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OpenDarwin Project Shutting Down

ScuttleMonkey posted more than 7 years ago | from the hard-to-hit-a-moving-target dept.

470

niabok writes "According to a message sent by Rob Braun to the OpenDarwin mailing lists, the OpenDarwin project will be shutting down, saying that 'OpenDarwin has failed to achieve its goals in 4 years of operation, and moves further from achieving these goals as time goes on.' The project's servers will remain online long enough to allow developers to move their various projects elsewhere."

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470 comments

Obligatory (3, Funny)

patio11 (857072) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781504)

I guess they needed more intelligent design.

Netcraft confirms it (1)

pchan- (118053) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781807)

OpenDarwin is dying. Another crippling bombshell hit the beleaguered OpenDarwin community, dot dot dot

Listen, it's been over twenty minutes since this story was posted, and I haven't seen a Netcraft confirmation post yet. How do I know it's really dying? C'mon, people, get on the ball.

GNAA (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15781509)

1st post

Re:GNAA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15781558)

you loose.

At least there'll be some profit (4, Interesting)

dada21 (163177) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781515)

With a PageRank of 8 and an age of 4 years, that domain will sell to some SEO company very VERY fast. I wonder what they'll get for it.

THANKS FOR THAT SHIT NUGGET OF INSIGHT FAGFAG21 (1, Troll)

CmdrTaco (troll) (578383) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781686)

Shouldn't you be out peddling your new open source band, starting several neighborhood commitees, barbequeing your lunch, syncing your pda on a stolen wifi connection and saving the world or something?

Re:At least there'll be some profit (1)

fm6 (162816) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781764)

It's take more than a good pagerank to make a name valuable. The name itself has to mean something. There are porn folks who'll buy a popular name just to grab they extra hits, but they're not going to pay very much for it.

Re:At least there'll be some profit (2, Funny)

Megane (129182) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781803)

It's take more than a good pagerank to make a name valuable. The name itself has to mean something. There are porn folks who'll buy a popular name just to grab they extra hits, but they're not going to pay very much for it.

Then I guess they should've named their project "Open Darwina". Oh yeah, open wide for me baby...

Quite Frankly.... (4, Funny)

Cherita Chen (936355) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781518)

Quite Frankly, I'm not surprised... It is well known that the OpenID project (Open Intelligent Design) is far more promising. For those who don't know, there is now a beta version dubbed "Kansas" slated to be released around Christmas.

Stay tuned!

That was the best slashdot gag in a while... (1)

iendedi (687301) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781658)

I guess I am just dense, but I actually googled around for a bit before realizing that I had been had.

I tip my hat to you on that one, even though it should have been obvious, ya got me....

Re:Quite Frankly.... (4, Funny)

BitwizeGHC (145393) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781714)

Actually I think they'll be both trumped by the project affiliated with the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Of course in some circles he is venerated as the Buoyant Spaghetti Deity; hence, OpenBSD [openbsd.org].

Re:Quite Frankly.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15781795)

I am aware of the OpenFSM project. I have been following bugtraq and have noticed that quite a few of the young men and women working on this endeavor are just not capable of handling the complex multi-threaded, multi-dimensional aspects of modeling such an entity. Remember what his highness once said, "Draw not an image of heaven nor of earth - nor anything above or below it, nor of his great noodly appendage, for this is surely blasphemy and ye must needs be smitten and brought low to the earth...

It is quite obvious that he is more concerned with the growing number of pirates on this planet, and allowing young software engineers the opportunity to understand his noodly processes is just not a priority.

I do wish them luck though. --CC

Re:Quite Frankly.... (1)

fm6 (162816) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781745)

Sorry dude, someone made the ID joke 4 minutes before you did.

Re:Quite Frankly.... (3, Funny)

kfg (145172) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781766)

redundant
adj.
1. Taking the time to get it right.

KFG

Re:Quite Frankly.... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15781884)

stop signing your goddamn fucking initials.

someone who doesn't give a shit if you post logged in

Sad (4, Informative)

QuantumFTL (197300) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781529)

I personally use Fink (and love it, for all of its flaws), but it's sad to me to see a good alternative source for OSS on OS X bite the dust. The only reason I'm able to enjoy a proprietary OS like OS X is because of the availability of many of the best OSS packages (if not all), and the compatability this affords me with linux-based environments. Hopefully Gentoo on OS X [metadistribution.org] will go somewhere - does anyone know how it stacks up against Fink right now?

