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Horde Paladins and Alliance Shaman in WoW Expansion

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the confused-little-dwarf dept.


Gamespot has the news that Blizzard will be allowing 'crossover' classes with the new races promised for the Burning Crusade expansion. The Paladin class, up until now an Alliance class, will be allowed for the Horde race of Blood Elves. Likewise, the Alliance Draenei will be able to choose the Horde Shaman class. From the article: "According to Blizzard, Horde paladins and Alliance shamans will have many of the same talents of their traditional counterparts, though they "will also enjoy some unique abilities to themselves, similar to the priest class' racial specialties." Since this new feature will fundamentally change the asymmetry between the game's two factions, it will presumably have a significant impact on the way the game is played, especially in competitive player-versus-player combat." It's also likely to somewhat balance the preference between the two factions. A pretty race for the Horde, and what is considered (by some) a very powerful class for the Alliance.

cancel ×


NOO! (5, Funny)

CharAznable (702598) | more than 7 years ago | (#15758480)

Speaking as a Tauren Shaman, I wouldn't want to face someone who has Windfury and Frostshock.

Re:NOO! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15758840)


Re:NOO! (1)

DurendalMac (736637) | more than 7 years ago | (#15758907)

What's even better is now the Horde can bubble/hearth like a motherfucker too!

Re:NOO! (1)

C0rinthian (770164) | more than 7 years ago | (#15760041)

Hot pally on pally action baby. BUBBLE WARS!

Re:NOO! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15758956)

Speaking as a human being, I wouldn't want to face the overwhelming body odor of anyone who would utter or understand your post.

Sweet (0, Troll)

konigstein (966024) | more than 7 years ago | (#15758510)

I might start playing this game again if the alliance get shamans, This move looks like it will very nicely balance out the tower of power that the Horde has enjoyed.

Re:Sweet (1)

TheSam (636870) | more than 7 years ago | (#15758575)

You obviously haven't played in anything past the level 30 pvp bracket. On established servers, Paladins pave the way for many raiding guilds to get Tier 1 and Tier 2 loot. No matter how much we all wish PVP in wow was about talent, its usually only about gear...

Re:Sweet (0)

KIFulgore (972701) | more than 7 years ago | (#15758744)

I always read comments like this thusly:

"You obviously ...blah blah blah blah... I'm an elitist prick."

Re:Sweet (1)

razor150 (984063) | more than 7 years ago | (#15758933)

That may be so, but Horde dominates most PvP.

Re:Sweet (1)

Zackarion (990247) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759415)

Once world/realm PvP hits, the WSG group I roll with will dominate everyone. 9 Tier 2 Hunters & Tier 2 Priest. We have yet to lose to any Horde PUG or Team on our server. Have a MA, 9 auto shots (approx. 2700 dmg at roughly 300dmg per autoshot, 1k crit), the target is dead. kktnxbai. GG. AV & AB will be interesting though. :)

Re:Sweet (1)

CountBrass (590228) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759627)

On Argent Dawn (Euro) this is certainly true, but it's down the fact the Horde are organised. They form groups before going into BGs. They make plans and people listen to the leader. On the alliance side they almost always join singly, often fail to join the group/raid even in the BG and never listen. The difference (I play both sides) is shocking and the result is that the horde regularly kick the alliance all around the BGs.

Re:Sweet (1)

ravenshrike (808508) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759738)

As far as I have seen, this has nothing to do with the actual classes, rather, for some reason horde players seem to be able to coordinate strategy much much better than most alliance pricks. I've seen plenty of pvp games where the alliance would out-kill the horde by far, but because the horde cooperated and went for the flag as a team, they still won.

Interesting (0, Troll)

Durrill (908003) | more than 7 years ago | (#15758538)

I look forward to seeing group combinations involving totems, auras and blessings. Now, the alliance can't whine about the supposedly overpowered Shaman class since both sides will have access to it.

Re:Interesting (1)

tnk1 (899206) | more than 7 years ago | (#15758601)

Yes, now every faction has the ability to whine about Shamans equally. This SO makes me want to play again.

Totems! Totems! Totems!

Re:Interesting (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15758657)

Just as horde won't be able to whine about buffs in 40 man PvE, while losing some of their PvP abilities.

Really, people are gonna find the grass isn't always greener.

I don't even play WoW (4, Insightful)

GundamFan (848341) | more than 7 years ago | (#15758584)

and I saw this comming... this is a sad day for creativity in gaming. Just making everyone identical is not a good way to balance a game. If WoW ever had a soul it has officaly lost it.

Re:I don't even play WoW (1)

ichigo 2.0 (900288) | more than 7 years ago | (#15758777)

You don't even play WoW? Doesn't that make your belief that the game is losing its soul unfounded?

Re:I don't even play WoW (3, Informative)

GundamFan (848341) | more than 7 years ago | (#15758864)

Perhaps... but then again I know enough people who strongly advocate the game to imply it at least had a soul at some point and heavy handed game balance changes with no respect for the established game world story or "fluff" as some call it is high on my list of ways MMOGs can lose there souls.

If the game still appeals to you feel free to play it... I will likely never touch it if this is how the developer choses to go about changing there game.

Your logic suggest WoW has more soul ... (1)

AHumbleOpinion (546848) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759001)

I know enough people who strongly advocate the game to imply it at least had a soul at some point and heavy handed game balance changes with no respect for the established game world story or "fluff" as some call it is high on my list of ways MMOGs can lose there souls.

It seems your followup is unfounded as well. ;) Since the alliance is gaining these talents through the introduction of *new* races the existing storyline is not being disrupted, existing races have not been altered. The storyline expands with the expansion. Matter of fact, using your definition of soul the game continues to demonstrate soul since one of new races, the Blood Elves, were in Warcraft III.

Re:Your logic suggest WoW has more soul ... (1)

GundamFan (848341) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759071)

Ahh yes but where they (Blood Elves) compatible with Holy magic? My point is only that they are shoehorning this change in to pasify the player base, all MMOs do this and it saddens me when it happens.

