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Miyamoto on Wiimakes, Dead-End Design

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the four-years-of-wii-puns-to-look-forward-to-folks dept.

81

GameDaily is reporting on an interview that Nintendo Dream scored with legendary designer Shigeru Miyamoto. Mr. Miyamoto spoke about the future of design and Wii gaming during the interview, touching on several interesting topics. Older Gamecube titles, for example, may be remade for the Wii at some point in the future to take advantage of the console's unique control scheme. There are no announcements of which titles might see this treatment, but he seemed confident that if it does happen the pricepoint would be rather low. In some more high-level comments, Mr. Miyamoto stated that game designers have come to a dead-end as regards gaming today. Not sparing his own company, the designer thinks that future titles will have to come at gaming from a very different perspective if they are to succeed.

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81 comments

Use the original disc (4, Interesting)

NsOmNiA91130 (942812) | more than 7 years ago | (#15969599)

They should be able to use the original disc, and have the game be locally patched to handle the Wii's control scheme. I wouldn't mind paying $5 for some Metroid Prime goodness.

Re:Use the original disc (3, Insightful)

anjin-san 3 (983912) | more than 7 years ago | (#15969655)

I think the idea is intended to appeal to the people who never owned a Gamecube and missed out on some good games.

Re:Use the original disc (2, Interesting)

Manmademan (952354) | more than 7 years ago | (#15969839)

I think the idea is intended to appeal to the people who never owned a Gamecube and missed out on some good games.
That's what backwards compatibility is for. Hitting up the used racks at EB makes a lot more sense to that crowd than shoehorning the wii's control system into games not initially designed for it. I thought Nintendo was supposed to be about innovation? Make NEW games around the interface, rather than rehashing the old stuff.

Re:Use the original disc (2, Interesting)

clu76 (620823) | more than 7 years ago | (#15969968)

Nintendo is also about profit, and they don't make a dime from used game sales. Re-releasing titles with added wii functionality is their way of competing with the used games market. I don't see this as a rehashing, considering they are also pushing a lot of NEW games for the system.

Re:Use the original disc (2, Insightful)

rabbot (740825) | more than 7 years ago | (#15971018)

Hitting up the used racks at EB makes a lot more sense to that crowd than shoehorning the wii's control system into games not initially designed for it
I think that crowd will pick up the cheap Wii remakes if the new controls positively add to the experience...and we have no reason to think they will just go around remaking any old cube game. I'm sure they will only pick ones that will be better for it. Especially if it is comparably priced to the used games.

Nothing stopping them from adding wifi support either. I'd definitely buy a wifi enabled, graphically overhauled, wii controller remake over the cube version in the used bin.

I thought Nintendo was supposed to be about innovation? Make NEW games around the interface, rather than rehashing the old stuff.
Why can't they do both? You honestly think they would sacrifice new ideas to remake cube games? I seriously doubt it.

Re:Use the original disc (1)

grapeape (137008) | more than 7 years ago | (#15972942)

As long as they are making new games for the Wii I dont see releasing Wii enhanced versions of old ones as a bad thing. I can recall several games I have played with older controllers where I thought about how much better they would have been with the new one. N64 titles come to mind, I hated the n64 controller but loved some of the games. Pre dual shock ps1 games also are a good example.

If the new zelda game is alot of fun on the Wii, I can totally see people saying "gee I wish Ocarina of Time could use the remote", things like slashing bushes or waving the wand to control the music would totally fit, now it might actually happen. You dont have to buy it, but for those that would enjoy it, its nice to see the option there especially at a bargain price.

Re:Use the original disc (1)

TheRequiem13 (978749) | more than 7 years ago | (#15969683)

Those tiny discs might get lost in that full-sized slot.

Re:Use the original disc (1)

Valthan (977851) | more than 7 years ago | (#15969719)

except for the fact that the Wii is already backwards compatible with GC games (on their original discs.

Re:Use the original disc (1)

conigs (866121) | more than 7 years ago | (#15969812)

I think the point was to add the new control scheme of the Wii to the older GC games. This would take a little tweaking to the code, hence re-releasing the games.
As it stands, I don't think the GC games can take advantage motion sensitivity of the Wii controller. And simply putting a layer between the controller and the game to translate controller movement into what the game expects would yeild less than desirable results.

Re:Use the original disc (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15970878)

i'm guessing the original poster wanted those tweaks to be downloadable, and patch the game while it's loaded to memory. I'm not sure if that is possible. I am sure that i am not too fond of paying for download-only software :) I like having the disc. And the possibility to buy some games i have missed for the gamecube (some are nearly impossible to get nowadays over here, although those will probably not be rereleased anyway).

Also, somehow i don't see that option being much cheaper for us users in the end, but maybe i have become too sceptical about big companies and prices they charge.

Re:Use the original disc (1)

trdrstv (986999) | more than 7 years ago | (#15969771)

It would be nice, but doubtful.

It depends on how they do it. I wouldn't mind them offering GC games with more feautures (such as Wiimote controls) and Widescreen support (or even multiple games bundled), for a reasonable price. From a development stand point it wouldn't be difficult.

I would re-buy Metroid Prime 1 & 2 for that for say $20. Even better if it was on 1 disk.

Could be awesome... (1)

jizziknight (976750) | more than 7 years ago | (#15969661)

if the full game was for sale, and not just a patch. Then I could get GC games that I don't already have on the cheap.

Re:Could be awesome... (1)

Ryan Amos (16972) | more than 7 years ago | (#15969813)

You already can.. Check eBay, I have found every GC game I've ever wanted in good shape for under $10.

Re:Could be awesome... (1)

jizziknight (976750) | more than 7 years ago | (#15969901)

True, but I'd personally rather have a brand new game without the typical eBay risk for under $10. Not to mention these would have added "features".

My message to Miyamoto-san... (4, Insightful)

UbuntuDupe (970646) | more than 7 years ago | (#15969678)

You have planned to launch a system with a fundamentally different interface from what people are used to. How to optimally exploit this for fun games is not obvious, because it's very out-of-the-box. The more minds you can have working on this, the better. This is even more important than on rival consoles because of the immensely-greater possibilities. If you really want to discover the most innovative uses of the Wiimote, you're going to need to let hobbyists buy the (fortunately affordable) SDK. Even if their version is bad, if they hit on a good use no one though of, that can become an instant console-seller. Why keep your restrictive policies about the size of developers you'll sell to?

Re:My message to Miyamoto-san... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15969817)

Ack! -san is never used when referring to public figures. Cut the anime fanboy crap and just call him Miyamoto.

Re:My message to Miyamoto-san... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15969823)

What the fuck are you talking about???

