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Who created the Warforged?

Hemos posted more than 8 years ago

83

d.3.l.t.r.3.3 writes "James Jones (Turbine), declared on an interview at MMORPG.COM that D&D Online and Turbine basically built the world of Eberron introducing and inventing many elements that, in reality, were already present in the Campaign Settings since early design, like the Warforged race. Since MMORPG dodged the bullet when a well informed Eberron fan pointed out the glaring errors, I asked Keith Baker (Eberron Game Designer) to clarify the matter. He promptly gave his own opinion, confirming that Warforged were his own original creation and that the words of James Jones were a poor choice. He also doctored the Turbine staff about what a Campaign Setting really is. The inevitable conclusion of the article is: how much can online gaming sites be trusted, when they are protecting their own sponsor's image?"

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One more question ... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15992933)

Who cares?

Editors (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15992954)

Do your job and clean up that summary. It's atrocious.

I have a question... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15992969)

If a tree falls in the woods on top of a D&D nerd and he screams...does anyone care?

Grammer/Information? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15992971)

I have to say I can't understand this post at all. I play Eberon/DnD and i still cant work it out!

Re:Grammer/Information? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15993216)

I think this is alluding to a squabble wherein various persons are simultaneously taking credit for inventing elements of the Eberron setting.

To me, that's like trying to take credit for making a lump of poo, but that's largely a matter of personal taste, I suppose. I've been making my own campaign settings since the "blue box" edition, and I'm underwhelmed by WotC's contribution to D&D's canon settings.

Re:Grammer/Information? (1)

dmatos (232892) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993581)

Hey, I'm proud of some of my lumps of poo. I'll even leave them in the toilet for my wife to admire at a later date and time. There's nothing more gratifying than squeezing off a twice-round-the-bowl.

This is painful to read (5, Insightful)

Goaway (82658) | more than 8 years ago | (#15992979)

Besides the awkward and nearly unreadable sentence structures in the article, 'dodged the bullet', 'doctored' and 'inevitable conclusion' do not mean what the submitter seems to think they mean.

If the editors won't actually edit articles (to keep Slashdot "more real", apparently), how about just not posting articles that are incomprehensible gibberish?

Re:This is painful to read (1)

Chelloveck (14643) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993158)

Oh good, I'm not the only one who has trouble with this summary. Really, about all I can make out is that someone is PO'd about someone else stealing some other person's idea, and that it all relates to D&D. Next you'll be trying to tell me that Gary Gygax didn't invent the hobbits^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hhalflings or something.

Re:This is painful to read (1)

FacePlant (19134) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993168)

If the editors won't actually edit articles (to keep Slashdot "more real", apparently), how about just not posting articles that are incomprehensible gibberish?

You must be new here...

Re:This is painful to read (1)

elrous0 (869638) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993273)

In all fairness, many of the posters and commenters on /. are not native English speakers. As long as they can get their points across, I'm pretty forgiving. Though you are right in that /. editors should probably consider actually EDITING the submissions before they go live (esp on the front page).

-Eric

Re:This is painful to read (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15993401)

If you're not a native speaker of the language, it's probably best not to use figures of speach like "dodged the bullet" and "doctored" unless you're sure you know what they mean. What the submitter wanted to say would have been better handled with literal language.

Re:This is painful to read (1)

the grace of R'hllor (530051) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993871)

Bull shit. I am not a native English speaker. I have never been to a country where people speak English natively, nor a region where it is a common second language.

I speak the language fluently. I don't know all appropriate idioms for every situation, but I have a pretty good idea of when I am using one, and care enough about what I write to look up words and phrases so I don't look like a complete idiot (like the use of the word 'idiom' here). If someone else does not take the time to do the same, then why should I take the time to read them?

Put another way: Your goal as a writer (any kind of writer) is to carry your message across. To carry your message across well, we standardize on certain things like the meaning of words and phrases. If you can't hold to that standard, your message-transfer is hindered, and you're a bad writer.

Re:This is painful to read (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15997296)

FUCK YOU PAKI SCUM AND POST TO SLASHDOT.PK LEAVE YOUR ENGRISH HOME WITH YOUR UGLY FAT WIFE WEARING HER COCKSUCKING BURKA

Go Linux! Go GNU/Linux!

What's not to like when one is using linux? I just did ls -a and learned how to cd into a dir.

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Nulla nibh eros, sodales commodo, viverra sit amet, adipiscing pretium, ipsum. Nullam fringilla mi ac turpis. Vivamus mattis consectetuer lectus. Pellentesque ut tortor euismod dui pulvinar porttitor. Maecenas adipiscing tellus sit amet magna. Proin quam. Vestibulum dolor est, elementum ut, semper a, adipiscing vel, mi. Duis non enim. Suspendisse nec augue eu neque dapibus ornare. Nulla pharetra tortor eu purus. Sed at eros id nibh hendrerit rutrum. Curabitur justo.

Re:This is painful to read (1)

the grace of R'hllor (530051) | more than 8 years ago | (#16000932)

Yeah. I'm Dutch by the way, and you should seek professional help.

