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203 comments

Of course they were. (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15895643)

I've already predicted that terrorists would get found using wiretapping. Meaning, that's what would be put in the PR, no matter what ACTUALLY happened.

Addendum. (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15895689)

In fact, the first reports -- before the higher ups in the real PR department got into full spin -- was that the reason these people were tracked was because after the London bombings a relative contacted the police with suspicions. You will note how that in itelf would TRIVIALLY allow the police the right to do taps under the OLD laws. No massive tapping of everyone, no carte blanche needed. Just the good old normal "We have resonable suspicion, please allow us to tap these people, Judge".

This is just "Lock The Laws In" spinning. 100% full throttle let us build a Big Brother Government so pervasive that there is no doubt that terrorism is in fact working excellently-spinning.

And it'll work. The phantom enemy, the "intelligent network", will win. Wasn't it odd that the first press conference I saw had a talking head explaning how this was ''very similar to an Al-Qaeda plot'', trying directly to instill that link to the ''network of evil'' as it were.

Sickening. Truly.

PLZ HLP K THX (1)

GET THE FACTS! (850779) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895645)

Date/Time: 2006-08-12 16:28:45.598 -0400<br>
OS Version: 10.4.7 (Build 8J2135)<br>
Report Version: 4
<p>Command: firefox-bin<br>
        Path: /Applications/Firefox.app/Contents/MacOS/firefox-b in<br>
        Parent: WindowServer [61]</p>
<p>Version: 1.5.0.6 (1.5.0.6)</p>
<p>PID: 2722<br>
        Thread: 0</p>
<p>Exception: EXC_BAD_INSTRUCTION (0x0002)<br>
        Code[0]: 0x0000000d<br>
        Code[1]: 0x00006e64<br>
</p>
<p>Thread 0 Crashed:<br>
        0 libSystem.B.dylib 0x9002a3f2 _longjmp + 42</p>
<p>Thread 1:<br>
        0 libSystem.B.dylib 0x9001aafc select + 12<br>
        1 libnspr4.dylib 0x00fb58e8 PR_Poll + 134<br>
        2 org.mozilla.firefox 0x003b5581 nsSocketTransportService::Poll(unsigned*) + 85<br>
        3 org.mozilla.firefox 0x003b5b66 nsSocketTransportService::Run() + 480<br>
        4 libxpcom_core.dylib 0x00ef7a19 nsThread::Main(void*) + 41<br>
        5 libnspr4.dylib 0x00fb6f29 PR_Select + 813<br>
        6 libSystem.B.dylib 0x90024b07 _pthread_body + 84</p>
<p>Thread 2:<br>
        0 libSystem.B.dylib 0x900492e7 semaphore_timedwait_signal_trap + 7<br>
        1 libnspr4.dylib 0x00fb25c0 PR_Lock + 246<br>
        2 libnspr4.dylib 0x00fb2917 PR_WaitCondVar + 75<br>
        3 libxpcom_core.dylib 0x00ef9d30 TimerThread::Run() + 74<br>
        4 libxpcom_core.dylib 0x00ef7a19 nsThread::Main(void*) + 41<br>
        5 libnspr4.dylib 0x00fb6f29 PR_Select + 813<br>
        6 libSystem.B.dylib 0x90024b07 _pthread_body + 84</p>
<p>Thread 3:<br>
        0 libSystem.B.dylib 0x9000a5c7 mach_msg_trap + 7<br>
        1 com.apple.CoreFoundation 0x9082369a CFRunLoopRunSpecific + 2014<br>
        2 com.apple.CoreFoundation 0x90822eb5 CFRunLoopRunInMode + 61<br>
        3 com.apple.audio.CoreAudio 0x914588da HALRunLoop::OwnThread(void*) + 158<br>
        4 com.apple.audio.CoreAudio 0x914586f5 CAPThread::Entry(CAPThread*) + 93<br>
        5 libSystem.B.dylib 0x90024b07 _pthread_body + 84</p>
<p>Thread 4:<br>
        0 libSystem.B.dylib 0x9002763c kevent + 12<br>
        1 ...ple.CoreServices.CarbonCore 0x90ca9ae4 PrivateMPEntryPoint + 51<br>
        2 libSystem.B.dylib 0x90024b07 _pthread_body + 84</p>
<p>Thread 5:<br>
        0 libSystem.B.dylib 0x900251a7 semaphore_wait_signal_trap + 7<br>
        1 ...ple.CoreServices.CarbonCore 0x90ca9c8a MPWaitOnQueue + 198<br>
        2 com.apple.DesktopServices 0x9264ef3f TNodeSyncTask::SyncTaskProc(void*) + 143<br>
        3 ...ple.CoreServices.CarbonCore 0x90ca9ae4 PrivateMPEntryPoint + 51<br>
        4 libSystem.B.dylib 0x90024b07 _pthread_body + 84</p>
<p>Thread 6:<br>
        0 libSystem.B.dylib 0x900492e7 semaphore_timedwait_signal_trap + 7<br>
        1 libnspr4.dylib 0x00fb25c0 PR_Lock + 246<br>
        2 libnspr4.dylib 0x00fb2917 PR_WaitCondVar + 75<br>
        3 org.mozilla.firefox 0x0037a38d nsIOThreadPool::ThreadFunc(void*) + 145<br>
        4 libnspr4.dylib 0x00fb6f29 PR_Select + 813<br>
        5 libSystem.B.dylib 0x90024b07 _pthread_body + 84</p>
<p>Thread 7:<br>
        0 libSystem.B.dylib 0x900492e7 semaphore_timedwait_signal_trap + 7<br>
        1 libnspr4.dylib 0x00fb25c0 PR_Lock + 246<br>
        2 libnspr4.dylib 0x00fb2917 PR_WaitCondVar + 75<br>
        3 org.mozilla.firefox 0x006426e2 nsHostResolver::GetHostToLookup(nsHostRecord**) + 212<br>
        4 org.mozilla.firefox 0x00642e8f nsHostResolver::ThreadFunc(void*) + 123<br>
        5 libnspr4.dylib 0x00fb6f29 PR_Select + 813<br>
        6 libSystem.B.dylib 0x90024b07 _pthread_body + 84</p>
<p>Thread 8:<br>
        0 libSystem.B.dylib 0x9000a5c7 mach_msg_trap + 7<br>
        1 ...romedia.Flash Player.plugin 0x1bab9701 native_ShockwaveFlash_TCallFrame + 324727<br>
        2 libSystem.B.dylib 0x90024b07 _pthread_body + 84</p>
<p>Thread 9:<br>
        0 libSystem.B.dylib 0x900492e7 semaphore_timedwait_signal_trap + 7<br>
        1 libnspr4.dylib 0x00fb25c0 PR_Lock + 246<br>
        2 libnspr4.dylib 0x00fb2917 PR_WaitCondVar + 75<br>
        3 org.mozilla.firefox 0x0037a38d nsIOThreadPool::ThreadFunc(void*) + 145<br>
        4 libnspr4.dylib 0x00fb6f29 PR_Select + 813<br>
        5 libSystem.B.dylib 0x90024b07 _pthread_body + 84</p>
<p>Thread 0 crashed with i386 Thread State:<br>
        eax: 0x00000001 ebx: 0x00000000 ecx:0x1bc3bbd8 edx: 0x9002a3c8<br>
        edi: 0x00000001 esi: 0x00000000 ebp:0x00000000 esp: 0x00000000<br>
        ss: 0x0000002f efl: 0x00010202 eip:0x9002a3f2 cs: 0x00000027<br>
        ds: 0x0000002f es: 0x0000002f fs:0x00000000 gs: 0x00000037</p>
<p>Binary Images Description:<br>
        0x1000 - 0x913fff org.mozilla.firefox 1.5.0.6 /Applications/Firefox.app/Contents/MacOS/firefox-b in<br>
        0xe18000 - 0xe9cfff libmozjs.dylib /Applications/Firefox.app/Contents/MacOS/libmozjs. dylib<br>
        0xeb3000 - 0xeb3fff libxpcom.dylib /Applications/Firefox.app/Contents/MacOS/libxpcom. dylib<br>
        0xeb7000 - 0xf25fff libxpcom_core.dylib /Applications/Firefox.app/Contents/MacOS/libxpcom_ core.dylib<br>
        0xf86000 - 0xf8bfff libplds4.dylib /Applications/Firefox.app/Contents/MacOS/libplds4. dylib<br>
        0xf90000 - 0xf96fff libplc4.dylib /Applications/Firefox.app/Contents/MacOS/libplc4.d ylib<br>
        0xf9c000 - 0xfc1fff libnspr4.dylib /Applications/Firefox.app/Contents/MacOS/libnspr4. dylib<br>
        0xfd2000 - 0xfebfff libsmime3.dylib /Applications/Firefox.app/Contents/MacOS/libsmime3 .dylib<br>
        0x1808000 - 0x1823fff libssl3.dylib /Applications/Firefox.app/Contents/MacOS/libssl3.d ylib<br>
        0x182b000 - 0x1880fff libnss3.dylib /Applications/Firefox.app/Contents/MacOS/libnss3.d ylib<br>
        0x189c000 - 0x18abfff libxpcom_compat.dylib /Applications/Firefox.app/Contents/MacOS/libxpcom_ compat.dylib<br>
        0x1a05000 - 0x1a88fff libsoftokn3.dylib /Applications/Firefox.app/Contents/MacOS/libsoftok n3.dylib<br>
        0x1f1a000 - 0x1f1bfff com.apple.textencoding.unicode 2.1 /System/Library/TextEncodings/Unicode Encodings.bundle/Contents/MacOS/Unicode Encodings<br>
        0x1f42000 - 0x1f6dfff libnssckbi.dylib /Applications/Firefox.app/Contents/MacOS/libnssckb i.dylib<br>
        0x1963d000 - 0x19666fff com.apple.audio.SoundManager.Components 3.9.2 /System/Library/Components/SoundManagerComponents. component/Contents/MacOS/SoundManagerComponents<br >
        0x19766000 - 0x1976bfff com.apple.audio.AppleHDAHALPlugIn 1.1.7 (1.1.7a2) /System/Library/Extensions/AppleHDA.kext/Contents/ PlugIns/AppleHDAHALPlugIn.bundle/Contents/MacOS/Ap pleHDAHALPlugIn<br>
        0x1a7a6000 - 0x1a7aafff net.telestream.wmv.plugin 2.1.0.33 /Library/Internet Plug-Ins/Flip4Mac WMV Plugin.plugin/Contents/MacOS/Flip4Mac WMV Plugin<br>
        0x1b6dd000 - 0x1bbf3fff com.macromedia.Flash Player.plugin 9.0.0 (1.0.4f18) /Library/Internet Plug-Ins/Flash Player.plugin/Contents/MacOS/Flash Player<br>
        0x8fd50000 - 0x8fd8bfff com.apple.QuickTimeFireWireDV.component 7.1.2 /System/Library/QuickTime/QuickTimeFireWireDV.comp onent/Contents/MacOS/QuickTimeFireWireDV<br>
        0x8fe00000 - 0x8fe4cfff dyld 45.3 /usr/lib/dyld<br>
        0x90000000 - 0x9016efff libSystem.B.dylib /usr/lib/libSystem.B.dylib<br>
        0x901be000 - 0x901c0fff libmathCommon.A.dylib /usr/lib/system/libmathCommon.A.dylib<br>
        0x901c2000 - 0x901fefff com.apple.CoreText 1.1.1 (???) /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.fra mework/Versions/A/Frameworks/CoreText.framework/Ve rsions/A/CoreText<br>
        0x90225000 - 0x902fafff ATS /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.fra mework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ATS.framework/Version s/A/ATS<br>
        0x9031a000 - 0x9076afff com.apple.CoreGraphics 1.258.33 (???) /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.fra mework/Versions/A/Frameworks/CoreGraphics.framewor k/Versions/A/CoreGraphics<br>
        0x90801000 - 0x908c9fff com.apple.CoreFoundation 6.4.6 (368.27) /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreFoundation.framewor k/Versions/A/CoreFoundation<br>
        0x90907000 - 0x90907fff com.apple.CoreServices 10.4 (???) /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/ Versions/A/CoreServices<br>
        0x90909000 - 0x909fcfff libicucore.A.dylib /usr/lib/libicucore.A.dylib<br>
        0x90a4c000 - 0x90acbfff libobjc.A.dylib /usr/lib/libobjc.A.dylib<br>
        0x90af4000 - 0x90b57fff libstdc++.6.dylib /usr/lib/libstdc++.6.dylib<br>
        0x90bc6000 - 0x90bcdfff libgcc_s.1.dylib /usr/lib/libgcc_s.1.dylib<br>
        0x90bd2000 - 0x90c42fff com.apple.framework.IOKit 1.4.4 (???) /System/Library/Frameworks/IOKit.framework/Version s/A/IOKit<br>
