Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Gamers Don't Want Grief

Zonk posted more than 8 years ago | from the hard-to-argue-with-that dept.

177

An article at the Guardian Gamesblog looks at the frustrations of online griefers. They talk about some of the unpleasant activities online gamers engage in, and briefly discuss the future of dealing with griefers. Scott Jennings and Richard Bartle chime in with ideas on how things might be handled. From the article: "'I expect we'll see more and more self-government,' says Scott Jennings, game developer and author of Massively Multiplayer Games For Dummies. 'The reason is fairly obvious if not particularly noble: it's less expensive for game companies to have their customers police themselves than hire people to do it. The trick, and why you don't see it generally, is to construct self-policing schemes in such a way that they don't enable unscrupulous players to use them as tools of grief.'" Darniaq disagrees, on the basis that players just don't care about immersion.

cancel ×

177 comments

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

Art imitates Life (2, Insightful)

TripMaster Monkey (862126) | more than 8 years ago | (#15550856)


From TFA:

The trick, and why you don't see it generally, is to construct self-policing schemes in such a way that they don't enable unscrupulous players to use them as tools of grief.'"


Yeah...we have the same problem in real life [alternet.org] .

Re:Art imitates Life (2, Funny)

CSZeus (593470) | more than 8 years ago | (#15550939)

Wiretapping != griefing.

G.I.F.T. [penny-arcade.com] is probably more accurate.

Re:Art imitates Life (1)

teasea (11940) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551210)

Wiretapping != griefing

True. The NSA doesn't do it for the Schadenfreude [wikipedia.org] . I don't believe they feel much at all.

Re:Art imitates Life (1)

RingDev (879105) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551143)

The problem with self policing in most MMOs is that players have limited resources in dealing with griefers. Atleast in open PvP games anyone can assemble a group and kill a griefer. Although, in an open PvP game griefers have more ability to grief others. In limited PvP games or PvE only games, there is no way to punish a kill stealer, agro puller, or loot thief.

-Rick

Re:Art imitates Life (3, Funny)

voice_of_all_reason (926702) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551236)

That's why all pay MMORPGS should make the billing address of the credit card they're charging visible when you legend/finger/whois another player. They can even throw in other stats contributed by the community in order to facilitate RL pkills.

Joe Smith the Hobbit Deathmaster
123 Fraud St
New York, New York, 10138
+5% to the Obesity skill
+3% to Yu Gi Oh cards skill
0 points in "Times Laid" stat
Weak against: twinkies, sunlight, chores. Key to back door under the mat.

Re:Art imitates Life (1)

DanNZN (906522) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551855)

"That's why all pay MMORPGS should make the billing address of the credit card they're charging visible when you legend/finger/whois another player. They can even throw in other stats contributed by the community in order to facilitate RL pkills." Gee, that I am sure no one would think of exploiting THAT for griefing. No thanks, I do not think I want my address puplished to every asshat in WoW.

Forget it (5, Interesting)

Azarael (896715) | more than 8 years ago | (#15550964)

Bah, I have already have enough of online gaming idiocy. Even when you do get the majority of gamers to keep an eye on their peers, you get the exact opposite problem. Pedantic tight asses start running their servers or games like a police state and playing favorites with their cronies. Last time I checked, no one was buying a game called Fascism Tycoon.

All that I ask is that studios give gamers tools to isolate themselves from having to deal with jerks. You are not going to get rid of them and probably the best that you can do is fence them off where they can't cause as much trouble. Otherwise you will spend far too much trouble on an ineffective solution when that time would have been better spent creating a better game.

Re:Forget it (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15551204)

Last time I checked, no one was buying a game called Fascism Tycoon.

Is that like Railroad Tycoon, except the trains run on time? ;-)

Re:Forget it (1)

hal9000(jr) (316943) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551469)

Yeah brother. /ignore all is a wonderful thing.

I remember while moo'ing years back being amazed at how people refused to use the ignore commands when they were being griefed. I used it alot and happily.

Re:Forget it (1)

Das Modell (969371) | more than 8 years ago | (#15552521)

I used to have a crazy amount of people on my WoW ignore list. At one point a massive amount of people started talking Greek in general chat. I just ignored all of them. It got very quiet after that.

Re:Forget it (5, Funny)

coyotecult (647958) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551473)

Last time I checked, no one was buying a game called Fascism Tycoon.

All of the sudden I have an intense desire to acquire such a game.

Don't get me wrong, but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15550966)

Dont get me wrong, I hate greivers on my online games as much as the next guy. But sometimes, they are what make things really interesting. What would EQ have been like if I never had to watch out for rolling trains and holding down camps and such? Just wouldnt be the same experience...

Check it! (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15550968)

"'The trick, and why you don't see it generally, is to construct self-policing schemes in such a way that they don't enable unscrupulous players to use them as tools of grief.'"


You mean like moderation or meta-moderation is?

Mod parent down! (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15550988)

He's on to us.

Re:Check it! (1)

voice_of_all_reason (926702) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551423)

The trick, and why you don't see it generally, is to construct self-policing schemes in such a way that they don't enable unscrupulous players to use them as tools of grief.

Because no one ever gets scammed on ebay...

Just saying it doesn't entirely work. I don't know the answer either, though.

And I thought (0, Offtopic)

The_Shadows (255371) | more than 8 years ago | (#15550989)

I thought that, by the title, this was in response to the article about Jack Thompson's video game bill being passed.

Doesn't he provide more than enough grief for all gamers?

Re:And I thought (1)

Azarael (896715) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551015)

He's also a perfect example of why self governance in MPOGs is not such a great idea.

Re:And I thought (1)

faloi (738831) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551050)

Nah. Jack Thompson worries me and makes me sorta laugh. It worrys me when people with federal power [gamespot.com] start deciding to impose federal laws.

Re:And I thought (2, Funny)

ClamIAm (926466) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551436)

Holy shit, Jack Thompson is just a griefer! Except instead of getting the banhammer, people listen to him :(

And in other news: (2, Insightful)

Burlap (615181) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551014)

The sky is blue, water is wet, and smoking is bad for you.

And now, the weather...

Re:And in other news: (1)

LunaticTippy (872397) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551138)

My sky is grey. My water is frozen. Smoking can help people with Parkinson's.