Re:Sad (2, Informative)

code shady (637051) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781628)

I haven't tried Gentoo on OS X but I have tried DarwinPorts, the OS X version of the BSD ports system. If you are familiar at all with the ports system, then DarwinPorts will be right up your alley. I love it. It doesn't seem to have the breadth that fink does, but it's still rather nice.

Unfortunatley, it does seem to be hosted on the OpenDarwin servers, so I wonder what the long term plans are for the maintainers of the project. I hope it can continue to exist, as I for one would miss the nice ports style installation and management on OS X.

Re:Sad (4, Informative)

taybin (622573) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781629)

This isn't the end of the darwinports project. That project was just hosted on the opendarwin servers.

Re:Sad (4, Insightful)

QuantumFTL (197300) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781644)

Thanks, I misunderstood the announcment. Still sad though, Apple should be giving more back to OSS - it owes much of its comeback to OSS (though not Free Software because it doesnt' seem to like GPL stuff much, like many corporations).

Re:Sad (3, Interesting)

aitikin (909209) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781833)

Extremely unfortunate for those of us who are OSS enthusiasts on OS X Gentoo on OS X is lightyears behind Fink. No GUI, very little support, and an update right now is impossible, because they have so many bugs that have to be worked out. I just tried to sync my portage tree and upgrade everything and I get errors galore! If people put effort into it, I'm sure it would be useful, but there haven't been many updates on it in forever and the forums are a major dissapointment. Gentoo has also impressed me with the community it has, but the Gentoo on OS X forum takes weeks for a response.

Even Fink is struggling (1)

jdbartlett (941012) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781837)

I try to use Fink when I can, but I like to stay on the bleeding edge. Everything in Fink seems so out of date. Ruby is still version 1.8.2, for example. That's the version that ships with Tiger in the first place!

I don't like to complain, though. Fink is still a wonderful concept. I just wish its admins didn't already have so many things they need to dedicate their time to.

In the meantime, though I do my development work and some testing on my Powerbook, my stable test server is an Ubuntu box. It's just easier to keep up-to-date, what with apt-get and all.

Sorry, but... (5, Interesting)

megaditto (982598) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781534)

Too bad their dreams did not work out, but frankly, they will not be missed.

Sure, they ported fink and some libs to Darwin, but that's pretty much it. ODP has been dorman for years, since 2002, pretty much.

Is Apple to blame for their luck of support? I do not think so; since they do have a neat thing going with http://developer.apple.com/opensource/ [apple.com]

.... Apple is NOT open-source, by any means. (2, Insightful)

feranick (858651) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781575)

Well, I don't really get how much "open source" there is in Apple's effort. To me it looks more like "open-source compatible". In other words, with tools provided you can compile your open-source software (read: linux code) for Darwin. However I don't really see a full open-source effort. To me open-source means that you have to release the source one way or another, and Apple doesn't release any piece of source code. It's not enough to be based on FreeBSD to acquire the status of "Open-Source".

Sorry, this is another of those marketing schemes of Apple's. In fact it's one of the main reason I am staying away from it.

P.S. What is Microsoft did the same?

Re:.... Apple is NOT open-source, by any means. (3, Informative)

megaditto (982598) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781631)

All of Darwin's source is 'open' in the sense that you are free to view, modify, and recompile it at will (unless you refuse to their fairly liberal license). All of it will work in OS X. With 10.3, you may rebuild Darwin from source, then 'drag&drop' the propriatory junk on top, and it will work! It is no longer possible to do that with 10.4_x86 since the TPM-related stuff is not released.

An example of open-source compatible OS would be OpenVMS in my mind, which is, of course, closed-source, but very programmer-friendly. Darwin is definitely more open than that.

Sure, there must be ulterior motives for the 'openness', but right now it's pretty convenient, and sure as hell beats programming for Windows. I mean, how much of Windows' kernel source would someone like me get to see without shelling out some serious cash?

Re:.... Apple is NOT open-source, by any means. (1)

feranick (858651) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781675)

Thanks for the clarification. However, being able to recompile Darwin, although possible (up to now at least) is a minimal part in the open-source effort. Would you still consider linux really open-source if the kernel were to be the only open source part of the OS, the rest being proprietary? What is the point of recompile a kernel, which anyway is locked into an hardware platform and has a proprietary desktop environment on top? Really I still think it's just a marketing scheme. Apple knows that using "open-source" brand is cool. But they are acting to keep their code as close as they can. Opening it would mean open the road for white box running OSX.