        0x90c57000 - 0x90c69fff libauto.dylib /usr/lib/libauto.dylib<br>
        0x90c6f000 - 0x90f14fff com.apple.CoreServices.CarbonCore 682.12 /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/ Versions/A/Frameworks/CarbonCore.framework/Version s/A/CarbonCore<br>
        0x90f57000 - 0x90fbffff com.apple.CoreServices.OSServices 4.1 /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/ Versions/A/Frameworks/OSServices.framework/Version s/A/OSServices<br>
        0x90ff7000 - 0x91035fff com.apple.CFNetwork 129.16 /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/ Versions/A/Frameworks/CFNetwork.framework/Versions /A/CFNetwork<br>
        0x91047000 - 0x91057fff com.apple.WebServices 1.1.3 (1.1.0) /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/ Versions/A/Frameworks/WebServicesCore.framework/Ve rsions/A/WebServicesCore<br>
        0x91062000 - 0x910e0fff com.apple.SearchKit 1.0.5 /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/ Versions/A/Frameworks/SearchKit.framework/Versions /A/SearchKit<br>
        0x91115000 - 0x91133fff com.apple.Metadata 10.4.4 (121.36) /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/ Versions/A/Frameworks/Metadata.framework/Versions/ A/Metadata<br>
        0x9113f000 - 0x9114dfff libz.1.dylib /usr/lib/libz.1.dylib<br>
        0x91150000 - 0x91306fff com.apple.security 4.4.1 (27569) /System/Library/Frameworks/Security.framework/Vers ions/A/Security<br>
        0x913f5000 - 0x913fdfff com.apple.DiskArbitration 2.1 /System/Library/Frameworks/DiskArbitration.framewo rk/Versions/A/DiskArbitration<br>
        0x91404000 - 0x9142afff com.apple.SystemConfiguration 1.8.6 /System/Library/Frameworks/SystemConfiguration.fra mework/Versions/A/SystemConfiguration<br>
        0x9143c000 - 0x91443fff libbsm.dylib /usr/lib/libbsm.dylib<br>
        0x91447000 - 0x914c0fff com.apple.audio.CoreAudio 3.0.4 /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreAudio.framework/Ver sions/A/CoreAudio<br>
        0x9150e000 - 0x9150efff com.apple.ApplicationServices 10.4 (???) /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.fra mework/Versions/A/ApplicationServices<br>
        0x91510000 - 0x9153bfff com.apple.AE 314 (313) /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.fra mework/Versions/A/Frameworks/AE.framework/Versions /A/AE<br>
        0x9154e000 - 0x91622fff com.apple.ColorSync 4.4.6 /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.fra mework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ColorSync.framework/V ersions/A/ColorSync<br>
        0x9165b000 - 0x916d8fff com.apple.print.framework.PrintCore 4.6 (177.13) /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.fra mework/Versions/A/Frameworks/PrintCore.framework/V ersions/A/PrintCore<br>
        0x91705000 - 0x917affff com.apple.QD 3.10.20 (???) /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.fra mework/Versions/A/Frameworks/QD.framework/Versions /A/QD<br>
        0x917d5000 - 0x91820fff com.apple.HIServices 1.5.2 (???) /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.fra mework/Versions/A/Frameworks/HIServices.framework/ Versions/A/HIServices<br>
        0x9183f000 - 0x91855fff com.apple.LangAnalysis 1.6.3 /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.fra mework/Versions/A/Frameworks/LangAnalysis.framewor k/Versions/A/LangAnalysis<br>
        0x91861000 - 0x9187bfff com.apple.FindByContent 1.5 /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.fra mework/Versions/A/Frameworks/FindByContent.framewo rk/Versions/A/FindByContent<br>
        0x91885000 - 0x918c2fff com.apple.LaunchServices 181 /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.fra mework/Versions/A/Frameworks/LaunchServices.framew ork/Versions/A/LaunchServices<br>
        0x918d6000 - 0x918e1fff com.apple.speech.synthesis.framework 3.4 /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.fra mework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SpeechSynthesis.frame work/Versions/A/SpeechSynthesis<br>
        0x918e8000 - 0x91920fff com.apple.ImageIO.framework 1.4.8 /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.fra mework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ImageIO.framework/Ver sions/A/ImageIO<br>
        0x91932000 - 0x919e4fff libcrypto.0.9.7.dylib /usr/lib/libcrypto.0.9.7.dylib<br>
        0x91a2a000 - 0x91a40fff libcups.2.dylib /usr/lib/libcups.2.dylib<br>
        0x91a45000 - 0x91a61fff libJPEG.dylib /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.fra mework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ImageIO.framework/Ver sions/A/Resources/libJPEG.dylib<br>
        0x91a66000 - 0x91ac4fff libJP2.dylib /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.fra mework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ImageIO.framework/Ver sions/A/Resources/libJP2.dylib<br>
        0x91ad4000 - 0x91ad8fff libGIF.dylib /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.fra mework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ImageIO.framework/Ver sions/A/Resources/libGIF.dylib<br>
        0x91ada000 - 0x91b35fff libRaw.dylib /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.fra mework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ImageIO.framework/Ver sions/A/Resources/libRaw.dylib<br>
        0x91b39000 - 0x91b76fff libTIFF.dylib /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.fra mework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ImageIO.framework/Ver sions/A/Resources/libTIFF.dylib<br>
        0x91b7c000 - 0x91b96fff libPng.dylib /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.fra mework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ImageIO.framework/Ver sions/A/Resources/libPng.dylib<br>
        0x91b9b000 - 0x91b9dfff libRadiance.dylib /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.fra mework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ImageIO.framework/Ver sions/A/Resources/libRadiance.dylib<br>
        0x91b9f000 - 0x91b9ffff com.apple.Accelerate 1.2.2 (Accelerate 1.2.2) /System/Library/Frameworks/Accelerate.framework/Ve rsions/A/Accelerate<br>
        0x91ba1000 - 0x91c2bfff com.apple.vImage 2.4 /System/Library/Frameworks/Accelerate.framework/Ve rsions/A/Frameworks/vImage.framework/Versions/A/vI mage<br>
        0x91c32000 - 0x91c32fff com.apple.Accelerate.vecLib 3.2.2 (vecLib 3.2.2) /System/Library/Frameworks/Accelerate.framework/Ve rsions/A/Frameworks/vecLib.framework/Versions/A/ve cLib<br>
        0x91c34000 - 0x91c79fff libvMisc.dylib /System/Library/Frameworks/Accelerate.framework/Ve rsions/A/Frameworks/vecLib.framework/Versions/A/li bvMisc.dylib<br>
        0x91c81000 - 0x91ca6fff libvDSP.dylib /System/Library/Frameworks/Accelerate.framework/Ve rsions/A/Frameworks/vecLib.framework/Versions/A/li bvDSP.dylib<br>
        0x91cad000 - 0x92230fff libBLAS.dylib /System/Library/Frameworks/Accelerate.framework/Ve rsions/A/Frameworks/vecLib.framework/Versions/A/li bBLAS.dylib<br>
        0x9226d000 - 0x9261ffff libLAPACK.dylib /System/Library/Frameworks/Accelerate.framework/Ve rsions/A/Frameworks/vecLib.framework/Versions/A/li bLAPACK.dylib<br>
        0x9264c000 - 0x926d0fff com.apple.DesktopServices 1.3.4 /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/DesktopServicesP riv.framework/Versions/A/DesktopServicesPriv<br>
        0x9270c000 - 0x9293efff com.apple.Foundation 6.4.6 (567.27) /System/Library/Frameworks/Foundation.framework/Ve rsions/C/Foundation<br>
        0x92a4a000 - 0x92b28fff libxml2.2.dylib /usr/lib/libxml2.2.dylib<br>
        0x92b45000 - 0x92c32fff libiconv.2.dylib /usr/lib/libiconv.2.dylib<br>
        0x92c42000 - 0x92c59fff libGL.dylib /System/Library/Frameworks/OpenGL.framework/Versio ns/A/Libraries/libGL.dylib<br>
        0x92c64000 - 0x92cbbfff libGLU.dylib /System/Library/Frameworks/OpenGL.framework/Versio ns/A/Libraries/libGLU.dylib<br>
        0x92ccf000 - 0x92ccffff com.apple.Carbon 10.4 (???) /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versio ns/A/Carbon<br>
        0x92cd1000 - 0x92ce1fff com.apple.ImageCapture 3.0.4 /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versio ns/A/Frameworks/ImageCapture.framework/Versions/A/ ImageCapture<br>
        0x92cef000 - 0x92cf7fff com.apple.speech.recognition.framework 3.5 /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versio ns/A/Frameworks/SpeechRecognition.framework/Versio ns/A/SpeechRecognition<br>
        0x92cfd000 - 0x92d02fff com.apple.securityhi 2.0.1 (24742) /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versio ns/A/Frameworks/SecurityHI.framework/Versions/A/Se curityHI<br>
        0x92d08000 - 0x92d99fff com.apple.ink.framework 101.2.1 (71) /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versio ns/A/Frameworks/Ink.framework/Versions/A/Ink<br>
        0x92dad000 - 0x92db0fff com.apple.help 1.0.3 (32.1) /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versio ns/A/Frameworks/Help.framework/Versions/A/Help<br>
        0x92db3000 - 0x92dd0fff com.apple.openscripting 1.2.5 (???) /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versio ns/A/Frameworks/OpenScripting.framework/Versions/A /OpenScripting<br>
        0x92de0000 - 0x92de6fff com.apple.print.framework.Print 5.1 (192.3) /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versio ns/A/Frameworks/Print.framework/Versions/A/Print<b r>
        0x92dec000 - 0x92e4ffff com.apple.htmlrendering 66.1 (1.1.3) /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versio ns/A/Frameworks/HTMLRendering.framework/Versions/A /HTMLRendering<br>
        0x92e73000 - 0x92eb4fff com.apple.NavigationServices 3.4.4 (3.4.3) /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versio ns/A/Frameworks/NavigationServices.framework/Versi ons/A/NavigationServices<br>
        0x92edb000 - 0x92ee8fff com.apple.audio.SoundManager 3.9.1 /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versio ns/A/Frameworks/CarbonSound.framework/Versions/A/C arbonSound<br>
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Re:PLZ HLP K THX (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15895671)