Re:This is painful to read (1)

Goaway (82658) | more than 8 years ago | (#15994142)

I posted the original complaint, and I am not a native speaker. I forgive simplistic language and occassional grammatical mistakes easily, but using idioms you don't understand is nothing but stupidity on the part of the writer.

Re:This is painful to read (1)

Chelloveck (14643) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993291)

Here's a new version of the summary which I think is easier to read...

Who created the Warforged?

This morning my attention was captured by this article on MMORPG. In particular by the fact Turbine said they "built" Eberron and was told that it was recommended by Wizards of the game world, and were included in the MMO was even considered; they've always been part of the clear connections TO the existing world, not as something new. Xen'drik has always INTENTIONALLY been left undeveloped, so each DM can put what he wants there. So that part is correct. The reason the MMO was even considered; they've always been part of the setting. Poor choice of words? Maybe.

Thank you, Markov [eblong.com] .

Re:This is painful to read (1)

d.3.l.t.r.3.3 (892347) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993324)

Thanks.

Re:This is painful to read (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15993950)

Um, that's no better.

Does no one learn English composition in school anymore? (Or, rather, "Is English composition no longer taught in school?", since passive voice is all the rage now.)

Re:This is painful to read (1)

Dan East (318230) | more than 8 years ago | (#15994423)

Here's a new version of the summary which I think is easier to read...

I really hope you were trying to be funny.

Dan East

Re:This is painful to read (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15993417)

Really... What the hell is this guy even trying to say? I play D&D AND Eberron and I have no clue.

Re:This is painful to read (1)

Meccanica (980734) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993472)

Errgh... yeah. Hey! That's not a conclusion at all! It's a question!

BabbleFish to the rescue (5, Funny)

MarkusQ (450076) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993556)

Besides the awkward and nearly unreadable sentence structures in the article, 'dodged the bullet', 'doctored' and 'inevitable conclusion' do not mean what the submitter seems to think they mean.

If the editors won't actually edit articles (to keep Slashdot "more real", apparently), how about just not posting articles that are incomprehensible gibberish?

This is a common problem with text that has been hand translated from another language (in this case, I would suspect either Java or Telugu). I have found that running it through BabbleFish (say, into German and back again) cleans up most the problems. What the article summary was trying to say was:

"James Jones (turbine), on an interview explains on MMORPG.COM that D&D on-line and turbine invent generally the world of Eberron many elements presenting and established, those, in which reality, already into the campaign attitudes were present since early Design, like the Warforged running. Since MMORPG, which was avoided to the rifle bullet, as a well informed Eberron fan underlined the shining disturbances, asked I Keith baker (Eberron play designer) the affair to explain. It passed immediately its own judgement and confirmed that Warforged were its own original creation and that the words of James Jones were a bad choice. It treated also the turbine staff over, which campaign really adjusts is. The inevitable summary of the article is: how much are trusted to box of on-line play places of assembly, if they protect picture of their own promoter?"

Hope that clarifies things. Feel free to use this trick on your own whenever you run accross text like this in the future.

--MarkusQ

Why is this even a question? (5, Informative)

mollace (751119) | more than 8 years ago | (#15992981)

The Warforged appears as a playable race in the Eberron sourcebook, published by Wizards of the Coast in 2004. I remember reading about the Warforged in promotional materials and on WotC's website before that. There's no need to even bother Keith Baker about this.

Re:Why is this even a question? (1)

dbIII (701233) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993322)

And "Full Metal Alchemist" came before that, and it was unashamedly a dervative product itself. This argument is as ludicrous as that idiot that went to court over the idea of casting Madonna in a remake.

Fantasy games are so effective because they are based on symbols we already know and are far enough from reality that we can just deal with the symbols.

Re:Why is this even a question? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15993830)

But the point seems to be that Turbine is taking credit for adding something to Eberron that was there from the very beginning before they even got involved.

Except that, clicking through to the blogpost and reading the quote, it doesn't seem to say that at all - the quote reads:

"The continent of Xen'drik had yet to have lore fleshed out and Turbine was basically given the ability to build their own world, including a new playable race - the Warforged. Currently, the world that Turbine has built has been integrated into existing lore by Wizards and the world of Stormreach has crossed over to the Pen & Paper Realm."

I read that as Turbine was given the ability to build their own "world" for the game (true, Xen'drick is a blank slate for the most part - designed that way intentionally by the folks at WotC) and were given a new "playable race" to flesh out (also true). The sentence is poorly written, but that's how I read it.

The last sentence is even true - in the Xen'drik sourcebook the online info about Stormreach is incorporated into the world.

In other words, this seems to be poor writing mixed with someone blowing a story out of proportion - a typical occurance in the MMORPG world, it seems.

Re:Why is this even a question? (1)

shinma (106792) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993945)

"to build their own world, including a new playable race - the Warforged"

That implies to me that they "built" the new playable race themselves.

Re:Why is this even a question? (1)

Shilkanni (803384) | more than 8 years ago | (#15997411)

I think it's a reasonable way to parse the sentance:
  • "Xen'drik (continent)" > "yet to have lore fleshed out"
  • "Turbine" > "able to built own world (within Xen'drik)"
  • "own world (within Xen'drik)" > "included Warforged"
  • "Warforged" > "new playable race"

I think the sentance clearly states that Xen'drik was a blank slate given to Turbine, they created their own world within this continent, and that the Warforged were part of that creation.

