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EVE Online's Next Frontier

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the space-it's-really-big-till-you-get-to-the-end dept.

135

If you look at the graphs over at MMOGChart.com, most of the lines that aren't WoW seem to be heading downwards. The little engine that could, though, is personified by the Icelandic dynamo EVE Online. FiringSquad has an interview with CCP Senior Producer Nathan Richardsson. He discusses the popularity of EVE right now, and goes into some of the company's plans for making sure the game stays that way in the future. From the article: "This iterative process is based largely on our crazy future views of how EVE should be and a lot on player feedback. We then want to do some revolutionary stuff to the EVE universe and then evolution comes and bites us in the ass, reminding us that it's not cool to always throw new stuff in, the current game needs to be constantly maintained and evolved. In the end, we're never happy and I guess this is part of what is fuelling our continued passion for EVE."

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135 comments

Not EA. Not even a little bit. (1)

Doches (761288) | more than 7 years ago | (#15669810)

After EA's recent acquisition of WAR [warhammeronline.com], It's nice to see some non-WoW MMORPGS getting some attention. There may yet be hope for those of us trapped in Azeroth...

Re:Not EA. Not even a little bit. (1)

RingDev (879105) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670324)

I'm kinda interested in Warhammer now the Mythic is on board. They have a tremendous staff with what has always seemed like a great sense of project management. If they can bring that to the table for WH, it is definitely a turn for the better.

-Rick

Re:Not EA. Not even a little bit. (2, Informative)

Andy Dodd (701) | more than 7 years ago | (#15671828)

Um, Mythic has basically ALWAYS been on board - It was a Mythic project long before the EA acquisition.

EA, on the other hand, has a long track record of killing MMOGs and running previously excellent studios into the ground.

Re:Not EA. Not even a little bit. (1)

RingDev (879105) | more than 7 years ago | (#15672745)

Ahh, thanks for the clarification. I know of EA's record, but they recently bought Mythic. I must have remembered the headlines in the wrong order (Mythic involved on WH, then EA buys Mythic, not the other way around.)

-Rick

Screenshots... (3, Insightful)

posterlogo (943853) | more than 7 years ago | (#15669880)

...are all of random ships floating around in space. There to show off the "beautiful graphics" with absolutely no indication as to what a screen of actual gameplay looks like. Too many games out there rely on these cherry-picked screenshots as selling points.

Re:Screenshots... (5, Informative)

Winterblink (575267) | more than 7 years ago | (#15669906)

Hit the EVE site and go to their movies section. All of the videos show actual gameplay, though frequently the interface is removed (key combo in the game). There are segments in most videos that show everything.

Alternately, this [eve-online.com] forum on the site, which is freely accessible without requiring an account, has links to a ton of player created videos.

Re:Screenshots... (4, Informative)

GoNINzo (32266) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670101)

There are a ton of movies floating around. I really like this one of us busting an alliance's safe spot, killing a bunch of battleships. (It's shot from the perspective of a covert ops who found them and remained cloaked nearby.) http://www.battleclinic.com/cue/fraps/SS_Bust_14_5 _06.avi [battleclinic.com]

You can also check out http://www.eve-files.com/ [eve-files.com], which has a ton more pictures and some movies and such.

Or, youtube, of course. http://www.youtube.com/results?search=eve+online [youtube.com]

Re:Screenshots... (2, Informative)

Ford Prefect (8777) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670352)

Too many games out there rely on these cherry-picked screenshots as selling points.

After hearing random people ranting on about how good EVE Online was, and how it most definitely wasn't World of Warcraft (which most of my friends are addicted to right now), I thought I'd give it a try. So, downloaded the client, started the free 14-day trial thing...

First impressions: it looks and sounds amazing. For instance, the in-system hyperspace effect is brilliant - screenshots simply couldn't do it justice. It really does feel like tearing across a planetary system at many AUs per second.

Second impressions: it's a multiplayer Elite (a game I seriously enjoyed, along with Frontier) - except designed by a sodding accountant. The tutorial is *hours* long. Rather boring. And utterly vital to playing the game. I tried figuring some stuff out without it, but managed to arse things up - and couldn't easily return to where I was.

I got a really strong sense of the game being a thin, glossy 3D veneer to a very, very dull database. I could almost feel the SQL queries chugging away underneath, and the performance enhancements and caching systems were a bit obvious. The real-time systems too - compared with, say, Elite 2: Frontier, the flight system is incredibly basic. It's less flying a spacecraft, more clicking on where you'd want to go. Combat seems to involve automatically setting your ship to orbit another, then enabling your weapons. Which then shoot away at regular intervals, all aiming done automatically. Oh, and it has that arse-standard MMORPG 'foo landed a glancing blow on bar, doing 3.5 units of damage' thing. No tactics, only strategy.

Exploring places seems to involve finding your destination in a 3D map, enabling autopilot and then waiting as your ship flies (fully automatically) through a series of lovely-looking (but increasingly repetitive) stellar systems. There's no nice visual effect when travelling between systems, by the way. I suspect there's no chance of the autopilot failing (memories of having to manually fly a stricken spacecraft into dock with a fast-orbiting space-station in Elite 2 come to mind...)

Other players seemed friendly enough, although admittedly I didn't interact with - or see - that many. No Counter-Strike style griefers that I saw, anyhow.

Mining is cataclysmically dull. It's very similar to combat, except the asteroid doesn't fight back. Purchasing stuff is like using Froogle or some other price-comparison service - with potentially better prices available at increasing numbers of stargate jumps away. Which don't seem to cost anything except time. Speaking of time, things are often very slow. Yes, you might get many hours of gameplay out of it, but much of it won't exactly be gripping.

I managed nearly 24 hours before giving up. I got the impression of it being a terribly crude Elite 2 (WHICH RAN ON MY SODDING ATARI ST!) but with fancy economics, lovely graphics and multiplayer. I'd definitely recommend the free trial if you're interested - it seems a couple of friends actually paid for it, and gave up within twenty minutes or so. I persevered, and got a bit more of an opinion - although I'm sure I'll get a million satisfied EVE Online players saying I should have played for longer. Sorry, but I wasn't that enamoured with it... :-/

Re:Screenshots... (4, Insightful)

brennz (715237) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670486)

You only fought NPCs. You were in high security space the entire time.

You mentioned nothing of true tactics in ship vs ship pvp.

When it comes to player vs. player in EVE, EVE has so much more tactics and strategy than most other MMOs. The simple reason behind this is the massive variety of ships, loadouts, skillsets. Whereas WOW has certain classes that specialize in killing other classes, and strictly defined skilltrees, EVE has far more variety.

Yet another newbie posting on a game. This is like a level 5 nub in WOW talking about endgame.

Re:Screenshots... (1)

VGPowerlord (621254) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670788)

Unfortunately, first impressions are often the most important.

Seriously, though, I haven't tried EVE because I can't stand flight games. I hated Descent. I hated SWG's Jump to Lightspeed. I have no reason to believe that I wouldn't hate EVE, too.

Re:Screenshots... (4, Informative)

cowscows (103644) | more than 7 years ago | (#15671000)

It's not a flight(space) sim in any sense that'd be familiar to someone who's played Descent. You can't play the game with a joystick. Your mouse does not directly control your space craft. There's never a cockpit view. You don't aim your weapons, you just tell which ones which opponent to fire on.

Think of it sort of like Star Trek, where you're a guy sitting at a control panel telling the ship's computer what you want it to do. Except that the control panel is your computer screen, and you push the buttons using the mouse cursor. And your view is outside of your spaceship, not from inside it.

The really interesting parts of the game, in my opinion, are the social aspects of it. The organization involved in running a succesful alliance or corporation, the logistics of big wars and holding territory, the strategy and tactics used in big fleet battles. It all requires a lot of coordination, and it's a lot of fun if you get yourself into a big group.

Then there's a lot of technical depth that you can get involved in. There are hundreds, probably thousands, of different fittings that can be piled onto dozens of different ships. The economy is player driven, very deep, and very active. There are people who really enjoy producing, collecting and trading minerals, creating stuff, and selling it. There are some people who can't get enough of the mining, while other people find mining to be boring as all hell.

There really are enough options in EVE that just about anyone should be able to find a niche that they enjoy. The biggest problem with the game is that that complexity can be overwhelming at first, so it's not surprising when people give up before they can find a niche they want to fill. Unless you're lucky enough to fall into a corporation that actively trains its newbies, you'll have to stick out a rough beginning.

Re:Screenshots... (1)

Ford Prefect (8777) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670966)

You only fought NPCs. You were in high security space the entire time.