I see the problem - you're using a Mac. Ditch it, they're crap.

Alleged plot (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15895648)

In the UK at least, nobody's even been charged with anything yet. What effect this has on anyone's opinion on wiretapping will probably be to some degree affected by whether it turns out that there ever was a plot. We don't really have anything to go on yet except extremely vague allegations.

Next? (3, Insightful)

spikestabber (644578) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895652)

So what will happen when the terrorists all begin using strong SSL chat sessions and avoid unencrypted communications entirely?

Re:Next? (1)

spikestabber (644578) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895659)

They could of used Skype PC to PC sessions and still be undetected, but sssssh, we shouldn't be giving them any ideas. Thankfully these terrorists are technically illiterate.

Re:Next? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15895750)

Could they OF?

Re:Next? (1)

NightRain (144349) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895979)

Ssh [openssh.com] yourself. You're the one giving them ideas ;)

Re:Next? (1)

mobby_6kl (668092) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895665)

That's simple. Anyone using strong encryption is automatically sent to a det^H^H^Hhappy camp.

Re:Next? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15896221)

That's nonsense. Why, I use encrypted chat all the time and #$K8eJ8E*#$W#$O*&NO CARRIER

Re:Next? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15895703)

Then, when you try to board a plane, every single storage device on you will be copied in its entirety, and you'll have to surrender all your passwords (type them in in front of the security officer, to show them that they're safe).

Re:Next? (1)

FLEB (312391) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895863)

Sounds like a job for TrueCrypt's "plausable deniability" features.

Re:Next? (1)

Sloppy (14984) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896124)

That sounds like a good way to keep terrorists from reading their email while on planes. I feel safer already.

Don't assume perfection (5, Insightful)

ChePibe (882378) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895879)

Clearly, if any group were to use perfect tradecraft and communications, it would be much more difficult - if not impossible - to catch.

But perfection doesn't come easily. Look at how many CIA, KGB, MI6, DGSE and other intelligence agencies' officers have been caught because of screw-ups. These are people trained for long period of time - often years - to accomplish their jobs, yet even among their ranks screw-ups occur.

Terrorists, such as those caught in the UK, don't have such training. While they use many sophisticated (and many simple) means to avoid detection, they often lack the discipline to use them all the time and, in the case of Al Qaeda, often operate in such large groups as to make security hap hazard at best.

Consider Thursday's group and Al Qaeda's MO. A group that size had probably been in the planning and recruitment phase for several months if not several years. A group of that size needed large amounts (by terrorist standards) of outside funding, training, and support. They needed to move lots of information, stay in contact with each other, all while maintaining an outward appearance of normalcy (which they also apparently failed at, as a human intelligence source played a major part in busting the plot as well). A group of 24 - some say as big as 50 - quickly becomes unwieldy, and establishing perfect discipline amongst its often panicked members can be quite difficult.

Al Qaeda's biggest strength, and its biggest weakness, is the size of its attacks. The 9/11 attack was astounding, winning the group recognition worldwide, but it required a very large group to plan and execute. If the planned airline bombings had taken place, the result would have been perhaps equally astounding, but Al Qaeda's eyes are much bigger than its stomach - if it had targeted only one, perhaps two airliners and kept the groups small, tight, and using foreigners instead of UK citizens, it probably could have pulled it off. Look at the "shoe bomber" - he was stopped only by passengers, and his plot was unknown to counter-terrorist officials beforehand. If he'd had the smarts to try and pull it off in the airplane's bathroom, one would assume he'd have been much more successful.

Even if the group keeps 95% of its communications perfectly secure, that 5% slip can be enough to get them. Using that pre-paid cell too many times, forgetting to encrypt a chat just once, slipping up and paying with a credit card, not properly casing a facility, failing to use proper cut-outs to wire cash, etc. Insecure communications are far more efficient and, when one is panicked or when one becomes too confident, are often opted for, which is the key to getting people. By keeping the pressure up and making these groups feel nervous, most are bound to screw up in one way or another, helping them get caught.