It's just a fucking pointer with some motion sensing.

Re:My message to Miyamoto-san... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15970282)

You missed the most important piece which is that it can also sense itself in 3D space.

Re:My message to Miyamoto-san... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15969849)

It is very understandable they ahve restrictive policies about who they sell their SDK to. That is part of keeping control over the quality of games being released.

Nintendo is not waiting for a bunch of hobbyists to goof around and have them "maybe" produce a hit, they need quality games.

I guess you don't want to understand this and stay in your imaginary world where hobbyists can make a console work....

Ask yourself, why isn't there a hobbyists supported console around?...

Ah well....

Slashdot.....

Re:My message to Miyamoto-san... (2, Insightful)

UbuntuDupe (970646) | more than 7 years ago | (#15969921)

It is very understandable they ahve restrictive policies about who they sell their SDK to. That is part of keeping control over the quality of games being released.

From the fact that they will let you *use* the SDK, it does not follow that they must allow you to sell licensed games for their system. They can allow people to experiment and share their games with friends, while at the same time maintaining creative control.

Nintendo is not waiting for a bunch of hobbyists to goof around and have them "maybe" produce a hit, they need quality games.

Making quality games is not mutually exclusive with allowing more minds to "goof around" with such a new system.

I guess you don't want to understand this and stay in your imaginary world where hobbyists can make a console work....

Please don't try to blur what I was saying to be too broad. I accept that sigificant investment must be made to market the console and give it initial momentum. I'm not like people who genuinely wonder why the GP2X isn't selling. But *once* they have kicked it off, the massive experimentation can lead to something no developer would have though to make significant investment in.

Ask yourself, why isn't there a hobbyists supported console around?...

Er, there are, it's just that no one of them has significant mass appeal anymore.

Re:My message to Miyamoto-san... (1)

0mni (734493) | more than 7 years ago | (#15974181)

Uh I'm pretty sure they also don't want a mod chip coming out for the game, knowing the ins and outs of the systems would speed this process along a lot.

Re:My message to Miyamoto-san... (3, Insightful)

RyoShin (610051) | more than 7 years ago | (#15969913)

What they really should do is what Microsoft did- release a "dumbed down" SDK for cheap cheap cheap. Then little garage setups can tinker and release small games, and eventually get enough "cred" to get a real SDK.

Miyamoto-san's Reply (3, Funny)

Khakionion (544166) | more than 7 years ago | (#15970851)

Hi, thanks for your message. Unfortunately, Slashdot isn't my personal messaging system, so I didn't read one word of whatever you said. Regardless, I hope you enjoy Twilight Princess!

Love,

Shigeru "Important People Don't Read Slashdot" Miyamoto

Nintendo Treading On Thin Ice (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15969743)

The Wii controller just isn't 'innovative'

There, I said it. Nintendo is really on dangerous ground in the console market if they really intend to make the Wii controller the centerpiece of their entire console strategy. Almost every Wii game shown so far shows that all gaming input comes down to a set of continuous(joystick,mouse,pointer(Wiimote)) and discrete(button,(Wii gestures)) input.

The Wii controller talk about 'actually swinging your controller like a sword' or 'use the controller like a fishing rod' reminds me of the race back in the late 80s rpg/adventure games where developers kept adding more and more real world actions to their games. Feeding, equipping items, moving/manipulating objects in the world. In the end it became tedious.

So far Wii games appear to be broken down in to two categories - games that are simple mappings of control schemes on to the Wii(Joystick input->Wii aiming) and (Button presses -> Wii gestures/button presses) and a few games that mimic real world actions.

I don't need to re-buy a souped up GameCube for the first type - I have one already and it works fine. And I don't want the second type anymore than those old games where you had to manually perform every real world action.

Re:Nintendo Treading On Thin Ice (4, Insightful)

Volante3192 (953645) | more than 7 years ago | (#15969907)

The Wii controller just isn't 'innovative'

I'm curious to what dictionary you got your definition of 'innovative' out of...

(innovative = characterized by, tending to, or introducing innovations, yeay for recursive definitions)
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/innovations [m-w.com]
Main Entry: innovation
Pronunciation: "i-n&-'vA-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : the introduction of something new
2 : a new idea, method, or device : NOVELTY

Seems to me this controller fits that definition to a T. What I don't find innovative is simply increasing resolution or texture depth or triangles per second. It's not *new* it's just an improvement, like going from a 20" TV to a 32" TV.

It might not be an innovation that works, or appeals to the entire crowd, but you can't have a success without some failures. (Virtual Boy...ugg) Personally, I'm excited by it. I don't need a new console to play games with a control pad; I've got emulators and a Gravis. I don't need spiffy shiny console games, I can get a new system with an X1950 for that.

However, this is a bonifide innovation, and it might actually be fun.

Re:Nintendo Treading On Thin Ice (1)

doctor_nation (924358) | more than 7 years ago | (#15970888)

I'm not a huge skeptic of the Wiimote, but to be fair, it isn't innovative. It's a rehash of all those horrible motion-activated peripherals made in the 80's and 90's. They just made it the main feature of the system instead of an add-on. Nothing really new or novel about it, except maybe that it works better or is more precise (sort of like adding more polygons or buttons). Innovation isn't all its cracked up to be anyway- usually the first iteration of something innovative sucks, even though it may be praised for its novelness. That's why there's hope for the Wiimote- it's not the first iteration, and hopefully all those power glove game designers have been spending the last 15 years or so figuring out how they'd do better this time.

Re:Nintendo Treading On Thin Ice (4, Insightful)

EdwinBoyd (810701) | more than 7 years ago | (#15969973)

If you look at the strategy employed on the DS (another non-innovative system by your reckoning) you will see that while there are many games that take advantage of the touch screen/microphone there are also many successful games that don't make use of it al all.
Nintendo will encourage developers to make use of the unique capabilities of the Wii but they will not force feed it to the public. If Nintendo feels that a game is better experienced with a standard gamepad they'll run with it.

You're wrong and poorly informed. (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15969986)

There, I said it. Never before has there been a consumer interface device with the following properties:

1 - Full 3D spatial location tracking
2 - Accelerometer
3 - Gyroscope

It is the combination of all these things that make the controller TRULY innovative, not just innovative in the sense that it is going against the current grain of "more buttonz everywherez". Imagine the effects this controller can have on a game - Splinter Cell's lockpicking mini-game is no longer a matter of jiggling joysticks. You actually have to reach TOWARD the television in order to slide the pins in. Trauma Center will not need a special zoom tool anymore - just reach toward the TV, and it will zoom the image for you! Even launch titles like Twilight Princess are using this to let you actually draw your bow and arrow back.

