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Lotus Notes For Linux To Be Released By IBM

Hemos posted more than 8 years ago | from the follow-on-corporate dept.

219

gamigad writes "According to ZDNet, Lotus Notes 7.0.1 will be released for Linux. Availability is expected to be on July 24. It ain't gonna be a free lunch, tho" It's going to be based mainly on the Eclipse framework, and it does appear that you'll be able to swap a Linux version for a Windows or Mac version if you so choose.

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Can't be a bad thing (3, Insightful)

Neo-Rio-101 (700494) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690165)

One less reason to use Windows for those who need/want Lotus.

Re:Can't be a bad thing (4, Interesting)

pegr (46683) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690187)

I'm glad to see a native version, but Notes always worked very well under WINE for me. See what can happen when you write only to the published API?

Re:Can't be a bad thing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15690586)

The new version ain't native, though. From the summary, they mention:

It's going to be based mainly on the Eclipse framework

Eclipse [eclipse.org] is IBM's Java IDE. Java means you need a JVM. Eclipse requires Sun's JRE, which means x86 Linux only.

Plus, because it's "based on Eclipse" that means it'll use GTK+'s controls, but most likely with Windows' HCI. This means things like the default dialog button being on the wrong side (it's supposed to be on the right, Windows incorrectly places it on the left so Eclipse does too) and various other GUI issues as SWT, the GUI toolkit Eclipse uses, is optimized for Windows. It also means the Mac OS X "port" is going to be terrible, as SWT support for OS X is really lousy.

Java is notorius for being "write once, test everywhere" so this new "Linux" version can be expected to have some interesting Windows-style quirks. And be slllloooooow - first you have the Java speed issues, compounded with Eclipse's natural slowness. Java may be 90% as fast as native code, but Eclipse brings that down to maybe 50% as fast.

From what I hear about Notes, though, this may be about normal for Notes performance...

Re:Can't be a bad thing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15690693)

Eclipse requires Sun's JRE...
And this is utterly false. Eclipse runs just fine on GCJ/GNU Classpath.

Re:Can't be a bad thing (1)

Coldfusion97 (175932) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690698)

Apparently you're using an older version of Notes then. I've yet to hear of anyone that's gotten a GA version of Notes 7 to run under any version of Wine.

When I was running 6.5 with Wine it was very particular about the version; I had to use some crummy version (of Wine) from June 2004 or it just didn't work, which meant no bug fixes or patches. Within IBM there are countless Domino databases we're expected to use and not all of them worked properly with Notes under Wine so that was also an issue for those of us using Linux.

Re:Can't be a bad thing (1)

pegr (46683) | more than 8 years ago | (#15691105)

Apparently you're using an older version of Notes then. I've yet to hear of anyone that's gotten a GA version of Notes 7 to run under any version of Wine.
 
Yes, you are correct. The most recent version I used was 6.5, and that's been a few years...

Absolutely a bad thing! (2, Insightful)

Ada95 (183169) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690197)

I hate Notes. Its my absolute, all time, most hated application (for any OS). It has the most mega-goofy, non-intutive interface and requires gigabytes of RAM just to start itself.

Run from this, Linux, run very fast and very far or Notes will never let you run again. Aieeeeee!

Re:Can't be a bad thing (1, Interesting)

jpmorgan (517966) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690203)

Truly spoken by someone who has never used Notes. Is there no sanctuary left from this monstrosity?

Actually, it's a good thing, (5, Informative)

Jaqui (905797) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690212)

since a lot of Companies have refused to switch to Linux because of the perceived lack of software in this type of area.

I know of several IT Department heads for Fortune 500 Companies that have asked for software that matches MS Echange / Lotus Notes for Linux before they would concider switching to Linux desktops.

This is also the first step in IBM actually putting their product line behind their public stand of supporting open source operating systems, not just their money into open source projects.

The biggest drawback is the eclipse framework. Eclipse's java requires sun's jvm which conflicts with gjc. Open Office requires gjc in linux for 100% functionality, sun's jvm won't cut it.

Re:Actually, it's a good thing, (0, Redundant)

Ghandalfar (918924) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690316)

Why wouldn't you use StarOffice in corp. environment?

Re:Actually, it's a good thing, (1, Troll)

hacker (14635) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690328)

The biggest drawback is the eclipse framework. Eclipse's java requires sun's jvm which conflicts with gjc. Open Office requires gjc in linux for 100% functionality, sun's jvm won't cut it.
gcj has been building Eclipse for awhile now... you might try using that instead of polluting the system with Sun's JVM where it is no longer needed.

