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Complaints Filed Over Firms Seeking H1-B Holders

timothy posted about 8 years ago | from the thorny-is-not-just-a-police-officer dept.

523

Vicissidude writes "Since May, the Programmers Guild has filed 100 complaints with the U.S. Department of Justice, accusing several companies of advertising that they specifically want H-1B workers, a violation of U.S. law. The U.S. Immigration and Nationality Act requires that U.S. jobs must be available to U.S. workers. The complaints stem from ads containing wording such as "We require candidates for H1B from India," and "We sponsor GC [green card] and we do prefer H1B holders," the Programmers Guild said. The Programmers Guild, looking for ads on major online job boards, has so far targeted only ads seeking computer programmers, the guild said. It plans to file 280 more complaints over the next six months."

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523 comments

Some more info (3, Insightful)

PCM2 (4486) | about 8 years ago | (#15593516)

InfoWorld has been running articles on this H-1B situation for a while. There's a special report on H-1B visas [infoworld.com] set up on the site.

Personally, one point that makes me skeptical is that I hear about this from the Programmer's Guild again and again. I'm not sure what the Programmer's Guild does, other than make a big stink about H-1B visas. Not that this is, in and of itself, necessarily a bad thing -- but if the H-1B situation was really as cut and dried, criminal and downright treasonous as the Programmer's Guild says, wouldn't there be some other parties chiming in on the issue?

Re:Some more info (2, Informative)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about 8 years ago | (#15593546)

I'm a member- or rather was, I need to be again once I get my first permanent paycheck in 5 years. They also put out interesting technical articles in their newsletter- the idea is to create better programmers so that we can out-compete India on skills if not price. But it's hard when Free Traitors keep bringing in people to compete with the people already here.

Some more info-Back slash. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15593617)

"But it's hard when Free Traitors keep bringing in people to compete with the people already here."

So in other words. The US is the only country that hires foreign skilled labour?

Re:Some more info-Back slash. (-1, Troll)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about 8 years ago | (#15593711)

The US is the only country that hires foreign skilled labour?

No, I don't give a rip what other countries do or don't do. I only care about the country I was born in. The rest of the world can die in nuclear fire as far as I care. The United States in the 1930s and 1940s enacted a series of laws that in the 1950s created the first real middle class- of anywhere in the world in any era. H-1bs and other guest workers are part of the class warfare to dismantle the middle class- and that is wrong.

Re:Some more info-Back slash. (5, Insightful)

OrangeSpyderMan (589635) | about 8 years ago | (#15593732)

I only care about the country I was born in. The rest of the world can die in nuclear fire as far as I care.

And there was I about to feel sorry for you....

Re:Some more info-Back slash. (-1, Troll)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about 8 years ago | (#15593854)

Pity is worth nothing. Economics is the new warfare- and at the rate Bush's free trade policies are giving away our land to the Chinese, I think IndoChina will become a new empire- after which they will simply kill the people and recolonize.

that's not very internationalist of you (3, Insightful)

Trepidity (597) | about 8 years ago | (#15593735)

I thought socialism-in-one-country was no longer in fashion amongst Marxists!

Re:that's not very internationalist of you (0)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about 8 years ago | (#15593818)

Heck, I'm for socialism in one NEIGHBORHOOD- violently defended.

IEEE-USA, Unions, Milton Friedman speak up (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15593630)

The IEEE [ieeeusa.org] , Department for Professional Employees, AFL-CIO [blogspot.com] and researhers such as Norm Matloff [ucdavis.edu] speak up against the H-1B abuse.

Lots of folks speak up against it.

The hired gun lobbyist Harris Miller loses to Jim Webb [computerworld.com] . Miller ran an unaplogetic pro H-1B and pro-outsourcing campaign. Seems the voters in Virginia don't like Harris Miller's record.

Heck, even Milton Friedman calls it a subsidy [computerworld.com] .

Huh? (3, Insightful)

Dekortage (697532) | about 8 years ago | (#15593715)

I agree with you, but you said... "InfoWorld has been running articles on this H-1B situation for a while. [snip] if the H-1B situation was really as cut and dried, criminal and downright treasonous as the Programmer's Guild says, wouldn't there be some other parties chiming in on the issue?"

Other parties like, say, InfoWorld?

Shhhh !!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15593737)

It's too subtle a troll for the "insightful" moderators around here.

Re:Some more info (5, Insightful)

pla (258480) | about 8 years ago | (#15593725)

I'm not sure what the Programmer's Guild does, other than make a big stink about H-1B visas.

Might I suggest going to, say, their web site [programmersguild.org] and reading the plain-English ByLaws [programmersguild.org] page? In particular, "ARTICLE 3 - PURPOSE", which contains a bulleted list of, well, what they do.


but if the H-1B situation was really as cut and dried, criminal and downright treasonous as the Programmer's Guild says, wouldn't there be some other parties chiming in on the issue?

Follow the money... Who benefits by driving down the cost of competant IT work? Hint - not "everybody but IT workers", because when we have money, we spend it as though the apocalypse will happen tomorrow.


As for whether or not companies really engage in such reprehensible hiring practices, you need look no further than the employment section of your local paper. See the tiny, unappealing buzzword-laden ads for experienced coders, paying a third the going rate in your area? Those companies will not get responses from anyone but interns. They can then claim they couldn't find anyone to take the job despite "honestly" trying, and can then hire H1Bs.