Your weather may differ.

Re:And in other news: (2, Informative)

Valdrax (32670) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551760)

Smoking can help people with Parkinson's.

Actually, that's not true. Smokers (and alcoholics and other forms of addicts) have a significantly reduced chance of developing Parkinson's in the first place, but there's no studies that suggest that taking up smoking can reduce the symptoms of PD once you've contracted it.

It's a correlation and not a causation. Current suspicions are that addiction and reduced risk of PD have a shared root cause -- elevated dopamine levels in the brain.

At any rate, lighting up to prevent Parkinson's is a little like engaging in preventative chemotherapy.

Re:And in other news: (1)

Some_Llama (763766) | more than 8 years ago | (#15552273)

"Current suspicions are that addiction and reduced risk of PD have a shared root cause -- elevated dopamine levels in the brain."

Sweet!! I always heard that my chian smoking and heroin abuse were bad for me.. well at least i won't be getting Parkinsons!

Re:And in other news: (1)

WilliamSChips (793741) | more than 8 years ago | (#15552692)

The grey is probably either a shade of blue or blue beneath, even frozen water is wet(dry ice isn't water), and read sibling post about Parkinson's.

the weather ... (1)

SABME (524360) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551355)

Winds light to variable; lighter in the daytime and darker at night.
Back to you, Jim.

He who hosts the server governs (1)

pjgeer (106721) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551027)

Any influence must come from lobbying the entity running the servers. The griefer you jack today might be the hall monitor tomorrow (or yesterday, or 30 secs from now). Perhaps a bunch of geewhiz posts will follow lauding the joys of community self-government in MMO. Nevertheless, all you'll create is a bunch of lobbyists. As for Darniaq's argument... The thrill of exploring a open-ended world in order to make real-world financial gain must be tempered by the knowledge that if someone at the top decides they don't like you, out you go with all you've worked for. At least when you're fired from a real job they have trouble taking what you earned six months ago. But that's the default experience when your account gets stuffed because you called the wrong person a tool by accident.

Griefing annoyance (4, Interesting)

zerocool^ (112121) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551070)

I play eve, and in the sector of space that I hang out in, there's a highly organized, well skilled, tech 2 equiped group of pirates that fly around looking for kills.

They're not there to try and claim territory, they're not there to complete a mission objective. They're there to get easy kills. One guy in particular has been playing since 2003 (meaning, almost all the skills he could ever want are trained to the max, giving him lots of bonuses), and is flying the fastest ship in the game. All he does is look for solo miners and people in shuttles and frigates to gank. He always runs when there's any sort of resistance.

I guess I just don't understand it. I don't get why people would want to do that. Spend all that time in game learning skills and earning money, only to never engage in anything challenging. Only to cause problems for people whom you really have nothing against. It just doesn't make sense, and I can't see how it's fun.

~Wx

Re:Griefing annoyance (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15551228)

I don't get why people would want to do that.

[AC Raises hand] Because a majority of people, given internet anonymity and no consequences, are assholes??

Re:Griefing annoyance (1)

Austerity Empowers (669817) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551594)

Maybe, but there are plenty of people in real life who spend their time harming easy prey.

Re:Griefing annoyance (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15552235)

You're an asshole for saying that.

Don't "Grief" the Pirate! (2, Insightful)

Dareth (47614) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551238)

You want the Pirate dead bad enough, commission a fleet or another bad ass ship to go kill him.

He is just playing the game by the rules. You don't like the rules, don't play!

Re:Don't "Grief" the Pirate! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15551529)

You want the Pirate dead bad enough, commission a fleet or another bad ass ship to go kill him.

Couple problems with that. You can't have a posse there all the time, the guy stated that he runs from any resistance - he could just log off his grief character and log on his miner and watch the area till the posse leaves. He probably picks targets who don't have time and resources to get a posse together on short notice. Basically it comes down to this guy getting his kicks ruining the game for other people, it just costs too much to get revenge on him.

Thats the whole problem with griefers, they make the game fun and challenging when they are a rare menace - but the anonymous culture of the internet has made griefing in all it's forms very very attractive to anti-social young men. There's just too many griefers in open ended games.

Re:Don't "Grief" the Pirate! (1)

Rifter13 (773076) | more than 8 years ago | (#15552309)

It definately seems to attact that kind of anti-social young men... that really just need a good solid shot to the crotch, every time they grief others. Even if it is "in the rules" an ass is an ass. Don't defend them.

Re:Don't "Grief" the Pirate! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15552421)

Even if it is "in the rules" an ass is an ass.

The problem is that the boundary isn't really clear. Is a max level character who happens to encounter a hostile allignment newbie and kills him a griefer? How bout a higher level friend who shows up to kick some ass for his low level buddies who are outnumbered? All of those are not only within the rules, but intended normal play. Once you step outside the relatively simple question of pvp combat you have a whole host of other questions - agressive goods pricing (the sort that would probably be illegal in the real world), resource acquisition, loot distribution, blacklisting, picking people to fill spots on a team, and so on. Anything that can become competitive creates the possibility that someone is going to lose out.

The term griefing is often applied to activities that aren't really griefing imo. Extrememly anti-social behavior in online-games can cause a lot of problems, but I think we need to really figure out exactly what the term 'griefing' means before we can try to limit those problems.

Re:Griefing annoyance (5, Interesting)

A-Z0-9$_.+!*'(),-, p (982701) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551289)

I play EVE and constantly grief people. Why? Because I can truly play out the part of a space pirate. I'm playing the game to have fun -- and living the life of a space pirate... = fun. I suppose in some sense of the words, I'm not a griefer. I don't go out of my way to pick on noobies, nor do I run from a fair fight -- but I sure don't avoid new players and I have a strong sense of self-preservation. There is no reward without risk. And this is where EVE succeeds completely. No other game has such harsh penalties. What EVE brings to the world of MMO's is truly lacking in every other game out there. When you win -- you REALLY win, when you lose, you REALLY lose. On top of that, players are MORE then able to gang up and take charge of a situation. I enjoy this system, win OR lose. If you want your hand held by GM's while you play a cute, safe game -- fine by me. But I want to play something that's *hard* and has a point. Don't like it? Don't play.