Re:.... Apple is NOT open-source, by any means. (2, Insightful)

linuxpyro (680927) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781692)

If I'm not mistaken, I believe that the proprietary stuff in OS X consists of the GUI mainly, and I suppose other things like CoreAudio. (If someone knows this a little more in depth, I'd be interested.) The stuff like Darwin is thus under their open source license. In other words, what makes it OS X and not just Open Darwin is proprietary.

Frankly, if Apple had decided to bas OS X on the Linux kernel, I'd probably be a Mac user now. At the moment, many of their products don't appeal to me enough for me to consider buying a Mac; this is just a personal preference. However, it would be cool to have true compatibility with other Linux distros, while still being able to run things like Photoshop seemlessly.

I suppose vendors like Adobe would not like this, as it would in theory make things easier for people wanting to run say Photoshop on other distros, but software like that would rely on Aqua anyway, so I don't know if it would be a big deal.

Oh well, just a thought.

Re:.... Apple is NOT open-source, by any means. (2, Informative)

EelcoV (891840) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781790)

Well, I don't really get how much "open source" there is in Apple's effort.

Apart from the kernel itself, you mean?

  • samba, for filesharing with Windows computers. Quite essential.
  • printing, with cups.
  • apache and php, for web serving.
  • postfix, your email MTA.
  • lots and lots of Gnu software (just about all lower-level software development tools are Gnu).
On the Server version of OS X there will be many more.

I think that if you removed all open source software from OS X and rebooted, your machine would not make it to the login display.

Re:.... Apple is NOT open-source, by any means. (1)

snuf23 (182335) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781811)

Uh, these are open source components that Apple incorporates into there closed OS. So I'm not sure there is any real benefit to open source that Apple is granting by using this. Does the BSD code in some of Microsoft Windows networking components help open source?
Apple's current OS is relies on it's open source code base, but the world of open source software would be pretty much exactly the same without Apple.

Re:.... Apple is NOT open-source, by any means. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15781816)

The bootloader is Open Source, so that machine would fail to boot: a broken apple icon :)

Re:Sorry, but... (2, Insightful)

babbling (952366) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781673)

The reason for this project failing is simple. MacOS is an "alternative operating system". If people value Free Software, it does not make sense to go from Windows to another proprietary operating system like MacOS. People who value Free Software either use Windows (because they have to or are pressured into doing so), or they use a Free Software operating system like Linux.

The only people who use MacOS are those who want an alternative operating system and don't care about whether it is Free Software or not.

Re:Sorry, but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15781703)

Not entirely true. I use os x and value free software, I like the idea of being able to change the source and being able to download and install cvs versions but am never going to write kernel drivers so that aspect does not concern me as much. I still use linux daily but when on os x i want to be able to use all the software I already know and enjoy using.

I tend to think of os x as a unix system with a different desktop on top of it. I still use the terminal heavily and use wget, screen, vim and all the other goodies that I am used to using.

Re:Sorry, but... (1)

babbling (952366) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781904)

Not entirely true. I use os x and value free software, I like the idea of being able to change the source and being able to download and install cvs versions but am never going to write kernel drivers so that aspect does not concern me as much. I still use linux daily but when on os x i want to be able to use all the software I already know and enjoy using.

Yeah, okay, you like Free Software. Who doesn't? I think you misunderstood me when I mentioned valuing Free Software, though. Not just the ability to use the source code whenever you want, but also the freedom to share the software with whoever you want without breaking the law, and the freedom to see how any part of the system works.

You like Free Software, but you do not value it, otherwise you would not be so willing to discard your freedom and use yet another "alternative" proprietary operating system.

Re:Sorry, but... (2, Informative)

NadNad (550015) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781717)

Fink was actually custom written on and for OS X by...well, by the authors of Fink. OpenDarwin is an entirely unrelated project.

Re:Sorry, but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15781724)

they do have a neat thing going with http://developer.apple.com/opensource/ [apple.com]

Yeah, the "neat thing" is leeching off of open source projects like KHTML [slashdot.org]. It was not until Apple was humilated to do so that they provided KHTML developers the proper documentation for code changes. This is why the GPL is important, no one can be a leech and pretend to be a friend of open source. If you change the source, you must give back - its human nature and it works!!