Regardless of your opinion of outsourced labor, I don't think anyone would consider such transparent tactics as anything but a legal farce.



wouldn't there be some other parties chiming in on the issue?

While IT people may have extremely well-organized personal lives (social and desktop notwithstanding), we don't tend to organize into larger bodies. The "I" in "INTP/INTJ" doesn't stand for "I likes large crowds".

Other parties chiming in : (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15593841)

H-1B, L-1 and Offshoring Opposition Bookmarks : More Info [h1b.info] .

Bigotry and Cheap Labor (-1, Flamebait)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about 8 years ago | (#15593531)

Let's see the Free Traitors try to twist their way out of this one- an obvious abuse of the program based on bigotry and the Cheap Labor movement that wants everybody to work for the least wages possible. The Destruction of the Middle Class, wholesale- this is class warfare pure and simple.

From my point of view, CEOs who support this behavior need to be tried for Treason and shot. Then maybe we would get corporate managers that feel some LOYALTY to the country they were BORN IN instead of retiring off shore on the profits stolen from offshoring and inshoring to eliminate the unions.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (2, Insightful)

heinousjay (683506) | about 8 years ago | (#15593541)

Yeah, nothing provides jobs like the artificial inflation of wages.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (0)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about 8 years ago | (#15593565)

Actually, this is about the free market- wages should be as high as the skills are rare. You shouldn't be allowed to cheat by going elsewhere. Supply and demand baby. Nothing artificial about it- and if you want to whine about high wages, why not outsource the CEOs instead? After all, who do you think has the inflated salary, the guy making $48,000 a year or the guy making $480 million a year?

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (1)

heinousjay (683506) | about 8 years ago | (#15593670)

How is going elsewhere cheating? Claiming 'supply and demand' as a description of an artificial scarcity is intellectually dishonest.

Sure, there are overpaid CEOs out there, but that fact has no bearing on the wages paid to programmers. We may as well bring the wages paid to assembly line workers into the mix. You claimed class warfare was being committed, and you're right, but it's you that's declaring it.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about 8 years ago | (#15593743)

How is going elsewhere cheating?

It's increasing the supply without paying for it.

Claiming 'supply and demand' as a description of an artificial scarcity is intellectually dishonest.

Nothing artificial about this scarcity- historically corporations have always had to pay for training to get the skillsets they want. The fact that Americans aren't trained in the skillsets they want just shows that the corporations are no longer paying for the training.

Sure, there are overpaid CEOs out there,

I've never heard of one that wasn't. Well, that's not quite true- Les Schwab wasn't. But he actually understood that he had to train people in the skills he wanted- which is why he owns over 500 tire stores now and has to build 6 new ones a year to handle the promotions of highly skilled people.

but that fact has no bearing on the wages paid to programmers.

Bull- where do you think they get the extra money to pay themselves big? By cutting the wages of everybody else.

We may as well bring the wages paid to assembly line workers into the mix.

Absolutely, if there were any left. Face it, we ignored the problem while they all lost their jobs, now it's our turn.

You claimed class warfare was being committed, and you're right, but it's you that's declaring it.

I'm not the one laying people off to pay myself a larger salary.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (3, Insightful)

FooAtWFU (699187) | about 8 years ago | (#15593719)

You need to retake Econ 150. That's not the "free market". This is the free market: everyone should be allowed to "cheat" by going anywhere -- except it's not cheating.

If a company can spend less to hire someone from India / Mexico / wherever, why on earth should we stop them? Why should they be forced to pay more money to hire someone from the US? This is utterly against the spirit of the free market.

In a completely free market, eventually wages for everybody doing a particular sort of job would end up about the same: as companies send work where it's cheapest, the local economy grows and thrives and the wages there will rise. Now, many things conspire to make markets non-free: sometimes things as simple and nigh unto insurmountable as Geography, sometimes things as ugly as petty politics.

Argue if you want that a free market is evil/bad/wrong. But recognize that any sort of visas and such are barriers to entry, and what you describe ("wages should be high because the skills are rare") is diametrically opposed to that: you are artificially limiting the supply by political machinations, almost exactly in the same way a monopolist can limit the supply of the product they can sell, in order to drive the price up so they can make the most profit.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about 8 years ago | (#15593771)

You need to retake Econ 150. That's not the "free market". This is the free market: everyone should be allowed to "cheat" by going anywhere -- except it's not cheating.

Depends on what you think the purpose of participating in an economy instead of just stealing from your neighbors is.

If a company can spend less to hire someone from India / Mexico / wherever, why on earth should we stop them?

Because economics has become warfare- and unless you want to be forced to worship Krishna, there's a reason why we have national sovereignity.

Why should they be forced to pay more money to hire someone from the US?

If they don't want to fine- exile them, take their assets, and let them go live in the third world. There's no need to accept them as citizens in that case.

This is utterly against the spirit of the free market.

Fine with me. If the free market is that you stab your neighbors in the back to earn more money, then I have no use for it at all.

In a completely free market, eventually wages for everybody doing a particular sort of job would end up about the same: as companies send work where it's cheapest, the local economy grows and thrives and the wages there will rise.

And as soon as wages rise, the companies will move elsewhere, the artificial bubble will burst, and the country will be in worse poverty than when they started. That's what is happening here in the United States anyway.

Now, many things conspire to make markets non-free: sometimes things as simple and nigh unto insurmountable as Geography, sometimes things as ugly as petty politics.

