The Downfall of the Thief Series 84
Via Kotaku, an interview at Evil Avatar about the bad end of the Thief series. They discuss the game series with designer Randy Smith, who details the fine points of the early games and the ignoble end for the trilogy of games. From the article: "I view Thief 3's more action-inclined gameplay as being more than necessary for a mass-market acceptance. The problems with Thief 3 were the same as the problems that plagued Deus Ex: Invisible War - it was the tech. The team scaled back the freeform design, incorporated loading zones, not to mention the unstable frame rate and other misc. issues derived from the technology. The gameplay was relatively solid by comparison."
Thief had redefined the FPS (Score:5, Insightful)
It also rewarded you for just sneaking around, stealing and not getting caught. At the time, it was the only game in the FPS category that you could complete without killing anyone. Even now, I haven't seen a game where you could do that.
The one thing that disappointed me the most was that no one else got into the thief genre. Once the company went belly up, I haven't seen a game that created the same tense, yet immersive environment that Thief 1 and 2 (haven't played 3).
Re:Thief had redefined the FPS (Score:2, Informative)
Emphasis mine... Strange, as I have Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory at home. The only way to get 100% complete on any level is to not kill anybody while still completing all objectives.
Re:Thief had redefined the FPS (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Thief had redefined the FPS (Score:2)
Re:Thief had redefined the FPS (Score:2)
Re:Thief had redefined the FPS (Score:2)
Re:Thief had redefined the FPS (Score:2, Interesting)
All of the Splinter Cell games have been that way. Also, don't forget the Hitman games. While they do allow you the option of running and gunning through the game (nearly impossible in Splinter Cell, impossible in Thief), you can only get Silent Assassin rankings by leaving no trace. That means not killing anybody but your
Re:Thief had redefined the FPS (Score:2)
Re:Thief had redefined the FPS (Score:2)
Re:Thief had redefined the FPS (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Thief had redefined the FPS (Score:2)
Re:Thief had redefined the FPS (Score:2)
Maybe you would enjoy Cold War [coldwar-game.com]. One of its modes is pacifist where you can't kill anyone ... which adds a certain edge to sneaking around distracting Russian guards with AK47s. Best of all, it's available for Linux [linuxgamepublishing.com] as well as Windows.
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Re:Thief had redefined the FPS (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm still waiting for that FPS that puts you in a trench in WWI, or charging over the top of a trench into machine gun fire. Why hasn't this been done yet?
WWI FPS? (Score:2)
The gameplay is too linear, everybody is a camper, and each level lasts three to five seconds.
Re:Thief had redefined the FPS (Score:2)
when I played it, I was so used to the "classical" fps approach that I killed every single enemy...
Typical (Score:2, Insightful)
It is funny he mentions Deus Ex, as I loved the original game and was left extremely disapointed with it's incarnation. Not only did they lose their extremely strong original fanbase that helped to build them, but they lost the mainstream appeal they were so desperately hoping to cash in on.
Re:Typical (Score:2)
Disclaimer: I program games for a living.
The way the games business works these days, there's a very significant chance that compromising their vision and integrity was required for the developer to be able to make the game in the first place.
It's very easy for the developer to end up handcuffed into making compromises they (obviously) would not want to make because when it really comes down to it, the publisher
Re:Typical (Score:1)
Re:Typical (Score:3, Insightful)
Game programmers deserve to get paid, and game companies deserve to make a profit. It's very easy to sit back from a distance and preach to others about integrity. It's not so easy to be the guy running a game company that's barely breaking even because artistic vision is more important than commercial success.
I very much wish that Thief as originally conceived had sold better. We'd all be seeing more games like it now if it did. LGS managed to put two games out according to their original vision -- before
Re:Typical (Score:1)
Integrity, vision, and not making games for the lowest common denominator are what push gaming (and any industry) forward.
Re:Typical (Score:2)
Integrity, vision, and not making games for the lowest common denominator are what push gaming (and any industry) forward.
And ignoring commercial success is a recipe for going out of business. You don't get mch innovation or forward movement that way either.
Look, I'd prefer it if the real world could work in this naive, idealistic way myself. I much prefer something like Thief (or whatever would follow it) to the latest finely-rendered twicthy gorefest. Unfortunately, it doesn't and it doesn't do much
Re:Typical (Score:1)
Practically every great game ever made was done so by people not content with the current industry.
Re:Typical (Score:1)
Re:Typical (Score:1)
Re:Typical (Score:1)
Like it or not, it's a numbers game because it costs money to do the development. It's not all focus groups and market trends (and you denigrate these like they don't work.) What it sounds lik
Re:Typical (Score:2)
No, realism.
Investors don't throw their money away to produce something that will only yield them marginal returns that don't reflect the risk. In the case in point, the Thief series had a track record. It had already shown itself to be hugely innovative in terms of gameplay (and sound modeling, but not graphics or physics) and capable of attracting a small devoted following. See thief-thecircle.com [thief-thecircle.com] to see just how devoted -- the fan-made mission community for Thief 1 and 2 is still going strong after all
Deus Ex 2... (Score:4, Interesting)
I really don't know what they were smoking when they decided to make that game and call it a sequel to perhaps one of the best FPS/RPG games ever made (IMO).