Re:Actually, it's a good thing, (2, Insightful)

GigsVT (208848) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690584)

I went into #java and got yelled at for having this "gcj" installed. They said it was total crap and nothing would work right with it.

At this point, fuck Java. Sick of dealing with the bullshit.

Different jvms do not have to conflict (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15690368)

You do realise you can have multiple jres installed? Just don't install them as the system default java. I would actually guess that Notes will come with its own copy of the jre which will not affect anything else at all.

Re:Actually, it's a good thing, (5, Informative)

Mechanik (104328) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690383)

Eclipse's java requires sun's jvm which conflicts with gjc. Open Office requires gjc in linux for 100% functionality, sun's jvm won't cut it.

You don't have to use Sun's JVM. According to the Eclipse 3.2 Project Plan [eclipse.org] , there are all kinds of other supported JVMs, e.g. IBM's, HP's, etc. Other VMs might work, they are just not officially supported and tested.

I know for a fact as well that the Red Hat folks have been successfully compiling Eclipse with GCJ also.

I'm not really sure why you claim that the JVM conflicts either. You can drop a JRE into eclipse/jre and that's what the launcher will use to the exclusion of anything else.


Mechanik

Re:Actually, it's a good thing, (1)

Marcus Green (34723) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690528)

Open Office requires gjc in linux for 100% functionality, sun's jvm won't cut it.

No it doesn't. Where did you get that idea from?

Re:Actually, it's a good thing, (1)

castle (6163) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690548)

I believe he got it from the crufty fud factory.

Re:Actually, it's a good thing, (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15690625)

The biggest drawback is the eclipse framework. Eclipse's java requires sun's jvm which conflicts with gjc. Open Office requires gjc in linux for 100% functionality, sun's jvm won't cut it.

Please mod this comment down, this is completely false. There is no conflict, and OpenOffice works fine with Sun's JVM (OpenOffice is made by Sun after all).

I've been using IBM's J9 JDK with Eclipse 3.2 (2, Informative)

FatSean (18753) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690632)

Other eclipse plugins which my work exploits requires that JDK and it's quite easy to set up. Eclipse even has facilities to configure multiple JDKs and to easily switch between them.

Re:Can't be a bad thing (-1, Troll)

iBod (534920) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690658)

Nobody actually 'needs' or 'wants' Lotus Notes - it's an abortion!

Windows user might need or want Exchange, but Notes - never!

There's Novell Groupwise too (2, Informative)

ihavenospine (541249) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690691)

Since version 6.5 (now it's at 7.0.1) Novell Gropwise runs natively on Linux clients and servers and IMHO is more refined than Lotus as groupware suite. Of course Lotus Notes is much more than a groupware suite, but I wonder how many companies use it as application framework or document database.

Re:Can't be a bad thing (1)

slayer17 (152559) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690883)

Totaly agree. I have to use notes at work. Put I currently use it with citrix. Can't wait to use it native. We start our liux migration from as400 this summer. Should be fun to beta notes for my office!

Screenshots (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15690169)

Re:Screenshots (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15690207)

this link is a picture of the next major version of notes, not the current one, that being 7.x....

Not free? (2, Informative)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690186)

From the summary:

It ain't gonna be a free lunch, tho

I don't this will be a blocking issue for the people who choose to deploy notes. I am very glad I don't have to use it any more.

Re:Not free? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15690277)

Let joy be unconfined!

I'm really looking forward to seeing yet another SWT-based application on Linux. I really want to watch my apps redraw themselves like a 486 running Windows 3.1. I'm being a little unfair here -- it's not SWT's fault. SWT uses GTK as a backend on Linux, and the last couple of GTk versions have been (quite incredibly) slower than ever. Nokia's engineers describe it as catastrophically slower and basically unusable on their Maemo platform (hence sticking with v2.6). GNOME users, unfortunately, are stuck with it. The thoughtful GNOME developers forced everyone onto v2.8+. So we've got machines that run like fucking slugs. Once you add on another layer on top (like SWT, or Mozilla/Firefox widgets), the result is pitiful.

GTK really is a piece of shit, and its maintainers have no fucking idea what they are doing. It's been, what, five years since GTK2.0 and the performance is getting worse. Say their names with shame [gtk.org] folks.

Too little, too late (3, Interesting)

cerberusss (660701) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690191)

This comes severely late, in my opinion. The Wine [winehq.com] and the CodeWeavers [codeweavers.com] people have put work into running Notes on Linux.