While perfectly secure means of communication may well exist, the human element is what will always screw it up. Think about it this way - how easy is it to commit a "perfect murder", one that that leaves you with practically no chance of getting caught? If properly planned, not too hard, right? Yet most murderers are eventually caught. Why? They get lazy. They screw up. All too often it is the stupidity, poor planning, lack of discipline, panic, or overconfidence that gets them caught. Terrorists - who generally operate in sizable groups - often fall to the same problems.

no (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15896208)

most murderers are caught because most murders are unplanned and most victims are family members of the murderer. those who do plan their murders and who kill strangers - hitmen, serial killers - usually remain free for many years, if they are ever caught.

Re:Don't assume perfection (1)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896402)

Look at the "shoe bomber" - he was stopped only by passengers, and his plot was unknown to counter-terrorist officials beforehand. If he'd had the smarts to try and pull it off in the airplane's bathroom, one would assume he'd have been much more successful.

Yeah. What the fuck? Even a total idiot would have known to go somewhere isolated in order to ignite his shoes. The only thing I figure is that maybe the explosive power of his shoes was too small to do much damage unless it was in the right spot to ignite the fuel in the tanks and that spot was not in a bathroom. Even then, would it have been too hard to buy up all the seats in the general area of the tanks so he could have blown up his shoes unmolested.

Until you made that post, I'd kinda bought the party line on Richard Reid. But now I am wondering if he was meant to get get caught.

you (and others) assume to much (1)

WindBourne (631190) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896180)

First, the us gov. dropped the case on PGP back in the early 90s. They dropped it when the NSA stepped into the case and told the FTC to drop it. After pulling their lawyers into a backroom, the lawyers came back and dropped the case. Read into it what you will

Second, you seem to assume that the gov. can only look at bit at a time.

Finally, if they encrypt everything, that means the feds can simply find out which traffic to examine quickly. IOW, it is now flagged as to where to look. If you are looking for a needle in a haystack, do you prefer to have the haystack to double the haystack every month, or is it better to be able to limit where you need to search?

Civil rights of 400-500 million violated... (1, Insightful)

Evro (18923) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895658)

... and so far one legitimate, serious attack has been prevented. The same attack could likely have been prevented by forcing everyone to check all luggage and allow no carry-ons.

As for governments "warming up" to wiretapping... is it even the case anywhere in the world that the government is reluctant to infringe on the rights of its populace? People don't care anymore, they're fearful and spineless, and are more than willing to give up their rights these days.

Re:Civil rights of 400-500 million violated... (1)

nbannerman (974715) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895681)

People don't care anymore, they're fearful and spineless, and are more than willing to give up their rights these days.

I'm trying, in my own way, to do something about this. I talk to friends and family. I talk to people at work. I tell them, as best I can, why we need to hold onto our freedom. I'm passionate about living, and I do everything I can. I write to my MP. I engage people in debates to try and raise awareness of the issues at hand.

And after 4 years, I've come to the same conclusion as you. People just don't care, and I'm not sure what I can do about it. I feel an Ask Slashdot coming on...

Re:Civil rights of 400-500 million violated... (1)

kfg (145172) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895840)

. . . I'm not sure what I can do about it.

Fasten your seatbelt. It's going to be a bumpy ride.

KFG

Re:Civil rights of 400-500 million violated... (1)

mobby_6kl (668092) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895684)

>and so far one legitimate, serious attack has been prevented.

So far, no one's been charged or convicted in this case. Who knows, maybe they were just discussing their trip to Disneyland. They were supposedly going to use a soft drink bottle for explosives, so a couple of plastic bottles and a camera is probably the only evidence there is.

Re:Civil rights of 400-500 million violated... (2, Insightful)

Tweekster (949766) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895759)

Um wiretapping isnt new...

It is an old tactic that is widely accepted as a legit form of investigation.

Re:Civil rights of 400-500 million violated... (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15895892)

... and so far one legitimate, serious attack has been prevented.

There is no evidence that any legitimate attack has been prevented by illegal wiretapping. In fact, the A.P. article slashdot links to says: "British authorities have released little information about the brothers, or the course of their investigation into the alleged terror plot in general." But it should be noted that the two brothers were in different countries during the course of the investigation and so no parallels can be drawn to the illegal domestic spying the Bush administration is doing in the United States (and started doing prior to 9/11, meaning terrorism has never been the reason behind the illegal domestic spying in the United States).

Do you feel safer because the domestic threat index has been raised to red?

Do you feel safer because you can't bring toothpaste on an airliner?

Do you feel safer because George Bush stopped pursuing Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and instead chose to invade another country, Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9/11?

If you answered yes to any of the above, you are a fool.

Re:Civil rights of 400-500 million violated... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15896002)

Do you feel safer because the domestic threat index has been raised to red?

Yes, red is a nice warm color and its used by Republicuns and communists.

Do you feel safer because you can't bring toothpaste on an airliner?

Yes, theres no chance of slipping on toothpaste that might have fallen out of someones hand luggage.

Do you feel safer because George Bush stopped pursuing Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and instead chose to invade another country, Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9/11?

Yes, just in case Al_queda were thinking about hiding in Iraq, now they cant. Well, maybe in some parts, the parts still not safe.. but not everywhere... i can be sure theres no Al-Queda members hiding at the Iraqi Oil Ministry.

Re:Civil rights of 400-500 million violated... (4, Interesting)

aslate (675607) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895972)

Civil rights of 400-500 million violated...
Well, the UK has a population of 60 million, so you're going a tad OTT.

and so far one legitimate, serious attack has been prevented.
So is there some sort of quota that you want? We must stop at least one serious terrorist attack every two months before it's justified action?

The same attack could likely have been prevented by forcing everyone to check all luggage and allow no carry-ons.
Ah, so you complain about civil rights being eroded, but you'd have no problem if before 9/11 they'd have said: "Right, you're not allowed hand luggage except the bare minimum, that's passport, tickets and wallet." People would go nuts and ask why it's justified, wonder why they can't take their Gameboy, MP3 player or even a book onboard that really fun 7 hour transatlantic flight. Screw business class and business customers having the ability to work on the move, by-bye laptop, mobile phone, dictaphone and probably even pens or pencils.

As much as i dissapprove of the idea of only reacting to something after it's happened, if you'd even have suggested the security measures now 10 years ago, you'd be laughed out for costing the industry millions.

I'm sorry, but I don't see a difference.. (2, Interesting)

plasmacutter (901737) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896371)

Civil rights of 400-500 million violated...

Well, the UK has a population of 60 million, so you're going a tad OTT.

I'm sorry but I don't see a functional difference between violating the rights of 60 million to catch one guilty person vs the rights of 500 million.

The premise of the constitutions of western worlds is supposed to be innocent until provent guilty. This means the government should not be authorized to systematically invade the privacy of the populus at large with no probable cause in the hope of catching them stepping out of the line of their many many obscure laws.

You know there are some really obscure laws on the US books which can still be used to imprison people and deprive them of their voting rights by making them felons.
Even if theyre not felony violations you can still make their life a living hell by datamining them for violations of stupid laws.

How long is it until someone who said something wrong about the current ruling party flicks boogers into the wind or puts an ice cream cone in their pocket in alabama [fedtrek.com]

here are your alternatives (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15896243)

> The same attack could likely have been prevented by forcing everyone to check all luggage and allow no carry-ons.

No, it couldn't. Because if the security restrictions had been different, the plot devised around them would have been different: duh.

The only way we successfully stop terrorist attacks is by knowing about them before they happen. Sometimes this means targeted wiretaps. Sometimes it means infiltration or informers. I'm not defending wiretaps ethically, legally or technically, I'm just saying. The metal detectors, they do nothing.

Illegal spying: Britain and U.S. governments (2, Interesting)

Futurepower(R) (558542) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895672)

On the Charlie Rose show last night, an ABC newscaster said that the U.S. and British governments spy on each other's citizens, doing things that would be illegal in their home countries, and share that information with each other.

It should be mentioned that the U.S. and British governments have been killing Arabs and interfering with Arab governments for more than 40 years, and that's what started the terrorism. See this very brief summary: History surrounding the U.S. wars with Iraq: Four short stories [futurepower.org] . They did this to increase oil and other profits, the same as now.

--
Will U.S. government violence end 3,000 years of violence in the Middle East? Or, increase it?

Re:Illegal spying: Britain and U.S. governments (4, Insightful)

brennz (715237) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895731)

The West and Islam never fought before oil was discovered in the Middle East?

Re:Illegal spying: Britain and U.S. governments (1)

lawpoop (604919) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895936)

Certainly, no civilization in the *Americas* ever projected force in the middle east before oil was discovered there.

Re:Illegal spying: Britain and U.S. governments (2, Informative)

sumdumass (711423) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895956)

Thomas jefferson sent troops to defeat countries in the middle east. Thats was before the oil was exploited? the first naval battle that included american marines was tripoli. Hence the song...

Re:Illegal spying: Britain and U.S. governments (5, Informative)

kfg (145172) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896029)

Thomas jefferson sent troops to defeat countries in the middle east.

Tripoli is no more the Middle East than is Rome or Berlin. Arab does not equal Middle East. Arab includes much of North Africa, including areas rather west of Portugal, once included most of Iberia and much of west Africa (hence Swahili). Arab does not include Iran.