Now, I'm hearing this last part is untrue, so we're left with an article which is either deceptive or badly written.

Who/what are the Warforged? (1)

Jonah Hex (651948) | more than 8 years ago | (#15992987)

OK, I admit it, I stopped playing AD&D back when we still used the 2.0 editions with Unearthed Arcana. Our little group had no time to learn 3, and our DM moved to the middle of nowhere. So who or what are the Warforged? Do the pretty pictures in the article showing some iron golem like being and some mysterious red-eyed creature represent this race? Would an old AD&D fan like myself with only a few hours a week to spare actually like DDO?

Jonah HEX

Re:Who/what are the Warforged? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15993016)

They're magic robots that are self-aware.

Re:Who/what are the Warforged? (1)

halivar (535827) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993248)

They're magic robots that are self-aware.

You mean... they're Zodar?

Re:Who/what are the Warforged? (1)

Impy the Impiuos Imp (442658) | more than 8 years ago | (#15996023)

Let's face it: Warforged are a sub-standard, wimpy golem that can be easily mass-produced.

Re:Who/what are the Warforged? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15993604)

The Warforged [wikipedia.org] are constructs that were built to fight in the Last War on Eberron [wikipedia.org] . When the War ended, the warforged were freed/abandoned.

Dungeon & Dragons Online very brief review (3, Interesting)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993862)

I was in the beta and played it. Now I am not that good a player so it might be me but for the most part it was an extremely simplistic RPG with passable graphics and some astroucious mission design.

The simple problem? Health. As you no doubt know not all classes are equal in D&D especially at the first few levels. D&D makes up for the weakness of some classes in combat by being by nature a multiplayer game. The warrior, the mage and the healer, one player to take the hits, one player to do the damage and one player to rule^H^H^H^Hheal them all.

CRPG's typically are one-player affairs, so they have to adjust themselves to allow this single player to survive even if they have choosen a class that isn't survivable. One way is too be liberal with health potions. Just keep chucking them back and hope that eventually your pathetic rogue will actually kill the enemy.

So what does DDO do? Put all the health potion vendors BEYOND the beginner area. This lead to a lot of players choosing the lesser combat/healing classes getting stuck. If you used the 2/3 potions you got at the start to early you just couldn't survive later dungeons.

No you couldn't group with a healer or tank either, a D&D MMORPG game with NO early grouping. Says it all really.

I was in the late beta and for this design decision to be implemented still tells me everytbing about the game I need to know. Neither am I alone. DDO commercial success is severely lacking. There is a reason WoW sells so well. Not because it is so good or so original, in many ways it is just a cheap Everquest 2 clone but with a shit load of style and class added. WoW is if you like an iPod, not a better music player, not a more capable one but one that looks good and just fucking works.

DDO is not. Play it, but be sure you know you are playing a D&D game designed by people who forbid low levels to group. A MMORPG, with no grouping.

A MMORPG where I had more cash at level 3 then at level 30 in WoW but nothing to spend it on.

Oh and the warforged are a created race that is very very ugly so I didn't play one since I only play pretty girls. Basically they are a strong warrior race that is healed by mages instead of priests.

But no, an old D&D fan probably won't like DDO. It just ain't anything like it. Neverwinter Nights might be more up your ally. D&D Pen&Paper is to me all about the dungeon master who is a human and who can improvise on the spot. No good dungeon master is going to allow the party to be wiped out in the first dungeon or force all the players to play the first few levels all alone.

A human dungeon master is like a writer, he puts the actors of his play in constant peril but also makes sure the cavalery arrives just in the nick of time. A great dungeon master makes you feel like you escaped by the skin of your nose but not actually get killed. That is the difference between computer and human controlled RPG's. Humans care.

Re:Dungeon & Dragons Online very brief review (2, Insightful)

AuMatar (183847) | more than 8 years ago | (#15994926)

So what does DDO do? Put all the health potion vendors BEYOND the beginner area. This lead to a lot of players choosing the lesser combat/healing classes getting stuck. If you used the 2/3 potions you got at the start to early you just couldn't survive later dungeons.

No you couldn't group with a healer or tank either, a D&D MMORPG game with NO early grouping. Says it all really.


THere were 3 quests you couldn't group for. One was a learn the interface quest with 3 CR .1 spiders. THe second was a quest with 1 mob. THe third was difficult, but easier even for a rogue than made out. There was a healing shrine halfway through most people missed. In addition, you could get healing pots on noobie isle from doing the training rooms. Furthermore, the quest has since been nerfed, the CR1 kobolds made CR .1. After this, you could group for every quest.

So if you're complaining about no grouping, you didn't beat the 1st 3 quests. Try actually playing the game, then you can make valid criticism. Until then, your points are null.

A MMORPG where I had more cash at level 3 then at level 30 in WoW but nothing to spend it on.


Did you do Waterworks and get into the market? In there are brokers where you can buy potions, wands, and magical weapons/items. Waterworks is a level 2 quest, and you don't even need to do the last 2 parts to get harbor access.