And I say these things SHOULD- markets never did any good for anybody.

Argue if you want that a free market is evil/bad/wrong. But recognize that any sort of visas and such are barriers to entry, and what you describe ("wages should be high because the skills are rare") is diametrically opposed to that: you are artificially limiting the supply by political machinations, almost exactly in the same way a monopolist can limit the supply of the product they can sell, in order to drive the price up so they can make the most profit.

As well they should. That's how you build a local economy- by fiercely keeping out foreign competition.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (2, Insightful)

Retric (704075) | about 8 years ago | (#15593798)

If the US wants to open the doors to everyone of any skill set immigrating to the US that's one thing. But H1B's are basically a direct attack on specific segments of highly skill labor. I would be more than happy to let 5 million people a year enter the US as long as they are representative of the entire spectrum of economic life. However, when H1B's drive down programmer wages but doctors and lawyers are basicly left alone there is a problem.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (1)

cryfreedomlove (929828) | about 8 years ago | (#15593826)

Tell us about the CEO who makes $480 million per year. I'm sure you not put that in your post if it was not true. Tell us who it is.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about 8 years ago | (#15593861)

Actually, most of them make a good deal more than that- when you include the bribes and stock options. Want one example? Warren Buffet.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (1)

cryfreedomlove (929828) | about 8 years ago | (#15593868)

Warren Buffet takes bribes? Really? Do you have any proof?

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (1)

teutonic_leech (596265) | about 8 years ago | (#15593576)

Your argument is specious - what's currently happening is 'artificial deflation of wages' and a lowering of the standard of living. Talk to your [non-CEO] working-class friends - they'll tell you their version of the 'gouging of the American work force'. At the same time cost go up all over the place... Wait, I know what your argument is going to be now: why don't we just go and invest in re-education? - LOL

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (1)

heinousjay (683506) | about 8 years ago | (#15593654)

No, I don't argue in any way against raising the wages in other countries. That's the natural consequence of globalization - everything reaches equilibrium. The investments that US companies make into (relatively) high-paying jobs in, for example, India, spread more money around that economy. A rising tide lifts all boats.

Protectionism, on the other hand, is a short term solution that helps no one but the people at the top. To believe otherwise is to go against all of human history.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15593688)

A rising tide lifts all boats

This is a mockery towards all tsunami victims! I demand an official apology from your country or we will mobilize our blood-thirsty army (Abu, Ali and Jeff).

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about 8 years ago | (#15593792)

No, I don't argue in any way against raising the wages in other countries. That's the natural consequence of globalization - everything reaches equilibrium.

But that's not the case so far with globalization- so far everybody's poorer- and the equilibrium we're headed for is the $.33/day wages.

The investments that US companies make into (relatively) high-paying jobs in, for example, India, spread more money around that economy. A rising tide lifts all boats.

Except for it's not. India has more poor people than ever instead- and the farmers are committing suicide because they can't compete with the cheap subsidized to below cost of raising it food we're sending there.

Protectionism, on the other hand, is a short term solution that helps no one but the people at the top. To believe otherwise is to go against all of human history.

Take a good look at human history before protectionism- it was feudalism. A very small minority were rich, and most were poor. That's what no protectionism will get you.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (1, Insightful)

Eli Gottlieb (917758) | about 8 years ago | (#15593872)

No, I don't argue in any way against raising the wages in other countries. That's the natural consequence of globalization - everything reaches equilibrium. The investments that US companies make into (relatively) high-paying jobs in, for example, India, spread more money around that economy. A rising tide lifts all boats.

Unfortunately, we can't afford the 20-100 year indefinite timespan necessary for globalization to actually bring about equilibrium. After all, you can count yourself sure that the corporations which hire Indian workers and H-1B workers don't want a free market any more than labor does: they just want cheap labor to make very cheap products they can sell for high prices. Ideologues like you are the only ones who actually want free markets - most people actually participating in the market don't.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (1)

Kesch (943326) | about 8 years ago | (#15593547)

Then maybe we would get corporate managers that feel some LOYALTY to the country they were BORN IN


And here I thought it was the country's responsibility to be loyal to the CEO's. They do make the biggest camapign contributions after all.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about 8 years ago | (#15593574)

And here I thought it was the country's responsibility to be loyal to the CEO's. They do make the biggest camapign contributions after all.

Loyalty is a two way street- a politician may be bought and paid for, but even he can't stop a bullet if you sabatoge the job market. These pirates masquarading as Americans these days on Wall Street don't seem to have the first clue about where their money comes from.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (1)

CRCulver (715279) | about 8 years ago | (#15593650)

Then maybe we would get corporate managers that feel some LOYALTY to the country they were BORN IN...

You can yourself a Marxist? Marxism is internationalist, and in it one's loyality is to the international working class and not to one's own nation-state.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about 8 years ago | (#15593833)

Actually, I'm more of a distributist- one of the first things I noticed hacking Marxism is the problem of centralization. I'm for DECENTRALIZATION. Inidividual neighborhoods should be able to declare war on each other and set tarriffs and sales taxes that don't apply to local businesses. Tribalism is what we evolved to be!

Mod Parent UP.. (1)

plasmacutter (901737) | about 8 years ago | (#15593887)

THe language may not be so diplomatic, but the opinion is sound and the assessment is not only correct, but very astute.

this does not deserve flamebait/overrated mods and anyone who has moded it so is blatantly partisan.