Re:Sorry, but... (5, Interesting)

jcr (53032) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781763)

Too bad their dreams did not work out, but frankly, they will not be missed.

They really missed the point. Darwin was never intended to be yet another open-source UNIX derivative like Linux or the BSDs. Its whole purpose was to make life a bit easier for people writing drivers for Mac OS X, so when they started beating their chests about how Apple was oppressing them, those of us in the Mac community bascially said: "Umm, who the fuck are you anyway, and why aren't you just using Mac OS X or Linux like a normal person would?"

-jcr

Sad but not unexpected (3, Interesting)

caseih (160668) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781540)

Apple never supported the open source version of darwin in any way beyond lip services, some server space, and releasing source packages in mostly unbuildable form. They took from many open source projects but returned precious little to the community. At the end of the day Apple does what immediately benefits Apple. It's sad, but it's likely the threat of hacking OS X to run on white box computers likely is the greatest reason for Apple to not release vital parts of the latest OS X source code. Yet this will still happen. In the meantime, Linux continues to grow and become better all the time. There just was no need for OpenDarwin without Aqua. If all you want is a unix-like OS to run servers, Linux suits the bill just fine.

Re:Sad but not unexpected (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15781659)

But things like that don't matter. Apple never supported Linux and that has become the best OS in the world. OSS is superior to closed source because all the bugs are shallow to a thousand eyes.

I just don't understand how this could happen.

Re:Sad but not unexpected (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15781727)

Apple never supported it becuase no one really needed it. Lets face it, Darwin was a solution in search of a mission.

Re:Sad but not unexpected (1)

dr.badass (25287) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781891)

Apple never supported the open source version of darwin in any way...

OpenDarwin is a fork of Apple's Darwin. Are you saying they should have supported a branch of Darwin other than the one they actually use? If so, when did you stop taking your medication?

They took from many open source projects but returned precious little to the community.

Maybe the community should ask for more than that when they license their code if that's what they want.

BSD's fault. (1, Insightful)

mactari (220786) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781893)

Look, not to get too preachy, but that's the problem with FreeBSD and projects with other, equally open licenses, like MIT, etc. As I said in my not-so-tongue-in-cheek blog to the audienceless ether [blogspot.com] years ago...

These licenses [X11, BSD, MIT] don't do enough to protect the contributions of the people that made the code -- they essentially enable legalized plagiarism. It's certainly one's right to make code that's this unregulated, but these licenses are from nearly overly altruistic motavations.

I'm using OS X right now. I'm happy FreeBSD enabled its creation. I'm posting from Safari. I'm happy Konq's code helped Apple build this very fast, mature browser. Without totally free and open licenses like the ones I wrote about, above, we wouldn't have this OS X.

Yet at the same time, this happiness doesn't change that I wish Apple would have partnered with GNU/Linux. We'd see a very different OS X and a very different collaboration (some would argue a "collaboration" would be a new thing, and I believe I agree) between Apple and the GNU hacker community today. Linux has not yet come close to hitting the tipping point on the desktop for the typical semi-technical user. With Apple's help, it would be much closer. With BSD's sabotage -- the license -- that help and the FreeBSD code has been thrown into the closed system of consumerist capitalism.

Open source fails it? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15781545)

That's unpossible!

Sometimes I wish I weren't such a sux programmer. (1)

dosius (230542) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781551)

If I were a better programmer, I could make the project I've wanted: an update of GNUstep to be more library-compatible with OSX, and an OS using it with Darwin.

-uso.

Re:Sometimes I wish I weren't such a sux programme (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781591)

I sometimes wonder why this isn't an ongoing project like Wine. I think it's two things: 1) Few developers are interested in both Macs and asm. 2) It's such a narrow target. I mean, what Mac apps would you want to run on Linux that you can't find a windows version to run on Wine or some windows emulator.

Re:Sometimes I wish I weren't such a sux programme (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15781708)

3) and you can get more binaries to run with wine than sources to recompile with gnustep...

Re:Sometimes I wish I weren't such a sux programme (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781869)

The idea of improving GnuStep so it is binary compatible with the OS-X api is so you can run OS-X binaries.

The fact that I can't think of a single OS-X binary I'd want to run for which there isn't a corresponding windows binary might has something to do with why no-one wants to improve GnuStep in this way.