IMHO, it would've been better if IBM had put this investment into Wine so other applications had profited as well. A proper native compilation along with some polishing for the various desktops could've made this "achievement" years earlier. Think Google's Picasa [google.com] , which was nicely ported to Linux this way, and runs like a charm.

Re:Too little, too late (1)

Tim C (15259) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690218)

IMHO, it would've been better if IBM had put this investment into Wine so other applications had profited as well.

Better for us, yes, but for IBM? They're doing this to *sell* Notes, not out of the goodness of their hearts.

Re:Too little, too late (1)

cerberusss (660701) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690493)

They could still stell it, the Wine library is LGPL licensed.

Re:Too little, too late (2, Informative)

DrXym (126579) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690306)

WINE is a handy tool, but apps that run under it suck. They suck because use Windows conventions for file names, registry settings, paths, menu structure and look and feel. Even if you recompiled the app using winelib they would still suck. After a lot of effort you might be able to hack some of the Windows-ness out of it, but it would be a nightmare to maintain.

Re:Too little, too late (1)

cerberusss (660701) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690510)

After a lot of effort you might be able to hack some of the Windows-ness out of it, but it would be a nightmare to maintain.

Well, obviously they have already dealt with multi-platformness. You think that's a maintenance nightmare as well? Of course not. They probably did their best to isolate the platform-specific stuff and put the rest in separate libs.

Re:Too little, too late (2, Informative)

chaves (824310) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690763)

The support to running on Linux was obtained by migrating the client to Java, not by providing some mechanism for running the Windows version on Linux. The benefits of doing it are:

- it is not a (incomplete) hack like Wine
- shouldn't be too hard to have the client running on MacOSX, and all Unixes supported by the Eclipse platform (dependending on how much native code they have - I would suspect it not to be that much, as it goes against the decision of using Java + Eclipse).

No! Nooo! (3, Funny)

brettlbecker (596407) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690211)

Let me just be the first to say...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Okay, now I feel better.

B

Re:No! Nooo! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15690373)

ot:

can someone recommend a free alternative to windows media center?

thanks-

rob the knob

A more appropriate response would be... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15690570)

... Oh the HUMANITY!!!

Re:No! Nooo! (2, Insightful)

Otter (3800) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690651)

Given the spaghetti already under the hood of the Notes client (saving ("detaching") a single attachment and saving multiple attachments seem to go through different APIs, and open dialog boxes in two different toolkits), I wonder whether "based on the Eclipse open-source framework" will be an improvement or just an even worse nightmare.

Re:No! Nooo! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15691127)

Given the spaghetti already under the hood of the Notes client (saving ("detaching") a single attachment

Lotus has been releasing a trickle of notes tools etc, some based on java over the last several years that have been based on fresh code. One can hope, especially if they're supporting linux, that this is a new code base, as well.

oh noes!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15690213)

Is no one safe? :(

EEEeeeew! (2, Funny)

drewzhrodague (606182) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690216)

While I've been forced to use Notes on Windows in some of my gigs, I'd prefer to still use PINE, thank you very much. This isn't a piece of software I would *choose* to use, but something I might use rather than having a an additional machine just to run Windows and Notes. Note: I am a unix systems administrator.

Notes is well known for its 'unique' interface. too much repetition? Why does this post have too much repetition?

Re:EEEeeeew! (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15690281)

Forgive me in advance if I'm wrong but isn't pine just an email client? If you actually used Notes properly, you'd know that the mail part of it is just a small mini-app sitting on top of the (massive) groupware application.

Re:EEEeeeew! (1)

Massif (875445) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690537)

Yeah, my workplace uses Lotus Notes. It communicates with a lot of other applications that we use. It seems really bloated and runs dog slow, but according to Task Manager it only has about a 2MB footprint when it's idle and about 15MB when it's being used. That amount goes up when you have multiple tabs open. I've gotten used to the interface, but it is still one of the most unintuitive programs I've ever used.

Re:EEEeeeew! (-1, Troll)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690667)

That massive groupware application is why you hear all the screaming.

Notes is bad enough as a simple mail application. As soon as you force it to do ANYthing else, things quickly go downhill from there.

Even ccmail is better than Notes.

Re:EEEeeeew! (0, Troll)

IntlHarvester (11985) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690717)

The database stuff in Notes is mostly ignored nowdays (for good reason). As far as most users are concerned it's a mail/calandar program and that's it.