Game Over - Insert Coin? (3, Funny)

tepples (727027) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551949)

No other game has such harsh penalties. What EVE brings to the world of MMO's is truly lacking in every other game out there. When you win -- you REALLY win, when you lose, you REALLY lose.

I have never played the game, and Wikipedia's article isn't much to go on, but does that include losing one's account if one performs poorly in the game?

Re:Game Over - Insert Coin? (3, Informative)

SirSlud (67381) | more than 8 years ago | (#15552599)

No, but eve definately has some of the highest penalties ...

Basically (and I'm sure there are some corrections here, I only have about 4 months playing experience) if your ship is destroyed, its destroyed. You need to buy another one. You can buy insurance, but that only pays for slightly less than a new ship; all the cargo, weapons, hardware, ammo that you had is gone.

Better yet, once your ship is destroyed, you end up in a pod. You can be 'podded' (ie, the pod is destroyed, and your character dies) and your character is restored to the skill level you had when you last cloned your character. I've had my ship destroyed twice, and both times it takes minimum a few days to get 'back up and running', and its a HUGE pain in the ass.

WoW has nothing on Eve in terms of the true pvp experience, and guildwars is what many seasoned Eve players would call a 'Carebear' party. A carebear is somebody that sticks to high security space (where pirates generally can't operate because they get hounded by powerful NPC police) and plays the game to avoid as much combat as possible.

Eve is freaking cool ... it really does create that sense of danger, fear, and paranoia that should be a part of most mmorpgs, if you choose to participate and live life on the edge. Reprocussions for getting your ship destroyed or being podded make keeping your eye on your radar, warp-in message list, etc ... I don't play mmorpgs much, but Eve has easily been the 'coolest' experience because it feels the most real in terms of risk/reward and giving the player real options to progress quickly based on skill and cunning or keep it safe and easy if they're just there for the social side.

To answer your original post, no, you can't lose your account for playing poorly, but you can essentially fail to progress at all and in some cases lose ALOT of time if you risk too much. Thats a cool concept, and one other games really havn't created a suitable game system to explore in a satisfying manner.

Re:Griefing annoyance (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15551369)

Maybe he wants to play a goddamn PIRATE, you pussy.

Re:Griefing annoyance (5, Interesting)

DarkGreenNight (647707) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551901)

Ok, lets explain this for non-EvE players.

You are in a not-secured zone, it's security rating probably going from 0.1 to 0.4. In a secured zone (security from 0.5 to 1.0) if a player attacked another police would come and kill the griefer (avoiding destruction from police attack is cheating). This does not mean that secure zones are secure, simply that you have lots to lose if you attack.

The pirate loses security rating attacking you, that means he is not able to enter secure zones. There are ways to improve it, though. Zone security 0.0 would mean that no security rating is lost, but these zones are usualy home of aliances.

A three year old character, even if it's the only one trained in that account, does not have all the skills he wants to max, but probably he has enough to fly that ship perfectly, it it's requirements are not much, and for what you say it seems an interceptor, a ship that you can more than confortably fly in 6 months if you are focused. Training for all the skills to the max would mean more than 10 years, in real time, training.

Tech 2 ships are expensive, much more than what they give you when they blow your ship (yes, in EvE you can insure ships). And that is not counting the tech 2 equipment they may have, as equipment is not insured.

So now we have some competent players, with expensive to replace gear, attacking in a PvP zone, easy kills. Why? because a hard kill could mean their destruction, and that's a good reason not to engage what you can't win. But if they got near you you could jam them (ensnare them) so they could not flee, all you need is some basic equipment. Web (slow) them too, unless you want them to go out of your jamming range and flee. So you have options.

What can they win? A miner can leave equipment worth as much as a ship of these they are flying, people in shuttles and frigates could be transporting great treasures that don't use much cargo space.

And they teach you to be alert in a PvP zone, and everywhere too, just in case.

I am a person who spends all his time in secure zones, because I don't like many risks, but I accept them, and learn from my errors. The most exciting time I had in a game was being pursued by a pirate across a system, he in a big but surprisingly fast ship, me in a small but not so fast one. I barely managed to escape, but that adrenaline rush was so great...

A last explanation for non-EvErs, a three year old player can lose to a determined small group of newbies. So it's not like those other games were a level 60 can kill hundreds of level 5. Use what the system offers to you and have fun.

Re:Griefing annoyance (1)

vertinox (846076) | more than 8 years ago | (#15552028)

I guess I just don't understand it. I don't get why people would want to do that. Spend all that time in game learning skills and earning money, only to never engage in anything challenging. Only to cause problems for people whom you really have nothing against. It just doesn't make sense, and I can't see how it's fun.

Hrm... Maybe it is something called human nature... *flash back* Lets ask people throughout time why the pick on the little guys.

So guys... Tell us the truth on why you go around killing helpless people?

Roman Soldier: Well... It releaves stress and I dunno... Its kind of makes me feel like a man when I whip the slaves a bit.

Viking Warrior: Oh... I do it for the screaming women. You know... The lamenting. Then I get to kick the village ideo arround a bit.

Christian Crusader: I dunno... We get bored sitting here in the desert. So toss a heathen child or two off the wall. Teaches em good it does! Also we take bets on long the brat takes to hit the ground.

German Panzer Commander: If I had to fight zez people that fought back it wouldn't bee fun! Das would be no good if they started shooting back! Do you know how much one of deez pzners cost? It would take months of mein salary! I think it will be the safest route to just kill those who don't fight back! Those french batards just surrender anyways so we the suprize on zee french tanker faces are so funny when we shoot them anyways even with the white flags going up!

Re:Griefing annoyance (1)

WilliamSChips (793741) | more than 8 years ago | (#15552702)

french batards
The French are pieces of bread?

Re:Griefing annoyance (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15552112)

All he does is look for solo miners and people in shuttles and frigates to gank. He always runs when there's any sort of resistance.

Having played this game, I understand that painting a large target on yourself and firing on larger ships and groups would be stealthy and good practice compared to what you're saying.

Solo mining? Shuttles, frigates? In low-sec space? The way the game works creates a world where this should be impossible, and the elegance of it is that the forces in place are not GM created or AI, but people. So to make the game fun, somebody's got to do it. What you call "griefing" is actually encouraged by the game economics. Not that this is easy on newbies, but it is a neat world.