I don't know how you can possibly say that this approach is not "innovative". You might not personally like it, and that's fine. A lot of people dislike fun! That's why the PS3 exists ;) The rest of us can't wait to wave our hands around like idiots and laugh while we do it!

Re:You're wrong and poorly informed. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15970115)

"1 - Full 3D spatial location tracking
2 - Accelerometer
3 - Gyroscope
"

Those three things are only useful for the simulation of real world actions. Exactly what the GPP was talking about.

"You actually have to reach TOWARD the television in order to slide the pins in. "

Bleah, no thanks. If I want to ACTUALLY manipulate stuff, I'll go outside.

Reality >>>> Wiimote

Re:You're wrong and poorly informed. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15970507)

Using Trauma Center since the GP used it and you responded to it... I enjoy Trauma Center but am no doctor. So if I want to have fun doing medical stuff, using your logic, I should go outside and perform an emergency operation on the easiest or slowest animal/person I can catch rather than play Trauma Center with the Wiimote.

Bleah, no thanks. Reality >>>> Wiimote, but not in every situation.

Re:You're wrong and poorly informed. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15970658)

"If I want to ACTUALLY manipulate stuff, I'll go outside."

I'd just stay in your room like you usually do...

Re:Nintendo Treading On Thin Ice (3, Interesting)

MobileTatsu-NJG (946591) | more than 7 years ago | (#15970050)

"The Wii controller just isn't 'innovative'"

I really cannot say I agree with that. I've recently been playing San Andreas. Though I enjoy the game, the controller is a big hinderance. Not only is aiming the gun a pain in the butt, but it isn't hard to hit the wrong button at an inopportune time. A number of times I've gone to hit the targetting button and changed weapons instead. After I build up some muscle memory on it, it won't matter as much, but it's still frustrating. If the Wii were to get a port of this (blah, I don't expect that, but man I'd love it) I'd be able to point the remote at the target and hit the trigger button to fire. If I want to go jack a car, I'd thrust the nunchuck controller ahead in a punching motion instead of hitting the action button. If those were the only upgrades to the game with the remote, I'd not only have a much better time controlling it, I'd also have a more intuitive interface.

This is the sort of scheme Nintendo is pushing ahead with. In light of what Sony and Microsoft have for their 'next-gen' systems, I'd say 'thin-ice' is the last thing I'd use to describe Nintendo's controller. I went to a 360 kiosk and tried to play a demo of a WWII game. Trying to aim the gun was clumsy at best, and who knows what the other buttons did. I wouldn't mind, but 'running around and shooting stuff' is what most of these games are based on.

Respectfully, I disagree with your post. Partly because I've found FPS gaming (even games like Metroid Prime) frustrating with traditional controls and partly because I'm really enjoying my DS. I'm welcoming the Wii with open arms.

Re:Nintendo Treading On Thin Ice (2, Insightful)

Bohnanza (523456) | more than 7 years ago | (#15970379)

I wouldn't mind, but 'running around and shooting stuff' is what most of these games are based on.

Which is one of the reasons designers are at a "dead end". With a few notable exceptions, video/PC games are based on Sports or Combat of some type. Even "Adventure" or the badly-mischaracterised computer "Role Playing" games usually involve lots of fighting. Designers can't seem to think of anything else.

Re:Nintendo Treading On Thin Ice (4, Interesting)

Jerf (17166) | more than 7 years ago | (#15970621)

Designers can't seem to think of anything else.

I don't think it's that they can't think of anything else, it's that they can't implement anything else.

Take Nethack. Now, make a magnificent modern AAA 3D game out of it that sacrifices absolutely nothing. Every spell effect, every creature, every action, everything. It is probably theoretically possible, but it would be a monstrous undertaking. Nethack casually does very advanced things because the graphics, perhaps ironically, support those advanced things as well as they do anything else.

Angband is simpler in many ways, but it also does some things with terrain and detection spells that a modern 3D graphics engine could hardly dream of.

Graphics have shot well ahead of our ability to actually represent things with them. Combat's all that's left, and honestly, it tends to suck; if my sword was actually going straight through that orc, shouldn't it be in two pieces now? But it's easily fakable. Most other things aren't. So we're left with games consisting of the things that are sorta, kinda fakable in 3D.

Who knows how many wonderful features have been cut because there was no way to render them in breathtaking 3D? We end up with only the games we can represent in 3D, which is a horrific subset of the games we could do in 2D. There's still room for 2D games because we aren't as advanced in 3D as we think we are.

The Wii at least attacks one problem, that of the fundamentally binary input of buttons and a directional pad being your only interface into a complicated world. (I am aware that the directional pads are technically analog, but they aren't really very good at it.) But it doesn't do anything to attack the graphics problem.

Re:Nintendo Treading On Thin Ice (1)

badboy_tw2002 (524611) | more than 7 years ago | (#15970512)

So how is remembering that "getting into the car == punch" any easier than "press B"? The muscle memory is still there. I agree with you on the gun. The FPS will be very interesting to play (though turning around STILL won't be as good as a mouse!), and games will actually be made for it since its the standard input device. What I'm afraid of on the Wii is a bunch of games where designers "Wii-ify" a game by taking a button press and making it a stupid gesture. No thanks, I'd rather hit the button. If you're using the input to actually do something (the continuous motion type) then I think you're getting something out of it. If I have to karate chop where I previously double tapped A, no thanks. Black & White anyone?

Re:Nintendo Treading On Thin Ice (1)

MobileTatsu-NJG (946591) | more than 7 years ago | (#15971072)

"So how is remembering that "getting into the car == punch" any easier than "press B"?"

Just reach reach out like you jiggle a door handle.

Re:Nintendo Treading On Thin Ice (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15971246)

The fundamental problem with it is 'Gorilla Arm' http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/G/gorilla-arm.html [catb.org]

It's easy to hit buttons all night long, but when sword fighting takes just as much energy in-game as it does in real life, people are too lazy to do it.

Compared with what? (2, Insightful)

ianscot (591483) | more than 7 years ago | (#15970138)

The Wii controller talk about 'actually swinging your controller like a sword' or 'use the controller like a fishing rod' reminds me of the race back in the late 80s rpg/adventure games where developers kept adding more and more real world actions to their games. Feeding, equipping items, moving/manipulating objects in the world. In the end it became tedious.

I have not one idea how you think those two things are comparable. If it were somehow the case that games would, by definition, use the Wiimote to make the user constantly open a backpack and equip items in Zelda, that would be one thing -- but I don't see how the one thing leads to the other. If you're just saying that the Wiimote actions will necessarily become too repetitive, I'm lost as to why they're any more or less "tedious" than the blank-eyed button pressing on other controllers and consoles.