Loving it (5, Insightful)

teutonic_leech (596265) | about 8 years ago | (#15593536)

Yes, this has completely gone out of hand. Call it 'domestic outsourcing' if you will - the end result is the same: hardworking and highly skilled American engineers have a tougher time finding a job. The H2B visa was never meant as a carde blanche for companies to replace native qualified workers with cheaper immigrant workers. It's time to nip this in the butt once and for all - surely the companies greatly enjoy this situation and it won't change or even get worse if we let 'the free market decide'.

Re:Loving it (1)

teutonic_leech (596265) | about 8 years ago | (#15593555)

Sorry, I meant H-1B visas :-}

Re:Loving it (0, Troll)

Lord Ender (156273) | about 8 years ago | (#15593699)

"carde blanche?" "nip this in the butt?" Are you intentionally botching expressions to be funny, or are you new to the English language?

Perhaps you would get an edge on the H1B workers if you learned to read and write, instead of just sounding out all your spelling phonetically (based on poor hearing, at that).

No, I'm not being a grammar nazi--maybe a "completely wrong word nazi," but this is an extreme case!

Re:Loving it (1)

lonesome phreak (142354) | about 8 years ago | (#15593897)

All hair Lord Ender! Long live our great Lord!

Re:Loving it (0, Troll)

alshithead (981606) | about 8 years ago | (#15593847)

Try this on for size...maybe the H1B visa wasn't meant to be CARTE blanche but it certainly seems to be fitting that bill now and the companies that benefit will certainly do everything they can to buy assurances from our elected officials that the situation won't change. If you want to nip it in the BUD, then you better get working towards helping get someone elected who won't be in big business' back pocket. Maybe you could run when you learn English?

Too many laws and not enough enforcement (1)

maelstrom (638) | about 8 years ago | (#15593550)

N/T

Re:Too many laws and not enough enforcement (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about 8 years ago | (#15593626)

ANY enforcement would be an improvement- but the Bush Admin is against actually enforcing the law when it is inconvient.

Re:Too many laws and not enough enforcement (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15593756)

You're right, it's all Bush's fault.

Re:Too many laws and not enough enforcement (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about 8 years ago | (#15593808)

I don't remember anybody having a problem finding a job under Clinton.

Re:Too many laws and not enough enforcement (1)

dancpsu (822623) | about 8 years ago | (#15593883)

I'm beginning to think the X number of words max limit for laws proposed by another slashdotter is a good idea. We have way too many laws, and legislators have no real reason to get rid of any of them. I think at the very least it should be difficult to keep a law around. Something like a 2/3 majority vote on each existing law after a sunset period (2 terms?) to keep each law, and it has to be a vote for each one, one at a time.

The X words idea seems like it would accomplish the same thing, but be overturned almost as soon as it was about to become useful.

USian Terminology (1)

Valacosa (863657) | about 8 years ago | (#15593564)

Please explain for us non-Americans what H1-B is.

Re:USian Terminology (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15593575)

Google?

Re:USian Terminology (5, Informative)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about 8 years ago | (#15593598)

In America, we have different classes of Visas available for different reasons. H-1b is INTENDED to allow American companies to hire people with Master's degrees or better who have skillsets not available in America. In practice, it's used to bring in as many Bachelor's Degree holders as possible every year to drive wages down in highly skilled jobs. It's so popular that businesses actually run out of these visas within a few minutes of them becoming available every year. Current cap is 65,000 per Federal Fiscal Year- they're usually gone by 20 minutes after midnight on the first of October.

The big part is that these visas were originally sold as having *no* effect on US employment- after all, the skillsets are supposed to be completely unavailable in the United States, and no way to train anybody in that skillset. In practice though- well, you see some of the quotes from advertising for these jobs.

Re:USian Terminology (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15593874)

H-1b is INTENDED to allow American companies to hire people with Master's degrees or better who have skillsets not available in America.

from http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/services/tempbenefit s/cap.htm [uscis.gov]
Typical H-1B occupations include architects, engineers, computer programmers, accountants, doctors and college professors. The H-1B visa program also includes fashion models.

Re:USian Terminology (3, Informative)

fimbulvetr (598306) | about 8 years ago | (#15593621)

Although I shouldn't extend you the courtesy after you've used "USian", there is a fine link here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1B [wikipedia.org]

It's essentially a visa permitting medium term residency in the United States. Corporate managers love them because they can hire 2:1 or even better over local candidates.

Re:USian Terminology (2, Insightful)

Martin Blank (154261) | about 8 years ago | (#15593742)

Don't forget that they can also treat them nearly as slave labor, as an H1B visa holder cannot change jobs without a major hassle, and cannot seek any additional employment. If they quit or are fired, the visa is terminated and they have scant time to leave the country.

Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15593578)

In the dot-com rush of the late 1990s, yes, we needed H1-B workers because there plain simply was not enough workers. Not today. Today, any job posting made public gets hundreds of resumes. Jobs are getting filled quickly; people who have jobs in the tech field are working long hours for a fraction of what they would have made in the hight of the dot-com bubble. More and more companies are laying off workers; Sun just recently laid off 5000 workers. The US job market is weak and the H1-B workers just make it harder.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today (4, Insightful)

ClosedSource (238333) | about 8 years ago | (#15593603)

"In the dot-com rush of the late 1990s, yes, we needed H1-B workers because there plain simply was not enough workers. "

That was never true. H1-B workers were needed simply because salarys were beginning to rise and industry didn't want that trend to continue.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15593668)

There's this fantasy in many countries that it is somehow possible to invite hundreds of thousands of immigrants into your country when you need them, and somehow:
- have them have no cultural impact on your country
- have them all pick up and go back to wherever it is they abandonned in the first place on demand.