KFG

Re:Illegal spying: Britain and U.S. governments (2, Funny)

Xtravar (725372) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896225)

Duh. Native Americans did not have the technology to kill arabs.

However, I'm sure that in a different universe, there are Islamic extremists who are suicide bombing canoes and tipis, and deerskin pouches being checked for explosive glass beads. Also, intercontinental ballistic arrowheads (ICBAs) aimed at Baghdad and a hell of a lot of turban trophies with scalp attached...

Re:Illegal spying: Britain and U.S. governments (1)

kfg (145172) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895976)

You have to remember that in the US 20 years equals forever, thus "more than 40 years" equals more than twice forever, a rather abstract concept to deal with within a historical context.

Unless, of course, we're dealing with France. In that case only things that happened for a few years more than 60 years ago are remembered, through a glass darkly. "Lafayette, we are here." Wazzat supposed to mean?

Ah well, dozzint matter, it's prehistoric anyway.

KFG

Re:Illegal spying: Britain and U.S. governments (2, Interesting)

molo (94384) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896063)

Never heard of the Crusades then? The current battles are being branded as the "modern crusades" by people looking to drum up outrage. Also don't forget the Ottoman empire's invasion of Vienna, and the Umayyad dynasty's conquering of Spain. This all hapenned well before the 1850s discovery of producing kerosene from petroleum.

-molo

Re:Illegal spying: Britain and U.S. governments (1)

malsdavis (542216) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896246)

I always think it's amazing that less than 100 years ago, Iraq was actually owned by Britain.

I found a link to a video of the show: (2, Informative)

Futurepower(R) (558542) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895736)

I found a link to a video of the show: Charlie Rose - Brian Ross / Syria's role in the Mid-East / YouTube co-founders [google.com] .

During the show Brian Ross of ABC said both governments break the laws of the other, and share the information.

They've been doing that for years, showing zero respect for the law and for the lawmakers. One of the things they have been doing is killing Arabs to increase oil profits.

Re:I found a link to a video of the show: (1)

sumdumass (711423) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895974)

increase oil profits for who? the arabs? they own the oil, lease the fields out, control production a nd recieve the $60 per barrol or what ever the going rate is.

Re:I found a link to a video of the show: (1)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896169)

increase oil profits for who? the arabs? they own the oil, lease the fields out, control production a nd recieve the $60 per barrol or what ever the going rate is.

You got everything right except for the last part. In plenty of cases they've signed agreements for fixed prices or for fixed percentages based on the cost to extract. So in the later case, they might only get 10% of the market price. Back when oil was $20/barrel that $2 might have been all the profit there was after all costs. But at $60/barrel, costs are still about the same, but now the oil company pockets $36/barrel of profit vs the pennies they were making before.

See Shell's recent profit announcement of over $26B for the last year. That's profit, not revenues and is the largest annual profit ever earned by any european company so far and is due primarily to sales of oil, not gas.

Re:Illegal spying: Britain and U.S. governments (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15895738)

It should be mentioned that the U.S. and British governments have been killing Arabs and interfering with Arab governments for more than 40 years, and that's what started the terrorism.

And not the French, the Russians, the Chinese? In particular, have a look at France's brutal colonial record in the Arab world.

Nice try though. The world's terrorism problems are not the exclusive fault of the US and the UK.

Re:Illegal spying: Britain and U.S. governments (2, Interesting)

Tweekster (949766) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895767)

Your sig says it all... but the answer is, the US will be immaterial to a violent culture with a long history of extremism.

To quote syriana: We think a hundred years ago you were living out here in tents in the desert chopping each others head's off, and that's exactly where you're going to be in another hundred.

Re:Illegal spying: Britain and U.S. governments (1)

payndz (589033) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895773)

On the Charlie Rose show last night, an ABC newscaster said that the U.S. and British governments spy on each other's citizens, doing things that would be illegal in their home countries, and share that information with each other.

That's the UKUSA programme (which despite the name also includes Australia and New Zealand), and it's been going on for decades. Any intercepts on US citizens that NSA isn't legally allowed to obtain directly, they get from GCHQ in England under the terms of UKUSA's intelligence sharing. GCHQ has no legal limits on what it can monitor on UK citizens in their own country, incidentally, so the British government basically gives whatever it finds to NSA without demanding anything in return. Another example of the poodle relationship.

Sorry the U.S. wasnt around in 1050 (4, Insightful)

Crashmarik (635988) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895777)

But thank you for the canned soundbite about how the west is responsible for the crappy condition of the avg arabs life. Somehow a less biased person might look at the middle east and think that their problems stem from lousy corrupt governments that have a willingness to kill their own citizens, the subsitution of religous precepts for sane government policy and a willingness to blame everyone else in the world for their own problems.

Hope your hairshirt fits well.

Yeah, it's called 'ECHELON'... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15895903)

...and it's been going on for decades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON/ [wikipedia.org]

Wireless Tapping (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15895677)

Wireless Tapping is so much easier, no need to worry about the cord wrapping around and causing you to fall on your face.

I still can't find my pnone...

Nonsense (1)

fredrated (639554) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895682)

They were turned in by a suspicious fellow Muslim, that's when the wiretapping started. Wiretapping did NOT discover this plot.

Re:Nonsense (1)

Epsillon (608775) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895880)

I'm setting up an agnostic community. Then the reporters will be able to disambiguate us from the other religions and we can join in this warfest the others seem to be having, if one is to believe the news. Anyone up for it? Meetings the third Tuesday of every month at the phone box in Park Lane. Since we will probably all fit into it, I also suggest we go the whole hog and claim minority status. God/Allah/Bhudda knows what we're going to use as an excuse to become extreme agnostics, but I'm sure we'll find something. Bring your own woad.

Whether we're black, brown, pink, yellow or sky-blue, seihk, bhuddist, atheist, christian, muslim, hindi, jewish, baha'i or hari-bloody-krishna, we're bleedin' British. The tip-off came from a citizen of this country whose moral courage overrode the dogma of extremists, if what I'm reading is true. I don't care whether he/she was a muslim or not; there are probably agnostics that I wouldn't bother to urinate on if they were on fire. What matters is that he or she had the courage to protect the rest of us. And thank his or her deity for that.

@fredrated: This wasn't a rant at you or your comment. It's aimed squarely at the media who, despite protestations of objectivity, continue to refer to sections of our citizenry as "the foobar community" (page 2 of TFA), thereby reinforcing the view of the bigoted minority that said communities are in some way inferior citizens and that it is surprising when they act with the greater good of whatever country in which they live in mind. In other words, political correctness gone mad. I wonder if the next murder report on the Beeb will contain the words "christian community"? No, I doubt it, too.

I'm also a member of the "normally stay indoors at a computer console, take two minutes to turn from blue to red when I do emerge then hide from the sun and read Slashdot" community. Perhaps they have a point...

Sure (5, Insightful)

wetfeetl33t (935949) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895685)

It is nice to know that wiretaps have been useful in doing this, but the question has never been whether wiretaps should be used to counter terrorism. The issue is whether or not illegal wiretaps should be used!

Re:Sure (4, Insightful)

Pharmboy (216950) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895717)

You make a valid, and somewhat rare point. The key arguement is whether the wiretaps are legal or not. It is difficult for anyone to say "wiretaps should always be illegal" with a straight face unless they have no historical perspective or just insane.

The government is GOING to do wiretaps, the key is enforcing the law and making them prove they are necessary before they do them, and yes, very often, they ARE necessary. People would do better to focus on the legal/illegal aspects instead of just saying "all wiretaps are bad". Taking that stance makes someone look like a whacko, and no one will pay attention to them.

A world where NO wiretaps are allowed is no better than a world where wiretaps go unchecked. Just a different brand of bad.

MOD PARENT UP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15895784)

And gp too

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it odd (1)

transporter_ii (986545) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895889)

That all was quite on the western front, and all of the sudden the domestic wire tapping issue & AT&T blows up in their faces...and right in the middle of it they bust a bunch of Jamaican pot heads in Florida for being terrorist. And then all of the sudden, they start busting a few more "cells," and they always tag on, "and they were caught by monitoring the Internet or by wire tapping." ...as if it is some sort of subtle advertising campaign. I mean, really, in any other type of incident, they probably wouldn't even release how they were caught for months, if at all (yeah, why not tip off the terrorist to quit using the Net). But it is almost as if we are watching some infomericals from some PR firm, not to scare the "terrorist," but to condition us.

Transporter_ii

Wiretaps Are Not New (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15895692)

I like how this slashdot summary makes it look like wiretaps have never existed before this 8/10 plot.

The fact is wiretapping to capture terror suspects and other evildoers has been going on for as long as phone lines have been around.

I commend the authorities for using every tool at their disposal to capture those dastardly plotters who want to murder innocent people. This seems all legit to me.