(Frankly, too, I've been around a while and I don't remember the supposed phase you're describing in rgps and adventure games.)

Your idea that, because the Wiimote can result in some of the same actions that button presses and joystick controls can cause on-screen, it's somehow not innovative -- that would dismiss such changes as analog controls as also not being innovative. After all, we could move characters on screen before them, right?

Finally, your argument begs the question: Nintendo is treading on thin ice next to what competition? The $600 "buy our HDVD standard product"? Do you have some idea that actually would be "innovative" in your book? Or what?

Re:Compared with what? (2, Insightful)

thebdj (768618) | more than 7 years ago | (#15970317)

(Frankly, too, I've been around a while and I don't remember the supposed phase you're describing in rgps and adventure games.)

I believe he is recalling that phase where he stopped playing simplified hack-and-slash RPGs and started playing real ones that actually made you worry about items that had been part of PnP RPGs since their creation. Honestly, this is another one of those trolls who wants his pretty graphics and could care less about real gameplay. There is something I really dislike about how games seem to just be repeating them self with better graphics.

Innovation is big here. The only thing I have seen that was close to this was the fishing controller for DC and that was very specialized for a single game. I think it is great to get video games that require more interaction. I also think this will change how some people view video games. This may still not bring games in line with actually going outside and playing, but the amount of physical activity required for playing a game just went way up. I personally look forward to the chance to play Tiger Woods or Baseball on the Wii. The ability to actually have "real" control is very cool. (And if Lucasarts does make a lightsaber game for Wii, oh I will be in heaven.)

Re:Compared with what? (1)

triffid_98 (899609) | more than 7 years ago | (#15970966)

Actually, there were 3 fishing games, but you're absolutely right. It's a specialty controller. Sega was actually really big on those for their arcade ports (maraccas,twin sticks,dance pads,etc). The problem is that most people aren't willing to shell out $50 for a new game and another $75 for a controller (just for that game). The Wii nun-chucks are a compramise, we'll have to wait and see how they play out.

Innovation is big here. The only thing I have seen that was close to this was the fishing controller for DC and that was very specialized for a single game. I think it is great to get video games that require more interaction. I also think this will change how some people view video games.

Re:Nintendo Treading On Thin Ice (2, Interesting)

rob1980 (941751) | more than 7 years ago | (#15970151)

How is it not innovative? Tell me you've never twisted your controller around while you were trying to make a sharp turn on a race track. Tell me you've never instinctively raised your controller up while trying to get your character to block an attack in a fighting game. Everybody does this, it's instictive. Nintendo looked at all this and said... ok, we're going to drag you further into the game and make your instincts actually count for something.

That's a hell of a lot more innovative than Sony could ever hope to be with Gran Tourismo in 1080p.

I think it'll do well, and given that they're basing their entire console strategy around it, the Wiimote is going to get a hell of a lot of support that other failed gimmicks (like the Virtual Boy or R.O.B.) didn't get. It's certainly something that Sony and Microsoft aren't giving us this time, and that's why I'm sold on it.

Re:Nintendo Treading On Thin Ice (1)

CarnivoreMan (827905) | more than 7 years ago | (#15970228)

I dont see the relation between adding tedious in-game actions and a new method of control for a game. The two ideas are rather different. The Wiimote doesnt just add useless actions, its like giving players a third hand in regards to control input to the game.

Hand 1: joystick.
Hand 2: buttons such as A or B
"Hand" 3: Movement of the controller

The movement input from the controller thankfully being far more robust than just tilt sensing.... I think involving such fancy things as acceleration and possibly even cooler words like inertia that I dont really properly undestand I'm sure.

Anyway, I think I've forgotten my point, and my coffee cup is empty. Time to submit. Ta Ta For Now.

Re:Nintendo Treading On Thin Ice (1)

eboot (697478) | more than 7 years ago | (#15970989)

Oooo look mom I found a troll!!

Re:Nintendo Treading On Thin Ice (1)

kehren77 (814078) | more than 7 years ago | (#15972851)

The Wii controller just isn't 'innovative'

I'm afraid I have to agree with this. First of all, Nintendo themselves have done this before. It was called the Power Glove [wikipedia.org] last time.

Obviously the Wiimote is quite a step up in technology, but not enough to call it "innovative'.

Re:Nintendo Treading On Thin Ice (1)

kehren77 (814078) | more than 7 years ago | (#15972897)

Okay before anyone rips my head off for this, I realize that Nintendo didn't actually make the Power Glove. I meant simply that it was an NES compatible device.

Re:Nintendo Treading On Thin Ice (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15973494)

First off, the PowerGlovedidn't have 6 axis of control, didn't have an integrated pointed device, and also didn't locate itself in real-space so saying the Wiimote is the same as the PowerGlove is like saying the PS3's controller is the same as a Pong controller.

Now beyond the fact that all the technology is (much) more evolved than anything that has been used before, that the Wiimote incorproates more technologies in than has ever been attempted before, and that the Nunchuck attachment makes the control set up more intuitive then anything we have seen, does something have to have never been tried before to be inovative? Was the Wavebird not inovative because shitty wireless controllers had been made for decades? Was the analogue stick on the N64 controller not inovative because analogue joystics existed before?

Re:Nintendo Treading On Thin Ice (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15973170)

Hey, look! The anonymous Sony troll is back. Persistent little bugger, you.

None of what Wii has suggests any connection to the tedious actions you note, until you tried to make the connection. Red Steel isn't going to be about using the Wii controller to move items around and feed your character - it's going to let you swing the sword and fire the gun, which is what we all wanted back in those days to which you refer!

It's innovative, it's fresh, and it is going to pummel the living daylights out of your sponsor's PS3 in the marketplace. Get used to the idea while it's still early enough.

Re:Nintendo Treading On Thin Ice (2, Insightful)

justchris (802302) | more than 7 years ago | (#15974880)

I think you misunderstand the concept of innovation. Innovation is not just a matter of doing something no one has ever done before, but a matter of doing it differently than it has been done before. Certainly there have been attempts at motion sensing control, pointing devices and separate hand controls before (which has always struck me as the next step in control, it's silly to always keep both hands in the same position). The Wiimote+nunchuk is innovative not just because of what it does, but because of how it does it, and because of how it's designed.

After all, by your definition, the printing press wasn't particularly innovative. After all, people had been making books for years. All the printing press did was make it faster and more efficient. It didn't even make bookmaking better. After all, I don't know if you ever read an illuminated book, but they are gorgeous, especially in comparison to the drab, cookie-cutter text we have now.

The individual bits in the Wii remote may not be new, but they are certainly innovative.