Blleee-e-e-at! (2, Funny)

Unski (821437) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690421)

While I've been forced to use PINE in some of my gigs, I'd prefer to still stick an RJ-45 plug on my tongue and manually read the data stream, thank you very much. PINE isn't a piece of software I would *choose* to use, but something I might use rather than having to constantly fill my mouth with cable. Note: I am a unix systems administrator.

the horror (-1, Troll)

earthpig (227603) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690221)

notes is the BPOBC (biggest piece of bloated crap) i've seen, and one of the few products i have used where i wanted to use a microsoft product instead (outlook). And now it is coming to linux. Oh joy! This is a step forward?

Re:the horror (1, Troll)

Himring (646324) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690276)

Concur. Anyone who has been forced (and hopefully few have volunteered) to administer lotes shudders at the thought of it. It was the worst adminning experience I've ever had....

That's because Notes isn't an email client (3, Insightful)

Colin Smith (2679) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690350)

It's really a development platform, more akin to MS Access on LSD.

Both have since been largely superceeded by web based apps.

 

Re:the horror (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690353)

notes is the BPOBC (biggest piece of bloated crap) i've seen,

I don't like it either but the alternative where I work now is SMB, email, word, visio and explorer. Notes has the right idea of delivering a unified environment for documents. Its a shame that the UI is pretty bad and poor reliability tends to give it a bad name.

OTH the OS it ran on (OS/2 then window98 back when I used it) gave it a really bad name. Perhaps deployments on Linux will be a genuine exchange killer.

Re:the horror (5, Insightful)

oh_my_080980980 (773867) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690500)


Good god man, if you are only using it for email then you are wasting space. Lotus Notes is for COLLABORATION! It allows you to create workflow apps which are truly quite impressive. Something I have not seen done with SharePoint or anything else. The security and encryption features are impressive. I'm not a huge fan of Lotus Notes but I can seen the advantages.

Bottom line it comes down to what you are trying to do.

Re:the horror (1)

earthpig (227603) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690645)

i have to use it for more that email because of work, and i actually am aware of some of this other 'features' besides email. i still find it to be totally unintuative and ikky. i would never use it myself for just an emil client. i might be crazy, but not insane.

Re:the horror (2, Insightful)

kpharmer (452893) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690951)

> It allows you to create workflow apps which are truly quite impressive.

and nightmares in terms of maintenance, scalability and data quality.

Honestly, every one of these things I run into is a catastrophe. I'm sure that they were better than the manual processes that they usually replace, but I wish that they could have been implemented in php & postgresql/db2/oracle/whatever.

ah, and did I mention usability? Notes has its own usability patterns - which are different from everything else. The client has millions of configuration parameters - that are distributed in an arbitrary fashion across dozens of overlapping menus.

Teamrooms? ick, we've been moving that stuff to wikis for years. Yep, even the documents - go into our wiki as attachments, and yes we can lock down the security.

It's too bad though - if the right people (just a few with a vision and real experience), the right processes (probably 2% of what they're actually buried under), and the right budget had all intersected about 5 years ago this could be a good product today. But now it's just a nightmare.

And sure, running on linux is good. But accessing my notes from Thunderbird would be *far* better.

FINALLY (-1, Troll)

netsavior (627338) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690240)

I have been looking for a way to crash Linux.

on topic (-1, Offtopic)

v1980z (917822) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690241)

in overlord russia profit will be here all week

IBM internal (5, Interesting)

seasunset (469481) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690245)

I am speculating here, but I think this might have big consequences inside ... IBM.

AFAIK, Notes was the single big piece missing to allow desktop transition to Linux inside IBM. I would bet that the more geeky IBM employees that were stuck on Windows because of Notes will change.

And maybe in the future the company will encorage this.

If you consider the sheer size of IBM its no small deal for Linux deskop usage...

Just speculating though... Is there any IBMer wanting to comment?

Re:IBM internal (1)

fcs-error (525339) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690289)

To some, it may be more than just speculation. With IBM moving more jobs to India, why should they pay MS for desktops. To me, this is more of an internal (with some exceptions) move. The internal use of Notes within IBM is huge. If they were to eliminate the need for Windows, imagine the money they would save.

Re:IBM internal (1)

ivan256 (17499) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690443)

Your comment makes complete sense even without the "With IBM moving more jobs to India" part, so I'm left to wonder what your actual point was.

Re:IBM internal (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690685)

It's pretty simple actually. Both practices indicate a fixation on cost cutting. That fixation may or may not be rational. However, many companies are so afflicted.