Re:Your logic suggest WoW has more soul ... (1)

MBGMorden (803437) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759164)

There is nothing to suggest that Blood Elves would be incompatible with ANY kind of magic. They crave magic. They are sustained by it, and they are driven mad by it. I woulndn't think a Blood Elven druid would even be out of the question, as they wouldn't hestitate to bend nature magic to their will.

Re:Your logic suggest WoW has more soul ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15759697)

Indeed i say thats quite true, while blood elves arent exactly "good" they certainly arent all evil. and besides, play campaign mode on wc3tft. the blood elves can build priests too.

Re:I don't even play WoW (4, Insightful)

RsG (809189) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759024)

Actually, as an ex-WoW player, I disagree.

Everybody could see this coming a mile off. The alliance whines that shamans are overpowered and the horde whines that paladins are as well. There is a clear case of "the grass is always greener" going on, and it's pervasive.

The easiest way to fix this is to give each side the so-called "overpowered" class that the other side gets, thereby completely eliminating the complaints that the developers are favouring one faction over the other.

It does make the two sides even more similar, but let's be honest, they were never that different to begin with. WoW hasn't had radically different factions since it was in beta; making the faction specific classes available to both sides at this late stage won't make the slightest bit of difference in terms of faction identity.

I should clarify that I played both sides, and both classes (among others). The claim that either side is over/under powered is complete bunk. About the only concern that I see as valid is the complaint that paladins are completely boring and passive to play ("Paladins are to gameplay as porn is to sex" sums that up nicely), and that doesn't impact their performance, so it isn't a balance issue.

Re:I don't even play WoW (1)

yourOneManArmy (986080) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759437)

I should clarify that I played both sides, and both classes (among others). The claim that either side is over/under powered is complete bunk. About the only concern that I see as valid is the complaint that paladins are completely boring and passive to play ("Paladins are to gameplay as porn is to sex" sums that up nicely), and that doesn't impact their performance, so it isn't a balance issue.

Realize that I don't really care either way, but you seem to ignore the fact that a more fun to play class that benefits all will be played more than a boring to play class that benefits all. Therefore, you have more shamans proportional to paladins in active duty. Simply judging by your argument towards indifference that you have inadvertently favored one side.

Re:I don't even play WoW (1)

snuf23 (182335) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759619)

"About the only concern that I see as valid is the complaint that paladins are completely boring and passive to play ("Paladins are to gameplay as porn is to sex" sums that up nicely), and that doesn't impact their performance, so it isn't a balance issue."

Nah they're exciting to play!

"Can I have BoW not BoK"

"BoK please"

"BoS please"

"BoW is going out"

"Where's my damn BoK!"

Re:I don't even play WoW (1)

technos (73414) | more than 7 years ago | (#15760345)

I am often the only paladin on raids. I feel your pain. But you just have to be a little more assertive.

"Can I have BoW not BoK"
"Only if you can convince the other four hunters."

"BoK please"
"Wait a couple minutes till I have to rebuff everyone."

"BoS please"
"No. Try waiting for assist call, you won't get eaten."

"BoW is going out"
"We're clearing trash still, and you're FM. Summon yourself some water and get over it."

"Where's my damn BoK!"
"Haven't cast it. Quit being pushy or heals will stop being cast too, Mister 'Likes-to-break-sheep'."

Re:I don't even play WoW (1)

Wornstrom (920197) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759688)

but paladins _are_ overpowered. :P

Re:I don't even play WoW (1)

Chuu (307073) | more than 7 years ago | (#15760021)

I play WoW a lot more then I care to admit, and am in a fairly high level raiding guild and keep up with the others.

At this level, it's pretty much a given that Paladins are overpowered. Let me try to explain:

1. PvE

Paladins completly skew almost every raid encounter to the game to the alliance because Blessings are ridicluous compared to totems. 10% Buff to every stat of every player. 30% reduction of threat. Savaltion's 30% to raid compared to Tranquil Air's 20% to party is no contest, ignoring the fact you must give up windfury to get it. Blessing of Kings just flat out makes things easier. An extra 1200 health to your MT, an extra 1K mana to your healers, and in addition it stacks with consumables.

Blessing of Wisdom also is just flat out Superior to Mana Spring Totem. Not only does it hit everyone (which is much more important then people think -- 40/5 on your DPS mana classes significantly increases raid DPS) but it's flat out more mana.

Now add the fact Paladin heals are more mana efficent and cause less threat. Also the fact horde have no equivalent to Blessing of Protection which is *HUGE* in Naxx.

Noone in their right mind argues that Shaman can touch Paladins in PvE.

PvP (Group):

Paladins are healers in plate that can make themselves and their friends invincible. I've played Battlegrounds on both sides and there is nothing more frustrating in the game then seeing a Paladin + Warrior combo coming at your team.

PvP (Individual):

This is the only place where Shaman have any advantage over Paladins.

WoW right now is a PvE game -- Matrix and DKs have take any incentive out of world PvP on PvP servers, and I have no idea what it's like on PvE but it can't be better. In PvE Paladins are king, and at this point that is pretty much undesputed by raiding guilds.

Re:I don't even play WoW (1)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | more than 7 years ago | (#15760320)

Blah blah blah.

I'm in an unusual position in that I have a lvl 60 shammy, and a lvl 60 pally, so I know both classes pretty damn well. Sure pallys have advantages in PvE...At lvl 60, if you're specced anything except holy or protection, they treat you like crap. Your forced to pure support. Buffs and heals, buffs and heals. And don't spout bubble crap at me, because the bubble is fricking worthless. It's good for one full heal, la de da, and the other bubble is laughable, pally drops that on his warrior friend, you toss a frost shock at him, and by the time the shock wears off, no more bubble.

Shammys aren't suited to pure support. They have a whole talent tree dedicated to spell DPS! And while they have some abilities that pallies can beat, they have some abilities that pallies can't touch. Tremor Totem, which is godlike, all the weapon enchant totems, poison and disease purge totems, grace of air, strength of earth, etc. Sure they're not as strong, but there are a hell of a lot more of them. Raiding on the Alliance side, you're forced to worship the dwarf priest for the fear ward...Horde don't even notice fear.