Wii will probably fail (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15969793)

The Wii will probably fail. The controller is too gimmicky. The idea that there are a lot of non-gamers out there dying to play video games with a remote control.

The biggest advantage for the Wii is that the PS3 is so expensive. The Japanese will never buy a non-Japanese console, so many people will buy a Wii by default. Or they will just stick with a PS2. I expect that we'll see a lot of PS2 games released in Japan in the coming years because of slow PS3 adoption.

A lot of non-gamers who play games, play them on the PC: Flash and Java games. Think the current trend of online poker playing. That counts as a game. Solitaire is a game, it doesn't have Zelda or Mario, but it's a game.

Online hype for a console may help a console a little. Just as Snakes on a Plane was helped a little by online hype. But it won't be enough to save Nintendo.

Re:Wii will probably fail (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15969902)

I bet you would be one of the cavemen who'd say fire is a gimmick.

Re:Wii will probably fail (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15970077)

Depends ... are we talking about mere cantrips, or a fireball?

Re:Wii will probably fail (2, Insightful)

danbeck (5706) | more than 7 years ago | (#15970125)

I know I'm feeding a troll here, but Nintendo has never stated that they think scores of non-gamers are out there wating with bated breath for a console made just for them. They have repeatedly stated that modern console systems are tough to get into if you are ouside of the gamer group. They have repeatedly stated that they hope the familiar "remote" shape of the controller and the intuitive control will help make non-gamers feel comfortable. Whether this works out the way they would like, is to be decided starting this fall.

Re:Wii will probably fail (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15970279)

But it won't be enough to save Nintendo.

What makes you think that Nintendo needs to be saved?

I don't have the link to the analysis anymore but I have seen people who looked into the financial statements of Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo over the past 5 years and Nintendo made as much of a profit as Sony (the whole company, not just the games division) over that time frame; on the other hand, Sony has been seeing declining profits (or increasing losses) in practically every division except for their financial/insurance division and their games division is one of the few profitable divisions. Sony is betting that the PS3 can drive the sales of HDTVs, surround sound systems, and Blu-Ray movies in order to make most of their divisions profitable again.

The Wii will probably sell at least as many systems as the Gamecube, the Virtual Console will easily become a cash cow as people re-buy games they have already purchased, and the unique Wiimote will drive the sales of Nintendo developed software (because Nintendo is one of the best companies for inovating with a new input device). Meanwhile the DS is more popular then the GBA was, its selling massive quantities of Nintendo software, and looks to continue performing well. Nintendo will be fine.

Sony (on the other hand) will probably sell less PS3s then they sold PS2, will be forced (by Microsoft) to sell them at a loss for most of the generation, will see lower software sales from higher game costs ($60-$70 per title) and a smaller user base, will see lower profits from each sale from higher development costs, will face greater marketing costs from the contining falure of the PSP, and so on.

Sony is in some rough shape, and it can only get worse

Re:Wii will probably fail (1)

Dazer (997804) | more than 7 years ago | (#15978958)

Yeah. I can tell you that I believe that I believe the reason that Sony is losing money, is that all Sony has been building is crap, partly because it got people into buying there computers and monitors(which, all the cd drives in our house have stopped using after owning, and having the computer on for about 2 years(every one, and we have about 4 Sony comps in our house). Also, most of Sony's income was taken out when microsoft announced and released the xbox. at $600 I could build myself a decent(not great, but decent) AMD computer. That $600 for about, say, oh, $450 in hardware, is what is going to keep many people from buying the system. However, the ps3 will have free online, of which I have not heard anything about the wii being online. Most likely, it should.

FYI: The number of kids that buy the Pokemon games could probably keep Nintendo afloat for quite a while.

P.S. Besides, the Wii will be cooler, and, hopefully, will look more fun to those that dont normally play games(adding more income to Nintendo)

Re:Wii will probably fail (1)

SalaciousPucker (911419) | more than 7 years ago | (#15977182)

You're right, but will still get marked as a troll. I'd have modded you up rather then posted if I had the points.

I'd add some things to what you say though - the fact that the Wii is NOT truly a next gen console, but rather a last gen console with gimmick a controller (even if it winds up being a great gimmick), is going to catch up with it. This is a system just slightly more powerful than the XBOX, note that that's the XBOX not the XBOX 360. This is probabably fine for Christmas 2006, but it's going to look like a relic next year, and how will a 8 year old console (technologically) sell a year after that against $300~200 360's & PS3's?

It all comes back to the controller being revolutionary, and I don't see it. Everyone will want to try it and knowing Nintendo, there will be some gaming gems, but it's not going to bring back the 'awe' for gaming. This is a new age power glove and it's the crux of the whole console, rather then an add-in. Even if this new power glove is great, it's not going to be great for long and it isn't going to make 8 year old looking games any better.

Finally, I am not going to say that Nintendo will fail by pursuing the 'low end' here, but this definitely means handing off any chance of the crown. Even if it sees some success, the Wii will be a bigger threat to the market for last gen consoles/games, the PS2 & XBOX, than it is to the 360 & PS3. Since that's where people not inclined to spend top dollar get their games.

Re:Wii will probably fail (1)

hkmwbz (531650) | more than 7 years ago | (#15980574)

Actually, Wii is significantly more powerful than GC or even Xbox. You are blinded by the MHz myth, but the fact is that the architecture itself gets rid of previous bottlenecks (such as limited memory), and generally updated performance.

You seem to be forgetting that Wii only needs to push around a quarter of the pixels the other next-gen consoles need to push around, since it doesn't support HD. In other words, you get vastly improved graphics - they just aren't HD.

I know that you are probably a Sony or Microsoft shill, so I'll stop right there. Needless to say, you are either employed by a competitor or a mindless fanboy desperate to flame Nintendo because they get all the positive press this time around.

Wind Waker Wiimake (1)

wilgibson (933961) | more than 7 years ago | (#15970065)

I would love to see a Wind Waker Wii-make with all the features Miyamoto had originally planned for it. I know that in atleast one article I read years ago he said there was supposed to be atleast two more dungeons and the hunt for the Triforce wasn't supposed to be an annoying romp across the ocean.

Eternal Darkness would also be a really cool game for a Wiimake.

Just gimme a bean burrito and I'll wake some wind. (1)

zooblethorpe (686757) | more than 7 years ago | (#15974497)

I know "Wind Waker" is not a typo, but sheesh, talk about iffy game titles -- all it brings to mind is summer camp games of fennis...