A human dungeon master is like a writer, he puts the actors of his play in constant peril but also makes sure the cavalery arrives just in the nick of time. A great dungeon master makes you feel like you escaped by the skin of your nose but not actually get killed. That is the difference between computer and human controlled RPG's. Humans care.


SO you don't want a real challenge- you want to be able to screw up and hope for the DM to take mercy on you. You'd never make it in my games.

In short, you played the game for probably under a day, and weren't good enough to hack it. D&D, unlike WoW PvE or EQ, requires real skill. Thank you for leaving, it makes finding a good group that much easier.

Re:Dungeon & Dragons Online very brief review (2, Informative)

Hellpop (451893) | more than 8 years ago | (#16004532)

Amen. Or is that "astroucious" of me to agree with AuMatar?

Everything I despise about EQ and WoW is missing in DDO. I don't need to learn to fish, or brew or basket weave. All that inane crap is gone in DDO, it is stripped down to the purity of quests that require varying degrees of communication and teamwork. For the majority of antisocial loner MMO fanboys that must be unbearable. The built in voice chat even gets rid of most of the insipid l33tsp34k, you have to decipher in other games.
I am a very "astroucious" person to enjoy such an "astroucious" game.

Re:Who/what are the Warforged? (2, Interesting)

Red Warrior (637634) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993979)

The warforged are golems who are A) Intelligent and B) available as a player character race. With some good campaign world backstory. They were built as war machines and ended up with free will. As you would expect, some "built in" AC, don't heal naturally. Must be repaired, etc.

I also quit playing back in the AD&D days, and have just recently started in a 3.5 campaign. The ruleset and gameplay are much improved, in all aspects, IMO. Much more flexable. And a lot of the "rules just to have rules" have been removed (racial limits to class levels, etc). The world of Eberron is particularly well done, especially in setting/backstory. I haven't played DDO, so can't comment on that.
---
To the question that might be buried somewhere in TFA, *I* invented the warforged. When I was playing origional (blue book, boxed set) D&D. In '78. I remember encountering a golem and thinking "It would be cool if I could play one of THOSE!!!".

So, there you have it. Please send my royalty checks to.....
---
Seriously, there is gonna be a lot of arguing, especially of the "prior art" type, about this. However, it is really a question of "obviousness". I would be surprised if there were more than 20% of D&D campaigns where at least one person didn't think of the exact same thing.

I'm not taking anything away from WOTC (the D20 system in general, and the new D&D rules rock), or the creators of Eberron (one of the best campaign settings I have seen, period.).

Re:Who/what are the Warforged? (1)

JorDan Clock (664877) | more than 8 years ago | (#15995511)

It's not a matter of "I came up with it first." It's a matter of the Warforged being specifically included in the outline of the campaign setting submitted to the contest that Eberron was born from. They are a specific race included in the campaign setting that was later adapted to DDO. But after reading the original article on MMORPG that this blog post is about, it's basically a case of a single "fan" getting his panties in a twist over a poorly worded sentence at the end of an otherwise uneventful, informative article. This guy is just pretending like he's calling them out on something to create a hullabaloo (You will never have enough chances in your life to use that word.) and look like he revealed some kind of sinister thought process at Turbine.

Re:Who/what are the Warforged? (2, Informative)

Serzen (675979) | more than 8 years ago | (#15995033)

Other people have mentioned what the Warforged are, so I won't touch that. Another responder gave his (presumably) own summary of the game, but I'm going to go ahead and add my own.

First, if you're an old AD&D guy, the new 3.5 rules may be somewhat rough to get past your craw: No more THAC0, no more race-specific classes, all new classes of spellcasters, bizzare new combat rules. 3rd Edition was built with miniature play in mind, and it really shows in the combat rules.

If you can get past the rules changes, DDO is a game with at decent graphics, and usually good audio. Not great, the color palette runs heavy into the brown range and the textures are uninspired, but they serve their purpose. Dungeons will, from time to time, have voice overs by a "DM" that add a nice touch, and while the music that plays whilst you're on a crawl is usually good, the music that fills Inns is often grating.

And you're going to spend a lot of time in Inns. The other poster pointed out how rare healing potions are, but didn't bring up the fact that you can't heal--without spells or potions--while you're in a dungeon unless you find a--single-use--rest shrine. You can't set up a camp and sleep to regain a few hit points, or to relearn a spell. Inns are the only way to recharge.

Combat in the game is real-time, and while it's disgustingly difficult sometimes (when's the last time you needed to roll a 17 to hit a kobold?), it's handled well. That is to say it's the most 'realistic' combat in an MMO, in that strategy is valuable and rewarded. Unfortunately, it doesn't prevent the combat from becoming a click-fest.

Be prepared to find a group to play with. The game is not designed for single-players, period. Many people will argue that tabletop D&D requires at least two players anyway, but the difference is that in tabletop games, the dungeons can be scaled to groups from 1 to 10 or more. In DDO, most of the dungeons I ran needed 3 people if you wanted a chance to get through without dying, 4 to be safe.