And pvp? Shammys dominate pvp, group and solo. Warlock/Priest comes running into your group and fears. What happens? Alliance scatter all over the place, get crushed. Horde? Scatter for about a second, then tremor kicks in and they crush the priest/lock. Purge is huge...shammy only. Grounding totem? Earth shock?

So pallys have a lot of raid utility. Shammys have a definite place in raids, and they are excellent in pvp...They're much better offtanks than pallies, even without plate. They both have their strengths and weaknesses, and, assuming you don't let people force you to spec to something annoying, they're both fun to play, and putting them together is going to be collossal. Think a Pally and a Warrior running at you is something to worry about? Think Pally + Shammy, and that'll teach you real fear. This is going to make for some interesting matchups, and a real shift in dynamics.

But people always bitch and moan. Waaaaaaaaaa, it's going to be different. Deal with it.

Re:I don't even play WoW (1)

RsG (809189) | more than 7 years ago | (#15760432)

You know, it's funny. I was just joking with someone that we should bet on who would post a response arguing game balance first - someone who thinks shamans are overpowered or someone who thinks paladins are. It's a good thing we didn't make a real bet, or I'd have lost; I'd assumed someone with an axe to grind about shamans would respond first.

I'll ask you what I've asked others in the past: If [insert class here] is overpowered, then why don't you play one? And if you do play one, why don't you tell all the people who are conviced the class is weak how it is you play? Because obviously they don't know how.

If you're so knowledgable about WoW class balance, then how come what is obvious to you isn't obvious to the developers? Shouldn't the people who created the game (and know it better than you or I) be able to tell which class needs to be upgraded/downgraded?

There are plenty of armchair experts arguing that either side is overpowered. I really don't take any of them seriously anymore.

I actually have played both classes. And I've heard both sides. I've seen the endgame, and got thoroughly bored with it. In that time, in my entire career as a WoW player, I never once saw any evidence to support the "X is overpowered" arguement. And my observation has been that it really is a matter of the grass being greener on the other side. It's never about what your side has; it's about what the other side has that you want.

Well, blizzard finally listened.

Re:I don't even play WoW (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15759067)


Kid, this is a product. They'll make it tap-dance like Jesus in an electric chair if it'll keep the hopelessly obese social rejects forking over $15/mo. Soul? As much soul as any other commercial enterprise, which is to say "zero".

Re:I don't even play WoW (2, Insightful)

PMuse (320639) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759481)

It's a well-known sign of the apocalypse. Every gaming system starts out with a few cool options (e.g. paladinhood) that are only available to certain characters. While the game system is new, everything is fine. Players pine for permission to create ever more potent combinations, but the game masters hold their ground and maintain order.

As the game system matures and options are added and tweaked, there is a progressive relaxation of the old restrictions. Eventually, the players get their way and anything is allowed. Shortly thereafter, the game system is swarmed under by a tsunami of half-fiendish self-healing incoporeal supersneaking uber-paladin arcanists.

The player base melts away to a new "low-powered" game system with "balance" and the cycle repeats. There's no use being upset about it; that's just the way the Wheel turns.

Re:I don't even play WoW (1)

GundamFan (848341) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759563)

Wow, that is perhaps the most insightful thing I have ever read about the MMOG industry. It is a shame when the game you are currently playing starts down that path (I have been lucky so far with CoH).

Re:I don't even play WoW (1)

jandrese (485) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759840)

I don't know, with CoH you can argue that the game designers remade the whole "low power" part of the game system when they introduced Enhancement Diversification.

For the 90% of Slashdotters who are wondering what I just said. In the old system you were able to boost the power/effectiveness of anything you did by 200% (three times as powerful). In the new system the cap was lowered to just under 100% (twice as powerful), which completely changed the dynamic of the game. The devs also cut the base effectiveness of most defense powers in half. This made previously invulnerable characters rather squishy and severely reduced the damage output of everybody. However, it also greatly reduced the disparity between the new and vetran players and made battles much more interesting since team wipes are far more common now. Overall the change was probably necessary (the high end game was just too easy otherwise), but the player base was not happy about it.

Re:I don't even play WoW (1)

KDR_11k (778916) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759714)

This is Warcraft we're talking about, asymmetrical sides wouldn't be true to the source material.

More difficult to create well-balanced raids (1)

metasecure (946666) | more than 7 years ago | (#15758600)

With 9 classes instead of 8, it's going to be more difficult to create a well-balanced raid group. I think eventually the paladin will simply phase out the shaman in end-game horde raids.

Re:More difficult to create well-balanced raids (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15760496)

It won't be more difficult, just different. People will adapt.

Pretty Race? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15758631)

What pretty race are the horde getting? All I've heard was blood elves, and World of Warcraft elves are anything but "pretty".

Re:Pretty Race? (1)

Alexandra Erenhart (880036) | more than 7 years ago | (#15758993)

I find them pretty much anorexic

The new alliance race, on the contrary, looks like it could kick ass.

Re:Pretty Race? (1)

glassjaw rocks (793596) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759496)

Taurens are pretty

Re:Pretty Race? (1)

snuf23 (182335) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759653)

Mmmmmmmmmmm. Donkey ears.

Re:Pretty Race? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15760227)

In these parts we refer to them as "Handles".

*sigh* (5, Insightful)

Krater76 (810350) | more than 7 years ago | (#15758636)

I frankly don't really care who gets what, I'm just disappointed in Blizzard.

I've played a Shaman to 60 and enjoyed it. It was the uniqueness of the class that made Horde stand out. The dungeon 1 shoulders are unmistakable, you know it's a shaman. In PvP a shaman is really fun to play due to the high survivability and DPS, although melee was nerfed somewhat in the last patch.

On the other hand, I found it unique to also fight against a class I couldn't group with. Paladins are a special challenge, especially against my rogue. Their gear is mostly gold, so you can really see them coming as well.