Re:Sometimes I wish I weren't such a sux programme (2, Interesting)

jcr (53032) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781750)

[Re: GNUStep]

I sometimes wonder why this isn't an ongoing project like Wine.

Well, basically, it's like this: the people who know enough to work on it are, for the most part just using Mac OS X, and most of the Linux crowd can't really tell the difference between GNUStep and Gnome (ie, they actually believe Gnome is good enough).

The upshot is that the contributors to GNUStep are a very small number indeed, and it's amazing how far they've gotten with so few people working on it.

-jcr

Re:Sometimes I wish I weren't such a sux programme (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781828)

Most of the linux crowd don't know why gtk+ Qt because they believe C > C++. What's funny is that I've heard of Python users who believe this. Last time I looked the PyQt bindings were way cleaner than the PyGtk bindings. Blah, whatever.

Personally, I have no idea why people want to run any proprietary software on their Linux box, except maybe games and "shit you can't live without". Maybe no-one who uses a Mac ever migrates to Linux. :)

DarwinPorts (2, Interesting)

Distinguished Hero (618385) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781597)

I wonder what will happen to DarwinPorts [opendarwin.org].

Re:DarwinPorts (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15781719)

Darwinports will remain alive. There's a message to this effect on the mailing list.

Apple has been pissing me off (1, Flamebait)

nukem996 (624036) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781632)

I work with a lot of users and all they talk about is how great it is but when I mention Linux they respond with "But OS X is Linux" I try to tell them that OS X actually uses the BSD kernel with some parts of open source projects(mostly KDE) but they say "same thing" it really pisses me off(especially as a Linux user). I cannt imagine what the BSD developers/users feel. Anyway I always though the Apple commitment to open source was half-ass/shady. blah I just hope more Apple users smarten up and switch to Linux or a real BSD system.

Re:Apple has been pissing me off (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15781638)

I'd imagine the BSD developers get annoyed that you don't know the difference between a kernel and userland.

OSX uses Mach as its kernel (sort of), BSD as the source of much of its userland and some libraries, and a ton of proprietary code.

Re:Apple has been pissing me off (1)

nukem996 (624036) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781656)

I guess I was over simplifying things. I was just trying to state that most users think the hole system is Linux with an Apple GUI. When its not even close to that and the open source parts are from the BSD kernel, not the Linux kernel, as well as various open source projects.

Re:Apple has been pissing me off (1)

Al Dimond (792444) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781791)

The point of your parent comment is that OS X uses nothing from the Linux or BSD *kernels*. It uses some BSD userspace code.

The kernel is the lowest-level part of an operating system, which provides abstractions between programs that users see and the hardware. Some of the most important of these abstractions are virtualization of limited physical resources such as CPU and memory, so that programs don't have to worry about sharing them. Userspace programs that are generally considered part of the OS include standard libraries, command shells and basic utilities.

Re:Apple has been pissing me off (1)

nukem996 (624036) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781815)

Its still using user space BSD code and not the Linux kernel. People think its using the Linux kernel.

Re:Apple has been pissing me off (5, Insightful)

exp(pi*sqrt(163)) (613870) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781661)

blah I just hope more Apple users smarten up and switch to Linux or a real BSD system.
And I hope more users get over the whole macho thing and give up using an OS where every trivial little task becomes some monumental quest where you have to prove yourself worthy by constructing scripts, .rc files and kernel configurations, and switch from BSD and Linux to MacOSX. But that's just my opinion.

Re:Apple has been pissing me off (1)

nukem996 (624036) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781682)

I installed Fedora Core 5 on my grandparents computer added a user from them and me then turned on automatic updates and havnt had to do a thing since. I dont know when the last time you used Linux but distros like Redhat/Fedora, SUSE, and Mandrake make everything brainless.

Re:Apple has been pissing me off (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15781715)

I never made an .rc file in linux. Havn't bothered with kernel configs, the stock compiled ones work fine.

I make scripts in osx too.

Re:Apple has been pissing me off (1)

nick.ian.k (987094) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781780)

I'm eager to see your camp drop the sehr-macho dickwaving and try a modern distro on hardware that's known to be compatible. You'll be astonished at how little hoop-jumping is necessary on Linux these days. Things are known to work for other people and work well, your own experiences be damned.

The evangelism's been going on since '84. Some people don't *need* to be saved. Deal with it.

