to Vista).
DirectX 10 won't really be interesting to me until I upgrade the video card, and in a year with the Wii, and maybe a reduced-price PS3 purchase next year, I don't see myself upgrading to Vista then for DX10 until at least 2008 - which would be in time for the first service pack to come out to fix the things they missed in Vista.
So, for these two things, I'm not ready to shell out the $130 or whatever it will cost - but I guess it's good to know that the games that run under the gaming OS I use now will continue to run.
Re:I'm not sure that's the question (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I'm not sure that's the question (Score:2)
Re:I'm not sure that's the question (Score:2)
Re:I'm not sure that's the question (Score:2)
Re:I'm not sure that's the question (Score:2)
Re:I'm not sure that's the question (Score:2)
Re:I'm not sure that's the question (Score:2)
As I understand, in Vista you will not be able to run with full control over everything, even if your name is administrator. When you need more priviledges (for things like installing softwa
Re:I'm not sure that's the question (Score:2)
Re:I'm not sure that's the question (Score:2)
I'm guessing you can't make it blank. From everything I've heard, Vista is supposed to be heavy on security, and allowing blank admin passwords would pretty much make all that work useless.
Re:I'm not sure that's the question (Score:2)
The reasoning behind this is that adjusting the clock in windows modifies the system time instead of some user-specific timekeeper. Without that restriction some chronologically pedantic dingus could knock himself out of sync with the domain servers and will fail any kind of authentication attempts automatically. Granted this means absol
Re:I'm not sure that's the question (Score:2)
If you cannot understand why adjusting the system time needs elevated privileges, you're probably not qualified to be making any comments about security. At all.
Re:I'm not sure that's the question (Score:2)
Linux and OSX, both more secure OSs than Windows, allow users to change the time without root priviledges.
I'm sorry I don't understand your crazy Windows ways. Maybe I should look to your OS for guidelines on security, given it's great track record in that department. Ha!
[/sarcasm]
Actually, as I understand the reason that *nix lets
Re:I'm not sure that's the question (Score:2)
Quite arguable.
[...] allow users to change the time without root priviledges.
Linux certainly doesn't:
Unless, of course, you're root:
Re:I'm not sure that's the question (Score:2)
Also, Windows won't let your computer authenticate to a domain if your system time differs from the DCs time significantly.
Re:I'm not sure that's the question (Score:2)
I don't know if it applies in this particular case, but one difference between XP and Vista is that XP will complain if you try to install a non-certified driver. Vista won't let you install a non-certified driver at all. In case you're wondering, this is so that nothing that hasn't been vetted by Microsoft (i.e. is "Trusted") can run in kernel mode (and thereby circumvent Treacherous Computing).
In other words,
Re:I'm not sure that's the question (Score:1)
Re:I'm not sure that's the question (Score:2)
Most users don't know what administrative privileges mean, and couldn't care less about it. All they'll see is that Vista breaks stuff that used to work.
DirectX10 and the XP support cycle (Score:4, Interesting)
XP is still within the support cycle for MS. DirectX 10 could be seen as an upgrade or update for Windows OS's. Therefore, should MS not be supporting DX10 on XP?
I'd imagine that when Vista comes out, if things start requiring DX10 we may see a certain amount of political pressure against our favorite monopolist to backport proper support.
Re:I'm not sure that's the question (Score:2)
Re:I'm not sure that's the question (Score:1)
But you're forgetting the very valid question of "Will my games still work when Vista is finally foisted upon me?"
I have a Situation in my recent memory. We used to have this silly, awful, yet popular platform for games called MS-DOS. Then Microsoft absolutely brutally killed its support, when they grew tired of people asking "how the hell do I run Ultima VII?". Then there was a looo
Re:I'm not sure that's the question (Score:2)
If they can get away with making DX10 ONLY for Vista, then they can have XP Round 2 with people and try to make it harder to pirate. And besides, all those legitimate users will have to buy it, too.
Oh and the hardware required to support it.
Fun times for everyone but the consumer! As usual!
Re:I'm not sure that's the question (Score:2)
The problem lies in the new display driver model in Vista, which allows GPU's to be multitasked among other things. Porting it to XP probably wouldn't be a simple task, and I think it is a valid excuse to making DX10 Vista exclusive.
Re:I'm not sure that's the question (Score:2)
You don't think the completely new display subsystem and video driver model in Vista might have just a little bit to do with it ? Just maybe ?
I doubt it. (Score:4, Funny)
Will Vista Run Your Games?
No... because I'll never install it!
Re:I doubt it. (Score:1)
Of course, the majority of people around will tell you you MUST install the Enterprise Premium edition in order to play the latest and greatest World of Grand Theft Sims in 3D.
Vista is backward compatible...? (Score:2)
Re:Vista is backward compatible...? (Score:1)
People, if that were true, would not go to Vista, which means game studios wouldn't target DX10 either.
As it is, it will probably be a while before game studios target DX10; they actually do try to target the largest audience.
Re:Vista is backward compatible...? (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft will be pressuring developers to create Vista-only games to force gamers and consumers to upgrade to Vista. This happened during the transition from Windows 98 to Windows XP.