I almost cried when I played it, I was that disappointed.
At least Thief 3 kinda kept to the theme of the Thief series. Though I still think Thief 2 was the best - The city level when you're heading across rooftops etc was awesome...
Damn, I gotta dig that game out and play it now.
Re:Deus Ex 2... (Score:4, Interesting)
Yeah, I felt the same way. Deus Ex is among my top 3 favorite games of all time. IW was just a horrible, dumb, consoley mess.
I haven't felt so cheated by a game since then, that is until I found out about the new Shadowrun game that Microsoft is putting out. Turns out it's a tragic abuse of the Shadowrun license. It must have been designed by a bunch of retarded monkeys to screw up so badly with a license that has so much potential.
Re:Deus Ex 2... (Score:1)
The Thief series defined immersive gameplay, and the cutscenes were the best in any game ever. Period.
Re:Deus Ex 2... (Score:2)
Re:Deus Ex 2... (Score:3, Interesting)
http://www.thief2x.com/ [thief2x.com]
Re:Deus Ex 2... (Score:2)
Runs great on my system (P4 2.5GHz, AGP Radeon x1600), which isn't exactly "modern" but isn't ridiculously old either.
Re:Deus Ex 2... (Score:2)
I used to play Thief 2 on my dual P3 666MHz system while ripping CDs. I'd set Thief 2 to use one CPU, and CDex to use the other. Worked like a charm, and was a very enjoyable way to get all of my audio CDs online.
This should be the fall of Deus Ex AND Theif. (Score:1)
I wouldn't be so angry if I hadn't spent $100 bucks on both of those POS.
When I finally got my hands on some hardware that could run DX:IW, you know what I d
The Tech? No. (Score:2)
"I view Thief 3's more action-inclined gameplay as being more than necessary for a mass-market acceptance."
Exactly. Fans can put up with things like the loading behavior mentioned. Compromises to game play, however, aren't usually accepted. This seems to hold true for the Deus Ex sequel, as well.
Re:The Tech? No. (Score:1)
Article Summary (Score:2, Insightful)
Same goes for Deus Ex : IW
Re:Developers Today: (Score:1)
Re:Developers Today: (Score:1)
T3 did have it's issues. (Score:5, Interesting)
So when 3 came out and I snagged it, I was a bit disappointed. For starters, the memory limitations of doing a dual pc/console development, meant that the levels felt... cramped. This was in sharp, sharp contrast to the previous two games that were famous for larger, more sprawling/free form level design. Was a big *ouch* to say the least.
Secondly, the first two games had quite a few places where you could swim under water for a variety of reasons. It was fairly important as a gameplay bit. In the 3rd one, I walked into ankle deep water, and the game promptly informed me that I had died/passed out, and put me straight into jail
And lastly, the climbing gloves... First two games had you using what were called 'rope arrows'.(Arrow, rope tied to it, you get the idea) Also was a fairly useful/important gameplay feature, for a variety of designed for and not designed for puzzles/situations. Was an awesome feature. In the 3rd? They scrapped it entirely, citing issues getting it to work with the new physics engine. So we got... climbing gloves! Which were only useful in one instance, and pretty much a waste of time for the rest of the game.(The one instance was enforced, you *had* to use them to continue in the game)
The only thing that saved Thief3 from itself, was the Cradle level. If it wasn't for that, I'd say it was a waste of money. But, I still have a copy, just for that level really.
Just my 2cents.
Re:T3 did have it's issues. (Score:1)
Scariest. Level. Ever.
Climbing gloves/Relative volume/Cradle/Shadows (Score:1)
One improvement from Thief 2 was *I think* relative volume levels. In Thief 1
And the levels did feel cramped (Score:1)
Great Games, Interview Not So Much (Score:2)
This interview, however, seems rather sparse and hurried...I kept waiting for more and better information to no avail. Certainly enough has been written about the fate of Looking Glass and Thief that this writing is unlikely to add much to the mix.
Minor Drawbacks (Score:3, Interesting)
The only thing that I found lacking was that the city was very one dimensional and lacking in variety. Sure you could do some side exploring, but it was nothing compared the free form experience of the elder scrolls games. You were lucky if there was more than one road to take to get somewhere. The ability to explore and do minor missions in a 'full sized' version of the city would have made the game much better. It seemed like that was what they were going for, but had to abandon that for design reasons.
Re:Minor Drawbacks (Score:1)
I can just imagine a huge city built like NYC with the gameplay of TES. Have some plot that you start to uncover as you play through the game. Build connections and fences. Can I get a paper towel?
Consolification (Score:5, Insightful)
I believe the term they're looking for is "consolification." That's when the publisher of a game series that is traditionally for the PC (and for good reason) decides to focus on consoles due to their much larger audience, forcing the developer to dumb down the game both for the LCD of said market and to fit within the limits of the console itself (especially the controls). People complained about this a lot when Thief 3, Deus Ex: Invisible War, and other bastardizations of PC franchises were being released a couple of years ago. Now-a-days that sort of thing has slackened off a lot, but we'll probably start hearing about it again when Halo 3 comes out.