Re:Apple has been pissing me off (1)

geminidomino (614729) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781856)

I'm eager to see your camp drop the sehr-macho dickwaving

You know, when I see "Apple" I think a lot of things, most of them less than complementary. One word that never comes to my mind, though, is "macho."

Quite the opposite. I'm always half-expecting a flying finger-snap.

Re:Apple has been pissing me off (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15781846)

You're confused: we're using ELF, you OS X guys are the ones using mach-o. :-p

Why blame Apple... (1)

2nd Post! (213333) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781677)

When it is the uninformed user who keeps upsetting your equilibrium? All Apple has done is release source, adopted open source products internally, and contribute to other open source projects.

If Apple users smarten up, it in no way changes what Apple has done and continues to do: use open source when beneficial.

Re:Why blame Apple... (1)

nukem996 (624036) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781752)

Well thats what really pisses me off. Apple uses and abuses open source. This is why GPL is a much better license. (warning: over simplifying) Companies can use the software but any changes they made must be put back. Apple had a chance to be a really good open source company but blew it.

Re:Apple has been pissing me off (-1, Troll)

babbling (952366) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781688)

Apple are bastards. They'd be considered "worse than Microsoft" if only they were half as successful as Microsoft.

Apple:
- Proprietary software.
- Pushing DRM onto unsuspecting mainstream customers.
- Shitty hardware that has defects or frequent failures.

Re:Apple has been pissing me off (0, Flamebait)

nukem996 (624036) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781699)

You forgot the hardware is exspensive as hell and the warrenties suck.

Linux (zealots) have been pissing me off (2, Insightful)

cloricus (691063) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781732)

Smarten up...A real unix system...Linux/BSD is the only way...

As a Linux user of four years who has recently bought their first, personal, mac laptop I wish to call bullshit. I'd like to point out that OSX still plays a very important part in Linux development (less so in BSD) - specifically in regards to new features. Take for example xgl/compiz and xcompmgr which will be in full deployment for when Vista ships to compete with the M$ eye candy...Sure it only came into the lime light when Vistas beta's started shipping and the glory project status moved to them though without earlier projects like luminocity (etc) which was an attempt to add mac grade eye candy to Linux there wouldn't have been the ground work or the test case for this. And even now look at xcompmgr with transett or compiz - they just basically fashion themselves after inbuilt mac effects or 3rd party add ins that have existed for awhile under OSX.

On top of that mac make computers end users like and OSX Just Works(tm) which for a Linux user is really handy some days when Debian sid decides it wants to blow the heads off all the toys. It also interconnects flawlessly with my other Linux boxes through ssh, samba, nfs, vnc and everything I need (I use Fink for random unix tools I need).

Lastly OSX shows every day users that there are Real! alternatives to Windows that don't have the stigma of To Hard attached that they can try and enjoy. So really outside the RM ethos of everything should be open (to which, hypocritically in context of the above, I subscribe) there isn't really much reason for a mac user to smarten up and switch, try maybe, to Linux (and a mac user wouldn't touch BSD).

Re:Linux (zealots) have been pissing me off (1)

nukem996 (624036) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781794)

Apple has done some very good things to heaten up competition but im talking technically Apple has done some bad things. For the (it just works) Ive also had the pleasure of fixing Macs that wont install GIMP or connect to our Novell network. I really dont think any OS can be an "It just works" environment. It is great that Apple is showing alternatives to Windows although since parallels came out many of them have been putting that on(ive install it on a couple of machines). Many Apple will help open people up to trying new things but still people want a multibillion dollar company to support it(even if they dont use the support)

Re:Linux (zealots) have been pissing me off (1)

cloricus (691063) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781864)

Agreed. Apple is no angel. Personally I think Jobs is a prat.

Though on the other topic you raised - I don't see dual OS use lasting very long, the hype has been huge, the level of annoyance in the process has been only slightly removed, and the case for every day use hasn't been made. Virtualisation will probably only ever be used on servers that are doing many tasks and could really take advantage of sandboxing. When it all dies down we will be left with Vista which is a poorly implemented version of the OS X gui on the NT kernel, Linux which will have left Vista in the dirt (mmm no DRM, mac eye candy, legacy support for everything Vista breaks etc) but have no where to really go itself, and OS X which (while still having every day hassles) will still be pushing a head with new features and ideas having already surpassed Vista in feature set and usability (hell 95 beats Vista in usability - the fucking 'You are a newb and you are about to change a minor system setting, press okay to continue'x5 dialogues are enough to send any user mad).