All quests are dungeons, also, so if you like variety, well, you've got sewers and cellars, sometimes a warehouse. When you're not in a dungeon, and wandering the streets, the streets are empty, except for 'vendors'. You can't pick pockets on the streets, or break into shops, or arrest ruffians who are doing the same. You can just walk to either the Inn, the store or the dungeon.

This all sounds pretty damning, and combined with an ugly, often unintuitive interface and the difficulty of getting together a pickup group, it really is. The only redeeming factor are the dungeons themselves. Every class is useful when you're down in the hole. Rogues have a purpose, from picking locks to disarming traps. DDO is the only MMO I've played that makes those skills useful.

If you've only got a few hours per week, and have a dedicated group of friends who will play with you, it can be fun, but Neverwinter Nights is a better choice: less expensive, no fee to play, the ability to save your game when you need to log off for the night (and pick up where you left off) and unlimited ability to innovate, thanks to the toolkit and the modules that have already been written. NWN2 is slated for mid-October release right now, as well, with even more promise than the first. I and my group of gaming buddies, eagerly await its release.

Likewise, NCSoft is supposed to release Dungeon Runners before the end of the year. Free to download, free to play, the game looks like WoW, DDO and Diablo II had some kind of crazy lovechild. The designers have said that you'll have to pay for 'premium' content, but that the game is prefectly playable without any of the pay-for stuff.

Re:Who/what are the Warforged? (1)

kaladorn (514293) | more than 8 years ago | (#15997883)

Warforged:

A race of sentient golems might be close. Manufactured mobile semi-autonomous weapons for a nasty war, created in massive "Creation Forges" from complex arcane patterns called "Creation Patterns". At some point, they developed full autonomy and sentience (or is that sapience?... ). The war, which raged for a long, long time (tens or hundreds of years?) is now over (2 years ago or so). So we have all these sentient warriors (specialized in some cases as juggernauts, scouts, wizards, etc) of metal and organic (they're a hybrid, but not exactly like a cyborg - the organic could be stuff like wood)... and they are free (ostensibly) by decree in some (all?) places, but don't really have a purpose anymore.

They're sort of like the character most 'AI' becomes in cyberpunk novels or movies (like AI or I,Robot) - creations which are now arguably as smart as their creators, perhaps even tougher, and who have to find their own raison d'etre in the new world.

Some manifestation of that is not good (many support the Lord of the Blades, a Warforged leader who seems to have a somewhat genocidal attitudes towards the pink squishy ones). And yet, many of the warforged have become productive members (if lower caste in some cases) of their societies, still serving a purpose. They end up working as mercenaries, gaurds, adventurers, and sometimes (rarely) in things in no way related to their past warlike uses.

They are interesting, because they aren't just exactly humans with pointy ears. They are notably different in physical requirements and if you want to get into the RP part of RPG, they would have different perceptions of society, of their place in the world, and even of normal physical reality than humans or even pointy-eared tree-huggers (Elves). They make for a fun RP challenge and one of the most interesting additions to a world in a long time, IMO.

In a current Eberron campaign, we have a party of warforged. I'm running a Bard with the handle "Heavy Metal" (okay, yeah, groan...). It's a different kind of experience to a human party - healing magic works half strength on us, we're seen oddly by most softies, and we still try to go out and do the right thing, when we can sort of figure out what that would be.

Eberron is also a world of pulp-ish stories - detective stories, mysteries, ancient temples and sites to be explored a la Indianna Jones, plots and conspiracies by secret agencies out for world domination, the whole nine yards. And is a high-magic world, with lightning rails, fire elemental bound airships, teleportation services for the well-to-do, elemental binding for a lot of things (Heavy Metal wants a lightning elemental bound into a guitar... yes, an electric guitar... groan again...). It has a very different feel and explores both the issues of 'what would a world be like with a lot of magic' (vs. traditional AD&D worlds) and 'what if nations were more important than race' (Al-Quadim was a bit like this) and 'what would society be like if we had a group of 12 or 13 powerful houses acting like Medeival Guilds'? It aims for high-tension adventure, a cross between Raiders of the Lost Ark and Casablanca with a dash of Three Musketeers thrown in.

Hope that helps.

Undetered by my own ignorance.... (1, Redundant)

unitron (5733) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993005)

I readily admit that my computer expertise when it comes to games extends about as far as free cell, but in the following sentence, "He also doctored the Turbine staff about what a Campaign Setting really is.", should 'doctored' have been 'tutored', or is this another case of me being hopelessly out of touch with current slang?

Re:Undetered by my own ignorance.... (1)

festers (106163) | more than 8 years ago | (#15996425)

Actually, accordning to the most recent slang, I believe the correct translation for that word would be "schooled."

This already happened.. (1)

zyl0x (987342) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993006)

..with World of Warcraft. Apparently the Blood Elves are space pirates who hijacked the Dranei's "dimensional ship." There was so much double-talk going on when they first released the lore. This is just a standard problem that will always pop up when people try to build on other people's stories.

Re:This already happened.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15993217)

Congratulations. Your little whine has nothing to do with anything.

Re:This already happened.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15993299)

And yours has everything to do with nothing. Congratulations!