At some point after said immigrants have been around a few years, reality sets in, and people start to realize the landscape has indeed been permanently altered, for better or for worse.

More to the point, many once-H1B holders are now green card holders or just plain citizens. They're not going home, because they're already home.

Of course, you're probably meaning that *new* H1-B workers are a possible problem, with current H1-B workers being just fine where they are.
It'd be useful to see some numbers here.. What percentage of high-tech workers are actually H1-B? If it is, as I suspect, lower than one percent, it becomes hard to blame visa workers for all that ails our recovering job market.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today (1)

DigitAl56K (805623) | about 8 years ago | (#15593676)

If those 5000 workers at Sun were so talented, why could they not help Sun go in a direction which created enough value to keep their jobs?

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today (1)

Lord Kano (13027) | about 8 years ago | (#15593753)

If those 5000 workers at Sun were so talented, why could they not help Sun go in a direction which created enough value to keep their jobs?

Being a highly skilled worker means NOTHING if you have shitty management. If the boss says "I need you to do XYZ." You do it even if you already know that doing ABC would be more successful.

LK

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today (1)

Marful (861873) | about 8 years ago | (#15593761)

I doubt Sun is laying off Senior staff. More likely the lower divisions of their company. That being said, if your job is so tenuous that the company cuts your position to save money, odds are that you are not a decision maker and thus have no impact in the "direction" the company can or can't go.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15593811)

i dunno...
I guess that settles it.
those 5000 should have taken over the company, its only their lack of faith in themselves that allowed them to actually do what they were hired to do instead of trying to change everything. We need more worker uprisings and boycotts to force companies to chenage their strategic direction, those stupid analysts and CEOs dont know what the heck their trying to do anyway. They should have taken over and outsorced their own jobs to a 3rd world country, that would have increased their value for sure. Jobs? who needs em, were Americans! we pull ourselves up by the bootstraps with all that grant money for going back to school and learning how to be a computer programmer, or one of the other top 10 job growth areas of the decade as reported by the US government's economic report.

Problem solved:
Emmigrate to another country and work there for an outsourcer, or get an H1-B and come back to work in America. Think of all the money you'll save! plus you'll get more respect from your employers!

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today (0)

farble1670 (803356) | about 8 years ago | (#15593864)

right, because we all know that in a company with almost 40k workers and 8 levels of management that it's so very possible for john doe developer to affect the company's direction. and, no one ever said they were talented, but you can rarely track a product's failure to direct incompetence by the grunt workers.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today (1)

Danga (307709) | about 8 years ago | (#15593718)

The US job market is weak and the H1-B workers just make it harder.

This is NOT the case at all, the job market right now is awesome. I currently have a job but I decided to put my resume on monster.com just to see what was available. I got such a response that I had to take it off of there, my e-mail inbox was full and my phone was ringing off the hook. I also want to mention that yes, about 25% of the responses I got were from head hunters but the rest were straight from the companies themselves and what suprised me the most is a large majority of the people contacting me were actually lead developers and project managers basically people who could look at my resume and see if I had the skills needed, not HR drones. Maybe the companies are finally looking for pure talent over saving money, I don't know, what I do know is the job market is WAY better than it was 2 years ago when it took me 6 months to find my current job. Oh yeah, and I am a natural born US citizen.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today (1)

rblum (211213) | about 8 years ago | (#15593744)

If there are hundreds of *qualified* people out there, I'd like to see them. We're trying to hire, and so far not much luck. I certainly don't see hundreds of resumes.

I'm not saying that's true for all areas of the market - but that's why the H1B issue is so complicated. Some areas really need foreign workers, because there's not enough domestic talents. Others experience a glut of workers, and the H1Bs there kill the job market - in that specific area.

There is no simple answer to this.

(Disclosure: I'm an ex-H1B myself - but the company that hired me certainly didn't get a bargain price. If they could've filled the job domestically, they probably would have.)

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today (1)

farble1670 (803356) | about 8 years ago | (#15593875)

If there are hundreds of *qualified* people out there, I'd like to see them.

that's irrelevant. the issue is with the direct and explicit courting of h1b workers ... at some advantage to the employer no doubt.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today (2, Interesting)

alexmin (938677) | about 8 years ago | (#15593857)

The company I work for has being trying to hire junior to mid-level programmer in major metropolitan area for six months already. We are not looking for extensive experience or specialized skills, just fairly common problem-solving and communication ability. Sure, we went throught more than a hundred resumes and about a dozen in-person interviewes but so far found just one good candidate who's employed and was just testing what's going on with job market.
Even though one case does not prove anything I'd say that finding capable person is very hard.

Newflash (1)

ezwip (974076) | about 8 years ago | (#15593583)

There was a war in this country and only one side showed up at the fight. The other side is still waiting on their invitations in the mail. Unfortunately, they will never arrive. If you don't know what I'm talking about... you lost.

Re:Newflash (1)

ezwip (974076) | about 8 years ago | (#15593618)

I appologize in advance. I keep wandering out of my free speech zone.

Re:Newflash (1)

heinousjay (683506) | about 8 years ago | (#15593691)

If your post made any sense, I might react to it. Instead, I sit here baffled, wondering what in the hell you're blathering about.