Griefers - who they are and why they do it. (5, Insightful)

Banner (17158) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551076)

Griefers tend really to fall into two main catragories: Children, and people who want attention.

The first you can get rid of easily enough by putting in age limits. That will get rid of the large majority, but most children aren't very good at griefing unless they have some sort of script they downloaded to help them along. They're really just annoyances.

It's the ones in the later catagory who are the worst cases, and in many instances their anti-social behavior takes place in real life as well (Any one here know about sibe?) These people do these things online because they know they can cause a fuss, and hopefully even hurt people, without themselves being subject to any penalties or pain. And they gain all sorts of attention and notoriety for it.

How do you deal with it? Well communities -can't- deal with it if they have no clear and easy method to kick the person off the system immediately, or at least eject them from the area of play. There are ways of dealing with this beyond having some sort of game master around keeping an eye on things, but lets be honest: We're paying for the game, the company should have some sort of GM around to deal with these people!

It's like real life, we have police and courts for a reason. Grievers can quickly destroy a game and lose you customers. Part of customer service means dealing with them. Yes these people once ejected can come back, but if it's costing money only the most dysfunctional or vicious will keep returning. Then it does become a legal matter, though in many cases those people are going to end up in jail for real life criminal matters unrelated to the game.

But the sad fact is this problem will never go away, crime is as old as society itself. There are always people who want to steal what you have, hurt you, or just muck everything up for everyone else. When I have to ban these people from the system I deal with it is amazing to me that they often have NO IDEA at all of why they're in trouble, they just can't understand why it's not alright for them to do whatever they want and so what if they hurt and abuse other people in the process. Or worse yet, get pissed at me for having the nerve to stop them. I have also found that if you catch trouble makers when they first show up, and give them a taste of the punishments instore if they continue, that many will toe the line from there on. But that usually only works with the younger players who will still respond to discipline.

In short, there is no easy solution and trying to pan it all off on the players will never work satisfactorily unless you have a method for giving some of those players power and making sure they don't abuse it. I think this is probably the hardest part of MMO game design today.

Re:Griefers - who they are and why they do it. (1)

Khyber (864651) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551112)

Sibe - Husky Sibe??

Re:Griefers - who they are and why they do it. (1)

Banner (17158) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551231)

The one and only. I think there are entries for him on both Wikipedia and encyclopedia dramatica these days. I've also heard he gets out of jail in September.

Furry freaktards. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15551798)

You furries. Don't you realize how hilarious your antics are?

Sibe fucked dogs before he went on to sharing your precious pornography. He's one of your mistakes. Don't try to connect him to gamers or this discourse, you're all a special kind of screwed up.

Re:Furry freaktards. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15552387)

???

I know sibe bugs them the most, but they're not they only people he bothers.

And you have an unhealthy fixation if you came all the way over here to post that about this. I advise therapy.

Re:Griefers - who they are and why they do it. (1)

daniil (775990) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551474)

Attention-seeking isn't necessarily a bad thing. It is, in fact, completely natural for a human to seek for attention. The real problem here is that it's difficult to enforce social norms by technical means (Slashdot is a good example of this) and some people like to take advantage of this, of the fact that it's only a game.

However, this doesn't mean that griefing is necessarily bad. In many cases, the line between what's acceptable and what isn't can be rather blurry. Something I might find acceptable (the GHSC case, for example) you might consider to be less so.

Re:Griefers - who they are and why they do it. (2, Informative)

WilliamSChips (793741) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551484)

Age limits are bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. They do nothing but force kids to lie about their age. Look at MySpace for an example of that.

Age limits are good (1, Flamebait)

Banner (17158) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551622)

No, if you have to verify with a credit card the age limits work quite well, and if a parent lets their child use thier card to get on, you can sue them for fraud. Seen it done. And while yes some children will sneak through, you can usually quickly identify them by their behavoir and get them kicked out.

There is a reason society limits the rights of children, and I myself prefer not to deal with someone online who is a child unless I know that upfront. I also do not like to play online games with children in them, mainly because their behavior is often obnoxious and they usually have no social skills. Like I really want to hear some 14 year old trash talking to me.

Re:Griefers - who they are and why they do it. (1)

hal9000(jr) (316943) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551515)

In short, there is no easy solution and trying to pan it all off on the players will never work satisfactorily

sure there is a solution. On-line games should have an ignore list that lets you blacklist players so you can't see, hear, or be affected by someone actions. It's very effective. I am pretty sure Evercack had an ignore list (It's been a few years) that worked quite well. I wish I had an ignore feature IRL sometimes.

Interesting, but my ex was a griefer in Sims (2, Interesting)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | more than 8 years ago | (#15552116)

When they did the beta-test of Sims Online, my ex was a griefer - she used to go around killing off Sims, starting fights, and that kind of thing - mostly because IRL she never did any of that, and she wanted to test the limits.

She got quite good at it too, to the point where many would just give her what she wanted in hopes she'd go away.

I think that, if it were like the death experience in Sims - where you just die, but people can mourn over you and you just have to win a fiddle contest with the Grim Reaper or pay him $100 to become alive again - it wouldn't be such a deal. Or if objects were the same as in Animal Crossing, where you can go into someone else's house all you want, you can play with their toys, and open their drawers, but you can't take anything away.

In such worlds where death or destruction becomes less of an issue, griefers are just annoying little boys and girls with butterfly nets that keep wacking you on the head.

Griefinator (1, Interesting)

gryphoness (841454) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551088)

Graph theory has some very interesting applications in controlling griefing. Different companies have used this before, and it's a system maintenance sort of thing... you have to take out griefer networks, not just individuals. But this can be done. Almost everything you do in an MMO is probably tracked -- the people you talk to, the people you trade with, the places you visit. It's all data and it's relatively trivial to run analysis on it that results in a visual network map of connected players. This is fairly similar to what the FBI does to track terrorist networks, only obviously the data is a lot harder to obtain.

Then, in the case of griefers, you can explore varying degrees of ugliness. You can warn them. You can ban them. You can cancel their accounts. And then you can contact their credit card company and report them for harassment and/or online fraud, which can REALLY suck. But the core point is that if you take out key nodes in a network of griefers, the pool settles out remarkably quickly.