Wait... what? (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15895693)

  • First off, the arrests, as have been widely reported, originally began as the result of a tip-off from within the British Muslim community [google.com] .
  • The investigation had already been ongoing for quite a long time at the point at which the phone call, which gets only a brief mention in the article there, was intercepted by a wiretap. What this article tells us is that sometimes police use wiretaps when investigating suspects. We already knew that.
  • "More comfortable with wiretapping"? Wiretapping has been used by law enforcement for decades, and nobody really has a problem with this. What people have a problem with are:
    1. Indiscriminate "blanket" wiretapping
    2. Wiretapping without warrants or judicial safeguards.
    Neither of these things were necessary at any level of the U.K. investigation there; they knew who to tap ahead of time, and they were in a position to go ahead and follow correct procedures for wiretapping such as obtaining warrants. The current U.K. case in fact weakens the case for these new, neoconservative policies, since the suspects here were caught through good old fashioned police work, not through crazy new vague police powers where the police tap whoever they want whenever they feel like it.

Only People I don't want wiretapping (0, Flamebait)

jrmcferren (935335) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895706)

The only people I don't want wiretapping me are:
RIAA
MPAA
The Software Companies
Anyone that makes waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy too much money on content

The Government should be watching to see what could be going on in the world of terrorism.

To review it is ok to wiretap to prevent killing of many people, but not to enforce everyday laws like copyright, shoplifting (I don't do that shit), and anything that does not prevent another 9/11.

This will probably be modded incorectly (troll/flamebait)

Re:Only People I don't want wiretapping (1, Offtopic)

Ant P. (974313) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895752)

I agree, there should be a "-1, Head too far up ass" mod for that very post.

Re:Only People I don't want wiretapping (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15896042)

I also don't want the government wiretaping the opposing political party, or any members of that party.

The question is not "Is wire tapping effective?" (2, Interesting)

RingDev (879105) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895724)

The question is, "Is unregulated wire tapping of citizens with out oversight more effective than regulated wire tapping with oversight and a 24 hour grace period?"

I don't think anyone will argue that wiretapping is bad. But many will argue that wiretapping with out oversight will quickly lead to an abuse of power.

-Rick

This won't answer that question. (1)

twitter (104583) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896007)

The question is, "Is unregulated wire tapping of citizens with out oversight more effective than regulated wire tapping with oversight and a 24 hour grace period?"

This bust came from an informant not wire tapping. Someone who knew the suspects did the right thing and turned them in before they could kill innocent people. Wire tapping provided details, but it was not the out of control tap everyone without rule of law tapping big brother types advocate. Sooner or later the wiretap freaks will score a hit, but this is not it.

I don't know about a grace period. Once you have a warrent there is no further need for delay. Part of the linked article was US speculation on why they waited so long to nab the bad guys and how much risk that caused.

Re:This won't answer that question. (1)

RingDev (879105) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896298)

The 24 grace period is for the PISA court. The NSA/bush could(can) put a wire tap on anyone in the US. They would then have 24 hours to present evidence to the PISA court to show that the wire tap was warrented, at which time, the PISA court would issue a warrent. Any evidence gathered in the 24 hour grace period could be used in the warrent hearing.

This system, albeit a bit scarey, at least had oversite from the judicial branch, and a review process from the senate. The Bush administraton decided that there was to much of a delay in the process though (???) and so they needed a stream lined process. So Bush decided it would be legal for them to do so. The thing that I fail to see is how Bush's wire tap program improves the response time on wire taps, since they didn't need to wait for a warrent under the PISA system anyway.

-Rick

Re:The question is not "Is wire tapping effective? (1)

eieio2u2 (994932) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896143)

The government would have a terribly difficult time indeed if everyone that used a telephone made it a point of sticking it to 'em by always using key phrases such as plotting and bombing of citizens... in every conversation.

Re:The question is not "Is wire tapping effective? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15896146)

an abuse of power

The Left's apparent definition of 'abuse of power' appears to be anything that does not conform with the Left. Since reality itself fails to conform (an obviously subjective observation,) any governance whatsoever is effectively an 'abuse of power.' Thus, most of us no longer ascribe an significance to the 'abuse of power' characterization. It's just so much more yada yada that slips past the eyes and ears with no effect. It doesn't shock or evoke thought; just another prattling screecher in the distance, easily and usefully dismissed.

Go on now, tell me how this indifference to your claims has parallels with some former fascist regime. Yada yada.

Re:The question is not "Is wire tapping effective? (1)

RingDev (879105) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896315)

Huh? I have no idea what your babbling about. I am more liberal than my family, and more conservative than my friends. My veiws vary from topic to topic but I almost invariably side with Personal and States rights.

In any case, by "abuse of power" I mean using the powers granted by Bush's term in office for political gain. As in, wire tapping competing political party members, journalist, social acquintances, etc. Sure, we can be told "that will never happen", but when the only people reviewing the system are the people who use the system, we have no way of knowing for sure.

-Rick

how is it justified? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15895728)

We have real problems that could be solved with the money wasted on this terror bullshit.

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/ [crimestatistics.org.uk]

Despite increased surveillance, violent crime is soaring yet our goverments idea of punishment is handing out an ASBO. Most ineffectual government 'evar', only appear to be in power to lay the framework for a totalitarian regime.

Government is always comfortable with wiretapping (1)

crush (19364) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895741)

Whether or not the people are comfortable is hard to say. We'll see if this latest "terror plot" is all bullshit or has any basis in reality in a year or two. At least the British police didn't murder any Brazilian plumbers this time.

I don't think any reasonable person would object to a panel of judges being presented with serious evidence by a police/security investigation team and issuing a warrant that says it's reasonable to investigate further on that basis. That bar of "reasonable" should be set very high though and it's pretty obvious that the British police and judicial system is deeply corrupt and willing to forge evidence (see all the long history of that with the trials of the Birmingham Six, Guildford Four etc)

In reality, there isn't much you can do against terrorists even with an over-arching, nanny-state that oversees all aspects of life. The terrorists just get more and more cautious and the atrocities committed by the state in attempting to suppress them creates yet more polarised extermists. The only way to deal with it is to address the root causes: e.g. get out of their countries and stop killing their families and co-religionists. Pretty easy.

Re:Government is always comfortable with wiretappi (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895839)

At least the British police didn't murder any Brazilian plumbers this time.

Its too soon for that. We are not into the post attack panic yet.

Re:Government is always comfortable with wiretappi (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15896168)

Actually, the atrocities committed by the state in attempting to suppress its enemies are quite effective, at least for a time, as the history of communist countries clearly shows. One simple example is that in communist Moscow or Leningrad you wouldn't want to raid the bus without valid ticket, as the other passengers would surely report you to the controller.

Re:Government is always comfortable with wiretappi (1)

crush (19364) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896264)

Terrorism is a bit different. The ideological motivation makes it harder to suppress based on fear. Even if the terrorists are afraid they still take action. As regards the simple criminality of cheating on bus fares, maybe it's effective, same as NYC's "broken windows" policies, but even under total communism there were still criminals.

Re:Government is always comfortable with wiretappi (1)

Redlazer (786403) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896209)

Thats a very narrow way of looking at things.

Granted, us being in their countries doesnt make them very happy, but it is not the root cause of te terrorist attacks. The real issue here is that it is part of there culture, their religion, that it is OK to do these things. They are rewarded by death. They are rewarded by blindly following their religion - which all the popular religions do - but it is a major part of their culture to do these things. It is not a part of the American, Canadian, or English cultures to be religious. It is an option, and there are many sub-cultures that support/are focused on religion, but it is not the main focus of the government, or the governments people.

Someone else already said this as well - but im going to say it again becasue they are right.

The governments are corrupted, very corrupted, and they cannot establish one that is not. Whether or not the US is the best country to fix that is irellevant - it needed to be done.

Not only that, but you can also see here the relevancy of seperation of church and state. It works, people; and almost all arab countries do not have this. And if they do, they do not follow it.

I know im going to regret saying this, but the problem of terrorism is not entirely the US/UK's fault. It is the government and important religious people twisting the words of their religion and offering rewards to those who commit atrocities.

Im ready for the negative modders, but people, keep an open mind. You all say you are open minded - but are you really?

-Red

Re:Government is always comfortable with wiretappi (1)

crush (19364) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896280)

us being in their countries doesnt make them very happy, but it is not the root cause of te terrorist attacks Oh come on! All the attacks in Europe have been EXPLICITLY because of it. The 9-11 attacks were EXPLICITLY because of the USA backing up the Saudi state and Israel. So, unless you think they bother to take terrorist action and at the same time lie about why they're doing it you should accept that the stated motivation is indeed the motivation. Otherwise you get into completely speculative psychologising about how if only Osama had got more nipple when he was a kid then he wouldn't be acting out. The "clash of civilisations" stuff is equally unconvincing. We wouldn't be clashign with them if we weren't in their countries or they in ours. As soon as the Islamic hordes start rolling their tanks across the oceans then I'll buy the threat, otherwise it's clear that they're reacting to the presence of our armies and proxy armies. (PS why the lame appeal to the mods? let whatever happens happen!)

Re:Government is always comfortable with wiretappi (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15896397)

The real issue here is that it is part of there culture, their religion, that it is OK to do these things. They are rewarded by death.

You are talking about the United States, right? Because the real irony here is that you have completely bought into the double standard (a small group does evil in another country thus the entire culture is to blame) that, in spite of your call for an open mind, allows the murder of war to take place in our name.