Re:IBM internal (3, Interesting)

LinuxHam (52232) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690318)

IBM, like most large organizations, has a standard desktop image running Windows. Actually, about 30 of them if you count the site-specific customizations. This has been called c4eb, or Client for eBusiness for several years. I first saw the Linux version in late 2001. Now, in what seems like a fork, a new standard Linux desktop, OpenClient 1.0 or something like that, has gone GA. I've run several iterations under VMware workstation to track its progress and functionality. I've used this Eclipse-based version of Notes. It is bears no resemblance to the full client you are used to. Problem is, my guest still swaps even after I give it 512MB, particularly after I loaded Notes. It is huge. But as the new Linux desktop continues to mature, I'm sure I can expect to come across more than one or two people a year running it as their primary desktop, as has been the case so far.

Hope this helps.

Re:IBM internal (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15690959)

The new version is much, much better. I tried and gave up on the code you describe. The new code is a little slow starting, but actually seems to be as good as running the old Notes under WINE.

Re:IBM internal (1)

PartPricer (975066) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690469)

As someone that has been using Notes for years (actually forced to use Notes for years), I have very mixed emotions about this development. On one hand, I like that there will finally be a Linux version of the Notes client. It gives me some options. However, on the other hand, it only prolongs the use of what has become a totally dysfunctional application within IBM.

I know that I will probably ruffle some feathers here, but the Notes client is a horrible mail client. The way most Notes databases/applications have been set up, they are cumbersome and ineffective. And finally, Notes has become a convenient crutch to lean on for rapid deployment. Most of the apps should not be based upon Notes. Yet, it is used over and over again since it does not require a new app to be pushed to the desktop.

Notes cannot be killed soon enough for me.

Re:IBM internal (1)

Strych9 (126433) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690612)

I'm ex-pat IBMer.

My internship was all Notes Development. The area I was in took the time to train me properly in Lotus notes, where the regular app dev people honestly didn't bother using Notes to anywhere near its potential, they spent more time designing pretty icons versus making an App that worked. Thereby I can completely see from the end user point of view where one would definately not like what they get. I also acknowledge that the email aspect of Lotus Notes needs to be reworked. It was never really designed for it. Its (notes) primary use is distributed documentation with distributed authorship and it does that well.

I just hope that some of the internals are trimmed down a little to reduce some of bloat that is found when people just don't take the time to code is properly. Rapid development is always nice, but like everything else faster output (read turn-around time from conception to product) isn't always (or ever) the best result.

I think a linux client however will be a great thing, and I hope they have taken a little time to polish it off, but that is wishful thinking.

My 2 cents.

Re:IBM internal (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15690635)

I would bet that the more geeky IBM employees that were stuck on Windows because of Notes will change.

Is there any IBMer wanting to comment?

Sure. The geeky IBM employees have been running Notes Under Linux for years now. There's an RPM that works beautifully (as long as wine is older than '04 or so) and I have coworkers who have it working on debian as well (though I think that's a bit more of a hassle to set up) Granted, official IBM support will be nice so I cheer on any formal releasing we do. Ideally the less geeky IBM employees will eventually start to follow the geeks' lead :-)

Why bother? (1)

ishpeck (160581) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690247)

Linux-based systems already have browsers that can run this [google.com] .

Re:Why bother? (1)

andrewman327 (635952) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690299)

They can also run Writely [slashdot.org] or for that matter they can connect to remote desktops on other computers and run full versions of Microsoft Office. People want native software because it is generally better than using a website.

Re:Why bother? (2, Insightful)

ArsenneLupin (766289) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690374)

Lotus Notes, not Lotus 1-2-3, you dimwit!

Like Notes (4, Insightful)

marcushe (895126) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690248)

I was a Lotus Notes administrator for Duke University - and even though I can see how at first glance the end user and IT admin would hate it - I don't I really like it actually. Great account management and features. It's all proprietary, but I think Notes is a great technology, and now runs on more platforms than Exchange.

Re:Like Notes (1)

fishfish (139505) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690391)

Yes - we've been running Notes since about when it came out. And I agree that the development environment/models are byzantine at times - it really was one of the early ways to employ community participation databases and discussions. I think the world of Wikis, Blogs, and discussion groups owe much to Notes (in terms of concepts and interface). Also - they have had a very good security model from the start - so running Notes as an e-mail client has allowed us to avoid many active-X borne problems that MS clients were prone to a few years back. The only bump in the road was the Internet - but they covered well on this by exposing Notes DBs through browser clients and also bolting on Java, XML support, etc.

Re:Like Notes (1)

IntlHarvester (11985) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690708)

Yeah -- Notes is increadibly System Admin friendly, so long as you have a large enough site to make it worthwhile.