Rob
Re:Consolification (Score:2)
Re:Consolification (Score:1)
Argh. You're making me want to play it all over again... And i've already finshed it three times. Too bad the last few levels are a bit boring compared to the first.
Maybe I'm weird, but... (Score:1)
At least, I liked the story. The gameplay was inferior to Deus Ex, and the whole thing was shorter and a little more straightforward, but in some ways it had an equivalent atmosphere. I'd still love to see the whole thing (DX1 + DX2) done as a movie, or novelized. It's fantastic escapist entertainment.
In any case, the loading zones in both Thief3 and DX2 never bothered me. The framerate issues were a bit more of a problem, but I was willing to reduce graphic levels to play throug
Re:Maybe I'm weird, but... (Score:2)
Gotta disagree on this one. Sure, HL benefitted greatly from its online multiplayer community, but that was almost a completely separate thing from the game itself, wh
Guess I stated my point poorly. (Score:1)
I am fairly sure that the sequel games in both of these series, however, did well with fans of the original games. I suspect that their downfall came because the
Quote (Score:2)
Interesting points of view (Score:1)
I liked thief and thief 2, didn't play thief 3.
And actually LIKED Invisible War (reminded me of a good System Shock 2 which generally sucked).
I also particularly liked the Thief mod for UT (the first UT the one that was the tournament mode only... came out about the same time as Quake3 tournament...).
The fact that I liked the Thief mod for UT a bit better than thief tells me the technology side is pretty important to me (it was much better technically than the thief engine
Attention blasphemer (Score:2)
I must request of you that you immediately tear up your Geek/Gamer identification card(s), turn in your gaming mouse or mice, shut off all entertainment devices within your household, and wait near the front door. Our specialists will be arriving shortly to take you away for evaluation and re-education.
Sincerely, Gamers everywhere
Re:Interesting points of view (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Interesting points of view (Score:2)
Re:Interesting points of view (Score:2)
Deus Ex was really a top notch game - it should be an essential study piece in game schools. A few other favourites of mine were Doom and Quake, Star Control 2, Halo I/II, used to love Dune II, early Warcraft, one of the Heroes games, etc.
Recently gave Half-Life II a shot on Xbox (PC is crammed with work stuff) and can see why people like that series - great art, world design and sound effects.
Downfall? Tell that to the fan modders. (Score:3, Interesting)
As a fan of the series since the first game, I enjoyed Thief 3 despite the problems with it. The story was fun (the Cradle was easily the highlight of the game), Garrett was still Garrett, and being able to roam the city was fun. I honestly didn't mind the loading zones so much. And without giving away any spoilers, I found the ending to be a perfect "full circle" moment for the series.
But ask any fan of the series and you know that T3 is not 'the end' of the Thief games. Look up the phenomenal T2X fan game based on Thief 2. It has new characters, new movies, great new missions, and feels like a natural addition to the series. There is also an extensive network of fan mission builders and modders out there still creating new content for these games.
We're still sneaking around out here. :)
Please sign this petition to keep Thief alive (Score:1, Informative)
Worthless weapons (Score:1)
Re:Worthless weapons (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Worthless weapons (Score:2)
Re:Worthless weapons (Score:1)
Re:Worthless weapons (Score:2)
Re:Worthless weapons (Score:2)
Only if the arrow is fired from a longbow. If you use anything less, then the arrow can easily bounce off properly smithed armor. Just remember that good steel plate armor can even protect against an arquebus [wikipedia.org].
The purpose of the short bow used in Theif is to fire the special-issue ammunition, mainly because using regular arrows is not recommended at the highest difficulty setting. In particular, it is designed to fire:
- Water
Not really (Score:2)
Bow? Kill? (Score:2)
Thief 1 Demo (Score:1)
Re:good concept, but ... (Score:1)
I _highly_ recommend you to play Thief 1 and 2 through the end. You will be well rewarded.
Am I the only one who loved thief3 (Score:3, Interesting)
Sure you had the loading zones, but the overall feeling of the game was much better.
Re:Am I the only one who loved thief3 (Score:2)
This new Thief was made for players that like getting carried through the game like it's a movie with buttons (marketing morons call these people mainstream gamers. It's the 'gamers' part that they have wrong). The first two were made for players that enjoy the possibility th
I felt a bit claustrophobic in Thief 3 (Score:1)
The rest I didn't mind (even the loading levels). However, I wished there was a level that could compare to the scale of "Song of the Caverns" in Thief Gold, or "Life of the Party" in Thief 2. None of the levels in T3 felt as grand as the two aformentio
Thief 3, a downfall? (Score:1)
Extraordinary comment from Randy Smith (Score:2)
Honestly, the stealth gameplay chemistry of Thief 1 didn't truly come together till very close to ship, possibly as close as a few weeks. Although we all had our suspicions, it wasn't until then that it was clear which types of content would be a good match for the game systems
This is an incredible statement. Thief 1 to me has always been an example of a game design done right from the very beginning. For the designer to say that the "stealth gameplay chemistry" only came together right a