This just seems like a cop-out by a company that used to do innovation very well. They supposedly class-reviewed the shaman and for some reason gave them PvP buffs (especially with their offensive spell tree) when shaman were asking for more PvE utility. Horde in the end game is tougher than Alliance and the pally/shaman issue is the reason. So instead of coming up with a good idea or listening to the customers who had some great ideas to help shaman out, they just ignore the whole thing and give the Horde paladins, and Alliance shaman.

It'll take months after the expansion for either to make their presences truly felt but I guess Blizzard is just trying to scape a couple extra months of playtime out of an increasingly boring game.

Re:*sigh* (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15758837)

ENGLISH, motherfucker, do you SPEAK it?

Re:*sigh* (1)

xutopia (469129) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759068) [] is a place where plenty people disapointed in Blizzard have expressed their reasons why.

Astonished (2, Interesting)

umbrellasd (876984) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759126)

The thing that astonishes me the most (and I've played WoW off-and-on since the release day) is that it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for Blood Elves to be Paladins. These are the elves that broke with the night elf race due to their all consuming addiction to magic. Paladins draw their powers from divine sources and divine power is non-magical (if you don't play WoW or have familiarity with the backstory, this may not make sense). But anyway, it smacks of a slap-and-dash solution to an underlying game issue and it just makes no sense. I always really liked the fact that the Horde went to the elements for their power and the Alliance went to their belief in divinity. Now that distinction is worthless, and it was done in a way that contradicts the backstory of one of the races. I'm sure, they will come up with some hokey "explanation", but I don't even play a Paladin or a Shaman (any more), and I'm still looking at this change and going, "WTF? That makes no sense." I didn't really expect that my first reaction to a basic fact about the expansion would be that. I was more expecting, "Hey, neat." Blizzard caves to the eternal whining of the forumkiddies. How disappointing.

Re:Astonished (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15759213)

Maybe they ... worship magic itself as a divine entity? *bong noises*

Re:Astonished (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15759334)

Read the lore.

Basically, they kidnapped a Draeni pally and got the power from him.

Re:Astonished (1)

KDR_11k (778916) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759749)

If they wanted they could invent a "new" class that is just a pally with different names on everything and a different lore to it.

Official version: (1)

keyne9 (567528) | more than 7 years ago | (#15758644)

More information from Blizzard.

Approved (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15758660)

I, for one, welcome our new Space Shaman overlords.

Now Alliance Will Know What Horde Knows (2, Insightful)

pezpunk (205653) | more than 7 years ago | (#15758766)

Shamans are almost useless in end-game raids, when you can have paladins instead!

Shamans for the alliance will be a nice novelty, but ultimately a white elephant in dungeons. they will be quite a nice addition for burst damage in pvp though.

on the horde side, the raiding shamans will see their roles marginalized by new paladins.

Re:Now Alliance Will Know What Horde Knows (1)

daeg (828071) | more than 7 years ago | (#15758850)

Won't be useless if totems stack with auras...

Re:Now Alliance Will Know What Horde Knows (1)

fitten (521191) | more than 7 years ago | (#15758960)

Are you going to sacrifice the slots in the raid, though, for yet-another support class? It was already hard enough to get into a raid as a Shaman as there were only so many slots for support classes in it. Now there will be more competition because Paladins are unarguably the superior of the two classes on many raids. I had a 60 Shaman and it was hard to get into raids because there are only so many support slots available and you want to take better geared Shaman if one is available.

Re:Now Alliance Will Know What Horde Knows (1)

daeg (828071) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759002)

Well, it depends. I can see paladins taking away Shaman slots as well as priest. Going on numbers alone, two paladins and a shaman could make a few priests (and themselves) almost never go OOM and never draw agro (totem with blessing would give 36% agro reduction and something like 48mana/5 sec (assuming 1MT/5min during bosses). That's pretty powerful. Of course, we'll have to see what kind of content the expansion gives us. Maybe the content there will require both shaman and paladins. What pisses me off more is that until the paladins and shaman get to 60+, 40-man raids are probably going to get tons of wasted pally or shaman loot.

Re:Now Alliance Will Know What Horde Knows (1)

Wornstrom (920197) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759804)

by the time alliance shammies and horde pallies get to 60, most people will be well on their way to 70. Matter of fact I'd be willing to bet that most people will be more worried about getting their mains and existing alts to 70 before bothering with the new classes/races. BWL will be much easier to pwn with a 40 man group full of lvl 70's, and on to AQ40 and Naxx

Re:Now Alliance Will Know What Horde Knows (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15758976)

Considering they don't now, why would they in the future?

Hunters have a Nature Resist aura that doesn't stack with totems.

Re:Now Alliance Will Know What Horde Knows (1)

Kelz (611260) | more than 7 years ago | (#15758877)

Exactly. First thing I thought when I heard this news: "Death of PvE Shamans"

Re:Now Alliance Will Know What Horde Knows (2, Insightful)

Cadallin (863437) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759735)

I.e. Alliance will finally be able to camp just outside low-level towns and gank with impunity, just like horde does now. Fantastic gameplay there! I play alliance, and if you're on a server with even a SLIGHT imbalance towards horde, leveling becomes painful at about lvl 20, due to high level horde running around ganking lowbies. And yes, its usually shaman.

Re:Now Alliance Will Know What Horde Knows (1)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | more than 7 years ago | (#15760337)

Play Horde for a bit, and see if the same thign doesn't happen. I've played both, and both sides camp each other's lowbie towns. They ought to set up some freaking alliance vendors at the Crossroads, and at Taren Mill.

Re:Now Alliance Will Know What Horde Knows (1)

aafiske (243836) | more than 7 years ago | (#15760399)

"if you're on a server with even a SLIGHT imbalance, leveling becomes painful at about lvl 20, due to high level twinks running around ganking lowbies."

I fixed your typos for you. This is an inherent problem, not an alliance/horde issue. I have played both horde and alliance for hundreds of hours, on pvp and rp servers. There was a nice orc hunter once that just shooed me away, but otherwise...

In related news..... (2, Informative)

Goobergunch (876745) | more than 7 years ago | (#15758928)

WoW forums explode. Incidentally, Blizzard information page [] containing lore about the announcement.