Griefing is controllable with the right expert developing the right tools. All the MMO has to do is decide that they want to do something about it. But so long as they keep getting subscriptions, cough, certain large MMOs are not going to make that decision. But some of it has to do with the age of the MMO. Young MMOs will tend to want to play nice with griefers. It never works.

Griefing is its own solution (2, Interesting)

stlhawkeye (868951) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551151)

I started playing Warcraft. It was fun. I picked a PvP server. I got to level 20 and every goddam alliance I found killed me and camped me. Guys who were level 60 and elite mounts would stop, dismount, and come kill me. It drove me nuts. I never griefed alliance, I didn't kill half of the ones that I could have for Honor.

This drove me nuts until I finally realized that I was going to get griefed no matter what, and the answer is to make sure I deserve it. I began griefing non-stop. I'd just hang out in lowbie zones and harrass and grief people. Eventually some 60's would show up and put a stop to it and /spit on me a thousand times.

And then when my alts got griefed or ganked or whatever, I laughed at the dancing night elf who was /spitting on me a thousand times because, quite frankly, I knew that I really really had that coming. I gave better than I got.

The fact that I was der uber Shaman only made griefing more satisfying. Run the boards, little boys! Complain that you can't take a shaman 20 levels above you!

So yeah. Solve griefers with more griefing. The problem doesn't go away I guess but you enjoy the game anyhow. Flame away, I don't care, I cancelled months ago. After PvP grinding to get my elite super dooper PvP set I tried some PvE, but when they announced Necropolis I said fuggit. It's just another treadmill. I think I'm done with on-line gaming of that sort.

Stereotypes and racial hatred (1)

kbs (70631) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551433)

What you're describing is exactly how blood-feuds and racial-type hatred gets started. I play World of Warcraft too, and everyone I've ever talked to has had that same sort of problem. Back before the Honor system at some point some kid playing an Alliance character or a Horde character wanted to feel über-superior, and went and ganked some someone. And since it was so fun they decided to camp them. That level 20 Alliance guy then began to have a hatred, and a desire for revenge. When he turned to 60, he then dished it back; after all, this was what happened to him. And then the Horde victim then harbored a grudge, and so on and so forth.

Griefing is not best served with more griefing: all you're doing is training the next generation of griefers. Or quitters; the people who don't buy into that system are more likely to stop playing.

These grudges still exist, and it's just part of human nature. Think Palestine and Israel, Shiites and Sunnis, Tutsis and Hutus... the list could go on.

Re:Stereotypes and racial hatred (4, Interesting)

Achoi77 (669484) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551777)

There is no real easy way to get both parties (Horde and Alliance) to deal with griefers diplomatically.

Just yesterday I was playing with my cousin (lvl 29 and 30), running around and trying to quest over at Hillsbrad. A pair of NE rogues would be stalking around looking for some easy ganks. After getting ganked and watching them camp us about 7 times, we've decided enough is enough: we logged on our mains, a 60 war and 60 rogue.

So we brought them over to hillsbrad, and at first, I stealthed in and stalked around some fellow horde casters trying to level. Whenever I see some NE rogues sneaking in for the kill, I would take them down in 3 hits. Easiest kills ever. Ganking gankers was about liberation. After a few minutes, it was a clear message that they weren't going to have fun, and they stopped trying and went else where.

Every once in a while some lvl 40s (clearly looking for some easy kills as they are too high for the area to get exp) would be roaming around ganking lowbies. Took them out too. After a while, they got the message as well.

After about 20 mins of that, my 60 warrior buddy was getting bored, and stopped looking for ppl to defend, and decided to have more fun rampaging around downing any alliance he could find. So him and I, we mounted up, and went lowbie hunting. Wiping out parties here and there, we did it enough times where we could clearly see that alliance were getting frustrated, shouting obscenities and whatnot. We didn't care. We were a buncha angry lvl 60's that were all caught up in the moment, when we were just trying to quietly level our way out of hillsbrad an hour before hand in the first place.

Well, about 20 minutes after that, we started seeing some alliance lvl 60's coming on in to help escort the lowbie alliance. They took us down and started camping us. We called in our guild members. We took them down. They called their guild members. And shortly after that it was a grudge match and nobody was getting anything done for about an hour.

I hate Hillsbrad. Wish I joined a pve server.

Re:Stereotypes and racial hatred (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15552168)

Some people live for those moments.

"Let's go start a fight!" is how they start their night. I find it quite enjoyable to get into such world pvp fights but it always comes down to player count it seems.

Either way I enjoy killing and dying with my friends at my side.

It's all a matter of perspective.

Also, world pvp makes for the best stories and memorable experiences. I still remember almost all world pvp encounters from over half a year ago. The unexpected nature... the adrenaline... the excitement.

Re:Stereotypes and racial hatred (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15552418)

dude, if you're relying on WOW for your memorable life moments you need to cancel your account and go outside.

Re:Stereotypes and racial hatred (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15552563)

I hate Hillsbrad. Wish I joined a pve server.

No kidding. I moved to a pve server when the honor system came out - Hillsbrad went from an exciting and slightly dangerous place to bad day in Beirut.

(I can look back on it and laugh now because I'm done with WoW - but at the time I was really frustrated at how massively the game experience changed with that single patch.)

Re:Stereotypes and racial hatred (3, Informative)

green menace (806773) | more than 8 years ago | (#15552694)

I hate Hillsbrad. Wish I joined a pve server.


I sometimes wished I had joined a pve server. Especially for the grind from 50-60. I realized at that point that I prefer an environment where I can PVP when I want to, and get away from it when I want to. It was exciting at first, but got old after awhile. I wouldn't mind if PVP servers had safe zones that went all the way to 60, with most of the good content still in PVP zones. Yeah, I know I could have leveled up in instances with a group, but I would usually rather kick myself in the balls than run an instance. Guess I am a bit of a carebear after all, even though I spent 90% of my time in WoW in battlegrounds or lookin for world pvp.

As for Hillsbrad, I don't think I finished half the quests I started there because of the ganking, but I did have some good times there defending lowbies.

Re:Griefing is its own solution (1)

AdamTrace (255409) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551733)

I don't think you can call legitimate PvP combat "griefing", as such. It's kind of unfair and lame to kill/camp someone 20 levels below you, but you could also justify it under "role playing" or something.