Notes is a good example of "IBM listens to its customers", except it's customers are all IT Admins and Developers. That's why the UI philosophy is "Just make it good enough to get these users clammering for Outlook off my back."

The Shit Ages (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15690999)

Comparing Notes to Exchange is like comparing rhino shit to rabbit shit. Sure you can do a heck of a lot more with the rhino shit, but in the end it's all just shit.

But the companies that rely on groupware have no choice but to build with this shit because groupware technology is still living in the "Shit Ages". So they're building houses of shit, since wood, stone, brick, and steel have yet to be discovered.

So the moral of my disgusting analogy is that somebody really needs to put some development effort into moving groupware forward.

So we can stop relying on shit.

Late, but still interesting... (4, Interesting)

Christopher B. Brown (1267) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690275)

As much as it nicely rhymes with "Bloated Goats," for mobile users, the ability to stow your documents in an encrypted, replicated data store is worth rather a lot.

It represents a decent answer to the "oops, someone stole my laptop at the airport" problem in that it offers both a quick recovery process and some protection that the stealers should not get at your data.

I'll be very curious as to what happens with respect to document management, whether they'll be supporting OpenOffice.org, or if there's either some other strategy (SmartSuite for Linux???), or a lack of strategy...

Re:Late, but still interesting... (1)

oneandoneis2 (777721) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690515)

IBM have stated previously that they'll be building ODF support into Lotus Notes

Re:Late, but still interesting... (1)

brucmack (572780) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690682)

IBM to Adopt ODF for Lotus Notes [slashdot.org]

The next version of Notes is giong to be a complete redesign, and completely Java-based, if I understand things correctly. Besides including a version of OpenOffice, hopefully it'll help for interoperability with other apps as well.

Great News (2, Insightful)

berenixium (920883) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690295)

This is good news. The Microsoft front-line is getting a battering from all sides at the moment, while the Nix parties are getting stronger with more support by the day. And Lotus Notes can only reinforce that position against the Vole.

Re:Great News (0, Flamebait)

NineNine (235196) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690653)

OK, let me get this straight.... there's a "war" going on, and MS is "Evil", and Nix is "good", right? Dude, you need to get out and maybe see a movie or something.

NOoOOOoootes (1)

infosec_spaz (968690) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690317)

Yeah....Lotus Domino has run on Linux for a Loooooooong time, so all that was missing was the client. Great, now more people will be using it...job security for you Notes admins, I guess.

Great! Now lets wait for a Linux port of visicalc. (1, Flamebait)

paai (162289) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690369)

Lotus for Linux: at least ten years too late, and it is not even open source. We are supposed to go in convulsions over it?

Paai

hate it (0, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15690393)

The core concepts of Notes is great, however, the platform sucks.
Of LotusScript, @Functions and Java, only @Functions are fast and stable; but they can't be used in many cases (such as many web contexts).

If it wasn't for the many apps written in Notes that can't be ported easily, it would be a stone dead platform. IBM's successor IBM Workplace is an even worse pile of bull crap, because of that Notes will live on as long as the apps aren't rewritten for something better than LWP.

Hanover actually _looks_ a lot better than the old Notes, I guess there might come some improvements in the Notes user community's way. But considering how bad all IBM software is, I guess it will be worse than the previous version in everything but looks.

So my question is, except for the mainframes and the like (zSeries and iSerives), what does IBM produce that isn't complete crap? I have to work/develop for their software daily and Notes is the best platform they have, which says a lot.

it is free to move to Linux from Windows/Mac (3, Informative)

dominux (731134) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690401)

The Notes client isn't free or Free (although many applications that run on it are - see openntf.org) however if you have a client license for Windows or Mac then you can use it on Linux at no additional cost. In fact the licensing is per person, if you have a Windows machine, a Mac and a Linux box or three then you can use your Notes ID on all of them at once if you like. If you are using Notes already, then moving the desktop operating system to Linux is most certainly a free lunch.

People are missing the point (3, Interesting)

Mechanik (104328) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690424)

I'm more excited about moving Notes to the Eclipse framework rather than the aspect of Linux support. Not that Linux support isn't important, but moving to Eclipse is going to mean that the general usability of Notes is going to get better for everyone regardless of the platform that they're on.

Hell, as someone that has to use Notes, I'm salivating just at the prospect of the better view/window management that Eclipse provides. Eclipse is an extremely flexible and customizeable framework, and the lack of such customizeablity has been hurting the usability of Notes for a long time. "What do you mean the preview pane is fixed to be at the bottom of the screen? You mean I can't dock it at the right? ARRRRRGH!". Etc.