So really I do believe Linux needs mac and its users at the end of the day, how ever evil and closed apple are, so it has some thing to catch up to and one up else it will just be sitting twiddling its thumbs making sure it can install GIMP without a problem until the next Windows version and even god doesn't know when that will be.

Re:Apple has been pissing me off (1)

bsartist (550317) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781735)

I work with a lot of [non-geek] users and all they talk about is how great it is but when I mention Linux they respond with "But OS X is Linux" I try to tell them that OS X actually uses [geeky technobabble] but they say "same thing"
I've added a few things to the above. My additions are in brackets and bolded - they might help explain the disconnect you're seeing. To the end users you're talking to, Unix means "it doesn't lock up twice a day like %*$#@ MacOS 9 did". The rest is just boring technobabble they don't understand and don't want to.

Re:Apple has been pissing me off (1)

nukem996 (624036) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781765)

Well whats said is they may not be geeky but there computer teachers and one was going for a PHD in comp sci, so its not like they know nothing about computers. But still I get the same response from them as I do with non-geeks.

Re:Apple has been pissing me off (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15781873)

Maybe you should hang out with English teachers instead of "computer teachers", although from your flaming posts, it appears you need the help of both.

BSD users feel the same as always. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15781756)

We feel "who cares what other people are running?". I feel the same about OSX users as I do about windows users, I don't care at all. Linux users on the other hand do bug us, since they do such stupid shit to their servers, and then when we take over when they get fired, it takes forever to clean up the mess.

Re:BSD users feel the same as always. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15781849)

and everyone feels that BSD users just pout how great BSD and get pissed off that BSD users tend to try to shit all over everyone while there really nothing special.

Re:Apple has been pissing me off (1)

geminidomino (614729) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781832)

but they say "same thing" it really pisses me off

Don't let it get to you. These are the same sort of people who call a PC the "modem", the 3.5" floppy the "hard drive" and the monitor the "computer."

They don't care enough to know why they're wrong, so you shouldn't care enough to be annoyed by them.

Re:Apple has been pissing me off (1)

nukem996 (624036) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781860)

Its not something I obsesse on just something that gets annoying when im talking to them.

Re:Apple has been pissing me off (1)

LorfOfHugs (991057) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781839)

Apple marketing has irritated me forever. From back in the days with the snail for a Pentium - at a time when their hardware was never actually faster than Intel's (except for that bogus Photoshop benchmark that everyone cited). Now the the current dork vs. the hip youth that speaks Japanese. Apple has never impressed me with any actual accomplishment - it survives via marketing that makes it's consumers feel superior to the rest of the world (this means you Slashdot). They're purely a branding company that lives on this site because they're not Microsoft. Way to go Apple!

I wonder (2, Interesting)

Bartmoss (16109) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781689)

I wonder if they're afraid that people would try to use the opendarwin kernel with mac os x for intel to run the whole thing on any machine.

Re:I wonder (2, Interesting)

mi (197448) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781713)

This might be it... Or even better — porting the neccessary bits and pieces to have, say, MS Office for MacOS X (Intel) to run natively on FreeBSD (Intel), may turn out to be simpler, than getting WINE above alpha-quality...

Re:I wonder (3, Interesting)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781733)

Yep. As soon as Intel Macs came out, they stopped updating the open version of their kernel. Goals? I don't think goals had much to do with it.

Bruce

Re:I wonder (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15781826)

Bruce,

Please shut your fat fucking cum-encrusted pie hole.

Thanks,

"The Community"

Re:I wonder (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15781874)

Attention -- this is not Bruce Perens.

The real Bruce Perens has a dot after his name, like this: "Bruce Perens."

This is an impostor who gets some kind of sick joy out of impersonating him.

Sad News (2, Interesting)

Balial (39889) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781704)

As a Darbat [nicta.com.au] (L4/Darwin) developer this is sad, and will be a bit of a set-back. We were hoping to try and become involved with the OpenDarwin community. I'm really sorry to see that this really handy resource will be going.

Too bad it wasn't gnu-darwin shut down (1)

NaCh0 (6124) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781711)

Advogato [advogato.org] readers will know the true shame is that opendarwin is closing and not gnu-darwin.