Griefing, to me, is more like scamming people out of money, putting up auctions for 50g instead of 50s, stuff like that.

Adman

Re:Griefing is its own solution (1)

bunions (970377) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551740)

but that's not really the game I wanted to play. self-policing mmogs is ludicrous. It barely works on slashdot and it never worked on counterstrike back when I was playing that. The idea that you'd let players on something like WoW self-police themselves is an invitation to shitfuckery. The best online communities are moderated very closely, and bans are handed out liberally. Companies should take a good look at that.

It's only a video game - anything goes (2, Insightful)

SpecialAgentXXX (623692) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551152)

Jesus H. Christ. I read the article and these "gamers" take their recreational time way, way, way too seriously. Look at this example:

The players of World of Warcraft were left with a similar conundrum in March, when a group of gamers performed an act whose only purpose was to cause emotional pain. The death of a member of the community inspired her fellow gamers to hold a virtual funeral, which was raided by a malicious mob that made short work of the mourners, all of whom had relinquished their weapons as a sign of respect. Since the funeral was naively held in a zone designed for combat, few could question the legitimacy of the attack within the game's rules. None the less, the mourners were outraged, not at the penalties their characters would have to suffer, but at the brazen attack on their feelings.

You're playing a video game where you can kill and destroy. That's the game. Your virtual character can do anything you want to do in the game that the game allows. Some want to sit around making a political statement, others want to wreck havoc. The only "rules" in a video game is what the programmers write into it. Other than that, anything goes.

Of course, you can't do anything that's already illegal such as a DDOS attack or sending viruses to other players. Or even cheating - i.e. changing the "rules" in a video game than what the programmers put in place. Note, this is different than taking advantage of an exploit, which is perfectly fine since it is in the game. If gamers don't like it, the programmers can put out a patch to fix it.

The point is that this is just a video game and there are no real-world dollar values assigned to the bits of electrons on the servers' hard drives. If there was, then anyone (most likely the parent company or a programmer within the company) could create 10,000 "uber-great-warrior-characters" for $100 each and be an instant millionaire. There is no such thing as "property rights" in a video game since you own nothing. You pay a monthly fee to access the physical property (servers, routers, etc.) of the game company.

Could you imagine the chaos if your video game character's items were considered real property? Could you get sued for theft if you play a thief and steal the items? Could you get sued for sexual harassment if you knock down a character and remove their armor, thus exposing some of its virtual body parts? Could the video game company be sued for not providing adequate virtual security (i.e. unpickable lock on a treasure chest or your house) to protect your virtual items?

The whole point of a video game is to escape from reality into an alternate place. Some think they can take their politics, opinions, etc. with them and shape the alternate place into the same fucked up place as the real world. Others, like myself, who lived in a structured and planned out environment like to wreck havoc and chaos in the alternate world as an escape from real life. I like to inject my bit of "Grand Theft Auto" gameplay in all of the online game I play.

Re:It's only a video game - anything goes (1)

Azarael (896715) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551288)

Totally agree, every time I see players have a total hissy fit about cheating I wonder what they heck is wrong with them. Over competativeness in a community in a lot of cases is just as bad as people who make it a point to cause trouble.

Re:It's only a video game - anything goes (1)

_Sprocket_ (42527) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551643)

Totally agree, every time I see players have a total hissy fit about cheating I wonder what they heck is wrong with them.


Games are defined by the rules of that game. If you do not follow those rules... if you cheat... you are no longer playing the game. If you don't want to play the game, go find something else to do.

Having said that - I could do without the idiots who scream "cheater" every time some encounter in a game doesn't go the way they want or expected.

Re:It's only a video game - anything goes (1)

Gnostic Ronin (980129) | more than 8 years ago | (#15552213)

Well, yeah, but it can get to the point where you can't play for the constant griefing. I used to play MMOs, and one thing that did bug me was greifers who'd kill me 8-10 times in an hour. Now, I useually play freeware games, so I'm just losing time, but if I was paying a monthly fee, I AM losing money, because I can't enjoy the game I'm paying for. That's why people get pissed over griefers and theifs. They can't enjoy the game, and they're losing the money they're paying for it.

Re:It's only a video game - anything goes (1)

Alpha Soixante-Neuf (813971) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551411)

The earlier example was better for me. Some big corporation got infiltrated over a year and then cleaned out and they complain about all the time and energy it took them to build their group?

they exacted the ruination of a particular player and the corporation she headed, Ubiqua Seraph. Spending more than a year infiltrating Ubiqua Seraph and gaining the trust of its higher members, the Guiding Hand enacted an elaborate heist that resulted in the destruction of the organisation's limited edition flagship and the looting of its considerable funds.

That sounds like absolutely awesome tactics to me. If I thought me and 10,000 other people could infiltrate Sony or something and in a year or so take everything they had, I'd get on it right now. Having a video game character funeral is retarded, but moaning about a group that came up with a master long term strategy and pulled it on you is so sad. Be proud they chose you to bring down. Sure it sucks, but if you've invested enough in the game that it really effects your reality life, then you just learned a very important lesson: videogames are for playing, not living.

Re:It's only a video game - anything goes (1)

vadim_t (324782) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551459)

Well, see, by that logic, DDOSing a server is completely fine. After all, a web server imposes a series of rules on you as well, such as what file you can request. If the rules it uses let you take it down, why would it be wrong to do that?

BTW, Second Life does have actual property and items that cost actual cash

Re:It's only a video game - anything goes (1)

ClamIAm (926466) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551500)

The only "rules" in a video game is what the programmers write into it. Other than that, anything goes.

By this logic, it's OK for me to buy a gun and start shooting people, since it is physically possible.

Re:It's only a video game - anything goes (1)

daniil (775990) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551796)

Yes. Now you're getting it.

Re:It's only a video game - anything goes (1)

YamadaJiro (596154) | more than 8 years ago | (#15552180)

Yes, it is "OK". It's also "OK" for everyone else to create a complex system of police officers, judges, and wardens to stuff you in jail for a while. If you feel like being a fugitive for the rest of your life, well, that's really up to you.