I do wish you were right about the separation of church and state in the United States. We would not be having the problems we have today.

We've had wiretapping for a long time (3, Insightful)

lawpoop (604919) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895763)

We've had wiretapping for a long time, and most people are comfortable with it. Here in the US, you can get a warrant from a judge for wiretapping a US citizen, and we have a special court called FISA specifically for issuing warrants for international type wiretaps. It's routine and it happens *all the time*.

However, as I understand, wiretapping is *not* what tipped off British officials to the group who were going to carry out this plot. It was a friend/relative of one of the plotters who tipped of the police. Then, I'm guessing, the police went and got a warrant to tap this guy's phone, and worked thier way through the group, getting more warrants and taps, until they understood the group structure and their goals.

However, what I am extremely uncomfortable with is the unaccountable and warrantless comprehensive wiretapping of all phone calls in the US. If it is not illegal in the specific wording of the law, it certainly goes against the spirit of the right to privacy and the presumption of innocence. This is very scary. Totalitarian governments love keeping records and tabs on everyone so they can harrass and dissapear them whenever some person starts speaking up.

I'm not saying that Bush is a facist, but think about it -- would you trust Hillary Clinton ;) or whoever the next president is with such a massive, ongoing surveillance database?

Re:We've had wiretapping for a long time (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15896097)

You're right, Hillary is a piece of reptilian trash.

Here's the deal (3, Insightful)

77Punker (673758) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895770)

I've never seen a terrorist. To me, terrorists exist on television. What I have experienced are authority figures abusing power. Until terrorists stop hanging out with Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny and end up near me, I don't care how dangerous they are.

I'm more scared of the cops, even though I'm not a criminal.

Re:Here's the deal (1)

Phanatic1a (413374) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895810)

I've never seen a water molecule, but I still shower in the morning.

Re:Here's the deal (1)

77Punker (673758) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895824)

I think you're misunderstanding me. Authority figures pose a far greater threat to me than any terrorists do. Because of that, I would rather have the authorities restrained than the terrorists.

Re:Here's the deal (1)

gbjbaanb (229885) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895990)

I suppose its a matter of importance, while the authorities have a greater level of involvement in your day to day life, the worst they will do it listen to you say naughty things to your girlfriend. On the other hand, while terrorists generally have no involvement in your daily life, if (or when) they do you'll be blown into little pieces.

Cue dodgy analogy: its like making backups - I do it every day and thing 'why bother, my HDD never failed', but the one day my PC suffers catastrophic hardware failure, I'll be glad of them :-)

Re:Here's the deal (1)

despisethesun (880261) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896046)

the worst they will do it listen to you say naughty things to your girlfriend.

I'm sure that's the only thing the KGB were listening for when they were tapping phones.

You're far too trusting of your government. Sure, we're all grateful when wiretapping prevents someone from killing a bunch of people, but the possibility of a power-mad government is far more dangerous and far more likely. What keeps Western democracies from becoming fascist states are the limits placed on the government's power and the dilligence of the people to ensure the government does not overstep those bounds. If you're willing to let the government walk all over those limits, then, to use a cliche, the terrorists have already won.

Re:Here's the deal (1)

77Punker (673758) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896075)

My favorite quote regarding the whole search without a warrant issue comes from a video game, Deus Ex. It goes something like this:

"When due process is ignored, we really do live in a world of terror."

Re:Here's the deal (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15895909)

How many murderers have you seen? How many rapists?
I thought so. Does that mean they don't exist, and only made up boogeymen by the authorities? Of course not.
Now that I've destroyed your idiotic nonsense, please grow the fuck up.

Re:Here's the deal (1)

77Punker (673758) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895935)

Allow me to clarify, troll: Terrorists exist in New York City and London. They will probably exist in Los Angeles one day, too. Wiretapping is a bigger threat to me than any terrorist.

Re:Here's the deal (2, Insightful)

aslate (675607) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896317)

Terrorists do not only exist in NYC and London, although they are popular targets.

I live in London, have done since i was born 18 years ago. I never really lived through the IRA bombings, but we just stumbled through it. The greatest freedom that i feel i've been robbed of due to terrorism at the current time? There's no bloody bins on the Tube, as they were a favourite IRA target. After the 7th July bombings they removed the bins from overground trains for about 2 weeks too.

Since the 7th July London bombings (The biggest single attack on London since the war, and second highest loss of life since Lockerbie) the only restrictions i've noticed? Well, none. Excluding the short term removal of bins and the short term increase in visible policing, the only long-term idea proposed has been to have bomb-scanning equipment on the Tube, an idea that's been deemed unrealistic ever since it was proposed and won't be implemented.

Ever hear of Pan-Am flight 103 [wikipedia.org] which exploded over Lockerbie, Scotland [google.co.uk] . People died in that village (with population of about 4000), did you really think they believed they were a terrorist target in 1988?

Look at the list here [wikipedia.org] to see who was a "target of terrorism" and effectively asked for it:
July 4 2002: An Egyptian gunman opens fire at an El Al ticket counter in Los Angeles International Airport, killing 2 Israelis before being killed himself.
October 23 2002: Moscow theater hostage crisis begins; 120 hostages and 40 terrorists killed in rescue three days later.
July 5 2003: 15 people die and 40 are injured in bomb attacks at a rock festival in Moscow.

Just because it's not affected you yet, doesn't mean it won't and can't. As mentioned in many comments above, wiretapping was only applied after a tip-off from a relative about the group and their intentions.

Re:Here's the deal (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15896176)

I'm more scared of the cops, even though I'm not a criminal.

You should be more scared of driving to work & smoking.

Both are far more likely to cause you harm than cops, criminals or terrorists.

I'm comfortable with it.. (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15895783)

..just get a warrant, keep it in the public record, and hold the government accountable when they screw up, so that they choose their wiretaps carefully. Heck, if you want to err on the side of caution and wiretap first, get the warrant second, I'm fine with that too. Just don't hide what you're doing from the citizens of your country, don't pretend like you're smarter than anybody else.

It's possible to be safe from both terror AND idiot totalitarian governments.

See! See? (0, Flamebait)

Ph33r th3 g(O)at (592622) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895832)

We're using our new police state powers for good, honest! I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing had been staged.

Legal or not? (1)

MuNansen (833037) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895848)

But was this wiretap legal, or was it done with shadowy methods with no regard for proper process? If it's the former, then good for them. If the latter, only then do we need to re-think anything.

Re:Legal or not? (1)

Karma Farmer (595141) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896179)

According to the artcle, it the writetap was done in Pakistan, by Pakistani authorities, as part of a Pakistani investigation.

There is no mention of any UK wiretapping in the article. Hemos got trolled by the submitter.

still no proof (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15895890)

Where is the proof of all this BS? It could just as easily be yet another reichstagg fire type false flag operation. All we have to go on is a few governments words on this stuff, governments that are all obviously pushing totalitarianism. Buttis crap gets repeated verbating by the wire services as "true facts". Proof, let's see it. And how many government agents are inside these alleged cells, maybe directing them, egging them on?

Sorry, this terrorism crap to get more big brother action in place is looking more and more to be mostly government run ops, to mass condition the people. Until they start really *proving* this stuff, in open courts with non anonymous sources run by neutral third parties in the international arena, at best this is just spin doctor crap, like karl rove style dirty tricks action. I don't care how many arabic sounding names they use anymore, they got so many weird inconsistences with all their utterances that there's no way anymore to seperate fact from fiction when their lips are moving. I simply do not trust these governments anymore to tell the truth on anything. They keep coming up with these wild assed conspiracy theories, then all we get is more onerous laws out of it, and a ton of big transnational companies make a lot ore profits. I mean..c'mon now! It's long past rat smelling levels. They have varied internal agendas, economic and political, to push, so labelling everything "terrorist" is a dandy way for them to do anything they want to do. Just follow the headlines, every single stinking time there's bad news for these overlords starts to sneak into the headlines WHAM they trot out some more really dubious crap to divert attention. This is beyond obvious now.

The bad deal? Constant mucking about in the mid east and screwing them people over for the last century WILL result in the "clash of the civilizations" eventually. How much crap are those people suposed to eat from the uk and usa and the completely looney phony "gods will" zionists? Talk about your self fulfilling armageddon prophecies...

Get the fundy loons out of all these various governments, and hammer back the international "war is great for profits!" crowd and MAYBE all the normal people could live in peace.

Are we watching a sublte PR campaign? (5, Insightful)

transporter_ii (986545) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895919)

I find it odd that all was quite on the western front, and all of the sudden the domestic wire tapping issue & AT&T blows up in their faces...and right in the middle of it they bust a bunch of Jamaican pot heads in Florida for being terrorist. And then all of the sudden, they start busting a few more "cells," and they always tag on, "and they were caught by monitoring the Internet or by wire tapping." ...as if it is some sort of subtle advertising campaign. I mean, really, in any other type of incident, they probably wouldn't even release how they were caught for months, if at all (yeah, why not tip off the terrorist to quit using the phones or the Net). But it is almost as if we are watching some infomericals from some PR firm, not to scare the "terrorist," but to condition us and make us pro-monitoring.