Not to add fuel to the fire, but... (1)

Daimando (842740) | more than 7 years ago | (#15970154)

What would happen if some companies decide to re-release previous PS2/X-Box titles on the Wii *Imagine Katamari Damacy, Kingdom Hearts, Contra: Shattered Soldier, Ninja Gaiden, Star Wars: KOTOR, and Soul Calibur 3 on the Wii*

Re:Not to add fuel to the fire, but... (1)

Deadguy2322 (761832) | more than 7 years ago | (#15971384)

Actually, they would suck. They were designed for the controls they used, and waving your arms around like a moron would NOT improve any of them in the slightest.

I don't see many people bringing this up... (3, Interesting)

Mongoose (8480) | more than 7 years ago | (#15970620)

It seems a lot of people on internet fourms don't consider the possibly of the DS keeping the Wii market share low. There is a big difference with casual mobile and casual on the console. Also the recent Xbox Live arcade has more to do with the lack of titles than the appeal of the actual games. What happens if you can get the same title for DS as Wii? Which do you think people would buy? This is one of the ideas leading analysts to think of Wii as a '3rd place' in next gen. Once it gets down to the SNES and 'arcade' titles people will want to play those on DS more than Wii.

Re:I don't see many people bringing this up... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15970814)

Well, I think that casual gamer has as little of a connection toportable gamer as it does to console gamer; I think what Nintendo has done with the DS is to take things that people like to do on the go (like play sudoko; I don't think that that is correctly spelled) and provided them for the DS to ecourage non-gamers to pick up the system. The result was that non-gamers picked up the system on a massive scale; after they purchased the system they also bought Nintendo's easy to play fun games (the new Super Mario Bros.).

The question as to whether this will be successful with the Wii depends on whether they can provide games that interest non-gamers; if they can get EA to make Tiger Woods Golf for the Wii (and it simulates golf well), Nintendo could find their system being sold to 10 Million golfers in the middle of winter.

Re:I don't see many people bringing this up... (1)

cowscows (103644) | more than 7 years ago | (#15970856)

While it might come up once in a while, I don't think this is going to be as big of a problem as you're making it out to be. How many games will be available on both? Probably not that many. While backwards combatibility is nice, I don't think it's a major force for driving console sales. People are more interested in the new games. Then there's the fact that although the DS has two screens, those two screens still only add up to to maybe 20 square inches of display, which can't hold much detail or complexity compared to the sorts of TV's that you can buy now.

Oh, and don't forget that you'll likely be able to get both a Wii and a DS Lite for cheaper than just a PS3.

Bunch of hypocrites (1)

JFMulder (59706) | more than 7 years ago | (#15971206)

People complain that games have sequels and are becoming derivative more and more, and I don't see anyone bitching about the fact that Nintendo wants to release remakes (albeit at lower prices) of Gamecube games with different controls. There goes your innovation. Why isn't anyone picking up on this? Oh right... this is Nintendo, they can't do anything wrong now because of the Wiimote. Besides, why would I want to buy the same game with different control mechanics when I've already played it through before multiple times?

Re:Bunch of hypocrites (1)

digitrev (989335) | more than 7 years ago | (#15973010)

This is like updating a version of an old program. All they'll be doing is adding in a few features here and there, not building a game from scratch. The actual work will involve pulling up old code, and changing a few functions / subprograms that control certain events. They'd probably be able to rehash about 5-6 old games in the time it would take to write a control scheme for a new game. And let's be realistic, the games that are likely to be re-written are the Mario, Zelda, Metroid, and some of the sports games. And since they're already writing new controls to use the Wiimote for Zelda (TP), Metroid (MP3), Mario (Galaxies), it'll be even easier, as the pseudo-code, if not the actual code, is already there to look at and adapt. So yes, they're rereleasing games. However, if people are willing to pay for it, and since it's not likely going to take that much reprogramming, then why complain? It's not eating up their resources. You don't like it, don't buy it.

Re:Bunch of hypocrites (1)

JFMulder (59706) | more than 7 years ago | (#15973410)

The why people are complaining about games like Halo 3, Call Of Duty 12 or Final Fantasy 3000? If people are willing to pay (and sales show people are willing to pay), then why all the fuss over sequels?

Seriously, I'd rather have Nintendo create a totally new Mario Baseball (or Tennis) with Wii quality graphics and updates to the gameplay (aside from the remote), then a souped up version that it's only different with the original is Wiimote.

not to counter the great miyamoto (1)

brkello (642429) | more than 7 years ago | (#15971230)

But if you look at all the games that have been "successful" lately, they are basically sequels or taking a genre and doing it better. HL2, CivIV, WoW (not a sequel, but is the best MMORPG to date -- well, most popular in any case), etc etc. To be a success, a game needs to be enjoyable and pay attention to detail. This is true if it is a Wii game or a 360 game. To take games in a new direction has a lot of risk. Even great games get overlooked if all the variables don't fall in to place. I honestly don't care if a game is innovative. I just care that it is done well.

Things are not so simple. (1, Insightful)

MaWeiTao (908546) | more than 7 years ago | (#15971245)

I disagree with Miyamoto's statement that developers have come to a dead-end. Gaming is far from having it a dead-end.

Gaming may be a bit stagnant, but that's the fault of excessive budgets, marketing departments and the gamers themselves who seem to thrive on more of the same.

It definitely isn't because of technological limitations and an unconventional controller isn't going to change everything. The Wii controller allows for some new variations on gameplay but ultimately it's just another control device. What I've seen for the Wii thus far takes existing genres and merely provides a new control scheme. The DS is the same. It hasn't really innovated gameplay, it just introduced gameplay previously nonexistant in the console world. Many of those DS games feel like little more than glorified flash games.

Which brings me to something else... I don't think credit is being given where it's due. The true innovators have been Flash and indie game developers. They're the ones who've really introduced new concepts and have improved existing concepts. There's a lot of crap out there, but the good stuff truly stands out. And the relative simplicity and easy accessibility has allowed Flash games to be popular amongst non-gamers.

One device that has really enabled this kind of gameplay has been the mouse. It's more precise than almost anything else out there and it's very simply to use. Put a mouse in the most inept person's hand and they'll figure out how it works rather quickly. I doubt the Wii controller will even have that kind of ease of use.

This is not to discount Nintendo. They certainly know what they're doing. First of all, they were smart distinguish themselves from the competitors. And secondly, they wisely they've been focusing on gameplay. They brought that intuitive gameplay to consoles.

Whether it pays off in the long run remains to be seen. The average gamer may be drawn to Nintendo, but attractive non-gamers is far from certain. These are the kinds of people who I expect who would have more experience with PCs than they do with conoles. Spending $50 on a game is a far cry from spending $200+ on a console and then another $50 on a game. Additionally, given that there is so much gaming to be had online for free they may be even more reluctant to spend money especially if they realize they wont have much time to play anyway.