Doesn't Fit.. (2, Insightful)

Renraku (518261) | more than 7 years ago | (#15758952)

A Horde Paladin? Paladins are against everything evil, bad, unholy, etc. Half the horde is considered evil bad and/or unholy. What's next? Undead paladins? Gnome shamans?

Re:Doesn't Fit.. (1)

Astarica (986098) | more than 7 years ago | (#15758973)

The Scarlet Crusade is considered as an enemy to both factions of the game and they contain of Paladins.

Re:Doesn't Fit.. (1)

Renraku (518261) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759049)

The Scarlet Crusade was turned against the Alliance just to make the game more balanced. I mean how would the Horde like it if ZG were green to them instead of killable?

Re:Doesn't Fit.. (4, Insightful)

lgw (121541) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759078)

Does the Horde consider themselves Evil, or is that just Alliance propaganda? I thought that one of the fundamentals of the Warcraft world was that both Horde and Alliance see themselves as the good guys, with only the undead being objectively evil. But then, I don't play WoW, so maybe the lore has changed?

Re:Doesn't Fit.. (2, Informative)

MBGMorden (803437) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759198)

Even the undead aren't necessarily all evil. There's even one undead (Forsaken) who's a member of the Argent Dawn (who if you don't play, is a group dedicated to fighting and pushing back the invasion of the Scourge/Burning Legion).

Re:Doesn't Fit.. (1)

qoa (704941) | more than 7 years ago | (#15760292)

I play horde.

Honestly, I view alliance as evil. Think about it. There are always more of them, they are always running around killing horde, and they are more organized on most servers. As far as I know, the forsaken are a splinter group of undead consisting of the people who just kind of got screwed into being undead.

Re:Doesn't Fit.. (2, Funny)

gclef (96311) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759217)

Gnome Druids. You know you want them. (Forms: Hedgehog, Goldfish, Weasel)

Re:Doesn't Fit.. (1)

PMuse (320639) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759361)

I see that you're one of those who feels that knights who are devoted adherents of their alignment and champions of their people should only gain special powers if that alignment happens to be lawful good.

Re:Doesn't Fit.. (1)

GJSchaller (198865) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759379)

RTFA. The Blood Elves captured a being of the Light and bent its energies to their will. They basically stole the abilities of a Paladin from its source. Both Thrall and Cairne objected, but conceded they were strategically useful.

That being said, I dislike this, a lot. On a playability level, I agree it's a cop-out on the part of Blizzard, removing any uniqueness from the game. On the lore side, it leaves a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach - how does one corrupt the ultimate source of goodness? I'd rather see a Forsaken earn the Paladin class through devotion and true faith being wielded against the Scourge - to me, that is much more plausible than bending the Light to unwilling ends. I have no issue with Alliance Shamans - after all, the Elements encompass all, why shouldn't they?

Re:Doesn't Fit.. (1)

InfiniteVoid (156157) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759424)

I had this same thought too, at first. But, having played an undead warlock who summons demons and shoots shadow bolts, I always found it odd that alliance had warlocks who would fight alongside paladins. If the alliance can bend shadowy forces to do their bidding, then why can't horde use holy magic? (They have holy priests, after all, no?)

Re:Doesn't Fit.. (1)

Astarica (986098) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759834)

Paladins get their power from 'the Light'. It is easily inferrable that the Light is a racial deity, similar to Elune or any of the random stuff Taurens worship. Just like no one that's not a NE gets anything from Elune, no one else besides humans and dwarves can get power from 'the Light'. If you will, the Paladin god is clearly racist. On the other hand, whatever entity that empowers priests/warlocks/etc are obviously not racist because everyone can get those powers fine. As for the lore justification, you can make up anything you want when you are alowed to say stuff like 'they didn't have this power but they stole it, so now they do'.

Re:Doesn't Fit.. (2, Interesting)

GJSchaller (198865) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759984)

"As for the lore justification, you can make up anything you want when you are alowed to say stuff like 'they didn't have this power but they stole it, so now they do'."

Yes, but that doesn't mean it's a good product. One of the things that makes a story, mythology, or saga so good is the consistency of it. Things don't happen "just because" - it ruins the credibility of it, and makes it less believable, and thus less enjoyable. Granted, large half-bovine humanoids and sexy purple-skinned elves don't exist in real life, but the consistency of their background in the Warcraft universe makes them more believable, than, say, Plan 9 from Outer Space.

The reaction players are having is that the foundation that has been built up, and is very cool and enjoyable, and is even the hallmark of Blizzard's excellence, has been yanked out from under the player base like the hall rug, leaving us going "WTF, mate?". They put enough detail into the game that the ruins of Loaderon in WoW are an exact model of the castle you see Arthas walk into in the WC3 cinematic sequence, and you even hear sound clips from his grisly deed there - it's very cool to see that and say, "Wow, I remember this from before, it's exactly the same... I feel like I'm seeing history!". All that attention to detail has just been crapped on, and is now worthless because the values they are based on have been proven unstable, and subject to change at Blizzard's whim.

I wouldn't have minded if the story was more plausible, but the current explanation they have given has gone too far, and stretched my willingness to suspend disbelief past the breaking point. It's like Lucas changing Star Wars. Yes, it's his story and he can change it if he wants to. The moment he does, however, the majority of his viewers feel he made a change for the worse, and his story loses credibility because it changed.

Re:Doesn't Fit.. (1)

eboot (697478) | more than 7 years ago | (#15760440)

Gnomes can't be priests or paladins. Is there something inherently unholy about being small?

No: a non-undead horde paladin doesn't fit.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15760445)

A horde Paladin isn't strange. Actually, it's been done.

I don't play WoW, but do know WC3. WoW is derived from the story in WC3.