Re:This already happened.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15993642)

Except for in the case of WoW, Chris Metzen built upon... Chris Metzen's stories. He literally admitted to "forgetting" about what he had wrote in the original lore for the Draenei and origins of the Burning Legion.

Re:This already happened.. (1)

Dachannien (617929) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993844)

Fry: Space pirates?
Leela: You know, like pirates... but in space!

Re:This already happened.. (1)

Impy the Impiuos Imp (442658) | more than 8 years ago | (#15996053)

Fry, lamenting that his brother, 1000 years before, was the first man on Mars: I should have been the first man on Mars! Now I'll never get there.

Leela: You went there this morning. For donuts.

College interns for teh win! (2, Insightful)

RingDev (879105) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993035)

I'm sure there are plenty of would be professional editors out there who would love to get some intern time with /. as an editor. Think about it, you can pay them crap, but they get work experience, and /.ers don't have to spam every post with complaints about the lack of editing.

-Rick

PS: Hiring an editor, even an intern editor, WOULD be news.

Wow! (2, Funny)

Morrigu (29432) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993055)

Wow.

It's only 0818h EDT here, and there's already a completely incomprehensible write-up on Slashdot.

I mean, I played AD&D (2nd Ed w/ liberal additions from whatever 1st Ed source materials we had on hand) for a good solid 10 years plus some play-by-email campaigns afterwards, and I try to keep up with goings-on at WotC and the D&D universe in general, but ... wow.

Puts a whole new meaning into "WTF".

Unreadable (1)

SSGamer (984809) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993128)

I agree, I can't read this crap.

Re:Unreadable (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15993258)

A whole site about how much FF7 sucks, eh? You'd think you'd know quite a bit about reading crap, unless you're only into _writing_ it.

FAG.

Re:Unreadable (1)

SSGamer (984809) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993372)

Who said the site was mine?

Sorry for the horrible summary (5, Informative)

d.3.l.t.r.3.3 (892347) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993313)

I apologize for the horrible summary (since I'm not native english, I sort of expected that). I guess that, or the editor has superpowers, or the summary is comprehensible (aside for the idiomatic fiascos). The point of the summary (and of the article) is: Turbine, one of the major sponsors of MMORPG.COM, tried more or less willingly to gain design credits on a campaign setting they are licensed to use. While many Eberron fans pointed the Warforged discrepancy to the editing staff of MMORPG, they basically ignored them with an official reply, not even bothering to sort things out. So I asked Baker for clarifications, that was kindly enough to work out my apparently poor english and write back an answer that straighten thing out: Turbine has no control over Baker's world. This not what DDO staff said at PAX and it's irritating that to make users believe they did some serious work for their pretty shallow and superficial (at least at start) D&D licensed game they have to steal another designer's work that should have to be the base for their own game setting (like Baker pointed out). End of story. Sorry again.

Re:Sorry for the horrible summary (1)

kafka47 (801886) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993696)

Uh, could you please rephrase that?

(heheh, couldn't resist) :-)

/K

Re:Sorry for the horrible summary (2, Insightful)

kafka47 (801886) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993741)

This not what DDO staff said at PAX and it's irritating that to make users believe they did some serious work for their pretty shallow and superficial (at least at start) D&D licensed game they have to steal another designer's work that should have to be the base for their own game setting (like Baker pointed out).

I'll grant you that this was an unsightly boast on behalf of Turbine. Not giving proper credit, even.

But stealing someone's work? They didn't steal anything. They have been tasked with creating a gameworld based on the Eberron campaign setting. It's a fully licensed effort, on behalf of the copyright holders, Wizards of the Coast.

To say they "stole" Eberron is like saying Peter Jackson "stole" Lord of the Rings when he filmed it.

/K

Re:Sorry for the horrible summary (1)

d.3.l.t.r.3.3 (892347) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993930)

Jackon never took credit saying he created Aragorn or he highly contributed to the official development of the Tolkien's setting. There's a difference, since neither Tolkien Foundation or WOTC licensing programs allows content to flow upwards and strictly assure that products will respect a very specific canon.

Re:Sorry for the horrible summary (1)

kafka47 (801886) | more than 8 years ago | (#15994006)

That's still a far cry from "stealing". Poor choice of words, yes. But they're allowed to make a game using Warforged, because they're a key race within Eberron.

Believe me, Baker has gotten plenty of the credit for the creation of Eberron. In fact, he's credited on the front page of Turbine's DDO Website [ddo.com] .

I'm not sure what you have against DDO, but you're making a far bigger deal out of this than it deserves. Sorry, but that's my opinion.

/K

Re:Sorry for the horrible summary (1)

the grace of R'hllor (530051) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993947)

Dude, it happens. While I posted some vitriol a few posts up, your English isn't THAT horrible.

Anyway, this kind of misrepresentation can't be all that uncommon. You cannot create a game and say "Well, we really made a shallow shell of a game around a solid imaginative core made by someone only related to us by our checkbook. Go us!".

Re:Sorry for the horrible summary (1)

aseth (893952) | more than 8 years ago | (#16001065)

I find it quite likely that the error lies with the MMORPG.COM author. There were numerous mistakes in the featured article - Magic Missiles, for one, aren't dodgable in DDO.