Japan doesn't make for a good comparison with the rest of the world simply because more age groups there are open to new technologies. You don't see middle-aged men anywhere in the world reading comic books on trains like you do in Japan. It's only natural that many more older people there would be buying these consoles. People elsewhere might find a particular game curious, but whether that's another to motivate them to actually go out and spend the money is another story.

Also, keep in mind that there are quite a few people out there who really do want more of the same old crap. I know quite a few people who will immediately dismiss a game if it doesn't have the latest graphics, isn't a FPS or doesn't have an adult theme. There is a reason American companies keep pumping out FPS and sports games, just like there's a reason Japanese companies keep pumping out RPGs and fighting games.

Re:Lack of CPU power on the Wii could became an is (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15972904)

I really don't know because I (like everyone on this message board) don't know how powerful the Wii is, I can only speculate; looking at the form factor, cost and manufacturing process I personally suspect a 1GHz to 2GHz PowerPC 970MP based CPU (theoritically, 5 to 10 times as powerful as the Gekko; in real world applications probably closer to 2.5 to 5 times as powerful though). In this power range you could (probably) include many of the features of Euphoria but (maybe) not everything. Just remember LucasArts could easily have some other reasons why it is not on the Wii.

Re:Things are not so simple. (1)

leland242 (736905) | more than 7 years ago | (#15973001)

Agreed, and I'm a thrifty PC gamer, so I never have the latest and greatest hardware.

However, your argument was that it cost $50 for a new PC game, but consoles were $50 plus the price of a console. You aren't factoring in the cost of the computer.

I think there are very few individuals who only use a computer for gaming and nothing else - so most folks have a PC for "internet stuff" and gaming.

Your average gamer, the Madden 07 type, is not going to build thier own customized PC - they are going to buy the latest Aliendellware.

I just can't believe that PC gaming is cheaper than console gaming...

(I should add the words "right now" to the end of that sentence since the PS3 might change things).

Re:Bunch of hypocrites (1)

BigCheese (47608) | more than 7 years ago | (#15973265)

I do believe Duck Hunt is one of the planned games.

I doubt I'll be as good at the new one as the old one. I used to be able to roll the round counter a few times.

Re:Lack of CPU power on the Wii could became an is (1)

Knuckles (8964) | more than 7 years ago | (#15973922)

One core problem I see with the Wii is its lack of CPU power. Now you might say that CPU power isn't that important for a fun game

Well, I would say that
1 - Nintendo has not released hardware specs yet
2 - We've seen in-game videos and they certainly look good enough for me

Re:Lack of CPU power on the Wii could became an is (1)

grumbel (592662) | more than 7 years ago | (#15974068)

2 - We've seen in-game videos and they certainly look good enough for me

This is not about look, but about "feel". Sure a Wii game can look good, the question however is will it behave realistically, ie. will there be physic simulation to handle your Wiimote sword swings and such? No matter how good the graphics are, if the feedback you get from the game world is nothing more then a pre-scripted animation all you Wiimote sword swings will be basically useless, since they don't influence the world in an indivulial way.

Its true that Nintendo hasn't released any final specs, however so far there is nothing even hinting that it will come anywhere near XBox360 or PS3, neither in GPU or CPU power. And the demonstrated Wii games so far arn't exactly impressive either Mario, Zelda and Metroid look a bit better then on the Cube, but not really that much better, so Wii speed will be better then Gamecube, but not that much better, especially since Wii games already should be a lot more optimized then XBox360 or PS3 games due to the familiar single-processor architecture of the Wii vs the multi core architecture of the others.

Re:Lack of CPU power on the Wii could became an is (1)

Knuckles (8964) | more than 7 years ago | (#15974197)

This is not about look, but about "feel". Sure a Wii game can look good, the question however is will it behave realistically

Sorry, I realize that I expressed myself poorly. What I meant was the realism of animations and such. I'm not interested so much in simulation, I want games. I work between 40 and 80 hours a week at my job, I don't need another 20 as a spy or managing a theme park. Not everything has to be life-like.

ie. will there be physic simulation to handle your Wiimote sword swings and such? (...)

That's a good point though, regardless of what I have said above. Still, they haven't released specs. At this point I trust Nintendo that they are not stupid - if one company knows about gameplay, it's Nintendo. Also, IIRC their statement that they haven't revealed all features yet still stands (the Leipzig press conference, despite all the hype, was a bore). There were once rumours about a physics chip too and, again IIRC, some Nintendo person when asked didn't categorically deny it.

Then again, your suspicion might be correct.

Its true that Nintendo hasn't released any final specs, however so far there is nothing even hinting that it will come anywhere near XBox360 or PS3, neither in GPU or CPU power.

Of course. Nothing else was ever said. There are several things that have to be taken into account though (e.g., HD, insane complexity of PS3).

And the demonstrated Wii games so far arn't exactly impressive either Mario, Zelda and Metroid look a bit better then on the Cube, but not really that much better, so Wii speed will be better then Gamecube, but not that much better, especially since Wii games already should be a lot more optimized then XBox360 or PS3 games due to the familiar single-processor architecture of the Wii vs the multi core architecture of the others.

I guess we'll have to wait until TGS :) I would rate the improvements I've seen a bit higher than you, but can't completely disagree. Then again, I was at Leipzig Game Convention today and while there was no Wii I got to see many games and trailers (a new MGS4 among other PS3 stuff). I thought the PS3 stuff looked very uneven, some was amazing, some was a let-down, and this even within the same game. 360 looked very good if done well, if a little glossy. But the important thing: an hour into the event I didn't care anymore.

Re:Lack of CPU power on the Wii could became an is (1)

aweraw (557447) | more than 7 years ago | (#15976124)

ie. will there be physic simulation to handle your Wiimote sword swings and such?

Word has it (unconfirmed of course) that the Wii houses a Physics processing unit... this is only speculation at this stage in the game, but I do seem to remember reading interviews with a few developers who are working on Wii titles, and they mentioned working with the PPU.

To further this speculation, I would say that if there is a PPU, we can expect all sorts of cool rag-doll-esque physics effects in coming Wii games.

Re:Lack of CPU power on the Wii could became an is (1)

swerk (675797) | more than 7 years ago | (#15974055)

There are a lot of ways to solve the various dynamic action problems, some of which would be very CPU-intensive but some that wouldn't.

For example, Project HAMMER looks like it does a lot of what you're talking about, turning freeform controller movement into big action/reaction stuff on-screen. There's probably not an ultra-sophisticated physics engine calculating impacts, modeled using complex inertia and friction attributes, but rather much simpler algorithms that plug the angle and velocity of the user's input into simple functions that change the action onscreen. Some kind of middle ground between all-out dynamic collision computation and a collection of preset animations.