It's okay (1)

/dev/trash (182850) | about 8 years ago | (#15593842)

The one setup by Bill Clinton?

Truth in Advertising? (0)

is as us Infinite (920305) | about 8 years ago | (#15593584)

If the HR department are looking for a certain type of people, wouldn't you like that information to be made public? I mean, it saves them time from having to sift through the large population of non-H1-B applications they don't want and the people sending the applications. Although, maybe they can just put 'Excellent coder with great references and 10+ years of experience. English optional. Beginning salary: 30k.' but I somehow think the flag would be raised in a different manner there...

(;

Re:Truth in Advertising? (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about 8 years ago | (#15593642)

In America- we have this set of laws called the "Equal Opportunity Act". Bigotry of this sort shouldn't happen. It does because immigrants are easy to control and pay a fraction of the cost of an American.

Re:Truth in Advertising? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15593728)

Do you want to work for an employer who had to be forced by law to hire you?

Re:Truth in Advertising? (1)

Lord Kano (13027) | about 8 years ago | (#15593765)

If the choice is that or not working at all do you really need to ask?

Dave Chappelle said he'd rather people look at him and say that he's an "affirmative action hire" than "That nigger's homeless."

LK

Re:Truth in Advertising? (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about 8 years ago | (#15593843)

If it's a choice between that and becomeing homeless (like so many programmers I know over the last 5 years) then I'll take forced by law.

What this really is... Job tailoring? (4, Insightful)

rsborg (111459) | about 8 years ago | (#15593585)

As someone who knows quite a few non-Americans on H1B, this might simply be a case of people creating jobs, so they can justify an H1B for specific people. ie, someone is already here in the US, would like a job, and the hiring manager at some company (or a friend running some body-shop consultancy) lazily writes up a job description "requiring H1B Visa"... therefore targetting the job at the friend/acquaintance that they want to hire.

I know that this "job-tailoring" is done frequently in the industry as a way of getting the exact person you know. Just that if it fits this shoe, it's quite certainly illegal... kind of like saying you want someone who is/not specific race/disabled/etc.

I, for one, hope that the hiring managers who put up such job descriptions get fired, as it's part and parcel of the corruption. Just wish we could fire them for other similar "job-tailoring" activities.

Re:What this really is... Job tailoring? (1)

Lord Kano (13027) | about 8 years ago | (#15593783)

Just that if it fits this shoe, it's quite certainly illegal... kind of like saying you want someone who is/not specific race/disabled/etc.

Many times employers do specifically exclude disabled people. "Job requires the ability to lift 50 pounds 5 feet into the air."

It's perfectly legal to disqualify someone based upon a disability if that disability prevents them from doing the job.

LK

Re:What this really is... Job tailoring? (2, Interesting)

Duncan3 (10537) | about 8 years ago | (#15593845)

I know that this "job-tailoring" is done frequently in the industry as a way of getting the exact person you know.

Actually, that's the only reason anyone still writes job ads. If you nor your employees know poeple good for the job, you're already out of business.

That's just how it is.

Re:What this really is... Job tailoring? (1)

MindStalker (22827) | about 8 years ago | (#15593865)

Hiring a specific person for a job is in no way illigal, the problem is that government agencies and even some companies policies require advertising even if you already have someone for the job. Its kinda silly really, but a simple fact.

Americans want the work... (1)

a_greer2005 (863926) | about 8 years ago | (#15593591)

Big AG business doesnt want Americans.

Wants the impossible (4, Insightful)

Nom du Keyboard (633989) | about 8 years ago | (#15593592)

The Programmer's Guild actually expects to force Congress and the Courts to obey the laws they've enacted? In what Perfect World is this?

Re:Wants the impossible (-1, Flamebait)

Tremo (530922) | about 8 years ago | (#15593660)

LOL, this will never be enforced as long as BushCo is in office and the neocons control congress.

Re:Wants the impossible (1)

Foobar of Borg (690622) | about 8 years ago | (#15593726)

LOL, this will never be enforced as long as BushCo is in office and the neocons control congress.

Or even as long as some Democrats are bought-and-paid-for shills of corporations as well. The good news (such as it may be) is that there is rising movement among Democrats to get rid of scum like this. There is no such movement among the Republicans. Of course, if I had my way, I would ban political parties all together and force everyone running for office to run as an independent. At the very least, even you have political party associations, the debates, ballots and everything else that is a part of the people actually choosing who should be in office would not have any relation to what party the candidate belonged to. Well, I guess I can dream...

Don't have to discriminate to be cheapassed... (3, Interesting)

posterlogo (943853) | about 8 years ago | (#15593594)

Not sure why these companies feel they have to actively seek out foreign visa workers like that, so blatantly discriminating. There are far more legal ways to achieve the goal of a free-market style cheap labor economy. For example, the obvious, an American worker is not intrinsically "worth" more than a foreign worker, so why not just offer the same starting salary to any entry-level candidate? Chances are the foreign visa worker will still see that as a decent offering and take the job, whereas the American worker may not. It really seems like the goal was to get qualified workers without having to offer the inflated salaries that domestic workers expect. Couldn't this sort of be established de facto by offering every candidate a salary comparable to what a visa worker would get, rather then de jure by hiring only visa workers?