Basically, Death Knight comes pretty close to a Paladin. Consider the WC3 abilities:
  • Death Coil is equivalent to Holy Light.
  • Death Pact heals the DK while Divine Shield only renders the Paladin immune to attack.
  • Unholy Aura heals and speeds up friendly units while Devotion Aura only adds protection.
  • Animate Dead is similar to Ressurection, but the effect is only temporary.
Funny how the Death Knight heals a lot more than the Paladin... Anyway, I would've expected WoW to implement horde Paladins as undead Death Knights. The story even goes back to WC2! Doing an exact copy (and giving it to any race OTHER than undead) is just uncreative and ignoring the story they so dearly love.

Anyway, how much simpler can this be? A Death Knight is a fallen Paladin. Instant horde Paladin!

Official justification (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15758965)

From Eyonix, a Blizzard employee:

"Something we have always held to as a core design philosophy is developing classes which are distinct from each other. This means developing a class with it's own abilities that clearly separate it from other classes in terms of how the class plays and operates, both for the player and from a design stand-point.

Early on in the inception of this game, it was a hot debate as to whether factions should have a specific class, which they alone have access to. Some wanted all classes to be distinct from each other, but accessible by all. Others thought that more flavor could be generated by keeping a class unique to a faction. Obviously, if you have one side with a unique class, you should probably give the other faction a unique class as well. Thus, Shaman and Paladins became those unique classes.

However, by linking them in a relationship as unique counter-points, options are closed for our main design goal, which is to keep classes distinct. We want factions to be balanced, but don't want to cut and paste abilities from one to the other and homogenize the classes. If we went that road, there would be little difference or need for a distinct class. We want classes to be different in more than just name-only or superficial appearances.

So, in our desire to keep the classes distinct and open up new possibilities for development of each class, shaman and paladins shall now be a playable class for both factions. This decision comes at a time when we have an opportunity to blend this decision into future development. Namely, with the new races in the upcoming expansion. Prior to the new races, the Paladin and Shaman lent themselves easily to their own factions and not that well to the opposite faction (Tauren Paladin? Gnome Shaman?) With the advent of the two additional races, the choice was made more clear in game design and lore.

In terms of game design, one of the options it opens up is for specific classes in dungeon encounters. We already have several encounters that highlight the abilities of a single class or make use of a classes specific abilities. Shaman and Paladins in the previous design could not participate in such encounters. If killing a creature required a Shaman, the Alliance could never beat the encounter and vice versa. This change allows the two classes to bring their own abilities into a situation which may highlight their class as an integral part of the encounter."

This is actually one of the few official responses from Blizz that I see as legit. Hopefully they can give the paladin and the shaman some really cool and distinct new abilities in the expansion.

Bid sad to see (1)

cyber-vandal (148830) | more than 7 years ago | (#15758977)

"How to make money from WoW" ads. Real money item and gold buyers don't add anything to a game (except very easily beaten high levels :P).

A copout. (2, Insightful)

Halloran (182820) | more than 7 years ago | (#15758985)

This isn't to "expand play opportunities across factions", its to ease the burden on the designers of having to constantly tweak existing content for two separate play dynamics, not to mention this constant cry by the player-base to balance the Paladin against the Shaman.

The ugliness will begin when the loot tables for both sets are turned on, and guilds that do MC/BWL content start seeing drops wasted by a month or more of Paladin loot for the Horde, or Shaman loot for the Alliance, before the classes are of the appropriate level to raid.

Re:A copout. (1)

DarkBlackFox (643814) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759447)

I'd tend to think of it the opposite way. As it stands, and as someone else posted above from Eyonix, there are certain encounters in the game that require certain class abilities. There are some encounters that are made easier by having Shamans or Paladins, but rarely can both fill the same role. It's been said countless times that Paladins are a huge advantage in PvE, for the number of beneficial abilities they bring to the table, as plate wearing healers with a number of auras and dispel abilities. Shaman on the other hand, can't wear plate, don't have as strong healing abilities, and "aura" effects are provided by totems, which in recent patches are more frequently targeted by hostile mobs, and with the 10ish HP they have, are frequently destroyed.

The encounters Blizzard has come up with to date needed to be sufficiently simple such that both factions can accomplish whatever the goal is without the unique abilities of the opposite faction specific class. If both sides get the same classes (if not with the exact same abilities, at least similar), it opens the door for Blizzard to design objectives without worrying about whether a Paladin can slow mobs down (via earthbind totems), or a Shaman can shield/bubble if he pulls healing aggro, or any number of unique abilities.

I can't imagine the number of times the developers come up with a cool scenario to kill a boss, only to be met with "oh, but Shamans/Paladins can't do that, so the Horde/Alliance won't be able to do this."

Re:A copout. (1)

aafiske (243836) | more than 7 years ago | (#15760388)

In my opinion, the unfortunate thing is the laying down of a particular sequence of tactics to win a fight in the first place. This isn't a personal attack because I know you're not responsible for it ;) But really, maybe the developers should have looked more at making encounters unpredicatable and doable with a variety of tactics than the One True Way.

What will the future think? (1)

siberian (14177) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759045)

In a thousand years it will be interesting to see what Digital Archealogists make of all of these postings. Most likely the fundmentalists be searching for the remains of one of these unique cross-over classes and arguing against the 'imaginists' who believe that all of this was just a highly ritualized social interaction.

That seals it (0, Flamebait)

stlhawkeye (868951) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759069)

I'm sooooo glad I got out of WoW. As is usually the case with these games, the first year or so is the "glory era," after which everything that made the game fun is slowly eroded away. I went through this with EQ, DAoC, and now WoW. Even the stupid bugs and stuff didn't bother me. It was new and different and fun to explore, but the longer the game marches on, the more insane content and bad ideas find their way into the game. Cheerio, World of Warcraft.

Re:So, what finally did it? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15759176)

Right now there is a big issue with the newly implemented "Global Looking For Group" (LFG) channel which has basically turned LFG from a useful tool into the worst general chat channel to rival Elwynn/Barrens chat. This factor alone has got me to drastically cut my playing down.

What was it that finally got to you?

This sucks (1)

Mustang Matt (133426) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759074)

I hate to add to all the QQ, but WoW just became a little more boring. They should be adding two more classes unique to each faction rather than merge them together.

lame (1)

Intangion (816356) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759178)

this is about the stupidest idea ive heard

blood evles as paladins?