"I questioned James also about the choice of Eberron and was told that it was recommended by Wizards of the Coast. The continent of Xen'drik had yet to have lore fleshed out and Turbine was basically given the ability to build their own world, including a new playable race - the Warforged." is the quote from the article. I wouldn't be surprised if James Jones actually said something along the lines of "We got to have the Warforged as a player character race", rather than "ZOMG I CREATED TEH WARFORGED!!!"

wtf? (1)

f1055man (951955) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993343)

I thought you had to be literate to play D&D.

Re:wtf? (1)

f1055man (951955) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993634)

my apologies, just read the submitters comment. makes much more sense.

MMORPG.COM is a good site (2, Interesting)

WCMI92 (592436) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993361)

It's one of the few that don't kiss the ass of the game publishers, such as SOE. They even have stickied "We are angry at SOE threads" in the SWG forum, for example. The MMORPG SWG forum has become the main refuge for us, as we are free from the harsh censorship and favorites playing on the SOE boards.

(Indeed, the suckups called "Galactic Senators" on the SOE boards get so pissed that we can talk freely there that they come over and troll us).

Re:MMORPG.COM is a good site (2, Interesting)

d.3.l.t.r.3.3 (892347) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993479)

Nobody's saying they are bad (they are pointed as good in a wide number of my posts), just saying that there's always something that cannot assure you gaming sites are super partes in an absolute way.

Also, SOE doesn't run massive advertising on the site. My point is not against the sites but against the political choices you are more or less obliged to take when you are under such circumstances.

I really respected the choice of The Escapist to seek advertising outside the gamedom (mostly) to avoid possible retailations against bad press. Funnily enough most of the readers were and still are aginst not gaming-related advertisements.

Re:MMORPG.COM is not a good site (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15993542)

MMORPG.com sucks. they take money from game developers and skew their ratings. it is a commonly known fact. large producers like SOE does not need MMORPG.com to promo their products. they pay expensive liscense fees for well established brands. that is why you can remain posting on its SWG forum until SOE decides to pay em off.

S.O.P. (1)

cgenman (325138) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993392)

Everyone always takes credit for developing the game. It's a cold-water shower the first time you see your publisher take credit for making the game you're slaving away at, but it's what happens every time. Likewise the developer will take full credit whenever possible for the success of a game, even though it may be deeply related to creative advertising and strokes of distribution genious by the publisher... not to mention them seeing the potential in the design and actually funding the thing. The developers will claim glory for the brilliant art, even though it was all outsourced. The publishers claim glory for online buzz, even though it was thanks to a funny fan video on YouTube. Listening to the presidents of both companies, you'd think they built the thing by hand themselves.

And when a game fails, it's because the other team didn't carry their weight.

It's not related to advertising. It's just S.O.P..

Re:S.O.P. (1)

AcidLacedPenguiN (835552) | more than 8 years ago | (#15994190)

agreed. Just look at EA for an example.

Question: Why should we care about DDO? (1)

wilgibson (933961) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993563)

DDO sucks, their I said it. If someome else hasn't beaten me to it, it's been said now.

I played DDO in the beta, I was part of the head start, and played through til almost module 2. My subscription was paid up til August, I quit playing the first week of June. The game is just bad, and the more Turbine does the more they shy away from Keith Baker's vision of what Eberron is to be like(read the intro to the campaign setting and you'll get the idea) and the more it isn't DnD. About the only good thing this game did was to get me to read the Eberron novels, of which Keith Baker's own Dreaming Dark trilogy flat out makes the Stormreach of DDO look like a horribly knock off. We should all do Eberron and WotC a favor and not play this game, let it fail. That way a decent DnD MMO can be made by a company that isn't trying to grab the WoW crowd!

Re:Question: Why should we care about DDO? (1)

LearningHard (612455) | more than 8 years ago | (#15999267)

Speaking as someone who has extensive experience with Turbine's other MMORPGs. To qualify I played Asheron's Call 2 for about a year and Asheron's Call from beta until the release of WoW...
Even when Turbine has a decent game at release they WILL screw it up in future patches. They will cater to the power gamers and the cheaters more than any group of folks you have ever seen. The stuff that was going on in AC1 was absolutely ridiculous by the time I quit and it has gotten worse since them. Inflation of item power, new character abilities that only the hardcore player could ever hope to access. "Pink" PvP so that the hardcore players could PvP without having to fear losing any of their grotesquely overpowered items that they either crafted or looted.

Enquiring minds want to know... (1)

Gorm the DBA (581373) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993571)

Why in the heck is *anyone* trying to take credit for *any* piece of the unmitigated and unplayable disaster that is DDO?

Seriously, if I was the world designer, I'd be distancing myself from that smoking bombshell as far and as fast as possible. Turbine somehow managed to take what should have been the #1 slam dunk MMORPG franchise, the potential World of Warcraft killer, and turn it into a laughingstock that will quietly fall back into the shadows and be even smaller and less relevant than Puzzle Pirates.