Re:Don't have to discriminate to be cheapassed... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15593624)

They don't just want to pay less, they want a carte blanche to treat their employees like crap. An H1-B visa worker will put up with a lot more abuse from an employer since they depend on the employer to keep them in the country. This is the evolution of the idea of preferring people with families to single workers. The theory is, if they have a family, they also have a mortgage, car payments, college tuition, etc... to provide for their family, making it much less likely they will up and quit if the employer treats them unfairly.

Mod Parent UP! (1)

DudeTheMath (522264) | about 8 years ago | (#15593751)

I wish I had mod points. Parent is the first responder to mention the lock-in employers have over their H1-B employees. If the employee leaves the job (voluntarily or not), they must leave the country! To get back in, they have to apply for a new visa.

Re:Don't have to discriminate to be cheapassed... (1)

lelitsch (31136) | about 8 years ago | (#15593745)

Actually, that is the law--and has been as long as I can remember. For every H1-B application, the employer has to file a LCA (Labor Condition Application) with USCIS. One of the parts of this is that the Department of Labor--not the employer--has to certify that the person they sponsor is paid the prevailing wage in the area.

Which at real cheapskate companies leads to H1-B employees making more than US workers, because nobody requires companies to pay US citizens the prevailing wave.

The reason why H1-B workers have the potential to lower wages is because they have more people competing for tech jobs, not because they are paid less. If you think a H1-B worker is paid less than the prevailing wage, LCA are matters of public record. Request them from the DoL or USCIS and pass them on to a US attorney.

Who cares? (1, Insightful)

Danga (307709) | about 8 years ago | (#15593597)

Let them take the low paying and boring jobs. If you are an excellent programmer you WILL be in demand and you most likely wouldn't want the positions that advertise they want H1B's and GC holders. The people I do see this hurting is entry level candidates but even so if you can prove you are worth your salt you will find a nice job.

Re:Who cares? (2, Interesting)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about 8 years ago | (#15593663)

You're not allowed to "prove your salt", at least not easily. I was laid off with 8 years of industry experience in 2001. I was utterly ignored in the "spam out the resume" world. So I hitched on to my migraines as a disability, got my foot in the door contracting with the state, and after 2.5 years of proving myself as a contractor, I'll be getting my first real paycheck with benefits next month.

It took me 5 years to "prove my salt" all over again, despite having 8 years in the industry. I'm only now programming at the same skill level I was in 1999, having had to do all the crap jobs to prove my salt. You know NOTHING of the real world- you've been coddled. Hope you've kept up on your studying.

Re:Who cares? (5, Insightful)

Aadain2001 (684036) | about 8 years ago | (#15593700)

"The people I do see this hurting is entry level candidates but even so if you can prove you are worth your salt you will find a nice job."

Ah-ha! There is the real damage being done to not only our economy, but our society as a whole! The idea that it's ok to fill entry level positions with cheap foreign labor/workers it a cancer on our society. Those entry level positions may not be that important, but you learn a lot in those jobs, especially right out of college. If you can't get real world experience, how will you ever get that "nice job"? Get a friend to tailor a job for you in a position you have zero experience with? Fake it on your resume and hope they don't find out? If you do not have entry level positions for those graduating from college, they will never mature into experience programmers/engineers and we'll have to pull from the H-1B visa holders again for the experienced positions. After all, they were the ones in the entry level positions, they got the experience, so they should get the jobs at the next level too. Soon even the most experienced positions will be available for foreign replacement. And where will you be then? In the unemployment line or busing tables like the rest of us educated types who never got our careers off the ground because there were no entry level positions for us.

Re:Who cares? (1)

/dev/trash (182850) | about 8 years ago | (#15593810)

So wait. I'm an entry level dude who is somehow supposed to prove he can do the job, by doing what?????

Read Catch-22.

Next up: Labor-based GC 7 years? (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15593599)

If they are going to go after the H-1B program, maybe next they should set their sights on improving the GC process from what took, in some jurisdictions, up to 7 years, to something a lot more reasonable like 7 months, or why not 7 weeks? After all, the ridiculously lengthy GC process is just another point of abuse for foreign and hence American workers. To be fair, the process has already been "streamlined", where it now takes on average something around 3-4 years total. But, that's still far too long, and leaves people vulnerable. Perhaps the programmers guild would like to see this shortened so they they decrease the abuses and increases their membership?

It never ceases to amaze me how, globally, we have virtually free movement of capital, a moderately free movement of goods, but a heavily restricted movement of people. The three major components of the economy have dramatically different levels of restrictions depending on how the given component cuts between the wealthy and the working "classes".

Who wants a lightening fast immigration system? Not the employers...that's for sure. And yet, overall, that would arguably be best for the overall economy.

"It turns out the so-called free market isn't quite so free, if you're a worker bee".

Re:Next up: Labor-based GC 7 years? (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about 8 years ago | (#15593675)

I want the wait time to be 7 seconds. You should be able to sign up on a website from anywhere in the world, and after a credit & criminal background check in your home country and a simple boolean check on the availability of the visa, get a completely binding "Yes" or "No" that can't be appealed right there and then. You then proceed to apply under a different visa, or apply again for a green card, or whatever. There is no need for a human to intervene in this process- it should be totally automatic.

They took err jeerbs! (4, Insightful)

smclean (521851) | about 8 years ago | (#15593605)

They took err jeeerbs!! But seriously, the perception about H1-B holders being needed to supplement the supposed lack of American training is, to me, rather insulting. Maybe I have too high an estimation of myself and my peers, but it seems to me that the US is pretty rich with technical talent. Trying to dilute the marketplace with indentured servants certainly is not going to help us get paid our due, or motivate us to earn it.