Surprise, surprise. More stuff for the farmers. (1)

Lord of Hyphens (975895) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759239)

Ex-WoW player here. Can't say I'm surprised. Nor can I say that it'll end ANY whining. Heck, it'll give people new causes to complain.
Now the Alliance people can complain that the Horde pallies are overpowered, and the Horde people can complain that the Alliance shamans are overpowered. And thus, we have balance. Until the "nerfbats" come out (which everyone but the warriors really bitch about... because the warriors can always find better gear).

The primary 'good' thing I can see coming out of this is that Horde warriors will (eventually) have competition for their platemail drops (because there will always be idiot paladins on both sides who want the warrior armor).
And if people keep getting PoS loot (shaman/pallie when there aren't any), might as well shard it all. Really sucks for the people who've been raiding for 3-5 hours though.

Then again, I dropped WoW when I decided that I was tired of dungeon/PvP grinding/farming. Because that's all it is--one big farmfest. You work your ass off for the 'high end' gear, which takes multiple hours to achieve (at which point you're just sick of the dungeons), then you go over and do the PvP farming for rank/rep (after which you're also sick of all of the battlegrounds). Little wonder why people are leaving. (I now play EVE Online)

Whine, bitch, moan, sniffle (3, Insightful)

The Living Fractal (162153) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759250)

I play WoW. Not a lot, like I used to, but I still play. I intend to get the expansion and I think I will enjoy it, even though I am a casual player these days. I'm even considering getting another account so I can dual box. It makes solo'n a lot more fun and the money is immaterial to me. I've played since beta so I have a pretty good knowledge base of the game (been in a hardcore raiding guild for a while now, one which is consistently in competition for furthest advanced on our server, Windrunner). I was the second person on my server to hit level 60 in my class (Warlock).

All that said, I think people who are whining that both Horde and Alliance will be basically the same now (in endgame) are making assumptions.

First, the Horde Paladin will not be identical to the Alliance Paladin. The same goes for the Shaman on each side. The new racial abilities will see to it that they are different in a meaningful way. If there's one thing I know about racials in WoW, they ARE relevant. Take Perception for humans, WotF for Undead, and Escape Artist for gnomes as just three examples of how racials are useful. I promise that Blizzard will make the new racials quite useful as well. And on top of that there will be specific skills, like the Priest class has, which are unique to the new cross-overs. For example, undead horde priests have Devouring Plague, which is a pretty good Drain Over Time. Nobody else has that.

Well, ok then. So what about the problem with "evil" paladins? Uhm, what? Who said the Horde was really, inherently evil? Show me somewhere in the WoW Lore that says Horde are 'evil'. Tell me why the Argent Dawn would ally with Horde if they were? Just because they are at war with the Alliance makes them evil? I don't think so. So the Horde sees things differently than the Alliance, and so they clash... Take any number of real life examples and you see that two groups can be at war with each other and either none or both might be considered "evil". Sometimes it's very difficult in a war to see which side is right and which wrong.

I wouldn't mind it, however, if the Horde Paladin, being Blood Elf specific, was given an extra word in the name, such as Crimson Paladin... But that's beside the point.

From personal experience I have found that the people who tend to leave WoW are the ones who can't play along with others. They can't join a guild or don't want to because they just don't have a very agreeable personality. So they wind up playing alone. And they wind up watching as everyone else progresses and has a good time while they are still wearing the same old crappy blues, or whatever. Well, like I said, whine, bitch moan and sniffle. If you can't play well with others, WoW isn't for you.


Re:Whine, bitch, moan, sniffle (1)

Tridus (79566) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759461)

Horde aren't evil, hmm?

So you missed how the Blood Elves got their newfound Paladin powers by capturing and *draining* them from a Holy being?

Or about the Forsaken doing experiements on prisoners, killing sleeping Druids in barrow dens, killing people in Southshore to get innocent blood for experiements, and the whole attempt to create a new plague to destroy the living and make them all Undead? ... Yeah, no evil there at all.

Re:Whine, bitch, moan, sniffle (1)

qoa (704941) | more than 7 years ago | (#15760377)

If you read the quest, they are trying to make a plague to wipe out the humans and undead. Because both races are attacking them.
Arthas's numbers are overwhelming. But with a New Plague we could eradicate both the Scourge Army and the Human infestation once and for all.

Re:Whine, bitch, moan, sniffle (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15759569)

Lets not forget that in W3 it was a human that brought ruin the world.

As a leader of a horde raiding guild on a server where the alliance vastly outnumbers us, i look forward to trivialized Razorgore encounters.

Re:Whine, bitch, moan, sniffle (2, Informative)

snuf23 (182335) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759780)

"From personal experience I have found that the people who tend to leave WoW are the ones who can't play along with others."

That's such a hilarious generalization. You know some people leave because they get bored of it. Or don't care for the repetitive nature of the end game.
I myself just got bored with it and I was a high up guild officer who played nicely with others. It was a bit hard to walk away from the social side of it, but in the end I wasn't enjoying myself much so I left. Saying that people who quit playing are anti-social pricks is just stupid.

More of the same (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15759273)

Blizzard always screws up expansions. Starcraft was okay, then Brood War added a bunch of units and screwed up the balance. Diablo was okay, then the expansion (don't remember the name) came along and screwed up the balance. Blizzard makes great games with okay balance from the get go, but always ends up releasing an expansion that screws up the balance. So this announcement is more like par for the course.

Re:More of the same (1)

basscomm (122302) | more than 7 years ago | (#15760455)

Blizzard didn't make Hellfire, Sierra did [] .

Dear Blizzard (1)

nephillim (980798) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759465)

I hate to be the one who has to tell you this, but people are still going to whine about the game being improperly balanced or their character class being underpowered. as soon as somebody in WOW loses a dual/pvp combat it must have been because their class is unbalanced.