Apple Rapidly Losing Its Cool (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15781739)

This bad news in this article along with:

http://www.resexcellence.com/news/?p=160 [resexcellence.com]

And all the defects/problems the new Intel Macs have. And Xcode showing no signs of ever being anything but garbage.

And the embarrassingly bad Apple OpenGL drivers.

As a long time Apple developer I find myself with the shocking to myself feeling that Linux is looking more and more attractive every day and Vista actually looking like a attractive OS to develop on.

If there just was a decent music app for my many hundreds of gigs of music I listen to all day while programming on Linux I would be ready to ditch Apple for good.

It seems that Apple has been on nothing but a downtrend every since getting the boot from IBM.

(If you say Amarok I will kick your ass...)

Re:Apple Rapidly Losing Its Cool (4, Funny)

paulmer2003 (922657) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781812)

No need for amarok, just do this. ls * > ./playlist && mplayer -shuffle -playlist ./playlist Or ls */*.mp3 > ./playlist && mplayer -shuffle -playlist ./playlist :) mplayer for life, bitches.

Don't fret. (5, Informative)

gklinger (571901) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781768)

I started out using Fink [sourceforge.net] but it never felt quite right. Then I tried DarwinPorts and I've been happy ever since. As a result, when I saw this story my first thought was, "What will happen to DarinPorts?" I checked the Darwinports Mailing List Archive [opendarwin.org] and found this [opendarwin.org] comforting post. To summarize, DarwinPorts is alive and well and will continue. Time to start using www.darwinports.org [darwinports.org] rather than www.opendarwin.org.

Re:Don't fret. (2, Interesting)

Rimbo (139781) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781894)

Thanks for looking that up, and for the link. I, too, became a DarwinPorts fan after being disappointed with Fink. Fink has the better name, but DarwinPorts -works- better for me. I've never had problems with a DP package installing correctly; whereas I had all kinds of troubles with Fink.

DP's "it just works" capabilities means I get more work done.

MIKE TYSON DEAD. (-1, Offtopic)

shivermitimbers (991055) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781770)

http://www.cnn.com/newsreport/entertainment/=94847 3649miketyson.dead.html [cnn.com] Yep, mike tyson died last night at 11:34 at night.

now is the time... (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15781830)

to switch to GNU Darwin (http://www.gnu-darwin.org/)
I haven't used it myself, but it seems to be more of a full system (with GNOME and WindowMaker) and more actively developed than OpenDarwin ever was.

What a surprise... (0, Troll)

evilviper (135110) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781835)

Gee... You mean lifting large chunks of code from other free operating systems to create a slow and very limited OS, and then imposing restrictive license terms on that free code, somehow doesn't automatically lead to an OSS project everyone wants to jump on???

I'm SHOCKED! Shocked I say!

Somehow I don't think the end of OpenDarwin is going to mean Apple will stop lifting code from the BSDs.

Re:What a surprise... (1)

jeffbax (905041) | more than 7 years ago | (#15781875)

Nevermind that Apple employs many people responsible for FreeBSD Development too...

oh the irony (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15781841)

Natural selection at its finest!

Merely the latest in a long run of OSS failures (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15781848)

OpenDarwin was originally created with the goal of providing a development environment for building and developing Mac OS X sources as well as developing a standalone Darwin OS derivative. OpenDarwin was meant to be a development community and a proving ground for fixes and features for Mac OS X and Darwin, which could be picked up by Apple for inclusion in the canonical sources. OpenDarwin has failed to achieve its goals in 4 years of operation, and moves further from achieving these goals as time goes on. For this reason, OpenDarwin will be shutting down.

Over the past few years, OpenDarwin has become a mere hosting facility for Mac OS X related projects. The original notions of developing the Mac OS X and Darwin sources has not panned out. Availability of sources, interaction with Apple representatives, difficulty building and tracking sources, and a lack of interest from the community have all contributed to this. Administering a system to host other people's projects is not what the remaining OpenDarwin contributors had signed up for and have been doing this thankless task far longer than they expected. It is time for OpenDarwin to go dark.


So much for OSS "community" stepping up to the plate. What, is it only if you're taking on Microsoft that you guys give a damn about a project? And it's not a shock that many of you OSS devs were mooching off of OpenDarwin's servers to host your insignificant little projects, while contributing nothing to the OpenDarwin project itself.
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