Transporter_ii

Re:Are we watching a sublte PR campaign? (1)

kfg (145172) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896230)

. . it is almost as if we are watching some infomericals from some PR firm, not to scare the "terrorist,". . .

Almost as if? The government isn't even ashamed of using PR firms and do it right out in the open.

KFG

Re:Are we watching a sublte PR campaign? (2, Informative)

Karma Farmer (595141) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896347)

and they always tag on, "and they were caught by monitoring the Internet or by wire tapping."
No-one has claimed this group was caught through wiretapping. Hemos accepted a submission that lied about the contents of the article.

*Sigh* wiretapping is not the issue (-1, Flamebait)

MikeRT (947531) | more than 7 years ago | (#15895940)

Wiretapping, when restrained by something like the 4th amendment (which Tony Blair would kill even faster than Dubya if Britain had it), is a good thing. There need to be checks and balances that allow the police to spy on people who a reasonable person with the evidence would conclude is a dangerous criminal. Society cannot function with dangerous criminals having a decisive upper-hand. Fortunately, in America, our founders gave us a realistic balance. I cannot speak for Britain, but I would assume thatit used to be pretty good considering the country's liberal history.

As I have said [codemonkeyramblings.com] , the problem is with Islam itself. Enough political correctness, please. Islam is a religion that exhorts its followers to violence. If you don't believe me, read these verses. Some of them are so clearly pro-violence against unbelievers that they don't need a "context" to be "properly understood." Now, with the exception of radical Hinduism and unorthodox strains of pseudo-Christian religions, almost all modern religion outside of Islam considers peace to be a virtue.

And just as a warning to those who want to cite a few violent verses in the Bible to me as "proof" that Judaism and Christianity are as bad as Islam, I can cite just as many direct commands from God that override any "general" interpretation of those.

Re:*Sigh* wiretapping is not the issue (5, Insightful)

Noryungi (70322) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896130)

As I have said, the problem is with Islam itself. Enough political correctness, please. Islam is a religion that exhorts its followers to violence.


*sigh* Fine, I have karma to burn, and I am feeling in a bad mood today.

  • You should get out more and meet more diverse people.
  • You should buy this book [amazon.com] and meditate its teachings on the violent background of every religion.


Now, with the exception of radical Hinduism and unorthodox strains of pseudo-Christian religions, almost all modern religion outside of Islam considers peace to be a virtue.


Right. And you are full of it. Religion is all about gathering a group of people around a central figure. The easiest way to do this is to create "enemies of the faith". And the easiest way to create enemies is to focus on their (alleged) sexual behaviour. Read this book [amazon.com] and that book [amazon.com] for more information on this. The bottom line is this: group dynamics and religious propaganda will always drag people toward violence , especially if religion -- or some form of religious belief -- is there to de-humanize the so-called "enemies". By the time individuals realize this, it's a full-scale religious war and it's to late to change course.

When you have created nice enemies, violence will always be a consequence. Does not matter which religion you are following, including Buddhism. Jainism or Zoroastrianism may be exceptions, but this is mainly due to the fact they have both been extremely small minorities for centuries now, even millenias in the case of Zoroastrianism.

And just as a warning to those who want to cite a few violent verses in the Bible to me as "proof" that Judaism and Christianity are as bad as Islam, I can cite just as many direct commands from God that override any "general" interpretation of those.


This is so dumb it's not even funny. First of all, I can probably quote more scriptures from the Bible (that great big piece of religious shit) than you. Second, when will you realize that human beings focus on the violence, and not on peace?

For every "Love thy neighbour" there is a "Kill all your enemies, and do not spare women and children". We could go tit-for-tat like this for centuries, and people have been doing exactly this all over the Internet. Interpretation of absurd commands and nit-picking regulations is what most religions are all about. And interpretation always responds first of all to bloodthirst. And we are bloodthirsty animals, all of us.

There was a time when good Christians launched Crusades against Moslems -- whose civilization was, at the time, the most brilliant on Earth. Now Moslems are using terrorism against "Christians". History repeats itself, nothing new under the sun, yadda yadda yadda. I am sick of people like you who blame one religion for all the problems. Religion, in general, is the problem (and especially retarded religious people).

Yeah, IF (2, Insightful)

tom's a-cold (253195) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896034)

Yeah, I might trust them IF they have warrants.

Anyway, I don't necessarily believe them when they say they cracked the case using wiretapping. They may well be preserving operational security by saying they got the plotters by a different method than they really used. Or perhaps they're just lying like they have so many times before.

In short, there is no new information based on this bust.

If instead they said they caught them by sneak-and-peek, would that mean that you would no longer want protection against unreasonable search and seizure?

huh? (1)

nukem996 (624036) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896071)

All I have been hearing on the news is that they were caught because they were discussing the plot in a mosk and someone their reported them. They might have used wiretapping after that but they probly got(or could of gotten) a warrent.

ppl are afraid of the wrong things (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15896128)

There is as much wiretapping going on today as was going on 8 years ago. What ppl should be afraid of , is that govs. such as the US (and I believe the UK) have allowed wiretapp info to be shared with standard gov. organizations. For example, after 9/11, the US gov pushed the USA PATRIOT act. What it really allows is for the sharing of the information that the NSA/CIA has traditionally gathered with the DOJ and the whitehouse. Agents from the NSA and CIA are for the first time sharing more and more info with the press. They object highly to this. There have been some indications that superiors have ordered the gathering of unique data; in particular, the gathering of information between democrats.

Read the article before approving, Hemos (4, Informative)

Karma Farmer (595141) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896150)

Hemos, you got trolled so hard I bet your ass hurts. The article never mentions any Britsh wiretap of any kind.

What we're afraid of (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15896151)

This country once won real wars on two fronts, against the Japanese and Adolph Hitler simultaneously. We had help from our allies of course. We had allies. We have now mobilized the entire might of the US armed forces, given the president war powers, abridged the rights of our citizens, and birsmirched our international reputatation for decades to fight what? Box cutters and bottles of hair spray. It's a disgrace.

There is no vast international Al Qaeda conspiracy; there are a handful zealots. The zealots are not new, they have always been there. They will always be there. Osama admits the paucity of their resources, laughing that even the smallest gesture on their part causes us to waste billions of dollars sending our entire nation's might to chase shadows.

Our military efforts do not make us safer, they only inflame the passions of more zealots. If a foreign nation bombed an your American city in order to retaliate against some atrocity committed by a small band of Canadian whack jobs passing through, and in the process your family was killed by the collateral damage, I'd wager good odds you'd become a zealot yourself.

Our surveillance efforts do not make us safer. There are so many ways a motivated individual could do harm. That fact alone puts the lie to vast Al Qaeda conspiricy theories floated by our deranged administration. If the apparatus were as vast as Dick Cheney constantly implies, we'd be feeling the pain. There are real criminals to be caught. The residents of Indianapolis, for example, are currently being terrorized by a real killing spree. Our nation's resources are not infinite. While our best agencies chase bogeymen, real killers run free.

Instead of sending armies after ants, we should be asking ourselves just how it so happens that someone with a box cutter can bring down a skyscraper. Jumbo jets can become weapons. If you don't like that, then for fuck's sake change the system, instead of trying to pretend that you can hunt down every whacko on the planet with cruise missles, artillery, and battleship guns. Why has it taken this goddamn long for someone to realize that carry on baggage is a hazard? So is any kind of baggage, for that matter. Don't let giant cargo ships laden with natural gas steam through Boston harbor. Don't let unit trains pulling hundreds of tons of volatile chemicals into urban areas. Don't build buildings that can be wiped out with a few small well placed charges.

My little girl wasn't afraid of monsters in the closet until my wife brilliantly decided to ask her one day "are you afraid there is a monster in the closet?" That night she had nightmares. Brilliant. The only thing remarkable about 9/11 was that it hadn't happened before. Planes have been hijacked before. Planes have been blown up before. I don't mean to diminish the tragedy, but it is imperative that we stop exaggerating the nature of the threat it implies. The threat is the same as it always was, and always will be. The only thing that has changed is the political rhetoric of our administration. Dick Cheney says "boo", and terrorizes the nation.

It is abolute lunacy to believe that we can eliminate inherent technological risks through at a global social level. No military might, social engineering, propoganda, war power, surveillance, police state, or any other effort to rid the world of crazyness will succeed. There will always be a crazy asshole somewhere. And unless we rid the world of gasoline, people will always be able to use it to start fires.

I do have one idea for how we could reduce the number of crazy people in the world though. Stop killing, injuring, and terrorizing innocent children. If anything ever happens to my children, I will not fear death and my rage will never diminish. Anyone with children knows what I'm talking about.

There are risks in the world. It seems, however, that we are driven in social stampedes like lemmings, rather than the intelligent reasoning we forever congratulate our species for. And so the world has gone mad. Will we ever snap out of it?

Nope (3, Insightful)

Antony-Kyre (807195) | more than 7 years ago | (#15896283)

I am not willing to trade my constitutional rights and other civil liberties in exchange for security.
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