You're confusing moral OK with physical OK. Games have very little moral OK in them, because the whole point of many games is to avoid moral questions. Did you ever think being a freelance warrior who randomly kills people he arbitrarily decides are enemies might be a little immoral? In real life, sure- but in a game where certain people are ALWAYS the enemy and killing the enemy is a fine way to gain money and respect, people should adjust their moral outrage levels appropriately.

Re:It's only a video game - anything goes (1)

_Sprocket_ (42527) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551748)

You're playing a video game where you can kill and destroy. That's the game. Your virtual character can do anything you want to do in the game that the game allows. Some want to sit around making a political statement, others want to wreck havoc. The only "rules" in a video game is what the programmers write into it. Other than that, anything goes.


Sure. The mechanics allow you to be a complete ass. Have at it. But don't feign confusion when people point out that you're being an ass.

WoW is an interesting example. The mechanics of the game feeds hate. And not just because of PvP fighting. Blizzard goes out of their way to make it very difficult for enemy factions to even communicate (forgoing such language barriers with neutral factions able to communicate across the board). Yet I have fought against some very honorable individuals. I may ultimately hate their guts for pulling off some particular attack that thrashed my faction or my character. But I can respect them as enemies for not going beyond the pale and showing some degree of class. I respect them even more because this behavior is clearly their choice - they don't HAVE to.

Re:It's only a video game - anything goes (1)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551952)

I'm sorry... but holding a funeral in a PVP area was just an incredibly stupid idea.

I have never griefed and it made me want to buy the game, log in and grief them.

You have to ask yourself... WHAT WERE THEY THINKING???

Re:It's only a video game - anything goes (1)

crumshot (746676) | more than 8 years ago | (#15552489)

I'm a skatman!

Old Ranters... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15551154)

Scott Jennings used to be known as Lum the Mad, correct?

Comments from a part-time griefer (4, Interesting)

Hannah E. Davis (870669) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551224)

I occasionally grief in online games, but it's more of a roleplaying thing for me. If I go ganking noobs as my undead rogue, it's because she's a freakin' undead rogue. What do you expect, hugs and kisses from the walking corpse who just happens to be a trained and specialized thief/killer?

However, if I play an evil character, I usually have at least a few extremely kind and benevolent alts. I've played MUDs before where I'd strip someone of gear with my evil character but happily re-equip them with better than what they had before as one of my alts. I just don't want to play good characters all the time because it gets boring.

I don't really understand people who'll spend absolutely all their time griefing, however. To me, that's just as boring as spending all your time helping others as a good character, and while it may be fun to gank a lowbie once, I rarely see the point in corpse camping. There's no challenge in it, and one or two kills are enough to convince the guy that you're evil and dangerous.

Re:Comments from a part-time griefer (2, Insightful)

Turn-X Alphonse (789240) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551450)

I got this problem as a thief in Silkroad online. People instantly saw the thief class as an "evil" person, where as I saw it as an option and I could be good or evil.

I'd jack traders and take half their stuff, which ment they'd make no profit on the trade run, but they'd also lose no money. All they really lost is 20 minutes of their time and maybe a bit of self esteem.

Other times I'd see dead newbies with loot I could steal and I'd res them and protect them instead of robbing them. It all depended on my mood and the level they were at.

Remember your character is your character. You maybe evil or you may not, it's your choice and my choice was always to play how I wanted others to play. To do what they felt was best for all involved.

You can't throw around excuses how "it's in character to grief newbies", because it's not. It's just you being an asshole. You can't pan off your guilt onto other reasons. YOU control what you do, you pick your path. If you decide to be a wanker than thats your choice.

Immersion is everything (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15551246)

There are thousands of gamers just like me who only want to escape. We do not throw hissy fits in blogs and whine about things like "class balancing" and "endgame content". For gamers like me, immersion is the point and purpose. I'm as likely to explore as do anything remotely along the lines of "gaining experience" or "grinding". We seek the Holodeck experience, not robotic slaying that only leads to dissatisfaction when there is nothing left to kill. I submit that a large part of gaming is Immersion, and refute statements to the contrary.

And my dollar is just as good as the uberwarrior level 9 million who does nothing but play the game, and run scripts and macros in game while getting the occasional nap or canned ravioli break. Game companies receive exactly the same amount of revenue from me as from uberwarrior, and I represent a more desirable demographic for the game companies, because I do not endlessly bitch about the imperfections present in every video game ever written.

"/." Moderation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15551253)

"The reason is fairly obvious if not particularly noble: it's less expensive for game companies to have their customers police themselves than hire people to do it."

Gee. I said the same thing about slashdot moderation and got a -1: troll for my troubles.*

*I also said it's as good an idea as letting prisoners run the prisons too.

"Social Disease"? (1)

aldheorte (162967) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551258)

The article overstates it's argument with the hyberloic asssertion that griefing constitutes a "social disease." One gamer's griefing is another gamer's villainous role play.

I do not have much experience with MMORPGs, but from playing Eve Online a bit, I have to wonder sometimes where the "disease" really lies. Do the pirates who go around blowing up miners and new players in low security space have a "social disease"? What about the miners who spend endless hours obsessively and repetitively dragging the same icons from one window to another in complete safety in the high security systems? Does that qualify as a "social disease?

More importantly, since I suspect that "anti-grefing" initiatives put the power in the hands of the latter type, do we really want them making virtual worlds "safe"? It sounds like a script for taking the real world writ small into virtual worlds, creating endless bureaucracy and oppressive governance.

Hey, at least, where's there is power to be had, you can always play the game to get that power... so you can grief people with it.

Re:"Social Disease"? (2, Insightful)

Gojira Shipi-Taro (465802) | more than 8 years ago | (#15552509)

Eve is open-pvp for the most part. It's designed more for player oriented solutions.

Most people do not play PvP all the time. I rarely will play PvP in a MMO. I am not interested in competing or trying to ruin someone else's night.

Sane people do not pay a fee to play a game where they will be locked into the role of "victim". That's what griefers are looking for. Not "villainous roleplay", and DAMNED SURE not a fair fight. They want someone to pick on. They want to see how many people they can make QUIT.

In MOST games, it behooves the company running the game to boot "villainous roleplayers" who attempt to interfere with non-consenting players in a non-PvP situation. I'm not interested in being your victim, and I'm not interested in providing you with entertaiment at my expense, without my consent.