If the people on Notes start following the Eclipse Way (TM), things will only get better from here.

Mechanik

Re:People are missing the point (1)

Coldfusion97 (175932) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690801)

The short answer: you can't customize the views any more than you can with the Windows version.

The long answer: The Linux version of Notes is almost identical to the Windows version in terms of behavior -- it's just a native Notes plugin running inside of the eclipse framework. Pretty much everything inside the window frame is identical to Windows, so any supposed limitations of the Windows client are there in the eclipsified version.

True... but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15690926)

This is true. But the client is evolwing. See the next Notes version that allows you to have the preview pane to the right: http://www-142.ibm.com/software/sw-lotus/products/ product4.nsf/wdocs/hannover [ibm.com] If its a general improvment to the notes environment, or only to the mail application remains to be seen.

Re:People are missing the point (1)

Mechanik (104328) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690958)

The short answer: you can't customize the views any more than you can with the Windows version.

The long answer: The Linux version of Notes is almost identical to the Windows version in terms of behavior -- it's just a native Notes plugin running inside of the eclipse framework. Pretty much everything inside the window frame is identical to Windows, so any supposed limitations of the Windows client are there in the eclipsified version.

Largely you are right. They are not taking full advantage of the platform yet, and are still doing a lot of things the same way as always, but this is just the version version. Looking at the feature set from the EclipseCon session [eclipsecon.org] on it, it looks like they are starting to change things. They say as well that "By building on top of Eclipse RCP, Notes will move towards a new open and extensible programming model," so I think that there is a philosophical change going on in the Notes team as well, and that they're going to be embracing a more Eclipse-like philosophy going forward.

Here's hoping anyway.


Mechanik

Re:People are missing the point (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15691120)

If you're wondering about stuff like the position of a preview pane, that is all fully controllable today. Just fire up the Domino Designer and set it up to your heart's content.

Ed Brill, the guy quoted in the story is a blogger (2, Informative)

dominux (731134) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690446)

Quite a prolific blogger, and very good at it too, his blog is at http://www.edbrill.com/ [edbrill.com] and he talks about this announcement here http://www.edbrill.com/ebrill/edbrill.nsf/dx/notes -on-linux-announcement?opendocument&comments [edbrill.com]

This is fantastic! (4, Insightful)

JohnnyOpcode (929170) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690497)

Say what you will about Notes/Domino, but it is a very powerful platform than most realize. I look forward to the MS-Exchange vs. Notes/Domino wars. Thus Linux (and OS X) become more available platforms in many corporate settings which is good for everyone. And please remember, when you 'dis' Notes/Domino, you 'dis' some highly-intelligent programmers at Lotus/IBM who probably make you look like a script kiddie! I can't wait to see the evolution when Notes/Domino 8.0 arrives on the scene..I think MS is going to feel more heat from the competition.

Re:This is fantastic! (3, Informative)

oyenstikker (536040) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690786)

Nobody argues that it isn't a very powerful platform. Lotus simply suffers from an extremely poorly designed UI.

Re:This is fantastic! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15690896)

Lotus simply suffers from an extremely poorly designed UI. That depends on the way you look at it... Have you read Linux is Not Windows [oneandoneis2.org] ? There is a great part about UI design.

Resume (3, Funny)

Kinthelt (96845) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690498)

There's a reason I leave my experience with Lotus Notes off of my Resume.

Re:Resume (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15690987)

Just like there's a reason you're still unemployed?

Lotus Notes on Linux is unstable (3, Informative)

Servo (9177) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690620)

I work at a place that is in the process of migrating from a Windows platform to a Linux platform for their Lotus Notes 6.5.5 environment. The problem with Notes on Windows is that Windows is unstable. The problem with Notes on Linux is Notes becomes unstable. There are also all sorts of Gotcha's... like the way backups work. Administrative rights are funky too.

Re:Lotus Notes on Linux is unstable (1)

dominux (731134) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690681)

Wise man say: "The Notes on Linux that is 6.5.5 is not the true Notes on Linux"

Re:Lotus Notes on Linux is unstable (2, Insightful)

hey! (33014) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690683)

Administrative rights are funky too.

Well, Notes has for years been a product in need of a first class HCI makeover, but has got instead marketing driving makeovers that make things more confusing than they need to be.

However, at some point you have to trade off features for simplicity. And a lot of Notes administrative complexity comes from the ability to delegate administration in a secure fashion. You can get any two: simplicity, scalability, security. Notes can be configured to be scalable and secure, but it requires you to attend to certain details.