There are plenty of other possibilities too. Watching the videos of Super Mario Galaxy, I can't reconcile what's going on with any physics engine I know of. The game's world is its own crazy and wonderful thing where yes, you have direct and precise control that translates into unique reactions, but all on its own terms - outside the "physics calculations are complciated" world we're familiar with.

Nothing's stopping a developer from using an internally simpler approach and mapping it to a realistic game world, either. Even on GameCube, Resident Evil 4 looked realistic but used very primitive methods of collision detection and motion. You could shoot down an axe that was thrown at you, not because the physics were perfectly modeled or because the aiming mechanics were perfectly precise, but actually because they weren't. It still felt real though, thanks to the game's presentation and style. I bet we'll see plenty of stuff that looks for the world like every action is completely dynamic, whether or not it actually is. Don't underestimate the power of faking it! :^)

Re:Lack of CPU power on the Wii could became an is (1)

grumbel (592662) | more than 7 years ago | (#15974403)

For example, Project HAMMER looks like it does a lot of what you're talking about,

Project Hammer actually looks like a regual current generation hack&slay game, it doesn't seem to make all that much use of the Wiimote, you juggle around a bit here and there with the Wiimote, but all stuff gets translated into generic standard actions, at least as far as I can tell from the few videos that are around from the game.

SuperMarioGalaxy doesn't look different either, juggling the controller lets Mario spin and beside from that you can click around on the screen with a mouse-pointer that you control with the Wiimote.

I am thinking more about the games that actually allow you to directly control your weapon, ie. Red Steel as a lot of people imagined it and how it not turned out to be (no real sword swinging in that game so far, just generic actions that have little todo with your actual movements). Now ResidentEvil4 looks of course nice, but its really more sidestepping the issue then solving it. The core issue is simply that direct control would require more sophisticated physical simulation on the game site, one can of course 'solve' that by not allowing direct control in the first place, which all games so far seem to do, but it really means that the Wii would fall flat of what a lot of people expect it to be. Time will tell how it really turns out.

Re:Lack of CPU power on the Wii could became an is (1)

swerk (675797) | more than 7 years ago | (#15974642)

I'll admit the jury's out on HAMMER. It looks to me like there's more going on than prescripted animations, but I could be wrong or overly-optimistic or something.

Mario Galaxy includes some funky gravity hubs that, when pointed to, attract Mario according to the game's own playful sense of physics. More interestingly, though, hop onto a springy tree-looking thing and you can use the Wiimote to slingshot Mario off of it, quite accurately aiming and determining force within the game's own world. That's the sort of thing I was talking about - real 1:1 action/reaction with the controller, without the need for complex real-world physics.

The Red Steel developers say they're working again on revamped control that's more like what you're talking about. Whether that will come to fruition versus their generic gesturing system, we can only hope. I seriously doubt it was a CPU issue though. Bigger problems arise from the fact that you can swing out in front of you even if you're facing a wall, and how do you reconcile that in the game without putting in too many limitations or hacks that interfere with the 1:1 Wiimote to virtual sword movement.

Are "sidestepping" the direct control issue and "solving" it really mutually exclusive? I'm not convinced that a huge amount of CPU cycles need to be spent to result in physical simulation that looks and feels pretty damn good, even if the underlying algorithms are actually not very sophisticated. Asteroids felt like it understood inertia, momentum, and angular collisions, but what that Atari 2600 was doing under the hood was much more simplistic.

I'll agree that an easy way out for the developers would be to say, "Well, let's just put in a bunch of pre-scripted animations and build a gesture system to sort-of match - there's not enough CPU for a proper physics engine". But I think a more clever developer would be more tempted to take that direct input and map it to some flexible and well-designed reactions that feel just right 99% of the time. ...It's not even that gesturing is bad, we just want our light saber game, dammit! :^)

Re:Lack of CPU power on the Wii could became an is (1)

grumbel (592662) | more than 7 years ago | (#15975098)

That's the sort of thing I was talking about - real 1:1 action/reaction with the controller, without the need for complex real-world physics.

Yep, that sounds exactly like the thing I want to have, even without all the dynamic animation stuff that would at least be a step in the right direction. Wiimote really needs to map 1:1 into the game, else a lot of the intuitiveness could be lost. ProjectHammer for example looks like it has a quite large delay between swinging the Wiimote and actually swinging the Hammer in the game, most likly because time is wasted to detect the Wiimote stroke and then again to launch the apropriat pregenerated action, so the game always lacks behind your actions. A real 1:1 mapping from Wiimote to Hammer could of course reduce the delay to pretty much zero.

Whether that will come to fruition versus their generic gesturing system, we can only hope. I seriously doubt it was a CPU issue though.

Its also a development issue. LucasArts Euphoria is still rather new and beside some tech demos we havn't seen anything actually using it and the first game to release using it won't be available for quite a few month, maybe a year or more. No idea if other developers have even started implementing similar stuff. So yep, its more then just lack of CPU, but I also doubt that you can do that stuff without quite a bit of free CPU, since it goes bejoint just the classic box-physics and contains beside the character behaviour stuff like realistically breaking wood and other materials (it will splinter and break exactly where you hit it).

Are "sidestepping" the direct control issue and "solving" it really mutually exclusive?

I would say so, that of course doesn't stop the Wii from being successfull or the games from being good, but it would rule out quite a few interesting gameplay ideas or at least cut their potential down quite a bit. In the end its of course the gameplay that matters, not the physics engine, but physics engine can play a larger part of the game experince and especially with Euphoria it really looks like it could provide 'nextgen gameplay'. Ok, that is LucasArts marketing speech, but the improvments are similar like the jump from prerendered-3D to realtime-3D, not really obvious at first, but they may change the way games are done quite fundamentally. Ironically of course the XBox360 lacks the controller to really make full use of Euphoria and if the PS3s motion detection is actually up to the task we will see. Will probally take a while till we actually see the true nextgen games, so far, almost everything, no matter what console, is still pretty much the same as the last gen and developers, as always, need to actually figure out what to do with all the new power and controls.

Re:Nintendo Treading On Thin Ice (1)

Stormwatch (703920) | more than 7 years ago | (#15974219)

How about a game in which you don't fight ANYTHING? I realise the main problem might be the gamers themselves: "What fun would THAT be?" Will Wright and Chris Sawyer have proven that it CAN be fun
You forgot the Miller brothers [wikipedia.org] , you insensitive clod!

Re:Bunch of hypocrites (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#15979418)

So long as I can shoot the dog... I'm happy.
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