I wasn't exactly - I flew through a couple of low-rated systems on the way to find out what a 'cynosure' was. Wasn't targeted once. Okay, so I was just flying through, but I never got a hint of any danger... (Yes, so there will be some properly dangerous systems. So I then flew to one with a few hundred ships destroyed in the last few hours. It was like a flash-mob, I couldn't find anything untoward...)

I'm sure there's some deeply fascinating strategies later in the game, but sadly I couldn't be motivated enough to find them. If anything, the fancy graphics do the game a disservice - the first hour or so, I was psyched up, expecting to be able to explore an entire galaxy while drinking in some wondrous sights - except I soon discovered it was a much starker, drier game. Reams of numbers, tabulated relative efficiencies of economies and defences and offences - not my thing at all.

I found it deeply dull. You find it amazing. My opinion obviously doesn't correlate with everyone else's - so if anyone's still on the fence, try that 14-day trial. It'll polarise unformed opinions one way or the other. :-)

Re:Screenshots... (1)

Sollord (888521) | more than 7 years ago | (#15671113)

So you were in what 0.2 space? Go deep into 0.0 space to see what real pvp is like.

Re:Screenshots... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15673348)

One of the above posters said:

"This is like a level 5 nub in WOW talking about endgame."

While I've never played EVE Online (but am tempted to give it a try at some point) I do play WoW. A lot.

Your comment:

"So you were in what 0.2 space? Go deep into 0.0 space to see what real pvp is like."

strikes me as being roughly similar to telling a level 5 nub to go to Alterac Valley to see what real PvP is like.

I've read enough about EVE to know that anyone who has had the game for just a day would have no business going anywhere near 0.0 space and if they were somehow able to make it there they'd stand the same chance a cockroach has when I step on it.

MMO games aren't strategy. They're logistics. (1)

Behrooz (302401) | more than 7 years ago | (#15672769)

When it comes to player vs. player in EVE, EVE has so much more tactics and strategy than most other MMOs. The simple reason behind this is the massive variety of ships, loadouts, skillsets. Whereas WOW has certain classes that specialize in killing other classes, and strictly defined skilltrees, EVE has far more variety.

Unfortunately, citing any of the current crop of MMO games as an example of 'tactics and strategy' is about as useful as stating that your buddy is a better programmer than Paris Hilton.

High-level combat in EVE (or most of the alternatives, but ESPECIALLY in EVE) has at best a passing relation to tactics and strategy, it's an exercise in brute-force solutions to logistical problems, with the results being determined by which group has spent the most time preparing for the conflict. "My corp has spent more time buying tricked-out ships and finding rare parts for them, playing with spreadsheets to find the optimal damage loadout, and planning to gank you when you're not expecting it, so we crush your souls. PWNED!"

Ironically, this mirrors the fixation that professional soldiers have with logistics, but it's an uphill battle to make it 'fun' when the benefits of innovation and thinking are so massively outweighed by sheer teenager-grind-hours. Sure, CCP said all through the alphas and betas that EVE would be different, and it was different... but nowhere near different enough to change that balance, especially with the horrendous timesink UI/design they ended up with. That's why I stopped playing EVE shortly after it went into release, and hate current MMO games with a passion.

I will admit that EVE has more promise than the other MMOs I've seen, but I don't want to play any of them until things have changed more than any of the current generation of MMOs can imagine. Bring on the MMO singularity!

Re:Screenshots... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15671071)

Disagree with it because his entire type of fighting sums up only frigate piloting..and even then only T1 n00b frigate piloting.

To quote:
"Combat seems to involve automatically setting your ship to orbit another, then enabling your weapons. Which then shoot away at regular intervals, all aiming done automatically"~ford perfect

I wish I could still do that in ym cruiser battleship..I frankly think that sort of introduction to the games system management DB is a decent approach. (to dully note, even fi this was the entire battle system, it would still beat WoWs, ctrl click and wait method of gameplay)

Some other notes:
"I suspect there's no chance of the autopilot failing (memories of having to manually fly a stricken spacecraft into dock with a fast-orbiting space-station in Elite 2 come to mind...)" Autopilot only fails if someone else pulls you out of it and decdes to blow your ship to pieces.

"Other players seemed friendly enough, although admittedly I didn't interact with - or see - that many. No Counter-Strike style griefers that I saw, anyhow." - again...didn't spend much time outside of 'alone' stuff as opposed to joining a player corp and doing things, like the Tutorial recommends.

Also... the man goes on to state that he expected an action game...which eve is defiantly not.

Re:Screenshots... (2, Insightful)

urikkiru (801560) | more than 7 years ago | (#15671488)

Eve actually isn't that dull, but it's also a game that refuses to hold your hand. Gameplay is whatever you choose to do, so there's no overarcing plot or guide to steer you towards something really. Combat for example, seems simple at first. However, as you play more and more, and understand the mechanics more, you find that combat is anything but simple. Simply autopiloting around a target, and going afk while your weapons fire only works very early on. After that you have to start thinking about ship loadouts, traversal velocities, what modules to activitate when, distances relative to your target, damage type selection, what to harden your ship against, etc. I too remember being initally bored with combat. Then I started fighting real opponents, and that's when things got very exciting.

Anyway, Eve has a high learning curve, and tries not to throw it at you all at once. It's a strength, but also a flaw. It's a game of patience in many ways, and not instant gratification like some other games.

Re:Screenshots... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15671770)

Eve-Online is definantly a different style of gameplay... and I LOVE IT.

Sorry to hear that some people don't like the style. Yes, the aiming is done for you( which avoids the cheats that pervade games like CounterStrike ). And no, you dont fly your ship with a joystick, but there is a lot more to the Eve-online than 'steering' your ship in a 1st person shooter way. One hell of a lot more.

For starters you learn skills. These skills matter a great deal in how your ship is piloted, how long your ship lasts in combat, how much damage you deal, what kinds of ships you can fly( mining barge, transport vessel, assault frigate, battleship, etc ), and even how fast you learn those skills.

The game is more than just mining, or mindless combat. You can do pretty much anything in the game that you could ever dream of. You want to be a spy? Then BE one. Go out, infiltrate a player run corporation( yes, you can be ceo of your own corporation and have other real live players under you ), find out where their valuables are, how strong they are, how they fight, and then sell the information to some other real player in the game who wants it.

Do you want to be the head of the strongest alliance in the game? The only thing that will hold you back is yourself... minus others in the game who have the same goal. :-)

Wanna be a pirate? YARRR!!! You can. Want to be a bounty hunter? Politician? Just left alone and not griefed by those that get a kick out of ruining everyone elses fun? You can do all of that.

When you lose a ship in game, you really lose it. There isn't a save game button so you can try again. This adds to the excitement. Are you willing to lose a ship you worked 2 1/2 weeks to be able to afford? or are you too afraid to risk it?

No, Eve isn't a 1st person shooter style game you can write a hack for to make you see through walls and auto-aim your gun so you can 'win'. Eve-Online is a game for those who want to do whatever they can think of. And dare I say, its a game for those who are a little more grown up. If you want instant gratification, go play a 1st person shooter or go play WOW. This isn't the game for you.

Re:Screenshots... (0)

toiletsalmon (309546) | more than 7 years ago | (#15672277)

Very good description. That's pretty much exactly how I felt about it. I played for about 3 months, and my impression wasn't any different. To sum it up:

-the only cool thing you can do is mine in dangerous spots or fight the NPC pirates
-To do that, you need a better ship
-To get a better ship, you need gobs of $$$
-To get gobs of $$$, you need to mine
-The best places to mine are in the dangerous zones and you can't really

Rinse and repeat.

Supposedly it gets easier/more fun if you get into the whole guild (corporation) mining thing, but I wasn't impressed enough to spend any more time (or money) on it.

Re:Screenshots... (1)

flyonthewall (584734) | more than 7 years ago | (#15672521)

Never mined much in the game other than in the initial tutorial (3 years ago) as I found it boring as hell.

Instead I made my money farming NPC and playing the market.

The best Isk to be made is in the wheelings and dealings of low security space; where one can stand to gain large rewards, but also to lose much as Eve is very unforgiving to inattention or brackish play.

I leave mining to the player that get a kick of watching grass grow. I get my minerals to build *my* stuff from the plates and junk left of their ships after I blow them to smitereen.. :)

Yarr..

I apologize in advance... (4, Insightful)

skia (100784) | more than 7 years ago | (#15669882)

Great. Now how about a Mac version!

Re:I apologize in advance... (2, Interesting)

jo_ham (604554) | more than 7 years ago | (#15669936)

Seconded. I would love to play this, but there's no Mac version.