We had a recent article here on the FBI's password databases being cracked by a contractor. Systems in which users manage their passwords are intrinsically untrustworthy. The reason we continue to see them is that they are simple. When security and scalability are needed, then it is not longer being simple but simplistic.

But the Mac client sucked.. not sure about 7.x tho (3, Informative)

nighty5 (615965) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690622)

The mac client was resource hungry and sluggish.

Lets hope Notes 7 is an improvement over 6.x for any other platform than Windows...

Our company moved away from Domino and onto Exchange 12 months ago and it has allowed Mac enthusiasts to run Entourage 2004 which totally rocks under the Mac. The new service pack delivers native Exchange/AD/GAL in Entourage which was a welcome change.

I've been aware of this work for a long time now.. (4, Insightful)

CFD339 (795926) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690705)

..and have been on design review teams and other sorts of preview programs for the "Hannover" release which is the thing that generated the work itself. This isn't Hannover (which is Notes/Domino v8) but it stems from that work.

What most people don't know is that Notes was always built to be ported. It is MOSTLY portable code. Only the user interface calls themselves -- which have always been kept apart from the rest of the code -- is platform specific. This concept of a "Separation Layer" has been in the server and client since the earliest days of the product back in the early 90's. The UI port to run within the Eclipse framework (which IBM has been a huge part of) was much easier than anyone expected.

The best news -- for those who run the product anyway -- is that this isn't a "Port" or a "reworking" of the code. This is the same secure, stable, code. It's not just "compatible" its the actual code so there won't be problems of compatibility between versions running on different operating systems. The only potential issue will be that locally stored applications will be case sensitive on Linux but not on other platforms. Sloppy programming practices then will be highlighted if users run local applications that haven't been tested on a case sensitive operating system. This has long been true on the server side.

You may or may not like the product -- that has no value in this discussion. About 120 million people use it every day, and for those people one major barrier to moving toward a linux workstation has been lifted.

Re:I've been aware of this work for a long time no (1)

octaene (171858) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690957)

The points made in this post are quite valid. Lotus Notes is more stable than most appreciate. And like most things, the good 'ole 80/20 rule applies here in terms of who is using the majority of the features.

I'll also say this; the collective clamoring for a 'native' Notes client for Linux has finally risen to a loud enough point that this product release is imminent. I've been using Notes running on wine for about 2 years now, and this will blow that setup out of the water.

Also, I found an IBM PDF article [ibm.com] about the 7.0.2 code release, if anyone is interested.

Re:I've been aware of this work for a long time no (2, Informative)

oxfletch (108699) | more than 8 years ago | (#15691061)

> This is the same secure, stable, code.

Are you on fucking CRACK? Have you EVER actually run the product? It's the buggiest, most bloated, badly designed piece of shit I've ever had the misfortune to see.

Although... (1)

Odin_Tiger (585113) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690909)

While I can see this as one more reason not to be tied to Windows, TBH I'd rather tell my boss that no, Notes simply won't work on Linux, so in the process of migrating we will simply have to use something ... ANYTHING ... else. ;)

WHAAT? (1)

the computer guy nex (916959) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690922)

"One less reason to use Windows for those who need/want Lotus."

You expect organizations that STILL have not gotten rid of Notes to ditch Windows????

As a former Notes developer... (1)

mrjb (547783) | more than 8 years ago | (#15690952)

...I think this is more than six years late.

By now, the web has matured to such an extent that there really aren't many reasons anymore to keep using fat (Notes) clients, and currently I see more projects migrating away from Notes than towards it.

Also, over six years ago a Linux version was mentioned, and when it came out it was only the Domino server. And this time? Will IBM release both user-client and development-client, or will developers be left in the cold again?

That said, some of the aspects of Notes development are sheer genius (it is really easy to whip up a quick form-driven database). Other aspects plain suck (manually guarantee relational integrity/too slow).

Should be a boon... (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15691021)

since Linux users are to used to crappy user interfaces.

This is not a cause for jubilation (1)

oxfletch (108699) | more than 8 years ago | (#15691096)

All of you who are excited about this for some reason, let me reassure you that the beta testers I talked to who'd seen this were *screaming* in pain.

Just when you thought Notes couldn't *possibly* be any slower, buggier or more bloated, they did this to it. It's horrendous. Fortunately I've left IBM and won't have to deal with their crap any more, but I weep for the friends I left there.

I don't know what the hell that team is on, but they seem to be totally out of touch with reality, other human beings, and any semblence of an interface design team.
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