I'm paying a fee for my own entertainment, and to interact on my terms. Interfere with that, and damned straight I'm going to demand that Customer Service do something about you.

I'm DEFINITELY not considering EvE. It's a technically beautiful game, and the tutorial was excellent.

I'm not interested in PvP though.

Nothing New (1)

ggKimmieGal (982958) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551267)

Griefer's are nothing new. They are every day people and are often just as annoying in real life as in video games. It is easy to avoid them. First, a great way to enjoy MMOs is to get all of your real life friends to play. Then you have a strong alliance. Also, you're always garunteed a group because your friends will run with you even if they have already done whatever quest. Second, just like how you wouldn't click a link that says "virus.exe" in AIM, don't fall for dumb scams.

Have fun while playing video games, but don't take them so seriously. Treat "n00bs" the way you would want to be treated and Karma will look out for you.

Since Planetside is free (1)

CrazyJim1 (809850) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551357)

I decided to play some planetside since its free now. You get grief when people ram you or run into your field of fire, then your guns lock for 10 minutes. Its frustrating, and not a good solution to grief. Player policing would work better.

Re:Since Planetside is free (1)

MrSquirrel (976630) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551420)

Planetside is free now?!?! Please elaborate -- I bought the game 3 years ago but ended up killing my account after a few months because it was too laggy on my connection. It was fun, now that is is free - if there are still people playing I'd gladly rejoin.

Re:Since Planetside is free (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15551706)

it the fodder program. you can level up to br 6.

http://planetside.station.sony.com/news_archive.vm ?id=67028&section=News&month=current/ [sony.com]

its good that it brings more players in, but it too easy to grief with. get weapons lock from being as ass, just create another account. they need to add a credit card check of something to limit the greifers.

Re:Since Planetside is free (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15551769)

Re:Since Planetside is free (1)

CrazyJim1 (809850) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551744)

www.planetside.com Then click join the reserves. Its fast and easy to get up and playing.

Re:Since Planetside is free (1)

MrSquirrel (976630) | more than 8 years ago | (#15552374)

Thanks -- free things are good. The downside it won't accept my old account (it says you need to create a new account to use the free trial) but I would probably rebuild my character anyways.

Oh (1)

Drakin020 (980931) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551398)

Good greif....

My system for an MMO (1)

Kaenneth (82978) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551414)

(arg, comment wiping slashdot code...)

again...

My ideal system would be an MMO with a 'Karma' system, where you could rate other players up or down, and the accumulated rating would be visable to other players, but not exactly who rated who up/down. various systems would expire or cancel ratings, with higher rated people getting more votes, along with long term account holders, or people noted by administrator for being helpful to others.

Combined with a set of G-mail like invitation only servers, to prevent bulk accounts all shilling for each other, and a large enough player base that would overwhelm any small group shilling for themselves (but, if you can get enough people to work together to rank each other up, they wouldn't need to be ranked up, they could just play with each other) you may be able to build a community of people who are nice to random strangers for the long term reputation benifit.

NPC's and the game system would be unaware of these ratings, ensuring not only that if someone wants to play alone they can (not denying service to a playing customer) but that the system could be portable across games; imagine if your good player reputation in a Fantasy MMO was visable when you're appling for a spot in an FPS clan... or if your message board Karma helped you get a group in a MMO...

Re:My system for an MMO (1)

ClamIAm (926466) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551536)

Um, have you ever heard of Googlebombing?

Re:My system for an MMO (1)

daniil (775990) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551581)

My ideal system would be an MMO with a 'Karma' system

You think this kind of system can't be abused? Well, think again.

Re:My system for an MMO (1)

LocoMan (744414) | more than 8 years ago | (#15552350)

I would use a system like that (karma) but with a few modifications. For example, people could give you "griefer" tags, enough of them and then wanted signs with your face appear in towns of whatever race you grieved. At that point, if you near a town that "wants" you, the guards start to attack. Also, there could be a bounty hunting system where money is offered for griefers (the bounty hunters might not know your exact location, but hints like "he was last seen near XXX"). Another tweak would be that when you're tagged enough that you're now wanted, you're informed and can deny the charges. If you do, then maybe stop the tagging for a day or two and have a company paid GM review what was going on when the player was tagged as griefer and who tagged it, and if it was unfair send a warning to the ones that tagged it. If someone keeps tagging unfairly then punish it somehow (a 1 week ban or something).

It sounds to me like something like that might work, but then again, my only real experience with MMORPGs is to hear people talking about them, haven't really played one myself since I don't have a credit card and the laws in my country (Venezuela) basically forbid paying for anything abroad without one (and government permission, that is).

The big problem with players self-governing... (1)

Samurai Cat! (15315) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551475)

...is that the rules have no real *teeth*. No company running a game is going to set up self-governing abilities that will have worthwhile punishments for violators - that could lead to the violating player *cancelling his subscription*.

Until game companies are willing to put their money where their mouths are, self-governing in games will always be ineffectual.

Re:The big problem with players self-governing... (2, Informative)

Teppy (105859) | more than 8 years ago | (#15552529)

A Tale in the Desert [atitd.com] does this exactly. Players can pass laws that ban a specific player, or players. They can empower certain players with the ability to ban, jail, or creatively restrict others.

In ATITD 2 (or maybe it was 1), a high profile player liked to mentor new players. But, he was terrible at it - turned off new players by the dozens (or more). Veteran players passed a law limiting his access to new players via the chat, mentorship, and guild systems. Then, they taught him how to be an effective mentor, and finally repealed the law.

Too serious about games? (1)

hasbeard (982620) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551688)

Is it possible that people are taking these games a little too seriously?

Re:Too serious about games? (1)

vertinox (846076) | more than 8 years ago | (#15552211)

Is it possible that people are taking these games a little too seriously?

Coudsong anyone? [google.com]

Jail time for griefers in America's Army (1)

Animats (122034) | more than 8 years ago | (#15551864)

In America's Army [americasarmy.com] , players who violate the rules are sent to an online prison. "You are in the United States Army Disciplinary Barracks at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas..."

Re:Jail time for griefers in America's Army (1)

Samurai Cat! (15315) | more than 8 years ago | (#15552348)

Ah, but AA is free, is it not? No risk of paying customers walking away when they get tired of getting tossed in the virtual pokey.
Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?