They seem to have focussed heavily on Direct X and all that jazz for their graphics engine, so I doubt they'll even consider the Mac platform.

Re:I apologize in advance... (1)

Anm (18575) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670562)

Thirded... I'd love to return to my old Industial powerhouse character, but I gave up on maintaining a Windows box just for games.

Anm

Re:I apologize in advance... (4, Interesting)

Onan (25162) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670027)

No need to apologize, it's quite relevant.

I think that good, concurrent mac versions are a lot of what have made Blizzard's games so successful. There are literally millions of people out there with modern macs; a nontrivial number of those people have some interest in gaming, and a limited number of options available to them. Being one of a small number of companies willing to cater to them has to be extremely lucrative.

I know that I've been tempted to quit WoW for another game.. but there just aren't any, so I keep paying Blizzard. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that there are another million or so people in the same boat, which is more players than most games ever see. Blizzard is raking in cash from this underserved market, and I'm kind of surprised that no one else has yet figured this out and decided to get in on it.

Re:I apologize in advance... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15670694)

Good luck with that... they're already developing an entirely different code base entirely on DirectX 10. Sad, but true.

Re:I apologize in advance... (1)

azemute (890775) | more than 7 years ago | (#15672118)

It won't happen. EVE Online / CCP is quite solidly in Microsoft's pocket. From the bottom up, the system is based off MS tech. From Microsoft SQL Server 2005 to DirectX integration, the game is entirely powered on MS Opperating systems. The fan-base has been asking for *nix/OSX support for years, but there's no chance of it happening. Some have managed to get it running on Cedega in the past though. The CCP dev team was sponsored by the DX project as well, hindering our bid. If you go to the DX site, there's an EVE-Online advert: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/directx/default.m spx [microsoft.com] The game is good, long and there's always something to do. The skill system really redeems it for those players who aren't able to clock long hours a week playing, but to get anywhere, you'll require boat-loads of time mining or hunting to get any funds together as to buy new ships. The graphics are to be re-done in the next expansion which should be released Soon(tm). It's not for everyone, I'll give you that, though.

Re:I apologize in advance... (1)

Sparky9292 (320114) | more than 7 years ago | (#15672354)

Great. Now how about a Mac version!

Solved by downloading Apple's free BootCamp software and purchasing a Mac Book Pro or Intel based iMac. Now mac users never have to fret about waiting for a PC port to OSX ever again. :)

Re:I apologize in advance... (1)

Onan (25162) | more than 7 years ago | (#15673304)

I can't speak for anyone else, but bootcamp solves nothing at all for me. The obstacle for me was never getting a machine that could run Windows; it was running Windows. Bootcamp just gives me a new way to do exactly the horrific thing that I'm avoiding.

Strange... (3, Informative)

DisKurzion (662299) | more than 7 years ago | (#15669901)

When the MMO chart was posted, I downloaded the demo for EVE online for the very same reason...

I havn't installed or set up a trial account yet because
A: I can't afford WoW and EVE
B: I don't have time to properly "abuse" a trial account right now.

But their website is very informative, and the game seems interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if this game continues to gather new players.

Re:Strange... (0, Flamebait)

glassjaw rocks (793596) | more than 7 years ago | (#15669974)

The Trial accounts are sort of limited. You can't train in certain skills until you have a full account.

I used to play this game, until I realised how incredibly fucking boring the game is, then I started playing WoW.

Re:Strange... (1)

glassjaw rocks (793596) | more than 7 years ago | (#15671029)

Why Flamebait? I'm one of the 4 people in this thread that has actually played the game. The trial accounts ARE limited, I wasn't able to train in Mining Barge until I had a full account, And even then, after I bought the game, it took some 30 days to train the skill. On top of that, 85% of the game is you staring at a screen that says "Warp Drive Active".

Re:Strange... (1)

Asgard (60200) | more than 7 years ago | (#15672202)

Its hard to justify paying a subscription for a game that pretty much requires keeping another game or book handy to fill in the gaps between interaction.

Re:Strange... (1)

Cylix (55374) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670519)

I'm in the same boat... at least on B.

I really don't have time to play my Eve account right now, but I'm still subbed. Granted, I'm blowing something like 12.95 a month with barely any playtime, but my character grows even when I'm offline.

When I do have time to play, I actually don't have that much "catch up" to do with everyone who has been playing the whole time.

So yeah, it's great for the casual gamer who wants to play, but just can't dedicate massive amounts of time to an MMO.

I might as well throw out an ad for my corporation...

Fellow /.'s look up Trade Consortium if you happen to pick up Eve. (Just don't expect to see me much while I'm remodeling the homestead)

If I didn't have a real life... (4, Interesting)

Andrew Nagy (985144) | more than 7 years ago | (#15669920)

I might play Eve. In fact, I think it may be what the MMORPG genre was meant to be in its fullest form. I downloaded the free trial and after a few hours of gameplay, I hadn't finished with the tutorial. The game is huge. It's not all about killing or casual violence, it's about a life. You can buy, sell, trade, build companies, overthrow other companies in bidding wars, all sorts of things. You never have to fire a shot.

Re:If I didn't have a real life... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15671712)

But, as your title suggest, there-in lies one of the problems with Eve, for some of us. I applaud them for trying to make a fairly open-ended game with a lot of variety of game play. The problem I found with Eve is, even with the novel train-while-you're-offline system they have, it felt like an even huger time-sink than most games, because everything happens at such a slow pace. Yes, I realize that it's realistic to have a space game that has a lot of travel time, but it's boring as heck constantly ferrying ore back and forth between a space station and an asteroid field.

Part of the reason it's such a problem is that, at least when I was trying it (I'm also a 14-day trial person - although I tried it like a year, year and a half ago - hmmm, maybe I'll give it another try but I dunno), my ships had *tiny* cargo holds. Yes, I know, that's part of the game - save up your money, upgrade your ship, get more cargo space, faster mining equipment, and better drives, etc etc. But the game was just an incredibly slow starter. I guess I'm just too impatient lol.

But, because I have a real life (job, friends, family, events), I like games that I can get it, have a good time for an hour or two, and get out. I suppose Eve might fit that role if I stuck with it past the early part of the game, but as one of the ancestors mentioned, this fealt an aweful lot like an accountants game. A whole lot of database, not a lot of game.

Guild Wars? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15669929)

Interesting how the second largest MMO, Guild Wars or even the expansion, Factions, fails to appear on this list. It does have over a million users. And it's not having it's licensed pulled like some mmo's we know about.

Re:Guild Wars? (1)

TB (7206) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670326)

Many MMOs are not counted on their list, which makes it kinda pointless.

Re:Guild Wars? (3, Informative)

SirBruce (679714) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670376)

Guild Wars isn't on the list because 1. It's not a MMOG, according to its own developers, and 2. It doesn't charge a monthly fee, so it's impossible to compare it to subscription MMOGs. Counting the 2 million registered accounts is irrelevant, because only a fraction of those are actually playing the game regularly. By that standard, EQ and RuneScape would have millions of players, since everyone who ever played would get counted.

Now, you could, conceivable, count only the number of Guild Wars players who log in every month. Even though it's a free game, it would give you an idea of how many are actively playing. But NCSoft doesn't give out that data, and you'd have to get it for all the other games as well to make a fair comparison.

Bruce

Re:Guild Wars? (1)

Shilkanni (803384) | more than 7 years ago | (#15672154)

I understand the limitations that make it difficult to report on Guild Wars, and probably impossible to fairly compare it to other MMOs, but I don't really think it fools anyone to say it's not an MMORPG. The creator of the game doesn't call it an MMO because they want to distinguish it from other games in the genre, but when reviewers, game sites, and players consider it an MMO it's kind of silly to repeat the marketing information.

Re:Guild Wars? (1)

_xeno_ (155264) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670379)

The list only counts paying subscribers. Guild Wars doesn't require a subscription fee, and therefore doesn't have any paying subscribers. So it's not listed. This also counts against MMORPGs that offer both paid subscriptions and free subscriptions - only the paid subscriptions are counted.

In any case, the figures are mostly guesses because, for whatever reason, most companies don't release accurate subscriber counts. It's most useful for observing overall subscriber trends for MMORPGs with paying subscribers, and not for specific details.

Re:Guild Wars? (1)

CashCarSTAR (548853) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670859)

As a player of GW, I can tell you that it is sucking up a lot of the oxygen in the MMORPG market, even 'tho it isn't entirely a MMORPG in and of itself.

There was recently a festival event which took place in a new player area, and I talked to quite a few new players who have joined in the last 3 months. Many more than I expected, to be honest. For those that don't play, it's not so much because of the no-monthly fee thing which is why it's so good, it's that it has the best developed combat engine in the multiplayer RPG genre out there.

Re:Guild Wars? (1)

tapo (855172) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670962)

I picked up GW this past October or so, and I could never really get into it. Aside from the lack of a Mac version (which is my main desktop), Guild Wars seems to PVP focused and simple. WoW seems like a world, where raids on XR just happen because you're waiting for your other guildies to come online and do that next instance. Even PVP, which has its strongpoints, is focused around what you bring with you to the fight. In WoW, attributes given to you through hardcore play are nerfed a bit for pvp combat. Even then, there is no 'deathmatch' in WoW (Gurubashi Arena aside), and most of the battlegrounds are team based. CTF, Capture and Hold, and the weird Battlefield 2 style feel of Alterac Valley.

Re:Guild Wars? (1)

cspariah (958194) | more than 7 years ago | (#15672604)

All you need to do is note GW's continued presence on top-ten PC game sales charts. Even before the expansion launched the original SKU was still showing up there.

WoW doesn't appeal to me (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15669930)

There, I said it. Sorry Blizzard but I have tried to enjoy WoW. I have played and loved every Blizzard game back to the original Warcraft 1. But putting that universe into an MMORPG just doesn't appeal to me. Am I the only person that just couldn't get into WoW?

Re:WoW doesn't appeal to me (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15670116)

Nope - the non-WoW lines and the non-EVE lines haven't hit 0 yet. There are others who, just like you, haven't given WoW (or EVE) a chance yet.

You really should, though. You'll likely be pleasantly surprised. If you liked Diablo, you'll probably like WoW.

MMO the way it should be (3, Interesting)

GoNINzo (32266) | more than 7 years ago | (#15669946)

The entire reason I started playing Eve was because the lack of shards. During my time on WoW, I would run into friends IRL who would say they would be playing WoW, but unless I wanted to do the entire level grind again, I would never be able to hang out with them in game. So, if any of my friends started playing Eve, I could hook up with them and fly. It was good times. The economy, though spread across so many regions, really makes it interesting to trade.

My corp currently holds an outpost, and it's really interesting to see the idea of player run stations, where it's not any different than a normal station that people dock at. I am really looking forward to the Kali upgrades which should really expand the world.

For those who havn't tried it, remember you can try it for 14 days free, though it will only get you hooked. heh A couple people I know are now playing for 'free' by trading in game isk for time cards, which buys you time in the game.

Anyway, it's a fun game, I'm glad to see it getting the attention it deserves on slashdot. Even though I've only been playing 7ish months, I've already got the two accounts going, and I suspect i'm going to keep them going. And even though I'm head down in work currently, my characters are still leveling skills in game, so when I get done with this project, I'll finally be able to fly that hauler that can fit everything. heh

-Kismeteer in game

Re:MMO the way it should be (1)

Maian (887886) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670321)

A couple people I know are now playing for 'free' by trading in game isk for time cards, which buys you time in the game.

Wow...that's an ingenious virtual money sink. I can't believe no one else has ever thought about that idea (then again, I haven't really been keeping up with the MMOG scene). FYI, virtual money sinks are good since they slow down virtual inflation.

I've played Eve around 2 years ago, but I found it really boring to play without a corporation (and I didn't have time for one). I remember surfing the net with Eve in the background waiting for my ship to finally reach its destination. I wonder if they've addressed that problem...

Re:MMO the way it should be (1)

Stregone (618612) | more than 7 years ago | (#15671144)

It isn't a money sink. This is how it works. Person A buys time code with real cash, and puts up a WTS (want to sell) post in the trading forum, and person B pays in game cash for it. Person A is basicaly buying in game money with real money, but its sanctioned and CCP gets the cash, not 'gold farmers'.

EVE already has lots of money sinks. Stuff gets blown up, gotta buy more. Its not like WOW, die and run back to your corpse and there it all is. Crafting in WOW is a joke, no one needs to ever replace anything, except as they level up, and nearly everyone is a crafter of some sort.

Re:MMO the way it should be (1)

bobdickgus (938017) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670438)

// begin rambling incoherency

Skill progression linked to time is great for me as i can't spend a huge amount of time playing. I can just train a skill that takes a lot of time when i know i will have extended time away from the game, if i do get to play earlier than expected well i can train a quick training skill and not lose progress on the slow one. So at least you can get some decent skills as a casual player and feal some sense of progression. Oh course time is money in EVE and even though a player who plays constantly for the same period as a casual gamer may not necessarily have higher skills, they should be able to afford better ships and equipment so it all works out.

// end rambling incoherency

Re:MMO the way it should be (1)

startled (144833) | more than 7 years ago | (#15671728)

The entire reason I started playing Eve was because the lack of shards. During my time on WoW, I would run into friends IRL who would say they would be playing WoW, but unless I wanted to do the entire level grind again, I would never be able to hang out with them in game. So, if any of my friends started playing Eve, I could hook up with them and fly. It was good times.

Absolutely. It's always been a bit of a problem with other MMOs, but since they've been smaller, you just had about 8 servers that you might be spread out among. Eventually, I'd get all my friends on the same one.

WoW has, uh, this many realms [warcraftrealms.com]. In the U.S.. Add to that that you really can't do much with your friends if you're 10 levels away or more, and it becomes pretty tough to wrangle all your friends together. With EVE, you just jump on, pop into your Teamspeak/Ventrilo server, and you're good to go. Very cool.

Now, I'm not sure EVE would scale to 5 million or so users without some serious work, but it'd be an interesting challenge.

Earth and Beyond (0, Offtopic)

steveo777 (183629) | more than 7 years ago | (#15669961)

Yeah, I played the game in the subject. Hated every second of it. I tried to play the 'stealthy' ship. It's the only one that appealed to me. I haven't played Eve. Can anyone give me a good comparison? Is it worth my time to try it?

Re:Earth and Beyond (1)

LordMyren (15499) | more than 7 years ago | (#15671125)

bump.

I had a friend who played E&B and loved it. From a cursory, the game looked more "full" than Eve, although I never really saw much real gameplay.

A game which inspires (4, Informative)

Winterblink (575267) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670029)

As someone who's played a bunch of MMOs, I find EVE to be an anomaly. The ridiculous attention to detail and depth hooked me more than any other game I've played, and has been the only game which has inspired me to create an online comic for the community. In fact the community of players in EVE is unlike anything I've seen before, willing to create streating audio and video sites to cover events (EVE Radio), create special sites for hosting pictures and videos for other players (EVE Files), and planning large scale gatherings on other continents for folks who can't make the yearly fanfest in Iceland (EVE Gathering). It's really quite something. For the curious, my comic is called Warp Drive Active [winterblink.com]. The humor is fairly contextual, but I try to make it general enough that folks not having played the game might still be able to get the jokes.

You are either a liar or a moron. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15671917)

Every MMOG has all that stuff you mentioned. Even games like City of Heroes/Villains that you can barely even classify as a MMOG have all that stuff created by community people.

Adrenaline (3, Informative)

eison (56778) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670176)

I wish more games would get the 'you actually put something you value on the line' idea right. Eve does, and that's what makes it brilliant. I never cared a whit about dying in WoW, but every battle in Eve practically flips me out. CCP missed a bunch of polish, but they got this one detail right and I love it.

On EVE (5, Insightful)

brennz (715237) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670200)

I'm playing EVE right now.

EVE I consider somewhat like Shadowbane-in-space, without the sb.exe and with a far better engine.

EVE graphics are great. Far better than anything else on the market that is an MMO.

I love the depth of EVE - you can trade, mine, pirate (PK), pvp, run NPC missions, or kill NPC pirates.

The huge amount of players online at any given time is great too - it isn't like standard MMOs with everything being on seperate servers.

EVE has a different levelling system also - basically time based. You set a skill up, it finishes after a set amount of time. No need to kill a mob over and over again, then move on to tougher mobs. Just time, based on the attributes of your character.

EVE requires a high performance system in order fully experience it in all its glory. I am using a p4 2.8 C, 1 GB ram, gf fx 5900 ultra typically at 100hz @1024x768 and my framerate is somewhat substandard. Going to build a new system specifically for this.

Also, alt usage is rampant in EVE. Because you can only train up one character at a time, a significant % of people run alts. I know of people that have as many as 5 accounts!

EVE's territorial, and risk vs. reward system is far superior to most other modern MMOs. In most other MMOs, there is no risk really, because of the watered down pvp. You die in WOW, you basically lose nothing. Not so in EVE. Dying in EVE can be seriously painful because of the massive expense of well fitted ships.

My only gripes with EVE is the time based levelling has some of the oldest players nearly at 55 million skill points (SP) so newer players cannot dream of competing with them, not for years. There is significant amount of time to be spent in your initial learning tree, and follow on into chosen skills based on your professions.

Re:On EVE (1)

cowscows (103644) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670651)

A well organized corp/alliance can find uses for newer players, and allow them not only to feel productive, but actually allow them to be productive. A six week old player is not going to have much of a chance one-on-one with a two year vet, but that's not really any different from any other game.

Re:On EVE (1)

brennz (715237) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670825)

The defining characteristic of great pvp games is the player skill involved, vice time to obtain certain items.

Ultima Online, during the tank mage era immediately preceding UO:R was the best skill focused pvp game to date.

In UO during that period, a six week old player with skills could very easily stomp a 7x GM 2 year old player.

That is why UO was so great of a PVP game, and probably, the reason why EA ruined the pvp system with the release of UO:R and overpowered gear. Many people that claim to love pvp, couldn't actually survive in a game that required skill. Too many gamers would rather opt for the fast food pvp offered by WOW. Little skill, mainly farming and equipment.

Re:On EVE (1)

Zero1za (325740) | more than 7 years ago | (#15671682)

In Eve, player skill is definately > than character skill points. You can invest a lot of time into training skills, but all this lets you do is use better equipment and bigger ships. If you don't know how to use it effectively, a couple of two week old characters is cheap ships can take and most likely will take you out if they know what they are doing. Eve PVP is currently the best thing out there.

Re:On EVE (1)

ceoyoyo (59147) | more than 7 years ago | (#15672162)

MMORPGs need to have lifespans. Your skill builds with time but then you die and have to start again. How fun can it be being leveled up so much higher than everyone else? If you had old age death then you'd get a good mix of older, skilled characters and greenhorns and everybody would go through all the stages periodically.

You could even set things up so when you're young you have less skill but better physical abilities, as you age you trade strength and speed for skill.

Re:On EVE (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15672624)

EVE requires a high performance system in order fully experience it in all its glory. I am using a p4 2.8 C, 1 GB ram, gf fx 5900 ultra typically at 100hz @1024x768 and my framerate is somewhat substandard. Going to build a new system specifically for this.

Dude, you must be doing something wrong... I am able to run it just fine on a budget laptop with integrated graphics.

A protected world view. (1, Flamebait)

CherniyVolk (513591) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670208)


I'm an EVE-ONLINE player. Training up HAC skills as we speak, only 8 days from time of this post for Cruiser level 5.

EVE will never be very big in America. There is a portion of the population in America who play, I myself am American. But, while the entire world loves soccer, Americans typically don't care much for the sport. Probably, the reasons why Americans don't like soccer is the very same reasons why EVE will not gain much widespread appeal in America.

Not to belittle any sportsman, let's do consider the facts of raw game mechanics:

Basketball, Baseball, NASCAR and Football... the four big American sports.

NASCAR is an exception. It is a difficult (in that the drivers are all, highly skilled, no doubt), and very dangerous sport. This is odd, why so many Americans like this sport yet they might shun X-Games. (It's my belief that X-Games is a social backlash of a small group of peoples at the dumbness of the mainstream sports to include, all the safety associated with those sports.) In NASCAR, people do die, you can become seriously injured... and though the same is possible in all other sports, as it is in everyday life for that matter, the difference is... in NASCAR, it's even PROBABLE you will face mortal danger. It's not common, infact it's even mind blowing and bewildering, to hear of a basketball player dieing on the court; it's just not a common event.

So, danger and tangible loss does not appeal to Americans. (With the exception of NASCAR and a select few alternate forms of such sport like top-fuel dragracing.) This is inline with generalized social characteristics of an American. In that, being so common for an American to refuse to be held responsible and always trying to blame someone else, even for his own self-enduced misfortune. This is very important to consider, becuase the fear of being held responsible stems from the prospect of suffering consequences and in suffering, danger and loss is implied. (Going to prison, certainly jeopardizes 'serenity' and 'sanction' and the apparent loss of 'freedom' which whether 'freedom' is infact tangible, is an entirely other discussion.)

How does this relate to EVE? In EVE, you do suffer tangible loss. If you "die" in EVE, you lose your ship and all modules you worked hard for. The components are simply.... *gone*. Now, you might have a friend loot your own "can", but things are always destroyed during ship destruction so you will never get 100% of all your fittings back even in the best scenerio. You can even lose skillpoints if you do not update your clone... this is a very big deal, moreso than losing "property" as in real life during a hostile engagement (such as getting robbed). Losing skillpoints in EVE really hurts, becuase it's takes a long time to attain them and the skillpoints govern what functionality are capable of. (Such as flying certain ships, using certain modules.)

Basketball, baseball and football are all mechanically... very simple. Afterall, a jock has to understand what to do.

"Take this ball... no not that one, this one... and run there.... no no, wrong direction... ok, stop, turn around.... ok start RUNNING. Don't stop, just run straight into the wall... SCORE!!! you are a hero!"

Americans don't like 'options', which is bizarre becuase the general population are supposed to be 'consumers'. Options, require making a choice and making a choice requires some degree of analysis which is another way of saying "thinking". Americans don't want to think... and this is apparent on so many levels, from VCRs with only three buttons, to the noticeable amount of Americans with degrees from an American college is... get this... English or maybe psychology. All of this is for the sake of simplicity... hell, no matter what interest you take... mainstream music isn't even as musically "advanced" as even 30 years ago. Compare the melodic sophistication of GreenDay with that of Jimi Hendrix, or The Beatles. We can even take this one step forward and compare most American top 40 to Classical influences such as Beethoven. Clearly, on a cultural level, Americans are dumbed down to an unbelievable state. Music is an example that's gotten so bad... RAP, the "singers" don't even bother carrying a note or in other words... sing. That's much too hard to do; never mind the fact that poetic composition is also hard, which for a RAP artist, it's always customary for them to make stuff up or do whatever it takes to just make something rhyme even if it makes no sense at all with actual real words.

EVE is not simple. Infact, EVE is one of the few games where you can take, conceptually, what you witnessed in the game and apply it in real life. For instance, a successful tycoon in EVE will have to have real life understanding of economics; and at a significant level. It's even worth noting, that a lot of the PvP corporations in EVE also have a pretty impressive percentage of prior, active military members. The game is complicated, that's for certain. Love it or hate it, anyone that knows the first thing about it will certainly agree.

EVE is not simple, making the wrong move entails unforgiving consequences... these characteristics, in this day and age, is in total contrast of what Americans enjoy. To stick with something to compare... WoW is big with Americans... maybe now, after reading my very brief explanation, this comes as no surprise.

Re:A protected world view. (1)

space_jake (687452) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670374)

My first stint with Eve was when the game first went live, played for 3 months and could fly every cruiser, amarr and gallente battleships, use any weapon, maxed out mining, and could control 8 drones. I did the math on how long I would have to grind rocks to get a battleship or join a corp and grind rocks for them for them to get a battleship BP and finally decided that the upkeep of the game was not worth my time and quit. Finally joined again and within one month I had the ISK for a battleship thanks to a trading route provided by my new corp, but again I tallied the time I'd spent training skills to get back where I once was and just decided to give up again. Its a hard game for a newbie to just jump into these days, months of training skills to get to the point where you're remotely competitive. As an American a large portion of the population is heading in to sleep when I am logging on and this hurts when you need someone to watch your back while you're mining away, unless you want to buy two accounts. As for real loss in-game I never had much of a problem with it, like real life you don't skimp on health insurance. Prototype modules and implants are acceptable losses IMO as you die so infrequently for you not to get your money's worth most of the time out of them. I have to admit that it was funny talking with my old character nearly a year and a half after creating him though.

Re:A protected world view. (3, Insightful)

ReverendLoki (663861) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670458)

There is so much wrong in your post....

Most Americans won't play EVE because most Americans don't play MMORPGs in general. Speaking strictly about the Americans who play MMORPGs, though, most won't be playing EVE because of the huge time investment. Most of these gamers play for a diversion... they are playing a game, not trying to work a second virtual job.

You say that Americans like games simple and dumbed down, and say that is why Americans don't like Soccer, but instead play games like (American) Football, Basketball and Baseball. I'm guessing you have never played Soccer, then. It's simplicity is part of what makes it a great sport... at the core, you just need a ball to play it. No fancy rules, no complex strategies, no infield fly rule, no complex screen pass patterns. Once you've mastered the offsides rule, which any 6 year old can do, it's a simple game.

Regarding your comments on music as a reflection on American society - you realize that this applies to the entire world, don't you? And why are you including the Beatles as an example of American music?

Look, I may just be falling into the trap laid by yet another Troll, but the way I see it, you are extremely confused on... well, almost every subject you broached in your brief explanation...

Mod parent up (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15670789)

I'm an American and I've been playing EvE for over a year. I've been in four corporations (guilds/factions/whathaveyou), and at least 50% of the people I meet are American. The other 50% I meet are mainly from Europe.

GP doesn't know wtf he's talking about.

Re:A protected world view. (1)

ceoyoyo (59147) | more than 7 years ago | (#15672188)

I always thought offside in soccer should be abolished. We never thought to bother with it during recess and VERY rarely enforced it later when I was refereeing.

Soccer in it's purest form -- a bunch of kids with a ball and some posts to mark goals. In knee deep snow, of course.

Re:A protected world view. (-1, Offtopic)

SirBruce (679714) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670469)

>So, danger and tangible loss does not appeal to Americans. (With the exception of NASCAR and a
>select few alternate forms of such sport like top-fuel dragracing.) This is inline with
>generalized social characteristics of an American. In that, being so common for an American to
>refuse to be held responsible and always trying to blame someone else, even for his own self-
>enduced misfortune. This is very important to consider, becuase the fear of being held
>responsible stems from the prospect of suffering consequences and in suffering, danger and loss
>is implied.

Oh yes, this is why we've got THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN DYING IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN. Because we're afraid of being held responsible. I'm sorry, when was the last time anyone in Europe (except the UK) stepped up to the plate? We had to help you guys out in the Balkans, too.

But thanks for reminding us just how fucking ungrateful most Europeans are. I'll be sure to remember this post the next time your country gets caught in next European war.

Bruce

Re:A protected world view. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15670634)

Wow - and to think I thought you did a service with the MMORPG chart. You're a fucking moron.

Oh yes, this is why we've got THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN DYING IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN. Because we're afraid of being held responsible.

Afghanistan? Yes. Iraq, on the other hand? Why the fuck DO you have thousands of men and women dying?

Even better, though, is that you DON'T have thousands dying. The Iraqis do. The American death count is something like 2000, over three years. So, yes, that's technically "thousands" but it's hardly "thousands" in the colloquial sense, especially compared to Iraqis dead. Hell, more Americans died on 9/11 than have died in Iraq.

I'm sorry, when was the last time anyone in Europe (except the UK) stepped up to the plate?

You're replying to an American, dipshit. Just goes to show how well the American school system teaches reading comprehension. (The relevant part was the FOURTH SENTENCE: There is a portion of the population in America who play, I myself am American.)

But thanks for reminding us just how fucking ungrateful most Europeans are.

Yep, thanks for reminding me how stupid and ass-backwards Americans are. You're yelling at an American by picking on Europeans, about a FUCKING VIDEO GAME.

Yeah, Americans are risk-adverse. That's why they invaded Iraq instead of, say, a country which posed a threat.

When was the last time a European country randomly invaded some other part of the world for no good reason? I'd guess probably around WWII, because randomly invading other parts of the world on flimsy pretexts appears to be primarily an American trait.

Beats fighting enemies who can actually fight back, at the least.

Re:A protected world view. (1)

blighter (577804) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670480)

Ah yes! The high probablility of "serious loss" must be why soccer is so popular to the rest of the world!

All those people getting seriously injured and even killed, that must be the appeal!

Or is it the endless sophistication of the game? Not the brain-dead, obviousness of basketball, football and baseball.

Let's see: you guys take this ball, try to get it through that goal. These guys over here are going to try to stop you. Yes, that's a grossly simplified and distorted version of the complexities of soccer, but no more so than your idiotic "take this ball and run until you hit a wall! Not that way, the other way! You're a hero!" rant on football.

Obviously you dislike American culture, which is completely your perogative. The parallels you drew in your rant, however, were ridiculous on their face, making your whole post read like the disdainful yelling of an ignorant child.

Something you might want to avoid in the future.

Back on topic (at least for a moment!) I've thought for some time that Eve looked like by far the most interesting of the MM's and if I didn't already have a thousand things taking up my increasingly limited free time (these slashdot posts don't write themselves, you know!) I'd think about picking it up. Still might if and when I build myself a capable computer.

Congratulations! (0, Troll)

DoctaWatson (38667) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670693)

This is perhaps the dumbest thing ever written on Slashdot. The depth of your ignorance is matched only by its breadth. The one topic on which you come close to expressing some level of reasonable expertise, EVE Online, is overshadowed by your obvious contempt for a wide swath of human existence which you seem determined to not understand.

Please, for the love of God, never try to communicate your thoughts to another human being ever again.

Re:Congratulations! (1)

CherniyVolk (513591) | more than 7 years ago | (#15671245)

This is perhaps the dumbest thing ever written on Slashdot. The depth of your ignorance is matched only by its breadth. The one topic on which you come close to expressing some level of reasonable expertise, EVE Online, is overshadowed by your obvious contempt for a wide swath of human existence which you seem determined to not understand.

It's easy to make a claim. As you have.

At least I gave examples, which were also factual. So you don't agree, or perhaps you are defensive. What is also a fact, which might ruffle your feathers even more is the tendancy of those who strongly disagree for no cause or reason, to do nothing more in retort than attempt to negatively comment on their opponents mental aptitude.

If you can't explain your side, don't bother trying to determine if a proposition is "right" or "wrong".

Re:Congratulations! (1)

Damvan (824570) | more than 7 years ago | (#15671563)

What facts?

All you did is list some things you perceive about American culture that you don't like. And you claim that your examples are factual? Again, I ask what facts? Americans don't like options? Your opinion. American culture is dumbed down? Again, your opinion. We won't like EVE because it is too difficult? Your opinion. You are an arrogant, self-righteous fucktard? Everyone else's opinion.

And then, when you are confronted with the fact that your post was idiotic drivel with no basis in reality, you respond with some bullshit about how people respond negatively to posts they know nothing about. Guess what buddy, that response was more reasoned and articulate than your mindless anti-American drivel.

How can we respond with a determination of whether or not your proposition is right or wrong when you didn't back up any of your arguments, they were simply statements of your opinion. So it is entirely applicable to respond to a list of your opinions with an opinion of his own, ie that you are an idiot.

Re:A protected world view. (1)

DonVictor (237831) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670913)

This is silly. Do people die playing soccer, other than drunk fans?

Most Americans don't like 'high risk' sports because it's hard to admire someone who is risking death just to get other people to clap for them. Being (in effect) a gladiator is not all that admirable according to the American world view. I'm from USA and I agree with this. Risking death to pull someone out of a burning car -- admirable. Risking death to score a goal - what were you thinking?

Similarly, there are folks in USA who like rap or Brittney Spears, folks in Germany who like Heavy Metal or techno, and a few people in each country who like classical. It is silly to try to group 'all Americans' or 'all Dutch'; if you find that you need to reduce any analysis to this level, then you should switch to a simpler topic.

If you can't understand a 3 course meal, don't put it in a blender to simplify it; analyze a donut instead, and do a good job at a simpler task.

The problem is, instead of starting out looking for reality, you are starting out with a conclusion and asking "how do I get there with these facts".

Re:A protected world view. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15670942)

You're a retard.

Soccer is just as brain dead as all the other sports.

Re:A protected world view. (1)

servognome (738846) | more than 7 years ago | (#15671222)

Basketball, baseball and football are all mechanically... very simple. Afterall, a jock has to understand what to do.

As opposed to your example of soccer?
Football, the top sport in the US, IMHO is the best blend of mental and physical competition of any sport.

So, danger and tangible loss does not appeal to Americans.

Physically players are highly specialized, from 5'10 170lb DBs, to 6'8 400lb linemen, and the danger is definately there. Injuries are a huge part of the sport, it is not uncommon for several top players to suffer season ending injuries each year. Great running backs usually have their careers ended before age 30 from wear.

Americans don't like 'options', which is bizarre becuase the general population are supposed to be 'consumers'. Options, require making a choice and making a choice requires some degree of analysis which is another way of saying "thinking".

For me what makes football great is the mental aspect. They may be "dumb jocks" but every player needs to memorize their role for hundreds of different plays (they are given large binders to memorize in training camp). Also, all players must also be able to recognize dozens of formations by the opposition, know how to react, and how their teammates will react.
For example a particular defensive formation against a particular offense play may trigger a number of reactions by the offense:
- blocking scheme for the linemen
- blocking scheme/route for the running backs
- route for the wide receivers
- read progression by the quarterback

And it is important for everybody to know what others are doing, since if the RB doesn't make the same read as the lineman, somebody can go unblocked. Or if a WR doesn't make the same read as the QB, the ball could be thrown 15 yards and the WR stops running at 10.

Compare the melodic sophistication of GreenDay with that of Jimi Hendrix, or The Beatles.

Green Day has NEVER been popular enough to tour in other countries, their style only can work in the US. Have you ever listened to Euro Pop or J-Pop music? It sucks just like American Pop music.

Music is an example that's gotten so bad... RAP, the "singers" don't even bother carrying a note or in other words... sing. That's much too hard to do; never mind the fact that poetic composition is also hard, which for a RAP artist, it's always customary for them to make stuff up or do whatever it takes to just make something rhyme even if it makes no sense at all with actual real words.

And Jazz musicians can't even play the music as it was written, they just make stuff up as they play. Rap music places emphasis on rhythm, rather than notes. Good rap, like good Jazz, requires sophistication to improvise well.

EVE is not simple, making the wrong move entails unforgiving consequences... these characteristics, in this day and age, is in total contrast of what Americans enjoy.

Football is not simple, and it is what Americans enjoy the most.

To stick with something to compare... WoW is big with Americans... maybe now, after reading my very brief explanation, this comes as no surprise

WoW is also popular in other parts of the world. What you describe is not an American phenomenon, it's that most people prefer a lower level of challenge than what EVE provides.

Re:A protected world view. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15672871)

You know nothing of American football. The game is very strategic, and very brutal.

Much more brutal than soccer. Did you watch any of the world cup? Players fall and scream "in pain" at the slightest touch, hoping that the ref would call a foul. Ridiculous.

Not that soccer isn't a good sport, but it's ridiculous to say that american football is somehow "safer". It's just not true.

But I'm really not sure why I'm responding to a troll. Your view of American culture is ignorant, at best.

Re:A protected world view. (1)

ClamIAm (926466) | more than 7 years ago | (#15672908)

mainstream music isn't even as musically "advanced" as even 30 years ago. Compare the melodic sophistication of GreenDay with that of Jimi Hendrix, or The Beatles. We can even take this one step forward and compare most American top 40 to Classical influences such as Beethoven. Clearly, on a cultural level, Americans are dumbed down to an unbelievable state. Music is an example that's gotten so bad... RAP, the "singers" don't even bother carrying a note or in other words... sing. That's much too hard to do; never mind the fact that poetic composition is also hard, which for a RAP artist, it's always customary for them to make stuff up or do whatever it takes to just make something rhyme even if it makes no sense at all with actual real words.

This is such bullshit I don't even know where to start. Do you seriously believe a majority of Americans like the shit that's played on every generic Top 40 radio station across the country?

I'm going to ignore, for a moment, the idiotic conclusion of "because some Americans like shitty music, all Americans are cultural Neanderthals". That being said, let's look at your actual arguments.

You start by implying that "more musically advanced" == "culturally superior". The only quantifiable way of measuring this level of "advancedness" would be by looking at the complexity of the music. Looking at almost anything else would be subjective, and therefore not quantifiable. Now let's think about how this would work in reality. Computers can compose arbitrarily complex rhythms, and do perfect counterpoint. I can't do either of these. Does this make my computer culturally superior to me?

Then you compare the "melodic sophistication" of some rock & roll groups. Okay, go ahead and ignore the fact that judging the "sophistication" of a piece of music is an entirely subjective affair. So anyway, we have Green Day vs. The Beatles. Once again, the only measurable way of comparing them would be to look at the complexity of their music. Unfortunately for you, if one were to sit down and actually do this, one would find strikingly similar composition. As a side note, I think it's pretty hilarious that your argument is pretty close to just typing "Green Day sucks! Hendrix is SOOO much better!!11".

And then you pull out Beethoven. Except there's a little problem. Beethoven is not, and has never been, popular music. Did Beethoven perform at local pubs? I don't think so. The same could be said of many Classical composers, many of whom took positions in royal courts or lived off the generosity of the aristocracy.

And then you pull out "rap". I admit that for a long time I would have adamantly said "rap isn't music", but that statement completely misses the point. Rapping can be roughly defined as "verse plus rhythm". Call it music if you want; if you don't want to, don't.

The thing I find interesting is that you list no specific rappers or groups. This is telling. I'm guessing you've heard some music on the radio that was labeled "rap", and it was shitty, and you didn't like it. Yet again, you follow the formula of "some of this music sucks, so I'm just going to assume all of it sucks, even though I have no proof". Contrary to your claim, there is a lot of good rap music. The bad part is that you probably won't ever hear it on the radio.

Also, claiming that "rappers" don't write music is completely and utterly false. There are hip-hop groups that perform using live instruments, and there are music groups who combine rapping with other musical styles.

But yeah, Americans are definitely the most dumbed-down people on the planet. Other places in the world have brilliant masterpieces like "Numa Numa". Those guys will be remembered much longer than shitty Americans like Aaron Copland or Charles Ives. (Note, this is SARCASM)

Eve Online story - MUST READ (3, Insightful)

Viking Coder (102287) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670287)

For anyone remotely curious about Eve Online, this story is a must read:

http://static.circa1984.com/the-big-scam.html [circa1984.com]

From the intro:

This is a story of deception, intrigue, and doublecrossing. It is a story of liars, bandits, and greed. It is a story of the worst of the human condition, and how the motive for profit will drive a normally nice guy to the deepest depths of evil and betrayal.

This is the story of my life in Eve Online.

I've played EVE (4, Insightful)

lonesome phreak (142354) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670343)

For a few months now. I think the biggest thing keeping people playing it is the complexity. On eve-online there are programs to help you choose the right types of weapons for range, speed, ship size, ammo type, and so on. There are about five different types of each turrent, going from really cheap to really expensive...and there is a definate difference in game play. Hundreds, if not thousands, of different combinations of different ship moduals that can change various attributes of the ships such as CPU usage, power output, sheilding (against four different types of damage like explosive, thermo, emp) all combine to make a complex game just to start out with.

Throw in corporations, pirates, wars...it really is like a different world. What I find most interesting in it is the fact I can start my character training on something, and then don't really need to go back and mess with the game until the training is done if I don't want to. The biggest problem is the amount of ISK (in-game money) that things cost. It takes weeks to get enough ISK together to build a decent battleship, and you can loose it in less than a minute. You sit in your escape pod...hopefully you bought some insurance, and even that isn't enough to get a ship like you had. There are pirates everywhere in low security space, and once you've dropped to .4 or lower (on a scale of .0 to 1, with 0 being mad-max land) anything goes pretty much. A few times I've come through a gate to be immediatly attacked. If I have a mission into low-sec space I'll put 2-3 warp coil stabilizers on the ship just so I can escape if I'm jumped.

EVE is definetly not a game for the casual player. To get a really good character is usually takes at least 6mo to a year to build up one character. But, if you enjoy space combat and corporate subterfuge, it is a very fun game. Also, even though it have great graphics, it's not overly-taxing on the system like WOW and COV.

Re:I've played EVE (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15671254)

>There are pirates everywhere in low security space, and once >you've dropped to .4 or lower (on a scale of .0 to 1, with 0 being >mad-max land) anything goes pretty much.

Gonna hafta call BS there. I've been ganked REPEATEDLY right outside major stations in 1.0 space. The "neutral police" did nothing, did not fire on him, etc. etc...

I loved the game but the frustration from gankers in the "newbie zones" is what caused me to quit.

Good Interview, Interesting Questions Remain (1)

aldheorte (162967) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670365)

This interview is worth reading if you are interested in Eve Online, though the interviewer asks a lot of easy questions. Some of the frontiers that Eve has arrived at are no longer virtual or strictly game related.

One question that the interviewer should have asked, since CCP was being candid about its revenue sharing with the Chinese licensee, is to what degree it will cooperate with the Chinese government on requests for user data a la the Yahoo! China fiasco? CCP seems to be adopting the policy of many other technology businesses by saying that the local licensee company is the one following Chinese laws.

This is, of course, a complete dodge of the pertinent question since there is a revenue sharing agreement and it's essentially required in China to have a local licensee because of restrictions on foreign ownership. In many instances, it's akin to saying, since I incorporated my business, I am no longer ethically responsible for the actions taken by my corporation with my consent.

The greater specter raised, and this is not a situation unique to CCP, is how willing will CCP be to provide information to the Chinese government from the *non-China* server? People may initially scoff at this and claim no Western company would do this on principle, but consider two points:

1. The Chinese government now has leverage on CCP as it could simply shut down the local licensee, or nationalize it, or keep it running and simply stop sending the agreed revenue stream to CCP. What would the impact be of the threat of this, especially if the Chinese operation is providing a lot of revenue?
2. That Western companies are willing to reveal any information, as admitted to the United States Congress, at all brings into question the ease of batting this concern aside by claiming that principle prevents.

I think it is clear that the Chinese government would be very interested indeed in chat and mail logs and corp/guild members of someone they suspect is a member of, say, Falun Gong on any of the systems, and, since everyone who signs up to play divulges their real name and address, this becomes more than a virtual concern.

The Big Scam (1, Interesting)

1WingedAngel (575467) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670505)

I was somewhat interested in the game until I read this. [circa1984.com] The bad taste in my mouth has always prevented me from picking up a copy.

Re:The Big Scam (1)

Viking Coder (102287) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670696)

Funny, that's precisely what drew me to Eve Online. It's not so much the fact that there was a jerk in the game, but that the type of interactions with other players was intense, that it caused those kinds of emotions - that it was ALLOWED and even enforced by the game mechanics... Very cool.

It also says: don't go in alone, kid - you'll get hurt.

Re:The Big Scam (1)

cowscows (103644) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670800)

You certainly can get scammed in EVE, and the GM's consider it to be part of the game. But if you're reasonably careful, you most likely won't have any problems.

That story must have occured earlier in the game's lifetime, because the amounts of money that he's talking about are not so outrageous now. Many of the larger corps move around billions of isk per day. There are ships that cost billions of isk. There have also been scams involving billions of isk.

Great Game (3, Informative)

Drakin020 (980931) | more than 7 years ago | (#15670682)

I played EVE for a long time. One of the biggest things to me was how Open ended it was. You could kill the police, be the police, raid your home station, or go make your own. There was SO MUCH you could do it was amazing.

Allot of players do say the game is slow to move. As in you have to work for a long time in order to get anywhere. For instance skills are based on a Real Time clock. When you want to train a skill it has a timer for how long it takes before it is complete. You can log off and the timer is still going. The downside to this is skills take a long time to level. Some taking months. This is what I think draws allot of players away. With simple games that you can be uber in less than a month such as WoW, most of the younger folks and less patient will migrate there. But for a hardcore, work your arse off, do whatever you want gaming experience, EVE is the winner hands down.

You will also hear that players who have been in the game longer will always be ahead of you. To an extent this is true. There player skills will be higher but that does not mean they will have advanced as much. You can be much lower in skill and still outwit another player. Where as WoW if you are down by 3 levels just start running now. The battle system in EVE allows the player to use his natural playing skills and strategy to overcome the odds. Other games it's a simple click...special here....mega bomb there....and it's over. There is so much strategy involved with EVE it is insane.

To put it short, EVE is the only game I know that is player Driven. What you do affects the world as a whole. You can do what you want be who you want, and really put your skills to the test. It's great to see games like these with such a mature community prevailing against the odds.

Eve is a great game to talk about, but not to play (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15670813)

Eve Online, as a concept, is really an amazing thing. Actually playing it, not so much.

It sounds like some sort of PvP nirvana, but the entirety of Eve Online PvP consists of mugging. Becuause of the costs, nobody enters combat unless they have a massive advantage.

The combat interface is about as bad as you can possibly imagine, requiring the user to bring up right-click menus for common tasks, keyboard shortcuts are virtually non-existant, save for turning modules on and off. The whole thing is incredibly tedious.

It took them three years before they put in a hotkey for "Reload All Guns". Previously, people apparently had to right-click and select reload on every gun, every time.

When I first started playing, I figured I probably didn't understand, or wasnt' used to, or whatever. Eventually I realized that it simply sucks, and Eve Online programmers are now working on a completely revamped graphics engine that will require Windows Vista and have absolutely no interest whatsoever in giving Eve a halfway decent combat interface.

Escape Velocity Online (1)

thorshammer42 (938406) | more than 7 years ago | (#15671104)

From what I've seen of it, EVE reminds me of what Escape Velocity would be like if they implemented a 3D Engine and made it massively multiplayer. Unfortunately, I use a Mac, so no EVE for me, or any MMORPG really, as WOW never appealed to me.

Re:Escape Velocity Online (1)

anti-human 1 (911677) | more than 7 years ago | (#15672667)

Don't worry, EV is still more fun. I tried EVE for a while, (trial) I wanted to keep playing at the end, but now I don't miss it. EVE definitely wasn't as story-driven (from what i saw in the trial), and it would drag someitmes (apparently space is big, who knew?). One of the cool things, like Escape Velocity, was that you could see all the cool shit you could play with someday. Tech outfits with a whole string of zeros and the like. I didn't find it as fun to play, as far as flying goes.

Combat was automated in EVE, and if you were outclassed by an opponent, it was over. EV took work to take out the better ships with some POS, but it wasn't futile. Maybe it was the (relative) simplicity. Arrow keys, some buttons on the left of the keyboard. EVE's interface, which was where most of the game was, was crazy-go-nuts. Something like 20 tabs on one side, for different aspects of the game, information, etc. In EV, you landed on a planet and took care of business, space was kind of a whole another activity.

I really can't find that much extra time to play an MMO. Counter-strike is pretty much all I go for as far as PC gaming. My mac is my primary computer these days (When I'm not at work :P), so i've stuck with EV and Marathon :P.

I"ll keep waiting for the real EV:Online. :P

EVE... Great concept, bad implementation (2, Interesting)

Andy Dodd (701) | more than 7 years ago | (#15671948)

EVE had a great concept. A complex, diverse, player driven economy. A player could focus on a wide variety of professions - Mining, research and development, manufacturing, combat, NPC hunting, or more.

Unfortunately, the implementation was horrible. Within 1-2 months the economy was in the crapper. There was virtually no profit in manufacturing, research never proved to be useful as there was almost no benefit whatsoever to putting a blueprint in for more than 3-4 cycles of research. Mining was insanely profitable only if you could get into one of the corporations that dominated insecure space. Combat was boring as hell - 2-3 hours of flying, 2-3 hours of gate camping, only to finally reach 30 seconds of intense combat.

I made it as far as having a Thorax blueprint of my own, along with owning my first battleship. Then I got BORED. Even as a member of one of the largest corps in the game, there was nothing that actually interested me.

Then Tech 2 came along. It was supposed to be the savior of the economy, finally guaranteeing manufacturers unique items that might actually make a profit. Nope, one corporation who had managed to stay in the lead with mining and one of only 3-4 that managed to get in on the manufacturing boom before it crapped out bought out all the Tech 2 blueprints and made the market even more FUBAR. While I happened to be in that corporation, it was sad seeing how lopsided the game was becoming.

Throughout this, let's not forget the bugs. Frequently major functions would get broken with a patch and not get fixed for 2-3 more patches. CCP NEVER revamped their precaching system to properly avoid gatecamping load lag exploits.

Last but not least, I can't point to any one single aspect of the game mechanics to cause it, but in general they were very conducive and if anything encouraged internal corporate strife. I was horrified what was happening to my corp, which consisted almost entirely of comrades of mine from a previous game, Planetarion. As the months went on, there was more and more internal arguing and strife, in many cases by people who used to be great friends.

I got tired of seeing what was happening and quit the game. A month and a half later, Xanadu practically split in two. I wasn't surprised at all, as it had been brewing for ages, but it was horrible to see former friends so angry at each other. EVE basically destroyed one of the best groups of gaming comrades I had ever been in.

I'm back in DAoC, and while I'm in general annoyed with Mythic, at least the game mechanics don't encourage guilds tearing themselves apart.

Re:EVE... Great concept, bad implementation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15672299)

So in other words you haven't played the game in 2 years?

Eve Online makes a Tale in the Desert look excitin (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15671985)

What an incredibly boring game. Its not even real time, the best you get is sending a course adjustment every 5 seconds. The leveling system is based on time. Real world time. Seriously, the advancement system consist of "have your account for a long time", so new players are completely fucked. Even the combat is ridiculously slow, tedious and boring, and that's the most exciting part of the game.

Cedega? (1)

ThreeE (786934) | more than 7 years ago | (#15673136)

How well does Eve work using Linux/Cedega? I've made the switch away from Windows -- I really don't want to have to boot back into that world...

I played Eve when it first came out and loved it -- it just tends to replace your real life too easily. For anyone with a real life, this game is acid.
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