Re:Vista is backward compatible...? (Score:1)
A computer isn't a game console that just plug in and have work. People are more relucant to upgrade their OS than buying another black box. And yes, $600 for a game console, when you can have a computer that can play games AND do other tasks, is stupid.
Microsoft will be pressuring developers to create Vista-only games to force gamers and consumers to upgrade to Vista. This happened during the transition from Windows 98 to Wi
Re:Vista is backward compatible...? (Score:1)
Not all old games will work on Vista, a few new/popular ones will be patched after launch if there are more sales to be had or if there isn't a sequel planned for release soon. Pretty much the same story as on the 360 (not many games been added to their backward compatibility list since it first appeare
Re:Vista is backward compatible...? (Score:1)
You assume everyone is going to be buying a new PC in 2007. Most Joe Average's already have a PC. MS will end [microsoft.com] support for XP two years after Vista is available. XP has been getting more and more stable since its release. You act as if software rots, and more and more bugs will be introduced into a sys
Re:Vista is backward compatible...? (Score:1)
Sure not everyone will buy a PC at this time true, but new PCs will be sold with Vista and with PCs becoming a consumer item the speed at which they are replaced seems to be incr
Re:Vista is backward compatible...? (Score:2)
It wasn't a blantant "do this or die!" threat. It was more like a subtle "do this or die later!" threat. I was at Atari during that transition where I was handling the QA inventory. Within an year after XP came out, all the PCs were XP and only the compatibility lab had earlier versions of Windows. That wasn't necessarily a bad thing as XP support
It will NOT run my games (Score:2)
( cpu[1 x AMD Athlon(tm) XP 2800+ @ 2.09GHz] mem[Physical : 1012MB, 81.4% free] disk[Total : 300.21GB, 69.40% Free] video[nVidia Corporation NV31 [GeForce FX 5600XT] ) I can basicly give up all hopes of decent performance.
Re:It will NOT run my games (Score:1)
Vista's specs are high because they've factored in running antivirus, firewall, antispyware and other desktop stuff, particularly office. If you turn the eye-candy down it will pretty much run on any XP-capable machine. Besides, I would expect that while you're running a full screen game, windows doesn't draw the desktop etc anyway (I don't know for sure).
Re:It will NOT run my games (Score:2)
I keed! Sort of. Upgraded to a 5600 Ultra from a 4400 and hardly noticed any performance increase.
my question (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:my question (Score:2)
Third party games should still be DX9 for a while. After that... well screw it. Console only.
Re:my question (Score:2)
That's why I've given up on Valve. They're MS OS exclusive, and I really have no interest in supporting a company with such a narrow business plan.
id, Blizzard have the right approach when it comes to OS support.
Re:my question (Score:2)
Good advice. I'd never support a company whose business plan was so narrow as to only target ~95% - 99% of their potential market, either.
Re:my question (Score:2)
Well, MS had to do something (Score:2)
Vista has high hardware requirements and even needs a GPU upgrade for DX10. It just isn't looking very compelling right now. I've been around the block a few times with MS and OS upgrades starting with Win 3.1. There are always people saying "what does X offer over what we are already running?"
Re:Well, MS had to do something (Score:2)
Vista doesn't have particularly high hardware requirements (I was surprised they weren't higher). Even a mid-range PC from ~3 years ago is only likely to require a memory upgrade - (and even that's unlikely, in the case of an enthusiast) - and a "high end" PC ~5 years ago should be capable with a cheap video card upgrade.
That's assuming you want the fancy Aero interface, of course - if the "Classic" interface is good enough for you then anything back to about 7 y
If you think that that is bad read this (Score:1)
Not if, but when (Score:1)
DK
Re: (Score:1)
DX10 question (Score:3, Informative)
No, it won't. Thanks. Next question, please. (Score:2)
Nobody will run games on Vista except for the folks who buy a new machine where it's pre-installed. Since that'll be no earlier than 2008 what exactly is the point of testing an incomplete beta version now?
Gimmie some support for the older stuff too! (Score:1)
A gaming revolution? (Score:2)
It's not like there's some massive potential that can be unlocked by some new OS or related technology. The technology is fine -- now what we need is smart people writing good software. Arena.net's streaming software for Guild Wars? Now *that* is a revolution.
Re:I do not know if it will run my games or not bu (Score:1, Flamebait)
Re:I do not know if it will run my games or not bu (Score:2)
Baited myself? Quite.
Only on
Go ahead, mod into oblivion, I know you want to. Enjoy.
Re:I do not know if it will run my games or not bu (Score:1, Offtopic)
Re:I'm glad they confirmed this myth... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I'm glad they confirmed this myth... (Score:2, Funny)
Way to get moderated up for being a complete dipshit.
Re:I'm glad they confirmed this myth... (Score:1)
Re:I'm glad they confirmed this myth... (Score:2)
Re:I'm glad they confirmed this myth... (Score:1)
Look at some benchmarks and find some reviews for modern cards. Look for a game that taxes the systems: