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UK Gives Go-Ahead to Gary McKinnon Extradition

Zonk posted more than 8 years ago | from the normal-dition-not-enough dept.

309

robzster1977 writes "Judges in the UK have given the go-ahead to the extradition of UK hacker Gary McKinnon. McKinnon is accused of breaking into US Navy, Army and Department of Defense computers in 2001 and 2002." From the article: "On 4 July the secretary of state signed an order for Mr McKinnon's extradition to the United States for charges connected with computer hacking. Mr McKinnon had exercised his right to submit representations against return but the secretary of state did not consider the issues raised availed Mr McKinnon."

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Date? (3, Interesting)

The MAZZTer (911996) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671467)

Gotta wonder if he picked July 4th on purpose. :)

E-mail address (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15671878)

Think what it must be like to be him. Awful.

If I was him I'd want people to ask the government official concerned to overturn the ruling and not extradite him. E-mail: public.enquiries@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk

Freedom (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15671476)

This is a real tragedy for those who believe in the freedom to break into the computer systems of foreign militaries looking for UFOs.

Whoever they are.

Re:Freedom (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15671534)

When the Nazis arrested the Communists,
  I said nothing; after all, I was not a Communist.
When they locked up the Social Democrats,
  I said nothing; after all, I was not a Social Democrat.
When they arrested the trade unionists,
  I said nothing; after all, I was not a trade unionist.
When they arrested the Jews, I said nothing; after all, I was not a Jew.
  When they arrested me, there was no longer anyone who could protest.

- Martin Niemöller

Re:Freedom (2, Funny)

Tackhead (54550) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671557)

> When the Nazis arrested the Communists, I said nothing; after all, I was not a Communist.
> When they locked up the Social Democrats, I said nothing; after all, I was not a Social Democrat.
> When they arrested the trade unionists, I said nothing; after all, I was not a trade unionist.
> When they arrested the Jews, I said nothing; after all, I was not a Jew. When they arrested me, there was no longer anyone who could protest.

Now if only they'd come for the trite.

But I'll settle for them coming for the skr1pt k1dd13z who poke around in DoD honeypots and call themselves 31337 h4x0rz as a decent start.

Re:Freedom (0, Redundant)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671599)

Ya gotta wonder, if it's just a honeypot then how can you be charged for breaking into it?

Re:Freedom (1)

Andrew Kismet (955764) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671750)

Intent.

Re:Freedom (3, Insightful)

Chmcginn (201645) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671762)

Umm... cause

A.)The DOD still owns it

B.)Unauthorized access of a federal government computer is still a federal crime?

Re:Freedom (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671935)

I'm sorry, but have you even heard of entrapment?

That applies here how? (2, Informative)

Chmcginn (201645) | more than 8 years ago | (#15672113)

When a cop, dressed like a hooker, comes up to you and smiles pretty, and you offer her money, that's not entrapment.

When a cop, dressed like a hooker, comes up to you and says, "Two hundred for the night", and you try to haggle, that is entrapment.

Do you see the critical difference?

Re:That applies here how? (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 8 years ago | (#15672186)

No. See. If you ask the cop how much and she says "for you, $20", that's entrapment.

Re:That applies here how? (1)

Chmcginn (201645) | more than 8 years ago | (#15672301)

But if you go over to the cop/hooker and start rifling through her effects, even if she doesn't immediately try to stop you, and you take her wallet, that's not entrapment.

Now, out of all these scenarios, which one does poor Mr. McKinnon's most closely resemble?

Re:That applies here how? (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 8 years ago | (#15672339)

I think a better analogy is the police trying to catch car theives by leaving unlocked cars with tracking devices and cameras in them on dark streets. They even call them "honey trap cars" or "bait cars". Quite a number of these cases have been thrown out because of entrapment concerns.

Re:Freedom (4, Interesting)

Stickerboy (61554) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671611)

When the Americans arrested child rapists,
  I said nothing; after all, I was not a child rapist.
When they locked up the serial killers,
  I said nothing; after all, I was not a serial killer.
When they arrested the armed robbers,
  I said nothing; after all, I was not an armed robber.
When they arrested the spammers,
  I celebrated, because I'm a hypocrite about computer crimes.
  When they arrested me for breaking into a computer network, there was no longer anyone who could protest.

  - Stickerboy

Please (4, Insightful)

rockhome (97505) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671618)

Spare me the "hacking i OK if I ain't trying to break shit" bullshit.

Every hacker that has every been arrested has always claimed that he was only curious and looking around. Let me tell you something, if you walk into my front door, locked or not, that is still trespass, I don't care if you just wanted to get a look at my collection of potato chips resembling presidents.

This isn't a witch hunt. If you even use a phrase like "I broke in", then you know what side of the law that you are on. These guys are just angry because they know they are criminals, they got caught, and now they are facing the full force of the law. When are all of the Mitnick humpers going to get a clue and maybe not do things tha are illegal?

Re:Please (5, Insightful)

Amouth (879122) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671684)

when someone who just looks at unsecured goverment computers serves more time than someone who broke into some ones house and shot and killed some one for shit to pawn for money for drugs..

i am sorry but when the virtual world hits reality it doesn't seem that punishment fits the crime.

Re:Please (1)

nomadic (141991) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671724)

when someone who just looks at unsecured goverment computers serves more time than someone who broke into some ones house and shot and killed some one for shit to pawn for money for drugs..

AKA felony murder, and punishable by the death penalty in many, many states. And these computers weren't unsecured, just because he got in. It's like saying a house was unlocked because you jimmy the front door.

Re:Please (1)

Amouth (879122) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671877)

they had about the same security as rot13 is for crypto.. and felony murder is yes a major offence.. but how many of them get out after a few years for being good in jail.. this guy woln't get out early because they are using him as an example..

not quite fair

Re:Please (1)

vertinox (846076) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671886)

AKA felony murder, and punishable by the death penalty in many, many states.

Um... If you believe the system works you've got another thing coming. Especially in Camden, NJ. Last thing you ever want to be is called a "snitch". But I digress...

A better example would have been to compare him to a rapist who at most will get 20 years and will most likley only server 5.

Re:Please (1)

ScentCone (795499) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671858)

when someone who just looks at unsecured goverment computers serves more time than someone who broke into some ones house and shot and killed some one for shit to pawn for money for drugs..

Never mind that in most places, the guy who kills someone during an armed robbery will probably go away for life (or lose his life), it sounds like what you're arguing for is even harsher penalties for armed robbers/burglars. OK, that's fine.

Re:Please (1)

westlake (615356) | more than 8 years ago | (#15672142)

i am sorry but when the virtual world hits reality it doesn't seem that punishment fits the crime

In the american federal systen, crimes of violence are almost always prosecuted under state law. If you think sentencing is too light, talk to your state assemblyman or state senator.

But I wouldn't advise commiting a felony in DC or in any other setting where the feds do have jurisdiction.

This is not about hacking... (2, Interesting)

Spy der Mann (805235) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671782)

Spare me the "hacking i OK if I ain't trying to break shit" bullshit.

This is about someone being condemned unfairly to set a public example. Sort of what the RIAA does with "OMG the evil pirate filesharers!".

Because if you STILL believe there's justice in the USA, you might as well believe in spaceships from another planet. The USA should be treated like a dictatorship where human rights CONTINUE to be abused systematically.

Want an example? The NSA spying on the citizens. Curiously, it could be ALSO interpreted as "hacking" AT&T users. Are the guys who ordered wiretapping in jail? No, they aren't.

Justice, yeah right.

Re:Please (5, Insightful)

Gyarados (893032) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671827)

If you'd bothered to follow the case from the beginning, you'd understand why so many people are protesting against this series of outrageous decisions.

The United States have, through massive exaggeration and dishonesty, virtually abducted a British citizen in order to make him a scapegoat on which to blame the exceptional lack of security in their government computer systems.

Re:Please (1)

TheOneBiscuit (848777) | more than 8 years ago | (#15672025)

Intent is something that needs to be considered.
Using your analogy, but expanding it further in order to fit the scenario:
Say someone broke into your house because they thought an alien ran in there.
Break and enter? Yes.
Malicious? No.
Crazy? Probably.

Besides, this "l33t h@xx0r" got in through a blank admin password IIRC.

It all seems a little excessive.

Right, whatever (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15671631)

An interesting coincidence: notice it begins with "first they came for the communists". Not "first they came for the people who committed breaking and entering".

By injecting your quote here, and implying the extradition of Gary McKinnon is as worthy of concern as the various groups the Nazis quietly carted off, you are equating being a member of an unpopular religious, racial or political minority with simply breaking petty laws (like computer hacking laws). And by doing so, you are implicitly making the point of certain persons who think that arabs need to be shipped off to prison in Cuba because they are "criminals". Gee, great! Condoleeza Rice thanks you.

Meanwhile, tomorrow, somewhere in America, some kid is going to try to shoplift from a Wal-Mart, a security camera or rent-a-cop is going to catch him, and he will get arrested. For some reason, as he gets hauled off to Juvy, no blogger will be standing there to recite the "first they came for the"... quote in his memory. Wonder why.

Re:Freedom (1)

TubeSteak (669689) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671733)

The obvious (but not terribly popular) answer to that little puzzle is for you to be a Nazi.

That way you get to do the arresting.

Are You Insane? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15671836)

Your an idiot. You know why your an idiot? You are comparing one of the purest forms of evil to have ever walked G-d's green earth to a a country that while not allways correct, is a nation of LAWS. Lets do a quick compare shall we?

Nazi Germany:
Police State
Disagree, you die and disapear
Jew, Homosexual, Communist & more ? Die. Not just die, but die as an animal
Started a world war of conquest with an attempt to rule the world and murder everyone that wasn't arian and didn't believe in his f'd up religion (hitler was not a christian and hated them as much as jews)

Post 9/11 america:
An executive branch that is trying to run rampant with power, but has already been checked by our courts (and will be out of office in a couple of years)
A bad war in iraq, which the majority of this country no longer supports and wants our troops home and stop spending billions on rebuilding iraq.

So you tell me that that poem applys here. Granted, I'm not the poor muslim shmuck with the same name as a bazillion terrorists and gets hassled at the airport. But at the same time to draw the same paralel is not only rediculous, it goes against the very meaning of that poem. You want to make tour bed with N Korea, Iran, Syrya, Cuba and Iran then be my fircken guest!

The trick is... (2, Funny)

chill (34294) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671478)

Hey, Gary.

Conjugal visits? Mmmm. Not that I know of. Y'know, minimum-security prison is no picnic. I have a client in there right now. He says the trick is: kick someone's ass the first day, or become someone's bitch. Then everything will be all right.

Re:The trick is... (1)

Lord Kano (13027) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671489)

He says the trick is: kick someone's ass the first day, or become someone's bitch.

The first option sounds a lot more pleasant.

LK

Re:The trick is... (2, Funny)

Who235 (959706) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671551)

The first option sounds a lot more pleasant.


Sure it does.

And we all know that guys who spend their time looking for suppressed UFO technologies in other people's military computers are generally real badasses - especially compared to violent prisoners.

Yeah, he'll be running shit in no time. . .

Re:The trick is... (1)

Lord Kano (13027) | more than 8 years ago | (#15672344)

Being an unexpectedly bad Mo' Fo' might take him pretty far.

Didn't you ever kick anyone's ass in high school?

LK

Re:The trick is... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15671640)

Ahh, yes, the inevitable jokes about rape. You are a despicable excuse for a human being.

Re:The trick is... (4, Insightful)

killjoe (766577) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671973)

This guy modded as being funny but it's sad. Every crime in america contains an adjuct sentence of repeated forcible rape and gang rape. Even for mild offences like check kiting, or smoking dope. Whatever your sentence is you have to add being raped several times a week to it.

That's what passes for law and order here. Being raped for all crimes no matter how minor.

Re:The trick is... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15672103)

What's the matter, kid, don't recognize a quote when you see one?

Re:The trick is... (1)

chill (34294) | more than 8 years ago | (#15672117)

I was modded as funny because MOST people recognized the quote from Office Space -- a very funny and geek-popular movie.

Twit.

good (4, Informative)

mr_tommy (619972) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671487)

One finds it hard to disagree with the judgement that a hacker who illegally breaks into someone's system should face jail time. Regardless of his supposed hunt (and his curiously as yet un-proven discovery) of UFO technology, or the dubious figures of damages the US government produced, what he did was wrong. The problem really lies in the way we in the UK have implemented extradition legislation to the US. Evidence is not required going one way - UK -> USA - but is the other, as congress has yet to ratify / pass the law. This seems remarkably un-fair on British citizens, and in this sense, you can understand his frustration - and that of others - note the so called Natwest 3 who appear to be heading off to western shores in the near future.

Re:good (3, Insightful)

biglig2 (89374) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671553)

Exactly right, even leaving aside the whole issue of how bad what he did really is, it is way too easy for the US to get someone extradited from the UK. They could put him in Guantanamo Bay for all we know...

I'm proud to be a subject of Her Majesty, and accept my responsibilities under her laws - but how come I have to accept rulings from a judge in Brussels or the US? I'm sure they're all very nice people, but they're nto the boss of me. Or at least they shouldn't be.

Re:good (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15671626)

how come I have to accept rulings from a judge in the US?

[1] Because you hacked into a computer in the US. Don't commit crimes in other countries, and you won't have to answer to their legal system.

[2] Because the elected government in your own country decided to ship your sorry ass over here to answer for your crime.

Re:good (5, Insightful)

IgnoramusMaximus (692000) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671949)

Don't commit crimes in other countries, and you won't have to answer to their legal system.

The Chinese government hereby requests your extradition for execution and subsequent trial for voicing opinions in direct oposition to the Party's doctrine on the Internet acessible (by mistake) from China. That is if Iranians do not manage to get you first for daring to speak ill of Islam (evidence of which was secretly presented in a secret prioceeding of a secret court). And so on...

Newsflash: the whole point is that one, by definition, cannot be held liable for crimes abroad if he/she was not physically there while commiting them.

An accusation of "computer" or "internet" crime does not magically change the basic logic of this, it would be equally silly if he had made prank calls to the Iranian Mullahs (severely punishable in Iran, I am sure) or sent booze by mail to the Saudi Crown Prince (which would probably get someone from Saudi Arabia beheaded if he had done so). The foreign laws simply do not apply to activities commitied while in UK.

[2] Because the elected government in your own country decided to ship your sorry ass over here to answer for your crime.

Which of course is the apex of the stupidity on the part of the UK government and an extemely dangerous precedent. In essence, the UK has acknowledged supremacy of US law and courts over its own by doing this. It is a stance of a poodle beaten into sulking submition, not a proud, independent nation.

Re:good (2, Insightful)

wombert (858309) | more than 8 years ago | (#15672126)

the whole point is that one, by definition, cannot be held liable for crimes abroad if he/she was not physically there while commiting them.

So if I push this big red button, and it launches a missile across the border...

Re:good (2, Insightful)

Pantero Blanco (792776) | more than 8 years ago | (#15672237)

The whole point is that one, by definition, cannot be held liable for crimes abroad if he/she was not physically there while commiting them.
So if I push this big red button, and it launches a missile across the border...


...Then your home country will prosecute you, or risk retaliation from the other country.

Re:good (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15672230)

are you stupid? i have to be physically present to commit a crime? so if i launch a nuclear missile from my backyard here in the US, and it explodes on a different continent, I'm all good?

stopped reading there

Re:good (1)

jjohnson (62583) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671702)

Then you don't really accept your responsibility under your Majesty's laws, do you? It was Queenie herself who signed the law agreeing to the extradition treaty.

Re:good (2, Informative)

Petrushka (815171) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671790)

It was Queenie herself who signed the law agreeing to the extradition treaty.

Just for reference -- I'm sure there are those who don't know -- Queenie herself signs all the parliamentary laws in the UK. (Though it's also worth pointing out that the last time a British monarch got away with refusing to sign one was in 1708.)

Re:good (1)

biglig2 (89374) | more than 8 years ago | (#15672053)

This is all true. Was it Churchill who said that Democracy is the worst system of Government, apart form all the others? What is it, about 65% of people did not vote for the current UK government, what kind of a mandate is that? Of course, it's all the people's own fault, they can't be arsed to vote any more.

Can you imagine what it must be like to be the Queen though? The temptation to tell Blair to just fuck right off... You gotta admire her restraint. Perhaps she's saving it for Brown? "I have decided upon careful consideration that, with the devolution of Scotland, it would not be right to appoint a Prime Minister with a constituency there, so I will not invite you to form a Government."

Re:good (1)

jjohnson (62583) | more than 8 years ago | (#15672129)

I'm certain that any temptation Lizzie might entertain is immediately quashed by the knowledge that the Windsors receive a royal bungload of money from the government for their maintenance. Attempts in the past to reduce that funding have been met with shocked appeals to the commoners about preserving the majesty of the crown; the commoners eat that shit up like blood pudding, apparently.

Re:good (1)

biglig2 (89374) | more than 8 years ago | (#15672199)

Well, that royal bungload came to slightly over £11 million in 2005, so let us ask ourselves a simple question:

"How much more do you think President Mandelson would cost each year?"

Re:good (1)

whoever57 (658626) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671666)

The problem really lies in the way we in the UK have implemented extradition legislation to the US. Evidence is not required going one way - UK -> USA
The Daily Telegraph has been running a campaign and is soliciting "signatures" to an open letter [telegraph.co.uk] to the home secretary demanding changes. This has been prompted by the case of the "NatWest three", who have been caught up by the Enron scandal, although there seems to be no reason for prosecution of these three in the US (since all the allegations concern events in the UK).

guantanemo for pushing the big red button (5, Insightful)

know1 (854868) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671502)

If they leave the big red button there with no security around it or guards, eventually someone is going to push it simply because they can. This guy could have actually been destructive, and took their network down. He didn't. spare me the "yadda yadda it was very serious" replies, anyone with a glint of technical knowledge knows it wasn't.

Hail the new american slogan, "It isn't fascism when we do it!"

I've seen this guy in interviews. A clever man, who obviously has a lot more to give to the world. Shame he's going to get disappeared.

Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (1)

mr_tommy (619972) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671510)

Would you commit murder if there was no such thing as police?

Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (1)

know1 (854868) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671536)

see aforementioned post as to the point of the seriousnous of this. it was more a case of trespassing in someones house who had left the back door open. not burglary, and certainly not murder. way to over-react.

Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15671628)

...if I understood you, that was a YES, if 'murder' wasn't that serious.

      So, it's O.K. to break the law, as long as no-one is hurt... this time? And what about other countries where life isn't valued? Is it alright to as long as it isn't 'serious,' and everyone who thinks this is wrong and should be punished is 'over reacting' ...Did I get you right?

Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (1)

Amouth (879122) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671652)

hummm .. to be honest.. yea.. i more than not would... sure i would regret it but i would be sure in my self that i was cleaning the the population.

now the real question you have to ask is.. whom would i kill..

Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (1)

Moofie (22272) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671688)

Would you commit murder if "murder" was defined as eating a bowl of breakfast cereal?

Just because they call it "hacking", doesn't mean it was anything of any interest to anybody at all ever.

Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (1)

plantman-the-womb-st (776722) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671737)

Who wouldn't? If murder was not illegal, people would be dropping like flies in America. Some of our biggest cultural heroes were mass murderers. At the people cheered them on.

Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (1)

adamofgreyskull (640712) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671773)

No offence, but that's a little assinine. Are you likening a computer crime that is more akin to trespass, to murder? If you think what he did is on the same level as murder then I despair of you, I really do.

Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (1)

vertinox (846076) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671833)

Would you commit murder if there was no such thing as police?

Personally no, but to be fair having police and death penalties doesn't really seem to disuade people from murdering.

We had 300 murders in my city alone last year and it isn't as bad as Camden across the river.

Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (1)

Stonent1 (594886) | more than 8 years ago | (#15672034)

having police and death penalties doesn't really seem to disuade people from murdering.

Well, the latter sure cuts down on repeat offenders!

Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (1)

westlake (615356) | more than 8 years ago | (#15672048)

Would you commit murder if there was no such thing as police?

In traditional societies such matters are settled by the warlord, the family or the clan. Sometimes through the punishment of nn innocent: the gang rape of your wife or daughter perhaps.

There is always a mechanism in place to discipline those who cannot discipline themselves.

The question you ask has no meaning.

Re:Let's see.... (1)

botzi (673768) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671517)

...if it's the last time we haer of him.

Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15671649)

That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time, and I teach computer science to undergrads. You are basically saying that if something isn't guarded or protected, then the law isn't important enough to be respected.

I guess you would be happier if we were being monitored 24 hours a day. Who's fascist now?

Also, where does it say anything about this dude going to guantanamo? or disappeared? If he goes to federal prison you can even check on him via a web site: here [bop.gov]

He will be disappeared (1)

gd23ka (324741) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671659)

if you don't continually ask for him.

"I've seen this guy in interviews. A clever man, who obviously has a lot more to give to the world. Shame he's going to get disappeared."

Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15671667)

1. This wasn't the equivalent of a big red button. He "broke into" (or whatever you want to call it) US government and military computer systems.

2. This complete dumbass claims he saw evidence of US UFO coverups (LOL!) but conveniently has no proof.

3. He's not going to get "disappeared" or go to Guantanamo Bay, you complete and utter fuckface. I can't believe you believe that shit. NOTHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO THIS GUY, except maybe getting fined and going to jail. You're a first rate cocksucker. And no, he's not going to "only get jailtime now" because of "all the publicity". If you even think that, you're stupider than you sound.

4. How in the FUCK is this +4?

Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15671670)

I've seen this guy in interviews. A clever man, who obviously has a lot more to give to the world.

He obviously isn't that clever. Clever men don't go around hacking into military computer networks (or at least they don't get caught doing it). This guy is obviously totally fucking stupid, and I really don't have any sympathy for him.

Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (1)

sl4shd0rk (755837) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671678)

I doubt he's going to rott in some prison. Most likely, they are going to cut a deal with him if he educates them in what he did/how he did it. We'll never hear about it though.

Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (1)

ErikTheRed (162431) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671740)

If they leave the big red button there with no security around it or guards, eventually someone is going to push it simply because they can.
Nobody waved a big red button in front of his face; he found it and pushed it. You can argue malicious intent, and it will indeed probably affect his sentencing, but tresspass is still a crime. If you don't like it, why don't you open up your home and information systems to random strangers first?

Hail the new american slogan, "It isn't fascism when we do it!"
Definition of Fascism: "A philosophy or system of government that is marked by stringent social and economic control, a strong, centralized government usually headed by a dictator, and often a policy of belligerent nationalism." I suppose people could argue about this, but either way it has nothing to do with this topic. Somebody breaks the law. Somebody gets caught. Somebody gets extradited. Happens in democratic countries, communist countries, fascist dictatorships, etc.

I've seen this guy in interviews. A clever man, who obviously has a lot more to give to the world.
Too bad he wasn't using his alleged cleverness in an attempt to do something lawful. He's hardly the first smart person to use his intellect in the wrong manner. Unfortunately, he chose a pursuit that will result in him wasting a portion of his life in prison.

Shame he's going to get disappeared.
Let's see... "disappeared" in the context you're using it means he'll be murdered and his body disposed of in an unmarked grave so as never to be found. One can argue about the pros and cons of the American judicial system, but I don't think we're quite to this point yet.

The funny thing about you people in the "Hate America - Hate Bush" crowd is that you're the ones propping him up. He's unpopular, inarticulate, gets hammered constantly by the press, and he and his party still got re-elected (and will again this year). Why? Because his loudest detractors spew a constant stream of such obviously stupid bullshit - like your post - that people think "I may not like Bush, but his opponents are worse." Of course, this being Slashdot, shooting yourself in the foot with both barrels like this gets modded "Insightful."

I've got it, again! (1)

Chmcginn (201645) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671831)

Definition of Fascism: "A philosophy or system of government that is marked by stringent social and economic control, a strong, centralized government usually headed by a dictator, and often a policy of belligerent nationalism."

That's it! As long as the economic controls are more akin to monkeys hitting buttons, they can't call us fascists! You, dear Mr. Thered, deserves an Iron Cross. I mean, a Presidential Medal of Freedom.

Re:I've got it, again! (1)

ErikTheRed (162431) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671901)

You, dear Mr. Thered, deserves an Iron Cross. I mean, a Presidential Medal of Freedom.
Wow! First reply is already hitting Godwin's Law [wikipedia.org] ! This isn't even a terribly clever ad hominem. Are you too lazy or too stupid to come up with an intelligent response? Oh yeah, this is Slashdot, never mind.

Well, somebody's really defensive today... (1)

Chmcginn (201645) | more than 8 years ago | (#15672140)

Considering that I was more making the comment that the 'belligerent nationalism' and 'social control' seemed to be some politicians goal of late, and yet the idea of economic controls in an anathema to the Republican party, your response is a bit overdone. But, like you said, this is slashdot, so go ahead and take everything personal.

Guantánamo is the big red herring (1)

HighOrbit (631451) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671905)

First, if this guy was going to Guantanamo Bay, he'd already be there. You can tell that he is not going there because this is being handled publically in civil courts. He is going to have a public trial before a regularly constituted court, and if convicted he will go to a civilian federal prison.

Secondly, you obviously have no idea of what constitutes fascism as a political and economic ideology, please read up on it here [wikipedia.org] .

Third, can you please tone down the knee-jerk anti-americanism is regards to random subjects that have nothing to do with its foreign policy?

Thank you

Re:Guantánamo is the big red herring (1)

killjoe (766577) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671959)

"Third, can you please tone down the knee-jerk anti-americanism is regards to random subjects that have nothing to do with its foreign policy?"

Yes. America is a special place. You have no right to be anti american. you can be anti any other country but not anti american.

Also please wait till america is actually a fascist state before ciritizing it. There is no sense in critizing it during it's slide into facism.

Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (1)

ScentCone (795499) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671909)

If they leave the big red button there with no security around it or guards, eventually someone is going to push it simply because they can.

So if you leave your eldery mum on a park bench for an hour, feeding the pigeons, are you "fascist" when you applaud the police for arresting someone that pushes her aside and goes through her purse? I mean, she's just sitting there, with no guards or anything. It's just going to happen - it's probably even a big, red purse.

You're exactly the sort of idiot that makes everyone who, despite some misgivings, votes for the people that you dislike convinced that they did the right thing.

Truth, Justice and The American Way (3, Insightful)

earthlingpink (884677) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671524)

What's the consensus on this board, guys? Will Mr. McKinnon receive a trial of comparable fairness in the US as in the UK? If found guilty, will his sentence be proportionate to his crime (the DoJ has indicted him on seven counts of computer fraud, each with a maximum of ten years imprisonment and a $250,000 fine)?

Re:Truth, Justice and The American Way (3, Interesting)

erroneus (253617) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671629)

Since the first time I heard the expression "Truth, Justice and the American Way" I asked myself, why are those listed separately? In my naive days, I used to think that truth and justice were part of the American way. Clearly, this isn't the case any longer... was it ever? Looking back on the way the nation's founders started a nation with slavery, the nation expanded by committing mass murder, making treaties, breaking them when it was convenient.

I used to feel like the Americans (myself included) always wore the "white hat." Looking back, I'm just not qite so certain of that.

So yes, it now makes more sense to me that those three items are listed separately... The American Way does not include truth or justice.

Re:Truth, Justice and The American Way (1)

earthlingpink (884677) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671661)

Thanks for that, erroneus! Never thought of that triad as a Venn diagram before! Interesting insight: I'll definitely remember that one!

Re:Truth, Justice and The American Way (1)

Martin Blank (154261) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671742)

When I used to hear it, I always figured that Truth and Justice are largely universal, and that the American Way stood for the methods by which those were safeguarded in the United States. Haven't thought much about the phrase in years, though.

Re:Truth, Justice and The American Way (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15672086)

FYI, the American Way [google.com] is in Menlo Park (Northern edge of silly-cone valley for those of you smart enough to live some place else). It is a no-through street!

Re:Truth, Justice and The American Way (1)

ScentCone (795499) | more than 8 years ago | (#15672185)

Looking back on the way the nation's founders started a nation with slavery

You wouldn't be confusing the nation's founders with the European colonists that actually showed up with and imported more slaves for a good 100+ years before the country was formed? Or the bitter civil war that was fought, among reasons, to put a stop to those practices in the remaining states that were still clinging to the colonial economic model? Oh, I guess you would be confusing those.

Re:Truth, Justice and The American Way (1)

megaditto (982598) | more than 8 years ago | (#15672221)

Will Mr. McKinnon receive a trial of comparable fairness in the US as in the UK?

Sure, as long as he's not a gay flag-burning alien genetics professor preaching partial birth evolution.

Gonna get a Troll for that, ain't I? Couldn't resist...

"THE LION KING" (-1, Offtopic)

GET THE FACTS! (850779) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671525)

[Confrontation Scene] {Simba is making his way up Pride Rock. Scar calling his mother causes him to pause and watch.} Scar: SARABI! {Sarabi ascends Pride Rock. The hyenas snap at her heels. She only glares disdainfully at them.} Sarabi: Yes, Scar? Scar: Where is your hunting party? They're not doing their job. Sarabi: {Calmly} Scar, there is no food. The herds have moved on. Scar: No. You're just not looking hard enough. Sarabi: It's over. There is nothing left. We have only one choice. We must leave Pride Rock. Scar: We're not going anywhere. Sarabi: Then you have sentenced us to death. Scar: Then so be it. Sarabi: {Disgusted, amazed} You can't do that. Scar: I'm the king. I can do whatever I want. Sarabi: If you were half the king Mufasa was you would nev-- {Scar hits Sarabi, knocking her to the ground.} Scar: I'm ten times the king Mufasa was! {Simba appears on the ledge, growling loudly. He leaps out and runs to his mother. Scar mistakes Simba as Mufasa and is understandably frightened.} Mufasa? No. You're dead. {Sarabi awakens at her son's nudge, but mistakes him as Mufasa as Scar did.} Sarabi: Mufasa? Simba: No. It's me. Sarabi: {Delighted} Simba? You're alive? {Confused} How can that be? Simba: It doesn't matter; I'm home. Scar: {Confused} Simba...? {back in form} Simba! I'm a little surprised to see you, {giving the hyenas above him an angry look} alive... {On the word "alive," Shenzi, Banzai, and Ed gulp audibly and slink into the shadows.} Simba: {As Sarabi looks on with some pride} Give me one good reason why I shouldn't rip you apart. Scar: {Backing into a wall, apologetic} Oh, Simba, you must understand. The pressures of ruling a kingdom... Simba: ...Are no longer yours. Step down, Scar. Scar: Oh, oh, ye-- Well, I would, heh, naturally, heh-- however, there is one little problem. You see them? {pointing to the horde of hyenas on the rocks above} They think I'M king. {Nala appears with the rest of the lionesses.} Nala: Well, we don't. Simba is the rightful king. Simba: The choice is yours, Scar. Either step down or fight. Scar: Oh, must it all end in violence? I'd hate to be responsible for the death of a family member. Wouldn't you agree, Simba? Simba: That's not gonna work, Scar. I've put it behind me. Scar: Eh, but what about your faithful subjects? Have they put it behind them? Nala: Simba, what is he talking about? Scar: {Delighted} Ahh, so you haven't told them your little secret. Well, Simba, now's your chance to tell them. Tell them who is responsible for Mufasa's death! {Scar's last line causes the lionesses to start. All are concentrating on Simba.} Simba: {Steeling himself, then taking a step forward} I am. {Sarabi approaches her son.} Sarabi: {With much grief} It's not true. Tell me it's not true. Simba: {Regretfully} It's true. Scar: You see! He admits it! Murderer! {Lightning crashes behind Scar's head to punctuate the line.} Simba: No. It was an accident. {Scar walks around and around Simba as he accuses him; very nicely done animated rotation.} Scar: If it weren't for you, Mufasa would still be alive. It's your fault he's dead; do you deny it? Simba: No. Scar: {Severely} Then... you're... guilty. Simba: No. I'm not a murderer. Scar: Oh, Simba, you're in trouble again. But this time, Daddy isn't here to save you. And now EVERYONE.. KNOWS... WHY! {Scar has been backing Simba up the length of Pride Rock. After his last sentence, Simba slips over the edge and is clinging to the ledge by his forepaws. Lightning strikes below, igniting a fire.} Nala: Simba! {Scar sits back and pretends to think.} Scar: Now this looks familiar. Hmm. Where have I seen this before? Let me think. Hmmm... hmmm. Oh yes, I remember. This is just the way your father looked before he died. {Scar grabs Simba with his claws as he did Mufasa. He whispers into Simba's ear.} And here's MY little secret: I killed Mufasa. {Simba has a quick memory flash back to that fateful instant. His voice blends with his younger voice in the scream of when his father died. In one giant leap he lunges up and pins Scar on his back. Scar is caught completely by surprise and is understandably very nervous and shaken.} Simba: NoooooOOOO! ...Murderer! Scar: No, Simba, please. Simba: Tell them the truth. Scar: Truth? But truth is in the eye of the beholdllgkkk! {Simba starts to choke Scar.} All right. All right. {quietly, venomously} I did it. Simba: So they can hear you. Scar: {Grudgingly, but clear} I killed Mufasa! {Nala starts towards Scar, the hyenas attack Simba in a wall of teeth. The lionesses join in. We see Pumbaa and Timon come in. Pumbaa is charging with Timon riding him. Hyenas are flying everywhere.} Pumbaa: Heeeyyyy-yaaaaah! Timon: 'Scuse me. Pardon me. Comin' through. Hot stuff. Whoo! {Bowling strike sound effect as hyenas fly. Rafiki whacks a hyena off Simba. Camera switch to him; with a battle scream, he joins the fray. As a bit of comic relief, Rafiki is fighting in kung-fu "B-movie" style, complete with cheesy sound effects.} Rafiki: {As he hits various hyenas} WwwA! Hozah! Hazoww! Yaa! Yah! hhyEEOOWww! {Camera switch to Timon running from Shenzi. He runs into the cave. Zazu spots him. Timon runs into his cage for safety from the hyenas.} Zazu: Let me out! Let me out! Timon: Let me in! Let me in! {To the hyenas, pleading} ...Ple-he-hease don't eat me. {Pumbaa appears at the cave's entrance.} Pumbaa: Problem? Banzai: Hey, who's the pig? Pumbaa: Are you talking to me? Timon: Uh oh. They called him a pig. Pumbaa: Are you talking to me?! Timon: Shouldn't 'a done that. Pumbaa: ARE YOU TALKING TO ME?!? Timon: Now they're in for it. Pumbaa: They CALL me... MIIISTER PIG! AAAAAHHH... {Pumbaa charges and drives the hyenas off.} Timon: Take that! And that! {etc.} Banzai: Ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ... Pumbaa: Take that! And that! {etc.} You yellow belly... Zazu: Take that, you stupid... {etc.} {They start the Arsenio Hall "Ooh, ooh" chant. The scene switches to Simba chasing Scar up to the high point of Pride Rock. Scar runs up to the edge and sees the sheer drop. Simba leaps up to confront him at the cliff-like edge. Scar is very apprehensive, seeing he is cornered and at Simba's mercy.} Simba: {Quietly, severely} Murderer. Scar: Simba, Simba. Please. Please have mercy. I beg you. Simba: You don't deserve to live. Scar: But, Simba, I am... ah... {unsure of his tactic} family. It's the hyenas {regaining composure} who are the real enemy. It was their fault-- it was their idea! {Shenzi, Banzai, and Ed are in the background. They overhear and back away growling at Scar's betrayal.} Simba: Why should I believe you? Everything you ever told me was a lie. Scar: What are you going to do? You wouldn't kill your old Uncle...? {ingratiating grin} Simba: No, Scar. I'm not like you. Scar: {Greatly relieved} Oh, Simba, thank you. You are truly noble. I'll make it up to you, I promise. How can I, ah, prove myself to you? Tell me; I mean, anything. Simba: {Gravely, with deep anger} Run. Run away, Scar. And never return. Scar: Yes. Of course. As you wish... {looking down and seeing a pile of hot coals} ...your Majesty! {Scar swipes the coals into Simba's face. With a cry of surprise and pain, Simba paws the coals away as Scar leaps and attacks.} {There is a fight in slow motion. Both Scar and Simba land heavy blows. Simba gets knocked on his back. Scar leaps through the flames at him. Simba gathers courage and uses Scar's momentum in a "throw" similar to Nala's fighting tactics to send him flying over the edge. Scar tumbles to the bottom. He weakly gets up. He sees Banzai, Shenzi, and Ed approaching and smiles. Ed has a very angry look on his face.} Scar: Ahh, my friends. Shenzi: Frie-he-hends? I thought he said we were the enemy! Banzai: Yeah, that's what I heard. Banzai and Shenzi: Ed? Ed: {Laughs evilly} Scar: {Very nervous} No. L-L-L-Le-Le-Le-Le-Let me explain. No. You don't understand. No! I didn't mean for... No, No! Look, I m sorry I called you... No! NOO! {The camera moves away and we can only see the shadows as the horde of hyenas closes on and devours Scar. Rain opens up and douses the fire. Simba comes down and greets his mother and Nala. Rafiki motions for Simba to ascend Pride Rock as king. Simba starts up and pauses to hug Rafiki as his father did.} Rafiki: It is time. {Very majestically, he ascends through the rain. Music is strong. Through a hole in the clouds we can see a patch of stars. One bright star shines out briefly.} Mufasa: Remember . . . {Simba's expression gains confidence and strength. He roars. The lionesses roar in reply. Time switch to the savannah in full bloom again. Cue "Busa" theme:} BS: Busa le lizwe [Rule this land] Busa le lizwe [Rule this land] Busa le lizwe [Rule this land] Bus-busa ngo xolo [Rule, rule with peace] {Obscured verse} MS: Se-fi-le Baba ti-tabo Maye babo Busa lomhlaba [Rule this land] BS: {Obscured verse} MS: He! Se-fi-le Busa Simba! Busa Simba! [Rule Simba! Rule Simba!] Ubuse ngo xolo [You must rule with peace] Ubuse ngo thando [You must rule with love] Ubuse ngo xolo [You must rule with peace] Ubuse ngo thando [You must rule with love] Ubuse ngo xolo [Rule with peace] {Simba, Timon, Pumbaa, and Nala are on Pride Rock. Zazu flies up to the point. Timon, of course, is shaking his arms in the classic victory sign. All the groups of herds are there and making noise as in the presentation of Simba.} BS: Ingonyama nengw' enamabala Ingonyama nengw' enamabala MS: (ngw' enamabala-wa) Full Chorus: Till we find our place On the path unwinding In the Circle The Circle of Life Circle of... Liiife {Rafiki appears, holding Kiara. He lifts her to present her to the crowd. Bass drum hit and black out to title in red lettering as in the beginning. The Circle is completed.} {BOOM}

"Poor Dumb Son Of a Bitch" (5, Insightful)

Quirk (36086) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671535)

"Poor dumb son of a bitch", were the words uttered by Dorthy Parker over the casket of F. Scott Fitzgerald. Fitzgerald had sold out to Hollywood and, if I understand Parker's sentiment, Fitzgerald was way out of his league in the dog eat dog world of Hollywood.

Gary McKinnon is another poor dumb son of a bitch. He may well be mentally ill. There's a saying among criminals, don't do the crime if you can't do the time. I think McKinnon will get eaten alive, served up as a reminder that big brother cuts you no slack when it comes to stealing their information.

Master criminals execute plans, most convicts commit crimes. Convicts get caught up in committing a crime, they're their own drug dealers and they're junkies. Their brains serve them up a high that comes from breaking the law. Convicts fill our prisons and take their cred from the hard time they do. McKinnon is his own junkie, a convict juiced on committing a crime. His delusions will probablly cost him his life whether he gets to go on living or not.

just my loose change

Re:"Poor Dumb Son Of a Bitch" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15671954)

I think McKinnon will get eaten alive, served up as a reminder that big brother cuts you no slack when it comes to stealing their information.

We've been all through this. it isn't stealing. It's copyright infringement.

elbuf.

Congratulations, Gary McKinnion! (1, Troll)

Greyfox (87712) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671635)

You've won an ALL EXPENSE PAID vacation to BEAUTIFUL GUANTANIMO BAY, CUBA! You'll spend an indeterminate period of time in a spacious 3x5 foot chicken wire cell! Cavort with the other happy resort inhabitants! Experience the latest in tesitcle-shocking apparati! Wonder at our lavish crap-buckets! ALL THIS WILL BE YOURS! Thanks for playing, look forward to seeing you!

Extradite == make an example of (5, Insightful)

purple_cobra (848685) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671647)

Great to see the UK judiciary bending-over for a foreign power. Maybe there's a some sort of medal in it for you too?
McKinnon committed a crime here too and, as a UK citizen, he should be tried here. Of course, the USUK 'special relationship' is the most important factor here so the extradition order was signed without so much as a second glance.
"Britons never shall be slaves?"
Not in this day and age.

Re:Extradite == make an example of (2, Interesting)

nbannerman (974715) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671662)

As a Brit, I have to ask, really, does anyone in the US actually care about the special relationship? Because all it seems to be, as you quite rightly state, is the UK metaphorically 'bending over'.

Re:Extradite == make an example of (1)

vertinox (846076) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671866)

As a Brit, I have to ask, really, does anyone in the US actually care about the special relationship?

As an American, I have to tell you, really, if given the option I'd rather be tried in the UK and sentenced to jail in a UK prision rather than one over here.

"Defense" will be his "defence" (5, Funny)

Nice2Cats (557310) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671696)

I can't wait to see his American lawyer claim that he didn't understand what he was doing -- how was he to know that the defense computers were actually defence computers? How could he realize that his behavior was bad behaviour? After that, you can only hope that the court will table the claims...

What happened to nationality? (4, Insightful)

Kittenman (971447) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671700)

Bit of a worry really. McKinnon is a British subject, found guilty of a crime against nationals of a foreign country. Why is he being extradited rather than sentenced and imprisoned in the UK?

Another case is Richard Read - the "shoe bomber" from a few years back. He was a British subject (admittedly they didn't want him) and is held prisoner somewhere in the US (or you-know-where in Cuba).

Does holding a passport, or nationality mean nothing? No matter what your nationality when you do a crime against the US, they get to do what they want with you.

Re:What happened to nationality? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15671714)

Yep. Get used to it.

Re:What happened to nationality? (1)

Chmcginn (201645) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671806)

I'm no lawyer, but, computer crime, like wire & mail fraud, is considered to have 'taken place' at end where the numbers get shifted around. So it doesn't matter where you are, it's the computer you're hacking into that determines the laws you have to follow. Kinda sucks, but such is life.

Re:What happened to nationality? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15671812)

Sorry mate. the club is full.... no more space in these here prisions - go to the states!

Re:What happened to nationality? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15671826)

Technically McKinnon committed a crime in the US (as in on US soil), although the internet makes the distinction odd. The "shoe bomber" committed a crime on a US airplane bound for the US. Not sure what the jurisdiction is on an airplane, but as it was a both a US plane and he was apprehended in the US so it's hard to see why he wouldn't be tried in the US. Specifically he didn't commit the crime in Britain so that's out baring any British laws about how nationals act in other countries (either way the US would have their go at him, before or after Britain), France is the only other reasonable option as that's where the plane left from.

In other words: if you commit a crime in country X then you've committed a crime in country X. If you're no longer in country X, make sure your current country will not extradite you to country X.

That's part of why terrorists attack us. (1)

FatSean (18753) | more than 8 years ago | (#15672204)

The US throws its weight arround. Leans on other nations to get her way. It isn't right, and as an American citizen it disgusts me. Like how we lean on other nations to move their policies closer in alignment with our own.

Why do they do it? Fear and Greed. As the US economy dwindles, the greed will be less...and perhaps as other nations ramp up their offensive capabilities...fear will be less.

And cue the tools who will call me an idiot because these policies 'keep me safe'. No thanks...I think these policies are increasing my risks.

Perhaps effecting regime change through financing rebel groups in Afghanistan wasn't such a bright idea, eh? Do you think the ill-fated incursions into Panama might be part of why South America is so distrustful? The only reason Columbia did anything about cocaine was the tons of money shipped their way...

US out of everywhere damnit. Let us fix our own problems. If external troubles come to us, we will respond. This pre-emptive bullshit is not working.

Dont worry (1)

scuppy (929040) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671726)

He'll hack into the legal system and delete the extradition order.

Re:Dont worry (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15672171)

Hack? Haha, don't you mean scan for countless servers owned by the DOJ and look for anything running on default and see where that takes him? This guy is a moron but I don't think he should be extradicted and sentenced in the US, it seems perfectly fine to allow his country to sentence him with what they find fit. IMO the US likes to make an example out of everyone they can get their hands on and it's rather dumb.

Shame on the UK or any other country (1)

dindi (78034) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671879)

that gives their citizen away to an other country, whatever the charges are.

This man, however guilty, sick, or whatever his problem is, should be sentenced in the UK.
This is my personal viewpoint so if you do not agree, you are free to disagree....

You have no idea how the law works, do you? (1)

porkchop_d_clown (39923) | more than 8 years ago | (#15672051)

He didn't break any UK laws - so why would UK courts punish him?

Re:You have no idea how the law works, do you? (1)

jrldh2 (927029) | more than 8 years ago | (#15672183)

If thats the case then this is doubly outrageous. The UK should then have told the US to get lost. Or do you think that if you commit a crime in Germany, for example selling Swastikas via some online shop to German citizens in Germany, the US should send you to Germany for prosecution because you broke their law (while selling Swastikas is perfectly legal in the US)????

Free Kevin Mitnick (1)

agent (7471) | more than 8 years ago | (#15671880)

Opps, I mean Gary McKinnon.

Hahahahaha third world cunts (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15672223)

fuck the limeys
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