Re:Enquiring minds want to know... (2, Insightful)

Sage Gaspar (688563) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993941)

I thought it was actually a lot of fun. If they'd added more content and maybe made the engine a little bit smoother, I'd probably still be on board now.

D&D definitely isn't slam-dunk though. It and its licensed game are much less relevant to newer generations of gamers. The people who'd be likely to get into it are instead using fantasy MMOs or MUDs as an outlet, whether they're poor substitutes or not. When guilds I've in have had discussions about who plays D&D, usually it's only maybe 10% of the membership, max, and it's vastly skewed towards the 30+ demographic.

I run in very dorky circles, and I've only actually seen D&D played once when I stumbled into a group of acquaintances hiding in the community kitchen. Those are the only four people I know that have ever played a game of D&D. I'd say, bottom line, D&D is the granddaddy, and new gamers know that and have a bit of respect for it in that regard, but they're just not motivated to play it. Lord of the Rings has the potential to be the WoW killer, DDO just had the potential to be a solid niche game.

Re:Enquiring minds want to know... (1)

Macgrrl (762836) | more than 8 years ago | (#15997830)

Oddly enough, almost all the WoW players I know in RL have played tabletop games at some stage, many of them still play in D&D campaigns. But that could be that I have a skewed sample. My WoW guild thinks it odd when my husband and I skip a raid to play D&D.

Re:Enquiring minds want to know... (1)

Sage Gaspar (688563) | more than 8 years ago | (#15998369)

It is tough to say, but I would say you're probably part of a smaller demographic. "People that you know in real life that play WoW" is a drop in the bucket compared to even some larger guilds, let alone everyone in the game. Then again, I can't claim to know that many people out of the total number of players either.

Anyway, I think the point still stands that D&D isn't a hot MMO commodity. The basic settings and races of D&D are pretty much a page from the generic fantasy handbook. No one's going to be drawn in by a dwarf, halfling, or warforged the same way that people got drawn into SWG by Twi'leks and Zabraks. The gameplay mechanics are a bit different from most other MMOs, but not enough to make most non-diehards care.

The real draw of D&D these days would be the intimate setting and the open-endedness, in my opinion, and that is very hard to capture in an MMO. Something like Neverwinter Nights had the right idea as far as that goes. In addition, D&D hasn't seen much activity lately, at least not to draw a younger audience's attention. Compare to properties like Lord of the Rings that have experienced a revival recently.

Re:Enquiring minds want to know... (1)

chris411 (610359) | more than 8 years ago | (#15996279)

Granted, the summary wasn't exactly clear, but it was more like Turbine trying to take credit for Eberron's Warforged race, not the other way around.

Re:Enquiring minds want to know... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15997687)

MOD PARENT UP!!!! As someone who is currently (but not for much longer) funding Turdbines end of year functions and slush fund, I can back up what the OP said. The game had such promise, but with each patch gets less and less playable, and more broken. Frequent unannounced patches and so-called "hotfixes" which make servers unavailable for 5-6 hours at a time is not value for money, nor good customer service. Not happy turdbine...

Y Axis? (1)

FireIron (838223) | more than 8 years ago | (#15993805)

One thing DDO has done is maximized the use of the Y axis in all their maps, creating a true 3-D world. Who doesn't love Feather Fall?

First of all, I would argue that this is the use of the Z axis, not the Y.

Secondly, I would point out that City of Heroes has had this, including in-flight combat, for 2.5 years.

But kudos to Turbine for implementing this functionality, which was sorely lacking in Neverwinter Nights.

Re:Y Axis? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15994055)

Despite the fact that Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] disagrees with me, when I was learning three-dimensional geometry and calculus, I always was taught that Y was the up-down axis.

Re:Y Axis? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15994167)

I think it depends on context. In mathematics, the z-axis is usually the up-down axis. However, IIRC, in computer graphics, the z-axis is perpendicular to the screen (so into/out of your monitor). In that context, the y-axis would be up-down.

Re:Y Axis? (1)

revlayle (964221) | more than 8 years ago | (#15994386)

Hence the concept of z-buffering or ordering objects in a "depth plane" so to speak.

Re:Y Axis? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15999718)

Despite the fact that Wikipedia disagrees with me

Silly rabbit! Wikipedia should *never* disagree with you. The Edit button is your friend.

Re:Y Axis? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#15996229)

Yes, Y Axis ... when it comes to graphics, X and Y are the 2D screen. Z is then the depth into the screen. So in graphics terms with respect to a RPG character, they are usually moving in the X-Z plan with the Y-axis being up. Get over your pretension and realize coordinate systems move, rotate, and are relative.

And now a word from our sponsor (1)

Trails (629752) | more than 8 years ago | (#15994194)

This /. article has been brought to you by Engrish.com [engrish.com] , providing quality incomprehensible articles for over a decade!

Spoiler alert (1)

MoodyLoner (76734) | more than 8 years ago | (#15994841)

From my readings of Secrets of Xen'drik, the quori originally created the warforged, forty thousand years ago in their war with the giants.



What?

lovely... (1)

lilibat (267409) | more than 8 years ago | (#15996760)

I guess Turbine is going to claim they invented the Nazgul for LOTRO next.
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