Re:They took err jeerbs! (1)

DigitAl56K (805623) | about 8 years ago | (#15593707)

Maybe America is rich with talent in most areas, but sometimes companies require specialist workers responsible for creating core technologies that can underpin an entire line of business. You want to create a new 3D engine? Hire the best in the world to make it shine brighter than the rest, then hire the best Americans you can find to build applications around it. Avionics? Same thing. Engineers? Same thing. I have to say that as an H1-B worker I feel that the whole illegal immigration/Mexico debate is creating a situation which will eventually make it open-season for criticising any form of immigration, whether it be legal and justified or not.

It's about to hit the fan (1)

Joebert (946227) | about 8 years ago | (#15593640)

I hope everyone has their raincoats...

War on drugs strategy (4, Insightful)

Baldrson (78598) | about 8 years ago | (#15593682)

The war on drugs didn't get serious until it starte confiscating the assets of drug lords.

Confiscate the assets of the businesses illegally lowering wages via violation of the law.

Tempoary ??? (1)

rolyatknarf (973068) | about 8 years ago | (#15593694)

According to the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, the new name for the Immigration and Naturalization Service, H-1B is a "nonimmigrant classification used by an alien who will be employed temporarily in a specialty occupation or as a fashion model of distinguished merit and ability." Has anyone heard of one of these employees being sent home when their temporary service is over? And does "alien" mean like E.T. or the Predator?

Re:Temporary ??? (1)

rolyatknarf (973068) | about 8 years ago | (#15593730)

should have been "temporary" oops

Other H1B scams (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 years ago | (#15593749)

On my last job I was interviewing a number of candidates who had gotten their undergraduate degree in India and were in a Masters in IT program at a certain (hint) northeastern university. I have never run into so many people who knew so little about programming. I could only conclude that the program was a scheme by the university to make money in exchange for making foreign students eligible for the H1B's reserved for foreign graduate students since scholastic standing obviously wasn't the criterium for admission.

Of course now I'm looking for work again and I don't know what the hell is going on there. It's like slipping into another dimension. I have a theory that it's because the hiring companies don't actually tell you what they're really looking for. When I was doing interviews I certainly didn't the candidates we were looking for programmers who could deal with a really suboptimal programming situation. The usual metaphors like "challenge" and "opportunity" weren't up to it. The idea candidate would have had to display a naive enthusiasm and an aptitude for being abused.

An old scheme (4, Interesting)

CaroKann (795685) | about 8 years ago | (#15593770)

About a decade ago, when I was fresh out of college and trying to find a programming job, one of the resources I used was the local employment office. While I was going over a list of jobs with the employment office guy, I noticed some jobs I thought I should try for and asked about them. The guy told me that I was wasting my time, that it was a dishonest company, and that I had no chance of getting hired. He explained to me how that particular company only wanted to hire an HB1 visa employee, and that they only listed the job with the employment office because the law requires that they must make an effort to hire an American first. Every American that applies for the job will be found wanting, and, their legal obligations satisified, the company will then proceed to hire an HB1 employee. I was willing to work anywhere at that time, so I tried anyway, and of course i did not get the job.

That's only one of the schemes I've encountered while looking for work. The job market can be a scummy place.

Changes Nothing (4, Insightful)

omegashenron (942375) | about 8 years ago | (#15593789)

Even though future employers may get a slap on the wrist for the way in which they advertise positi0ons, it will not (and can not) change their hiring policies. All this is going to do is be a waste of time for companies (ie interviewing/processing applications from unwanted candidates) and for the individual applying for the job (writing letters, e-mails, phone calls etc to a company that has no intent of hiring you).

Yes it does suck and is discriminatory, however in the land of free enterprise what can you do? Mandate they hire Americans? Easy solution for the company, off shore the jobs.

Things you should know about H1-B (5, Informative)

ax_1225 (955097) | about 8 years ago | (#15593851)

The vast majority of the companies will not hire H1-B workers. Why? Because it's a PITA especially for small and medium companies. All the legal trouble and fees and restrictions are just too much hassle for most companies.

Also it is good to know there are minimum salary levels for the H1-B workers. A company can't hire a senior programmer from outside of US and pay 20k per year. This doesn't mean that some companies might not abuse the system and try different tricks to get cheaper work force but I really belive that the majority of H1-B workers came in US because companies couldn't find qualified people.

The truth is that there aren't many good programmers out there and there is still a lot of demand for them. I see many programmers coming for interviews at the company I work for and when someone good arrives (not very often) it is very difficult to get them as they already have several offers from other companies.

BTW I am also a H1-B worker and I'm payed a competitive salary and the company also pays a lot of legal fees for my H1-B and green card. Besides that I pay income taxes and spend all my money here in the US. America has a lot to win from the H1-B program.

Why would anyone want an H-1B worker? (1)

Zheng Yi Quan (984645) | about 8 years ago | (#15593898)

In my experience, H-1B workers aren't worth the effort. The government goes to great lengths to make sure your H-1B employee is paid commensurate with others in similar positions, and after the time and money wasted hiring lawyers and filing paperwork with the government, H-1B hiring is a fool's game. If I was legally permitted to ask whether a potential employee was on an H-1B I would never hire another such worker ever again. Why these companies are actively searching for visa workers is beyond my comprehension.
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