There are people out there that will complain that their mage can not win a sword fight with a paladin.
That is the nature of a MMO... people will complain.
you can either do what SOE did and continually change the game listening to the complainers, slowly making the people who liked the game as it initially was quit (and you will eventually be left with a GREAT warcraft-starwars galaxies clone),
OR you could take a stand and tell the people if they dont like to get beaten by paladins, make a paladin, and when you dont like getting beaten by rogues, make a rogue. If you still cant deal with it point them at the box and say it is rated for teens and up, and suggest they go play some bob the builder.

Explain... (1)

HaloZero (610207) | more than 7 years ago | (#15759950)

Re:Explain... (1)

santiago (42242) | more than 7 years ago | (#15760166)

1. That screenshot is several months old. Things can change for unreleased products that are still in development.
2. Blizzard has not said that Draenei don't have the option of being paladins in addition to being shamans, only that they do have the option of being shamans.

Re:Explain... (1)

hickory-smoked (969938) | more than 7 years ago | (#15760280)

It is. When the Draeni were first announced, Paladin was listed as one of their available classes.

Infact, nothing in this announcement suggests that they won't have access to both classes.

Why this is good for Raids (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15760024)

A post on the WoW [] Forums:

First, there is currently a serious PVE imbalance between the Horde and Alliance. Conventional wisdom held that the survivability of paladins and their raid-wide buffs were balanced by superior Horde DPS. This has been proven false. The Horde does not do more DPS.

The statistical superiority of Blessing of Kings, the superior mana regeneration of Blessing of Wisdom and Judgment of Wisdom, not to mention the increased 40% DPS potential of Blessing of Salvation* makes the Alliance superior in a PVE setting in almost every way to the Horde. Second, don't even mention PVP because it is irrelevant. The factions are balanced in PVP and in no way is the current state of PVP broken in massive favor of one side or the other like it is in PVE.

When designers plan out encounters, be it in a dungeon or raid environment, they have to consider what each class will be doing in that fight. Some fights make exclusive use of a particular class ability, such as priest mind control for Instructor Razuvious, or hunter Tranq Shot for Flamegor. Without these abilities, you cannot beat the encounter. They are designed this way on purpose. With a difference in the factions, you cannot design a fight around paladins or shamans because of this fundamental difference. From a design perspective, you have effectively marginalized both classes. There is currently not a single fight in the game that requires a paladin or shaman.

Furthermore, the concept that Alliance should have more survivability whereas Horde should have more damage limits the potential for timed encounters. Take Patchwerk, for example. You have 7 minutes to do roughly 4 million damage before he enrages and you lose. Most Alliance guilds are killing him in about 5:30-6:00 whereas Horde guilds are coming in at just under 7 minutes. Do you see the problem here? Even if Alliance guilds actually did less damage than the Horde, (which they don't), you couldn't design encounters like that without screwing one side or eliminating the whole concept of a burn-or-die fight. Equalizing the factions improves the PVE game.

When you design fights that do not require specific mechanics, you eliminate the potential for creative, new encounters. By allowing both factions to have all classes, the designers can create more innovative, class-dependent encounters that do not marginalize any one class. As a raid leader, I'm very excited about this change for two reasons:

1) Encounters will be more fun and creative. 2) The versatility this change offers is tremendous. My current plan for a standard operating procedure will be something like:

3 druids 3 shamans 4 paladins 5 priests +- depending on what we need for an encounter

Speculating that this will somehow break the game or eliminate the need for shamans is asinine. Adding another 10 levels to the game automatically trivializes old content. If you want to see how this is true, go to BRD and let a level 52 mob cast on you. See how many times you resist. At level 70, a level 63 mob can no longer land crushing blows. This makes current fights like the Twin Emperors or Nefarian trivial. Players that aren't currently able to see this content will be able to PUG it with 15-25 people at level 70. The point is, we don't even know what abilities and changes will occur to classes in the expansion. Shamans could get bloodlust, which would make the best paladin buff of today pale by comparison. We just don't know, so speculating about how shamans will be worthless is stupid.

Now, for the people whining about how this is a cop-out decision, or uncreative, the developers have been debating this since alpha. After a year and a half, they realized how drastically distinct classes broke PVE. For those complaining that they should "fix" shamans, here is why you are wrong:

Raid-wide "greater totems" are a bad idea because the core design behind shamans is that group make-up should be crucial to their functionality. Placing them with casters should offer distinctly different benefits than placing them with melee. And they do, to an extent. If you are not a raid leader, you may not realize just how important group composition is on raids. The difference between haphazardly formed groups and carefully planned groups is staggering. With shamans, I can refine group placement even more to achieve a greater number of beneficial combinations. (Hi2U, rogues with might, kings, salv, and windfury!)

Giving paladins raid-wide buffs was an issue of convenience and playability that did not mesh as well with the design philosophy of shamans. The results, however, were heavily imbalanced in favor of the Alliance. This is why they are being equalized. There is elegant solution to the shaman class as we know it without completely scrapping them and starting over. Again, because of raid design issues, giving both classes to both factions is a better answer than simply redesigning shamans.

So, before you post your whining complaints screaming about how this is the worst change ever, think about this decision from a design standpoint and consider the facts involved. Designers ignore whining, but they listen to facts. Evidence: the protest against the recent planned Windfury nerf. When it was mathematically demonstrated how badly this would affect overall Horde DPS and threat generation, it was cancelled.

* If you are wondering where this 40% number came from, there is a 10% margin of threat that melee DPS can approach before stealing aggro from the tank. In other words, you can actually have more threat built up than the tank, as long as you stay within 10% of the current target's total threat and not pull aggro. Ranged have to stay within 30% of the current target's threat. With Salvation, this makes the margin even bigger. It effectively allows DPS classes to do more damage and generate less threat before pulling aggro off the tank. Combined with the scaling benefits of BoK and the hugeness of BoM, Alliance rogues can do 40% more DPS than Horde rogues without pulling aggro.

The Paladin Song... (2, Funny)

MaineCoon (12585) | more than 7 years ago | (#15760241)

*tunes musical instrument* To the tune of "I'm a little teapot"

I'm a little paladin, short and stout! Here is my hammer, and my free mount!
When I get in trouble, hear me shout! Just throw up my shield, and hearthstone out!

Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week...
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